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| 04:08.02 | qi-bot | Fabricatorz: @yannsionneau Will you send some of the images via email to everyone@fabricatorz.com We'd like to share with more folks @qihardware ( 230152677005332481@fabricatorz - 33s ago via HootSuite ) |
| 05:28.00 | wpwrak | wolfspra1l: btw, how do you go about properly pricing components, for volume production ? do you ask adam to get quotes ? do you ask around yourself ? |
| 05:28.42 | wolfspra1l | not sure what you mean |
| 05:28.54 | wolfspra1l | mostly I focus on how I can actually get the components, not the price |
| 05:29.27 | wolfspra1l | at low volumes (that can go into the thousands), any sort of overhead associated with sourcing is typically more expensive than a component price difference |
| 05:29.46 | wolfspra1l | other than that I think you know the whole sourcing situation quite well |
| 05:29.51 | wolfspra1l | digikey |
| 05:29.59 | wolfspra1l | official distributors in us, taiwan |
| 05:30.21 | wolfspra1l | and then the special case china where 47% of all global semiconductors are being sold nowadays |
| 05:30.45 | wolfspra1l | so maybe it's not the special case after all, we can assume it to go >50% this year? :-) |
| 05:31.22 | wolfspra1l | in china competition is so crazy intense that I can get the 'volume' price down to volume of 1, more or less |
| 05:31.28 | wpwrak | i'm more thinking of millions. find out what chips really cost in the end. digi-key sometimes only go to tiny quantities, like 100 units. most distributors stop at a few 1000 - a bunch of reels, not more. |
| 05:31.37 | wolfspra1l | well, that's a different matter |
| 05:31.46 | wpwrak | that's why i ask ;-) |
| 05:31.49 | wolfspra1l | in those quantities depending what it is you need to hookup with the manufacturer anyway |
| 05:31.53 | wolfspra1l | for forecasting etc. |
| 05:32.06 | wolfspra1l | otherwise you can order 5 million but you won't get it, plain and simple |
| 05:32.11 | wpwrak | sure :) |
| 05:32.32 | wolfspra1l | for large quantities, really large - contact manufacturer directly |
| 05:32.37 | wpwrak | but do you have a means to obtain a rough estimate of the price without actually committing to anything ? |
| 05:32.54 | wpwrak | could be digi-key price * factor |
| 05:32.55 | wolfspra1l | if they don't know you they will probably not waste 1 minute talking with you |
| 05:33.01 | wolfspra1l | no, difficult |
| 05:33.06 | wolfspra1l | you can calculate from raw material costs upwards |
| 05:33.37 | wolfspra1l | digikey is a totally different world then |
| 05:34.07 | wolfspra1l | if I want to order 10 million lcd controllers from ilitek, for example - they assume I know all raw materials and manufacturing costs anyway |
| 05:34.12 | wolfspra1l | there is not 1 buyer who would not know |
| 05:35.07 | wolfspra1l | with a little research you can find solid pricing on wafer starts etc from tsmc, umc, etc. |
| 05:35.22 | wolfspra1l | if you are really buying in those quantities you know all these numbers |
| 05:35.33 | wolfspra1l | and that's the bottom of your negotiation :-) |
| 05:35.58 | wolfspra1l | then there are lots of chips also with special manufacturing, special materials, special whatever |
| 05:36.13 | wpwrak | well, the materials per se are a given. it's most likely tssop-20. the rest depends on how much value the respective company puts on what they do with the silicon. |
| 05:36.23 | wolfspra1l | but again, if you are a serious potential buyer for such chips in millions of units, you will also know exactly |
| 05:36.41 | wolfspra1l | in large quantities, you can definitely think raw materials/processing up |
| 05:36.51 | wolfspra1l | large = millions at least |
| 05:37.00 | wolfspra1l | there's a lot of competition |
| 05:37.09 | wolfspra1l | so why would they not take your money, even if their profit is just 10k usd... |
| 05:37.21 | wolfspra1l | the only exception are chips with really unique and valuable ip |
| 05:37.25 | wpwrak | so, attiny167 or attiny87. first, it would be interesting to know if there's a significant difference between the two. |
| 05:37.32 | wolfspra1l | they are priced by whoever holds the ip :-) |
| 05:37.53 | wolfspra1l | you would need to talk to atmel sales |
| 05:37.53 | wpwrak | (difference ... in terms of price) |
| 05:38.06 | wolfspra1l | how about die space etc? |
| 05:38.24 | wolfspra1l | the problem is most likely those sales guys will not talk to you, or me |
| 05:38.34 | wolfspra1l | because they know as much as we 'inquire', most likely we will not buy |
| 05:38.36 | wpwrak | same package. the rest would have the be found out by x-ray if we're expected to bring that information to the table |
| 05:38.46 | wpwrak | well, or solvents :) |
| 05:39.14 | wolfspra1l | I cannot talk to atmel sales anyway |
| 05:39.19 | wpwrak | why ? |
| 05:39.21 | wolfspra1l | they won't answer |
| 05:39.26 | wpwrak | you tried ? |
| 05:39.28 | wolfspra1l | no |
| 05:39.35 | wolfspra1l | but it's always the same, and makes lots of sense |
| 05:39.37 | wpwrak | or did you make enemies already ? |
| 05:39.42 | wolfspra1l | a buyer for large quantities doesn't just appear on the street |
| 05:39.53 | wolfspra1l | no enemies in business |
| 05:40.08 | wolfspra1l | if someone can make money from me, they will overcome any difficulty, right? :-) |
| 05:40.12 | wolfspra1l | you can try |
| 05:40.21 | wolfspra1l | but like I said, all semiconductor sales I know work with short lists |
| 05:40.25 | wolfspra1l | short lists of known customers |
| 05:40.25 | wpwrak | there are a lot of people who can pay a few USD 100k (for, say, 1 M chips). they can't possibly expect to know them all. |
| 05:41.47 | wolfspra1l | for the type of question you have, I'm afraid only the semiconductor sales people themselves can help |
| 05:41.50 | wolfspra1l | the distributors won't |
| 05:42.03 | wpwrak | atmel isn't that niche. i could imagine a very restrictive policy for things like telephiny chips, but an avr ? |
| 05:42.14 | wolfspra1l | they have a set discount table, and if someone can really outgrow that they will outgrow the distributor anyway |
| 05:42.32 | wolfspra1l | I have not seen 'restrictive policies' |
| 05:42.33 | wolfspra1l | it's just about money |
| 05:42.49 | wolfspra1l | how many sales staff do they have, and how much revenue does each have to generate each day? |
| 05:42.54 | wpwrak | restrictive policy = they won't talk to you |
| 05:42.55 | wolfspra1l | and how many chips have to be sold to make that happen |
| 05:42.57 | wolfspra1l | etc. etc. |
| 05:43.02 | wolfspra1l | no of course not |
| 05:43.05 | wpwrak | of course, at 1 M you may still be too small for the manufacturer |
| 05:43.06 | wolfspra1l | they just want to find the money, the real money |
| 05:43.20 | wolfspra1l | and as we know well, there must be about 1 million times or more talk in the world than money, right? :-) |
| 05:43.23 | wolfspra1l | the nature of money maybe |
| 05:43.31 | wolfspra1l | yes, maybe |
| 05:43.34 | wolfspra1l | it's all just pennies |
| 05:44.13 | wolfspra1l | but does it matter to you? |
| 05:44.24 | wolfspra1l | you can work with raw materials costs anyway |
| 05:44.32 | wolfspra1l | or do you depend on some specific atmel ip? |
| 05:44.35 | wolfspra1l | everything can be changed... |
| 05:44.57 | wolfspra1l | so it's just "how much money does it cost you to switch to ip from vendor x?" vs "how much above cost of raw materials is atmel?" |
| 05:45.07 | wolfspra1l | it can't be that much |
| 05:45.21 | wpwrak | i need to know which MCU i can use. changing MCUs is a bit effort in this case. |
| 05:45.28 | wpwrak | s/bit/big |
| 05:45.28 | qi-bot | wpwrak meant: "i need to know which MCU i can use. changing MCUs is a big effort in this case." |
| 05:45.30 | wolfspra1l | there are few semiconductors with enough strength to really stay away from this raw material comparison |
| 05:45.38 | wolfspra1l | or maybe only for a short period of time, like a few months |
| 05:45.48 | wolfspra1l | yeah a 'bit' effort, fine |
| 05:45.50 | wpwrak | it's not the MCU's IP by itself, but what's built on top. and that's very architecture-specific |
| 05:45.51 | wolfspra1l | but you talk about money |
| 05:45.52 | wolfspra1l | effort so what |
| 05:45.54 | wolfspra1l | your effort |
| 05:45.58 | wpwrak | time is money |
| 05:46.00 | wolfspra1l | if you save/make money, it may still be worth it |
| 05:46.12 | wolfspra1l | yes, but it sets a limit as to how much above raw materials atmel can be |
| 05:46.20 | wolfspra1l | and can be sustainable |
| 05:46.23 | wolfspra1l | sustainably |
| 05:46.29 | wolfspra1l | the digikey prices are on a totally different level |
| 05:46.53 | wpwrak | so you're saying Atmel don't put an unusual margin on top of raw materials, for their AVRs ? |
| 05:46.57 | wolfspra1l | in large quantities, if there is a dollar difference, that's a lot of engineering potential to change chips :-) |
| 05:47.06 | wolfspra1l | I doubt they can |
| 05:47.09 | wolfspra1l | you tell me |
| 05:47.13 | wolfspra1l | switching costs how much? |
| 05:47.14 | wpwrak | i.e., going to TI, microchip, or NXP would yield roughly the same result ? |
| 05:47.14 | wolfspra1l | 100k usd? |
| 05:47.18 | wolfspra1l | so that's very little |
| 05:47.40 | wolfspra1l | it depends on the chip and what's special about it and what of that you really need |
| 05:47.41 | wpwrak | switching costs = 2-4 months |
| 05:47.53 | wolfspra1l | yeah, so all zero in relation to anything 'large volume' |
| 05:48.28 | wpwrak | well, de facto betting on the wrong chip would mean the project will not materialize |
| 05:48.40 | wolfspra1l | understand |
| 05:48.59 | wolfspra1l | but again, there is nothing special in those chips from your perspective |
| 05:49.22 | wolfspra1l | I wouldn't know why you couldn't get them < 1 usd |
| 05:49.26 | wolfspra1l | what's your price now? |
| 05:49.42 | wolfspra1l | even less, why not. but the issue at some point becomes whether it's worth for anyone to talk about another 10 cents less |
| 05:50.01 | wolfspra1l | ilitek sales told me they are now negotiating over 0.5 cents :-) |
| 05:50.20 | wolfspra1l | but think about it, even for a volume of 10 million, that's just what... |
| 05:50.33 | wpwrak | about 1 USD. but digi-key only go up to 100 units. |
| 05:50.42 | wpwrak | they don't even have T&R |
| 05:50.48 | wolfspra1l | 50k usd, right? |
| 05:51.01 | wolfspra1l | can you imagine at a volume of 10 million (!) how many things can go wrong that will immediately cost more than 50k usd? |
| 05:51.17 | wolfspra1l | so someone having the patience/guts to sit down and squeeze those 50k usd out, that is quite extreme |
| 05:51.32 | wpwrak | it's all noise + offset :) |
| 05:51.33 | wolfspra1l | maybe changing one word in the headline of an advertisement will make a bigger difference |
| 05:52.16 | wolfspra1l | but anyway they will still sit down and try to squeeze those 50k usd out as well |
| 05:52.42 | wolfspra1l | if it's 1 usd at digikey, then I am sure in really large volume it can easily be 50 cents or less, 30, 20 |
| 05:52.46 | wolfspra1l | packaging becomes a big issue then |
| 05:53.20 | wolfspra1l | and someone needs to think that taking the time to sit down with you and talk about another 5 cents reduction is worth it for anyone (!), including you |
| 05:56.35 | wpwrak | heh, good point :) |
| 05:57.14 | wpwrak | i also need some LEDs. they're trickier, because there may be .cn equivalents that are cheaper than the ones digi-key have. |
| 05:57.21 | wpwrak | and a USB connector. same thing. |
| 05:57.30 | wolfspra1l | not sure, wait |
| 05:57.39 | wolfspra1l | usb connector - don't buy one from a mainland chinese company |
| 05:57.54 | wolfspra1l | the only advantage they have is that it's really really lousy quality |
| 05:58.32 | wolfspra1l | so pretty much any serious brand company will buy one from a taiwanese or japanese manufacturer |
| 05:58.34 | wpwrak | it doesn't have to have to be premium quality |
| 05:58.38 | wolfspra1l | which may very well have factories in china, of course |
| 05:58.53 | wolfspra1l | and they may sell them primarily in china |
| 05:59.02 | wolfspra1l | but just trying to steer you away from mainland brands in this case |
| 05:59.11 | wolfspra1l | their niche is the rusty niche ;-) |
| 05:59.14 | wolfspra1l | for those connectors... |
| 05:59.17 | wpwrak | yeah, you mentioned connector issues before :) |
| 05:59.34 | wolfspra1l | but of course, for those you can get pricing only in china |
| 05:59.36 | wpwrak | oh, if the thing corrodes after a year in the field, that's perfectly fine |
| 05:59.49 | wolfspra1l | what if it corrodes after 2 weeks? :-) |
| 06:00.07 | wolfspra1l | stay with taiwan/japan brand on those |
| 06:00.11 | wpwrak | that would be bad. should last at least 3 months |
| 06:00.28 | wpwrak | (of light use) |
| 06:00.29 | wolfspra1l | japan are the best but also a little more expensive, so then taiwanese |
| 06:00.37 | wolfspra1l | leds don't know |
| 06:01.39 | wpwrak | alright, leds and connector aren't so critical at the moment, because they're trivial to swap |
| 06:01.53 | wolfspra1l | sure so it's again raw materials price |
| 06:02.00 | wolfspra1l | and processing/manufacturing overhead |
| 06:02.03 | wpwrak | mcu is a different kind of beast |
| 06:02.12 | wolfspra1l | that's why the mainland companies cannot take market share from taiwan/japan brands on the connectors |
| 06:02.21 | wolfspra1l | they could never recoup their investments |
| 06:02.27 | wolfspra1l | so they focus on the rusty niche instead :-) |
| 06:02.35 | wolfspra1l | hire a few guys from the street, and start producing something... |
| 06:02.48 | wpwrak | the leds have one special requirement: they should be in the "knee" for brightness vs. price. the brighter the better - as long as the price doesn't explode |
| 06:02.56 | wolfspra1l | leds don't know, this is an area of extreme investment and competition right now |
| 06:03.10 | wpwrak | yeah :) |
| 06:03.48 | wpwrak | at least the color is simple: red :) and they're in a standard package, 0603. no fancy lenses or anything. |
| 06:08.12 | wpwrak | actually, even the color doesn't matter that much, as long as the forward voltage is around 2 V and they're bright. but red seems to be the most likely candidate. nothing else is as good as red. |
| 06:12.31 | wpwrak | one issue with the mcu is that it'll run outside specs. the oscillator is supposed to deliver 8 MHz but can be calibrated up to something like 13 MHz. i need 12 MHz. but it seems one can get away with that fairly reliably. |
| 06:13.39 | wpwrak | and that ability exists in a whole range of similar chips (by atmel), so it's unlikely to change over night |
| 06:14.24 | wpwrak | particularly not in such an ultra-conservative product line |
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| 13:04.30 | qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: bacon/prog/Makefile: remove references to C2, inherited from f32xbase (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/7fe9ae1 |
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| 18:22.39 | gargon | hello. sorry for this newbie question: how can I set syntax highlighting in vim for eg. python language? For the :syntax on command, I get "cant open file /usr/share/vim/vim73/syntax/syntax.vim" |
| 18:26.27 | pang | did you ask google? |
| 18:26.52 | viric | in the nanonote you mean? |
| 18:27.30 | viric | gargon: it should tell why it can't open it. |
| 18:28.19 | gargon | it simply does not exist |
| 18:29.03 | viric | you should ask people of the distribution you use. |
| 18:29.37 | viric | or whoever was in charge in your system of having put those files there. |
| 18:33.24 | gargon | viric: it is the "official" distribution |
| 18:33.33 | viric | ah, so in the nanonote? |
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| 18:51.54 | gargon | viric: yes, on the nanonote, I forgot to say it |
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| 20:37.22 | viric | gargon: maybe #openwrt people can help better, I don't know. I don't use openwrt in the nanonote. |
| 20:38.12 | gargon | viric: just for curiosity: what are you using on it? |
| 20:39.24 | viric | nanonixos |
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