IRC log for #sporewiki on 20160825

00:30.35*** join/#sporewiki Tybusen (44053b94@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.5.59.148)
00:31.22TybusenHello
00:35.04DrodoEmpireHi
00:42.13Tek0516DrodoEmpire: Just a $50 pair of Phillips. Nothing extremely fancy.
00:42.29DrodoEmpireAhh
00:43.57Tek0516DrodoEmpire: Oh, I was watching these educational videos by TED earlier. One I bailed on quickly, after it started talking about places like medieval Japan being "peaceful". O.o
00:44.55Tek0516Because it's not like there was a long internal conflict there or anything. :P
00:50.18DrodoEmpire...
00:50.19DrodoEmpire>.<
00:50.34Monet<PROTECTED>
00:50.40DrodoEmpireWhat was the message of it, ultimately?
00:51.00DrodoEmpireLike the subject?
00:52.51Tek0516DrodoEmpire: Something about successful isolationism I think? It's other examples were Egypt and the Mayans. Because obviously they never had major wars. >.>
00:53.47DrodoEmpireAh
00:53.48DrodoEmpire:p
00:53.52DrodoEmpireSounds like nonsense
00:54.34DrodoEmpireI mean, Edo period Japan *was* quite peaceful
00:54.51DrodoEmpireBut the period direct before it, and the period before *that* were not
00:55.00DrodoEmpireAnd Japan was still relatively isolated then
00:55.38DrodoEmpireAs in its biggest rivals were eachother, not Korea or China or the Jurchens :p
01:06.22Tek0516It was a rather odd argument going as far as to outright say none of the three examples "needed" war, as though they were some kind of peaceful utopias
01:08.39DrodoEmpireeeyeah no
01:08.44DrodoEmpireMayans were profoundly violent
01:08.55DrodoEmpireThe Japanese have always been warlike
01:09.30DrodoEmpireAnd Egypt fought plenty of wars both abroad (Their battles with the Hittites for example) and among eachother (intermediate periods0
01:09.31DrodoEmpire*)
01:52.09*** join/#sporewiki Spluff5 (d237baa5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.210.55.186.165)
01:53.02DrodoEmpireHi
02:03.54Spluff5Hello
02:04.16Spluff5Any of you guys using monopoles? I'm writing about them now.
02:04.49DrodoEmpireHm?
02:04.54DrodoEmpireNot me
02:05.41Spluff5I need more information for my technology page.
02:14.21WortmyYeah, there's a few monopole technologies used either for structural materials and monopole-catalysed fusion
02:18.46DrodoEmpireGenerally speaking I'm not on the techish part of the spectrum
02:18.51DrodoEmpireLess "sci" more "fi" :p
02:19.02DrodoEmpireSo I wouldn't know the first thing there
02:20.29The_RandomnessAnd, honestly, monopoles are at best theoretical
02:20.48DrodoEmpireAnd Hyperspace is entirely fictional <.<
02:20.52DrodoEmpireWhat's your point?
02:22.59The_Randomnessthat's a good point, give me a moment to get to you on that
02:23.20DrodoEmpireI mean, I know jack-shit about monopoles
02:23.26DrodoEmpireBut on that principle alone
02:23.56WortmyWell, monopole tech exists in the SporeWikiverse
02:24.03The_Randomnessyeah, it does
02:24.14WortmySo that answers Spluff's question
02:26.41DrodoEmpireOh, just had a thought playing RTW
02:27.11DrodoEmpireSome on Rome II total war a lot of units- even cavalrymen- have javelins as a secondary weapon
02:27.15DrodoEmpire*So on
02:27.46The_RandomnessDrodoEmpire: My statement was poorly timed and misdirected, so I don't have any response to you there :<
02:27.58DrodoEmpireMeh its cool
02:28.00DrodoEmpireNo problem
02:28.34DrodoEmpireAnd I mean if anyone's ever done javelin in like a school track contest you probably know that it can be tiring to toss even that flimsy aluminium one with a bit of a runup
02:29.11DrodoEmpireImagine a really heavy war-javelin, and the fact that these people could throw them a good twenty yards with decent accuracy >.<
02:29.16WortmyI'm off to bed now, but if Spluff returns could someone link him to "Topological solitons"? http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/User%3AGhel%C3%A6/Guide_To_Stuff#Hypothetical
02:29.35The_RandomnessSounds impressive
02:29.38DrodoEmpireEven worse, throwing a javelin from *horseback* (which many RII units do)
02:29.49DrodoEmpireWhere you only have upper body strength to rely on
02:30.00DrodoEmpireWormy: Sure
02:30.01The_RandomnessAnd you're constantly bumping around
02:30.05DrodoEmpire^
02:30.36DrodoEmpireWith no stirrups, as it was in the classical era
02:30.57DrodoEmpireNow, mounted javelineers are actually historical is the crazy part- the Spanish Jinetes jump to mind
02:31.46WortmyThanks, goodnight
02:31.58DrodoEmpireBut yeah I was initially sorta skeptical anybody could've thrown javelins from a sitting/hunched standing position, but it seems like there *are* examples
02:32.18DrodoEmpireI can't imagine them having long range though
02:34.43DrodoEmpireActually I wonder if they could use the speed from a galloping horse as runup
02:34.49DrodoEmpireBut I dunno how the physics add up there
02:35.16DrodoEmpireAnd a lot of the throwing force comes from the core anyway, being able to have that range of movement you don't have on the saddle
02:35.53The_RandomnessYeah, I wouldn't know, but it would seem to me like you could take advantage of the speed you have from the horse already, but then again you have additional limitations while throwing
02:36.15DrodoEmpireYeah
02:36.38DrodoEmpireI figure its a tradeoff- you have less range and accuracy, for increased speed and mobility
02:36.47DrodoEmpireThe ability to quickly run in, harass, and retreat
02:37.03The_Randomnessyeah
02:37.03The_RandomnessAlso interesting is that magnetic monopoles are predicted by a bunch of stuff, and would only require some slight modifications to Maxwell's equations
02:37.18The_RandomnessJust haven't been observed yet
02:37.38DrodoEmpireHuh
02:37.59The_RandomnessSo it seems like a fairly safe thing to bet that they'd exist, although I have no idea what sort of properties they might have
02:38.22DrodoEmpireRight, right
02:38.44DrodoEmpireAs in- their properties are unknown in general or just because you haven't read enough?
02:38.57DrodoEmpirehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinete - Ah found them
02:39.04DrodoEmpireYeah they used "darts"
02:39.20The_RandomnessWell, unknown beyond trivial stuff, i.e. they're the magnetic analogue to electric charges
02:39.27DrodoEmpireRight
02:39.53DrodoEmpireSo a there's a lot of blanks for sci-fi writers to fill
02:39.53The_RandomnessI'm sure there's some speculative stuff out there, but I have no idea how you'd produce or even use them on a large scale
02:40.02DrodoEmpireFair enough
02:40.18DrodoEmpireI stick to well-known sci-fi concepts for the Drodo, which plays in to their traditionalism fairly well
02:40.28The_Randomnessyeah
02:40.29DrodoEmpireI got other priorities with the Drodo
02:40.37DrodoEmpireOther than technological speculation
02:46.55DrodoEmpiretest
02:52.29DrodoEmpiretest
03:50.11DrodoEmpiretest
06:25.23Charles_MurrayDrodoEmpire Tybusen
06:25.35Charles_MurrayI've been doing more research on IRL naval warfare
06:25.50TybusenHello
06:26.12Charles_MurrayCan you guys guess how many battleship-on-battleship engagements there were in history, counting all nations, all navies, all theatres, all wars, all of time?
06:26.47DrodoEmpireDefine "Battleship"
06:26.56TybusenIIRC, not very many actually
06:27.03DrodoEmpireDo you mean modern, like post-dreadnaught ships?
06:27.19Charles_MurraySteam battleships (pre-dreadnoughts) and post-dreadnoughts
06:27.23TybusenFor sure there were very few clashes between post-dreadnoughts
06:27.24DrodoEmpireAhh
06:27.31DrodoEmpireI'ma say... At most like eight
06:27.36Charles_Murray3
06:27.39Charles_MurrayFucking
06:27.39Charles_Murray3
06:27.45DrodoEmpireI even *thought of three*! >.<
06:27.47TybusenYep, sounds about right
06:27.54TybusenLet's see
06:27.58TybusenThe one with the Bismarck
06:28.01DrodoEmpireI knew one was the... Battle of Tsushima I believe
06:28.05Charles_Murray^
06:28.09DrodoEmpireDuring the Russo-Japanese War
06:28.18DrodoEmpireWhich was a landslide Japanese victory
06:28.31TybusenI can't recall the third one
06:28.33TybusenWait
06:28.42DrodoEmpireBattle of... Jutland? I dunno
06:28.45TybusenActually wasn't it the one where the British and the German battleships both sunk each other
06:28.47DrodoEmpireDunno the name
06:28.52DrodoEmpireYeah I think that's Jutland
06:28.54TybusenThat's the Battle of Jutland I think
06:29.04DrodoEmpireI'm not too good with naval stuff
06:29.24Charles_MurrayJutland is correct
06:29.30DrodoEmpireAnd the last one I think was the very first naval engagement with ironclads in the American Civil War
06:29.37TybusenAh wait Bismarck was at Battle of Jutland
06:29.45TybusenDo Monitor and Merrimack count as battleships?
06:29.58DrodoEmpirePossibly, not sure by what Charles said
06:30.04DrodoEmpireProbably not on second thought
06:30.12DrodoEmpireThey were pretty primitive
06:30.39TybusenYeah, Merrimack was a frigate before becoming an ironclad
06:30.59Charles_MurrayYeah, the line is a little fuzzy, but I would definitely not classify them as battleships
06:31.24Charles_MurrayFrance - This is why I switched to carriers guys
06:31.48DrodoEmpireA lot of ship classifications are pretty arbitrary as it is
06:31.48Charles_MurrayFrance - Not sure what y'all still doing
06:31.48TybusenWikipedia tells me the third battle was Battle of the Yellow Sea during the Russo-Japanese War
06:31.48Charles_Murray^
06:32.52TybusenYellow Sea was also a Japanese victory because it prevented the Russian fleet at Port Arthur from being able to escape
06:33.10DrodoEmpireRight
06:33.17Charles_MurrayDrodoEmpire Tybusen : Also on the subject of naval warfare, I was thinking about the Rambo Starfleet earlier, and they might actually be more of a match for Xonexi doctrine than we might expect
06:33.25DrodoEmpireReally?
06:33.30DrodoEmpireThey still use warp drives
06:33.44DrodoEmpireWhich gives them a pretty big speed disadvantage
06:34.56Charles_MurrayThey seem to have a sizable airforce to start with, their ships are very small (good in hyperspatial warfare, big ships are very vulnerable), they have hyperspatial missiles, they are aware of their speed disadvantage and so are employing a territorial defense doctrine
06:35.09DrodoEmpireFair enough
06:35.37Charles_MurrayIf they were to go command of space, they'd most definitely suffer from their disadvantage in speed
06:35.48TybusenThe Delphator-class cruisers that are part of the Gorge are only capable of Warp 7.8
06:36.04Charles_MurrayThey're carriers, though, right?
06:36.19TybusenAh right
06:36.33TybusenThe Gorge page describes them as cruisers, but the Delphator page describes them as dreadnought-carriers
06:37.13Charles_MurrayHm
06:37.29Charles_MurrayWhat does the TIAF think of Rambo Nation's aggressive moves?
06:38.45TybusenThe TIAF thinks that it's definitely a step in the wrong direction by the new Rambo emperor and would probably scale back their military cooperation with the Rambo in response
06:39.18TybusenThey're probably also having memories of Emperor Kies' actions during the Kraw wars
06:40.42TybusenThere's also the fact that the TIAF has colonies in Quadrant 82 but I still have no idea where I put them
06:40.56Charles_MurrayYou could just retcon them in
06:41.03Charles_MurrayAnywhere, really
06:41.16Charles_MurrayThey'd be absolutely welcome in the Neutrality Zone where we have tons of stuff going on
06:41.54Charles_MurrayOne of the big dilemmas for me in planning for a potential confrontation with Rambo Nation is Imperial involvement
06:42.27TybusenRight, because the Rambo are still technically an Imperial protectorate
06:43.43Charles_MurrayPlanning for a war with Rambo Nation is one thing, involving countering their navy built around small ships, a territorial doctrine, all of which points to maximizing the advantages we can draw from a command of space doctrine to (1) break the Gorge, (2) isolate the different Rambo territories, and (3) attack them at will.
06:46.09Charles_MurrayPlanning for a war with Rambo Nation + the CyraEmp is the exact opposite. In that case, the Empire would be the primary concern, with what I assume is a command of space doctrine heavily reliant on battleships. Given the claustrophobic nature of the Quadrants, we don't have the space to safely engage battleships at a distance
06:46.49TybusenRight, the enclosed theater that the Gorge creates makes it difficult to counter CyraEmp's raw conventional power
06:47.28DrodoEmpire^
06:48.04Charles_MurrayWhich points to a Fleet in Being doctrine + deterring them from attacking the Neutrality Zone to bottle up as much of the Imperial Navy in the Quadrants while the war is fought elsewhere, in Mirus, the Milky Way, Andromeda, etc, places where open space gives French naval and airpower an advantage.
06:48.37DrodoEmpireRight
06:49.00DrodoEmpirePerhaps, in the event of war, it'd fall largely in the hands of the Union and Drodo Empire to defend the Quadrants and Katar
06:49.12DrodoEmpireLeaving the French to fight in the other, more open theatres
06:49.26TybusenThis is where you would probably want more conventional power supported by Supercarrier doctrine rather than the straight Supercarrier doctrine
06:49.32DrodoEmpire(Drodo use a lot of battleships as well)
06:49.48DrodoEmpireWhich is where the Drodo come in, though currently short a Supercarrier
06:49.52DrodoEmpireBut hopefully not for long
06:49.57Charles_MurrayWell
06:50.07Charles_MurrayA supercarrier isn't a combat ship, you'll remember
06:50.19Charles_MurraySupercarrier doctrine is just a power projection tool
06:50.56TybusenRight, so in a close theater like the Neutrality Zone, you'll need a lot more conventional naval power in order to protect the Supercarrier
06:51.09TybusenWhereas the vacuum of space would normally do that in an open theater
06:51.25DrodoEmpireYeah of course
06:52.29Charles_MurrayThe only reason we would have to put a supercarrier in the Quadrants is (1) if we have a safe place to put it where it won't be instantly sniped (*wink wink* Dawnstar *nudge nudge*), and (2) to provide to the NZ logistics capacity to field a fleet or sustain itself beyond what its infrastructure would already be able.
06:52.57Charles_MurrayTybusen : What do you understand by 'conventional' naval power?
06:54.33Charles_MurrayAlternatively, a reason to use a supercarrier would be to go on the offensive in a region of the Quadrants without using the established routes
06:54.53Tybusen"Conventional" naval power in the sense of traditional battleships and dreadnoughts
06:55.46TybusenAgainst a more conventional naval power like CyraEmp
06:56.36TybusenEspecially if they bring some of their larger fleets to bear
06:58.21Charles_MurraySure, I see what you mean
06:58.29TybusenThe advantages of Xonexi hyperspatial doctrine vs. conventional naval doctrine only manifest as long as the main centers of air power are kept out of the targeting range of a conventional fleet's raw firepower
06:59.21TybusenIn a tight area of space, you'll need some way to engage the enemy's fleets in a conventional manner in order to keep the fire off of your air power bases
06:59.56DrodoEmpireAgain, the Drodo doctrine's much closer to a conventional battleship doctrine >.<
07:00.14DrodoEmpireSo it *can* act as, if not a counter, an appropriate response given the terrain of the Quadrants
07:00.42Charles_MurrayWe've actually got different doctrines in play in the different Xonexi nations, though. French command of space doctrine with a heavy reliance on carriers and their escorts is one, there's the Draconis and Drodo doctrines which field battleships and battlecruisers outfitted with hyperspatial weaponry (riftfire guns, missiles) with airpower serving in support
07:00.53DrodoEmpire^
07:01.38TybusenRight, the TIAF also follows battleship doctrine instead of carrier doctrine
07:01.43Charles_Murray^
07:02.53Charles_MurrayThough they've also got French fighters if I remember correctly
07:03.04Charles_MurraySo do the Drodo actually so that doesn't change much
07:03.26DrodoEmpirehur
07:03.30DrodoEmpireI was about to mention
07:03.36DrodoEmpire*everybody* uses French fighters >.<
07:03.58Charles_MurrayFrance - :)
07:04.19TybusenThe question of committing a supercarrier to the Quadrants probably hinges on whether the involvement of CyraEmp would necessitate the extra logistical support, or make the Quadrants theater so hopeless that a Supercarrier shouldn't be risked
07:04.40Charles_MurrayHm
07:04.46Charles_MurrayI would put it another way:
07:04.49TybusenThe TIAF does also make its own fighters, but they do incorporate French fighters for more of the long-range stuff
07:06.07Charles_MurrayI would definitely commit a supercarrier to the Quadrants either way, no matter whether the Empire joins or not
07:07.54Charles_MurrayIn both cases, it provides extra logistics capacity for a territory which wasn't overly militarized before (in the sense that it has the facilities to support the armies and navies of an entire Gigaquadrantic empire, let alone several), and in the nightmare scenario that the wormhole is closed, it would provide supplies, food, fuel, etc, until we can get it up an running
07:08.08Charles_MurraySo it isn't an insta gg if we lose the wormhole
07:09.05Charles_MurrayAs for protection, easy. Put it inside the Dawnstar shell, where France will be building a whole naval base capable of accommodating it and a whole fleet of ships, definitely leaving the door open to shelter DrodoEmpire's battleships in there if necessary
07:09.24Charles_MurrayThe supercarrier would be useful in both cases, whether the Empire joins or not:
07:09.35TybusenI suppose something else to consider is if the wormhole is captured and the Rambo/CyraEmp try stuffing some of their forces into it to attack the other end
07:09.54TybusenWould that necessitate a closing of the wormhole on the other end?
07:10.01Charles_MurrayYes, without question
07:10.46TybusenI suppose with 2800s tech they can probably set up a new wormhole after it's all clear
07:11.17Charles_MurrayWhich would take time and resources, but it's probably the only way to get back
07:11.26TybusenI guess wormholes are like super-long range canals in this sense
07:11.47TybusenThough I can't recall any times in naval history where an important canal was destroyed to prevent an enemy from gaining usage of it
07:12.14DrodoEmpireYeah to destroy a canal is, well firstly very har
07:12.15DrodoEmpire*hard
07:12.21DrodoEmpireAnd canals are very expensive too >.<
07:12.49Charles_MurrayRite. I have a hunch that Egypt did that during the Suez Crisis, though I'm not entirely sure
07:13.17DrodoEmpireWasn't that they just blocked it off, as opposed to blowing the whole thing up?
07:13.17TybusenI was thinking that Suez is the most likely to have had that happen to it, but I don't think the Suez Crisis led to the Canal being destroyed in some way
07:13.19Charles_MurrayI remember it was out of commission for a while afterwards
07:13.24DrodoEmpireI dunno
07:13.44Charles_MurrayYeah, I'm in the dark too
07:14.02Charles_MurrayBut unlike canals, wormholes can be easily destroyed
07:14.05TybusenWell, I guess if we're comparing canals to wormholes here, destroying a wormhole in the 2800s is probably akin to throwing a bunch of massive boulders into the canal
07:14.24Charles_Murray^
07:15.00Charles_MurrayThe real question for me
07:15.27TybusenThough I have to imagine that in eras before wormhole engineering was common, destroying a wormhole for strategic purposes was probably a decision with much greater weight
07:15.37DrodoEmpire^
07:15.58Charles_MurrayI personally wish it wasn't common tbh
07:16.23Charles_MurrayWormholes take away a lot of strategic depth we could otherwise have
07:17.00TybusenOr rather, perhaps the ease with which wormholes can be reconstructed makes wormholes lose a lot of their potential strategic value
07:17.43DrodoAwayYeah, I'm not against them as an idea
07:17.47DrodoAwayThey're certainly convenient
07:18.06DrodoAwayBut they shouldn't be thrown around like candy
07:18.57TybusenActually, most of the Bunsen wars that I've done involve the use of wormholes in an era where making your own wormhole was unheard of
07:19.52TybusenSince they're lost forever if you destroy them, you don't blow them up to prevent an enemy from using them, and you have to factor them into your defensive calculations
07:19.55Charles_MurrayTybusen : I dunno; the biggest question I have for battleship doctrine is how you answer a territory which can project a killzone of anti-ship missiles from ground-based launchers whose range exceeds that of battleship guns, and whose range is extended further by strike craft based out of airstrips in the territory.
07:22.03TybusenCharles_Murray: I think the TIAF's answer for that would be clearing out long hyperspace routes to the target in order to reduce the opportunities the anti-ship defenses have to attack the fleet in transit
07:22.46TybusenAnd once in orbit, the fleet is more than capable of dealing with planet-based defenses (primarily through orbital bombardment)
07:23.25TybusenThough then again, I'm probably thinking of the era when hyperspace travel was the norm and there were no counters to ships in hyperspace
07:24.26TybusenTBH most of my assumptions on TIAF naval tactics come from the Andromeda War which is the last time I actually wrote a conventional naval battle for the TIAF
07:29.31*** join/#sporewiki Liquid_Ink (79d0cd9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.208.205.157)
07:38.02*** join/#sporewiki Charles_Murray (32b8eef8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.184.238.248)
07:38.07Charles_MurrayTybusen : Ack sorry
07:38.08Charles_MurrayDced
07:38.11Charles_Murrayand didn't realize it
07:38.18Charles_MurrayWhat was the last thing that was said?
07:41.22Tybusen[00:19] <Charles_Murray> Tybusen : I dunno; the biggest question I have for battleship doctrine is how you answer a territory which can project a killzone of anti-ship missiles from ground-based launchers whose range exceeds that of battleship guns, and whose range is extended further by strike craft based out of airstrips in the territory.
07:41.32TybusenCharles_Murray: I think the TIAF's answer for that would be clearing out long hyperspace routes to the target in order to reduce the opportunities the anti-ship defenses have to attack the fleet in transit
07:41.34TybusenAnd once in orbit, the fleet is more than capable of dealing with planet-based defenses (primarily through orbital bombardment)
07:41.36TybusenThough then again, I'm probably thinking of the era when hyperspace travel was the norm and there were no counters to ships in hyperspace
07:41.39TybusenTBH most of my assumptions on TIAF naval tactics come from the Andromeda War which is the last time I actually wrote a conventional naval battle for the TIAF
07:43.21Charles_MurrayRight, but I mean a very large and concentrated grouping of planets (a territory) where the infrastructure for ground troops and ground-based systems is present, and where they themselves are present
07:45.00TybusenRight, there battleship doctrine doesn't really have an era
07:45.01Tybusen*answer
07:45.09Charles_MurrayIf you approach the territory, you're accosted by missiles from all directions. If your shredded fleet gets into orbit of a planet, sure the planet below won't be able to target them because of the Angelfire's inability to fire accurately at short range, but they'll still be attacked on all sides by the planets around them
07:45.20Charles_MurrayWhich is my concern
07:45.28Charles_MurrayBattleships are made to fight other battleship
07:45.31Charles_Murraybattleships*
07:45.54Charles_MurrayWhat happens when there's no battleships to fight, and you're instead met with cheap missile-carrying systems for which you are a big target?
07:47.19TybusenRight, that's not an easy situation for battleship-oriented navies
07:48.02TybusenThough for battleship navies like the TIAF or Drodo, since they lack enemies that are using carrier doctrine like France, I'd imagine they see less of a need to "evolve" to carrier tactics
07:48.19Charles_MurrayFrance - But that makes me OP
07:48.43Tybusen*France has been banned to Ubers tier*
07:49.03Charles_MurrayFrance - Bu-bu-but... I have no one to play with...
07:49.14TybusenXhodocto - hey
07:49.19Charles_MurrayFrance - FUCK
07:49.48TybusenTIAF - that's what you get for being too tall hon hon
07:51.33TybusenI wonder if some of the naval planners who are managing the Xonexi battleship navies are also thinking that letting France handle all of the carrier stuff will prevent their individual enemies from going to carriers too in response to an all-carrier Xonexi bloc
07:53.55Charles_MurrayI strongly doubt it, there's really nothing to be gained by maintaining a hugely expensive battleship arms race when it's so easy to switch over, and so easy to invalidate the object of the arms race
07:54.52TybusenThey might have the idea in their heads that switching to carriers will just start a carrier arms race
07:55.31TybusenAnd since battleships are still by and large the status quo outside of Xonexi, they don't see a need to switch over to a different doctrine
07:55.56Charles_MurrayWell there's keeping up with French power for one
07:56.08TybusenIn the TIAF's case, at least, their senior staff is also filled with older commanders who are trained in battleship doctrine and like their powerful warships too much to switch
07:57.34Charles_MurrayBecause while France has been good with the diplomacy and all, that's due partly to the character and disposition of its leaders, but also to the imperfect nature of its power: it needs to compromise in order to get what it wants. If it gets too powerful, why would it need to listen to the TIAF or the DI when it can just go ahead and do it over objections?
07:58.25TybusenRight, and in some ways the TIAF is taking the Franco-Tybusen alliance for granted in this respect
07:58.46Charles_MurrayAye, in a way
07:58.55TybusenThey are taking some measures to keep up, like the Vontarion-class strategic dreadnought, but they're mostly relying on France to handle the carrier logistics
07:59.23Charles_MurrayThere's also maximizing your own power. Those who switch are able to use their resources more efficiently, with the same resources providing greater power under a carrier doctrine
08:00.06Charles_MurrayAnd so, eventually everyone is using a carrier doctrine for fear of falling behind
08:00.15TybusenThe TIAF's reluctance to switch to carrier doctrine has largely to do with getting a little too comfortable under the French carrier umbrella and that they have an entrenched senior command staff that prefers battleship doctrine
08:00.42Charles_MurrayThat makes sense to me
08:01.06TybusenAnd since TIAF command staff has a tendency to not die or retire, they will likely stay a battleship navy until something forces them to switch
08:01.20Charles_MurrayFrance - *nudge*
08:01.30TybusenWhich would most likely be being on the receiving end on a devastating carrier attack a la Pearl Harbor
08:01.38Charles_MurrayFrance - *bombs*
08:02.40Tybusen"You have declared war on the TIAF!"
08:02.41Charles_MurrayWould there be other ways for France to nudge them in the direction of reform?
08:02.57Charles_MurrayThen... You know... Attacking them.
08:03.41TybusenThe TIAF is probably going to be pretty stubborn on this issue as far as friendly encouragement/nudging/shoving goes
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08:04.23TybusenThey are more likely to be convinced to go carrier by the actions of non-Xonexi nations rather than others in the Xonexi bloc
08:04.29Charles_BotWell of course
08:04.53Charles_BotThe battleship refused to die in the US navy until 1991
08:06.25TybusenIf the other Bunsen nations start adopting carriers, that might convince them to upgrade, but the other Bunsen powers either currently lack the resources for carrier-based naval power or have no desire for it
08:07.17TybusenThe BGR could probably muster the resources but since they are isolationist by nature and are a very compact nation, they have no desire for carrier power
08:07.29Charles_BotBut at the same time, the rest of the navy evolved despite the fact that battleships were still in service, albeit in a secondary role
08:07.44Charles_BotWell it actually extends beyond the mere use of carriers
08:08.21TybusenRight, it's also about the power projection that comes with it
08:08.50Charles_BotIt's actually the introduction of naval aviation IRL, and the introduction of missiles which makes naval aviation relevant again over lone distances in Sporewiki
08:08.56Charles_BotLong*
08:09.31Charles_BotA strike craft carrying an angelfire missile is cheap; a ground-based angelfire missile system is even cheaper
08:11.07Charles_BotThe Bunsen powers might not want to sink the resources into carrier aviation, and that makes perfect sense. It's complex, and demanding in resources, skill, and infrastructure
08:11.21Charles_BotAnd not to mention situational
08:12.07Charles_BotIt makes perfect sense in France's case, given that it has a large empire to defend and huge networks in between to keep control of
08:12.55TybusenBut for most of the Bunsen powers, who have contiguous empires in one galaxy, there's less of a need for that amount of efficient power projection
08:13.06Charles_Bot^^^^^
08:13.31Charles_BotNot only that, but the territories are very close together and often touching
08:14.19Charles_BotWhich means that navies, operating in the spaces between, will play a secondary role in support of armies attacking and defending that territorial space
08:15.20TybusenRight, tight quarters like that demand more raw strength than long-range power projection
08:16.21TybusenIn the form of war constructs that can take and control planets rather than establish zones of absolute naval dominance
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08:16.47Charles_Bot^^^
08:16.49TybusenSince the resources offered by planets outweigh those given by control over swathes of space
08:16.53TybusenHai Impy
08:17.17Charles_BotWell, I would disagree there
08:17.47Charles_BotIt has little to do with resources and more with what the strategic situation demands, and what it lets you get away with
08:18.08TybusenRight, that makes sense
08:19.15Charles_BotSo in France's case, control of the spaces between is a necessity for it to be able to bring to bear the raw power that you're speaking of as a precondition for taking a territory
08:19.31Charles_BotFor BGR, AWA, etc, they literally don't need that
08:19.52TybusenRight, because there is little to no space in between to establish control over
08:20.19TybusenTerritorial borders are *the* front lines in Bunsen conventional wars
08:20.37Charles_Bot^^^^ They can just use short-range transports and escort ships to get seamlessly from one territory
08:20.42Charles_BotTo another
08:22.01Charles_BotThey can instead focus their resources on their armies, elaborately protecting those borders, etc, while a naval force would be a waste
08:22.29Charles_BotIf they mean to fight a war against Bunsen powers I mean
08:23.09TybusenRight, though naval power is still considered important in Bunsen doctrines in order to establish safe corridors for transport of terrestrial forces and resources
08:23.48Charles_BotThey'd also be coming up with more and more elaborate ways to attack and dismantle the fortifications of neighboring powers, while France's army is pretty vanilla
08:24.37Tybusenso what you're saying is that they're french vanilla
08:25.09Charles_BotFrance - I HAVE BEEN SHOWN
08:25.50TybusenBut yes, the evolution of Bunsen powers' tactics and strategies largely revolve around subverting enemy fortifications by finding ways to flank or exploit weaknesses in the naval and terrestrial defense lines
08:26.11TybusenAnd seizing control of important bottlenecks used in the transport of troops or supplies
08:27.08TybusenWormholes were considered super important before because in past eras of Bunsen, wormholes were sometimes the sole lifeline for certain exclaves or outlying territories
08:27.30TybusenAnd losing them meant that the territory on the other side would likely be surrounded by insurmountable enemy forces
08:28.01Charles_Bot^
08:28.37Charles_BotI need to go to bed :(
08:28.37TybusenAnd even today, wormholes are still treated with some level of sanctity, partly because the non-TIAF powers don't have easy access to wormhole engineering
08:28.42TybusenAh yeah
08:28.45TybusenGet some sleep
08:29.06Charles_BotGood night, I hope to talk further later!
08:29.13TybusenYeah, see you later!
08:29.27Charles_BotNight ^.^
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09:46.33Wormy_hi
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09:50.25Wormy_Lol Nigel Farage in bed with Donald Trump http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37177938
10:21.52Liquid_InkSexy
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11:05.51HachimanHi
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11:45.25MonetHello
11:47.32Wormy_Laptophi
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12:30.17JepardiHi
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12:32.03CyrannianHello
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13:36.54ImperiosHi
13:37.21Monethi
13:59.19Wormy_hey
14:05.53MonetSo it's just been released what the GITS cast will look like https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqtTPcRWIAAP4al.jpg
14:06.24NeonPandanot terrible
14:06.42MonetI think they're pretty good aside from Togusa.
14:08.06MonetTogusa's meant to be this youth who obsesses over the 1980s.
14:11.07NeonPandayeah, should be a bit younger
14:11.49NeonPandaMonet: I've also turned my bus fort into a raider camp in preparation for Nuka World
14:12.08MonetI can understand giving Batou eyes- he's the second lead. We need to see his eyes.
14:13.02MonetHumans aren't as flexible with their foreheads as Batou is inthe Anime/Manga
14:14.05MonetSo I'm sort of with the internet - they took potentially one of the most American of the main cast and made him very strongly Japanese.
14:16.00MonetAlso here's Boma https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/iw5thdtazzyx8svhmjjw.jpg
14:16.35MonetIt's largfely due to the image quality but I agree with this gif https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--h_2AzP6f--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/xsljp8jfj9r94r6x3yrk.gif
14:20.50MonetI could live with it, Boma didn't have much of a role in the Anime.
14:26.30NeonPandaalso, aluminium bat putting in work
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14:41.09DrodoAwaytest
14:41.37NeonPandahi
14:44.42DrodoEmpiretest
14:56.01NeonPandayou're functional, it's just a slow night
15:24.24ImperiosNeonPanda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sptmcBhEDo Behold, Russians making a superhero movie
15:26.48NeonPandaso where's the part where they don't pretend to be the avengers? :P
15:31.14ImperiosNOWHERE
15:31.31ImperiosIt's *that* stupid hur
15:33.24ImperiosI just wanted to show how trashy that is
15:38.49Tek0516O.o There was an article calling for an end to this airshow here because they say the jet sounds are too traumatic for refugees.
15:39.18NeonPandanot the worst I've herad
15:39.20NeonPandaheard*
15:40.33DrodoEmpireJeez...
15:40.38DrodoEmpire>.<
15:42.02HachimanNeeds more Watchmen
15:44.04Tek0516Also it's some college student calling for this, not actual refugees. >.>
15:44.16NeonPandaof course it's a college student
15:44.29NeonPandaI imagine one side of their hair is shaved off and the rest has purple highlights
15:45.08DrodoEmpireYeah...
15:46.38Tek0516Some white PhD candidate I think they said.
15:46.59NeonPandaSurprise! Intrigue!
15:47.04MonetSo we have a college student saying that the jets are too traumatic for refugees. Are we sure the student isn't saying this o nthe logic of "war is bad, and these jets are war machines therefore they are bad"
15:47.16DrodoEmpireProbably
15:48.12DrodoEmpireAnd they also probably figure the refugees are just as thin-skinned and fragile as them, and would care about this :p
15:48.38NeonPandaalmost certainly
15:48.42DrodoEmpireIf a refugee complains, or the refugee community at large were to make a complaint, ehh, then maybe they should be heard as with any noise complaint
15:49.07DrodoEmpireBut this is a classic example of taking offense on somebody else's behalf
15:51.44MonetI got thinking about this whole "college is about making a home" - we're talking an institution that charges $11,000 per year, then an extra $3-4000 for accomodation
15:52.07DrodoEmpireIts a cancerous mindset
15:52.23DrodoEmpireHarming a lot of universities and other institutions
15:52.46MonetThey're paying $15,000+ a year to have a safe space.
15:53.22NeonPandaand that safe space is going to evaporate the moment they leave
15:54.10DrodoEmpireAnd while they make that safe-space, they're damaging the integrity of the university or college they're in and disrupting the learning of their peers who aren't quite as coddled
15:55.27MonetI'm with Panda
15:55.53DrodoEmpireOh yeah same
15:55.57MonetThose who knuckle down and get the most out of what universities are supposed to be, that money is an investment
15:57.21MonetMeanwhile the students who campaigned for safe spaces will leave their university with debts of 45-60000+, no job prospects, they've wasted their mnoney
15:57.46DrodoEmpire^
15:57.47Wormy_Imperrios:  Looks so bad, its good
15:58.53Tek0516DrodoEmpire: Apparently calls to shut it down (including by the paper that published this) are nothing new. Lots of people whining about noise. This is just their latest attempt.
15:59.13DrodoEmpireRight
16:00.03ImperiosMonet: I bet noone even asked the refugees
16:01.49MonetImperios: Agreed.
16:02.03MonetThis seems like a PhD student acting like a white knight.
16:02.03Wormy_Hah, reminds me of when a city council in England decided not to put up Christmas decorations encase it upset the Jewish population, and that actually wound up upsetting the Jewish population who felt segregated and even like the lights by this strange multiculturalism where the majority West are once again deciding where and how Jewish people should be treated
16:02.58Wormy_But the same principle is applicable in all sorts of contexts
16:04.27MonetCOme to think of it my university might be seeing the initial effects.
16:04.55MonetLast year, when we were studying postmodernism, we had a guest speaker talk about feminism and the protrayal of women in video games.
16:05.23MonetWait no It was late i nthe year before
16:07.35MonetI remember when it come to discussing essays in groups "the portrayal of women in media and video games" was such a popular essay topic that in the fourth seminar group (which I was in) the lecturer asked for a show of hands for who's writing about feminism.
16:09.34MonetAt the time I didn't think much of it; it was post-easter, Gamergate was still relatively fresh and I think a lot of students were more interested in writing an essay that would get them through.
16:12.25Wormy_Its a funny time when people seem to be at their most apathetic and desensitised to the real important issues in the world.  I think there is almost a consumerist, "hip" thing about a lot of social media and campus activism
16:14.41Wormy_I'm rather alarmed that in France, police could go up to Muslim women wearing 'burkinis' on the beach and forcing them to take off their clothes with an on the spot fine?  Where are the French rallying against that for "Liberté, égalité, fraternité"?  None, instead the woman was verbally assaulted by fellow beachgoers as the police stood by
16:15.38MonetThere's the misconception that Muslim women wear these coverings all the time, even i nthe house.
16:15.41Wormy_I like to think that if that happened in the UK, a million people would turn up to the beach in burkinis, but now I don't think I live in that age where they would anymore
16:19.13MonetI vaguely recall that while Islamic custom requires women to cover up, how much they do is up to the woman, that or her husband.
16:21.58Wormy_There's a lot to be said about how women in Islamic cultures are pressured to cover up, but here is a case of someone in a supposedly free and equal country being forced to take them off.    And as far as I'm aware, she was alone with her daughter
16:23.14Wormy_*are often
16:24.55MonetBoth are equally authoritarian.
16:26.37Wormy_The grain of my concern is apathy
16:26.50MonetDo you think there might be ignorance as to why Muslim women feel they should cover up besides being told to?
16:28.52MonetI get the sneaking feeling that some people imagine these women wear these things while bedding their partners.
16:31.46Wormy_Yes, I have a feeling she was probably forced to take her burkini off because people in those areas have forgotten or ignored the wider context of religious freedom and yes, multicultural tolerance.  It was her choice to wear a burkini, most likely.  Instead its been symbolised as threatening and alien, for which she was punished for
16:36.28MonetI recall this Muslim fashion designer was on the news months ago, she got famous for trying to make the hijab into something that could be stylishly worn and she was asked some very interesting questions like "do you shower wearing your hijab?"
16:41.01Wormy_Assuming it was not trolling, it makes me wonder why in this day and age so much little is known about other cultures in even largely pro-multicultural countries
16:42.03Wormy_I think people are sold on overly simplified views of the world by the media and their own social bubbles
16:42.17Monetbrb
16:42.21Wormy_politicians as well
16:47.58MonetI think you're right, but it might not be soem insidiosu government scheme
16:49.51MonetWhen I browse my economics feed on Quora I see many variations of either "I'm 18, how can I be rich?" or "how do rich people stay rich"
16:50.31MonetWhen I was growing up, it was my mother who taught me money management.
16:50.45Wormy_I don't think its intentional, politicians are people as well, so prone to the same myths and distortions as the public.
16:51.20MonetA lot of people treat Google as the source of infinite knowledge.
16:53.31Wormy_I think an example is the work of Adam Curtis.  He has examined how people in the 20th century became sold on the idea that computers and network-controlled markets could reach stability (the world is complex and dynamic than that really), that such stability would emerge from human action without hierarchiual structure (e.g. California ideology), where everyone would be free
16:53.33MonetSo it might be a number of people have tuned in to using Google to sate their curiosity and to learn. Which makes them vunerable to oversimplifications.
16:56.02Wormy_Instead, people were led to believe these systems had more power than they actually had, and in fact politics and power hadn't gone away.  And then after the recession and great human tragedies happening in the world, people carried on the myth they were machines, mere observers not actors
16:57.00Wormy_Like the case with Google, this viewpoint would have that people put their fauth into systems that make the world seem simpler
16:58.08Wormy_We're surrounded by human tragedies in the world today, but nobody really knows what to do, or even if we should do anything
16:58.09MonetWikipedia - some trust it implicitly, some find it dangerously prone to half-truths.
16:58.18Wormy_Thats how cynical and apathetic people are
17:00.53MonetThe sheer volume of tragedies being reported is feeding the belief that humans are the worst thing to walk the Earth.
17:01.36Wormy_And I think, the belief that we can do nothing
17:02.15Wormy_Except for things that are easy and accessible within one's circle, like the depiction of women in video games.  Not the stoning of women around the world
17:03.48Wormy_Climate change and antimicrobial resistance also loom heavy on the horizon.
17:03.59HachimanWhat's this about human being cynical and apathetic
17:04.03HachimanI can't be bothered to read
17:04.16Wormy_Well, I'm not explaining the media philosophy again
17:04.45Wormy_Also, its more about the culture of apathy, rather than people
17:05.01Wormy_People can and will eventually change imo
17:05.21Wormy_bbl dog walk
17:07.03MonetHachiman: We were discussing what women being forced out of their Burquinis by police to angry beach-goers might say about how society has come to think
17:07.46Wormy_awayAnd how nobody seems to be by and large questioning this
17:08.33Wormy_awayExcept on Twitter
17:09.03MonetIt developed into postulation that the internet, the tide of pessimistic media and modern norms has fostered apathy and oversimplification. Such as assuming that women who wear Muslim headwear wear them everywhere, even to bed or in the shower.
17:09.55Wormy_awaySuch that it became a symbol of negativity that couldn't be tolerated
17:11.56MonetOr perhaps complaining that the .1% get to live extravagantly and do what they like while the complainers are simultaneously curious as to just how wealth is retained outside assuming illegal behaviour.
17:14.43Monet(which funnily enough is also a source of negativity and intolerance)
17:20.55MonetMaybe I was influenced by news of exam results being handed to students.
17:22.00MonetSchools today press that school results will determine your future.
17:22.35MonetI got a D in GCSE IT yet here I am coding navboxes and scripting 3D animations.
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17:31.51Monethi
17:37.08DrodoEmpireHi
17:52.19Wormy_<PROTECTED>
17:52.45Wormy_*never get to university without GCSE's
17:53.05Wormy_I *did* do open university courses though, instead
17:53.37Wormy_Not only cheaper, they can add up into a degree if you do enough of them
17:57.41Wormy_There's so much more to a job or university and application than array of certificates and skills.  Personality, enthusiasm (but perhaps not to ridiculous levels), even your interests all count.  They don't teach that in school
17:57.54Wormy_*job or university application
17:58.27Wormy_Or rather, don't foster it (since they are development skills I guess)
17:59.04Wormy_Schools pressure pupils to pass, and its partly from government pressure
18:00.46Wormy_Sadly it isnot working so well because some college lecturers I've spoken to are getting students fresh out of school who can't read or write and show little interest in expanding their horizons.
18:01.11Wormy_Though it depends on region
18:01.40Wormy_Said students also take criticism to a personal level.
18:02.11MonetYeah not good.
18:02.40Wormy_To be fair I'm not talking about everyone, my experience of students from different subjects on courses I studied on had quite different personalities.
18:03.28Wormy_because they were from different regions and attracted different types of people
18:05.25MonetYeah. There are still some who will succeed coming out of university.
18:08.30Wormy_I think these problems run deep.  Brought up with a lack of criticism, monocoddling, no wonder people care so much about their 'safe spaces' (although I'm not against raising awareness about offensive norms and language).  But I feel sorry for our generation, we're moving out of homes older, student fees and I think living costs are far more expensive, the recession hit hard.  And the myth that the world feels helplessly shit feel
18:09.04Wormy_with the role of media and the confusion of social networks
18:13.45MonetYou got cut off with 'shit feee'
18:14.09Wormy_In a way, what we need is more, not less criticism of language and language games.  But at an honest, critical level of discussion
18:14.26Wormy_*And the myth that the world feels helplessly shit feels ever prescient
18:18.13Wormy_I think that's what disappoints me about Corbyn most of all.  At least if you are going to campaign for re-nationalising the rail, at least be honest.  Instead he used an opportunity to bolster his image to his supporters.  And it fell flat on his face!
18:19.18Wormy_We don't want positive dreams anymore than we want cynical nightmares
18:20.31Wormy_Since the mid 20th century optimism falls way short of its prophesies and once again makes the population feel hopeless
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18:22.10MonetHi
18:22.51MonetWormy_: Yeah. The internet has broadened horizons, but also shows how scary the world feels.
18:23.43Wormy_I remember back in 2011  during the Arab spring I really began to believe that social networks were bringing the downfall of tyranny.
18:24.15Wormy_And while it did organise people, it created even worst tyranny and civil war
18:24.54MonetI think we all learned that when tyrants fall, there's no guarantee a stable democracy will emerge. Especially where democracy is unfamiliar
18:25.08Wormy_Even David Cameron praised the power of the social network, and then later called for networks to be shut down after the England riots (lol)
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18:25.22Wormy_-during the riots
18:25.27Wormy_hi
18:25.31The_RandomnessHello
18:26.48Wormy_Monet:  And if you look at what people were saying in the 90's about the internet, they had grander dreams than the reality of it.  They didn't predict how consumerist it became, and how distorting media was
18:27.08Wormy_They saw it as the end of both
18:27.26MonetWe might be seeing the same with augmented reality.
18:28.55MonetPokemon Go made people much more sociable, but in their pursuits to catch 'em all, people were crashing their cars, trespassing, developing tribal mindsets due to the team systems (plenty of people calling Team Mystic 'special' in particular), even reports of muggers setting up lures and PokeStops.
18:33.01Wormy_I remember seeing on the web people stopping their cars with the doors still open en-masse at Central Park.
18:33.18Wormy_To catch some Pokemon
18:36.35MonetThat was fun.
18:38.55Wormy_On a less depressing note, Stephen Baxter's written a quick article speculating on what life might be like on Proxima b https://www.newscientist.com/article/2102268-if-earth-like-planet-proxima-b-has-life-what-might-it-be-like/?utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=ILC&utm_campaign=webpush&cmpid=ILC%257CNSNS%257C2016-GLOBAL-webpush-lifeonpproxima
18:39.45DrodoEmpireOh cool
18:40.55The_RandomnessWormy_: I feel like you're fixating on the negative there. I've heard stories about parks known for drug deals and such turning into pleasant places again due to them being swarmed by people playing Pokemon Go.
18:41.21Wormy_Yes, there *are* positives to social media.
18:41.47Wormy_I'll post the whole discussion we had, it gives context
18:42.19Wormy_We're not criticising social media but highlighting an aspect of culture it has created that isn't very productive.
18:42.43The_RandomnessAh alright
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18:43.36The_Randomnessfreenode y
18:44.19Wormy_if pastie will work, that is
18:44.28Charles_MurrayImperios
18:44.34ImperiosHm?
18:44.45Charles_MurrayGreek politics during WWI
18:44.47Charles_MurrayHoly frick
18:44.48Charles_Murrayhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaeTv0GzjIc
18:47.13Imperios>Eleftherios
18:47.21ImperiosSo his name was literally "Freedom"
18:49.09ImperiosCharles_Murray: <REMOVE KEBAB/GYROS INTENSIFIES>
18:49.39Charles_BotLol
18:51.51Monethttp://www.techradar.com/us/news/wearables/space-is-the-next-frontier-for-vr-thanks-to-this-satellite-1326253?src=rss&attr=all
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18:57.11Tek0516Charles_Murray: Oh hey, I've been watching that series
18:59.41Wormy_Looks exciting monet
19:01.13Tek0516Monet: Now I just need VR in time. XD
19:01.41Wormy_Maybe one day people will control little vehicles to move about on the Moon or even further and take point cloud snapshots for VR telepresence.  There would be a time day of course, but if it maps enough detail it might be worth it
19:02.15Wormy_*a time delay
19:03.06Wormy_Geologists are already doing this on the Earth
19:04.16dino82_hi all
19:07.56MonetNice
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19:13.02Xhomeow
19:13.14XhoHachiman: You checked the new Meshuggah single
19:13.57*** join/#sporewiki OluapPlayer (b164ff46@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.100.255.70)
19:13.57*** mode/#sporewiki [+o OluapPlayer] by ChanServ
19:14.02Xhoups
19:14.09OluapPlayerack
19:14.13MonetHi
19:18.56XhoSo Meshuggah released a new single
19:18.58XhoXho is now happy Xho
19:19.21XhoThe lyrics perfectly fit the Xhodocto as well
19:19.22Xhotis funny
19:19.55OluapPlayerMoshoggoh
19:20.09Xhohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtO3VCu5wv4 heavier than a black hole
19:22.03OluapPlayer2heavy4me
19:22.20XhoIt's pretty heavy even for Meshuggah
19:23.57OluapPlayerSounds good though. Not to big into heavy metal but sounds good
19:24.35Xhomeshuggah is <3
19:25.15Hachiman>heavy metal
19:25.18Hachimanits deff metal u dingus
19:25.25HachimanAlso yeah, I like it a lot
19:25.46XhoStudio monitors make it so much better as well
19:25.49XhoMy room shakes
19:26.07OluapPlayerMost metal genres sound the same to me
19:26.22XhoHeavy Metal is actually like the lightest metal genre
19:26.25Xhowhich is funny
19:26.36OluapPlayerdun make sense dat
19:26.41OluapPlayerAlso http://dukenukem.com/index/ BALLS OF STEEL
19:27.44XhoEvidently 21 years old is not old enough
19:28.16MonetDeath metal's pretty heavy.
19:28.26Monet...I think
19:28.30OluapPlayerI'd say it can't be any worse than Duke Nukem Forever
19:28.43OluapPlayerBut at this point, I'm willing to believe in anything
19:28.48XhoI don't know of many bands heavier than Meshuggah though
19:28.56ImperiosXho: What about power metal?
19:28.59XhoSunn O))) might qualify
19:28.59ImperiosI'd say it's lighte
19:29.00Imperiosr
19:29.05Imperios>O)))
19:29.12XhoOh yeah power metal and hair metal are light
19:29.16ImperiosWhy the Russian smileys?
19:29.19OluapPlayerhair metal
19:29.25OluapPlayerWhat the fuck
19:29.35Xhohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5P7bo5hKgQ&list=PLwPBM4hpb3mOo0eD4N-dMMtjYnMQ-6M0z Sunn O))) is literally the sound of the void
19:29.40HachimanHair metal, as in, things like Kiss
19:29.53HachimanOr bands that have taken after their image
19:30.05OluapPlayerIs it because of their long hair?
19:30.08Xhoyup
19:30.13OluapPlayerThat's a goddamn stupid name for a music genre hur
19:30.21HachimanHair metal in general is stupid hur
19:30.35XhoThat is the general idea of the genre
19:30.40HachimanAnd yeah, Sunn O))) is heavier than Meshuggah; although I can guarantee that most, if not all, grindcore stuff is heavier than Meshuggah
19:30.53XhoThey do borderline on to noise though
19:31.01HachimanGrindcore is far too heavy for me to appreciate
19:31.03XhoMeshuggah is probably as heavy as it gets before getting weird
19:31.37OluapPlayergrowls so heavy they crush the listener
19:31.39Hachiman55Gore is like the heaviest band that I know of
19:31.46HachimanAnd I can't listen to them
19:31.48XhoNot sure what the heaviest Meshuggah song is though; Bleed probably
19:31.52HachimanDue to being extremely heavy grindcore
19:32.11Xhohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4GXNzom6ik Also an absolute dick rhythmically
19:32.37OluapPlayerI'm shit when it comes to music since I prefer to listen to instrumental tracks
19:32.41XhoIt was so hard to do in the studio it took them roughly the same amount of time to record as they did all the other songs on the album together
19:32.49XhoOluapPlayer: You'd like Animals As Leaders then
19:33.00MonetI'll stick with my old rock bands.
19:33.03OluapPlayerAnimals As Leaders
19:33.08OluapPlayerThat's SporeWIki in a nutshell
19:33.11Hachimanhur
19:33.19HachimanThat reminds me
19:33.22Xhowell ur not wrong
19:33.29HachimanI'm gonna be probably unavailable this weekend
19:33.37Xhou dik
19:33.39OluapPlayerYou're always unavailable
19:33.47HachimanMy friend is playing his last gig at the pub before he leaves for university in September
19:33.50XhoOluapPlayer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSVwcRcMIk
19:33.55MonetWelcome to the first world.
19:34.08HachimanIt's a two day, whole weekend metal experience with a line-up of eight bands over the course of two nights
19:34.34DrodoEmpireOh cool
19:35.34OluapPlayerXho: Wow that sounds great
19:35.45XhoAnimals As Leaders in general is a great band
19:35.51XhoAll of their tracks are instrumentals so
19:35.55Xholisten to them
19:36.14OluapPlayerI'm somewhat confused by the idea of a band that makes music without lyrics
19:36.14XhoIf you want more digital sounding stuff check out their first album
19:36.21XhoThey're jazz influenced
19:36.27XhoJazz is mostly instrumental as a genre
19:36.36XhoOr non-lexical at least
19:36.57Xhohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jXQOIbIAsY This is my favourite song off the first album
19:37.24OluapPlayer"hey guys let's do a karaoke"       "Next up: Animals As Leaders"
19:37.32XhoBearing in mind that the entire instrumental is on the guitar basically means the guitarist is insane
19:38.17MonetOluapPlayer: "band that makes music without lyrics" it's a stretch but that's a good description of an orchestra
19:38.42XhoThere are lots of instrumental bands
19:38.53XhoIt's not a mainstream trend granted but still
19:39.52XhoI can kinda play that song on guitar
19:39.54XhoOr bits of it
19:40.00XhoAnimals As Leaders is 11/10 hard
19:40.17OluapPlayerrip fingers
19:40.22MonetAlthough an orchestra might not count due to structural differences.
19:40.43OluapPlayerOrchestras aren't a mainstream thing
19:40.48OluapPlayerAt least not over here
19:40.52XhoDepends on what genre
19:40.56XhoSymphonic metal is a thing
19:43.47MonetOluapPLayer: Well you said you listen to a lot of instrumental music.
19:43.55Xhoyeah boiiii
19:44.05MonetA lot of video game music is created by an orchestra
19:44.26OluapPlayerXho: also dat track gud
19:45.22MonetThe Halo theme and Dovahkiin are good examples, probably a lot of Dark Souls' tunes.
19:45.42OluapPlayerDark Souls music is very orchestral yeah
19:45.45XhoMonet: Granted if you have Native Instruments addons you can have your own orchestra on a computer
19:46.11OluapPlayerBut that's the thing with me, I generally just listen to videogame music, not the stuff generally made by bands for the public
19:47.14MonetXho: Dats cheetin
19:47.41MonetOluapPLayer: I'm the same.
19:49.55MonetI listen to stuff produced by Two Steps from Hell regularly, and their primary avenue is music for advertising.
19:51.21Tek0516DrodoEmpire: "Timbits Poutine". You can almost taste the Canadian in the name
19:52.22NeonPandaneeds more maple
19:53.00Xhoeh
19:54.39DrodoEmpireTek0516: ohgod what
19:54.49DrodoEmpireI'll need to head down to a Tim's to see that >.<
19:55.15DrodoEmpireOr whereever they decide to sell that monstrosity
19:55.18Xhohttp://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/940/559/e5f.jpg
19:55.42DrodoEmpireOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH
19:55.44DrodoEmpire<.<
19:55.50Tek0516DrodoEmpire: CNE exclusive. This place has crazy food
19:56.00DrodoEmpireAhh
19:56.59OluapPlayerFunny because I just spent around 6 hours playing GTA: SA nonstop
19:57.33OluapPlayerI still think whoever decided to add rhythm-minigame-based missions in the game deserves a very stern yelling
19:58.01Tek0516Next to it sells stuff like a glazed donut cheeseburger, a churro cheeseburger, and waffles with fried chicken
19:58.05OluapPlayerI remember those making me furious back when I was younger
19:58.46DrodoEmpireJeez....
19:59.18OluapPlayerStill it's like a whole new experience now that I'm playing with a full grasp of the english langauge. I can actually tell what's going on
19:59.23OluapPlayerlanguage even
19:59.52MonetIts a very different experience.
20:00.04XhoYou have to speak English natively to almost understand it kek
20:00.16OluapPlayerWhen I first played it I was like, 15 or so
20:00.22MonetWHen I first played GTA III I don't think I was well aware of what Smack was.
20:00.39OluapPlayerAll I knew was "black guys in green = good. Black guys in purple = bad"
20:00.45Xhoballas
20:00.51OluapPlayeru a busta
20:01.02XhoLatino guys in yellow = also bad
20:01.06Monet<PROTECTED>
20:01.08OluapPlayerYes that too
20:02.52OluapPlayerhttp://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/153/007/aeb.jpg
20:02.54MonetOne thing I recall not realising until an adult playthrough was why Ryder dug so many holes in his garden.
20:03.30MonetThen I was 18 and realised he was looking for a buried stash of weed or something.
20:03.56OluapPlayerYeah I never understood that until I replayed that mission today
20:07.08OluapPlayerhttp://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/568/053/063.jpg clever
20:08.01MonetI wanted to kill Ryder for the number of times he called me a buster. And that was before getting kicked out of LS.
20:08.10*** join/#sporewiki Groxkiller98 (520393e3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.3.147.227)
20:08.31Groxkiller98Heya.
20:08.57Groxkiller98Can I get peoples opinions on something a tad petty for my fiction?
20:09.09Groxkiller98Antimatter or Nuclear Drives?
20:10.00Groxkiller98For both conventional engines and Hyperdrive engines...
20:10.59MonetNuclear as in nuclear fission? Or fusion?
20:11.23Groxkiller98Which ever is better.
20:12.33XhoFusion usually
20:12.36XhoI think
20:12.43MonetFusion then - nuclear fission won't generate enough and hampers propulsion by way of the several tonnes of shielding you need to make it safe to work around.
20:12.55Groxkiller98Well, Anti-Matter, or Nuclear Fission?
20:13.01Groxkiller98Fusion*
20:13.51Groxkiller98Both have pros and con (expense, effect, danger, ect). I want to know what would be best.
20:16.36Groxkiller98Also... I'm thinking of having a Teyan Civil war ongoing... Not sure how I'd handle it, though.
20:16.36MonetAs i nenergy output?
20:16.42Groxkiller98Yeah.
20:16.50MonetAntimatter might be best
20:17.21MonetThe amount of energy you can get out is e = mc2/2
20:19.38GhelaeAntimatter definitely provides the most energy output, although input (e.g. making and storing the antimatter) is another matter.
20:19.45XhoHachiman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLQQI1_cqWA PEANUT BUTTER AND JELLY
20:20.30Groxkiller98Yeah. Anti-matter is kinda expensive.
20:21.00Groxkiller98Even Antihydrogen is considerably more expensive than uranium, and that's the cheapest Antiparticle we know off.
20:21.17Groxkiller98Or Antielement, anyway.
20:21.32GhelaeIf you have some of the more advanced SporeWikiverse technology, like Q-balls and monopoles, it should become a lot cheaper.
20:21.45Tek0516And swords are cheaper than guns. Cheaper isn't better.
20:22.33DrodoEmpire^
20:22.34Groxkiller98True
20:22.36GhelaeNo, but we've already said that antimatter is a more effective propellant than fusion.
20:22.48DrodoEmpireMost civilised powers use antimatter, or Andasium
20:22.51DrodoEmpireUsually both
20:22.59GhelaeStoring it isn't a problem when you can create it on demand either.
20:23.03Groxkiller98But there's the question of it's it's affordable for the Mithadorn. Or at least cost-effective.
20:23.43Groxkiller98They'd probably struggle to support fuelling fleets with Antimatter... But would likely be able to just do so...
20:24.11GhelaeYour cost is primarily going to be making and storing the Q-balls or monopoles, if you have the technology. In either case they are catalysts rather than reactants, but you still need a lot of them.
20:24.24dino82_bye bye
20:24.26Groxkiller98I have no idea what a Q-ball is.
20:24.33DrodoEmpirebye
20:24.37Groxkiller98And Monopoles aren't something the Mithadorn know how to use.
20:24.38Groxkiller98Bai.
20:25.30GhelaeQ-balls and monopoles are kind of opposites to each other (the namesake property of monopoles, their magnetic charge, isn't relevant for their antimatter production).
20:26.17Groxkiller98It might be easier to just import the Antimatter from you then. :P
20:26.31Groxkiller98Because I couldn't figure out how to make that work.
20:27.29GhelaeIn each case, they're based around a scalar field, like the Higgs. In monopoles, it's a field whose value is nonzero throughout the vacuum but becomes zero in the core, while for Q-balls, it's the other way around.
20:27.41MonetIf it's not cost-effective to make there's always importing it.
20:27.49MonetOr looking for investors to set up factories.
20:28.03Monetor distribution branches
20:29.20Groxkiller98Oh, btw, I'm developing a new Flagship. :P
20:29.23GhelaeIn monopoles, the absence of the Higgs-like field in the core means that the particles which convert quarks to antileptons become massless, so the rate at which they make protons decay increases. In Q-balls, the field interacts directly with the fermions and absorbs any excess charge.
20:29.28GhelaeIn case you were wondering.
20:29.37Groxkiller98After my last one was blown up in the Mithadorn-Xilic-Draecorran war.
20:29.46XhoHachiman: Trying to think of a quote for Vaxal but all I can think of is abusive Xhodocto quotes
20:29.55Groxkiller98XD
20:31.55XhoOluapPlayer: pls do something about zagdala breek
20:32.23OluapPlayerI don't intend to
20:32.35XhoNOOH
20:36.32XhoI think Angazhar would admire the Accursed Quinquennium
20:36.53XhoIn his hateful way
20:38.34Groxkiller98Does Titan's Mercy sound like a good name for a military Flagship?
20:38.51XhoSounds pretty good to me
20:40.40Groxkiller98It's gonna have a massive moon-cracking plasma cannon on the front.
20:40.55Groxkiller98The kind that could make one thing twice about flying in-front of it.
20:45.29Groxkiller98The gun barrel is about four miles long as well, powered by twenty reactors.
20:48.55Groxkiller98Say, could someone help me write a civil-war for the Teyan. An ongoing one.
20:49.42*** join/#sporewiki Charles_Murray (32b8eef8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.184.238.248)
20:49.52MonetWhy so many reacotrs?
20:50.02MonetWhat about one or two big reactors?
20:50.22Groxkiller98They're all big reactors.
20:50.32Groxkiller98It's moon-cracking, planet-killing.
20:50.35Groxkiller98OVERKILL!
20:50.56MonetEh, can't argue with a big-stick weapon.
20:52.50Groxkiller98It's the "Get out of the way, or I blow you a new-one" gun!
20:52.59Tek0516O.O It was raining so hard this building had waterfalls coming off the roof.
20:53.19Groxkiller98Though officially, the cannon is known as "The Moon Cracker"
20:53.29Groxkiller98Or, "Titan's Fury"
20:54.44Groxkiller98Call it what you want, it's designed to be overkill.
20:55.08Charles_MurrayFrance - Not sure that'll actually be useful
20:56.08Groxkiller98XD
20:56.31Groxkiller98Mithadorn - Don't care! It makes things go boom!
20:57.10Tek0516FTC - We'll just annihilate it with a fleet of battleships that cost the same.
20:58.01Charles_MurrayFrance - y even battleships when you can use a small fleet of fighters which cost even less
20:58.20MonetCharles_Murray: As I mentioned it sounds like a big stick policy
20:58.25Tek0516FTC - Actually, f*** it. Just blast them with Angelfire from a few systems away
20:58.33Monet"you guys have nukes, well we built a bigger nuke!"
20:58.44Charles_MurrayMonet That's not how it works >.<
20:59.10Charles_MurrayBig stick policy is not just about bigger guns, it's also about those guns being capable of being used in real combat
20:59.14Groxkiller98XD
20:59.25Groxkiller98Well, I'll point it at your homeworld. Then what?
20:59.34Groxkiller98It's like a ranged-planetbuster.
20:59.35Charles_MurrayYou have to get there first
20:59.39MonetYeah
20:59.47Groxkiller98Well, it's capable of firing over Lightyears of distance.
20:59.54MonetHow many
21:00.06Groxkiller98About thirty.
21:00.34Groxkiller98It's not meant to be practical. Just overkill. :P
21:00.38MonetPermission to laugh out loud, sir!
21:00.39XhoKicath - fukn
21:00.44DrodoEmpireThen at best its an oversized angelfire >.<
21:00.46Charles_MurrayThat's a third of a galaxy, and implies that it would take thirty years to get to its target
21:01.01Charles_MurrayWell no, since you can move in thirty years lol
21:01.13XhoNeeds hyperspatial missles pronto
21:01.29MonetCharles: Make that a three-thousanth of a galaxy.
21:01.35Charles_MurrayOh whoops
21:01.46Charles_Murray30,000 is a third, my bad
21:02.14Tek0516Why bust a planet when you can annihilate their entire military capacity with thousands of missiles? :P
21:02.29Charles_MurrayThere were only three battles involving battleships throughout history, but every single nation was working extremely hard to develop and become proficient at battleship tactics just in case a battle between their huge honking (and ultimately useless) big sticks actually happened
21:02.41DrodoEmpireIt'd be a terrifying terror weapon, surely
21:02.43DrodoEmpireBut not practical
21:03.08Groxkiller98Well, scaring your enemy shitless always works, no?
21:03.10dromWhat did I run into now? :o
21:03.15DrodoEmpireIt can
21:03.20DrodoEmpireMorale's always been important
21:03.24Groxkiller98"Get lost, before I point my overcompensating, overkill weapon at you."
21:03.28Charles_MurrayGroxkiller98: For strategic deterrence, I'd go with guided FTL hyperspatial cruise missiles carrying a nuclear payload
21:03.32dromAnyway. Had I been pinged while I was away?
21:03.53MonetCharles_Murray: That's why Draocnid doctrine fits their battleships with artillery capability
21:04.02dromMy IRC bouncer isn't the best sort. So I'd like to know if anyone tried to get me while I was away.
21:04.05Groxkiller98Charles_Murray: It's not meant to be practical or useful. It's just meant to be big and flashy.
21:04.12XhoWhy not destroy the entire galaxy via gridfire
21:04.18Xhothat way no one complains
21:04.23Xhocause they're dead
21:04.35dromAll expect the Xhodocto
21:04.37Charles_MurrayGroxkiller98 : Won't take 30 years to get anywhere, and will be able to hit targets not 30 ly away, but a whole galaxy away if you have the infrastructure for it
21:04.43Tek0516Charles_Murray: Didn't the WWI powers spent most of the war trying *not* to use their battleships too. :P
21:04.46dromBecause they have no more toys to play with, Xho.
21:04.53XhoHachiman: Apparently the track called Clockworks on the new Meshuggah album is complex enough that it took them at least 50 takes in rehearsal and 20 takes in the studio
21:04.58MonetGroxKiller: Part of what made nukes such a threat was they were a somewhat viable weapon. They were expensive but the first ones could be dropped like bombs.
21:05.06Groxkiller98The Mithadorn aren't exactly the whole of Andromeda. XD
21:05.19Charles_MurrayTek0516: More complicated than that
21:05.30Groxkiller98The gun is just meant to be flashy, guys. Stop poking holes in it!
21:06.03DrodoEmpireAs well, weapons that annihilate a world in such a way are banned under the Declaration of the Conduct of War, which had been adopted as the framework for the UGA's war laws I do believe
21:06.07DrodoEmpireAssuming you're part of the UGA
21:06.18DrodoEmpireWell you admit its impractical, but a terror weapon
21:06.21DrodoEmpireFair enough I guess
21:06.24Charles_MurrayRight, but the next time the Mithadorn come into contact with a navy that actually uses its resources sensibly and efficiently, good luck
21:06.31XhoGroxkiller98: Welcome to SporeWiki, where science trolls everything
21:06.36MonetWe're making holes because "because it's cool" can only get you so far in war.
21:06.42DrodoEmpireXho: Military science anyway
21:06.58*** join/#sporewiki ZF101 (4933de11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.51.222.17)
21:07.12DrodoEmpireThough seriously guys
21:07.12Groxkiller98I'm pretty sure it's not even scientifically possible to power, anyway.
21:07.17DrodoEmpireStop dogpiling
21:07.20DrodoEmpireOh its certainly possible
21:07.32Groxkiller98It's a big, flashy gun. It's not meant to work effectively. XD
21:07.39DrodoEmpireGroxkiller isn't saying its a practical weapon of war its more for terror reasons
21:07.40DrodoEmpireYeah
21:07.47Groxkiller98I doubt I could actually powerful.
21:07.50MonetPeople won't be scared if it's not at least marginally effective.
21:07.52Groxkiller98power it*
21:08.04Groxkiller98Well, there's the fact it can split a moon apart.
21:08.04DrodoEmpireMonet: Ehh, civilians and news media are irrational though
21:08.11Charles_MurrayAnd the wiki's resident PS student is saying that it would be useless for terror purposes
21:08.15DrodoEmpireIt could be used to bully powers smaller than the Mithadorn
21:08.17Xhohttp://genius.com/Meshuggah-born-in-dissonance-lyrics All I'm saying is that the new Meshuggah song has Xhodocto lyrics in it
21:08.25Groxkiller98"It blows moons up?! Don't poss them off!"
21:08.28Groxkiller98piss*
21:08.40ZF101Hello all.
21:09.10ZF101So, it looks like I'm not alone in wanting to blow up the moon. Good.
21:09.44Charles_MurrayBecause for something to have any value for deterrence ("terror, it should actually be conceivable that it could be used to harm someone or something dear to the person being deterred.
21:09.49MonetEh maybe we should cut Groxkiller some slack. Sporewiki does have a Death Starkiller Base.
21:10.02DrodoEmpireYes
21:10.03DrodoEmpireWe should
21:10.22ImperiosDrodoEmpire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbegXXI0RFg
21:10.27Charles_MurrayAlright
21:11.32XhoI don't like the necessity for scientific explanation on this wiki
21:11.43XhoIt's sci-fi yes but the amount of thought put into it is not fun
21:11.44Groxkiller98I just like big guns. :P
21:11.50ImperiosWhat are we talking about?
21:11.51DrodoEmpireThere's a degree of rule of cool I like
21:11.51MonetXho: We're nerds.
21:12.04Xhohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8
21:12.07DrodoEmpireGroxkiller98: That's fine, and you recognise the drawbacks
21:12.13Groxkiller98^_^
21:12.49Groxkiller98Still, don't give the Mithadorn to make it's next shot hit you - It may be hugely impractical, but it still works. Ish.
21:13.51Groxkiller98Now, that makes two Flagships. Titan's Mercy, and The Horizon.
21:14.15MonetXho: Nerd and proud.
21:14.20Groxkiller98They're also supermassive spaceships. :P
21:14.23Xhofair
21:14.32XhoI'm a nerd to some degree
21:14.50Groxkiller98Like, as big as Darth Vader's Super-Star-Destroyer.
21:14.51XhoI downplay it a lot with a lot of swearing
21:14.57Groxkiller98XD
21:15.16MonetActually that NEEEERD joke is hilarious because I've been in university three years, geek about anime and comics and that's -never- happened to me.
21:15.36XhoThe nerd trope is probably at its most accepted now
21:15.55MonetThat or everyone's a nerd of some degree at university.
21:15.59XhoProbably
21:16.00Groxkiller98XD
21:16.14XhoYou need to be some sort of intelligent to be at university in the first place
21:16.19Groxkiller98Oh, also, all the Mithadorn starship tech comes in part from the Draekar Remenant's now.
21:16.36XhoOr at least have the academic system down to a T
21:16.46MonetXho: Intelligent and wanting to learn.
21:16.48Groxkiller98Because of the whole war with them. The Mithadorn got a load of sweet military loot.
21:17.02XhoI don't necessarily believe that academia translates to actual intelligence although it does show a capacity to learn
21:17.29XhoUniversity sort of challenges that belief but I haven't been to university so
21:17.36MonetLike a lot of the slackers die out at university level because it's just not worth the money to attend university and coast your classes.
21:17.59Groxkiller98I'm not very academic.
21:18.11Groxkiller98But apparently I'm also a know-it-all. >_>
21:18.14XhoI'm good at academics but I hate education
21:18.31MonetAnd yeah, university demonstrates the difference between being knowledgeable and being intelligent.
21:18.35XhoIt's all humdrum to me
21:19.24XhoSitting down and reading or listening to a teacher or lecturer is not the way I like to learn
21:19.31MonetLike even in academic courses you'll be writing a dissertation. Or if you're doing a doctorate, a thesis.
21:19.45Tek0516Some of my first year classes had half the peoplecdisappear by the end so even there it filters out a lot.
21:20.08MonetWait or would that more be significant for vocational courses?
21:20.32MonetTek0516: Yeah the end of the first year is when most people disappear.
21:21.00MonetXho: Depends on what you want to do.
21:21.12XhoI guess
21:21.22XhoI have no real direction though
21:21.31XhoEverything I do ends up boring me
21:21.37MonetDoing animation, I have only one lecture a week, a couple of workshops, most of my stuff is personal project work.
21:22.07Groxkiller98Ever animated Spore?
21:22.25MonetSpore is baby stuff compared to what I do.
21:22.31Groxkiller98XD
21:22.47MonetI actually made a showreel the other day if you want an idea of what I do.
21:23.11XhoI would like to do things related to music although I have no creative outlet and therefore it's a wasted element
21:23.21XhoEverything else is uninteresting
21:23.39Monet<PROTECTED>
21:24.00dromCharles_Murray Monet Wormy_: I'm thinking about rewriting/restarting NS as a different fiction with equal technology, but adapted to a more hard level of sci-fi.
21:24.03Groxkiller98I think my Spore account has been hacked... Someone has changed my password...
21:25.33Monetdrom: OKay
21:26.30Groxkiller98https://s10.postimg.io/opol9lkl5/Admiral_Hael_Deur.png
21:27.42Groxkiller98Is that a cool pic? :3
21:27.49dromGoing to enjoy deleting any instance of "world-destroying" weapons and non-centrifugal artifical gravity in my fiction.
21:28.48Groxkiller98XD
21:28.51dromAnyway, Wormy_. I came to think of something
21:30.01dromSince I've been enrolled to this university. I've to take the bus and ride it for one hour straight to the nearest train station that has a train rolling between said seat of education and that station.
21:30.08dromThe train ride takes one hour, too.
21:30.24dromThen bus from the station to the uni
21:30.28dromTen minutes.
21:31.01dromLet's see, total travel time, not counting waiting. Two hours and ten minutes.
21:31.43dromOh, I forgot that I've to walk twenty minutes between my home and bus stop. Because life out in the country.
21:32.25dromAdd the average additional time spent on waiting: half a hour.
21:32.26Groxkiller98D: I can't even request a password reset!
21:32.53dromTotal time spent on travel from my home to university: three hours
21:33.10dromDouble that when going back to home
21:36.16dromSix hours spent on travelling, every day I have to or have to go to the university.
21:36.24Groxkiller98I've actually lost my Spore account... :'(
21:36.47dromFor instance today, I did so to only wait and attend a 2 hour lecture on mathematics
21:36.53dromThen go home
21:37.08MonetXho: So is music the only thing you find yourself consistently enjoying?
21:37.14XhoMore or less
21:37.25Xho99.9% of my gripe with existence is the people I'm surrounded with
21:37.57XhoA big part of me wants to move away from Southampton and make new friends somewhere else
21:38.06XhoOr a big reset button
21:38.08MonetUniversity can do that for you.
21:38.11MonetWorked for me.
21:38.26XhoI'm gonna have to wait until next year now
21:38.42DrodoEmpireGroxkiller98: Nobody's interested in hacking anything related to Spore anymore >.< Restart the game, make sure there's nothing wrong with your internet, make sure you got the right password and email, try again
21:38.51DrodoEmpireMake sure the servers are up
21:38.58Groxkiller98It's my password...
21:39.11Groxkiller98And I can't get an email sent to reset it.
21:39.17DrodoEmpireShit happens mate
21:39.21Groxkiller98Because I keep getting internal server errors.
21:39.32DrodoEmpireFollow my instructions, and check the state of spore server
21:39.33DrodoEmpire*s
21:39.41Tek0516Well inthat cases there's obviously server problems.
21:39.45Groxkiller98How?
21:39.59Groxkiller98I've been unable to log in for more than a month now. >_>
21:40.12dromWho needs sporepedia anyway?
21:40.12Groxkiller98I've only just bothered looking into it being my password...
21:40.21Monet<PROTECTED>
21:40.26Tek0516Then contact EA directly.
21:40.27dromYou can still share them manually.
21:40.27Groxkiller98I would like my Sporepedia.
21:40.34Monet<PROTECTED>
21:40.35Xhooh god
21:40.51Tek0516They have a customer support exactly for this reason. :P
21:40.59XhoWell I'm not a fan of anyone in Southampton including my family
21:41.17XhoNot including my immediate family that is
21:41.24Monet<PROTECTED>
21:41.36Groxkiller98Also, the Sporum is giving me a captcha now. Is that usual?
21:41.37XhoAnything outside of it are weird and rather horrible human beings
21:42.03DrodoEmpireDunno, roll with it Grox
21:42.11Groxkiller98Ugh. I'm going to bed.
21:42.18DrodoEmpireAlright...?
21:42.25MonetI'll ahve a look but many universities hold student fairs around this time of year
21:42.26Tek0516I only know two of people in my entire graduating class (~500 people) who went to the same university as me.
21:42.32DrodoEmpireDOn't take it out on us, just trying to help
21:43.00XhoBy the looks of things if I do go to a music-based uni I have to do an audition
21:43.16Monetah
21:43.23Tek0516Groxkiller98: Just contact EA's customer support directly and ask for help. AFAIK there's both a phone and live digital option.
21:43.39MonetXho: What about a career in sound design?
21:43.45XhoHm
21:43.47Xhonot bad idea
21:44.50XhoThing is, if I do go to a music uni there isn't that much they could teach me
21:45.03XhoTheoretically speaking I'm quite well versed
21:45.36MonetYeah there's not much they can offer at your stage. Aside from perhaps helping you become a performer.
21:46.00MonetDunno how confident you are at putting yourself out there.
21:46.30XhoWell I'm not too bad with stage performances
21:46.36XhoI've been told I have some stage presence before
21:47.03XhoFrom what I'm checking through forums about levels of theoretical knowledge I'm quite far beyond that standard
21:47.23MonetCreative colleges can also help students land contacts.
21:48.06XhoThat's my main reasoning for going
21:48.20XhoHopefully a contact base would assist me in life to some point
21:48.35Xho"Obviously make sure you're savvy with your pentatonics and your CAGED chords and you'll be fine."
21:48.39Xho>pentatonics
21:50.21MonetEvery year my course leader holds a tombola of prizes he gathers by pulling strings with former clients or people he knows. Prizes can range from limited edition items, to work experience placements, free online subscriptions, in my first year a £1000 cintiq drawing tablet was on offer.
21:50.36Xhonoice
21:51.42MonetAll stuff he managed to get by industry people he knew
21:52.07MonetMy mum has always told me that success can often be to do with who you know.
21:52.53XhoI'd agree
21:54.01XhoAt the university I'm looking at I do have a chance of studying in Germany
21:54.12XhoAlthough with the current European crisis probably a bad idea
21:54.53ImperiosHerr Xho
21:54.58MonetDo your research on alumni. VIsit campuses.
21:55.25MonetYou might not be able to start until next year but it's never too early to start looking.
21:56.38MonetIn fact you've probably picked one of the best times to consider - you'd have a whole year to find the uni that fits you.
21:57.59XhoWell I know which one I want to go to
21:58.03XhoJust gotta find the right campus
21:58.32XhoI can choose between Brighton, Bristol, London, Manchester, Dublin and Berlin
21:58.50MonetThe best thing you can do is visit on open days.
21:59.13MonetSee the campus, ask about the curriculum and the accommodation.
21:59.48Xhorite
22:01.51XhoGonna be a little weird though
22:02.01XhoI'm gonna be nearly 23 by the time I start
22:02.30XhoA good deal of them are gonna be 18/19
22:02.42XhoIs this where I start feeling old
22:03.34MonetI was 22 when I started.
22:03.46XhoHm
22:04.02MonetHowever I share a class with two mothers and a guy who's in his late 20s and just got married.
22:04.17XhoI don't know how the whole technical side of applying actually works
22:04.23XhoThrough this UCAS system or something
22:05.03MonetUCAS is the conventional way.
22:05.12XhoSurely it would be a bit folly considering I finished education 3 years ago
22:05.34MonetThe alternative is to see if you can send a direct application.
22:05.51XhoProbably where the audition side of it comes in
22:05.59XhoI'd need to pick a good song to audition with
22:06.04dromthinks about spring-powered flechette guns
22:06.18Wormy_drom:  So plenty of time for doing some fiction?
22:06.32Wormy_Regarding your earlier messages
22:06.36Wormy_I was having a nap
22:06.55dromWormy_: Kind of, expect I spend most of the time staring at the same landscape scrolling past me.
22:07.16MonetXho: First you'll need to provide applicant details and a cover letter explaining why you wish to attend that university.
22:07.25Xho"cuz i like guitars n shit lel"
22:07.26Wormy_Is it pretty landscape though?
22:07.38XhoWell personal statements shouldn't be so hard
22:07.45dromYeah. Expect I've seen the same landscape for 19 years now.
22:07.49XhoI managed to get a CV perfectly right first time
22:08.04MonetFortunately for you, a lot of the guidelines for CV personal statements apply to university applications.
22:08.25MonetStuff like the 8-second role.
22:08.28XhoSomehow getting a CV right is hard and I don't see how considering it's just professional layouts and raw detail
22:08.29Wormy_For me, the countryside around never gets old.  But my train journey doesn't really go through nice parts
22:09.00drom1/3 of my travel is the same old landscape
22:09.13dromSo old that I know how it looks like every season
22:09.47Wormy_lol
22:10.13dromAnyway.
22:10.18Wormy_Regarding the NS, perhaps they are a different, distant faction to the original?
22:10.21MonetXho: That's a skill.
22:10.52XhoI guess it's probably from my job
22:11.07XhoI'm a designer by trade so things like that come easily
22:11.11dromWormy_: I kinda urge to make them technologically advanced, but I restrict myself to using pausible and concept technology as we know it.
22:11.26dromI'm lowering the bar, but I'm still crazy.
22:11.32MonetAside from CV writing, schoosl these days generally don't seem to teach skills useful for entrepreneurship unless you're into Young Enterprise.
22:11.38Xhongh
22:11.53XhoI didn't actually write a CV until this year
22:12.08XhoThankfully my job actually teaches me things about professional layouts so it was easy
22:12.59XhoI design things like letterheads and forms for businesses alongside business cards and whatnot so eye for detail is a requirement
22:13.07MonetEz-peezee
22:13.41XhoPatience is also a requirement because sometimes you get multiple iterations of the same thing due to the indecision of the customer
22:13.41dromWormy_: I'm looking at Project Rocket's page about crew sidearms
22:14.14MonetXho: Aside fro ma lack of professional experience I wonder if some might consider me overqualified.
22:14.15dromAfter reading it, I'm dreaming about a bolt-action spring-powered rifle.
22:14.26XhoAnd my manager is a dick, surprisingly he hasn't had a flame extinguisher launched at his head
22:14.31Wormy_cool
22:14.40XhoMonet: I'm massively overqualified for my job
22:14.59XhoI'm there mostly for the money and the fact that staying in a house 24/7 is unhealthy
22:15.05dromWormy_: That shots various types of projectiles
22:15.16dromFlechettes being the primary one.
22:15.25Monet9 GCSEs, two of which are A or above, a distinction-distinction-distinction in applied science, and a distinction-distinction-distinction in art and design.
22:15.47Xhodistinction-distinction-distinction
22:15.48Xhoeh
22:16.04MonetI did a couple of diplomas.
22:16.07Xhorite
22:16.19MonetWas a top-ranked student too :>
22:16.35Wormy_drom:  Sounds like a gun that can be easily modified from one type to another on the go
22:16.49MonetMaybe that's how I ended up in the top 10% of creative arts universities.
22:17.07dromAnyway, regarding the NS reboot. It is still NS, but reworked to fit my tastes.
22:17.11XhoI have 12 GCSEs, 3 were A and 3 A*, an A-Level in Spanish, Classical Civilisations and Sociology and somehow I'm working in a place with the average intellectual capacity of a flip flop
22:17.22XhoNo wonder I hate Southampton
22:17.44MonetTry London.
22:17.48XhoNo music qualification however, which right now is my biggest regret
22:17.49drom"with the average intellectual capacity of a flip flop"
22:17.51dromclassic
22:18.48XhoA* were in English Language, Japanese and something else which I can't remember right now
22:19.13XhoSpanish dur
22:19.16dromTek0516 Charles_Murray: Can I may inquire about your expertize on the idea of spring-powered bolt-action sniper-rifles in sci-fi environment like Sporeverse?
22:19.28XhoA in History, English Literature and Religious Studies
22:19.41XhoAll my average grades were in sciences
22:19.42Xhobecause doi
22:20.04dromguh
22:20.12Tek0516Drom: If anyone is qualified in that field it would be DrodoEmpire
22:20.20dromGrades are one reason I wouldn't talk too much about it.
22:20.21XhoMy A-Levels weren't flaunt-worthy because I winged college
22:20.26DrodoEmpireHm?
22:20.37XhoMainly because I hated college with a passion so I just did the bare minimum
22:20.43Tek0516Drom: Also, Sweden http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1472136214-20160825.png
22:20.45dromDrodoEmpire: Can I may inquire about your expertize on the idea of spring-powered bolt-action sniper-rifles in sci-fi environment like Sporeverse?
22:20.55DrodoEmpireWhat do you mean "spring-powered"?
22:21.09DrodoEmpireAs for bolt-action weapons- they're good I guess
22:21.31XhoMy highest science grade was Biology amazingly enough
22:21.36DrodoEmpireThere's a bit of a back-and-forth argument over whether bolt-actions of semi-automatic rifles make better sniper rifles
22:21.52DrodoEmpireSome say bolt action rifles are more reliable, or they seal better
22:22.02DrodoEmpireAnd the rate of fire advantage is pointless anyway
22:22.27dromAs I know bolt-action rifles are often more lethal due to the possiblity to fit large-calibre bullets compared to semi-automatics.
22:22.44DrodoEmpireI figure its less of a hassle to make a high-calibre (over .50 cal I guess) rifle bolt action or breechloading
22:22.49Monet"lololol MLG 360 noscope" pro marksman laughs his ass off
22:23.00DrodoEmpire"more lethal" rounds is a matter of circumstance
22:23.11DrodoEmpireBut anyway that's all I can say as I'm no expert
22:23.19DrodoEmpireI may know a bit more than the average person I guess
22:23.30dromSpring-powered is when you use a compressed spring to launch a projectile.
22:23.37dromMost used in airsoft guns.
22:23.51XhoBarrett M82 a point blank range because that's how you kill someone
22:23.52DrodoEmpireThere's a reason why only airsoft guns use that system
22:24.25DrodoEmpireBecause its sorta inefficient and will never be any good at propelling a heavy projectile a long distance fast
22:24.28dromBut it is one of the few useable methods of projection for pointing and shooting at someone in vaccum.
22:24.41dromLike, in space.
22:24.48DrodoEmpireUse a chemical propellant (yes, guns work in space), or magnetic rails
22:25.08dromWhich kind of chemical propellant?
22:25.13DrodoEmpireUhh
22:25.16DrodoEmpireAny? :p
22:25.17XhoAlways wondered what kind of damage an M82 would do a point blank range
22:25.21XhoOut of ballistic curiosity
22:25.25Xhoat*
22:25.29DrodoEmpireAll "chemical propellant" means is something like gunpowder or smokeless powder
22:25.30dromYou know, guns don't always work in space.
22:25.31DrodoEmpireCordite
22:25.33DrodoEmpireThose things
22:25.36DrodoEmpireThey'll fire
22:25.58DrodoEmpireConventional earth weapons don't work in space because its cold and it freezes up the mechanism
22:26.03DrodoEmpireNot because they won't fire
22:26.12dromThere is a second issue too
22:26.17dromLack of air,
22:26.20DrodoEmpire...No
22:26.25dromFull-automatics heat up easily.
22:26.25DrodoEmpireI literally said that isn't so
22:26.44DrodoEmpireA cartridge firearm will fire fine in a vacuum
22:27.13DrodoEmpireIf you can adapt a gun so it won't freeze, you got a space-worthy gun
22:27.36dromMake sure it won't overheat either
22:27.45DrodoEmpireThat's a completely separate issue
22:28.12DrodoEmpireAnyway
22:28.25DrodoEmpireBolt actions or breechloading are *probably* better for high calibre weapons
22:28.44DrodoEmpireAnd using conventional propellant/magnetic rails/both will work too
22:28.57DrodoEmpireYou can contract the Drodo to make this rifle for you if you so wish, or buy their sniper rifle
22:29.11*** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@95.140.92.27)
22:29.32dromRight
22:31.14dromNow for the spring-powered projection. I believe it would work the best in environment free of resistance (air resistance, gravity, etc.) like space.
22:31.21dromWhat do you think about it.
22:32.19DrodoEmpireI still think its pointless
22:32.56DrodoEmpireIt wouldn't muster as much initial power as a chemical propellant or magrails
22:33.50MonetI'm not an expert on guns, but a spring does sound less potent a propellant than a chemical explosion or a set of magnetic rails
22:34.27DrodoEmpireStealth isn't an issue, as its space
22:34.41DrodoEmpireAnd if you're *that* worried about a potential muzzle-flash for some reason, then put on a flash suppressor :p
22:35.02MonetEasy.
22:36.16MonetSo (and I'm going to sound stupid here but hey I'm English, guns aren't a thing many people are versed in here) suppressors are mroe designed to conceal the muzzle flash rather than the bang?
22:36.27DrodoEmpireEhh
22:36.32DrodoEmpireWell here's the thing
22:36.42DrodoEmpireThere are sound suppressors, and flash suppressors, and some do both
22:37.01DrodoEmpireWith any sort of 'silencer' the gun is still *extremely* loud
22:37.02MonetAs so there are two kinds (I'm aware that real 'silencers' don't turn a bang into a fwip)
22:37.08DrodoEmpireYeah
22:37.55MonetIt's like confusing the term "buleltproof" and "bullet-resistant"
22:38.09DrodoEmpireAs far as I know anyway
22:38.26DrodoEmpireMost suppressors remove the flash anyway
22:38.54MonetThe confusion is "oh it's bullet-proof, it's designed to stop bullets"
22:39.24MonetWheras the term actually meant the armour was tested and proven resistant against bullet impacts.
22:39.39DrodoEmpireYeah
22:39.59DrodoEmpireReally any sort of armour like that isn't a guarantee- it'll save your life, but its not like you'll be robocop
22:40.13The_Randomnessyeah
22:40.16DrodoEmpireYou're probably gonna still be pretty fucked up by the impact alone
22:40.29DrodoEmpireBroken ribs, etc. depending on the round and the range
22:40.38MonetI loved the image of 13th century armour smiths finishing a piece of work then pulling out an aqueous and firing it at the finished armour.
22:40.48DrodoEmpire16th, you mean?
22:40.55MonetYeah.
22:41.10DrodoEmpireAs yeah that's how early modern period armour was tested, incredibly
22:41.14MonetMust have been a fun moment after finishing every commission.
22:41.18DrodoEmpire^
22:41.26DrodoEmpireThey'd shoot it with a pistol, and if it only dented, its good
22:41.38DrodoEmpireYou'd be an idiot to buy undented armour >.<
22:42.22The_RandomnessThat's really interesting
22:42.24The_RandomnessI never knew that
22:42.37DrodoEmpireYeah, they called the process "proofing" I belive
22:42.39DrodoEmpire*believe
22:44.13Wormy_I suggest that since there isn't any air in space aside from the odd atom here and there, a chemical propellant would need some thought.  Potentially some unstable oxidiser would burn very quickly, like compressed oxygen used in acetylene torches in space.  But it also doesn't want to be too explosive I imagine.
22:45.03DrodoEmpireI mean, I'm pretty certain modern firearms can fire in a vacuum, and its unrelated issues as to why using modern firearms in space is so impractical
22:45.15DrodoEmpireIf you were to "proof" a gun against space, it'd work I think
22:45.25DrodoEmpireBut yeah a specialised propellant may be a good optimisation
22:45.30DrodoEmpireAt the very least
22:46.01MonetIS the freezing analogy accurate?
22:46.19DrodoEmpireI think its exactly that as to why a gun stops working
22:46.22DrodoEmpireThe mechanism freezes
22:46.31MonetSpace, being a vacuum, is very bad act cooling things.
22:46.41Wormy_Guns probably use oxidisers that would burn in space
22:46.54Wormy_And I think they can be in solid form too
22:47.21Wormy_*guns today
22:47.58MonetThere would be an overheating concern, as Drodo said.
22:48.13Monetas Drom said
22:48.35Xhorite sleep
22:49.32MonetBut the chance of freezing not so much as aside form infrared radiation emission, there's nothing to really cool something down in space.
22:49.40dromThat is why you would never use caseless munitions in space.
22:51.18ImpyDroidHachiman Monet: So Christian Stewart is apparently marrying a woman
22:51.27ImpyDroidNot sure if I wrote her name right
22:51.41ImpyDroidThe female lead from Twilight
22:52.57Wormy_The gun might have some radiators and an internal compressed liquid cooling system, though given that it can only radiate heat in infrared form in space they might need to be detachable if the liquid heats too quickly.  Internally I can see it conducting heat away from components though
22:53.17MonetImpyDroid: It's usually the men of Twilight that everyone obsesses about.
22:53.59dromCame to think that Sten Guns use a spring to chamber and fire bullets.
22:54.49DrodoEmpire...Yes
22:54.57DrodoEmpireBut that's not the way the projectile's propelled
22:54.58dromI know it is not directly related. But aren't springs used in full-automatics anyway?
22:55.07DrodoEmpireThat's just a blowback mechanism
22:55.12dromI know
22:55.19dromI read an article
22:57.04Tek0516O.O http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/3-dead-after-crossbow-attack-in-toronto-1.3044118
22:57.30Tek05163 people killed here by a crossbow today.
22:57.44DrodoEmpireJesus....
22:58.01DrodoEmpireA *crossbow*?
22:59.23Tek0516Yes, a crossbow.
22:59.48DrodoEmpireChrist, the attack itself seems quite savage as well
23:00.01dromBows to this modern day aren't a joke
23:00.45DrodoEmpireAs someone who owns a Mongol recurve bow, I know >.<
23:00.54Hachiman>comparing a crossbow to a bow
23:01.00Hachiman>implying crossbows are true bows
23:01.09DrodoEmpireI mean they ae
23:01.11DrodoEmpire*are
23:01.29DrodoEmpireMechanically they aren't very different, just a different, more convenient mount <.<
23:01.43DrodoEmpireWith added features depending on what it is
23:01.50The_Randomness^
23:01.59Wormy_Crossbows are still used in modern armies for certain situations
23:02.02dromHachiman: Crossbows are just bows with a fishing reel to keep them suspended.
23:02.09DrodoEmpireGranted, that's reductionist
23:02.18DrodoEmpireAs even this small change is a big deal
23:02.39DrodoEmpireIt makes the weapon easier to use, often possess a shorter effective range
23:02.46DrodoEmpireMaybe be more powerful or penetrative
23:05.49Wormy_My knowledge of this is probably incorrect but they did have very different outcomes when fielded in battle.
23:06.11DrodoEmpireThey were very different functionally speaking yes
23:06.27Wormy_The English longbow had superior range or something against French armies who relied on it
23:06.42DrodoEmpireThe French lost many battles in the Hundred Years' War thanks to their misuse of their crossbowmen and the superior range of the English Longbow
23:06.56dromThey were more favorable for personal defence iirc.
23:06.57Wormy_Cool, glad I got that right
23:07.15DrodoEmpiredrom: Crossbows were expensive and unwieldy, they weren't personal defense weapons
23:07.36dromWell, still easier than wielding a bow for persona defense.
23:07.42DrodoEmpireThe insane bravery and overconfidence of the French cavalry also helped them to defeat
23:07.52DrodoEmpireIrrelevant
23:08.07dromRight then.
23:08.10DrodoEmpireMost people, especially in the 14th century onward usually kept an old sword
23:08.23DrodoEmpireCrossbows were a bit too expensive to just have around for the house
23:08.51Wormy_I came across some medieval art which depicted giant crossbows positioned on castle walls.  Although it was probably exaggerated in size I am very curious about them.
23:09.16DrodoEmpireI figure they were a form of ballistae, which indeed were used
23:09.38DrodoEmpireDunno how much in medieval sieges
23:09.42DrodoEmpireBut they were used
23:09.52Wormy_*looks them up*, yes they looked like ballistae
23:10.53Wormy_Jebus, "One talent ballista (26 kg weight projectile). The heaviest versions could shoot up to three talents (78 kg), possibly much more." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bal_BBC1.jpg
23:11.51DrodoEmpireHuh, nice
23:14.41dromGotta love slapping this trope http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeButImpractical
23:16.10dromoff to sleep
23:16.16dromTake care!
23:16.30DrodoEmpireBye
23:16.39Wormy_night
23:20.45DrodoEmpiretest
23:51.35Wormy_I fancy getting a giant H bomb mod for Fallout 4
23:51.41DrodoEmpireOh?
23:52.09Wormy_It has mini-nukes which are cool and all but not enough
23:53.08DrodoEmpireAhh
23:53.18*** join/#sporewiki ZF101 (4933de11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.51.222.17)
23:55.15Wormy_This one looks cool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ABGPV2cADw
23:59.42Wormy_Mini nuke minigun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRNRp3JoNls

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