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| 02:35.13 | wolfspra1l | programming question: any downside to using designated c99-style initializers to initialize union members? |
| 02:35.37 | wolfspra1l | I haven't done that before but c99 feels kinda stable and well supported now, no? |
| 02:35.56 | wolfspra1l | unless I find a reason not to, I'll go ahead with .xxx = ... |
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| 03:37.44 | whitequark | there was some really weird incompatibility with some software |
| 03:37.50 | whitequark | but if you stick to gcc/clang it should be fine |
| 03:38.32 | whitequark | hm |
| 03:38.47 | whitequark | I think that was armcc... not sure actually |
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| 07:56.22 | wpwrak | wolfspra1l: hmm, when you take something to FCC approval checking, how does that work ? let's say a simple circuit without radio. i.e., how "finished" does the device have to be ? and do you send the device to the test lab when it has reached that state of maturity or do you send them development prototypes to accelerate the process ? |
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| 09:44.37 | LunaVorax | Hello! |
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| 10:39.55 | wolfspra1l | testing, hmm |
| 10:40.01 | wolfspra1l | wpwrak: that's a long story :-) |
| 10:40.10 | wolfspra1l | the FCC works with approved labs |
| 10:40.27 | wolfspra1l | so for authentic fcc testing, you need to work with an approved lab |
| 10:40.50 | wolfspra1l | there may well be one in Buenos Aires, I don't know. or maybe not. in China they are everywhere (the real ones, in addition to a flood of fake ones) |
| 10:41.18 | wolfspra1l | mostly those labs (=companies) are offering all sorts of engineering and consulting services, so what you use them for is really your own decision |
| 10:41.24 | wolfspra1l | they love to sell you as much as possible, naturally |
| 10:42.10 | wolfspra1l | once you passed the testing, you can still make modifications to your design or production process, but at which point exactly this falls out of the first testing then and a re-testing is necessary is a grey area and comes down to your own understanding of quality, at some point |
| 10:42.32 | wolfspra1l | some people are just letting whatever 'brick' pass the testing, and sell something entirely differently |
| 10:42.38 | wolfspra1l | and nobody will ever check or care |
| 10:43.21 | wolfspra1l | I've seen cases where people starting selling a product that was totally different under the name of an old one because "renaming is expensive" |
| 10:44.03 | wolfspra1l | other take the testing more serious, and once they make a change (in design, production process or sw) that they think might affect the test result, they will voluntarily resubmit and want to work toward a better product anyway |
| 10:44.25 | wolfspra1l | the external engineering is not too different from any in-house engineering anyway, since a normal company will pay their employees, they may as well pay an outside service provider |
| 10:45.00 | wolfspra1l | I think the category you are looking at is 'unintentional radiator' |
| 10:45.24 | wolfspra1l | you should be able to get a certification for about 1000 USD or so, and yes it really only makes sense with case imho |
| 10:45.41 | wolfspra1l | that's about it :-) |
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| 13:09.30 | wpwrak | (long story) yeah :) at OM, i got to see the tips of that iceberg, but never had the entire picture. |
| 13:09.55 | wpwrak | (unintentional radiator) yup :) |
| 13:11.30 | wpwrak | so for a completely new design, perhaps it would make sense to have an early prototype "pre-certified" to make sure it doesn't have major issues. USD 1k isn't all that bad anyway. |
| 13:16.59 | wpwrak | how much time does such a certification (or attempt) usually take, from sending the device until the result is known ? i think there's an extra delay until the actual certificate is issued, isn't there ? |
| 13:36.37 | wolfspra1l | calling it a day, but quick... it mostly comes down to getting an 'appointment'/free time for their lab |
| 13:37.00 | wolfspra1l | which can be anywhere from a few days later if they are not very busy to a month later in high season |
| 13:37.27 | wolfspra1l | I think if it's a lab you never worked with before, it will be difficult to arrange it all remotely, too many communication issues |
| 13:37.40 | wpwrak | ah yes, better to avoid the pre-xmas rush :) |
| 13:37.54 | wolfspra1l | the key is to find a friendly small lab that is officially certified as a FCC lab and then start working with them |
| 13:38.08 | wolfspra1l | yes but the xmas rush may be around now actually :-) |
| 13:38.24 | wpwrak | i suppose you know such (a) lab(s) ? |
| 13:38.45 | wolfspra1l | last time I worked with one in nanjing, the docs are uploaded somewhere, which I can locate tomorrow |
| 13:38.49 | wpwrak | (xmas) hmm. people have too much money. they should spend it only once per year :) |
| 13:38.55 | wolfspra1l | but I do think you should first look locally, ideally even in buenos aires |
| 13:39.14 | wolfspra1l | well the factories are in xmas season now, more or less |
| 13:39.19 | wolfspra1l | and the cert is always last minute... |
| 13:39.27 | wolfspra1l | but I haven't worked with labs in a while, not really up to date now |
| 13:39.52 | wolfspra1l | an unintentional radiator will not get an FCC ID |
| 13:40.02 | wolfspra1l | so I think you can keep this all very low key |
| 13:40.16 | wolfspra1l | in fact most people would not bother at all... |
| 13:40.31 | wolfspra1l | definitely not on the hobbyist or even other 'open hardware' products without naming them now (or pointing fingers...) |
| 13:40.47 | wolfspra1l | it's more 'in style' to not be certified :-) |
| 13:41.05 | wolfspra1l | especially for unintentional radiators (the others most people in that scene wouldn't touch anyway) |
| 13:41.50 | wolfspra1l | why do you think it might radiate at all? |
| 13:42.02 | wolfspra1l | you worry too much :-) |
| 13:42.39 | wolfspra1l | unfortunately I heard horror stories about FCC labs in Europe asking for 25k usd upfront etc. |
| 13:42.58 | wolfspra1l | that is quite possible, given that they want to keep the whole flood of hobbyist/garage projects away that would never turn into good customers anyway |
| 13:43.28 | wolfspra1l | in China the volume is so big in all this, and there are so many (real and fake) labs, they take the small fish as well |
| 13:43.44 | wpwrak | oh, anything can radiate :) all it takes is switching a few signals quickly enough ... (i think the limits go down to pretty low frequencies) |
| 13:44.00 | wolfspra1l | sure I know, but still. I just try to put it into perspective. |
| 13:44.07 | wolfspra1l | that's why it's called 'unintentional radiator' |
| 13:44.27 | wpwrak | i suspect that, if i find anything here, it'll be prohibitively priced |
| 13:44.29 | wolfspra1l | theoretically I would assume mostly everything radiates, at whatever frequency etc. but does it matter? who cares? etc. |
| 13:45.02 | wolfspra1l | possible, yes |
| 13:45.08 | wolfspra1l | but it will be hard to remote-work with a chinese lab especially first-time |
| 13:45.43 | wpwrak | yeha, one would need an EE on the ground to act as interface |
| 13:47.15 | wpwrak | it's basically a form of poverty tax: with proper equipment and a bit of time to learn the rules, one could do all these tests by oneself. that way, there wouldn't be surprises from the certification lab. |
| 13:48.32 | wolfspra1l | maybe you do check, I think on the fcc website they have a list of their certified labs somewhere |
| 13:48.33 | wolfspra1l | hundreds I think, or more |
| 13:48.33 | wolfspra1l | but again, maybe you don't need all this, really |
| 13:48.33 | wolfspra1l | you would not get an FCC ID anyway |
| 13:48.33 | wolfspra1l | so you only get some paperwork that shows that your device meets the requirements for unintentional radiators |
| 13:48.34 | wolfspra1l | even when importing into the US, there are a number of exceptiosn (aside from just incorrect paperwork which many do as well) to get devices without FCC whatever into the country |
| 13:48.34 | wolfspra1l | just read what sparkfun and friends write about those little nasty paper-whatever :-) |
| 13:48.35 | wolfspra1l | for unintentional radiators, I think you are trying to be too perfect |
| 13:48.35 | wolfspra1l | really |
| 13:48.36 | wolfspra1l | people build multi-million USD business with intentional radiators and won't spend a penny (or second) on any of this |
| 13:48.37 | wolfspra1l | businesses |
| 13:48.41 | wolfspra1l | k getting crazy tired here, backlog tomorrow |
| 13:48.57 | wolfspra1l | I will find my old cert paperwork for the ben (which is uploaded somewhere), and also a list of labs maybe |
| 13:49.05 | wolfspra1l | but tomorrow... |
| 13:49.11 | wolfspra1l | n8 |
| 13:49.48 | wpwrak | thanks ! sweet dreams ! :) |
| 13:50.37 | wpwrak | funny. fcc.gov has a bad certificate ;-) |
| 14:00.18 | wpwrak | this seems to be the place with the "known" labs: https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm |
| 14:01.17 | wpwrak | but there's not a single one in the whole region. not even in brazil or mexico. so this is of limited use. |
| 14:02.56 | wpwrak | may well be that everything that gets fcc-certified around here just gets sent to some lab in the US, maybe with a friendly interface person who speaks fluent spanish and/or portugese :) |
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| 14:19.47 | larsc | ust as a side note, the ben cert paperwork is here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/certification/2009_09_30_final/ |
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| 14:22.18 | wpwrak | thanks ! |
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| 16:26.31 | qi-bot | The build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120818-1408 |
| 16:28.24 | paul_boddie | OpenWrt really doesn't seem to like Qt and Gtk+ these days. |
| 16:32.48 | paul_boddie | Anyone here have any eglibc experience? I'm trying to figure out the real cause of "libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work". I think Ubuntu switched to eglibc and now there are thousands of upset people on the Internet. |
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