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| 00:54.16 | wolfspraul | wpwrak: thanks again for taking the time to go through the pcb process yesterday! |
| 00:54.30 | wolfspraul | made me happy, I am thinking about buying things now and experimenting :-) |
| 00:55.02 | wpwrak | was a pleasure :) and you'll have fun, too ;-) |
| 00:55.12 | wolfspraul | I start easy with some of the smaller utentils, and then I go to an electronics market with xiangfu for some of the more elaborate things, especially also to talk with guys and see what they think and/or use |
| 00:55.27 | wolfspraul | I will drag xiangfu into this right away as well |
| 00:55.42 | wpwrak | elaborate things = scope, ultrasonic cleaner, ... ? |
| 00:55.56 | wpwrak | and let's not forget the CNC :) |
| 00:55.59 | wolfspraul | yah, basically. also chatting with the guys there |
| 00:57.18 | wolfspraul | laser printers cost as little as 80 USD now, amazing |
| 00:57.25 | wpwrak | wow |
| 00:57.30 | wolfspraul | yeah |
| 00:57.42 | wolfspraul | I was wondering whether one could directly print onto the pcb? |
| 00:58.05 | wpwrak | there have been attempts. with ink, though. |
| 00:58.09 | wolfspraul | how about other printers? |
| 00:58.29 | wolfspraul | ah ok, but you think the toner transfer is a good standard still, well known to work... |
| 00:58.43 | wpwrak | there are basically three approaches: |
| 00:58.47 | wolfspraul | but maybe a laser printer is so flat that it can pull a 0.8mm (or thinner) pcb right through it? :-) |
| 00:59.22 | wolfspraul | well I can imagine that there are potentially infinite ways how to get this printed |
| 00:59.46 | wpwrak | 1) lithography, with UV light and photo-coated PCBs. popular but a bit messy. never tried that. that's probably still what industry uses. |
| 01:00.10 | wpwrak | 2) toner transfer. less capable but reasonably straightforward. |
| 01:00.33 | wpwrak | 3) milling of the non-copper areas |
| 01:00.34 | wolfspraul | so you apply the etch resist (positive or negative), then uv light to remove parts, then etch? |
| 01:00.58 | wolfspraul | yeah I'll just go with the toner transfer first |
| 01:01.32 | wolfspraul | feels right and uses only cheap tools and simple chemicals and steps |
| 01:01.47 | wolfspraul | except for your stepper-motor laminator, which I hope to bypass |
| 01:02.15 | wpwrak | 3) should be cool, because you avoid the chemistry and it's just one step. drawbacks: the finer your traces, the easier your mills break. and you need very precise depth control. i experimented a bit with this but eventually gave up. never succeeded in making a board that actually looked right. |
| 01:02.42 | wolfspraul | nah I don't feel good about 3 |
| 01:03.30 | wolfspraul | lithography or lasering, chemicals - that sounds better |
| 01:04.02 | wpwrak | (photo process) you make a transparent mask, then expose with UV, then develop (chemically), then remove the developed/undeveloped part (not sure if you need special chemicals for that), then etch, then remove all the photoresist (chemically) |
| 01:04.26 | wpwrak | a heck of a pipeline |
| 01:04.46 | wolfspraul | maybe you can print the mask with a regular printer just like for those overhead projectors |
| 01:05.07 | wolfspraul | would need someone who still has a simple lab for analog photo development |
| 01:05.17 | wpwrak | and it also complicates the handling of the PCB material, since there's the photosensitive coating to worry about |
| 01:05.49 | wpwrak | you don't need the entire lab. just a few bits of it. |
| 01:06.00 | wpwrak | but still seems messy to me :) |
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| 03:13.43 | kristianpaul | 80usd !! |
| 03:13.45 | kristianpaul | wow |
| 03:15.28 | kristianpaul | toner transfer, indeed is nice, but is not one step solution, so more probably to make mistakes |
| 03:15.38 | kristianpaul | at least thats my experience |
| 03:15.54 | kristianpaul | tought laser printing tech had improve a lot, now i should try again :) |
| 03:17.36 | kristianpaul | 3) is messy, even more mechanical posibillities to get a failure... |
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| 03:27.56 | wolfspraul | you tried toner transfer before? |
| 03:28.07 | wolfspraul | but it seems you have no idea for a better process? |
| 03:29.50 | kristianpaul | yes i did when in the University |
| 03:30.19 | kristianpaul | to be honest i tried no more than 5 times, then decide outsource :) |
| 03:30.34 | kristianpaul | no idea for better indeed |
| 03:30.55 | kristianpaul | when i tried laser printed was new.. all was most ink so... |
| 03:31.00 | kristianpaul | resolution wasnt the best |
| 03:31.25 | kristianpaul | also i dint knew about the mix of chemicals werner pointed, thats is a cleaner solution |
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| 05:34.39 | wolfspraul | wpwrak: so maybe on my initial purchase, 100ml h2o2 and 100ml hcl is enough? |
| 05:35.35 | wolfspraul | or more? |
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| 05:50.26 | wpwrak | 100 ml of each should be sufficient for several boards. but you may not be able to buy in such small quantities. especially not the HCl. |
| 05:50.47 | wpwrak | there, they typical minimum quantity would be more like 0.5-1 l |
| 06:07.21 | wpwrak | 1 l in easy.com.ar :) peroxide i can get in bottles of 0.1 l - 0.5 l at a pharmacy |
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| 06:11.21 | wpwrak | and don't be shocked by the prices. all that stuff is cheap. |
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| 07:35.07 | wolfspraul | hah yes, went as expected. I got hcl and h202, but at unknown concentrations :-) |
| 07:35.50 | wolfspraul | when pressed, they would try to come up with the number they thought you would like to hear |
| 07:36.21 | wolfspraul | labeling of the bottles is chaotic, multiple labels, hand-written, refilled etc. etc. fun. |
| 07:37.20 | wolfspraul | I was upgraded from "wild blob of duct tape" to a proper rubber knob closure of the bottles only after complaining :-) |
| 07:37.44 | wolfspraul | so who knows, I will find out the concentration "in the field", china style |
| 07:38.10 | wolfspraul | the hcl is of some greenish color, and the seller told me I shouldn't spill it over my hands. that's a good sign, must be the right stuff... |
| 07:40.19 | wolfspraul | maybe there is a standardized and easy test which would let me guess the concentration of the hcl and h2o2? I think I will just try etching instead, see whether anything happens. |
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| 09:41.20 | pabs3 | green hcl? /me guesses it is contaminated, maybe with copper |
| 09:55.16 | whitequark | wolfspra1l: that's some really bad customer service |
| 09:56.20 | whitequark | when I bought chemicals on a market here in Moscow, behind the counter there were two nice girls _and_ they knew more about pcbs than I do now |
| 09:56.58 | whitequark | not to say that bottles etc. were of uncomparable quality. strange. I thought it should be good in China as it's an industrial center and whatnot, no? |
| 09:58.42 | whitequark | pabs3: or complex ions of Fe, they're green in some cases too |
| 09:59.14 | whitequark | copper is mostly blue as I've seen it... |
| 10:03.23 | mth | outdoor bronze turns green, isn't that oxidized copper? |
| 10:04.45 | mth | wikipedia says it's a carbonate instead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina#Acquired_patina |
| 10:05.28 | mth | and other non-oxide molecules |
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| 10:07.21 | whitequark | yeah, Copper(I) oxide is red: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(I)_oxide |
| 10:08.00 | whitequark | and Copper(II) oxide is, erm |
| 10:08.03 | whitequark | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_oxide |
| 10:08.13 | whitequark | it's kinda bluish |
| 10:08.54 | whitequark | as you can see, sulphate is blue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_sulphate |
| 10:09.21 | whitequark | so will be any other dissolved compound when copper ions are only coordinated by water molecules |
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| 10:30.58 | LunaVorax | Hello everyone! |
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| 11:05.49 | kristianpaul | hi |
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| 11:51.05 | qi-bot | [commit] Adam Wang: js28f256j3f105.lib: pin 43, pin name changed to VCCQ (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/bbab963 |
| 11:51.06 | qi-bot | [commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/4be16e3 |
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| 12:07.42 | wpwrak | wolfspraul: green is a bit unusual. should be more like colorless or perhaps a little yellowish. but maybe it's an additive. that sometimes happens. is it still transparent enough to see through a cm of it ? |
| 12:08.27 | wolfspraul | yes definitely |
| 12:08.35 | wolfspraul | concentration no idea |
| 12:08.48 | wolfspraul | and for the h2o2 I'm not even sure whether it is h2o2 :-) |
| 12:09.21 | wolfspraul | the pharmacy had a more trustworthy h2o2, but concentration was listed at 2.5%-3.5% only |
| 12:09.34 | wpwrak | you can try this: cut a bit off a PCB. make you mixture. WEAR GLOVES AND GOGGLES. set up the stuff outside, somewhere where spills don't harm. even if it would decide to boil. |
| 12:09.40 | wolfspraul | is there an easy way to reduce h2o2 to increase the concentration? |
| 12:09.56 | wpwrak | weark clothes you don't mind discarding. if you have some plastic poncho, raincoat, or such, wear that too. |
| 12:10.10 | wpwrak | then toss the copper inside and see what happens. |
| 12:10.35 | wpwrak | (reduce concentration) yes, add water :) |
| 12:11.00 | wolfspraul | need to increase the concentration |
| 12:11.09 | wpwrak | oh, increase |
| 12:11.15 | wpwrak | naw, not really |
| 12:11.23 | wolfspraul | the h2o2 at the pharmacy is only 2.5%-3.5% |
| 12:11.56 | wpwrak | that's probably good enough. lemme check what the one i have is ... |
| 12:13.42 | wolfspraul | yes I will just try, the main protection being that I will try with small amounts |
| 12:14.04 | wolfspraul | come on everybody here uses this stuff all over, I won't make myself too laughable :-) |
| 12:14.18 | wpwrak | hmm. bottle says "10 volumenes". 10 % ? let's find out what the google scienctists has to say about it ... |
| 12:15.12 | wpwrak | with the peroxide concentration known to be low, you're already on much safer ground. when you wrote that it's all weird, i thought, the peroxide was unknown too |
| 12:15.27 | wolfspraul | it is, I got the one in the market, not the pharmacy |
| 12:15.38 | wolfspraul | could be anything :-) |
| 12:15.54 | wolfspraul | I will get the one from the pharmacy too, good idea |
| 12:16.07 | wpwrak | (if you mix, say, 35% HCl with 30% H2Os, you get a VERY reaction-happy acid. etches a board clean in just a few seconds. alas, it also starts boiling quickly ...) |
| 12:16.25 | wpwrak | s/H2Os/H2O2 |
| 12:16.25 | qi-bot | wpwrak meant: "(if you mix, say, 35% HCl with 30% H2O2, you get a VERY reaction-happy acid. etches a board clean in just a few seconds. alas, it also starts boiling quickly ...)" |
| 12:16.33 | wpwrak | is still in pre-caffeine state |
| 12:16.35 | wolfspraul | sure but most likely the stuff I buy here errs on the side of water |
| 12:16.40 | wolfspraul | not on the other side |
| 12:16.58 | wolfspraul | I will try a little :-) |
| 12:17.09 | wolfspraul | there's no way I can get high-reliability chemicals anyway here |
| 12:17.16 | wpwrak | good :) so the chinese are not all _that_ keen on massively negative population growth ;-) |
| 12:18.53 | wpwrak | since we don't know for sure what the acid is, you should follow the usual precautions: give peroxide into the basin first, then add the acid. that way, the risk of splashes with high concentration is lower |
| 12:19.10 | wolfspraul | good |
| 12:19.33 | wpwrak | you should still wear gloves and glasses/goggles, though |
| 12:20.26 | wpwrak | (peroxide) "10 volumenes" = 3%. so yours is perfect. |
| 12:20.49 | wolfspraul | ah ok |
| 12:22.08 | wpwrak | so only the HCl is unknown. during etching, a bit of Cl gas should escape. it has a very characteristic smell. so that shuold allow you to tell tht there's indeed Cl in there |
| 12:22.45 | wpwrak | so, first experiment: make a bit of acid and toss a piece of copper-clad PCB inside. 1 cm^2 will do nicely |
| 12:23.21 | wpwrak | then watch what happens. move it around a bit with a stick made of plastic, wood, or glass |
| 12:23.51 | wolfspraul | sure, I remember from my visit :-) |
| 12:23.56 | wpwrak | if it's double-sided, you can also turn it over, move it for a while "bottom up", then flip, etc. |
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| 12:24.56 | wpwrak | you should see that both sides etch at different speeds. that's probably because of differences in the flow of the acid in the basin. i find that usually the bottom side etches faster. |
| 12:27.03 | wpwrak | the chemical reaction should produce 1) little gas bubbles on the copper. 2) bluish/greenish traces that come off the board. the blue are your copper ions. the green is them with chloride. |
| 12:28.10 | wpwrak | pity that your HCl already has that color. but you may still see some changes. eventually, the whole solution turns green-blueish, even if you start with "clean" HCl. |
| 12:29.29 | wpwrak | complete removal of all the copper should take between 10-20 minutes. |
| 12:30.07 | wpwrak | ah, maybe give your pcb a scrub with steel wool first. not sure how much the acid likes the copper oxide. might slow it down. |
| 12:33.10 | wpwrak | (steel wool and then clean with alcohol. wouldn't want to add iron to the reaction.) |
| 12:35.57 | wolfspraul | good good |
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| 13:28.37 | qi-bot | [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: MIPS: JZ4740: SLCD: Fixed sysfs tvout value parsing. (jz-3.3) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/f20d896 |
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| 21:31.27 | canoso | have anyone used gnublin embedded GNU/Linux? |
| 21:34.48 | GNUtoo-desktop | canoso, what's that? |
| 21:35.21 | canoso | it is a embedded linux board with an ARM microcontroller. |
| 21:35.35 | canoso | It is open hardware |
| 21:35.53 | canoso | http://www.gnublin.org |
| 21:45.18 | GNUtoo-desktop | is it 100% free software? |
| 21:46.00 | GNUtoo-desktop | seem so at first sight |
| 21:46.18 | GNUtoo-desktop | btw how much does it cost? |
| 21:46.52 | canoso | about 50 euros |
| 21:47.05 | GNUtoo-desktop | ok |
| 21:47.18 | lindi- | wrong language :( |
| 21:47.27 | GNUtoo-desktop | ? |
| 21:47.33 | lindi- | (german) |
| 21:47.39 | GNUtoo-desktop | ah ok |
| 21:48.19 | canoso | it has USB On the Go. Can I connect any usb device to it? |
| 21:48.42 | lindi- | canoso: I wouldn't call that a microcontroller |
| 21:49.07 | lindi- | since linux doesn't run on microcontrollers :) |
| 21:49.23 | GNUtoo-desktop | depends |
| 21:49.31 | GNUtoo-desktop | linux runs on blackfin for instance |
| 21:49.35 | GNUtoo-desktop | or stuff without mmu |
| 21:49.48 | GNUtoo-desktop | but in that case it's a SOC |
| 21:50.00 | lindi- | and it has 8 MB of RAM |
| 21:50.05 | GNUtoo-desktop | yes |
| 21:50.14 | GNUtoo-desktop | I think the minimum specs is 4M |
| 21:50.16 | canoso | lindi-: http://www.nxp.com/products/microcontrollers/arm9/lpc3100/#overview |
| 21:50.21 | canoso | lindi-: it is a microcontroller |
| 21:50.38 | canoso | lindi-: it has many peripherals integrated in the same chip |
| 21:50.50 | canoso | lindi-: and RAM in the chip |
| 21:51.02 | lindi- | openmoko has ram in the chip too |
| 21:51.09 | lindi- | (half of it) |
| 21:51.25 | lindi- | canoso: I guess we just have different terminology :) |
| 21:51.38 | GNUtoo-desktop | microcontroller and SOC are not that different |
| 21:51.58 | lindi- | for me microcontroller is something without MMU certainly and without cache too |
| 21:52.21 | GNUtoo-desktop | linux run on some stuff without MMU |
| 21:52.33 | lindi- | yeah but that's quite an exception |
| 21:52.35 | kristianpaul | milkymist soc dont have mmu btw :-) |
| 21:52.54 | GNUtoo-desktop | lindi-, an exception that is in mainline? |
| 21:54.21 | lindi- | GNUtoo-desktop: yeah :) |
| 23:41.21 | wolfspraul | canoso: [gnublin] nice link, thanks a lot! |
| 23:41.44 | wolfspraul | first time I see this, and please always feel free to post links to new or potentially new open hardware anything here |
| 23:41.47 | wolfspraul | we love to learn |
| 23:41.48 | wolfspraul | :-) |
| 23:42.30 | wolfspraul | I haven't checked about license, tools, etc. but anyway, nice simple project. |
| 23:46.35 | GNUtoo-desktop | yes indeed seem nice |
| 23:46.47 | wpwrak | lindi-: linux runs fine on microcontrollers. here's an example: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/03/30/linux-atmel-microcontrollers/1 |
| 23:48.42 | canoso | wolfspraul: ty |