| 00:26.12 | wolfspra1l | oh that's nice, thanks larsc |
| 00:54.29 | wpwrak | so it takes about one month from the moment they begin work until they emit the final document ? and yes, it's those emissions in the low MHz range that i'd be most concerned about. i should have kept the old radios of my parents. they would cover that range :) |
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| 01:00.58 | wolfspra1l | the testing itself takes a few hours only, at most |
| 01:01.12 | wolfspra1l | I tried to put things in perspective, I think for your little thing you already worry too much about "fcc" |
| 01:01.30 | wolfspra1l | your problem will be to find a lab that cares about a one-time little nothing like testing your board |
| 01:01.41 | wolfspra1l | where 99% of people who would make such type of device wouldn't bother with anything fcc :-) |
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| 01:02.27 | wolfspra1l | the idea of the fcc is to avoid something like "if I turn this on, will my cellphone stop working" etc. |
| 01:02.50 | wolfspra1l | you can just say 'no' with your professional authority/design 'excellency', and done |
| 01:04.09 | wolfspra1l | at least if more people would think like you, testing labs wouldn't worry about their growth opportunities :-) |
| 01:05.12 | wolfspra1l | for example when importing into the US itself, home territory of the FCC, you would check this on the import form, even for large quantities |
| 01:05.33 | wolfspra1l | "An FCC grant of equipment authorization and an FCC ID are not required, but the equipment complies with FCC technical requirements." |
| 01:06.02 | wolfspra1l | if you 'certify' this "complies with tech req" with your own professional authority, including some realization you had in your dream that there cannot be an issue, nothing will ever happen |
| 01:06.08 | wolfspra1l | and everybody can focus on making money :-) |
| 01:06.35 | wolfspra1l | I doubt you find a lab to take care of this little business, that is exactly why the labs in europe just don't even pickup the phone unless you wire 25k usd upfront |
| 01:06.38 | wolfspra1l | I can understand them :-) |
| 01:07.10 | wolfspra1l | in China you may be lucky off-season that someone takes your thing, and I think it can easily all be finished in 1 day, testing, paperwork, stamp, done |
| 01:07.15 | wolfspra1l | there will *not* be an FCC ID in any case |
| 01:07.44 | wolfspra1l | but if there ever were a liability issue (very very unlikely), you could drag in that poor lab and point fingeres at them, I guess |
| 01:07.57 | wolfspra1l | so they make you pay a little |
| 01:08.21 | wolfspra1l | risk = profit. if you outsource all risk, you cannot make a profit, by definition. |
| 01:09.11 | wolfspra1l | I suggest you just make that statement of compliance yourself, and it can be verified by an FCC approved lab at a later point shall that become necessary |
| 01:13.16 | wpwrak | well, this sort of thing may come up when someone wants to import/resell |
| 01:13.26 | wolfspra1l | that's why you make that statement |
| 01:13.40 | wolfspra1l | you are the designer, you know the board, someone must STEP UP |
| 01:13.52 | wolfspra1l | you want to point fingers at a lab and make them step up, fine. then you find such lab and pay. |
| 01:14.00 | wolfspra1l | your device is an unintentional radiator in any case |
| 01:14.04 | wolfspra1l | even you admit that :-) |
| 01:14.28 | wolfspra1l | so just say so, just say "yes, it does comply with the fcc technical requirements for unintentional radiators" |
| 01:14.35 | wolfspra1l | check the box on the import form, and done |
| 01:14.50 | wpwrak | the difference between me and the lab is that they have the equipment to actually see what's going on :) the paperwork itself is much less of a concern |
| 01:14.58 | wolfspra1l | of course if you keep saying "but I am not sure", then fine, pay for it |
| 01:16.02 | wolfspra1l | I can just tell you that business doesn't work with that kind of hesitation level |
| 01:16.14 | wolfspra1l | that little thing won't radiate |
| 01:16.18 | wolfspra1l | and even if it does, it can be addressed later |
| 01:16.29 | wolfspra1l | just someone needs to step up, make a decision, take responsibility, and move forward |
| 01:16.54 | wolfspra1l | make good design choices, and you are safe |
| 01:16.56 | wolfspra1l | really |
| 01:17.23 | wpwrak | (good design choices) tricky without any feedback :) |
| 01:17.27 | wolfspra1l | that's already much more professional love than 90% of electronic china toys will ever receive |
| 01:17.38 | wolfspra1l | you worry about the wrong things |
| 01:17.45 | wolfspra1l | that's why you make no money :-) |
| 01:18.03 | wolfspra1l | chinese little electronic plastic toys for kids are flooding the world, right? |
| 01:18.12 | wolfspra1l | including poisonous colors and what not |
| 01:18.20 | wolfspra1l | and including the crudest possible electronics you can imagine |
| 01:18.22 | wolfspra1l | radiating? |
| 01:18.23 | wolfspra1l | ha ha |
| 01:18.24 | wolfspra1l | WHO KNOWS? |
| 01:18.26 | wolfspra1l | fcc? |
| 01:18.28 | wolfspra1l | OH |
| 01:18.31 | wolfspra1l | MY |
| 01:18.34 | wolfspra1l | GOD |
| 01:18.37 | wolfspra1l | you must be living in another world... |
| 01:19.05 | wolfspra1l | you personally have 100 times the skill level of the entire hw engineering team of any chinese electronic toy maker |
| 01:19.21 | wolfspra1l | they wouldn't even know what fcc is, actually |
| 01:19.27 | wolfspra1l | or that they are making 'unintentional radiators' |
| 01:19.36 | wolfspra1l | anyway, that's my perspective... |
| 01:20.23 | wolfspra1l | my advice: |
| 01:20.47 | wolfspra1l | 1) step up and make the professional statement that your device meets the requirements for an fcc unindentional radiator, by your own authority and design excellency |
| 01:21.00 | wpwrak | the chinese have the advantage of anonymity ;-) |
| 01:21.05 | wolfspra1l | 2) be open-minded to having this verified by an fcc approved lab at any time, shall there be doubts about your authority |
| 01:21.14 | wolfspra1l | no, not really |
| 01:21.35 | wolfspra1l | it's just a non-issue, you don't realize that you yourself may very well possess even more than the 'typical' professional whatever to make this kind of statement |
| 01:21.39 | wolfspra1l | you think the lab has some geniuses? |
| 01:21.52 | wpwrak | no. but they have equipment :) |
| 01:21.53 | wolfspra1l | and on a production line, you are dealing with component variations |
| 01:22.07 | wolfspra1l | and even though you know all this, you can't just cut through |
| 01:22.12 | wolfspra1l | your device will not radiate |
| 01:22.21 | wolfspra1l | not at the level that the fcc would worry about |
| 01:22.25 | wpwrak | lemme do some calculations ... |
| 01:22.30 | wolfspra1l | so it's an 'unintentional radiator' |
| 01:22.38 | wolfspra1l | like for example millions of cheap electronic plastic toys |
| 01:22.50 | wolfspra1l | out of which many may actually very well radiate like hell |
| 01:23.10 | wolfspra1l | because the 'engineers' that fumbled together those crude electronics make the absolute most ridiculous beginner mistakes you could imagine |
| 01:23.21 | wolfspra1l | like the worst worst worst combination, like in a textbook to demonstrate how *not* to do it |
| 01:23.34 | wolfspra1l | yet the devices are being made, shipped, sold, taxed, etc. everybody seems happy |
| 01:23.37 | wolfspra1l | except werner :-) |
| 01:24.40 | wpwrak | hmm. if i consider the high-current paths as RC filters, i get a cut-off frequency of 80 MHz. pretty high. |
| 01:26.57 | wpwrak | but i take the message that FCC compliance checking may be something to do in parallel with other things, i.e., not something you actually busy-wait for |
| 01:27.16 | wolfspra1l | step up |
| 01:27.27 | wolfspra1l | your device is an unintentional radiator, at best |
| 01:27.40 | wolfspra1l | or are you hiding something? |
| 01:27.45 | wolfspra1l | :-) |
| 01:28.14 | wolfspra1l | if you follow the commonly understood principles to minimize radiation, you WILL BE FINE |
| 01:28.30 | wolfspra1l | because then you already do much more than all the chinese electronic toys that are flooding the world |
| 01:29.41 | wolfspra1l | the only thing that radiates is your uncertainty about your own design :-) |
| 01:30.58 | wpwrak | hmm. the "commonly understood principles" would be multilayer and extra load caps to drive down the frequency. designing defensively has its price. |
| 01:31.42 | wolfspra1l | make the extra effort and buy a 2 USD chinese toy outside somewhere, if Argentina can still afford to import them |
| 01:31.47 | wolfspra1l | take it apart |
| 01:31.51 | wolfspra1l | take a deep breadth |
| 01:31.55 | wolfspra1l | and arrive in the real world |
| 01:33.17 | wpwrak | hmm. i also have a relatively high switching frequency in high-current paths. those toys probably don't. |
| 01:40.53 | wpwrak | the test reports for the Ben are interesting. very specific design recommendations. |
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| 07:49.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | yay |
| 07:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: voltage, length of *free* wires acting for antenna. all you care about |
| 07:51.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | get a 100nF next to each chip's VDD-GND |
| 07:51.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | done |
| 07:51.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless you're dealing with switched mode PSU |
| 07:52.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | which by design are nasty little radiators - I notice that every time my DCF77 clock refuses to sync when N810 or N900 (incl USB wallwart charger) is closer than 150cm |
| 07:54.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | get a multiband radio/receiver (150kHz..50MHz), see if you can find some 'carrier' that vanishes when you power down DUT. place receiver 1m from DUT. all you need for "equipment" |
| 07:56.05 | pang | DocScrutinizer05: that's useful, thanks =) |
| 07:56.20 | pang | do you have suggestions for receiver hw and sw? |
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| 07:56.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, Sony has nice stuff |
| 07:56.39 | pang | will a basic RTL-SDR and gnu radio setup work? |
| 07:57.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | way too complicated, introduces too much unknown variables |
| 07:58.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | Sony ICF-SW7600GR, Sony ICF-SW35, Sony Weltempfänger Icf-sw11/s |
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| 08:03.43 | pang | Sony ICF-SW7600GR looks nice, with the scan mode |
| 08:04.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | sony-icfsw7600gr is actually well suited for the task, continuous band from 150kHz to 30MHz |
| 08:04.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | the smaller ones you'll hope for 1st harmonic of some spike out of band will be in band for your receiver |
| 08:05.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | those "radiators" never are perfect transmitters not having any harmonics and sidebands |
| 08:07.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | but honestly, up to maybe 3.3V supply I'd not worry for anything without a step-up converter |
| 08:09.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the general FCC "paper" for consumer devices says: "you may experience interference from this device to any nearby radios, TV, etc. Increase distance between the two devices in that case" |
| 08:10.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | fair enough, huh? ;-) |
| 08:11.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | German regulations are way stricter here than FCC |
| 08:14.55 | pang | i'm based in Norway, and we just follow EEC regs |
| 08:15.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | the whole stuff got massively unified worldwide during last ~30 years |
| 08:16.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise trade was impossible |
| 08:17.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | 30 years ago plugging in your own 600R landline phone to the wall outlet was a crime in Germany ;-) |
| 08:17.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | then came modems |
| 08:17.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | eventually modems >2400baud |
| 08:18.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | and lots and lots of people didn't get it why those mustn't be used in Germany while they work just fine in all the rest of the world |
| 08:18.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically back when everybody became a criminal |
| 08:18.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) |
| 08:18.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | then they relaxed stuff |
| 08:20.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | FAX machine not rented from german telecom and configured properly by their service dude - WOOOOOOOOOOH EVIL! ;-P |
| 08:20.12 | whitequark | 600R? |
| 08:20.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | landline |
| 08:20.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | a-b |
| 08:20.31 | whitequark | no clue |
| 08:20.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | analog |
| 08:20.42 | whitequark | ah. |
| 08:20.54 | whitequark | but why is it called 600R? |
| 08:21.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | because that's the nominal line impedance |
| 08:21.17 | whitequark | that simple |
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| 08:21.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | yay |
| 08:21.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | freenode \o/ |
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| 10:57.39 | LunaVorax | Hello! |
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| 11:39.51 | wolfspra1l | hi |
| 11:40.40 | LunaVorax | hi wolfspra1l :) |
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| 11:44.04 | *** join/#qi-hardware paul_boddie (~paulbodd@hfaistos.uio.no) |
| 11:59.25 | paul_boddie | The Wiki has a NanoNote category and a Ben NanoNote category, the latter with significantly more pages. I guess we should at least put the former category's pages in the latter category unless they're too general for the model-specific category. |
| 12:05.00 | wolfspra1l | definitely, merge together into the bigger one sounds like a good idea |
| 12:05.05 | wolfspra1l | thanks for the initiative! |
| 12:10.22 | paul_boddie | There aren't as many pages as I thought, thankfully. Most of the items are images which I may also try and recategorise, but I was mostly thinking of the convenience of seeing all useful resources in a single category. |
| 12:11.10 | paul_boddie | It also helps me to find stuff out that I didn't already know. ;-) |
| 12:14.21 | paul_boddie | I got numpy working at the weekend, by the way. I think people asked for that once upon a time. The catch is that you need to build it with eglibc, and there are some issues with eglibc that I need to look into. |
| 12:17.22 | paul_boddie | I suppose that the relevant functionality could be ported to uClibc from eglibc, but that's somewhat outside my experience and expertise, currently. |
| 13:10.54 | whitequark | news from the russian sonar-manufacturing company |
| 13:11.23 | whitequark | the main employee has ordered 4-layer boards with 0.1mm wide traces and p&p machine mounting |
| 13:11.52 | whitequark | for 0m5 RUR (around 15k USD) |
| 13:12.04 | whitequark | and he _accidentally_ swapped top and bottom layers |
| 13:15.39 | pang | =) |
| 13:18.03 | whitequark | pang: you probably have missed the immense stupidity of entire thing |
| 13:18.11 | whitequark | grep on http://irclog.whitequark.org by keyword "sonar" |
| 13:26.49 | rz2k | whitequark: that is the one where grindars works? |
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| 13:35.11 | whitequark | yep |
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| 13:36.05 | paul_boddie | wolfspra1l: The EU shop on the NanoNote page doesn't sell hardware any more as far as I am aware. Should we link to other resellers instead or is this going to offend someone? :-) |
| 13:37.37 | rz2k | lol, I remember that sonar with hole in case for crystal. |
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| 13:55.30 | xiangfu | paul_boddie, I agree. link to other resellers. :) |
| 13:55.50 | paul_boddie | xiangfu: Done already! People can always revert my changes. ;-) |
| 13:56.01 | xiangfu | paul_boddie, great. |
| 13:56.33 | paul_boddie | xiangfu: Did you ever look at eglibc, by the way? No-one seems to want to talk about it. :-) |
| 13:57.02 | xiangfu | paul_boddie, eglibc, no. |
| 13:57.50 | xiangfu | eglibc, since the openwrt using uClibc by default. so I followed openwrt. using uClibc. I have no idea which one is good or bad. |
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| 13:58.39 | xiangfu | search eglibc vs uclibc |
| 13:58.42 | paul_boddie | I had thought about trying the latest "buildroot" to see whether I could fix other stuff as well, although my initial aim was to have as much working stuff on the NanoNote as possible, so I went for the 2012-04 build. |
| 14:00.03 | xiangfu | "The EGLIBC maintainers hope that EGLIBC will be binary compatible with GLIBC" |
| 14:00.39 | paul_boddie | It probably should be as it's derived from glibc. |
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| 14:14.39 | lindi- | afaik they are merging the changes back now finally |
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| 14:17.17 | qwebirc35176 | Hi for all |
| 14:17.34 | qwebirc35176 | The link sources of the page http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/qi-kernel/ is broken for a lot of days... |
| 14:17.40 | qwebirc35176 | can you take a look at this? |
| 14:17.52 | xiangfu | qwebirc35176, Hi |
| 14:18.03 | xiangfu | that is a known bug. |
| 14:18.22 | qwebirc35176 | xiangfu: Tanks for the answer |
| 14:18.26 | xiangfu | the web is broken. |
| 14:18.36 | qwebirc35176 | xiangfu: There is a way to I see the code in browser? |
| 14:19.21 | xiangfu | qwebirc35176, you can still download all qi-kernel code by git clone: 'git clone git://projects.qi-hardware.com/qi-kernel.git' |
| 14:20.05 | qwebirc35176 | But I'm in a Windows machine, my boring job obligates me to use this ¬¬ |
| 14:20.18 | qwebirc35176 | and I'm doing a radio player for OD, and I have some ideas |
| 14:20.44 | qwebirc35176 | and I need to take a look at the code... |
| 14:20.46 | qwebirc35176 | =/ |
| 14:21.26 | xiangfu | you can download a windows version git of cause. :) |
| 14:24.40 | xiangfu | qwebirc35176, I just update the http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/qi-kernel/ page. notice people download code by using git clone command |
| 14:27.12 | qwebirc35176 | Hum, that the only way I trhink =D |
| 14:28.05 | qwebirc35176 | xiangfu: So, what do you think to remove the source entry of the web page? |
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| 14:29.26 | qwebirc35176 | xiangfu: Because I think that more people will try to see the code at web =D |
| 14:30.14 | xiangfu | qwebirc35176, thanks. done |
| 14:30.16 | qwebirc35176 | xiangfu: Sorry, your note told the people that web is broken, thamks a lot xiangfu ! |
| 14:34.22 | xiangfu | notice that after I review the page. all much better |
| 14:34.50 | paul_boddie | Interesting: https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9675 - I hope to get eglibc 2.16.1 to build, though, as something went wrong with 2.15, I think. |
| 15:17.24 | paul_boddie | LunaVorax: Which of these pages is the best: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/How_to_reflash/fr or http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Comment_reflasher ? My French isn't good enough to make a judgement, but you seem to have written one of them. |
| 15:19.11 | LunaVorax | I'm reading them |
| 15:20.50 | LunaVorax | paul_boddie, http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/How_to_reflash/fr needs a little fixing but it's definitely better |
| 15:22.08 | LunaVorax | It's good, I fixed http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/How_to_reflash/fr |
| 15:22.12 | paul_boddie | LunaVorax: Things like choosing between the imperative and infinitive is always best done by a native speaker, I think. |
| 15:22.24 | LunaVorax | Maybe |
| 15:22.35 | LunaVorax | I have the advantage of having a French teacher as a mother |
| 15:22.37 | LunaVorax | :D |
| 15:22.43 | LunaVorax | So in any cases I can ask her |
| 15:23.11 | LunaVorax | Plus, she isn't familiar with computer science so I can use her as noob-proof test |
| 15:23.35 | LunaVorax | That reminds me I should find time to help you translate the wiki |
| 15:23.48 | LunaVorax | I was translating some things some time ago and College got in the way |
| 15:23.48 | paul_boddie | OK, thanks for the quick edit! I used to occasionally write simple French documentation a long time ago, and probably just followed the house style. I'll redirect Comment_reflasher to How to reflash/fr. |
| 15:24.12 | LunaVorax | paul_boddie, sounds like a very good idead |
| 15:24.19 | LunaVorax | lead |
| 15:24.23 | LunaVorax | dammit idead |
| 15:24.26 | LunaVorax | .... |
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| 15:24.47 | LunaVorax | It's too hot to type on the keyboard |
| 15:27.02 | viric | What do you think of the TI CC11XX radios? |
| 15:27.36 | LunaVorax | Btw paul_boddie how did you know I spoke french? |
| 15:28.52 | paul_boddie | I saw your username in the history for the How to reflash/fr page. :-) |
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| 15:30.31 | LunaVorax | Oh right |
| 15:30.42 | LunaVorax | The translation sounded familiar... |
| 15:34.11 | paul_boddie | You made the right choice preferring your own page, then. ;-) |
| 15:43.14 | LunaVorax | Hahaha |
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| 15:43.29 | LunaVorax | It would have been funny if I did not |
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| 19:15.01 | qi-bot | Fabricatorz: Linux User's Group of Davis tonight with @hypermodern about @openfontlibrary @qihardware and @sharism http://t.co/yezBy3WV... ( 237628709882966016@fabricatorz - 27s ago via HootSuite ) |
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