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| 01:08.50 | pabs3 | http://www.fsf.org/news/hardware-certification-aleph-objects-lulzbot-3d-printer |
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| 01:39.27 | kristianpaul | hmm i tought they had give up with that *certification thing.. |
| 01:41.03 | kristianpaul | and now a hardware first ! |
| 01:41.25 | kristianpaul | did they certify software before? well i guess all gnu but not in that way.. :-/ |
| 01:41.29 | kristianpaul | well :-) |
| 01:41.30 | kristianpaul | gn8 ;) |
| 01:45.18 | kristianpaul | ha |
| 01:45.19 | kristianpaul | cat Arduino_MEGA_2560-Rev3.sch | grep eagle |
| 01:45.19 | kristianpaul | <!DOCTYPE eagle SYSTEM "eagle.dtd"> |
| 01:45.19 | kristianpaul | <eagle version="6.0"> |
| 01:45.19 | kristianpaul | </eagle> |
| 01:45.47 | kristianpaul | this sure respect my freedom of running gratis software :-) |
| 01:50.47 | pabs3 | is that related to the LulzBot or an Arduino related comment? |
| 01:51.33 | kristianpaul | http://download.lulzbot.com/AO-100/hardware/electronics/ArduinoMEGA_2560/ |
| 01:59.51 | pabs3 | thanks |
| 02:00.53 | wolfspraul | pabs3: unfortunately the fsf advocates the inclusion of proprietary software embedded in hardware (seriously), so if you care about freedom, you have to be careful about where they guide you |
| 02:01.24 | pabs3 | well aware of that |
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| 02:02.31 | wolfspraul | there have been enough bizarre cases where between 2 solutions, one with some proprietary software open (so one could write a replacement), and a second one with the same proprietary software hidden (and unreplacable), the fsf advocates use of the latter |
| 02:03.20 | wolfspraul | although somehow those discussions feel like a thing of the past to me, I'm not sure who still cares about the fsf nowadays? |
| 02:03.53 | pabs3 | I half-understand their reasons for that, but they seem to forget the existence of reverse engineering |
| 02:04.04 | wolfspraul | definitely in the past for me now, and I do find more and more people tell me "oh, I already stopped caring about that x years ago" :-) |
| 02:04.39 | wolfspraul | if apple would make the ios un-updatable, maybe the fsf could recommend/endorse the whole thing then :-) |
| 02:04.46 | wolfspraul | it's just good for a laugh nowadays... |
| 02:05.31 | pabs3 | so are there no free tools to view/edit eagle files? |
| 02:05.45 | wolfspraul | there was a chance for their leadership, but I think it passed many years ago |
| 02:06.44 | wolfspraul | do you care about what hw they 'endorse' or 'certify'? |
| 02:07.07 | wolfspraul | I think there are maybe a few hundred people in the world that care |
| 02:07.11 | wolfspraul | max 1000 |
| 02:08.04 | pabs3 | me? no. |
| 02:08.08 | wolfspraul | maybe a few of those rare species are on this channel though :-) quite possible... |
| 02:08.27 | wolfspraul | oh, not even you |
| 02:08.29 | wolfspraul | alright then |
| 02:19.10 | wpwrak | pabs3: haven't heard of any. there should be tools to convert footprint libraries, though. not sure about schematics symbols. |
| 02:20.18 | pabs3 | oh, they have AutoCAD files too :/ |
| 02:22.28 | wpwrak | it gets better and better ;-) |
| 02:24.29 | wpwrak | perhaps it's best to think of this as publicity. some people see "FSF" and that makes them feel good. few will dislike it because of the FSF. so it's a win for the project. |
| 02:25.10 | wolfspraul | well I see it a little different. the fsf continues to harm itself with this. |
| 02:25.21 | xiangfu | mth, just test your jz-3.6 branch. works fine on nanonote. (for work fine with OpenWrt rootfs. we still needs some patches from openwrt) |
| 02:25.28 | wolfspraul | the positive impact for the project is minuscule, as I have seen on several occasions |
| 02:25.46 | wpwrak | maybe it just makes the project members feel better ;-) |
| 02:26.12 | wpwrak | "the great gnu smiles upon us. now we're blessed." |
| 02:26.53 | wolfspraul | fsf is a software-only project and philosophy... |
| 02:27.02 | wpwrak | that was good enough for many a warrior to travel to strange lands and get himself killed in a holy war, so it can't be all bad :) |
| 02:27.21 | wolfspraul | their place in the software philosophy history books is secure, the rest is about securing a few lobbyist jobs some more years :-) |
| 02:27.45 | wolfspraul | autocad and eagle shouldn't surprise anybody |
| 02:28.13 | wolfspraul | anyway this is my perspective, funny to see that this hw endorsement stuff is still limping along :-) |
| 02:28.44 | wpwrak | well, autocad surprises a bit. it's not a very common choice for such things. eagle is much less surprising. |
| 02:29.37 | wpwrak | what has never lived cannot die ;-) |
| 02:30.24 | wolfspraul | that's a nice play on 'free software never dies' |
| 02:30.27 | wolfspraul | :-) |
| 02:33.12 | wpwrak | naw, free sw resists death in other ways. i'd call that particular plan B "homeopathic survival" |
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| 04:51.39 | kyak | mth: jz-3.6 and RNDIS still errors out with code 10 on Windows 7 -\ |
| 04:52.31 | kyak | but at least we know now that problem is not in RNDIS, but in USB stack or JZ4740 hardware, right? |
| 04:56.15 | kyak | damnit, i really hoped it would work. |
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| 07:23.26 | larsc | The FSF has become a institution and often institution care more about keeping themselfs running rather than their original purpose. |
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| 07:39.42 | kyak | i think every non-commercial organization is more or less fighting to survive.. doesn't matter how it's called |
| 07:44.59 | larsc | in this case it's not the struggle to survive but rather the inability to react to change |
| 07:47.12 | larsc | e.g. one way a society can react to such a situation is to allow the organization to keep all its precious banners but any real power or saying is diverted from it |
| 07:47.30 | larsc | and I think that fits quite nicely what's going on here |
| 07:52.39 | larsc | one famous example is e.g. the british monarchy. The Queen is still allowed to call herself the Queen, but she has no other purpose but being the Queen. |
| 07:54.53 | xiangfu | larsc, good point. |
| 07:57.02 | larsc | xiangfu: all stolen from "The evolution of Civilizations". Just saw that the book is on archive.org. The PDF starting from page 89 covers that topic. |
| 07:57.05 | larsc | http://archive.org/download/CarrollQuigley-TheEvolutionOfCivilizations-AnIntroductionTo/CarrollQuigley-TheEvolutionOfCivilizations-AnIntroductionToHistoricalAnalysis1979.pdf |
| 08:24.27 | wpwrak | larsc: hmm, i think the queen actually does have significant power. it's just that she's not obliged to exercise it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_powers#United_Kingdom |
| 08:25.06 | wpwrak | i like the bit "The full extent of the Sovereign's prerogatives has never been fully disclosed," |
| 08:25.45 | wpwrak | i'll remember that when i establish my evil empire of world domination |
| 08:28.44 | mth | kyak: yes, the only relevant difference between the JZ4740 and JZ4770 situation is the hardware and USB driver |
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| 08:29.16 | mth | larsc said it might be possible to use the musb driver on 4740 as well, but I don't know how that would work exactly |
| 08:29.46 | larsc | hopefully it would work good ;) |
| 08:29.58 | mth | :) |
| 08:30.07 | larsc | wpwrak: notice the "In practive however..." |
| 08:30.11 | larsc | practice |
| 08:31.53 | wpwrak | yeah, she has to wait until there's a crisis in the government. e.g., in this case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis |
| 08:32.39 | larsc | maybe the FSF has to wait unitl there is a crisis in the opensource movement ;) |
| 08:33.22 | wpwrak | oh dear :) |
| 08:37.13 | xiangfu | "The power to declare War and Peace" how to declare a Peace? |
| 08:38.54 | xiangfu | wpwrak, there is no China in that wiki page [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_powers] |
| 08:44.10 | kyak | larsc, mth - how can use musb driver with JZ4740? |
| 08:45.07 | kyak | xiangfu: first you have to declare War :) |
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| 08:46.36 | larsc | kyak: it appears that the jz4740 uses the musb core. |
| 08:46.45 | larsc | And there is a driver for the musb core |
| 08:47.23 | larsc | what is missing is the glue code which hooks up some jz4740 specfic things to the musb driver. like clocks, interrupts, memory regions |
| 08:50.20 | kyak | oh, ok.. i thought it's a matter of configuration, but we need to code |
| 08:53.21 | kyak | do you think using musb driver would help with RNDIS issue, or it is a hardware issue (like for other USB gadgets)? |
| 08:55.11 | larsc | no idea |
| 08:55.43 | kyak | ok, thanks anyway |
| 08:57.11 | xiangfu | kyak, btw: I start to use tp-link + nanonote. that will fix most of the nanonote weakness.: http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=1808 |
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| 10:04.19 | kyak | xiangfu: looking good, kind of external WiFi/Ethernet card :) |
| 10:05.34 | kyak | just wondering if tp-link is more powerfull than Nanonote? |
| 10:05.49 | kyak | then it's a question where is a head and where is tail :) |
| 10:06.26 | kyak | i mean, if it's an external LCD for tp-link or external connectivity for Nanonote |
| 10:09.05 | viric | how do you power the tplink? |
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| 10:10.01 | qwebirc22866 | hello? |
| 10:31.47 | kyak | guess it's powered via USB |
| 10:32.36 | kyak | though it's kinda strange.. can USB host be powered from USB clients? :) |
| 10:42.15 | xiangfu | viric, there is battery in that device. |
| 10:45.40 | xiangfu | kyak, there are some kind of usb-screen. btw. |
| 10:47.29 | viric | ah ok |
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| 13:05.17 | whitequark | kyak: usb host can, if it's an OTG host |
| 13:05.23 | whitequark | check the OTG ACA specification |
| 13:05.28 | whitequark | it's pretty simple, just a bunch of resistors |
| 13:35.12 | Fallenou | win 31 |
| 13:37.51 | viric | 31, not bad |
| 13:37.52 | viric | :) |
| 13:52.42 | kyak | whitequark: ah, ok |
| 13:53.23 | whitequark | kyak: technically nothing prevents you from routing VBUS to +5V on the host and doing the reverse on the device |
| 13:53.31 | whitequark | through USB spec requires you to do negotiation |
| 13:53.36 | whitequark | via ID pin |
| 13:54.23 | kyak | i guess i won't be able to charge Ben anymore after that, right? :) |
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| 14:19.40 | whitequark | kyak: yes |
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| 14:58.46 | kyak | and then it will probably blow up another computer, which doesn't have that pin reversed :) |
| 15:01.04 | kyak | somehow it reminds me about "cable of death" i received with milkymist :) |
| 15:01.42 | kyak | http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2012-02-08.log.html#t15:40 |
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| 15:44.51 | kristianpaul | xiangfu: usb-screen? |
| 15:45.36 | xiangfu | kristianpaul, yes. I know there is such device. and someone have connect that to a OpenWrt router. he also connected usb-keyboard and usb-mouse |
| 15:47.03 | xiangfu | kristianpaul, http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/18/displaylink-for-linux-turns-a-humble-wireless-router-into-a-beau/ |
| 15:48.48 | kristianpaul | oh |
| 15:49.39 | kristianpaul | ah yes now i remenber |
| 15:52.48 | kristianpaul | i had seen that screen in some multi seat computers |
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| 16:12.55 | viric | that router is bigger than many computers :) |
| 16:14.24 | kristianpaul | guess 1Gigabit routers are not far big and powerfull than our currents netop computers |
| 16:14.46 | viric | ah yes, gigabit routers must be quite fast |
| 16:14.57 | viric | here we have a linksys with kamikaze... |
| 16:15.11 | viric | And it saturates at ~4MB/s between WAN and LAN |
| 16:15.30 | viric | that's a bit annoying, given that we have a fast WAN link :) |
| 16:15.41 | viric | but we can live with that bottleneck |
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| 16:21.26 | kristianpaul | hope the router can live as well :) |
| 16:23.26 | viric | yes, quite well :) |
| 16:23.36 | kyak | viric: i guess you have NAT between WAN and LAN? |
| 16:23.50 | viric | yes |
| 16:24.02 | kyak | i had that too.. after i bridged WAN and LAN, problem went away |
| 16:24.30 | qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu: uboot-xburst: update to v2012.10-rc2 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1079647 |
| 16:28.40 | viric | kyak: ha! well, I can't do that without trouble :) |
| 16:32.00 | kyak | yeah, this is not always possible :) in my configuration, i have a server before the router |
| 16:32.13 | kyak | which is doing NAT |
| 16:34.58 | viric | this openwrt does vpn with openvpn too |
| 16:35.05 | viric | works well enough :) |
| 16:38.14 | viric | have you seen http://www.wikispeed.com/ ? :) appeared on the press today |
| 16:39.01 | kyak | mine does two WiFi's :) i decided to set up a guest BSSID. this is insane how capable this 7 years device is (with openwrt, that is) |
| 16:39.41 | kyak | no, what's that? |
| 16:40.33 | viric | collaborative open source car |
| 16:44.19 | kyak | for "collaborative" there is AUTOSAR already. "open source" - what, you are going to modify your car's SW? ISO26262 will kick your ass really fast |
| 16:44.34 | kyak | i'm sorry, i'm just not too far from automotive subject |
| 16:44.39 | kyak | this is going nowhere |
| 16:44.46 | wpwrak | kyak: if they can still catch you after the tuning ;-) |
| 16:45.16 | viric | :) |
| 16:45.31 | viric | I didn't pay much attention; I just saw it on the news |
| 16:45.45 | kyak | they can always catch you dead, which they will if you tune wrong :) |
| 16:46.46 | kyak | this is a car and human lifes were talking about, not some god damn linux |
| 16:51.54 | kyak | wpwrak: btw, they've fixed that problem with mkfs.ubifs: http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/linux-mtd/2012-October/044488.html. The resulting patch contains 4 'goto' though :) |
| 16:54.37 | wpwrak | i don't see any "goto" ? |
| 16:56.38 | kyak | there is an updated patch in attachement |
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| 16:57.34 | kyak | http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/linux-mtd/attachments/20121010/b1472c7b/attachment.bin here |
| 16:58.54 | wpwrak | a download-only attachment ? lovely. i'll just believe you ;-) |
| 16:59.52 | whitequark | text/x-patch |
| 16:59.55 | kyak | is it still true that using goto's is a very bad coding practice? or something has changed? |
| 17:00.05 | whitequark | wpwrak: consider using curl |
| 17:00.16 | whitequark | kyak: kinda, except if you use it for error handling |
| 17:00.33 | kyak | mm.. might be the case here. The code handles errors |
| 17:01.00 | whitequark | e.g.: int error = 0; error = fun1(); if(error != 0) goto err; [repeat as needed] error: close(fd1); close(fd2); |
| 17:01.12 | whitequark | ah yes |
| 17:01.18 | wpwrak | in general, goto is okay if it leads to more understandable code. error handling is a situation where this is commonly the case |
| 17:01.20 | whitequark | it's also used inside kernel in the same fashion |
| 17:01.25 | whitequark | wpwrak: true. |
| 17:01.39 | whitequark | also, breaking from nested loops |
| 17:01.47 | larsc | kyak: 'goto conisdered harmful' has been a bit harmful, because now everybody panics when he sees a goto. |
| 17:01.49 | wpwrak | yup :) |
| 17:01.58 | whitequark | and in very very rare cases you need a computed goto |
| 17:02.20 | wpwrak | that's called "switch" :) |
| 17:02.22 | whitequark | naw |
| 17:02.27 | kyak | what is a computed goto? |
| 17:02.34 | whitequark | a gcc extension: goto *addr |
| 17:02.39 | whitequark | which performs what you think it does |
| 17:02.58 | kyak | ah.. like, goto on the fly.. now this is definitely harmful |
| 17:03.08 | whitequark | wpwrak: Safari's JavaScriptCore interpreter uses this |
| 17:03.13 | larsc | but it's not that harmful if you use it to create non spaghetti code. most other control-flow changing statements can also be considered harmful since they allow you to create bad code |
| 17:03.50 | whitequark | it has bytecode where opcode id is machine word long and is exactly the same as the address of the label handling it in interpreter loop |
| 17:04.16 | whitequark | which sounds pretty insane, but also allowed them to achieve pretty nice performance without sacrificing portability of C |
| 17:04.47 | whitequark | it was also somehow related with fitting the entire interpreter loop in L1 cache |
| 17:04.56 | whitequark | I'm not quite sure how switch prevented that, but it did |
| 17:06.28 | whitequark | ah, in fact computed goto is an extension specifically created for writing interpreter loops |
| 17:08.00 | wpwrak | cases where the address of a label affects the direct input of that computed goto may be the only situations where you need that sort of hack |
| 17:08.26 | wpwrak | as soon as there is some indirection, a switch () could be optimized to be equivalent |
| 17:15.21 | whitequark | wpwrak: the problem is probably that adding another layer of indirection breaks branch predictor |
| 17:16.44 | whitequark | http://wingolog.org/archives/2012/06/27/inside-javascriptcores-low-level-interpreter |
| 17:19.39 | whitequark | this comment is also pretty nice |
| 17:19.39 | whitequark | http://wingolog.org/archives/2012/06/27/inside-javascriptcores-low-level-interpreter#bf8e6cfb6c54396f66d75c475676b94b3b65cea7 |
| 17:28.27 | viric | goto isn't that bad; and compilers are quite good at giving warnings and errors for harmful gotos |
| 17:31.16 | whitequark | eh? warnings and errors? can you provide an example? |
| 17:32.04 | wpwrak | whitequark: what i mean is that another layer of indirection is likely to move the trick of using address as opcode beyond the optimization horizon of the compiler. it could still do it if it's able to determine that these values are used only as tokens and only inside that function, but it's much harder. |
| 17:32.23 | wpwrak | and if the values are passed outside the function, it gets even worse |
| 17:33.16 | whitequark | wpwrak: yeah, exactly |
| 17:33.22 | whitequark | no known compilers are able to determine that |
| 17:33.58 | whitequark | you'd need lots of visibility tricks and whatnot. maybe a very, very good LTO-capable compiler could do that. |
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| 23:01.28 | arossDOTme | wolfspraul |
| 23:01.31 | arossDOTme | wolfspraul: |
| 23:01.49 | arossDOTme | are you there |
| 23:04.05 | wolfspraul | yes :-) |
| 23:04.07 | wolfspraul | good morning |
| 23:08.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | funny job right now: integrate a couple of "rollercoasters" and CT or MR to a smooth system |
| 23:09.40 | arossDOTme | arr thanks, my mailing list posts are being rejected. My email address works and I did a post with it but now it's rejected. |
| 23:10.03 | arossDOTme | its the aross.me one |
| 23:10.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.amst.co.at/sites/products/humancentrifuges/centrifuge.html http://www.swissray.com/formulaplus.html |
| 23:10.50 | arossDOTme | maillist_qihardware@thatdomain.me or something like that |
| 23:10.58 | wolfspraul | hmm |
| 23:11.18 | wolfspraul | thanks for the heads up! |
| 23:11.21 | wolfspraul | let me check this... |
| 23:11.24 | arossDOTme | thanks |
| 23:11.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | *burp* |
| 23:11.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | n8 |
| 23:12.17 | wolfspraul | n8 |
| 23:13.54 | wolfspraul | he :-) |
| 23:14.17 | wolfspraul | I set your account to 'mod' because I ran into your last mail which was so borderline 'spammish' that I thought it's just spam |
| 23:14.37 | wolfspraul | sorry about that, and thanks for bringing it up here |
| 23:14.57 | wolfspraul | if I see junk, I tend to quite radically delete whatever I can in the minimum amount of time, sometimes with some collateral damage... |
| 23:27.54 | arossDOTme | thanks, i think :) |
| 23:31.34 | arossDOTme | Shall I resend them? Or do you send me dinner to the list? |
| 23:33.40 | arossDOTme | I think i can see how my last post looked like spam. |
| 23:35.03 | wolfspraul | resend please, I think that's the easiest |
| 23:35.19 | wolfspraul | thanks |
| 23:35.23 | arossDOTme | ok spam time! lol |
| 23:35.50 | arossDOTme | ok i will quite the spam bad jokes |
| 23:37.03 | arossDOTme | soory |
| 23:46.50 | *** join/#qi-hardware heberth (~heberth@190.6.162.167) |
| 23:49.36 | wpwrak | now i'm curious about the content :) |
| 23:49.59 | wpwrak | was it the "Anti Thief" ? |
| 23:51.07 | arossDOTme | yep |
| 23:51.25 | arossDOTme | resent |
| 23:52.59 | wpwrak | i mean, was it the "Anti Thief" that triggered wolfgang's spam finger ? |
| 23:54.31 | arossDOTme | It was my happy,keen "my nano note ordered" post. |
| 23:54.49 | arossDOTme | "Yea My Nano Note Is Coming!" |
| 23:55.42 | wpwrak | aah ! yeah, happy people are suspicious. |
| 23:56.23 | arossDOTme | all the ads have given happy a unhappy name. |
| 23:56.37 | arossDOTme | the =those |