| 00:07.44 | *** join/#uphpu drewbono (~andrew@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 00:08.40 | *** part/#uphpu mindjuju (~mindjuju@63.226.104.67) |
| 00:17.22 | *** join/#uphpu spiderbiter (~spiderbit@38.119.177.194) |
| 00:38.30 | *** join/#uphpu drewbono (~andrew@byu176783wks.rn.byu.edu) |
| 01:39.20 | *** join/#uphpu bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@65-100-196-120.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 01:39.20 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o bigdog_ut] by ChanServ |
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| 02:00.58 | bigdog_ut | evenin' all |
| 02:02.30 | synic|h | hey bigdog_ut |
| 02:09.19 | spiderbiter | yo bigdog_ut! |
| 02:09.30 | bigdog_ut | how u guys doing |
| 02:10.12 | spiderbiter | can I just say "I love now()" in mysql? |
| 02:10.22 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 02:10.37 | spiderbiter | never used it with frustration |
| 02:10.42 | spiderbiter | always there for me |
| 02:10.56 | bigdog_ut | yeah...mysql has many cool functions |
| 02:11.19 | bigdog_ut | but then again if u use pgsql you can write your own functions |
| 02:11.31 | spiderbiter | that would be really cool |
| 02:11.40 | spiderbiter | I can't wait to start doing that |
| 02:12.43 | spiderbiter | In the meantime I'll bask in the simple beauty of "WHERE now() BETWEEN t.start AND t.end;" |
| 02:12.56 | dataw0lf | pgsql rocks |
| 02:13.20 | spiderbiter | I've installed pg, but haven't given it a good go yet |
| 02:13.52 | spiderbiter | I think I'm gonna recommend it on another project I have on the horizon |
| 02:15.04 | dataw0lf | I'm a huge postgres guy. |
| 02:18.29 | bigdog_ut | spiderbiter, make sure u are familiar with it |
| 02:18.42 | bigdog_ut | if you need a simple db mysql is good or sqllite |
| 02:18.49 | bigdog_ut | sometimes a db can be an overkill |
| 02:18.59 | dataw0lf | word |
| 02:19.00 | bigdog_ut | u could even use db4 too |
| 02:19.21 | bigdog_ut | unless you have really complex data structures i would really look at what u are doing |
| 02:21.20 | bigdog_ut | cause many devs dont realize that adding a db is a whole additional layer that must be accessed when sometimes you can just get it out of files |
| 02:21.35 | spiderbiter | the project I have on the horizon (ever so) will be (if ever) very data intensive |
| 02:22.14 | bigdog_ut | pgsql i am using for a huge project and it gives me some killer features with domains, pl/pgsql, and some functions |
| 02:22.21 | bigdog_ut | and transaction |
| 02:22.34 | spiderbiter | but either way I plan to add it to the skill set |
| 02:23.01 | bigdog_ut | yeah a good move...also i would add oracle too |
| 02:23.06 | bigdog_ut | you cant go wrong with that |
| 02:25.21 | dataw0lf | LAMP! |
| 02:25.32 | dataw0lf | Multi threaded! |
| 02:25.46 | dataw0lf | Gay! |
| 02:25.47 | bigdog_ut | php multi will be good someday |
| 02:25.50 | dataw0lf | Some buzzwords for you. |
| 02:26.20 | spiderbiter | thanks dataw0lf, now combine the two contexts |
| 02:26.25 | dataw0lf | Yeah, but the majority of guys who talk about multi threading are just inserting 'intelligent' words into their conversation. |
| 02:27.36 | bigdog_ut | like me |
| 02:28.18 | dataw0lf | psh, no I'm talking about the guys at Best Buy who've got an A+ certification and think they know something. |
| 02:28.50 | bigdog_ut | i do work @ Best Buy |
| 02:29.03 | bigdog_ut | Ass. Manager BigDog |
| 02:29.46 | dataw0lf | please say you're lying. |
| 02:29.59 | bigdog_ut | i am the ass. manager |
| 02:30.02 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 02:30.32 | bigdog_ut | unfortunately i am a corp. pee on |
| 02:31.13 | dataw0lf | Sellout! |
| 02:31.42 | bigdog_ut | i know |
| 02:31.48 | bigdog_ut | but i get paid |
| 02:31.51 | dataw0lf | True that. |
| 02:31.59 | bigdog_ut | and i cant give it up |
| 02:32.07 | bigdog_ut | hopefully this new proj will be good for me |
| 02:34.33 | dataw0lf | yeah, new projects really help refresh you. |
| 02:36.27 | bigdog_ut | i hate to say it but i am getting tired of php right now |
| 02:36.54 | dataw0lf | I _got_ sick of it, now I'm getting back into it. |
| 02:37.16 | tierra|w | same here... but mostly since I'm getting sick of C++ |
| 02:37.36 | bigdog_ut | yeah i am doing more ui app stuff now which i have not done in 4 yrs |
| 02:37.53 | dataw0lf | I haven't ever done much UI stuff. |
| 02:38.26 | bigdog_ut | yeah i am working with glade |
| 02:38.34 | bigdog_ut | gnome and gtk+ |
| 02:38.58 | dataw0lf | yeah, I've done some gtk+ programming before. |
| 02:39.01 | dataw0lf | Just not too much. |
| 02:39.15 | bigdog_ut | it is okay |
| 02:39.28 | bigdog_ut | learning it sucks...but after a few months it will be okay |
| 02:39.45 | dataw0lf | can't argue with PyGTK it's pretty nice. |
| 02:40.54 | bigdog_ut | that is cool |
| 02:41.09 | bigdog_ut | i want to get into it after this project |
| 02:54.02 | *** join/#uphpu tierra|w_ (~tierra@dsl093-225-126.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 02:56.56 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith (~jsmith@smithfam.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 02:57.42 | bigdog_ut | oh...nice to see you again |
| 02:57.50 | spiderbiter | welcome back |
| 03:00.13 | synic|h | jsmith, all that md5 stuff make sense yet? |
| 03:00.18 | *** join/#uphpu tierra|w (~tierra@dsl093-225-126.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:01.24 | synic|h | or at least the salt part |
| 03:03.37 | *** join/#uphpu Lone_Wanderer (~chatzilla@64.122.31.10) |
| 03:04.42 | Lone_Wanderer | What do folks here know about Media Rain? |
| 03:05.09 | spiderbiter | bigdog_ut, I imagine Ass. Manager could be a rewarding title outside of retail ... and fast food ... and uh, Utah |
| 03:05.13 | synic|h | never heard of it. |
| 03:08.07 | spiderbiter | Lone_Wanderer, I bet they are looking for a code monkey |
| 03:08.31 | spiderbiter | typical of a high-design shop ... |
| 03:08.42 | spiderbiter | thats based on years of experience programming in the advertising industry |
| 03:08.50 | Lone_Wanderer | what do you mean, spiderbiter? |
| 03:09.25 | spiderbiter | It's the form Vs. function dilema |
| 03:10.20 | spiderbiter | that evironment almost always rewards form over function |
| 03:10.30 | Lone_Wanderer | *nods* |
| 03:11.02 | Lone_Wanderer | Then again, their CEO did get the 4th highest score, nationally, on Brainbench's Flash test |
| 03:11.44 | dataw0lf | what's that? another lame IQ test? |
| 03:12.00 | Lone_Wanderer | well, you know brainbench.com I'm assuming |
| 03:12.13 | Lone_Wanderer | and Flash is Macromedia's product of Strong Bad fame |
| 03:12.44 | dataw0lf | ah, a quiz on Flash? |
| 03:12.55 | dataw0lf | had to recite his alphabet, and do some basic division, I'm assuming. |
| 03:12.58 | Lone_Wanderer | a quiz whose subject matter is flash, if that's what you mean |
| 03:13.05 | Lone_Wanderer | not necessarily a quiz written in flash |
| 03:13.45 | *** join/#uphpu jsmith (~jsmith@smithfam.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:13.55 | dataw0lf | Right, I understand. |
| 03:14.02 | Lone_Wanderer | just wanted to clarify |
| 03:14.04 | dataw0lf | thus, the sarcasm for a 'Flash Quiz' |
| 03:14.24 | Lone_Wanderer | *nods* |
| 03:14.59 | spiderbiter | Lone_Wanderer, I know nothing about them, but I'd caution anyone going into that environment that it is probably not programmer friendly |
| 03:15.12 | Lone_Wanderer | anyway, just wanted to see what the general consensus is |
| 03:15.48 | spiderbiter | a position like that can easily turn washing dishes at sizzler into something appealing .. |
| 03:16.06 | dataw0lf | I'd probably cry if I had to develop in a Flash Stronghold (tm) |
| 03:16.07 | Lone_Wanderer | :) |
| 03:16.34 | spiderbiter | but then again, some people might like that environment |
| 03:16.42 | spiderbiter | I'd say it takes the right person |
| 03:17.02 | dataw0lf | A Flash friendly sorta person, I guess. |
| 03:17.07 | dataw0lf | Never knew what the appeal of Flash was. |
| 03:17.17 | Lone_Wanderer | you can do stuff with it that you can't with html |
| 03:17.24 | Lone_Wanderer | like... animate things |
| 03:17.36 | dataw0lf | Yeah, I guess. |
| 03:17.38 | jsmith | Flash is a tool, just like a flashlight is a tool... Flashlights are handy where hammers are not. |
| 03:17.50 | jsmith | But for other tasks, a hammer is better. |
| 03:18.20 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm considering using it for a game I'm going to write Real Soon Now (tm) where moving around the map would be a pain if you had to wait for it to reload with every move |
| 03:18.21 | dataw0lf | Um, no. Flash is like the uber super cool flashlight that outputs 23000 watts that everyone wants to have, but is really not very useful when you actually think about it's purpose. |
| 03:19.20 | dataw0lf | Sure, it's flashy and everyone thinks it's cool. But when developing an actual functional website, it just gets in the way. And you wish you had your little maglite again. |
| 03:19.22 | jsmith | No, it's useful for certain things. |
| 03:19.36 | jsmith | And yes, I've written in flash for several websites before. |
| 03:19.51 | jsmith | Is it my favorite tool in my toolbox, no. But is it useful, yes. |
| 03:19.55 | Lone_Wanderer | actually, you can do quite a lot of things with Flash that you can't do in straight html |
| 03:19.57 | spiderbiter | If you like take pride in the logic of your programming, well written code and standards compliance then a small, visually aggresive design shop is not the best place for you |
| 03:20.34 | jsmith | I'll agree with that statement. |
| 03:20.50 | Lone_Wanderer | you can do a lot of things with it that are flat out stupid, but name a technology that that isn't true of |
| 03:21.06 | dataw0lf | Ugh, I'd just never use Flash. Ever. Same thing with Java. I'm just a very biased person. |
| 03:21.10 | spiderbiter | if you like being a neccessary player in some cool and sylish visual designs then you might like it |
| 03:21.25 | jsmith | dataw0lf: Yes, you seem to be, from what little I've heard you say |
| 03:21.34 | dataw0lf | I've never been one for 'OMGZ THE WEBSITE IS UBER COOLZ' Sorry, I go for straight functionality. |
| 03:21.42 | spiderbiter | but you will not be as openly rewarded as the designers if at all |
| 03:21.49 | Lone_Wanderer | the thing is, dataw0lf , there are other things that duplicate the functionality of Java. nothing duplicates the functionality of flash. |
| 03:22.04 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Sure, java applets. |
| 03:22.30 | dataw0lf | You can do some seriously graphical intense javascript too. |
| 03:22.39 | Lone_Wanderer | java applets duplicate the functionality of flash, or you can't duplicate java applets with anything else? |
| 03:23.09 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: You can do the same flashy crap with java applets and javascript that you can do with Flash. |
| 03:23.13 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 03:23.37 | spiderbiter | but not as well typically |
| 03:23.51 | spiderbiter | flash is optimised for motion graphics |
| 03:24.20 | spiderbiter | but java gives you the fine grain control |
| 03:24.59 | dataw0lf | Well, I've never used either, and don't plan to. |
| 03:25.19 | dataw0lf | My point is, if you are developing a commercial website for functionality, y'know, like a useful website, neither is needed. |
| 03:25.29 | Lone_Wanderer | might it not be better to avoid making authoritative statements regarding technology you've never used? |
| 03:25.44 | dataw0lf | Not really, that's how I am. |
| 03:25.51 | dataw0lf | I know alot about it, I just don't use it. |
| 03:26.03 | spiderbiter | LOL |
| 03:26.26 | spiderbiter | we're back to Form Vs. Function |
| 03:26.30 | dataw0lf | And I can argue the finer points of things I don't even touch and still win. |
| 03:26.57 | dataw0lf | I thought Flash would die around 2000-2001, apparently I was wrong. |
| 03:27.13 | dataw0lf | But at least every site and their mom stopped using it like they were in, what was it, 98 or 99 ? |
| 03:27.15 | spiderbiter | and "FLASH"y form has it's demand |
| 03:28.03 | dataw0lf | The whole problem with Flash is that you're going excessively for Form over function. |
| 03:28.12 | dataw0lf | I'd argue the point if they were switched too. |
| 03:28.14 | Lone_Wanderer | you don't have to |
| 03:28.14 | spiderbiter | but the people who respect the form usually don't respect the function ... and that the side the programmer will be on |
| 03:29.04 | Lone_Wanderer | it's entirely possible to build a site using Flash that is based entirely on function and only uses Flash because some of the functionality required isn't present in straight html |
| 03:29.09 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: Flash, in and of itself, is not acceptable in a validation way. |
| 03:29.30 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: cause you're screwing those who have a slow connection and/or don't have the Flash plugin. |
| 03:29.33 | Lone_Wanderer | just because Flash is overwhelmingly used poorly doesn't make Flash itself bad |
| 03:29.45 | Lone_Wanderer | 98% of browsers have flash |
| 03:29.48 | spiderbiter | True! |
| 03:30.04 | dataw0lf | only 50% of the country has broadband. |
| 03:30.12 | Lone_Wanderer | swf's are usually small |
| 03:30.28 | dataw0lf | I've seen some wicked load times on form over function websites. |
| 03:30.36 | spiderbiter | And a capable flash programmer can make flash stream nicely |
| 03:30.45 | Lone_Wanderer | you can make a site that takes forever to load with straight HTML, and you can make one that loads very fast using FLash |
| 03:30.49 | dataw0lf | If you can't do it in CSS / XHTML, you should figure out a different approach, is my feeling. |
| 03:30.50 | Lone_Wanderer | s/L/l/ |
| 03:31.17 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: I don't see what you're talking about a site that takes forever to load in straight HTML |
| 03:31.24 | dataw0lf | unless you're talking about a site that is one HUGE file. |
| 03:31.31 | Lone_Wanderer | a site, a page, whatever |
| 03:31.35 | dataw0lf | and that isn't functional either. |
| 03:31.44 | Lone_Wanderer | so wait |
| 03:31.55 | dataw0lf | I'd like to see these straight HTML sites that take forever to load. |
| 03:31.59 | Lone_Wanderer | are we talking about functionality vs. form, or are we talking about flash vs. CSS/XHTML? |
| 03:32.06 | Lone_Wanderer | let's pick one and stick with it |
| 03:32.34 | dataw0lf | I was just throwing in my two cents. |
| 03:32.52 | dataw0lf | And focusing your skillset on a company based technology isn't a good idea either. |
| 03:33.27 | spiderbiter | I've seen both sides of the fence plenty and I think I can offer a reasonably objective view |
| 03:33.54 | Lone_Wanderer | I think you're being unreasonably closed-minded regarding the usefulness of flash. |
| 03:33.54 | spiderbiter | if anyone gives a damn |
| 03:33.59 | Lone_Wanderer | I do, spiderbiter |
| 03:34.22 | dataw0lf | That's me. Unreasonably closed-minded. |
| 03:34.30 | Lone_Wanderer | well, as long as you're willing to admit it |
| 03:34.35 | spiderbiter | LOL |
| 03:34.44 | dataw0lf | As I obviously am. |
| 03:34.59 | Lone_Wanderer | so what were you going to say, spider? |
| 03:35.51 | spiderbiter | Lone_Wanderer, flash is valued by a different audience than the CSS/XHTML advocates |
| 03:36.12 | spiderbiter | and the reasons are obvious |
| 03:36.18 | Lone_Wanderer | yes |
| 03:36.19 | spiderbiter | different goals |
| 03:36.22 | dataw0lf | a totally different audience. |
| 03:36.44 | Lone_Wanderer | but if you need to do something that only flash offers |
| 03:36.49 | Lone_Wanderer | ... |
| 03:36.56 | spiderbiter | now, a lot of major companies used to jump on the flash wagon |
| 03:37.01 | dataw0lf | I don't see in a functional way how Flash offers anything. |
| 03:37.11 | dataw0lf | Examples, please? |
| 03:37.17 | spiderbiter | until they saw the wisdom of the standards advocates |
| 03:37.26 | dataw0lf | ie, more customers visiting site. |
| 03:37.58 | dataw0lf | But, I really want to hear how Flash does something *functionally* over everything else. |
| 03:38.04 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm thinking :p |
| 03:38.21 | dataw0lf | Well, heh, I can help you out: it doesn't. Form wise, yes, Flash is pretty. |
| 03:38.22 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't know anything about Flash, having never made anything with it, so give me a second |
| 03:38.50 | spiderbiter | it has taken a lot of effort from the accessibility advocated and the standards advocates to earn the respect due to the technological viability/possibility/future maintainability of the web |
| 03:38.51 | Lone_Wanderer | but I don't think you could recreate, for example, the strong bad email cartoons without Flash |
| 03:39.04 | dataw0lf | That's not functionality. |
| 03:39.11 | spiderbiter | BINGO! |
| 03:39.24 | Lone_Wanderer | if it's not functionality, what is it? |
| 03:39.30 | spiderbiter | Form over function |
| 03:39.46 | spiderbiter | Flash is to entertain and enhance |
| 03:39.56 | Lone_Wanderer | so how is having a moving cartoon, with sound, not a function? |
| 03:39.57 | dataw0lf | Not to perform anything 'functional' |
| 03:40.28 | Lone_Wanderer | how do you define functional? |
| 03:40.32 | dataw0lf | I think you are confused. That is 'form'. Art. |
| 03:40.39 | Lone_Wanderer | flash does stuff that html doesn't |
| 03:40.46 | dataw0lf | Obviously. |
| 03:40.52 | Lone_Wanderer | if something "does" something, how is that not a function? |
| 03:41.20 | dataw0lf | I am talking about something that is applicable to any type of dynamic site. IE, affecting user input, sorting through a flat file or SQL db, etc. |
| 03:41.33 | dataw0lf | These are 'functional' |
| 03:41.34 | Lone_Wanderer | you can sort through a flat file with html? |
| 03:41.36 | spiderbiter | dataw0lf, did you look at the mediarain site? |
| 03:41.51 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: No, that's why I use server side programming to complement my html / css. |
| 03:42.02 | Lone_Wanderer | but that's not html, that's (probably) php |
| 03:42.18 | dataw0lf | Yes, and it's not dependent on the client. That's the whole point. |
| 03:42.30 | Lone_Wanderer | but you *can* sort through flat files with Flash |
| 03:42.49 | Lone_Wanderer | (I'd hate anyone who did, but it's possible) |
| 03:42.52 | dataw0lf | that would be rather stupid seeing as it is a client side application. ie, the cliet runs it. |
| 03:43.03 | synic|h | what is the purpose of flash or java applets? |
| 03:43.04 | Lone_Wanderer | what if you need to parse a file on the client's system? |
| 03:43.25 | synic|h | what were they made for? |
| 03:43.46 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: that would be server side. |
| 03:43.47 | Lone_Wanderer | sure, you could just have them upload it, but what if it's a massive file, they have a slow connection, and you only need a tiny little bit of the file, but you don't know until run time which part you need? |
| 03:44.42 | dataw0lf | Lone_Wanderer: that sounds like a rather nonsensical thing to do. And, you're stating something that has severe drawbacks compared to server side handling. |
| 03:44.50 | dataw0lf | ie, the client has full control. |
| 03:44.57 | Lone_Wanderer | might it not then make sense (in this admittedly hypothetical situation, with these admittedly nonsensical constraints) to use flash to parse the file? |
| 03:45.09 | Lone_Wanderer | all I'm saying is that Flash has functionality that HTML doesn't |
| 03:45.21 | Lone_Wanderer | which I don't think anyone can sanely argue against |
| 03:45.34 | dataw0lf | They are two different things, you CANNOT compare them. Please stop doing it. If you want, compare it to some type of scripting language, server side or client side. |
| 03:45.45 | synic|h | a car has the functionality to drive into a tree. That doesn't mean you should use it. |
| 03:45.46 | dataw0lf | HTML is in a completely different realm from Flash. |
| 03:45.48 | Lone_Wanderer | durh |
| 03:46.05 | dataw0lf | And I don't think anyone would argue that Flash replaces HTML, really. |
| 03:46.10 | dataw0lf | since you still have to embed it into the HTML |
| 03:46.24 | Lone_Wanderer | which is what I've been saying - namely, that Flash can do things that HTML can't |
| 03:46.28 | dataw0lf | I think you might be confused as to what HTML is. |
| 03:46.46 | Lone_Wanderer | which is just another way of saying that Flash provides functionality that HTML does not |
| 03:46.51 | dataw0lf | brb need a smoke. |
| 03:46.55 | Lone_Wanderer | which for some reason you're unwilling to admit |
| 03:46.57 | dataw0lf | heh, synic, could you take over for a sec. |
| 03:47.55 | Lone_Wanderer | he probably doesn't want to get in on the losing side of an argument |
| 03:48.22 | synic|h | I just think using flash and java applets are pointless. |
| 03:48.35 | synic|h | they are both slow compared to a native app |
| 03:48.51 | Lone_Wanderer | I never said that using them is wise or to be recommended |
| 03:49.00 | synic|h | if you're going to do something that HTML and javascript can't do, you should make a downloadable application. |
| 03:49.02 | Lone_Wanderer | leastwise if I did I didn't mean to. |
| 03:49.26 | dataw0lf | whoa. |
| 03:49.29 | dataw0lf | I don't lose. |
| 03:49.47 | dataw0lf | you are trying to compare HTML and Flash and I think you've confused yourself. |
| 03:50.13 | dataw0lf | Flash is and always will be, a 'Form over Function' appliance. |
| 03:50.17 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't get emotionally involved in arguments on irc ;) |
| 03:50.25 | synic|h | I personally hate sites that have java applets or Flash. They don't help me get information or browse the site. They just slow my browser down. |
| 03:50.41 | dataw0lf | There is no type of site that isn't focusing on Form over Function that will benefit from Flash. |
| 03:50.47 | Lone_Wanderer | That is a statement of a different order than "Flash is useless" |
| 03:51.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Flash provides functionality that HTML does not. |
| 03:51.12 | dataw0lf | Flash makes something prettier. |
| 03:51.14 | dataw0lf | That's what Flash does. |
| 03:51.15 | synic|h | so does C or C++. |
| 03:51.18 | dataw0lf | It spices up life. |
| 03:51.41 | synic|h | so if we decide that flash on the web has no purpose, then it doesn't matter whether or not it provides functionality over html |
| 03:52.05 | Lone_Wanderer | "There is no type of site that isn't focusing on Form over Function that will benefit from Flash" cannot be proven to be true |
| 03:52.28 | dataw0lf | Ok, you find a site that could benefit from Flash, and not in a graphical/artsy way, and I'll give you a cookie. |
| 03:52.54 | Lone_Wanderer | because you can't prove that there isn't a site somewhere, in some corporate intranet, which meets the requirements you just stated |
| 03:53.04 | dataw0lf | Because there isn't. |
| 03:53.05 | Lone_Wanderer | Proving a negative is a very, very difficult thing to do. |
| 03:53.17 | dataw0lf | Just give me an example. |
| 03:53.25 | dataw0lf | Of how it would benefit from that. |
| 03:53.44 | Lone_Wanderer | simple: Flash provides functionality that HTML does not. |
| 03:53.45 | dataw0lf | And don't give me that crap about parsing a file client-side, there are better ways to do that too (and MUCH MUCH safer ways) |
| 03:53.59 | dataw0lf | Bah, you're repeating yourself. |
| 03:54.04 | spiderbiter | datawolf, you would be pretty hard pressed to find a very entertaining site without it |
| 03:54.05 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't say that there were no better ways to do it. All I said is that you *can* do it with Flash, but you can't with HTML. |
| 03:54.10 | dataw0lf | Just show me a site that you've done that Flash has helped out. |
| 03:54.27 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm not saying that such a site exists; I'm saying that such a site is possible. |
| 03:54.32 | synic|h | Lone_Wanderer, flash doesn't provide any functionality over html that a competent language wouldn't provide. |
| 03:54.36 | dataw0lf | Please, stop comparing Flash with HTML, you really aren't getting any point across, because they are incomparable. |
| 03:54.44 | spiderbiter | you can imagine burly gun slinger types being giddy over the gun configurator the MediaRain built |
| 03:54.46 | spiderbiter | http://www.christensenarms.com/buildyourownrifle.swf |
| 03:54.47 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm not getting a point across because you aren't listening. |
| 03:55.13 | dataw0lf | I'm listening. I just don't agree with your comparisons, they make no sense. |
| 03:55.20 | Lone_Wanderer | There is a simple fact here that for some reason you're not willing to acknowledge, which is that Flash does things that HTML doesn't. |
| 03:55.54 | Lone_Wanderer | Which really should be obvious, because if it didn't why would Macromedia have made Flash in the first place? |
| 03:55.58 | dataw0lf | Everything on the web does things HTML doesn't. HTML is static, guy. You can't compare them. |
| 03:56.09 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm not comparing them. |
| 03:56.09 | spiderbiter | and I bet that flash gun configurator gets the attention that the client payed for |
| 03:56.15 | dataw0lf | Yes you are comparing them. |
| 03:56.23 | dataw0lf | You're saying that Flash does things HTML doesn't. That is a comparison. |
| 03:56.27 | dataw0lf | www.dictionary.com |
| 03:56.38 | spiderbiter | Good hell, guys ... I'm out! |
| 03:56.42 | dataw0lf | word |
| 03:56.44 | Lone_Wanderer | okay, I am comparing them |
| 03:56.44 | dataw0lf | cya spiderbiter |
| 03:56.49 | Lone_Wanderer | see ya spider |
| 03:57.25 | dataw0lf | dataw0lf.org tell me how much more 'functional' that website would be if I used Flash. |
| 03:57.30 | spiderbiter | well, not "out" |
| 03:57.34 | Lone_Wanderer | No. |
| 03:57.48 | Lone_Wanderer | You may not need any functionality that HTML doesn't provide. |
| 03:57.54 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't see what the big deal is. |
| 03:58.04 | Lone_Wanderer | All I'm doing is making a true statement. |
| 03:58.05 | dataw0lf | HTML |
| 03:58.06 | dataw0lf | is |
| 03:58.08 | dataw0lf | completely |
| 03:58.09 | dataw0lf | different |
| 03:58.18 | Lone_Wanderer | Yes, it is. |
| 03:58.21 | dataw0lf | Compare Flash to a scripting language, like I said before, there is no comparison. |
| 03:58.26 | dataw0lf | then stop comparing them. |
| 03:58.27 | Lone_Wanderer | I agree with you completely that HTML is completely different from Flash. |
| 03:58.35 | dataw0lf | then you cannot compare them. |
| 03:58.40 | Lone_Wanderer | of course you can |
| 03:58.43 | dataw0lf | Just like you can't compare, C and Javascript. |
| 03:58.45 | Lone_Wanderer | any two things can be compared |
| 03:58.57 | dataw0lf | Well, you can't compare them without looking like an idiot. |
| 03:59.06 | dataw0lf | Apparently you don't try to avoid that like I do. |
| 03:59.17 | Lone_Wanderer | what am I saying that's not true? |
| 03:59.35 | Lone_Wanderer | There is one statement I'm making in this argument, and for some reason you're not willing to acknowledge that it's true. |
| 03:59.52 | dataw0lf | it's not that I don't want to acknowledge that it's true, I just want you to sound intelligent. |
| 04:00.10 | dataw0lf | I've been reiterating this for a while now. |
| 04:00.20 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess I don't think that saying "Flash does things that HTML doesn't do" sounds stupid. |
| 04:00.23 | dataw0lf | but you won't change the 'Flash versus HTML' argument. |
| 04:00.31 | Lone_Wanderer | it's not a versus question |
| 04:00.53 | Lone_Wanderer | In fact, I think it sounds like something an informed, intelligent person would say. |
| 04:01.14 | dataw0lf | No, it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about, honestly. |
| 04:01.26 | Lone_Wanderer | because in order to formulate a statement like that you'd have to be moderately fluent in English and well versed in both HTML and Flash. |
| 04:01.50 | Lone_Wanderer | Do you know what an ad hominem attack is, datawolf? |
| 04:02.07 | dataw0lf | Yes, I do. |
| 04:02.35 | Lone_Wanderer | then why are you making them? |
| 04:03.03 | dataw0lf | I'm not! I just want you to make a good argument. All you're doing is comparing something that shouldn't be compared. |
| 04:03.04 | Lone_Wanderer | because when I'm arguing with someone and they start making ad hominem attacks, it makes me think that they've run out of things to say about the subject at hand |
| 04:03.16 | dataw0lf | it's like you saying 'My car does things better than your shoes' |
| 04:03.22 | dataw0lf | yet you won't give any examples of it. |
| 04:03.23 | Lone_Wanderer | No. |
| 04:03.30 | Lone_Wanderer | I didn't say Flash does anything better than anything else. |
| 04:03.43 | dataw0lf | ok, 'My car provides functionality that your shoes don't' |
| 04:03.52 | Lone_Wanderer | and a car does, in fact, do things that shoes don't |
| 04:03.56 | dataw0lf | There's no point in making the argument, they are two completely different things. |
| 04:04.10 | dataw0lf | Right, and if someone said that to you, you'd be like 'are you an idiot?' |
| 04:04.13 | Lone_Wanderer | well, not completely different. you can use both a car and shoes to get around. |
| 04:04.17 | dataw0lf | 'how about you compare your shoes to my shoes' |
| 04:04.28 | Lone_Wanderer | because there's no reason to compare html to itself |
| 04:04.36 | dataw0lf | oh, man. |
| 04:04.45 | Lone_Wanderer | maybe comparing html to xml or to xhtml would make sense |
| 04:04.53 | dataw0lf | trying to keep this guy on track reminds me of Spiderman 2 when Spiderman tried to stop the train. |
| 04:05.02 | Lone_Wanderer | or comparing html 1.0 to html 4.whatever it's at now |
| 04:05.07 | dataw0lf | No, but comparing Flash to a scripting language (hint hint) might be a start. |
| 04:05.21 | dataw0lf | XHTML 1.0, guy. |
| 04:05.23 | Lone_Wanderer | why? you're the one who started out by saying that Flash does nothing HTML can't |
| 04:05.41 | dataw0lf | No, I said that there was no reason Flash should be used other than a Form over Function purpose. |
| 04:06.54 | dataw0lf | What I said, and let me quote, was : I don't see in a functional way how Flash offers anything. |
| 04:07.10 | dataw0lf | Now, sure, Flash has 'uses'. |
| 04:07.16 | dataw0lf | In 'Form' and 'design' terms. |
| 04:07.20 | dataw0lf | but not functional terms. |
| 04:07.31 | Lone_Wanderer | but when you say, "I don't see in a functional way how Flash offers anything" |
| 04:07.47 | Lone_Wanderer | when obviously, due to the very nature of Flash, it offers things that HTML doesn't |
| 04:08.08 | Lone_Wanderer | I just don't see how you can say that Flash offers no funtionality at all. |
| 04:08.09 | spiderbiter | "APPLES AND ORANGES" |
| 04:08.42 | dataw0lf | I didn't say 'no functionality' I said that 'in a functional way' ie, to accomplish something OTHER than form or design |
| 04:08.52 | dataw0lf | Flash, obviously, has functionality. |
| 04:09.04 | Lone_Wanderer | omg you just agreed with me |
| 04:09.09 | dataw0lf | which, is completely different, from providing a 'functional way' to accomplish something. |
| 04:09.19 | dataw0lf | No, you just don't understand Form over Function, I don't think. |
| 04:09.20 | spiderbiter | "FORM Vs. FUNCTION" |
| 04:09.32 | dataw0lf | this guy really needs to read up, man. |
| 04:09.41 | Lone_Wanderer | which is completely unrelated to the statement "Flash offers functionality that HTML doesn't" |
| 04:09.55 | Lone_Wanderer | form vs. function doesn't even enter into the equation there |
| 04:10.06 | Lone_Wanderer | another ad hominem attack, thank you |
| 04:10.32 | dataw0lf | <Lone_Wanderer> but I don't think you could recreate, for example, the strong bad email cartoons without Flash |
| 04:10.32 | dataw0lf | <dataw0lf> That's not functionality. |
| 04:10.32 | dataw0lf | <spiderbiter> BINGO! |
| 04:10.41 | dataw0lf | see, I should of known from this that you didn't know what you were arguing. |
| 04:10.58 | dataw0lf | we were talking about Form versus Function. |
| 04:11.04 | dataw0lf | Not 'the functionality' of something. |
| 04:11.15 | dataw0lf | Let me find you a link for Form versus Function so you can read up. |
| 04:11.28 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm familiar with the concept, thank you. |
| 04:11.46 | dataw0lf | http://www.meta4creations.com/smallbiz/21form-function.htm |
| 04:11.56 | dataw0lf | You are apparently not; you totally confused two different terms. |
| 04:12.10 | Lone_Wanderer | Does anyone else feel like datawolf is being rude to me? |
| 04:12.19 | dataw0lf | They sound the same, but, I think you need to look into the definitions. |
| 04:12.21 | Lone_Wanderer | because I feel like he's being incredibly condescending |
| 04:12.37 | Lone_Wanderer | just wondering if it's all in my head |
| 04:12.37 | dataw0lf | I am incredibly condescending. |
| 04:12.50 | Lone_Wanderer | well alright then |
| 04:12.52 | dataw0lf | I'm glad you picked up on that; I thought you might've missed it along with Form versus Function. |
| 04:13.37 | Lone_Wanderer | I was never even talking about form vs. function. |
| 04:13.55 | spiderbiter | That's been my platform all along! |
| 04:14.22 | Lone_Wanderer | I was merely attempting to impress upon you that Flash provides things which HTML does not. Unless I missed it, you have yet to recognize this very basic and simple fact. |
| 04:14.34 | spiderbiter | You can make a DAMN GOOD living on either side of the fence |
| 04:14.45 | spiderbiter | because they both have their place |
| 04:14.56 | dataw0lf | God, Flash is completely different, why can't you see this?? |
| 04:15.24 | Lone_Wanderer | Why are you unable to recognize, datawolf, that what I am saying is precisely and exactly that Flash is completely different from HTML? |
| 04:15.48 | dataw0lf | I have been saying that all along. |
| 04:15.50 | Lone_Wanderer | They do different things. They are not the same. Flash does things that HTML doesn't. |
| 04:15.59 | spiderbiter | OK THEN !! |
| 04:15.59 | Lone_Wanderer | So have I. |
| 04:16.05 | spiderbiter | let's all hug an d go home |
| 04:16.15 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm not gonna hug him :p he's mean. |
| 04:16.17 | dataw0lf | The guy doesn't know what he's talking about. |
| 04:16.24 | Lone_Wanderer | see? he's mean |
| 04:16.37 | dataw0lf | Sorry, you come across as an extreme noob. |
| 04:16.52 | Lone_Wanderer | Right, I don't agree with you so I must be new to this whole thing. |
| 04:17.16 | dataw0lf | No, you are just trying to compare two very, very different technologies. It's noobish, I'm sorry. |
| 04:17.28 | Brother_Love | Alright bigdog_ut! |
| 04:17.31 | Lone_Wanderer | It's not even that I don't agree with you, it's that I said the same thing you said in a slightly different way |
| 04:17.39 | Lone_Wanderer | which apparently makes me an amateur |
| 04:17.41 | dataw0lf | right, in a noob way. |
| 04:17.46 | Brother_Love | We need an Ass Manager! We're all asses tonight |
| 04:18.46 | Lone_Wanderer | Dude, if you can't even admit that you're wrong about something as stupid as this, that's just seriously sad. |
| 04:19.39 | Brother_Love | Pride is the root of all evil |
| 04:19.56 | Lone_Wanderer | my feet are cold |
| 04:19.58 | dataw0lf | I'm not wrong about anything! we were arguing about the application of Flash in a website. |
| 04:20.14 | Lone_Wanderer | I cannot believe that you just said that you're not wrong about anything. |
| 04:20.24 | dataw0lf | and I said it offered no functionality (read: Form versus Function) that could not be applied in a different way. |
| 04:20.34 | dataw0lf | I'm not wrong about anything. |
| 04:20.36 | dataw0lf | Ask anybody. |
| 04:21.16 | Lone_Wanderer | The statement "I'm not wrong about anything." is demonstratably false. |
| 04:21.44 | dataw0lf | You haven't seen me when I really get into something. |
| 04:22.10 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm sure if I saw you really get into something I would be even more shocked and ashamed on your behalf than I am now. |
| 04:22.53 | Lone_Wanderer | The ability to admit one's mistakes is a character trait that is admired almost universally. I respectfully suggest that you begin cultivating it. |
| 04:23.11 | dataw0lf | If I ever made a mistake, I assure you, I'd admit to it. |
| 04:23.15 | dataw0lf | But since I don't... |
| 04:23.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Likewise, arrogance is a character trait that is almost universally despised. |
| 04:23.51 | dataw0lf | I like to call it 'extreme badassness' |
| 04:23.56 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm sure you do. |
| 04:24.01 | dataw0lf | </troll> |
| 04:24.04 | dataw0lf | Man, that was a good one. |
| 04:24.16 | dataw0lf | I think I might head over to #gentoo now, I'm all warmed up. |
| 04:24.30 | Brother_Love | LOL |
| 04:24.51 | dataw0lf | hehe, I told you man, I love doing this. |
| 04:25.03 | Lone_Wanderer | You have fun being an extreme badass on gentoo. |
| 04:25.10 | dataw0lf | lmao |
| 04:25.14 | dataw0lf | I don't think he gets it. |
| 04:25.17 | dataw0lf | but that's ok. |
| 04:25.44 | dataw0lf | and, btw, I suggest using X-Chat, it's a very good irc client. |
| 04:26.28 | dataw0lf | Back in the day fo sho. |
| 04:26.58 | dataw0lf | tierra|w_: you totally missed the trolling session, lamer. |
| 04:27.12 | tierra|w | on what? |
| 04:27.41 | dataw0lf | um, I thought for a while it was Form versus Function, but apparently it was HTML versus Flash. |
| 04:28.07 | tierra|w | HTML vs Flash? ... um... those don't compare |
| 04:28.11 | dataw0lf | rol |
| 04:28.13 | dataw0lf | thank you. |
| 04:28.30 | dataw0lf | But the troll is over, I'm either doing #linuxhelp on CJ next or #gentoo here. |
| 04:28.39 | Lone_Wanderer | You troll for fun? |
| 04:28.43 | dataw0lf | synic|h: beware. |
| 04:28.51 | dataw0lf | You truly have no idea. |
| 04:28.55 | tierra|w | why not? |
| 04:28.57 | dataw0lf | Sorry if I insulted you. |
| 04:29.22 | Lone_Wanderer | If your opinion of me held any weight whatsoever, I might have cared. |
| 04:30.37 | tierra|w | haha... the first comments were ones against Gentoo |
| 04:30.39 | tierra|w | rol |
| 04:32.01 | tierra|w | haha! "don't most of you guys just use it for... coolness value?" |
| 04:32.31 | tierra|w | ooo... lots of action now |
| 04:40.14 | *** part/#uphpu Lone_Wanderer (~chatzilla@64.122.31.10) |
| 04:41.25 | bigdog_ut | no it is quiet |
| 04:50.40 | dataw0lf | roltastic |
| 04:51.23 | dataw0lf | man, I love that. |
| 04:51.25 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 04:51.52 | dataw0lf | oh, I'm definitely going to hell. |
| 04:52.07 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 04:52.11 | dataw0lf | like, internet hell. |
| 04:56.00 | spiderbiter | You guys ever see this? http://kaos.m0f0.net/~zathan/humor/retarded.jpg |
| 04:56.10 | spiderbiter | it's tasteless but darn funny |
| 04:57.43 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 04:58.08 | bigdog_ut | why are there so many stupid people? |
| 04:58.09 | dataw0lf | yeah, I've seen it before. |
| 04:59.37 | dataw0lf | bigdog_ut: so you like Ubuntu so far? |
| 05:01.10 | bigdog_ut | no i have not used it yet |
| 05:01.13 | bigdog_ut | i am gentoo still |
| 05:01.17 | dataw0lf | bah. |
| 05:01.35 | bigdog_ut | debian is okay...i only like it on servers |
| 05:01.40 | bigdog_ut | not desktops |
| 05:03.42 | dataw0lf | Agreed. |
| 05:03.50 | bigdog_ut | dataw0lf, funny how many there dont know gentoo |
| 05:04.02 | dataw0lf | Ubuntu is the best desktop distro, imho. |
| 05:04.08 | dataw0lf | bigdog_ut: on #gentoo ? |
| 05:04.19 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 05:04.47 | dataw0lf | Yeah, that's why I have so much fun messing with them. |
| 05:05.01 | tierra|w | yeah, I'm still a Gentoo advocate, but I'm going to give Ubuntu a shot |
| 05:05.59 | dataw0lf | More converts! |
| 05:06.49 | tierra|w | well, it would be stupid to just shove Ubuntu off to side without ever trying it |
| 05:07.01 | tierra|w | but it's going to be hard to beat Gentoo |
| 05:07.16 | dataw0lf | heh. |
| 05:07.18 | dataw0lf | you're so wrong. |
| 05:37.53 | *** join/#uphpu drewbono (~andrew@c-24-2-90-131.client.comcast.net) |
| 06:31.19 | *** join/#uphpu spiderbiter_ (~spiderbit@38.119.177.194) |
| 09:21.53 | *** join/#uphpu spiderbiter (~spiderbit@38.119.177.194) |
| 14:18.46 | *** join/#uphpu drewbono (~andrew@c-24-2-90-131.client.comcast.net) |
| 14:53.10 | *** join/#uphpu wps (~wps@166.70.209.92) |
| 14:53.13 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o wps] by ChanServ |
| 15:17.58 | optikal | http://he.net/faq/bittorrent.html |
| 15:41.07 | *** join/#uphpu mindjuju (~mindjuju@63.226.104.67) |
| 15:41.29 | wps | ~mindjuju |
| 15:41.37 | mindjuju | greets! |
| 15:41.49 | wps | ~google mindjuju |
| 15:42.24 | optikal | mornin |
| 15:43.38 | mindjuju | yup, those are me |
| 15:43.45 | mindjuju | moring optikal |
| 15:43.52 | optikal | g'morn |
| 15:43.55 | mindjuju | have you had a chance to hear that goa? |
| 15:44.06 | optikal | I just started.. 22 secs into it =P |
| 15:44.18 | optikal | Needs a noise reduction ran on it.. |
| 15:44.37 | mindjuju | yeah, big time. though for some reason, it fixes itself after like minute 1 |
| 15:44.42 | optikal | ooh great |
| 15:44.52 | optikal | I was about to remote it to a box to clean it up heh |
| 15:45.08 | mindjuju | i just heard baby anne's Mixtress last night, that's one CD i've got to buy |
| 15:45.47 | optikal | yah. sorry about not getting on last night to find your stuff, i had a emergency |
| 15:46.15 | mindjuju | hey, no worries |
| 15:47.00 | optikal | need to get my network set back up, so i can remote back to my boxes |
| 15:48.56 | optikal | http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/24/1945223&tid=174 First ever Mac video released onto the interweb.. |
| 15:50.28 | mindjuju | i think i have somewhere an RA file of alan greenspan with the apple IIc, i *think* it's the IIc |
| 15:50.41 | optikal | haha nice |
| 15:50.47 | *** join/#uphpu wps (~wps@166.70.209.92) |
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| 15:55.58 | *** join/#uphpu bigdog_ut (~bigdog_ut@166.70.34.182) |
| 15:55.58 | *** mode/#uphpu [+o bigdog_ut] by ChanServ |
| 15:56.17 | bigdog_ut | #utah |
| 15:57.45 | optikal | ... |
| 16:00.37 | mindjuju | that mac video is awesome |
| 16:01.04 | wps | yeah |
| 16:01.24 | mindjuju | the other IT guy here is cringing because he thinks Mac are the dark side |
| 16:01.59 | optikal | Well |
| 16:02.00 | optikal | They are |
| 16:02.12 | optikal | however the Dark side doesnt mean its not good to be on that side =P |
| 16:02.30 | optikal | I am a 100% dedicated PC user, but I would love a MiniMac for Graphical/Audio Editing |
| 16:02.36 | optikal | Multimedia baby |
| 16:02.38 | mindjuju | <grin>, i just think the macs are misunderstood |
| 16:02.52 | mindjuju | did you seen that g5 built into the monitor? |
| 16:03.30 | optikal | Macs have some great advantages, but for me personally, as a mainstream system it has more disadvantages.. so it would be great for a secondary workstation. |
| 16:03.43 | mindjuju | v true, but look at this computer |
| 16:03.43 | mindjuju | http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72104/wo/jQ5Z760n8rrN2eVyBgsXFEUeTKn/0.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.3.1.2.0.0.1.0 |
| 16:03.44 | bigdog_ut | wps, that is what mac is calling it |
| 16:03.51 | optikal | miniMac? minimac? Minimac? How would you "Mac users" call it =P |
| 16:03.56 | wps | no, it's "Mac Mini" |
| 16:04.07 | optikal | Aah. Thanks for the correction, Ill be sure to continue and get it wrong. |
| 16:04.09 | optikal | =P |
| 16:04.09 | bigdog_ut | oh...minimac is cooler |
| 16:04.13 | optikal | ^^ |
| 16:04.21 | optikal | Mac Mini.. sounds like a toaster to me. |
| 16:04.31 | mindjuju | wha??? i'll have to see the mac mini cause i think that imac is way cool |
| 16:04.46 | wps | I don't care... and it doesn't matter... I just thought it was interesting |
| 16:04.49 | optikal | Where have you been the past few weeks? |
| 16:04.50 | mindjuju | if you go wireless on keyboard and mouse and ethernet, all you have is the power cable |
| 16:05.28 | optikal | Someone buy me the 20".. I'll think ur real cool if u do! =) |
| 16:06.11 | bigdog_ut | likewise |
| 16:06.16 | mindjuju | nah, i got a microform that's shoe box size that's cool too, but that has cables running all around, built into monitor means no monitor cables |
| 16:06.24 | bigdog_ut | i do have 2 19" flats |
| 16:06.33 | optikal | ooh |
| 16:06.46 | optikal | I have 2 19" Flat CRTs.. but not LCD. |
| 16:06.49 | bigdog_ut | yeah...it is hard to come to work with my 17" |
| 16:07.04 | bigdog_ut | makes a big difference |
| 16:07.08 | optikal | yeah |
| 16:07.15 | bigdog_ut | but i do like the crts too |
| 16:07.25 | bigdog_ut | wps has 2 20" at work right? |
| 16:07.32 | bigdog_ut | or 21" |
| 16:07.40 | wps | yeah, dual 20" LCDs |
| 16:08.05 | optikal | I use to LAN @ my old job on a 40" LCD.. *oof* |
| 16:08.45 | bigdog_ut | in some places ive been for the airforce i have seen guys that have 50" ones...the tv ones |
| 16:09.01 | wps | wow |
| 16:09.01 | optikal | Ive got 1gb in my workstation @ work, and 1gb @ my workstation @ home. |
| 16:09.17 | wps | ram is the bestest |
| 16:09.21 | optikal | bigdog_ut: yah.. counterstrike no a 40" was very fun |
| 16:09.36 | optikal | bigdog_ut: i needa hook mself up w/ a laptop, ive been w/o one for like 3-4 months.. i feel nekkid |
| 16:09.58 | bigdog_ut | pc laptops is selling a new model |
| 16:10.04 | optikal | No thanks |
| 16:10.26 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 16:10.26 | optikal | Great service, great laptops.. but really, i dont need a high end $3k laptop that I can game on.. |
| 16:10.30 | bigdog_ut | likewise |
| 16:10.41 | optikal | I need a workstation laptop, throw on gentoo and some apps.. but a mid end laptop is all I need |
| 16:11.04 | bigdog_ut | yeah...i have 2 laptops and one is sitting at home |
| 16:11.09 | optikal | hmm |
| 16:11.20 | optikal | you suck =P |
| 16:11.30 | bigdog_ut | yeah i know |
| 16:11.31 | optikal | if you ever think of selling it, i am looking |
| 16:11.58 | bigdog_ut | it is like 2k for that one it is killer...but i think you can get a refurbished for cheaper |
| 16:12.22 | optikal | Aah. Might I ask why you have a $2k laptop just "sitting at home"? =) |
| 16:12.37 | optikal | I mean, Im known for having some crraaazy computer parts laying around, but generally people dont just have an extra $2k laptop.. |
| 16:12.38 | bigdog_ut | cause i have a 1400 here at work that is faster |
| 16:12.54 | optikal | aaah. nice =) |
| 16:13.08 | bigdog_ut | the one at home is 2.57p4, 512mb, radeon video |
| 16:13.15 | optikal | very nice |
| 16:13.23 | bigdog_ut | the one here is 3.4p4, 1gb, radeon 17" wide |
| 16:13.29 | optikal | oof |
| 16:13.40 | optikal | Enough dirty talk about laptops, getting me excited. |
| 16:13.48 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 16:14.01 | bigdog_ut | sun is about to announce solaris 10 is open source |
| 16:14.20 | optikal | Nice |
| 16:14.26 | optikal | Gentoo is being ported to OpenSolaris |
| 16:14.40 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 16:15.00 | bigdog_ut | i actually used gentoo to fix some issues with my solaris box here at work |
| 16:15.04 | bigdog_ut | funny thing |
| 16:15.21 | optikal | gentoo is currently my distro of choice, likely to be followed by ubuntu when i get it checked out |
| 16:15.23 | bigdog_ut | the gentoo live cd i used |
| 16:15.37 | bigdog_ut | not sure if i want to try ubuntu |
| 16:15.48 | bigdog_ut | it sounds alot like redhat/debian |
| 16:16.13 | optikal | it is debian.. debian sid, but very stable, latest stuff, and all perl scripts rewritten in python.. those are some main diff's i know |
| 16:23.38 | bigdog_ut | yeah, but i was meaning it is like redhat in that you have a subset of packages to chose from...but u can unmask that |
| 16:24.53 | optikal | yeah. apt-get is pretty nice, and gentoo has portage.. it makes things easier, but its so customizable its generally just easier to do things with than troublesome. I love USE-flags |
| 16:25.08 | bigdog_ut | same here |
| 16:25.17 | bigdog_ut | i have loved gentoo since the day i put it one |
| 16:25.21 | bigdog_ut | on |
| 16:25.32 | optikal | I live the init.d as well and the rc-update scripts in gentoo as well. |
| 16:25.56 | optikal | yeah. tierra introduced me mostly to gentoo. i had heard of it before, but never actually installed it until he recommended i do so.. then i converted from debian to gentoo =) |
| 16:26.39 | bigdog_ut | i do like debian on servers...very killer |
| 16:26.55 | bigdog_ut | i have a couple friends that run gentoo on servers and it rocks...but not sure if i would |
| 16:27.18 | optikal | yeah. |
| 16:27.23 | optikal | I love it as a server, and a workstation.. |
| 16:27.28 | optikal | their handbook documentations are awesome |
| 16:27.43 | bigdog_ut | that is true...some of the best i have seen |
| 16:27.49 | optikal | yeah. and only getting better. |
| 16:28.09 | bigdog_ut | true |
| 16:28.36 | bigdog_ut | there is another distro out there that i wanted to try called linux from scratch that looked cool |
| 16:29.26 | optikal | ive heard of it |
| 16:29.36 | optikal | but never really looked deep into the feature rich side of it |
| 16:33.10 | bigdog_ut | yeah it looks cool in terms of learning how it all works |
| 16:33.27 | bigdog_ut | i learned so much when i do the gentoo installs |
| 16:33.46 | bigdog_ut | i think linux from scratch would take it to the next level in that you do everything manually |
| 16:39.03 | optikal | yeah |
| 16:39.07 | optikal | right there along w/ ya |
| 16:40.29 | bigdog_ut | one thing is that with gentoo i have learned more about the internals of linux then i have with any other distro |
| 16:40.43 | optikal | yeah.. exactly. |
| 16:40.58 | optikal | i think thats half the reason i love it.. it has gracefully and swiftfully, brought me to a new level of linux |
| 16:41.24 | optikal | i run optikal.org off it, and am about to transfer a few other domains i have to gentoo |
| 16:41.40 | bigdog_ut | nice |
| 16:42.14 | optikal | they're ran off a UML from linode.com.. I love it |
| 16:45.10 | optikal | mindjuju: this is some pretty mellow goa, for bein goa.. hehe |
| 16:45.14 | optikal | good stuff, dont get me wrong |
| 16:46.40 | bigdog_ut | yeah i have looked at them |
| 16:46.51 | mindjuju | oh, on that oakie? |
| 16:46.55 | optikal | yeah |
| 16:47.14 | optikal | bigdog_ut: if you ever need a UML, Linode.com is the way to go.. uber bandwidth, linux god as the admin, its crazy |
| 16:47.30 | mindjuju | new to goa as I was listening more to house trance and breakbeats |
| 16:47.37 | optikal | And i've gotta talk dataw0lf into talking the admin into putting a unbuntu image on there |
| 16:47.55 | optikal | mindjuju: aah.. yah, this is real mellow stuff.. my goa trance is like dance/club beats.. |
| 16:48.06 | optikal | But there are definately times where mellow is > |
| 16:48.37 | mindjuju | cool, i'm going to fire up the infected mushroom to hear some - do you like breakbeats? |
| 16:49.44 | optikal | Uhmm |
| 16:49.49 | optikal | Not exactly sure, to be honest. |
| 16:49.56 | optikal | I do not like most Drum'n'Bass.. but I do like some |
| 16:50.17 | mindjuju | i've have to send you some DJ baby anne |
| 16:50.28 | mindjuju | i've found the music to be curiously addicting |
| 16:51.02 | mindjuju | do you still have that ftp spot open? |
| 16:52.41 | optikal | yeah |
| 16:52.44 | optikal | its perma |
| 16:59.10 | mindjuju | k, baby anne is on it's way in |
| 16:59.19 | optikal | awesome |
| 17:38.36 | mindjuju | baby anne is there, let me know if you like it |
| 17:38.42 | optikal | ok |
| 17:42.51 | optikal | wtf is going on here.. |
| 17:43.20 | mindjuju | what up? |
| 17:44.16 | optikal | Im in the process of resetting up our network, so I dont have lan access to the box with the ftp account on it.. so i just burn it off and put it on my workstation.. i was playing the oakie goa mix from the cd.. and ejected the cd to put in baby anne, and the song is still playing |
| 17:44.22 | optikal | prior to ejecting, i did copy it into my "music" folder.. |
| 17:44.31 | optikal | and i know im not buffering over 15 seconds (been ejected about 2min) |
| 17:45.05 | mindjuju | wha??? |
| 17:45.10 | mindjuju | that's wierd |
| 17:45.20 | optikal | if i do file info on the mp3 |
| 17:45.22 | optikal | path is E:\songnamehere |
| 17:45.24 | optikal | and E:\ is the cdrom |
| 17:46.00 | optikal | Im really trippin on this.. |
| 17:46.10 | optikal | i really doubt winamp watched me copied the file and resumed it from there.. |
| 17:46.20 | optikal | well, lets see.. lemme try and rename it |
| 17:46.30 | optikal | renames fine. |
| 17:47.11 | optikal | wow |
| 17:47.15 | optikal | i stop it, and it wont replay now. |
| 17:47.24 | optikal | Maybe i've got winamp setup to buffer the whole song.. ill check later. |
| 17:48.38 | mindjuju | now i'll be honest, it's beats similar to jungle, but different |
| 17:48.55 | mindjuju | hope you like this one better? |
| 17:48.59 | optikal | I do like some Jungle.. |
| 17:49.07 | optikal | I got a pretty tight Superman Jungle Mix @ home |
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| 18:00.19 | optikal | anyone know the maximum number of rows/columns you can INSERT INTO? |
| 18:00.31 | optikal | on a single query, that is |
| 18:03.26 | macnewbold | afaik, no limit |
| 18:03.41 | macnewbold | unless there's a maximum query length, which I believe there is not. |
| 18:04.01 | macnewbold | wow, grammar sure looks worse after you send it... |
| 18:04.22 | optikal | hehe |
| 18:04.35 | macnewbold | but at least I don't have a paperclip telling me how bad my grammar is |
| 18:04.50 | optikal | mmkay. cause im trying to insert into about 35 fields.. and have run into a problem (no error, just not inserting).. so just makin sure it wasnt that -- thanks |
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| 21:16.00 | bigdog_ut | afternoon all |
| 21:25.29 | mindjuju | does anybody know a good *free* icon source ? |
| 21:25.40 | bigdog_ut | what do you mean |
| 21:26.18 | mindjuju | looking for an icon of an eye and i've scoured all the free icon sources i could find on google, was wondering if somebody knew a site that had free icons |
| 21:26.57 | fungus | www.deviantart.com has quite a few icon collections, most of which are free. |
| 21:27.27 | bigdog_ut | kde does too |
| 21:30.29 | mindjuju | that deviantart looks awesome! thnx! |
| 21:30.34 | mindjuju | what's the url for kde? |
| 21:30.46 | bigdog_ut | kdelook |
| 21:31.03 | bigdog_ut | kde-look.org |
| 21:31.20 | bigdog_ut | http://kde-look.org/index.php?xcontentmode=22 |
| 21:31.56 | mindjuju | perfect! thnx guys! |
| 21:35.30 | bigdog_ut | np |
| 21:50.29 | dataw0lf | deviant art rocks. |
| 21:51.06 | dataw0lf | optikal: btw, caker is going to put Ubuntu on linode. |
| 21:51.12 | optikal | w00t |
| 21:51.32 | optikal | ^5 |
| 21:51.51 | dataw0lf | ^5 |
| 21:52.31 | dataw0lf | kdevelop is calling to me... |
| 21:52.34 | dataw0lf | I cannot listen to it! |
| 21:52.40 | bigdog_ut | kde sucks |
| 21:52.54 | dataw0lf | yeah, but kdevelop is pretty nice. |
| 21:53.00 | dataw0lf | but, indeed, KDE sucks. |
| 21:53.05 | bigdog_ut | yeah it is good |
| 21:53.12 | bigdog_ut | eclipse is my ide of choice |
| 21:53.28 | bigdog_ut | a glorified piece of sh*$ |
| 21:53.41 | dataw0lf | ugh, eclipse is slow as crap. |
| 21:53.55 | bigdog_ut | depends...when you compile it under gtk it rocks |
| 21:54.30 | bigdog_ut | im going to try compiling it native and see how it does |
| 21:55.35 | bigdog_ut | but i like the plugins for the languages in eclipse |
| 21:55.57 | bigdog_ut | however, i have been starting to move towards kdevelop because it rocks with some of its features |
| 21:56.03 | dataw0lf | yeah. |
| 21:56.05 | synic | the perl plugin is the slowest application ever. |
| 21:56.14 | bigdog_ut | perl for ? |
| 21:56.15 | synic | even on my xp 3000+ here |
| 21:56.18 | synic | perl for eclipse |
| 21:56.36 | bigdog_ut | i dont use perl that much anymore when i have python |
| 21:56.38 | dataw0lf | www.diterlizzi.com == greatest artist EVAR |
| 21:57.06 | synic | xilch forces me to use perl |
| 21:57.33 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 21:57.39 | bigdog_ut | it is okay |
| 21:57.45 | xilch | synic loves using perl |
| 21:58.12 | dataw0lf | heh, yeah right. |
| 21:58.12 | synic | I object |
| 21:58.39 | dataw0lf | if you love using perl, you're into S & M |
| 21:58.51 | bigdog_ut | dont forget the dball |
| 21:58.56 | tierra|w | deviantart is a piece of **** ... the artists rock though |
| 21:59.42 | dataw0lf | uh oh |
| 21:59.43 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 21:59.51 | dataw0lf | tierra|w is having a feud currently with DA |
| 22:00.21 | dataw0lf | you should see his 'undermine DA' script. |
| 22:01.32 | tierra|w | can anyone _not_ think of stuff you could do with a database of over 300,000 valid usernames including their rank on DA, and their popularity? |
| 22:01.44 | dataw0lf | hehe |
| 22:01.51 | dataw0lf | man, kdevelop is stealing me from gvim. |
| 22:02.46 | bigdog_ut | use the vim plugin in kdevelop |
| 22:03.06 | dataw0lf | *boggle* |
| 22:03.10 | dataw0lf | there is a vim plugin ?? |
| 22:03.14 | bigdog_ut | yeah |
| 22:03.26 | dataw0lf | rox0rz |
| 22:04.00 | bigdog_ut | go to settings...configure kdevelop |
| 22:04.10 | bigdog_ut | then go to editor in left side |
| 22:04.25 | bigdog_ut | then for embedded editor select vim component |
| 22:05.23 | dataw0lf | hrm I don't see it |
| 22:05.34 | dataw0lf | I'm using kdevelop3 |
| 22:05.46 | bigdog_ut | yeah i am 3.3.2 |
| 22:06.13 | bigdog_ut | must be an ubuntu issue |
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| 22:06.52 | dataw0lf | nah, I found it, it's just a separate package. |
| 22:06.57 | bigdog_ut | lol |
| 22:07.11 | dataw0lf | apt-get install vimpart |
| 22:10.50 | bigdog_ut | also if you are hard core vim then you can set up bash to emulate vim commands |
| 22:11.21 | bigdog_ut | i use to do that to our servers to mess with coworkers |
| 22:13.01 | *** join/#uphpu mindjuju (~mindjuju@63.226.104.67) |
| 22:22.20 | dataw0lf | yeah, I've done that before. |
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| 23:11.24 | dataw0lf | http://springfield.news-leader.com/business/today/0123-Gunslingin-285627.html |
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