| 00:32.24 | *** join/#qi-hardware cladamw (~adamwang@host-65.78-43-115.dynamic.totalbb.net.tw) |
| 00:41.20 | *** join/#qi-hardware emeb (~ericb@ip72-223-81-94.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 00:52.25 | *** join/#qi-hardware cladamw (~adamwang@host-65.78-43-115.dynamic.totalbb.net.tw) |
| 01:14.43 | *** join/#qi-hardware wolfspraul (~wolfsprau@n119237201106.netvigator.com) |
| 01:14.48 | *** join/#qi-hardware qwebirc77136 (4766dbad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.102.219.173) |
| 01:15.23 | wolfspraul | good morning everybody |
| 01:15.27 | wolfspraul | cladamw: hi! :-) |
| 01:15.37 | wolfspraul | I am reading over the m1 schematics and I am so impressed about their quality! |
| 01:15.50 | rjeffries | This project is new to me. seems very open, but I am not expert on licenses etc.: http://www.ethernut.de/ |
| 01:15.54 | cladamw | good morning |
| 01:16.01 | wolfspraul | that is really fun to read through and think about, one can feel it's not the typical sloppy junk with all sorts of loose ends and "don't cares" |
| 01:16.14 | wolfspraul | thank you (and Werner) so much for your excellent work on this |
| 01:16.28 | cladamw | the quality derived from werner's suggestions. :) |
| 01:16.31 | wolfspraul | I have a few small questions here and there, clueless as I am about circuits |
| 01:16.59 | *** join/#qi-hardware xiangfu (~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com) |
| 01:17.59 | wpwrak | and adam's relentless work on applying them with great care :) |
| 01:19.22 | wpwrak | cladamw: i'm actually a bit puzzled how you avoided making a lot more mistakes :) i mean trivial things that you just overlook. after a while, i simply don't see my own mistakes anymore. but try as i might, i found almost nothing in your work. |
| 01:19.32 | wpwrak | wolfspraul: and thanks :) |
| 01:19.43 | rjeffries | wolfspraul when do you plan to have thge new itereatuion of MM available for customers to oreder? |
| 01:19.56 | qi-bot | [commit] Adam Wang: ir.fpd: added front edge silkscreen (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b88a133 |
| 01:20.39 | wolfspraul | ok I start a little |
| 01:20.56 | wolfspraul | on the pdf side, we already know we could be better in technical things like searchable text, links, page titles, what not |
| 01:21.12 | wolfspraul | some things I noticed on the power supply page |
| 01:21.27 | wolfspraul | U11 pin4 "Inhibit" ends in a little 'x' |
| 01:21.32 | wolfspraul | does that mean it's not connected/floating? |
| 01:21.50 | wolfspraul | I would think so but that may not be 100% clear |
| 01:21.59 | wpwrak | all those little "x" mean unconnected |
| 01:22.10 | wolfspraul | yeah |
| 01:22.10 | wolfspraul | ok |
| 01:22.18 | wolfspraul | most of my feedback is about 'understandability' |
| 01:22.25 | cladamw | wpwrak, hehe ... i eventually got used to your rules but still not convinced myself to good quality once I saw all explanations you mentioned. All reasonable ! |
| 01:22.40 | wpwrak | it's something you put there manually, so that kicad warn you if you forgot to assign some pins |
| 01:23.09 | wolfspraul | something I noticed in the 5V bottom-left part - D15 says "5.6Vdc" but C142 is just "100n" |
| 01:23.21 | wolfspraul | so the cap doesn't have a unit, but the voltage does |
| 01:23.58 | wpwrak | yes, we use the compact unit-or-multiplier-as-decimal-point notation for the most common values |
| 01:24.01 | wolfspraul | only occured to me because the two are right next to each other |
| 01:24.10 | wpwrak | we only switch to regular SI style for the more exotic parts |
| 01:24.10 | wolfspraul | but not for 5.6Vdc? :-) |
| 01:24.18 | wolfspraul | voltage is not exotic |
| 01:24.37 | wpwrak | R and C are a lot more common than zeners :) |
| 01:24.40 | wolfspraul | I agree to leave the Vdc there btw, but it makes me feel sad about the missins 'farad' :-) |
| 01:24.52 | wolfspraul | sure sure, just saying because I saw those two back to back |
| 01:24.53 | wpwrak | besides, zeners have multiple voltages. so the "dc" does convey information. |
| 01:24.56 | wolfspraul | it felt wrong |
| 01:25.13 | wolfspraul | next one - I noticed those blocks "POWERED" on nets |
| 01:25.15 | wpwrak | do you also feel bad about the missing Omega for resistors ? |
| 01:25.21 | wolfspraul | I'm wondering whether that is more helpful or more confusing |
| 01:25.26 | wolfspraul | no |
| 01:25.29 | wolfspraul | I understand the system |
| 01:25.43 | wolfspraul | but you have to admit seeing those "5.6Vdc" and "100n" next to each other feels unbalanced |
| 01:25.47 | wpwrak | so our instincts work in similar ways ;-) |
| 01:25.58 | wolfspraul | it feels like "one of them must be wrong" |
| 01:26.18 | wolfspraul | small detail |
| 01:26.21 | wolfspraul | just my impressions |
| 01:26.23 | wolfspraul | "POWERED" |
| 01:26.32 | wolfspraul | basically we want to clarify where the power lines are |
| 01:26.37 | wpwrak | my instinctive response to 100n is also that it's a little odd. but i have a hard time coming up with a rule that would require an F for caps but no Omega for resistors. |
| 01:26.42 | wolfspraul | a "strong and continuous" signal :-) |
| 01:27.04 | wpwrak | "POWERED" is to help kicad with error checking |
| 01:27.07 | wolfspraul | I find that "POWERED" confusing because I think there must be a wire/net "POWERED" somewhere |
| 01:27.08 | kristianpaul | hi wolfspraul :) |
| 01:27.10 | wolfspraul | is it? |
| 01:27.20 | wolfspraul | until I understand it's more like a comment/note |
| 01:27.27 | wpwrak | you can have pins that are defined as "power input". you must connect them to a "power output" |
| 01:27.40 | wolfspraul | and even then it's quite fuzzy since "powered" is still about electrons and physics as everything else |
| 01:27.48 | wpwrak | that can be a pin marked as such, or some other pin with the POWERED on top |
| 01:27.57 | wolfspraul | again, just describing my confusion |
| 01:28.01 | wolfspraul | but eventually I got it |
| 01:28.06 | wpwrak | it's a confusing concept :) |
| 01:28.08 | wolfspraul | all sorts of lines are marked "POWERED" :-) |
| 01:28.23 | wolfspraul | not sure what to think of this |
| 01:28.36 | wpwrak | kicad makes it even more confusing by just having a mysterious diamond-shaped symbol |
| 01:28.37 | wolfspraul | some devices can be powered using just the energy coming over signal wires... |
| 01:28.44 | wpwrak | at least we got rid of that one :) |
| 01:28.48 | wolfspraul | you could argue this forever |
| 01:29.00 | wolfspraul | power is flowing all over |
| 01:29.01 | wpwrak | think of it as a declaration |
| 01:29.09 | wolfspraul | yeah but very strange one |
| 01:29.12 | wpwrak | sort of a comment for kicad |
| 01:29.12 | wolfspraul | don't know what the point should be |
| 01:29.23 | wolfspraul | you could easily take this concept apart I think |
| 01:29.41 | wolfspraul | thinking about something as simple as a PWM circuit |
| 01:29.53 | wolfspraul | so first it's not a "powered" line, and then it is? after the lowpass filter? |
| 01:29.57 | wpwrak | i consider it borderline useful, too. but that's what you have to do to get kicad to be happy with your design |
| 01:30.02 | wolfspraul | sure sure |
| 01:30.05 | wolfspraul | just my feedback |
| 01:30.13 | wolfspraul | here's another one... |
| 01:30.25 | wolfspraul | we have a lot of ICs, on the power page for example "TPS76301" |
| 01:30.53 | wolfspraul | a regulator? so I am wondering whether ICs should have 2 more fields in the schematics, just text: 1) type 2) maker |
| 01:31.06 | wpwrak | if you run an ERC on, say, atben, you'll find more weirdness. nasty things i didn't work around. such as "output" pins that connect to ground. (for RF hardening) of course, kicad complains. but it doesn't provide a means for modeling such oddball concepts. |
| 01:31.47 | wolfspraul | I think chip brands are important, and so might be a quick categorization like "regulator" or "ldo" or whatever |
| 01:31.49 | wpwrak | i wouldn't be opposed to specifying the maker. |
| 01:31.56 | wolfspraul | great |
| 01:32.01 | wolfspraul | how about category/type ? |
| 01:32.11 | wolfspraul | speeds up reading I think |
| 01:32.42 | wpwrak | (maker) because boom may be mislead, too. it does matching on vendor part numbers. |
| 01:33.21 | wpwrak | dunno. it's usually pretty clear what the things do. just a question of recognizing design patterns. |
| 01:33.32 | wolfspraul | oh |
| 01:33.38 | wolfspraul | we continued the thread in 2 channels :-) |
| 01:33.41 | wolfspraul | sorry about that |
| 01:33.44 | wolfspraul | #milkymist then |
| 01:33.56 | wolfspraul | or here? |
| 01:33.58 | wolfspraul | I'm confused now |
| 01:34.12 | wolfspraul | so for ICs - add maker & type |
| 01:34.12 | wolfspraul | ? |
| 01:34.46 | wolfspraul | if possible, I would vote for keeping that "POWERED" box out altogether |
| 01:34.50 | wolfspraul | in the PDF |
| 01:35.09 | wpwrak | if you drop the POWERED, ERC gets messy |
| 01:35.18 | wolfspraul | I don't want to drop a kicad concept |
| 01:35.23 | wolfspraul | I only talk about the PDF I am reading |
| 01:35.34 | wolfspraul | and I describe the things that cause me a little mental bump |
| 01:35.46 | wolfspraul | without any subsequent aha moment |
| 01:35.49 | wolfspraul | more like "urgh" moment |
| 01:36.08 | wolfspraul | I have some more |
| 01:36.26 | wpwrak | i think it's just another concept you have to get used to. i think the "POWERED" is already much better than the diamond. e.g., you guessed right that it's just some sort of comment. you'd have had a much harder time figuring out what the diamond means. |
| 01:36.50 | wolfspraul | in a PWM you first have a pulse, then a DC current |
| 01:36.51 | wolfspraul | right? |
| 01:36.56 | wpwrak | (diamond) consider this: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/atben/pdf_atben.pdf |
| 01:36.57 | wolfspraul | where does "POWERED" start? |
| 01:37.10 | wpwrak | the critters are in the lower right corner |
| 01:37.20 | wolfspraul | just with my tiny little knowledge of electronics I already kinda swallow hard on this 'powered' thing |
| 01:37.40 | wpwrak | you're over-analyzing :-) |
| 01:37.50 | wolfspraul | good thing we don't document intricate regulator circuits |
| 01:37.57 | wolfspraul | not over-analyzing |
| 01:38.03 | wolfspraul | I run into this, it wastes my brain energy |
| 01:38.10 | wolfspraul | until I mentally dump it into the trash bin |
| 01:38.20 | wolfspraul | because I see those "5V" marks clearly |
| 01:38.28 | wolfspraul | or "1V8" |
| 01:38.32 | wolfspraul | so what could that be? |
| 01:38.34 | wolfspraul | a DC current? |
| 01:38.40 | wolfspraul | then what is "POWERED"? |
| 01:38.45 | wolfspraul | nothing, just confusion |
| 01:39.05 | wpwrak | perhaps we should have left the diamonds. you may have found them easier to overlook :) |
| 01:39.15 | wpwrak | the bikeshed problem :) |
| 01:39.16 | wolfspraul | and again, I do want to learn. in a PWM, where does 'powered' start? |
| 01:39.20 | wolfspraul | first it's a pulse, right? |
| 01:39.28 | wolfspraul | then it becomes a DC current |
| 01:39.31 | wolfspraul | true? |
| 01:39.37 | wolfspraul | or did I misunderstand this |
| 01:39.51 | wolfspraul | seems very artificial to me where the "POWERED" starts |
| 01:40.00 | wpwrak | it starts on the net to which you connect to a "power in" pin and which doesn't already connect to a "power out" pin |
| 01:40.19 | wolfspraul | and your example of shunting to ground or whatever in atrf as well |
| 01:40.29 | wolfspraul | this "powered" concept feels wrong to me |
| 01:40.33 | wolfspraul | but the "1V8" are clear |
| 01:40.58 | wpwrak | think of it as a directive to guide ERC |
| 01:41.08 | wolfspraul | it's in the mental trash bin now |
| 01:41.12 | wolfspraul | I don't think about it anymore :-) |
| 01:41.14 | wolfspraul | I can't see it |
| 01:41.19 | wolfspraul | it disappeared! :-) |
| 01:41.23 | wolfspraul | another one |
| 01:41.31 | wpwrak | its presence does not affect what your circuit does. only what complains you get from ERC. |
| 01:41.36 | wolfspraul | we have a nice little table with hw revision on one of the fpga sheets |
| 01:41.45 | wolfspraul | I understand [kicad/erc] |
| 01:41.46 | wpwrak | maybe we should call it "FNORD" then :) |
| 01:41.51 | wolfspraul | but I talk about readability/understandability of the pdf |
| 01:42.02 | wolfspraul | and I think I may have a point there |
| 01:42.07 | wolfspraul | coming from that angle... |
| 01:42.08 | wpwrak | it's a quirky kicad concept |
| 01:42.09 | *** join/#qi-hardware phirsch (~phirsch@xdsl-89-0-86-152.netcologne.de) |
| 01:42.13 | wolfspraul | so, that hw revision table |
| 01:42.17 | wolfspraul | I like those little tables |
| 01:42.28 | wolfspraul | on the power supply page, we have a bunch of voltages we are generating |
| 01:42.42 | wolfspraul | wouldn't it be nice to have a little table that lists who the different voltages are for? |
| 01:42.46 | wolfspraul | just high-level, but I think it could help |
| 01:43.14 | wolfspraul | in fact, on the top left side we have a 4V3 = 4.3V? who is that for? |
| 01:43.16 | wpwrak | sure. you commonly have power distribution diagrams. also things like current would be interesting. |
| 01:43.40 | wpwrak | doesn't even have to be part of the schematics |
| 01:43.57 | wolfspraul | yes, current too |
| 01:44.03 | wolfspraul | although we have a few little "4A" etc here and there |
| 01:44.25 | wolfspraul | my idea was just to start with a little table on the power supply page |
| 01:44.26 | wolfspraul | very simple |
| 01:44.31 | wolfspraul | who is the 4V3 for? |
| 01:44.46 | wpwrak | yes, that's the beads. since openmoko, i'm very picky about seeing them properly specified ;-) |
| 01:45.05 | wpwrak | i think it's for audio |
| 01:45.13 | wpwrak | yes, audio |
| 01:45.17 | wolfspraul | ah, ok |
| 01:45.25 | wolfspraul | well then, "little overview table" |
| 01:45.30 | wolfspraul | I have some more |
| 01:45.34 | wolfspraul | on the fpga decoupling page |
| 01:45.41 | wolfspraul | the larger caps are polarized, the smaller ones not? |
| 01:45.53 | wpwrak | this touches on a broader problem: it would be nice if global labels indicated there else the signal appears |
| 01:45.55 | wolfspraul | it there an obvious reason/explanation for that that any EE would know, or should we add a little comment? |
| 01:46.19 | wolfspraul | say for example C88 is polarized (4u7) but C98 (470n) is not |
| 01:46.29 | wolfspraul | maybe this is obvious for more knowledgeable folks |
| 01:46.30 | wpwrak | i'm not even sure if all of the caps drawn as polarized are really polarized. i'm almost certain they're not. |
| 01:46.36 | wolfspraul | well ok |
| 01:46.40 | wolfspraul | then I even may have a point |
| 01:46.55 | wolfspraul | some more |
| 01:47.09 | wolfspraul | on the U22C page (btw I don't know which page is bank 0/1/2/3) |
| 01:47.24 | wolfspraul | I really hate those DNP/0R resistors without explanation |
| 01:47.38 | wolfspraul | feels like some uncertainty/sloppiness/unfinishedness to me |
| 01:47.46 | wpwrak | that's bank 2 |
| 01:47.51 | wolfspraul | R158-R161 |
| 01:48.06 | wolfspraul | R158 is 0R DNP, R159 is 0R |
| 01:48.07 | wolfspraul | bah |
| 01:48.08 | wolfspraul | :-) |
| 01:48.19 | wpwrak | -> xilinx manual ;-) |
| 01:48.21 | wolfspraul | so it has to be like this? |
| 01:48.27 | wolfspraul | can R159 also be DNP? |
| 01:48.51 | wpwrak | M0/M1 set some sort of boot mode. but the details are probably complicated. |
| 01:48.53 | wolfspraul | can all those 4 be removed? |
| 01:49.12 | wolfspraul | ok but you admit that a block of 2*2 resistors, all 0R, two DNP two not is confusing! |
| 01:49.26 | wpwrak | it's really a "go to the current xilinx docs if you need an answer" type of question |
| 01:49.30 | wolfspraul | something like this I mentally want to rip out entirely and understand what is really going on |
| 01:49.33 | wpwrak | i mean, in the general sense |
| 01:49.56 | wolfspraul | or it's a leftover of unfinished/partial works |
| 01:50.05 | *** join/#qi-hardware Openfree` (~Openfreer@116.228.88.131) |
| 01:50.10 | wolfspraul | I have some more :-) |
| 01:50.16 | wolfspraul | hope this is interesting for anyone... |
| 01:50.31 | wolfspraul | similar issue on the nor flash page |
| 01:50.38 | wolfspraul | R60/61, R184 |
| 01:50.42 | wpwrak | a 0R / DNP pair is usually clear: we want to be able to generate H or L. there's one choice that's the normal condition for our board. but someone may what to change it. therefore, we add a footprint that allows doing that |
| 01:50.45 | wolfspraul | 60 and 61 are 10k dnp |
| 01:50.52 | wolfspraul | 184 is 4k7 |
| 01:50.52 | wpwrak | think USB_BOOT on the ben |
| 01:51.06 | wolfspraul | so those are all pull-up resistors? |
| 01:51.21 | wolfspraul | why is one 4k7 and two are 10k? |
| 01:51.24 | wpwrak | where are they ? |
| 01:51.30 | wolfspraul | and the 10k - is the pullup needed or not? |
| 01:51.41 | wolfspraul | those are the ones we fiddled around with forever in the reset battles :-) |
| 01:51.56 | wolfspraul | nor flash page |
| 01:52.08 | wolfspraul | but I see those 3, and it looks confusing/unfinished |
| 01:52.19 | wolfspraul | if r60/r61 are dnp now, can we remove them? |
| 01:52.23 | wolfspraul | no pullup needed? |
| 01:52.32 | wpwrak | on which page are they ? |
| 01:52.36 | wolfspraul | I may misunderstand it of course |
| 01:52.41 | wolfspraul | u9 nor flash |
| 01:53.13 | wpwrak | thanks ! ah yes, they're indeed a bit odd |
| 01:53.26 | *** join/#qi-hardware wej (~j@95.211.10.3) |
| 01:53.33 | wolfspraul | some more |
| 01:53.41 | wolfspraul | C127 on that page, value is 1u, but not polarized |
| 01:53.51 | wolfspraul | the bigger ones before were polarized, the smaller ones not |
| 01:53.55 | wolfspraul | what is the cutoff/reason? |
| 01:54.02 | wpwrak | i think polarization is quite arbitrary |
| 01:54.07 | wolfspraul | just saw it. C128 is 100n C127 is 1u |
| 01:54.22 | wolfspraul | well |
| 01:54.30 | wpwrak | as i said, several caps drawn as polarized probably have components that aren't |
| 01:54.41 | wolfspraul | should we remove the + then? |
| 01:54.55 | wolfspraul | in some use cases the difference can be quite dramatic though I would think |
| 01:55.06 | wpwrak | i don't know what rules adam applies. in the end, i does't bother me too much, since they're nearly equivalent |
| 01:55.21 | wolfspraul | ok |
| 01:55.27 | wolfspraul | next one first |
| 01:55.48 | wpwrak | (nearly equivalent) in the cases we have here. you're right that there are situations where things are less obvious. |
| 01:56.04 | wolfspraul | on the usb a/b page, some more wonderful DNP resistors |
| 01:56.23 | wpwrak | DNP can mean a number of things :) |
| 01:56.23 | wolfspraul | and even better, a note saying "full speed: mount R168" "low speed: mount R169" |
| 01:56.31 | wolfspraul | now that is confusing |
| 01:56.39 | wolfspraul | do we really mean a difference between full and low? |
| 01:56.46 | wolfspraul | or between host and slave? |
| 01:57.05 | wolfspraul | why is that comment/dnp resistors missing on the usb c/d and e/f pages? |
| 01:57.09 | wpwrak | design variants, things where we want to leave a plan b open, and then stuff we simply leave to the user to equip |
| 01:57.19 | wolfspraul | low and full? |
| 01:57.19 | wpwrak | there's a lot of the latter in audio |
| 01:57.23 | wolfspraul | with resistor values? |
| 01:57.29 | wolfspraul | what do we mount on R4 then? |
| 01:57.31 | wolfspraul | both dnp? |
| 01:57.32 | wolfspraul | I don't get it |
| 01:57.35 | wolfspraul | it's just confusing |
| 01:57.44 | wolfspraul | so with both dnp, neither low nor full with work? |
| 01:57.46 | wolfspraul | something is not clear there |
| 01:57.48 | kristianpaul | dammit, never close kicad even you already saved... for some reason things get messy... |
| 01:58.21 | kristianpaul | at least eeschema.. |
| 01:58.28 | wolfspraul | those are 1k5 (dnp) resistors on the D+ and D- lines? huh? |
| 01:58.28 | wpwrak | wolfspraul: it's for configuring the port for a full or low-speed device |
| 01:58.46 | wpwrak | totally unsupported by gateware and firmware, of course :) |
| 01:58.51 | wolfspraul | I don't get it |
| 01:58.52 | kristianpaul | close by powering off computer* |
| 01:59.07 | wolfspraul | DNP means the circuit is open there? |
| 01:59.13 | wolfspraul | it connects to 3V3! |
| 01:59.26 | wpwrak | the pull up/down configuration depends on whether you have a host, low-speed device, and full-speed device |
| 01:59.37 | wolfspraul | I don't get it, sorry |
| 01:59.39 | wpwrak | we have only host ports, hence only the pull-downs but no pull-ups |
| 01:59.52 | wpwrak | that's how USB works :) |
| 02:00.18 | wpwrak | what this circuit does is give you the choice to configure it for any of these modes, should you choose to do so |
| 02:00.18 | wolfspraul | maybe we should write "full speed client" and "low speed client"? |
| 02:00.49 | wolfspraul | right now one could very easily think this somehow affects full and low speed in host mode |
| 02:00.52 | wolfspraul | but I think it doesn't |
| 02:00.56 | wpwrak | we could add a comment that it's for configurint the port as a device, yes |
| 02:00.57 | wolfspraul | it's just confusing, to me |
| 02:01.02 | wolfspraul | device, sorry |
| 02:01.05 | wolfspraul | host and device |
| 02:01.09 | wpwrak | no, host mode is unaffected |
| 02:01.17 | wolfspraul | but that's not obvious |
| 02:01.20 | wpwrak | it's a common source of confusion :) |
| 02:01.27 | wpwrak | such is life in usb land :) |
| 02:01.34 | wolfspraul | so then let's write "FULL SPEED DEVICE" and "LOW SPEED DEVICE" instead |
| 02:01.43 | wpwrak | when i first saw it, i thought someone had misunderstood the USB spec |
| 02:01.49 | wolfspraul | nah come on, that one word can help clarify things. it's not impossible to explain... |
| 02:01.57 | wpwrak | only then did i realize these were meant as configuration alternatives |
| 02:02.20 | wolfspraul | the lack of clarifying "device" confused me |
| 02:02.29 | wpwrak | kristianpaul: if you do that, do at least a few sync first :) |
| 02:02.42 | wolfspraul | that's it! |
| 02:03.08 | wolfspraul | 1. 'powered' designator |
| 02:03.17 | wolfspraul | 2. add maker and type to ics |
| 02:03.25 | wolfspraul | 3. small table to clarify power users and current |
| 02:03.46 | wolfspraul | 4. clarify decoupling caps polarization |
| 02:03.52 | wpwrak | i wouldn't touch "powered". it's a cost of living with kicad |
| 02:04.08 | wolfspraul | 5. R158-R161 could be documented better/cleaned up |
| 02:04.18 | wpwrak | but you can try to make a patch that lets eeschema omit things like POWERED and submit it ;-) |
| 02:04.28 | wolfspraul | 6. same for R60/R61 |
| 02:05.00 | wolfspraul | 7. usb device config resistors could be documented better |
| 02:05.06 | wolfspraul | that's it |
| 02:05.10 | wpwrak | though it may be tricky to get that right. there are other pieces of meta-data you don't want to suppress. and you'd also have to follow the wires, maybe convert junctions, too. etc. it's a bit of work. |
| 02:05.17 | wolfspraul | I feel most strongly about #2 and #3 in this |
| 02:05.25 | wolfspraul | god no, I won't touch that [powered] |
| 02:05.40 | wolfspraul | then I think #4, and #5/#6 should also be possible to improve slightly |
| 02:05.41 | wpwrak | (((-:C |
| 02:05.51 | wolfspraul | #7 is just adding one word |
| 02:05.58 | wolfspraul | #1 is just ranting |
| 02:06.08 | wolfspraul | but overall the schematics are a joy to read! |
| 02:06.09 | *** join/#qi-hardware rejon (~rejon@jp.fabricatorz.com) |
| 02:06.22 | wolfspraul | cladamw: can you help with a power diagram/table? |
| 02:06.41 | wolfspraul | this concludes my feedback :-) |
| 02:07.23 | wpwrak | kewl. not too bad :) |
| 02:08.30 | wolfspraul | thanks |
| 02:08.39 | wolfspraul | if even I can read that stuff, it's already written for dummies |
| 02:08.48 | wpwrak | hehe :) |
| 02:08.53 | wolfspraul | the IC maker/type could help even more |
| 02:09.23 | wolfspraul | or, at least in the online PDF, some cool little links to wikipedia one can click on to find out about some background concepts |
| 02:09.46 | wolfspraul | but those are just bells and whistles, plus the PDF has some serious technical shortcomings like text search |
| 02:10.07 | wolfspraul | ability to follow wires by clicking on them |
| 02:10.08 | wolfspraul | etc. |
| 02:10.08 | wpwrak | some concepts are difficult to convey because they depend on a lot of background. just like that usb pull business. it's a very common source of confusion everywhere. but yes, we can make it a little bit more accessible on our side. |
| 02:10.28 | wpwrak | (pdf) all things that really need support from kicad itself |
| 02:10.30 | wolfspraul | as I said I feel most strongly about my #2 and #3 |
| 02:10.37 | wolfspraul | those are really valuble |
| 02:10.39 | wolfspraul | valuable |
| 02:10.41 | wolfspraul | the small cleanup is always nice too |
| 02:10.47 | wolfspraul | polarity, dnp resistors, etc |
| 02:10.59 | cladamw | wpwrak, wolfspraul do you mean like this ? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_Power_Tree |
| 02:11.41 | wpwrak | another thing that would be nice to clear up would be to have chip pin numbers on all the bypass caps :) we have that now for the RAM |
| 02:12.00 | wolfspraul | yes, although that also doesn't include the mystery 4V3 user :-) |
| 02:12.17 | wolfspraul | but yes, that's what I mean just integrated nicely as a little table or so in the "power supply" schematics page |
| 02:12.32 | wolfspraul | right now we have a set of regulators and circuits prepping this or that voltage |
| 02:12.34 | wpwrak | and it was a pretty good lesson - before these things weren't there, which led to a good amount of weirdness and miscommunication with layout. fortunately, harmless. this time. |
| 02:12.39 | wolfspraul | but little info on where this goes, current, overview |
| 02:13.10 | wolfspraul | definitely [chip pin numbers for bypass caps] |
| 02:14.03 | wpwrak | maybe the power tree needs updating. i see that it still has that ancient noisy codec |
| 02:14.23 | wolfspraul | maybe we can move it into the schematics? |
| 02:14.28 | wolfspraul | remove from wiki? |
| 02:14.55 | wpwrak | that should be possible, yes |
| 02:15.30 | cladamw | not to remove it now, i think that i can use KiCad editor to edit a new power tree. |
| 02:16.14 | cladamw | a power tree i can equip them with power net name, chip reference, circuit block and etc. |
| 02:17.02 | cladamw | regards to chip pin numbers with bypass caps, i'll also clean them up. |
| 02:17.11 | wpwrak | i would put the circuit block before the chip reference. less intimidating :) |
| 02:18.03 | cladamw | the chip pin name don't need to be accurately same as current m1rc3 if later m1r[4..n] producing. |
| 02:19.13 | cladamw | for examples two 100nF placed to pin 1 and pin 19, layout guy can place whatever 100nF to pin1 or pin19, |
| 02:20.03 | cladamw | we made unclear and unreadable in previous runs. |
| 02:20.26 | kristianpaul | wpwrak: no it not |
| 02:20.34 | kristianpaul | i still deleted same components |
| 02:20.35 | kristianpaul | save |
| 02:20.37 | kristianpaul | rsync |
| 02:20.39 | kristianpaul | close kicad |
| 02:20.42 | kristianpaul | no poweroff |
| 02:20.44 | kristianpaul | re-open |
| 02:20.46 | wpwrak | (pin 1 vs. 19) well, it shouldn't cause much work for the layout guys either way :) |
| 02:20.50 | kristianpaul | and got EESchema file text load error at line 788 |
| 02:20.52 | cladamw | (circuit block) wpwrak ? |
| 02:20.53 | kristianpaul | hmm |
| 02:21.42 | kristianpaul | and now there are lots of missing components on the screen... |
| 02:22.20 | wolfspraul | cladamw: yes, good! |
| 02:22.28 | wolfspraul | of course, first make a new and clean version in kicad before removing the wiki one |
| 02:22.42 | wolfspraul | now that we have kicad, we have a better place for this info than the wiki |
| 02:22.48 | wpwrak | cladamw: i mean "Audio LM4550BVH" looks nicer than "LM4550BVH Audio". |
| 02:23.00 | wolfspraul | before we needed the wiki to have any place outside of the dark and closed AD files :-) |
| 02:23.07 | wpwrak | kristianpaul: did you use a weird character in some name ? |
| 02:23.14 | cladamw | wpwrak, okay. :) |
| 02:23.59 | kristianpaul | wpwrak: let me see, but this wasnt happening before the component cutoff.. |
| 02:25.27 | kristianpaul | nope |
| 02:25.37 | kristianpaul | just can see 3 components right now afaik, |
| 02:25.45 | kristianpaul | the rest wires and nodes.. |
| 02:27.12 | wpwrak | can you paste line 788 and its context ? |
| 02:28.31 | kristianpaul | is empty.. |
| 02:28.42 | kristianpaul | aparently |
| 02:29.24 | wpwrak | and what is around it ? |
| 02:30.19 | kristianpaul | http://paste.debian.net/171665/ |
| 02:33.34 | kristianpaul | is very curious, after check the diff with tig, i noticed new text when i just removed compoments why?.. |
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| 02:35.27 | qi-bot | [commit] Adam Wang: tsop.fpd: added new TSOP module (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/dfcaa9d |
| 02:35.50 | kristianpaul | hum |
| 02:35.54 | kristianpaul | looks like a bug |
| 02:36.04 | kristianpaul | i just deleted one block now and the same error popup.. |
| 02:36.24 | wpwrak | kristianpaul: it gets better: pick a text comment. double-click to edit the text. delete it. then press OK. you'll get "Empty text !". and then kicad segfaults ;-) |
| 02:36.50 | wpwrak | (at least here) |
| 02:37.14 | kristianpaul | dont cheerme up that much ;) |
| 02:37.19 | wpwrak | perhaps you can recover it by putting some text in the empty line with a text editor |
| 02:37.33 | kristianpaul | i'll try found root cause |
| 02:37.42 | kristianpaul | by trial and error :) |
| 02:37.50 | cladamw | wpwrak, would you mind if I outline frame to your header or he10 module ? |
| 02:38.14 | cladamw | s/I/I add |
| 02:38.15 | qi-bot | cladamw meant: "wpwrak, would you mind if I add outline frame to your header or he10 module ?" |
| 02:38.39 | kristianpaul | or try another versio perhaps? this is 2011-05-25 |
| 02:38.57 | cladamw | wpwrak, are you qi-bot ? hehe ... |
| 02:40.34 | wpwrak | (mind) not at all. i've just been lazy :) |
| 02:42.06 | kristianpaul | putting some text in the empty line seems works, but how many empty lines left :) |
| 02:42.20 | kristianpaul | perhaps i need sed help |
| 02:43.05 | cladamw | wpwrak, also since a dedicated pin number 1, 2, or n, (n-1) there would be good. :) |
| 02:44.08 | wpwrak | you mean to mark #1 ? the default kicad lib uses quare pins for #1, round for the rest |
| 02:44.19 | kristianpaul | argh, EESchema file undefined object at line |
| 02:44.28 | kristianpaul | better replace not remove empty spaces.. |
| 02:44.29 | cladamw | wpwrak, i'd like a feature for Fped. i.e. place number (txt) in outline, can it be now ? |
| 02:44.46 | wpwrak | no, it can't do text |
| 02:45.10 | cladamw | Can KiCad do #n, #n-1 ? |
| 02:45.39 | wpwrak | lemme see ... |
| 02:46.34 | cladamw | hmm .... i was thought your pin# can be shown inside solder paste in Fped, but can't add number text in outline in the future ? |
| 02:46.58 | wpwrak | yeah, the module editor has text |
| 02:47.18 | cladamw | hmm ... alright. |
| 02:47.50 | wpwrak | i only show the pin number as non-physical text (i.e., something pcbnew shows but that doesn't go to the gerber) |
| 02:48.27 | wpwrak | the problem with supporting text that goes to the gerber would be matching kicad's fonts and such. tricky. |
| 02:48.48 | cladamw | if yours(Fped) can do, that would be super ole. |
| 02:48.50 | kristianpaul | ha |
| 02:49.05 | wpwrak | i'll put it on my to do list for 2013 :) |
| 02:49.07 | kristianpaul | i just save it as another name (no mod) and same error |
| 02:49.28 | cladamw | wpwrak, tks a lots ! not bad. :-) |
| 02:55.26 | kristianpaul | hmm |
| 02:59.43 | qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: reset reachable_pkg in the instantiation process and restore on inst_revert (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/59b90b3 |
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| 03:55.50 | qi-bot | [commit] Adam Wang: tsop.fpd: added 28 and 32 pins option (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/d0f16e9 |
| 03:59.18 | qi-bot | [commit] Adam Wang: added to-252 link (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b8f4df3 |
| 04:33.42 | qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/qfp-gen.fpd: QFP modules generated from IPC-7351 formulas (WIP) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/6a24272 |
| 04:33.43 | qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b977bc9 |
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| 04:59.41 | wolfspraul | ah, another small schematics comment |
| 05:00.15 | wolfspraul | this one about atben - there is a crystal X1 16MHz 8pF 40ppm ESR=80R |
| 05:01.02 | wolfspraul | maybe we could relax those specs a little so nobody gets stuck finding *exactly* such a crystal |
| 05:01.05 | wolfspraul | is that possible? |
| 05:01.22 | wolfspraul | for example the ESR - probably anything above or below 80 should be ok, no? |
| 05:01.37 | wolfspraul | or the ppm, if it's 30 or 20, what would be the problem? |
| 05:02.14 | wolfspraul | if that info is missing then someone may not know what to do with a part they found with say ESR 100... |
| 05:02.18 | wpwrak | oh, that's a maximum value. like a resistor tolerance of 5% doens't mean we'd reject a 1% resistor |
| 05:02.34 | wolfspraul | ok but we can be more helpful |
| 05:02.36 | wpwrak | the capacitance must match C10 and C11, though |
| 05:02.46 | wolfspraul | the ESR is a minimum or maximum? |
| 05:03.27 | wolfspraul | 40ppm is the precision, right? if so, would <= 40 ppm be more helpful? |
| 05:03.49 | wolfspraul | I just want to convey good positive vibes to the reader, less worries :-) |
| 05:04.10 | wpwrak | maximum. but i wonder where it comes from ... |
| 05:04.27 | wpwrak | i think 40ppm is pretty unambiguous :) |
| 05:04.48 | wolfspraul | the point is to make those specs more reader/user *friendly* |
| 05:05.16 | wolfspraul | a higher precision crystal will work as well, so why not write "<= 40 ppm"? |
| 05:05.41 | wolfspraul | if the schematics should be an exercise in "think yourself", then I can also have a lot of ideas how to achieve that, of course :-) |
| 05:05.55 | wpwrak | ah, the ESR is from the transceiver data sheet. so far so good. but they actually relaxed the spec. now it's <= 100 Ohm |
| 05:06.02 | wolfspraul | a large part of the industry seems to believe in that model anyway |
| 05:06.13 | wolfspraul | how good that they say <= :-) |
| 05:06.30 | wpwrak | (higher precision) because it's obvious ? :) that's a bit like foo++; /* increment foo */ |
| 05:06.45 | wolfspraul | so I think we should do that too, obvious or not, if it helps people more quickly navigate around the specs and focus their time on where it matters to them |
| 05:07.22 | wolfspraul | you could say "all crystal ppm are meant <=", but then it's better to just write <= there imho |
| 05:07.24 | wpwrak | naw, if you fill the schematics with trivial junk, people will not notice the places where you actually have something to say |
| 05:07.25 | wolfspraul | two characters |
| 05:07.36 | wolfspraul | ESR is <= 100R now? |
| 05:07.58 | wpwrak | will be, once i finish dinner :) |
| 05:09.03 | wolfspraul | I agree about not repeating obvious/redundant information |
| 05:09.15 | wolfspraul | but then you want to invite people and accelerate their first steps |
| 05:09.28 | wolfspraul | ESR= is a good example of potential time waste |
| 05:09.52 | wpwrak | yes, the ESR is bad |
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| 05:50.58 | qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/atben.sch, atusb/atrf.sch: correct and clarify ESR of X1 (reported by Wolfgang Spraul) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/42f1a78 |
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| 10:35.33 | Ayla | hi |
| 10:36.13 | Ayla | is there a way to tell GCC that a branch will probably be used more often than another one? |
| 10:50.25 | qi-bot | [commit] Adam Wang: to.fpd: added TO-252 package (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/9762038 |
| 10:50.26 | qi-bot | [commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/983ee35 |
| 10:54.25 | Ayla | __builtin_expect() |
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| 12:33.16 | wpwrak | Ayla: there is a builting for it. linux uses it a lot: http://kerneltrap.org/node/4705 |
| 12:33.38 | Ayla | yep, I knew it on linux |
| 12:33.53 | Ayla | but linux uses likely() / unlikely() |
| 12:34.15 | Ayla | (which are macros) |
| 12:35.09 | wpwrak | the article also describes what's underneath |
| 12:58.34 | mth | Ayla: this is what we use in openMSX: |
| 12:58.41 | mth | #if __GNUC__ > 2 |
| 12:58.42 | mth | #define likely(x) __builtin_expect((x),1) |
| 12:58.44 | mth | #define unlikely(x) __builtin_expect((x),0) |
| 12:58.45 | mth | #else |
| 12:58.47 | mth | #define likely(x) (x) |
| 12:58.48 | mth | #define unlikely(x) (x) |
| 12:58.50 | mth | #endif |
| 12:58.58 | Ayla | I used something like that |
| 12:59.04 | Ayla | but why __GNUC__ > 2? |
| 12:59.34 | mth | because GCC 2 doesn't have the feature and non-GCC compilers probably don't have it either (not with identical syntax, anyway) |
| 13:00.04 | mth | I hope no-one still uses GCC 2, but we've had this code for a long time |
| 13:00.30 | Ayla | ok |
| 13:01.08 | mth | I should check how it is expanded for clang |
| 13:01.23 | mth | because they do support many GCC extensions |
| 13:01.47 | Ayla | want my clang toolchain for mips? ;) |
| 13:02.08 | mth | I can check on OS X |
| 13:02.40 | mth | I do want clang for MIPS at some point, but let's not get distracted by that right now |
| 13:03.49 | Ayla | yes |
| 13:03.58 | Ayla | we have only 3 days left ;) |
| 13:05.30 | mth | we should make a list of issues and priorities |
| 13:05.49 | mth | maybe in the other channel would be more on-topic |
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| 23:43.46 | wolfspraul | uwe_mobile__ uwe_ - congrats on your sigrok project btw! that's shaping up really nicely |
| 23:44.13 | wolfspraul | I recently bought a FX2-based CWAV AX clone, now trying out sigrok and the free firmware |
| 23:44.36 | wolfspraul | maybe I also give the Hantek dso-2090 a shot, but I understand support for that is still kinda wip |
| 23:44.46 | wolfspraul | but it's a great project, good luck! |
| 23:44.52 | wolfspraul | sigrok I mean :-) |