| 00:00.15 | mth | NO_HZ only applies when the system is idle, not with one task running |
| 00:00.36 | DocScrutinizer06 | U might e right |
| 00:01.03 | DocScrutinizer06 | o/ |
| 00:02.08 | mth | Ayla: can the USB controller be suspended while the freq change happens? |
| 00:02.15 | mth | like we do for the MSC |
| 00:03.00 | DocScrutinizer06 | if you wanna drive this ahead, w/o me playing advocado diabolo(?), provide CPU cycles breakdowns, for the IRQ handler invoked every other time, vs the one task running. Give a ratio |
| 00:03.00 | Ayla | I don't see a reason why it couldn't |
| 00:06.31 | DocScrutinizer06 | Ayla: suspending USB is a friggin complicated and annoying ting to do |
| 00:06.38 | DocScrutinizer06 | and takes tiiiiime |
| 00:06.59 | Ayla | how much time? |
| 00:07.08 | DocScrutinizer06 | but depending on controller you don't need to suspend |
| 00:07.25 | DocScrutinizer06 | (howm much) milliseconds |
| 00:07.36 | DocScrutinizer06 | several |
| 00:08.14 | DocScrutinizer06 | you wanna switch clock so fast it "doesn't even matter" |
| 00:08.39 | DocScrutinizer06 | ideally clock of usb uart is independent |
| 00:09.07 | Ayla | ideally. |
| 00:09.11 | mth | Ayla: I don't think we should be doing PLL changes on demand anyway |
| 00:09.15 | mth | only divider changes |
| 00:09.23 | DocScrutinizer06 | everything after uart is basically not related to clock |
| 00:09.24 | mth | and then only the CPU divider has to be changed |
| 00:09.48 | DocScrutinizer06 | mth: +++ |
| 00:09.54 | Ayla | yes |
| 00:10.01 | DocScrutinizer06 | thats the way |
| 00:10.56 | DocScrutinizer06 | you need to consider other timeframe based hw IF too |
| 00:11.01 | DocScrutinizer06 | like rs232 |
| 00:11.15 | Ayla | but that differs from how the "ondemand" governor works |
| 00:11.16 | DocScrutinizer06 | basically all async hw if |
| 00:11.34 | mth | we can write our own governor |
| 00:11.45 | mth | I'm not even sure how much is gained by running at a lower freq |
| 00:11.55 | mth | vs running fast and then being idle for a while |
| 00:12.01 | DocScrutinizer06 | the trick is to provide an API that changes CPU clock *only* |
| 00:12.18 | DocScrutinizer06 | mth: nuttin |
| 00:12.25 | DocScrutinizer06 | speed to idle |
| 00:12.39 | Ayla | we'd gain a couple of milliwatts |
| 00:12.47 | DocScrutinizer06 | of course depending on overhead |
| 00:12.59 | DocScrutinizer06 | for switching |
| 00:13.04 | mth | Ayla: how did you measure that? |
| 00:13.16 | Ayla | with a multimeter :p |
| 00:13.23 | DocScrutinizer06 | ~listvalues to idle |
| 00:13.24 | mth | I mean, how did you generate the load? |
| 00:13.43 | DocScrutinizer06 | ~listvalues idle |
| 00:14.22 | Ayla | using "yes" IIRC |
| 00:14.34 | mth | but that generated an unlimited load |
| 00:14.42 | DocScrutinizer06 | meh |
| 00:14.46 | mth | in which case an ondemand-style governor won't scale down |
| 00:15.00 | DocScrutinizer06 | shouldn't |
| 00:15.00 | Ayla | I didn't measure with the ondemand governor |
| 00:15.04 | mth | you'd need a load of about 30% or so to get a useful measurement |
| 00:15.40 | DocScrutinizer06 | calculate prime factors of 8744 every hsync |
| 00:15.45 | mth | let's say you compute primes, then computing all primes will simply run faster on a higher clock, so you do more work while consuming more energy |
| 00:15.48 | DocScrutinizer06 | err vsync |
| 00:15.53 | DocScrutinizer06 | ;-) |
| 00:16.18 | mth | computing a fixed number of primes per second would be a fair load to compare on |
| 00:16.27 | DocScrutinizer06 | yep |
| 00:16.43 | Ayla | I'd say the latter is better |
| 00:16.48 | mth | so you'd get to see the effect of a slow clock being busy 60% of the time vs a fast clock busy 30% of the time |
| 00:16.55 | DocScrutinizer06 | rush to idle |
| 00:16.57 | DocScrutinizer06 | is it |
| 00:16.59 | DocScrutinizer06 | usually |
| 00:17.01 | Ayla | judging from the general performance gaps between frequencies, and http://wiki.dingoonity.org/index.php?title=OpenDingux:Development#Power_consumption_measurements |
| 00:17.13 | DocScrutinizer06 | unless idle is <10% |
| 00:17.41 | mth | in PC overclocking, lower freqs save power because the high freqs need a higher voltage supplied to the CPU |
| 00:17.48 | mth | but we're not changing any voltages |
| 00:17.59 | DocScrutinizer06 | where "10" is a guestimatedepending on overhead o switch clock speeds |
| 00:18.32 | mth | that is with the PLL at 34 vs 408 MHz though |
| 00:18.45 | DocScrutinizer06 | idiots at #maemo do OC with UNDERvolting ;-D |
| 00:18.46 | mth | could you also measure the PLL at 408 MHz and a high CPU divider? |
| 00:19.15 | mth | DocScrutinizer06: well, if overheating is the enemy and not instability, it might work |
| 00:19.15 | Ayla | how could I force a high divider? |
| 00:19.32 | whitequark | DocScrutinizer06: on jz4740 everything is bound to master clock |
| 00:19.34 | mth | hardcode it in the cpufreq driver is the easiest way, I guess |
| 00:19.44 | whitequark | hence you cannot easily scale cpufreq if you want your peripherals to work |
| 00:19.49 | whitequark | lcd, usb, ram... everything |
| 00:19.54 | DocScrutinizer06 | overheating is 3rd or 5th concern though |
| 00:20.00 | whitequark | exceptionally stupid design imo |
| 00:20.40 | DocScrutinizer06 | whitequark: we had same on S3C2410 iirc |
| 00:20.48 | mth | yes, you can only scale cpufreq drastically, like 1/3 or 1/2 of the PLL freq, but not 80% |
| 00:20.54 | DocScrutinizer06 | on s2c2442 iirc it been decoupled |
| 00:20.58 | whitequark | s3c? sounds samsung, hmm |
| 00:21.21 | DocScrutinizer06 | samsung S3C, Neo |
| 00:21.25 | mth | I even had to patch the cpufreq infrastructure to get this PLL-changing approach to work at all |
| 00:21.25 | DocScrutinizer06 | O |
| 00:21.26 | DocScrutinizer06 | M |
| 00:21.28 | whitequark | yeah, already found |
| 00:21.32 | DocScrutinizer06 | OM even |
| 00:22.04 | whitequark | mth: wasn't there also some other issue, like cpu clock being bound to ram/bus/dma clock? |
| 00:22.20 | whitequark | where you could theoretically scale it 1/3 or 1/2, but it won't work in practice due to bugs or some other issues |
| 00:22.27 | DocScrutinizer06 | RAM bus, sure |
| 00:22.32 | mth | there are various restrictions about the dividers |
| 00:22.45 | whitequark | I recall reading the datasheet and thinking that one cannot really do *any* cpufreq scaling on that chip |
| 00:22.53 | mth | also, there is the case where raising the PLL freq means you have to increase the memory divider and you end up with a slower system overall |
| 00:23.02 | DocScrutinizer06 | that's why many devices don't run RAM at max speed |
| 00:23.10 | mth | since slower SDRAM has more impact than a slightly faster CPU |
| 00:23.12 | DocScrutinizer06 | incl gta02 iirc |
| 00:23.50 | whitequark | yeah |
| 00:24.03 | whitequark | jz4740 divider system isn't suited to scaling at all |
| 00:24.04 | mth | we should be testing CL=2 vs CL=3 for the SDRAM, it's possible CL=3 aligns better with the high PLL values we'd like for the CPU |
| 00:24.08 | whitequark | it's a set-and-forget system |
| 00:24.44 | whitequark | I'd say that proper wait states would give more in that case |
| 00:24.44 | mth | except that our users like to overclock a bit if it means getting 60 fps instead of 45 fps from an emulator or game |
| 00:25.06 | whitequark | well, it |
| 00:25.14 | whitequark | 's pretty much the same set-and-forget |
| 00:25.27 | mth | CL is a kind of wait state, isn't it? |
| 00:25.35 | whitequark | mhm... CL? |
| 00:25.42 | mth | cas latency |
| 00:25.53 | whitequark | ah, yes |
| 00:26.20 | whitequark | well, I'm not sure how exactly it affects power consumption |
| 00:26.36 | Ayla | it does align better with the CPU, that's for sure |
| 00:26.41 | whitequark | with static circuits it's the count of cycles which matters, and (I hope) the CPU is pipelined anyway |
| 00:26.47 | mth | probably CL=2 is better for that; fewer clock pulses can only be good |
| 00:26.56 | mth | but I don't know if the difference is significant or not |
| 00:27.19 | Ayla | can't we reconfigure the RAM on demand? |
| 00:27.54 | whitequark | pretty perversive thing to do |
| 00:27.58 | mth | we can write to its config regs at any time afaik, but I don't know if it will have side effects |
| 00:28.29 | whitequark | I'd say that it will introduce general system instability through transition effects |
| 00:28.49 | whitequark | i.e. if the cpu will decide it's time to fill its cache exactly at the time another cycle would be inserted |
| 00:29.05 | whitequark | and we don't know much about 4740 internals |
| 00:29.12 | mth | Ayla: see it as a selling point for ubiboot ;) |
| 00:29.35 | Ayla | it wouldn't be hard to patch u-boot |
| 00:29.51 | whitequark | u-boot entirely consists of patches, no? :) |
| 00:30.01 | whitequark | of the vendor quality, mostly |
| 00:30.04 | mth | with jzboot you can simply set the CL value in the config file |
| 00:30.10 | Ayla | and currently ubiboot sets CL=2 too |
| 00:30.48 | mth | I don't know what u-boot consists of exactly, I got completely lost in its sources |
| 00:31.21 | whitequark | pure shit meters deep |
| 00:32.08 | whitequark | just like C is a pdp-11 assembler dreaming it's a programming language, u-boot is a yet another secondary bootloader which thinks it's an OS |
| 00:34.08 | whitequark | shut up and load the damned sectors! |
| 00:34.26 | whitequark | or pages |
| 00:34.34 | whitequark | or whatever unit your non-volatile storage has |
| 00:35.19 | whitequark | fucking insomnia. |
| 00:36.45 | Ayla | without insomnias, I wouldn't go very fast on my projects ;) |
| 00:37.14 | mth | not for me: I still sleep 7 hours, just weird hours |
| 00:37.19 | mth | so there is no time gained |
| 00:37.30 | mth | and quite a lot of time lost if I go to bed and don't fall asleep |
| 00:37.46 | whitequark | mth: yeah, I understand you well |
| 00:38.12 | whitequark | if I'm let to myself I'd go to bed at 8AM and wake up after 7-12 hours |
| 00:38.33 | whitequark | but unfortunately every other person in this world lives in exactly invert intervals |
| 00:38.53 | Ayla | how can you sleep 7 hours when you go to sleep at 5am? You don't go to work? :) |
| 00:39.14 | mth | if you work at home, you can pick any hours of the day you like |
| 00:39.23 | whitequark | you can have different kinds of work :) but yes, I don't work in plain old office |
| 00:39.29 | Ayla | ah, ok |
| 00:39.41 | whitequark | well, sometimes I do, when all else fails to give profit :) |
| 00:39.52 | whitequark | not quite often through |
| 00:39.54 | Ayla | do you enjoy working at home? |
| 00:40.15 | mth | yes and no |
| 00:40.34 | Ayla | I don't think I would like it, I'd prefer to meet some other people from time to time |
| 00:40.38 | mth | what I miss most is a "sparring partner" to discuss design ideas |
| 00:40.39 | whitequark | I generally live with my own projects, whatever they are |
| 00:40.46 | whitequark | through working at home means more procrastination |
| 00:40.54 | mth | not necessarily in the same room, but more than one person on a project |
| 00:41.00 | whitequark | mth: +1000 |
| 00:41.12 | whitequark | public irc channels often help, through |
| 00:41.39 | mth | I do meet other people almost every day, but they're not colleagues |
| 00:42.01 | whitequark | also, when I do work at the daytime, I often do that in a cafe |
| 00:42.10 | whitequark | provides a nice background noise |
| 00:42.12 | DocScrutinizer06 | duh, shutup and don't awake me :-P |
| 00:42.32 | DocScrutinizer06 | scrolls back to see how loing he slept |
| 00:42.34 | whitequark | DocScrutinizer06: when I can't sleep, no one can :D |
| 00:42.39 | Ayla | whitequark: hey, nice |
| 00:42.58 | DocScrutinizer06 | wow, 15min |
| 00:43.08 | mth | I use a different computer with no mail or IRC or anything else distracting running |
| 00:43.19 | whitequark | DocScrutinizer06: do you sleep with your n900? :) |
| 00:43.27 | mth | and put on some music that I've listened to before, so it doesn't draw much attention |
| 00:43.40 | DocScrutinizer06 | nah, we got separate beds |
| 00:43.59 | DocScrutinizer06 | this is lenovo t500 though |
| 00:44.07 | mth | I have done meetings in a cafe though |
| 00:44.07 | whitequark | mth: I just run irc in irssi. it doesn't capture my attention by its own then, same for email. And when I need to get distracted, I just switch desktops |
| 00:44.25 | whitequark | also, yes, music |
| 00:44.42 | mth | in theory my mail doesn't have to distract me, but if I see unread mail I want to check it, even though I know there is no reason to |
| 00:44.53 | mth | but without a mail counter I actually check it more often |
| 00:44.56 | whitequark | I had some of my most productive hours when I were sleep deprived and listening to the same track for 200th or so time |
| 00:45.04 | whitequark | er, I was |
| 00:45.39 | DocScrutinizer06 | killed mailcounter systray icon, whe the 5 digits didn't fit anymore |
| 00:46.04 | whitequark | e.g., yesterday was the first time I truly lead one of my major projects to 1.0.0 point |
| 00:46.21 | whitequark | at the last 8h I did more than in previous four days |
| 00:46.34 | mth | I excluded most mailinglists from the counter, it's more like an inbox counter now |
| 00:46.43 | DocScrutinizer06 | I googled my name yesterday, amazing experience |
| 00:47.21 | DocScrutinizer06 | esp since there are still others like me who do firebrigade, gardening... |
| 00:47.42 | DocScrutinizer06 | and one even does linux kernel (NIC et al) |
| 00:48.20 | DocScrutinizer06 | dunno how to exclude dirs from kmail counter |
| 00:48.43 | whitequark | never had mailcounter. too lazy to set up |
| 00:48.58 | whitequark | through I have kind of a mailcounter on my phone, when it's on wifi |
| 00:50.44 | mth | DocScrutinizer06: I'm using kmail as well, but I can't find the option anymore |
| 00:50.54 | mth | I think it used to be in the context menu for a mail folder |
| 00:51.03 | whitequark | DocScrutinizer06: http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?s=78b7634e2cefca7edf93bb87f77ef9c7&u=35572 is that your photo on the right? :) |
| 00:51.34 | mth | by the way, I've had major problems after switching to akonadi storage, so if you haven't done so yet, I'd recommend not doing that for a long time |
| 00:58.34 | mth | I once programmed a KDE2 panel applet to show new mail status (no count, just a flag) |
| 00:58.48 | mth | before that became standard functionality |
| 01:03.21 | Ayla | KDE 2? :) |
| 01:03.30 | Ayla | sounds like prehistoric |
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| 01:25.45 | mth | I started with KDE 1.1, I think |
| 01:35.57 | DocScrutinizer06 | whitequark: guess ;-) |
| 01:38.45 | DocScrutinizer06 | http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=35572 |
| 01:39.58 | DocScrutinizer06 | wonders what that "s=<randome large numer>" came from |
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| 01:43.36 | DocScrutinizer06 | yeah and kde3 was so good kde4 is still struggling to catch up |
| 01:44.04 | DocScrutinizer06 | wtf is akonadi? |
| 01:52.16 | mth | it's some kind of storage backend separate from the mail reader itself |
| 01:52.53 | mth | not a bad idea in itself, imo, but the implementation is very immature |
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| 03:40.38 | qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu: urjtag: minor fix, create usr/lib folder (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/935266e |
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| 17:00.02 | qi-bot | The build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120619-1445 |
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| 17:29.50 | whitequark | LOL |
| 17:30.05 | whitequark | SGS2 RIL has a SecSetIMEI call. |
| 17:30.15 | whitequark | does what it says on the box. |
| 17:31.01 | whitequark | DocScrutinizer06: shouldn't radios be certifier or something like that? ;) |
| 17:31.04 | whitequark | *certified |
| 18:17.39 | wpwrak | maybe it doesn't work ? :) |
| 18:30.04 | wpwrak | e.g., on an RSX-11 system (RSX-11 was relatively VMS-like a PDP-11 operating system) i was once shown not only SET PASSWORD, but also a command SHOW PASSWORD. not sure if it came like that from DEC or is someone had added it a s a joke. the output suggested the latter :) |
| 18:41.55 | larsc | were you able to run it without having to enter the password first? |
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| 18:51.29 | wpwrak | oh yes. it output several diagnostics. accessing passowrd database, then some problem, ... then it suggested to try to decode it for you, worked on it for a while, gave up, |
| 18:52.11 | wpwrak | then it showed a world map, "war games" like. wrote some more stuff. until you eventually got a final fatal error. |
| 19:08.42 | larsc | hehe :) |
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| 19:19.42 | viric | mh these loongson fpu things run super bad. |
| 19:20.08 | viric | ffmpeg fails, lame fails, libvorbis fails... |
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| 19:59.41 | whitequark | wpwrak: it has been verified to work correctly |
| 19:59.44 | whitequark | that's the worst part |
| 20:01.24 | wpwrak | perhaps they'll try to make it less obvious the next time :) |
| 20:18.42 | kristianpaul | cool cisco routers have altera, lattice fpga's and cpld |
| 20:18.58 | kristianpaul | their main chip seems to be self brandend.. |
| 20:20.05 | kristianpaul | wonder what hapennded with that network procesor core announced on open cores time ago.. |
| 20:29.18 | wpwrak | anyone knows a nice palindrome made of up 6-10 left-right symmetrical upper-case characters ? (AHIMOTUVWXY) |
| 20:30.04 | *** join/#qi-hardware erikkugel (~ekugel@216.183.91.254) |
| 20:34.25 | whitequark | wpwrak: grep thinks there are no such words in /usr/share/dict/american-english |
| 20:34.58 | whitequark | the best match was |
| 20:34.58 | whitequark | 1.9.3-p194 :012 > words.grep /([AHIMOTUVWXY])([AHIMOTUVWXY])([AHIMOTUVWXY])\3\2\1/i => ["Chattahoochee\n", "Chattahoochee's\n"] |
| 20:35.26 | wpwrak | naw, thre must be some. e.g., "aha", "tit", ... |
| 20:35.40 | whitequark | you said 6-10 |
| 20:35.54 | wpwrak | ah, you already took that into account |
| 20:36.06 | whitequark | yup |
| 20:38.34 | wpwrak | didn't find any in the usual palindrome lists either. one with six characters was listed ("MAXXAM") but that seems to be a name |
| 20:42.37 | wpwrak | well. it'll have to do for testing. thanks ! |
| 21:27.42 | *** part/#qi-hardware erikkugel (~ekugel@216.183.91.254) |
| 23:35.48 | *** join/#qi-hardware xwalk (~crosswalk@d47-69-35-236.try.wideopenwest.com) |