IRC log for #qi-hardware on 20150114

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00:09.07wpwrakwould be a lot more awesome if it could detect the keys you're pressing on the device it is charging :)
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00:10.58nicksydneywpwrak: it's open source so it could be done :)
00:11.05nicksydneyanother cool project http://www.novalia.co.uk/portfolio/dj-qbert-interactive-dj-decks/
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00:55.57qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: update the menu bar (specifically, View > Show ...) after changes with "/" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/e3deb39
00:55.59qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/slice.c (eq): increase epsilon from 1e-6 to 1e-5 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/02d2b28
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03:07.50xiangfuarchang: Hello
03:08.03xiangfuis the package (Y-cables) sent out to werner?
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03:31.19xiangfuarchang: wpwrak I generate the gerber file at here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/anelok/kicad/
03:31.29xiangfuI will send out this file today or tomorrow.
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05:28.08wpwrakxiangfu: how are you sending the cables ? air mail ?
05:40.12xiangfuDHL
05:40.39xiangfuair mail, DHL.
05:43.11wpwrakDHL is courier or regular mail in this case ? regular mail is better if there are problems, because customs clearance is in the city, not a trip out to the airport
05:44.17wpwrakwe now have a restriction on "internet purchases", with a very fuzzy definition of what that is supposed to mean, so please make sure it doesn't look like a "purchase"
05:45.19wpwrak(the good news are that there will be new elections in october, when the idiot government we have to thank for for all this insanity will hopefully receive a kick in the butt ...)
05:47.49wpwrakgerbers look good. there are a few slightly sloppy spots but hopefully the pcb makers won't mind. specifically, issues that may not like:
05:49.16wpwrak1) there's sometimes silk screen on solder mask openings. clearances should still be well sufficient to avoid trouble. if they really hate it, tick "Subtract soldermask from silk screen" in the Gerber dialog.
05:51.17wpwrak2) one positioning mark of the OLED FPC touches a hole (for the switch). this is expected and there's nothing we can do about it. the PCB makers should just try their best there. if the positioning mark doesn't make it or comes out wrong, that's not a problem.
05:54.36wpwrak3) the battery pads exceed the PCB. again, that's intentional. they'll have to trim them in one way or another. the edge outline is right, so the pads should be cut.
05:56.07wpwrak4) similarly, there is silk screen for the switch and for the memory card holder that exceeds the board outline. again, the excessive silk screen should just be ignored.
05:58.26wpwrakmost likely, the only thing they may complain about is 3). you may want to attach a note telling them that we know this and that they should just cut off as much of the pad as they have to.
06:00.45wpwrakand you don't need to send them anelok-Dwgs_User.gbr or any anelok-*_Paste.*, but they probably already know to ignore such things :)
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06:47.19xiangfuwpwrak: DHL is fast. the other option is EMS.
06:58.26xiangfu[doesn't look like a purchase]: Yes.
07:04.35xiangfugerber: thanks for the info. now I know how to answer them when they are asking :)
07:05.08xiangfuwhat is those Dwgs_User/*_Paste* for?
07:05.20xiangfuarchang: I document the steps here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/KiCad_Gerber_and_Drill_Files#Version_2013-Jul-07-stable
07:06.36archangroger
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08:33.45xiangfuwpwrak: I think next step here is find the BOM of anelok.
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08:43.00eintopfwin 2
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12:17.19wpwrakxiangfu in absentia: (DHL) yes, courier is usually much nicer - except that it ends up at a potentially very hostile customs point in argentina. postal services - including EMS - take a different and hopefully more friendly route.
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13:22.40wpwrakxiangfu in absentia: (BOM) it's cleverly hidden in anelok/bom/ ;-) you have to generate it, though. but that's explained in the README. speaking of the BOM ... just found an error (had the wrong USB receptacle). fixed now.
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17:04.47DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20150114_003.jpg  http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20150114_001.jpg  :-D
17:06.26DocScrutinizer05HP err Agilent err KeySight
17:07.20DocScrutinizer05never before seen or heard of such a monster
17:11.10DocScrutinizer05I wonder oif they actually had a test spec that says "device - except fuse - survives 10 times applying 600V AC at ESR 1mOhm to the Ampere range probe jacks"
17:22.56whitequark600kA?
17:23.32whitequarkoh, 30kA fuse
17:27.19DocScrutinizer05yeah, capable of breaking 20kA
17:27.24DocScrutinizer05err 30
17:27.37DocScrutinizer05nominal blow is 11A
17:28.09DocScrutinizer05hihi, lightning thunder the very moment I sent "err 30"
17:28.44DocScrutinizer05more than 600V though ;-P
17:29.08DocScrutinizer0530kA sounds about right for lightning as well
17:29.09wpwrakcurrent may be about right, though: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1997/BrookeHaramija.shtml
17:29.51DocScrutinizer05:-D
17:31.35DocScrutinizer05eventually I'll have to check how much ionizing radiation lightning emits. There are claims lightning even causes fusion reactions (H -> He)
17:32.30DocScrutinizer05X-ray sounds absolutely plausible. gamma claimed to be observed, though sounds not plausible. Alpha, well... dunno
17:33.42whitequarkwell
17:33.50whitequarka fusor is a pretty simple device
17:33.55DocScrutinizer05sure
17:34.30whitequarkyou need 4keV to fuse D-T
17:34.32DocScrutinizer05extremely simple but *huge*
17:35.44DocScrutinizer05I prefer thinking in degrees Kelvin
17:36.18DocScrutinizer05simpler than transforming temperature into "speed"
17:38.29DocScrutinizer05I guess in lightning the problem isn't the temperature but the pressure
17:38.59whitequarktoo high? hmm
17:39.49DocScrutinizer05the H+ won't get accelerated sufficiently to collide, by the electric field
17:40.17DocScrutinizer05only change is to accelerate them by high temperature and high pressure
17:40.37whitequarknot sure about "high pressure", in a fusor you have dilute gas
17:40.46whitequarki mean the issue here is mean free path
17:40.59whitequarkif it's too low, you aren't accelerating the ions fast enough
17:41.04DocScrutinizer05yeah, when you accelerate ions in a filed, it is
17:41.11whitequarkat 1atm it is on the order in 400nm
17:41.22DocScrutinizer05field*
17:43.33DocScrutinizer05laser fusors work by shooting laser beams on a tiny ball of fusion material from all sides, to create a sort of containment, by both light pressure and explosion momentum. While same time heating up the material to extreme temperatures
17:44.07whitequarkyeah, but a lightning is nowhere near that
17:44.25DocScrutinizer05of course you can fusion H+ in even tiny cyclotrons, in vacuum, but that's not how lightning works
17:45.49DocScrutinizer05so much for my uneducated take on "lightning creates fusion reactions"
17:46.03DocScrutinizer05I doubt it
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17:48.01DocScrutinizer05http://www.quora.com/Why-doesnt-lightning-cause-fusion-or-does-it
17:48.42whitequark>quora
17:49.15DocScrutinizer05>> yield of ~1015 neutrons per lightning flash<< LOL
17:49.57whitequark10^15
17:50.25DocScrutinizer05ooh, prolly they mean 10^15
17:50.34DocScrutinizer05meh, you beat me to it ;-)
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18:14.40eintopfhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rek3jjbYRLo
18:14.42eintopf:-)
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18:30.18DocScrutinizer05http://susepaste.org/36864282 :)
18:49.19DocScrutinizer05now if I also would find a doc about the supported commands...
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19:57.47DocScrutinizer05dang, the (not included!!!) 134 pages manual for the U1233A obviously has zilch info about the supported command set, only a vague pointer to that dang windoze app "Agilent GUI Data Logger Software"
20:03.01DocScrutinizer05http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=878442&lc=eng&cc=GB&nid=-11143.0.00&id=878442  suckers!
20:09.09DocScrutinizer05hmm  http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/release-note1.txt  >>4. Removed Scpi command SYST:TENV 1<<  Seems I'm up to my own to test SCPI commands if they work with U1233A or not
20:16.01wpwrakmaybe look for the 34401A command set. should be very similar
20:24.24DocScrutinizer05any pointer for that one?
20:24.35DocScrutinizer05agilent website sucks big time
20:26.45DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/3f42928610
20:29.49wpwrakthe keyword you need is "scpi" :)  http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/34401-90004.pdf
20:31.06wpwrakah, keysight have it, too: http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/servlet/JiveServlet/download/124-35351-107364-5847/34410A_11A_SCPI_Reference.pdf
20:31.43DocScrutinizer05https://www.keysight.com/overlay/asmpostauth?env=https://www.keysight.com/my/faces/pages_home has infinite recursion, idiots!
20:32.25DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: thanks a megaton!
20:34.36DocScrutinizer05216 x 279 mm (portrait letter) page size, average of 10 lines per page, ~1100 pages. Are those guys nuts?
20:35.28DocScrutinizer051900 pages, http://susepaste.org/61396757
20:36.02wpwrakwell, consider the font size ;-))
20:36.21wpwrakand the document structure :)
20:36.22DocScrutinizer05prolly made for cassiopeia
20:36.52DocScrutinizer05640*240 pix screen
20:36.53wpwrakbut i guess you'll get as much information, if not more, from the agilent manual
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20:42.29DocScrutinizer05closes that keysight abomination
20:43.08DocScrutinizer05agilent explanation of SCPI is scary enough ;-)
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20:59.16DocScrutinizer05however
20:59.19DocScrutinizer05sense:voltage:dc:range?
20:59.21DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
20:59.43DocScrutinizer05*E is the standard response to virtually everything
21:02.05DocScrutinizer05actually *IDN? is the only command so far that produces anything other than *E
21:02.44DocScrutinizer05and switching the rotary dial produces *1 *2 *3 aso depending on position
21:02.56whitequarkugggggh scpi
21:03.50wpwraksome devices let you send "button presses" and return a bitmap of which LCD segments are active in response ;-)
21:04.03wpwrakso be thankful for SCPI :)
21:04.49DocScrutinizer05pressing the pressing the "TRIG HOLD / AUTO LOG" blue button produces "unsolicited response code" like "010016512000200" (incl ") for a display reading of 16.5 mV AC
21:05.42DocScrutinizer05only one though, for each keypress
21:06.57larscif only devices would follow the standard
21:07.30wpwraknow where would be the fun if they did ?
21:07.40DocScrutinizer05yeah :-/
21:07.52larscwhat I've heard is tha often devices speak a dialect that is only compatible to the vendors control software
21:09.22wpwrak... and whatever you have to write to talk to the critter regardless :)
21:09.33wpwrakbut yes, there are ugly variations
21:12.05DocScrutinizer05YEEHAAA *RST works too
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21:22.19DocScrutinizer05WOOOOOWooowWOOOOWWW!
21:22.32DocScrutinizer05SYST:ERR?
21:22.34DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
21:23.17DocScrutinizer05so it at least DOES speak SYS:SUBSYS:CMD syntax
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21:28.12wpwrakenjoy the three ways to do measurements :)
21:34.31larscok... I'm getting ads on youtube that urge me to sign up for the 2013 new year's eve party. Did my timemachine finally work?
21:35.31DocScrutinizer05for now I don't see a single way to record measurements
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21:40.05wpwraklarsc: why ? it's about the right time to plan the parties. less than a week to go. oh, and merry x-mess !
21:41.38larscexcelent!
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22:03.08DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/0e0710775e
22:07.27wpwraki'd try MEAS:... worry about errors only when they happen ;-)
22:10.02DocScrutinizer05SYST:HELP:HEAD?;*E
22:10.03*** join/#qi-hardware viric (~viric@unaffiliated/viric)
22:12.24DocScrutinizer05MEAS:VOLT:AC?;*E :-S
22:13.32DocScrutinizer05MEAS?;*E
22:23.26DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/cb048a625a several AC voltage readings (getting them by pushbutton method) in the range 8.x..9.x mV; one DC voltage iirc +0.1mV; three resistance readings infinite, "short" (0.2 Ohm?) and 8.15M
22:26.14DocScrutinizer05I guess it's time to give up on that one for now
22:36.58DocScrutinizer05keysight/GUI_DataLogger_v1.7.1.zip/GUI_DataLogger_v1.7.1 http://wstaw.org/m/2015/01/14/plasma-desktopzo2003.png
22:38.52DocScrutinizer05I wonder if HP/Agilent/KeySight doesn't feel like publishing a decent "SCPI Conformity Spec" for their stuff
22:39.15DocScrutinizer05unbearable!
22:56.10wpwraktry  MEAS:VOLT:DC?  or such
22:56.49wpwrakthe  ;*E   you tried seems weird. i never used that.
22:57.30wpwrak(conformity spec) to help the cloners ? hah ! :)
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23:01.01DocScrutinizer05; == ^J
23:01.25DocScrutinizer05*E == Agilent_says_'SUCKER'
23:02.25DocScrutinizer05((try  MEAS:VOLT:DC?  or such)) MEAS:VOLT:AC?  ==  "or such"?
23:02.56DocScrutinizer05(particularly since the device been set to AC by turndial)
23:04.13DocScrutinizer05http://wstaw.org/m/2015/01/15/plasma-desktopIt2003.png caused somebody hogging my network with 1.6Mbit  >:-(
23:04.17wpwrakthe MEAS command should override the manual setting
23:04.47DocScrutinizer05how would it do that on a turndial button?
23:05.48DocScrutinizer05even when it does - I doubt MEAS for the mode currently manually selected is invalid
23:05.55wpwrakthat turndial is typically just an encoder
23:06.12DocScrutinizer05hmm, hardly
23:06.31DocScrutinizer05particularly since uA and Volt are same prope jacks
23:06.40DocScrutinizer05probe*
23:06.44wpwrakah, that's unusual
23:07.48DocScrutinizer05this critter is battery powered, it doesn't have energy for fancy relays
23:09.06wpwrakokay, my bench meters do the occasional clicking ;-)
23:09.11whitequarki've seen relays with coil current in milliamp range
23:09.16whitequark5ma for sure
23:09.18whitequarkoh
23:09.22whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: bistable relay.
23:09.54DocScrutinizer05((;*E)) http://privatepaste.com/63ff203728  ^J vs ;
23:10.31wpwrakphew. http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-case-20150114.png
23:10.38DocScrutinizer05whitequark: it's simply not built like this
23:10.51DocScrutinizer05I mean the critter costs <200 bucks
23:11.18DocScrutinizer05incl "Calibration Certificate"
23:11.21wpwraki don't think you need that *E. just MEAS:...? should do the trick
23:11.27wpwrakmaybe you need CRLF or such
23:11.43DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I start to headdesk!! *E is DMM's answer!
23:11.57whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Volt-Latching-Relay-2-Form-C-DPDT-EB2-5SN-/110463457196
23:12.00whitequark$0.99
23:12.14wpwrakoh :)
23:13.04DocScrutinizer05whitequark: don't tell me, tell KeySight!
23:13.12wpwrakbut wait ... you're beginning the command with a * ? that doesn't look right
23:13.56DocScrutinizer05I tried _all_ possible permutations
23:14.12whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I mean, it fits into both power and economic budget
23:14.16DocScrutinizer05with and without *, with sub and subsub-cmd
23:14.28wpwrakwell, try to
23:14.37DocScrutinizer05whitequark: but not into design budget
23:15.01wpwrak- set it to VDC and connect something with a non-random value (battery or such)
23:15.04wpwrak- power-cycle
23:15.34wpwrak- then send  MEAS:VOLT:DC?<CR>
23:15.46DocScrutinizer05<CR> doesn't work
23:15.53DocScrutinizer05needs ^J or ;
23:16.23DocScrutinizer05funny enough it accepts ; just like ^J
23:17.24DocScrutinizer05I think 0.000V is good enough of a stable voltage
23:17.56wpwrakah yes, there's something wrong with the command. checking ...
23:19.13DocScrutinizer05*1
23:19.15DocScrutinizer05*2
23:19.16DocScrutinizer05MEAS:VOLT:DC?
23:19.18DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
23:19.34DocScrutinizer05*1 == Volt~ pos of turn knob
23:19.52DocScrutinizer05*2 = VolT= pos of turn knob
23:20.09DocScrutinizer05entered ^j after cmd
23:20.18DocScrutinizer05device aswers *E
23:20.41wpwrakwhat does  CONF?  say ?
23:21.13DocScrutinizer05\o/ third command that works
23:21.17DocScrutinizer05CONF?
23:21.20DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
23:21.32wpwrakah, found it :)
23:21.43wpwrak:SYST:REM
23:21.43wpwrakthen
23:21.45wpwrakMEAS:VOLT:DC?
23:22.02DocScrutinizer05:SYST:REM
23:22.03DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
23:22.40wpwrakSYST:REM   without leading : ?
23:23.02DocScrutinizer05*E
23:23.23wpwrakat least it's consistent :)
23:24.07DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/7e8edda84a ;-D
23:24.48DocScrutinizer05*1 == Unsolicited Response Code when switching back to pos1=AC
23:25.18wpwraknice :)
23:25.35wpwrakmaybe try  :MEAS?
23:26.23DocScrutinizer05changed from auto range to 0.00:
23:26.25DocScrutinizer05CONF?
23:26.26DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
23:26.38wpwrakMEAS?
23:26.41wpwrakREAD?
23:27.17DocScrutinizer05you're the genius!!!
23:27.22DocScrutinizer05READ works
23:27.28wpwrakphew. finally :)
23:27.35DocScrutinizer05READ?
23:27.36DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
23:27.52wpwrakas if it had that precision ;-)
23:28.04DocScrutinizer05LOL
23:29.29DocScrutinizer05and the SUCKER the BASTARD doesn't accept ; instead of ^J for READ?
23:29.47DocScrutinizer05"READ?"
23:30.29DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/90e2748395
23:31.10DocScrutinizer05rhat's prolly why I missed it so far
23:31.19DocScrutinizer05I actually tried READ before
23:32.10wpwraknot sure if ; is even valid after READ?
23:32.16wpwrakat least mine doesn't like it
23:33.46DocScrutinizer05it takes ; as termination for almost everything, even READ?, since it instantly answers with *E
23:35.09DocScrutinizer05according to SCPI specs ; is for multiple commands per line. So I thought "duh, lazy sucker simple did ';==^J' to simplify stuff"
23:35.47DocScrutinizer05and since ^J is a PITA to type, I used ; instead from then on
23:39.24DocScrutinizer05READ?
23:39.26DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
23:39.33DocScrutinizer05one digit more than in display
23:39.45DocScrutinizer05FWIW
23:41.35DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/ed48000cdb
23:42.05DocScrutinizer05no notification about "Esc" button getting pressed to V~ -> Freq
23:42.07wpwrakhehe :)
23:42.49DocScrutinizer05those unsolicited *2 *3 etc only appear for trun knob
23:43.14DocScrutinizer05anyway thanks for smashing the critter
23:46.23DocScrutinizer05anybody an idea how much jitter and which frequency of jitter supposed to be seen in German/European power grid?
23:47.22DocScrutinizer05seems to jitter ~0.01Hz up and down, in a few seconds, according to this DMM. I think I know whom to blame
23:50.42DocScrutinizer05DUH! +5.00320000E+01
23:52.21DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/585e7fdbc7 interval ~1s
23:53.29DocScrutinizer05sounds non-plausible for power grid, very plausible though for some systematic error inside DMM
23:56.48DocScrutinizer05though who knows, might as well be regulation overshots as seen with any PID regulator ;-D
23:57.26DocScrutinizer05particularly since the wole thing needs to stay in phase
23:57.30DocScrutinizer05long term

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