IRC log for #qi-hardware on 20141208

01:36.30sb0whitequark, where did you get your vacuum gear from?
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05:57.58whitequarklvtcshop on ebay
05:58.07whitequark$110 for gear and $85 for delivery approx
05:58.14whitequarksb0: ^
06:02.50sb0the pump?!
06:03.15sb0just the clamps and pipes, right?
06:14.17whitequarkyeah
06:14.23whitequarkthe pump was about $250 in RU
06:14.29whitequarkand almost free delivery
06:14.44whitequarkturbo pump that is. rough is another $100
06:15.16sb0where did you find those?
06:15.36whitequarkchipmaker.ru, avito.ru. local craigslist-like things
06:16.26sb0which one exactly?
06:16.39whitequarkturbo pump from chipmaker, rough from avito
06:16.57whitequarkrough you can find on ebay just as well, there are plenty of these noname pumps there
06:17.08whitequarkit's an air conditioning pump basically
06:17.25sb0yeah but all I find on ebay for roughing pumps is $400 min.
06:17.28whitequarkoh
06:17.31whitequarklemme show you
06:17.34sb0or it's bids, which I never win and piss me off
06:18.00whitequarkhaha, I won another bid for a turbo pump (from working equipment) for $250 too
06:18.09whitequarkwould have never thought that I do. also ext250hi
06:18.11whitequarkso now I have two
06:18.50sb0and then shipping is another $600 ...
06:19.12whitequarknot really, ground was $12 and I used a remailer with a freight kinda option
06:19.16whitequarkso it offset me about $80
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06:19.40sb0so it was a russian vendor?
06:19.48whitequarkno, continental US
06:20.15whitequarkthe remailer airmails it to germany and then to russia, which takes about a month and somehow inexplicably much cheaper
06:20.29sb0http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pfeiffer-Balzers-TPH330-Turbo-Molecular-Vacuum-Pump-/281395178055 is the typical offer I find
06:20.46sb0$1,850 + $305 shipping to HK
06:20.47sb0fuckit
06:21.02whitequarkyeah, you need to look harder. set an alert and let it sit there for a few months
06:21.14sb0well, the typical "good" one. most are like $6000
06:21.20whitequarkso http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOC-Edwards-EXT-250-Turbomolecular-Pump-/161507454254?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item259a982d2e
06:21.23whitequarkused, for $500
06:21.51sb0no controller?
06:22.02whitequarkcontroller you can get for $75 or so, if you're lucky
06:22.12whitequark(mine from chipmaker was with controller as well)
06:22.26sb0I'm *never* lucky on goddamed ebay, and I fucking hate it
06:22.27whitequarkhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Edwards-EXDC160-D39641000-/161504708334?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item259a6e46ee
06:22.32whitequarkget it while it's hot
06:22.51whitequarkexdc160, even. more powerful than mine
06:22.57whitequarkalthough you don't really need those 160 watts
06:23.12sb0"Ships to: United States". so I need to ship it to a friend, who forwards it, etc.
06:23.14whitequarkyes
06:23.24whitequarkor remailer
06:23.32whitequarkif you want to win cheap auctions, that's the only way
06:24.02whitequarkmy other wins include: active pirani gauge for $75, active inverted magnetron for $48
06:24.04sb0also, "untested". isn't that synonymous for "broken" on ebay?
06:24.21whitequarkhave you seen what's inside that controller? I have, I disassembled it
06:24.37whitequarkit's dumb as hell. it has six FETs and a bog-standard TI BLDC controller
06:24.56whitequarkthere's no way you're going to kill it, unless you're completely incompetent
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06:25.19sb0still a pain to fix, especially if those FETs are obsolete or unsourceable for some other reason
06:25.31whitequarktypical IR FETs
06:25.44whitequarkand it's not really going to be broken, it's just, you see
06:25.56whitequarkif they say "working", they have to process warranty and/or returns
06:26.13whitequarkadditionally not many people have the ability to test the gear
06:26.38whitequarkso maybe for other stuff, yes, but for vacuum untested usually means "I don't have the ability to test this and/or not want to bother"
06:26.53whitequarksince it lowers price 3-4x, I'm totally fine with it, because you can just buy another if it's broken :p
06:27.13whitequark"tested" inverted magnetron gauges for $400
06:27.32whitequarkI could buy almost eight "untested" ones for that, obviously it makes economic sense
06:28.35sb0what remailer did you use?
06:29.31whitequarkshopfans.ru
06:29.58whitequarkI think they would even send to non-RU, altough their process is tailored to RU. express delivery to the door, customs handling, etc
06:30.04whitequarkfairly cheap too
06:34.38sb0I also wonder if those second-hand turbopumps could be contaminated with oil from the previous roughing pump
06:35.55whitequarkwell, significant contamination will probably be visible
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06:36.14whitequarkworst case, you'll have to reassemble and clean it, which, contrary to what the pump vendor wants you to think, is completely doable
06:36.58whitequarkafaik people usually boil the internals in ether to remove oil
06:37.57whitequarksb0: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Stage-5CFM-Rotary-Vane-Vacuum-Pump-For-R410-R134-Refrigerant-Air-Condition-HVAC-/201236473761?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item2edaa0e7a1
06:38.04whitequarkthis is the rough pump I was referring to
06:38.21whitequarkalthough if your turbo pump has a drag stage, like edwards usually does, you don't need 2stage rotary vane
06:38.31whitequarkmine is 1-stage and that totally suffices. in fact anything under 500 Pa will do
06:39.20whitequarksb0: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3CFM-Rotary-Vane-Deep-Vacuum-Pump-1-4HP-HVAC-AC-Air-Tool-Freon-R410a-R134-etc-/400818965677?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d52ac0cad
06:39.21sb0ah, I see, you got one for refrigeration stuff
06:39.28whitequark$21 :p
06:39.40whitequarkyes
06:39.53sb0you probably get a lot of oil backstreaming with that, though
06:40.38whitequarkdo you mean like oil vapor?
06:40.39sb0do you use the original oil, or did you replace it with something better?
06:40.44sb0yeah
06:41.04whitequarkpossibly. I will see it better when I get my gauges
06:41.07sb0and I read that this oil vapor tends to stick to surfaces and create a mess in UHV
06:41.27whitequarkyou generally have to bake the UHV equipment to remove water, this also helps with oil
06:41.44whitequarknot to mention turbo pumps can actually pump oil vapor quite efficiently
06:42.01whitequarkI used original oil, however before putting it in, I disassembled the pump and cleaned it
06:42.04sb0yeah...  but I heard other opinions (from physicists) about what happens to oil when baking
06:42.31whitequarkthere were some oil-like residues inside which was green, smelly and muddy
06:42.59whitequarkas a bonus point I now know how a rotary vane pump looks inside :p
06:43.42sb0so much of this stuff is in the US...
06:44.04whitequarkI'm sure you can find a rotary vane pump locally
06:45.06sb0hmm, I'd rather try to find a scroll pump
06:45.18whitequarkthey're bloody expensive
06:45.21whitequarkdo you really need one?
06:45.22sb0oil is messy
06:45.33whitequarkmoney is scarce
06:45.33sb0especially in UHV
06:46.51sb0http://www.ebay.com/itm/Busch-Fossa-18-F018-Scroll-Vacuum-Pump-/281395168490 not worse than the typical turbomolecular pump offer
06:47.11whitequarktry meeting your local scientists, sometimes the lab has an upgrade and they throw out old equipment en masse
06:47.25sb0yeah, that's how I got my previous stuff already :)
06:47.26whitequarkI wouldn't pay $2k for a turbo pump :p
06:49.35whitequarkooooo, my pirani gauge just arrived at the post office.
06:49.45whitequarkor maybe that was something else
06:49.57whitequarkcrap, it was.
06:50.09sb0http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scroll-Meister-anest-iwata-Oil-free-scroll-vacume-pump-ISP-500B-/151503915943
06:50.31whitequarkHe said the repair on this unit cost $500-700. But he said its simple for someone who knows about these. Selling as-is thanks!
06:50.35whitequarkGOD BLESS!
06:50.39whitequarknot very inspiring
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08:06.54DocScrutinizer05whitequark: what the heck are you doing? Vacuum, iverted magnetrons (whatever that is) :-o    .oO(???)
08:07.31whitequarkinverted magnetron gauge, it's a vacuum gauge for under 10^-1 torr of pressure
08:07.56whitequarkit's not the same magnetron as in a microwave oven in that it's not self-oscillating (afaik)
08:08.13whitequarkthe "magnetron" part comes from two strong magnets which confine any plasma that exists near them to a small ring region
08:08.36whitequarkthe gauge works by lighting up the plasma and measuring the current that flows through it. the less current, the less pressure
08:09.11whitequarkbetween 10^1 and 10^-1 it's a pirani gauge. that one's simpler. you have a resistor bridge, one of which is inside the chamber
08:09.22whitequarkthe less pressure there is, the less heat is convected/conducted by the gas
08:09.55whitequark(tip: if you want to convert torr into something more manageable, apt-get install units)
08:10.13sb0is that better than Bayard Alpert gauges?
08:10.25DocScrutinizer05fine fine, but WHAT for do you need that stuff?
08:10.26whitequarkhot filament ionization? yes, definitely
08:10.59whitequarkionization gauges tend to be fragile as heck with the glass enclosure, and generally you can get shit deposited on the filament
08:10.59DocScrutinizer05related to your 5 bazillion Volt shortwave function generator?
08:11.02whitequarkby your process
08:11.21whitequarkwith inverse magnetron, you can disassemble it and clean the anode with rubbing alcohol
08:11.37whitequark(and it's generally less susceptible to drift from deposited crap)
08:11.59whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: yes, the function generator would be for a quadrupole mass spectrometer
08:12.12DocScrutinizer05ahaaaaa mass spectro
08:12.29whitequarkbut I want other things too, like plasma etching and thin film deposition
08:12.41DocScrutinizer05now we're talking :-)
08:12.50whitequarkmass spectro is very useful for that!
08:12.55whitequarkhow'd you control the process otherwise?
08:13.18DocScrutinizer05nfc, never thought about it
08:13.30whitequarkwell, that's how it's done in the industry :p
08:13.50DocScrutinizer05except for "make a copper wire explode and enjoy the funny color deposits on all the stuff in vicinity"
08:14.03whitequarkthin film deposition I actually don't even need turbo pump for
08:14.06whitequarklet me show you this video
08:14.44DocScrutinizer05funny that you mention gas flow cooling a resistor
08:15.08DocScrutinizer05I just said about the same, in a completely different context, for determining wind speed
08:15.24whitequarkyep, it's also used in anemometers
08:15.43whitequarkvery cheap, fairly reliable, somewhat precise
08:15.48whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Sic1DRXJI
08:15.57DocScrutinizer05hehe, and included in Neo900
08:16.27DocScrutinizer05since we got a hygrometer that has a 10,W internal heater and a 14bit thermometer built in
08:16.35DocScrutinizer0510mW
08:17.06whitequarkthere's that eink tablet for outdoor enthusiasts
08:17.09whitequarkpacked to the brim with sensors
08:17.16DocScrutinizer05DUH!
08:17.22whitequarkearl
08:17.22DocScrutinizer05link!!!
08:17.25whitequarkhttp://www.meetearl.com/
08:17.39DocScrutinizer05ooh that one, think I heard about it already
08:17.48whitequarkI actually think I heard of it from you
08:17.56DocScrutinizer05isn't earl a dog?
08:18.11whitequarkno clue
08:18.59whitequarkso for thin film, I don't even need turbo pump, just a pair of strong magnets, some DC source and argon
08:19.20whitequarkno one sells broken microwaves anymore, they're not valuable enough D:
08:20.22DocScrutinizer05umm except for the VHF/UHF transceiver (GMRS, PMR446, UHFCB) and AM/FM/SW/LW/WB  I think Neo900 is on par :-D
08:20.42DocScrutinizer05but then we got a real modem
08:20.44DocScrutinizer05;-D
08:20.52DocScrutinizer05cellular modem
08:22.01DocScrutinizer05wtf is a "glove friendly capacitive touchscreen"?
08:23.13DocScrutinizer05whitequark: thought you were suggesting the earl had anemometer
08:23.41whitequarkI think it had
08:23.56whitequarkglove friendly touchscreen, I think some old touchscreens did not work with gloves
08:23.59whitequarkmost modern ones do anyway
08:25.03whitequarkhm, doesn't seem to have an anemometer
08:25.06DocScrutinizer05I wonder how they do that
08:25.12whitequarkmaybe it was an earlier "stretch goal" or something?
08:25.15whitequarkI remember it quite well
08:25.19DocScrutinizer05or *if*
08:26.36DocScrutinizer05now that you mention it, yes, I think I seen sth like that and thought "duh, you need to hold that board directly in wind direction or you will not meter the real windspeed through that hole"
08:26.57whitequarkI think it was expandable or something
08:26.59whitequarkpull-out
08:27.31DocScrutinizer05still the sensor would be pretty directional
08:28.22DocScrutinizer05iow there's one postition 90° off the right one, where the anemometer will read zarro even when hurricane hits you
08:29.03whitequarksure
08:29.09whitequarkit helps to not be dumb
08:29.30DocScrutinizer05but well, wind speed is in 12 steps or sth, and not very steady either, and user has a certain idea where from it blows ;-)
08:30.12DocScrutinizer05iow you wouldn't need highly exact readouts anyway
08:31.02DocScrutinizer05"rotate 180° slowly, device will calculate correct maximum and wind direction"
08:31.23DocScrutinizer05:-)
08:32.16DocScrutinizer05Neo900 will not be able to do that, data acquisition rate is way too low for that
08:32.38DocScrutinizer05thanks to thermal "inertia" of the sensor
08:48.12DocScrutinizer05I think new ones son't either
08:48.24DocScrutinizer05oops
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08:48.59DocScrutinizer05that YT video has the best subtitle at the very end :-D
08:49.31DocScrutinizer05alas for really decent laser you need convex mirrors
08:49.55whitequarkohhh
08:50.10whitequarkwell, this guy considers a MOT an acceptable power source
08:50.19whitequarki bet he'll make do with this mirror
08:50.32DocScrutinizer05it kinda will work, sure
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08:50.51DocScrutinizer05but convergence and beam diameter will be *eeeew*
08:51.51DocScrutinizer05well, I'm looking forward to the next part of this enterprise
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