| 00:00.05 | synic | yeah, but it's not cross-platform |
| 00:00.05 | drewbono | That's what I thought you were talking about. |
| 00:00.10 | drewbono | I'm actually just trying to pick up Cocoa right now. |
| 00:00.23 | drewbono | It's definitely not cross platform, but very cool. |
| 00:00.26 | bigdog_ut | synic you jface |
| 00:00.30 | synic | drewbono: in Objective-C ? |
| 00:00.36 | drewbono | Yeah. |
| 00:00.41 | synic | it's an odd language. |
| 00:00.45 | synic | but I dig it. |
| 00:00.55 | drewbono | I messed around with it in Java for a while, since that's my background... |
| 00:01.09 | drewbono | but every told me that if I was going to learn it, to learn Obj-C as well. |
| 00:01.18 | drewbono | Yeah, it's different, isn't it? |
| 00:01.27 | drewbono | What are you trying to do with it, synic? |
| 00:01.48 | synic | oh... just trying to make a Java app I'm writing look better when it's run on OS X |
| 00:01.59 | drewbono | Using Swing? |
| 00:02.01 | synic | yeah |
| 00:02.06 | drewbono | Swing sux. |
| 00:02.07 | drewbono | :-) |
| 00:02.13 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 00:02.14 | synic | but my current question has actually been answered. |
| 00:02.32 | synic | I like Swing |
| 00:02.34 | bigdog_ut | jface and swt |
| 00:02.43 | drewbono | Never heard of jface. |
| 00:02.50 | drewbono | You like Swing? |
| 00:03.10 | synic | I have no complaints |
| 00:03.27 | drewbono | What kind of app your writin'? |
| 00:03.42 | drewbono | s/your/you |
| 00:03.42 | synic | http://www.jbother.org |
| 00:04.26 | drewbono | sweet! |
| 00:04.54 | synic | :) |
| 00:05.20 | synic | here's the OS X package... so far |
| 00:05.25 | synic | http://www.jbother.org/JBother.zip |
| 00:06.14 | drewbono | Very cool. |
| 00:06.23 | drewbono | The OS X package looks _much_ better. :-) |
| 00:06.33 | synic | thanks :) |
| 00:06.38 | drewbono | I'm surprised by how responsive it is. |
| 00:06.47 | drewbono | Most Java apps I write with swing are slllllooooowwww... |
| 00:07.14 | synic | well, you have to make sure you do things that block, etc, in another thread |
| 00:07.23 | fungus | Is it possible to move the Preferences to the JBother menu. |
| 00:07.29 | synic | I think some programmers forget or don't know to do that. |
| 00:07.47 | synic | fungus: it is, I was working on an OS X plugin before I sold my mac. |
| 00:08.08 | synic | but... alas, I don't have a mac anymore, so I can't really keep developing it |
| 00:08.23 | drewbono | synic: How's you make the OS X package? |
| 00:08.54 | synic | I basically have the JBother.app dir in a tarball... I just untar it, move the jar to the proper place, and then zip it up. |
| 00:09.44 | drewbono | How'd you create the app though? |
| 00:10.08 | synic | I made it with JarBundler (when I still had my mac) |
| 00:11.04 | drewbono | Cool. |
| 00:11.25 | drewbono | Well if you ever need a hand, I've got a couple macs at my disposal. |
| 00:11.41 | synic | I could use someone to keep developing the OS X plugin :) |
| 00:12.25 | synic | fungus: sorry, try again :) |
| 00:13.23 | synic | I added you to the whitelis |
| 00:13.24 | synic | +t |
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| 00:29.29 | synic | xilch: penor. |
| 00:33.57 | xilch | synic: that is MISTER penor to you, sir. |
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| 03:13.30 | mindjuju_ | does anybody know how to pipe IRC around oppressive firewall? |
| 03:14.54 | wps | don't have a clue, sorry |
| 03:15.26 | mindjuju_ | bummer, not sure if i want to risk it, just got new job, just thought i'd see if there was another option |
| 03:15.48 | mindjuju_ | i wonder if it can be piped through a web server to look like a web based chat room |
| 03:16.12 | dataw0lf | it can. |
| 03:16.28 | dataw0lf | or, alternatively, http://www.buzzsurf.com/surfatwork/ |
| 03:17.35 | mindjuju_ | awesome! thnx! |
| 03:17.43 | dataw0lf | no problem. |
| 03:18.28 | dataw0lf | here's a quick one just in case you don't have the ability / time to setup proxy forwarding: http://www.metairc.org/javachat/global.php |
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| 04:57.07 | *** topic/#uphpu is Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
| 04:57.12 | mindjuju2 | this is off that metairc link that you mentioned |
| 04:57.22 | dataw0lf | right. |
| 04:57.26 | mindjuju2 | what do you think the packets off of this applet look like? |
| 04:57.37 | dataw0lf | hm. |
| 04:57.40 | dataw0lf | that's an interesting question. |
| 04:57.48 | dataw0lf | obviously, I'd have to see the applet code. |
| 04:57.48 | mindjuju2 | i mean could you tell the difference between this and AIM? |
| 04:57.59 | dataw0lf | yeah. |
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| 05:18.22 | *** topic/#uphpu is Utah PHP Users Group | uphpu.org |
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| 16:02.22 | tbye | Morning all |
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| 16:53.33 | macnewbold | morning, tbye |
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| 16:58.27 | macnewbold | morning, bigdog_ut |
| 16:58.29 | macnewbold | ~big |
| 16:58.32 | macnewbold | ~bigdog_ut |
| 16:58.34 | jbot | well, bigdog_ut is Mullet Man, a.k.a. El Perro Loco |
| 16:58.37 | bigdog_ut | whatz up |
| 16:58.40 | macnewbold | ~botsnack |
| 16:58.40 | jbot | aw, gee, macnewbold |
| 16:58.47 | macnewbold | ~jbot++ |
| 16:59.56 | bigdog_ut | ~macnewbold |
| 16:59.57 | jbot | rumour has it, macnewbold is professional up front and a party in the back |
| 17:00.08 | macnewbold | yeah, somethin' like that |
| 17:01.47 | bigdog_ut | so how is it going |
| 17:15.41 | bigdog_ut | so now everyone is working hard |
| 17:15.47 | tbye | not me... |
| 17:16.23 | tbye | I just assaulted a co-worker looking for the Paris hilton voicemail download... not exactly work safe content out there on her... lol |
| 17:23.42 | bigdog_ut | nice |
| 17:23.51 | bigdog_ut | can i get a copy of it too...mr sys admin |
| 17:24.16 | bigdog_ut | ive got to write up a document for adding users to 2 systems...very tediuos crap |
| 17:24.21 | tbye | Heh... it's his birthday... so I wrote it off as his gift. |
| 17:24.29 | bigdog_ut | but openoffice rocks |
| 17:24.34 | tbye | eek |
| 17:24.40 | tbye | My powerbook hates it. |
| 17:26.09 | bigdog_ut | oh..linux me love it |
| 17:29.01 | tbye | I do too... but have to say, I'm a pages fan these days... |
| 17:29.10 | bigdog_ut | pages/ |
| 17:29.12 | bigdog_ut | pages? |
| 17:29.27 | tbye | iWork Pages... the new Apple word processor |
| 17:29.48 | tbye | http://www.apple.com/iwork/pages/ |
| 17:30.25 | tbye | It's the Anti-Word/WordPerfect.... finally. |
| 17:32.25 | bigdog_ut | yeah i can image how good that must work out |
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| 17:32.35 | bigdog_ut | i have been tempted many times to buy a mac |
| 17:32.54 | tbye | I really like the mini mac I just bought. |
| 17:33.02 | tbye | I actually have 2... need to ebay the other. |
| 17:33.10 | bigdog_ut | how much are they again? |
| 17:33.22 | tbye | I bought the 1.42s... they're 599 |
| 17:33.32 | bigdog_ut | oh..i might have to check it out |
| 17:33.39 | bigdog_ut | i want the powerbook laptop |
| 17:34.05 | tbye | I've got a 12" that I think is great... other than I can turn it over and cook on the bottom while I'm using it... |
| 17:34.09 | tbye | pretty hot... |
| 17:34.25 | bigdog_ut | i have been looking at the 17" |
| 17:34.54 | tbye | I'm waiting for the G5 notebook... that will be the next one I buy. |
| 17:35.16 | tbye | 17 are big... |
| 17:35.23 | bigdog_ut | that one i want is like $3600 |
| 17:35.27 | tbye | but nicer than any of the windows counterparts. |
| 17:35.36 | bigdog_ut | yeah for sure |
| 17:35.48 | tbye | I lug around a dell lattitude D800 |
| 17:35.54 | tbye | I like the 15.4 wide... |
| 17:36.01 | bigdog_ut | lol...i have a gateway 17" |
| 17:36.04 | bigdog_ut | that is really nice |
| 17:36.19 | tbye | I'll probably stick to that size... as long as I can hook it up and run dual monitor mode on my LCD at home. |
| 17:36.28 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 17:37.16 | tbye | I've got a Dell 2000FP at home... which is nice because the laptop can go in the vga and the mini mac goes in teh dvi... and I can switch really easily. |
| 17:37.33 | tbye | I've got a little belkin to switch mouse and keybaord. |
| 17:38.02 | tbye | That way I can go Dell... Apple... Xbox with the keybarod and mouse. |
| 17:38.10 | tbye | keyboard even |
| 17:38.34 | bigdog_ut | belkin rocks...i have 3 of them that i use |
| 17:38.58 | tbye | Ya, I'm a huge fan of their KVMs |
| 17:39.17 | tbye | Nice video signals go through them... although I don't use it on my main boxes for video. |
| 17:39.24 | bigdog_ut | i love having it all there w/ just one monitor and devices |
| 17:39.37 | tbye | I wish they'd do a large grade one to compete with that sybex crud. |
| 17:39.51 | bigdog_ut | switch view does |
| 17:40.03 | bigdog_ut | very pricy |
| 17:40.05 | tbye | Don't know that I'm fa;miliar with them. |
| 17:40.17 | tbye | they do kvm over ethernet and the like? |
| 17:40.19 | bigdog_ut | we have a bunch of the 12 ports |
| 17:40.40 | tbye | Very cool... I need 30 ports per each of our managed hosting racks... |
| 17:41.05 | tbye | bbiab |
| 17:41.08 | bigdog_ut | we have some ether ones...that i use for my solaris boxes |
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| 18:50.07 | bigdog_ut | ~slap wps |
| 18:50.11 | jbot | ACTION slaps wps, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
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| 20:29.53 | zardinuk | anybody here know of a program I can use to check network performance on all hosts, look for bottlenecks, weak areas etc. ? |
| 20:30.57 | macnewbold | not really... can you be more specific? |
| 20:31.13 | macnewbold | usually you can look for bottlenecks by checking the throughput (Bandwidth) between two hosts |
| 20:43.46 | zardinuk | I was looking for something that tested bandwidth using ICMP packets or something |
| 20:43.58 | zardinuk | I dont want to run things from every host on the network |
| 20:58.45 | macnewbold | you can't test bandwidth using ICMP packets that I know of, but you can using the packet train technique... |
| 20:59.02 | macnewbold | it's one of a few methods for measuring available bandwidth that doesn't require you to fill up the pipe |
| 20:59.48 | macnewbold | I can't remember which tools use it, but look at netperf, iperf, ttcp, and the like, and some of them will mention that they don't require a ton of bandwidth to do the measurement |
| 21:00.25 | macnewbold | you also don't have to run things _from_ every host, as long as you don't mind running them _to_ every or many hosts on the net |
| 21:00.40 | macnewbold | bandwidth is defined over a path... so you have to have a path to measure |
| 21:01.25 | macnewbold | though if your network is pretty symmetrical, you could measure to one or two, and assume it was about the same for the rest. They probably share lots of the same important links anyway |
| 21:01.52 | macnewbold | if you know your topology and the link technology for each link, it's pretty easy to see where your bottlenecks would be most likely |
| 21:02.14 | zardinuk | those are all point to point analysis, lots of the machines are thin clients and what not I dont really want to go installing clients on all hundred machines or whatever |
| 21:02.30 | zardinuk | I can see where the errors are occuring (errors in ifconfig) |
| 21:03.23 | zardinuk | but I can't see any patterns, its just the RX packets here, the RX packets there, the TX packets here and there |
| 21:03.36 | macnewbold | that won't really help much |
| 21:03.45 | macnewbold | the interesting thing for determining bottlenecks is dropped packets |
| 21:03.54 | macnewbold | and those you usually only know about where they're getting dropped |
| 21:04.05 | zardinuk | yeah, I want to get a map with like, color codes for each segment that shows the number of errors, throughput etc. |
| 21:04.22 | macnewbold | the only "network-wide" analysis would just be a collection of point-to-point analyses |
| 21:04.30 | zardinuk | well thats the problem I'm experiencing is dropped packets |
| 21:04.32 | bigdog_ut | ntop |
| 21:04.40 | macnewbold | do you know where they're dropping, zardinuk? |
| 21:04.42 | zardinuk | NFS warnings and stuff |
| 21:04.52 | bigdog_ut | zardinuk, check out ntop |
| 21:04.56 | zardinuk | between what nodes? |
| 21:05.15 | macnewbold | between where and where, or what router/gateway/etc is dropping them |
| 21:05.25 | zardinuk | ntop is that anything like iftop? |
| 21:05.27 | macnewbold | bigdog_ut: is ntop like trafshow? i.e. top for your network? |
| 21:05.34 | bigdog_ut | y |
| 21:05.38 | macnewbold | cool |
| 21:05.55 | bigdog_ut | but gives you all kinds of stats and color codes and all that eye stuff |
| 21:06.09 | bigdog_ut | ~ntop |
| 21:06.10 | jbot | Network usage monitor. URL: http://www-serra.unipi.it/~ntop/ |
| 21:06.10 | macnewbold | ah, yeah I remember now |
| 21:06.14 | macnewbold | trafshow is the one I like |
| 21:06.15 | macnewbold | ~trafshow |
| 21:07.00 | zardinuk | I knew a guy who could create a nice map of the network using ettercap |
| 21:07.07 | zardinuk | and arp poisoning |
| 21:07.16 | zardinuk | it'd be nice of ettercap did some useful diagnostics on top of that |
| 21:07.18 | macnewbold | ~trafshow is continuously displays the information regarding packet |
| 21:07.19 | jbot | okay, macnewbold |
| 21:07.19 | macnewbold | traffic on the network. a lot like "top", but for network bandwidth |
| 21:07.43 | macnewbold | ~no, trafshow is continuously displays the information regarding packet traffic on the network. a lot like "top", but for network bandwidth |
| 21:07.49 | bigdog_ut | ntop gives you a web gui that our guys like |
| 21:08.15 | macnewbold | yeah, I didn't like it much... :) I'm a terminal kind of guy |
| 21:08.29 | bigdog_ut | yeah i figure...vim and terminal is all you need |
| 21:08.38 | bigdog_ut | i dont even run x |
| 21:08.42 | macnewbold | my next license places should be "cli4me" or something |
| 21:08.45 | macnewbold | wow |
| 21:08.47 | macnewbold | go bigdog_ut |
| 21:08.59 | macnewbold | I like to use a web browser, so I run X |
| 21:09.05 | macnewbold | graphical web browser, that is |
| 21:09.08 | zardinuk | ntop is a bigger package, could have potential, heh |
| 21:09.09 | bigdog_ut | lynx man |
| 21:09.26 | bigdog_ut | yeah and you can integrate like netflow and rrd into it |
| 21:09.28 | bigdog_ut | ~rrd |
| 21:09.31 | bigdog_ut | ~netflow |
| 21:09.33 | macnewbold | zardinuk: do you have a map of the network or not? |
| 21:09.34 | dataw0lf | anyone got the hardened-php v0.3.0 applied correctly for 4.3.10? the patch seems broken to me. |
| 21:09.38 | zardinuk | I run exceed from my windows box here, multi-windowed though |
| 21:09.46 | zardinuk | I got a map of the network in my head :) |
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| 21:09.58 | bigdog_ut | exceed...run cygwin |
| 21:10.13 | dataw0lf | what is exceed? |
| 21:10.17 | zardinuk | xfree86 is not as good as exceed IMO |
| 21:10.22 | bigdog_ut | windows x server |
| 21:10.35 | zardinuk | exceed comes with a windows display manager |
| 21:10.38 | dataw0lf | ah. |
| 21:10.47 | dataw0lf | I don't know anything about windows. |
| 21:10.48 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 21:10.55 | bigdog_ut | its nice if you have the money |
| 21:10.59 | dataw0lf | cept ctrl-alt-del |
| 21:11.13 | zardinuk | bigdog_ut: you want it for free? ;) |
| 21:11.33 | bigdog_ut | i can get copies but i dont use it anymore |
| 21:11.34 | zardinuk | I bought a license a long time ago, they keep coming out with new releases that offer one or two useless gizmos |
| 21:11.44 | bigdog_ut | i used it when i worked for enterasys networks |
| 21:11.49 | zardinuk | saw version 9.0 on a bittorrent site one time |
| 21:12.15 | bigdog_ut | it is nice though...but i stick with cygwin for that now |
| 21:12.28 | macnewbold | zardinuk: that network map in your head? That will work... or draw it in xfig or something (roughly). it's usually pretty easy to tell where the bottlenecks occur |
| 21:12.40 | macnewbold | a) at the router/gateway between your clients and your servers |
| 21:12.58 | macnewbold | b) where lots of high-bw cnxns meet lower bw-cnxns |
| 21:12.58 | bigdog_ut | jbot bottlenecks are virus on windows |
| 21:12.59 | jbot | bigdog_ut: okay |
| 21:13.06 | bigdog_ut | ~bottlenecks |
| 21:13.07 | jbot | bottlenecks are virus on windows |
| 21:13.07 | macnewbold | c) on your servers |
| 21:13.17 | zardinuk | I wouldn't be surprised if its a faulty power cable spewing RFI or something |
| 21:13.45 | bigdog_ut | anyone ever do any spider or bot program? |
| 21:14.58 | macnewbold | bigdog_ut: I have messed around with some of that stuff before... what are you working on? |
| 21:15.14 | bigdog_ut | a good book on writing them or theory on it |
| 21:15.27 | macnewbold | hm |
| 21:17.37 | dataw0lf | none of you guys have had any problems with the hardened-php dev version huh? |
| 21:18.46 | zardinuk | have not tried it |
| 21:18.47 | bigdog_ut | nope |
| 21:20.14 | dataw0lf | bleh, who needs to development version anyways. |
| 21:20.18 | dataw0lf | s/to/the |
| 21:20.28 | macnewbold | never tried it, dataw0lf... what does hardened do? |
| 21:20.43 | zardinuk | so dataw0lf: have you seen magnolia? |
| 21:20.54 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: hardened-php.org |
| 21:20.57 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: yeah. |
| 21:21.08 | zardinuk | care to explain that one to me? :) |
| 21:21.15 | zardinuk | biggest wtf ever |
| 21:21.18 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: the movie? |
| 21:21.23 | zardinuk | yeah |
| 21:21.39 | zardinuk | i sortof watched it last night, started playing with my puter halfway through it |
| 21:22.30 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: you have to get all the connections between the separate characters first. |
| 21:22.57 | dataw0lf | zardinuk: and the end is a throwback to the Bible, if I'm not mistaken. |
| 21:22.59 | zardinuk | ... as I cursed the blockbuster employee that put it on the employee recommends list |
| 21:24.10 | zardinuk | yeah I noticed they were all connected in some way, but what was the point? |
| 21:24.37 | dataw0lf | basically, the 'theme' and/or 'meaning' of the movie was regrets and responsibilities. |
| 21:24.41 | dataw0lf | basically, you can't change the past. |
| 21:24.55 | macnewbold | so dataw0lf, you paranoid, or what? |
| 21:25.19 | dataw0lf | macnewbold: how so? |
| 21:25.36 | zardinuk | eh, I noticed that... but it seemed like it was shooting for something deeper, oh well |
| 21:25.42 | macnewbold | the stuff that hardened php does seems kind of paranoid |
| 21:26.02 | macnewbold | protecting yourself against your own stupidity, or something... |
| 21:26.05 | zardinuk | hardened php accounts for careless contributors |
| 21:26.12 | macnewbold | but I geuss there are a lot of dumb php coders out there |
| 21:26.23 | macnewbold | or ones who are careless, ignorant, lazy, etc. |
| 21:26.27 | zardinuk | I got hit by a worm one time that got in through the webserver because of a broken openssl library |
| 21:26.41 | zardinuk | youd be surprised |
| 21:27.28 | dataw0lf | I just like to keep abreast of security. The company I keep make me somewhat paranoid, I guess. |
| 21:30.28 | macnewbold | yeah, that may be |
| 21:30.59 | macnewbold | my servers don't typically run any php code other than my own, so I guess I'm not as worried as I would be if there was lots of unreputable code running on it |
| 21:31.59 | dataw0lf | I'm just a firm believer of better safe than sorry. |
| 21:34.20 | zardinuk | hardened PHP wont do anything for your PHP code though, its hardening the C++ |
| 21:34.37 | dataw0lf | right. |
| 21:42.14 | *** join/#uphpu drewbono (~andrew@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 22:07.37 | *** join/#uphpu bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.34.182) |
| 22:07.37 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o bigdog_ut] by ChanServ |
| 22:14.31 | zardinuk | i need one of these $10,000 network testers |
| 22:22.37 | bigdog_ut | yeah like an ixia |
| 22:28.41 | tbye | ixia uggh.... |
| 22:29.13 | tbye | I worked for a Last mile fiber gear shop... I learned to loathe the ixia |
| 22:35.30 | *** part/#uphpu tbye (~tbye@67.51.216.61) |
| 22:47.24 | macnewbold | ~google +why reply-to list OR harmful |
| 22:47.44 | macnewbold | that first one is great... |
| 22:48.00 | macnewbold | all about why mailing lists should never change the Reply-To header |
| 22:48.04 | macnewbold | it's bad and evil |
| 22:48.31 | wps | that's why I don't on uphpu |
| 22:48.41 | wps | seems like most don't agree with me though |
| 22:56.43 | macnewbold | no, the only ones who speak up are the ones that don't agree |
| 22:57.10 | macnewbold | everyone else likes the way it is, so there's no need to say anything :) |
| 23:33.00 | wps | yeah |
| 23:59.36 | xilch|w | dataw0lf: the company you keep? is that because they are paranoid and it rubs off, or they like to do mean things, so it makes you paranoid? |