| 00:30.39 | qi-bot | [commit] David Kühling: plplot: fix compilation on latest openwrt toolchain (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/2fb5cdb |
| 01:20.39 | wpwrak | kristianpaul: the ones i use the most are straight and angled tweezers |
| 01:20.46 | wpwrak | both with pointy ends |
| 01:21.18 | wpwrak | i use the straight to pick up components and the angled one to position them and to hold them down while soldering |
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| 04:02.54 | whitequark | kristianpaul: +1 on tweezers advice |
| 04:03.47 | whitequark | and get the ones with _really_ sharp ends |
| 04:04.11 | whitequark | and preferably a good, hard steel |
| 04:04.24 | whitequark | the combination of these two factors is best for tiny smd components. |
| 04:05.02 | whitequark | I use these http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=81 and these: http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=89 |
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| 11:00.46 | qi-bot | [commit] kyak: kbd: update upstream URL (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4b456f3 |
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| 12:09.14 | DocScrutinizer | wolfspraul: wpwrak: any news about mickey? |
| 12:09.31 | DocScrutinizer | [2012-03-25 14:06:43] [Whois] mickeyl ist seit 52 Tagen, 14 Stunden, 3 Minuten und 43 Sekunden untätig. |
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| 12:42.13 | wolfspraul | DocScrutinizer: I don't know, but since he had a kid maybe he just left active voluntary coding for now? |
| 12:42.34 | DocScrutinizer | maybe |
| 12:42.39 | wolfspraul | first priority is kid, second priority make money for family, and after that pretty much the only desire is sleep :-) |
| 12:42.45 | DocScrutinizer | a bit concerning though |
| 12:42.58 | DocScrutinizer | hope he's well |
| 12:43.11 | wolfspraul | we should definitely assume so |
| 12:43.19 | DocScrutinizer | good :-) |
| 12:43.21 | DocScrutinizer | thanks |
| 12:44.04 | wolfspraul | well, I am guessing, but since he had a kid I'd say that's most likely the reason |
| 12:44.23 | wolfspraul | he's really gone everywhere? no more irc/chatting, no more commits, no more conferences, no more nothing? |
| 12:44.44 | DocScrutinizer | above is whois info |
| 12:44.56 | DocScrutinizer | I dunno more than that |
| 12:45.11 | wolfspraul | I don't know exactly what this whois monitors. |
| 12:45.13 | DocScrutinizer | he has annoying habit to use ~25 different nicks |
| 12:45.42 | DocScrutinizer | none of which except mickeyl is logged in to #openmoko-cdevel |
| 12:46.02 | DocScrutinizer | whois monitors last post |
| 12:46.21 | DocScrutinizer | (or possibly other activity as well) |
| 12:46.56 | DocScrutinizer | I'll scan the chanlog |
| 12:47.00 | DocScrutinizer | mompls |
| 12:48.20 | DocScrutinizer | shiiit we got those unbearable nlsu logs on #om-cdevel, not the nice searchable povbot/mgedmin logs |
| 12:49.12 | DocScrutinizer | so sorry but I have no clue if some mickey* logged in last 50 days, or posted something |
| 12:49.28 | wolfspraul | he will reappear |
| 12:49.37 | DocScrutinizer | whois doesn't take wildcards, for obvious reasons |
| 12:51.10 | DocScrutinizer | well, there's an issue with om infra, one machine seems down. do you by any chance have an idea what's the supposed status of git.openmoko.org? |
| 12:51.22 | wolfspraul | no |
| 12:51.23 | wolfspraul | BUT |
| 12:51.38 | wolfspraul | the big picture is known for years, and I'm sure nothing changed |
| 12:51.46 | DocScrutinizer | :nod: |
| 12:51.54 | wolfspraul | it's unfair to repeat the same analysis over and over again for years |
| 12:51.58 | wolfspraul | what is the point? |
| 12:52.04 | DocScrutinizer | analysis? |
| 12:52.28 | wolfspraul | we have started Qi years ago among other things for the reason that it was very hard/impossible to *continue* with Om in a culturally compatible way |
| 12:52.44 | DocScrutinizer | hmm |
| 12:52.51 | DocScrutinizer | nfc |
| 12:52.56 | wolfspraul | the analysis that the infrastructure is very maintenance heavy and that there is really nobody willing to take on that work |
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| 12:53.17 | DocScrutinizer | I'm just trying to help when pabs3 complains about git down |
| 12:53.29 | wolfspraul | afaik harald keeps paying server bills, out of good will, and roh is still sometimes trying to maintain a little |
| 12:53.33 | DocScrutinizer | yep |
| 12:53.36 | wolfspraul | move to other servers |
| 12:53.52 | wolfspraul | maybe the entire *.openmoko.org coudl be just set to read-only? :-) |
| 12:54.06 | DocScrutinizer | I'd not mind |
| 12:54.16 | DocScrutinizer | actually a sane move |
| 12:55.34 | wolfspraul | I follow the wiki a little and try to help (at minimum effort) where I can |
| 12:55.39 | DocScrutinizer | anyway, I pinged Roh if he can either have a look what's down or/and answer on #openmoko-cdevel / http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-March/066676.html |
| 12:55.47 | wolfspraul | but I'd just set the whole thing to read-only, end the misery :-) |
| 12:56.02 | DocScrutinizer | wiki seems no problem at all |
| 12:56.16 | wolfspraul | except for infinite stream of spam |
| 12:56.24 | DocScrutinizer | I'd just like to mirror it somewhere |
| 12:56.29 | wolfspraul | which amazingly some volunteers keep deleting more or less manually all the time, for years :-) |
| 12:56.41 | wolfspraul | let's see who wears out first - the bots or the volunteers :-) |
| 12:56.43 | DocScrutinizer | o.O |
| 12:57.05 | wolfspraul | the real solution would be either to upgrade the wiki software and reduce the amount of spam, or to set the whole thing read-only |
| 12:57.09 | wolfspraul | neither of which will happen imho |
| 12:58.12 | DocScrutinizer | I haven't noticed any spam on wiki recently, which actually makes me wonder what's going on with my notifications about changes to monitored pages |
| 12:58.21 | wolfspraul | no spam? wow. wait, checking |
| 12:59.29 | DocScrutinizer | the meaningful edits to wiki as well seem rare as 29th of Feb |
| 13:00.13 | wolfspraul | cool, yes. spam is better! :-) |
| 13:00.14 | DocScrutinizer | so either set R/O or increase barriers to edit to a rather invincible level |
| 13:00.27 | wolfspraul | yes, maybe someone did something. cool. |
| 13:01.09 | DocScrutinizer | anyway this FIC rant in that mail is quite annoying |
| 13:01.32 | wolfspraul | sure, unfair |
| 13:01.43 | wolfspraul | but nothing will happen, so what :-) |
| 13:02.43 | DocScrutinizer | yeah |
| 13:03.01 | DocScrutinizer | whole issue is one of the servers is down, nothing unusual |
| 13:03.39 | DocScrutinizer | I'm not sure if git/svn is even meant to be in service, but for sure munin being down is odd |
| 13:04.35 | DocScrutinizer | let's see what Roh tells us when he's back from whatever he does at Sunday noon ;-) |
| 13:37.49 | kyak | mirko: if you have some time, please have a look here: https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/10834 (we've discussed this already some time ago). It seems that it breaks qt4 compilation and a bunch of qt4 related packages from qi-packages.. |
| 13:46.15 | DocScrutinizer | btw a general advice regarding IRC and this chan: I suggest to set +F to some real person, since otherwise you might lose foundership of this channel completely whenever bot acts up. Also a bot is no real person to hold GC of #qi-hardware |
| 13:46.50 | DocScrutinizer | disclaimer: AIUI |
| 13:48.40 | *** join/#qi-hardware shevek (~shevek@a83-163-111-92.adsl.xs4all.nl) |
| 13:49.50 | DocScrutinizer | e.g bot's account might get klined when bot misbehaves, and you hardly convince freenode stuff to unkline it again, just to administer this chan. |
| 13:50.32 | DocScrutinizer | also cloaks etc are hardly requested at freenode staff by a bot |
| 14:03.56 | kristianpaul | ergh digikry non-stock for a SMD0402 470F capacitor :-| |
| 14:11.23 | DocScrutinizer | 0403 470F, I bet they don't have those on stock ;--) |
| 14:11.30 | DocScrutinizer | 0402 even |
| 14:12.14 | DocScrutinizer | idly wonders if such critter could be built, maybe for 30mV max voltage |
| 14:17.29 | kristianpaul | What replacement you suguest? |
| 14:18.16 | kristianpaul | argh |
| 14:23.38 | kristianpaul | -_- |
| 14:23.50 | kristianpaul | nv :) |
| 14:33.43 | kristianpaul | WHAT |
| 14:33.59 | kristianpaul | Shipping 1 lb. $39.00 - $46.00 !! |
| 14:33.59 | DocScrutinizer | haha, my N900 and my laptop have correct time, while two DCF77 radio controlled alarm clocks and the friggin HomeMatic CCU that is supposed to a ntp server still have winter time :-/ |
| 14:34.07 | kristianpaul | sigh |
| 14:34.46 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, prohibitively expensive for small birdseed |
| 14:35.05 | kristianpaul | :'( |
| 14:35.13 | kristianpaul | now what.. |
| 14:35.34 | DocScrutinizer | ask fleabay |
| 14:36.42 | DocScrutinizer | it's not exactly like digi-K has a monopoly on 0402 - but almost |
| 14:41.02 | kristianpaul | :-| |
| 14:43.34 | kristianpaul | ebay have worst search eng for smd and passive stuff.. |
| 14:45.49 | kristianpaul | interesting most common intem is a kit |
| 14:45.54 | kristianpaul | item* |
| 14:53.41 | kristianpaul | will ended buying at local ebay.. |
| 15:02.03 | kristianpaul | 0402, indeed ! |
| 15:08.30 | kristianpaul | found an interesting smd sample book |
| 15:08.50 | kristianpaul | smd 0603, as 0402 seems really rare.. |
| 15:12.06 | kristianpaul | or double the price.. |
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| 16:16.59 | shevek | Does anyone know the memory map of uboot while it is running? Which parts are free (that is, can be used to upload code) when running in usb-boot mode? I need 2kB under 80004000 (stage1) and a lot anywhere (stage2). I'd like to use the same approach for software and hardware usbboot, but when I upload stage1 to 80002000, I think I'm overwriting something, because it doesn't work in software usbboot. |
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| 16:22.40 | mth | shevek: I don't know the answer, but if you're interested in a boot loader for the JZ with easier to read code, Ayla has made one: https://github.com/Ayla-/UBIBoot |
| 16:23.17 | mth | unlike u-boot, it doesn't try to be a mini OS, instead it just tries to get the kernel running as soon as possible |
| 16:25.35 | shevek | mth: Thanks, but the only reason I want it to work with uboot is that that's what other people have on their Ben, and telling them to install a different boot loader isn't really an option. ;-) |
| 16:25.56 | mth | ah ok |
| 16:41.28 | shevek | The stage2 isn't really a problem, because a random address is usually fine. But stage1 in hardware boot mode must be lower than 80004000 and it seems all that space is taken up by uboot. |
| 16:42.41 | shevek | Or there's some other difference that makes it not work. Possibly it doesn't like the sdram to be reinitialized, because that obviously already happened. |
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| 17:10.57 | shevek | Hurray for source diving. Uboot thinks it a good idea to write into the code it is about the start (assuming it is its own stage1) for passing a signal ("don't initialize memory"). Why oh why do they do that this way? This is pretty much guaranteed to break any custom stage1... |
| 17:12.56 | Ayla | they like it dirty |
| 17:13.07 | shevek | Appearantly. :-( |
| 17:13.21 | shevek | Well, now I know it I can easily work around it. |
| 17:14.16 | DocScrutinizer | well, now we know the reason why uBoot on openmoko been named "dirty moko" |
| 17:14.38 | DocScrutinizer | ;) |
| 17:15.01 | wpwrak | u-boot is all about doing things the wrong way ;-) |
| 17:15.56 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer: that "dirty", on the other hand, probably refers to the build having local changes with respect to the repository |
| 17:16.12 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer: maybe there's a patch in the build process or such |
| 17:16.14 | shevek | And for Godwin's sake: the nazis were using u-boots, too! :-P |
| 17:17.11 | DocScrutinizer | well, they also ate bread |
| 17:17.28 | DocScrutinizer | does this mean anything to us now? |
| 17:17.29 | qi-bot | [commit] kyak: qt4: change keyboard device in QWS_KEYBOARD (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/2a5afd9 |
| 17:17.35 | wpwrak | and there are rumors that they even practiced personal hygiene |
| 17:17.59 | shevek | DocScrutinizer: No it's pretty much irrelevant, but that's the point of Godwin's law. ;-) |
| 17:18.33 | DocScrutinizer | goswin is unknown here |
| 17:18.43 | DocScrutinizer | prolly for a reason |
| 17:19.40 | shevek | "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." |
| 17:20.35 | DocScrutinizer | we got enough fun with our contemporary skinhead assholes and other scum. Not that we had any more than other countries, au contraire. But we're a bit more sensitive to it |
| 17:21.00 | shevek | Which country is that? Germany? |
| 17:21.05 | DocScrutinizer | sure |
| 17:21.49 | DocScrutinizer | so godwin's law #1 doesn't apply here |
| 17:23.33 | shevek | Of course it does. As the discussion grows longer, there is more infomation in it. The probability of some information in there approaches 1 eventually. It may just approach it more slowly. ;-) |
| 17:25.02 | DocScrutinizer | the probability to find a 500g goldbar in your slice of bread you're eating also raches one the more slices you eat |
| 17:25.20 | shevek | Exactly. :-) |
| 17:26.31 | DocScrutinizer | practically however it's highly unlikely to be able to cut a normal bread so a slice would contain a 500g bar of gold and you'd still try to eat it |
| 17:27.56 | shevek | Yes, and there's the problem of it being so slow that you most likely don't live long enough to finally experience it. |
| 17:27.56 | wpwrak | at least if you do, you'll realize your mistake immediately. that's a significant difference from the godwin scenario :) |
| 17:28.08 | wpwrak | (if you do) bit into gold, i mean |
| 17:28.10 | DocScrutinizer | just alike it's unlikely two normal germans use Nazi analogies in a discussion, no matter how long that discussuin will take |
| 17:28.42 | wpwrak | nonsense ;-) |
| 17:29.00 | wpwrak | ever been to any online discussion fora ? :) |
| 17:29.15 | shevek | wpwrak: He was talking about *normal* Germans. ;-) |
| 17:29.24 | DocScrutinizer | exactly |
| 17:29.33 | wpwrak | hmm :) |
| 17:32.57 | DocScrutinizer | let's agree on the fact we here in germany are mostly thoroughly fed up with that idiot and all stuff around it, probably even more than the Jews, and it's not a very popular topic here unless some skinheads annoy your normal life and you have to beat them up. Thus Godwin isn't known here |
| 17:33.27 | shevek | Sounds reasonable. |
| 17:42.57 | DocScrutinizer | due to mere statistical thermodynamics your water in the pot on the fire might freeze, while heating up the surrunding air to several 1000 °C |
| 17:44.21 | shevek | Not all the water, conservation of energy doesn't allow that. But all the energy could be transferred into a single molecule, while the rest is frozen. ;-) |
| 17:44.28 | DocScrutinizer | "oh well, the explosion that blew out my windows was casued by the water on my oven freezing in the pot" ;-P |
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| 21:03.13 | qi-bot | The build has FAILED: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/building/Nanonote/Ben/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120324-1751 |
| 21:10.46 | whitequark | DocScrutinizer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law |
| 21:10.51 | whitequark | oh |
| 21:10.57 | whitequark | wrong page of log. |
| 21:11.14 | whitequark | the --MORE-- in irssi isn't really noticeable. |
| 21:11.55 | DocScrutinizer | thanks anyway :-D |
| 21:13.38 | whitequark | ah. about modules |
| 21:13.38 | whitequark | well |
| 21:13.56 | whitequark | some businesses don't really advertise that they work on workdays from 09:00 to 18:too |
| 21:14.00 | whitequark | *18:00 |
| 21:14.05 | whitequark | but only to 17:30 on Fridays |
| 21:14.31 | whitequark | so that was a bit surprising to me to find out that they already closed |
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| 21:47.43 | dvdk | kyak: hi |
| 21:48.00 | dvdk | kyak: you've been hacking on nanonote's qt4 lately? |
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| 22:25.08 | DocScrutinizer | whitequark: ooh. Sorry you had some action in vain with the modules. Anyway, tell me your account as soon as possible, and the amount |
| 22:25.25 | DocScrutinizer | whitequark: and thanks for making this happen at all |
| 22:36.51 | whitequark | DocScrutinizer: well, this generally happens with me all the time |
| 22:37.07 | whitequark | so I |
| 22:37.13 | whitequark | *I'm used to it :) |
| 22:38.59 | wpwrak | the natural consequence of procrastination ;-) |
| 22:40.23 | whitequark | wpwrak: more of my unusual biological cycle |
| 22:40.46 | whitequark | it's best described as a sliding window across the usual 24h cycle |
| 22:41.11 | whitequark | I'm already used to calculating whether I'll be awake at the $daynumber |
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| 22:43.41 | wpwrak | ah, you sleep with a granularity of whole days. interesting. |
| 22:43.57 | wpwrak | opening hours shouldn't be a major problem then, though |
| 22:44.47 | whitequark | wpwrak: maybe I haven't defined that as correct as I tried to |
| 22:44.48 | whitequark | hm |
| 22:45.01 | whitequark | like this: http://xkcd.com/320/ |
| 22:45.10 | whitequark | (but the actual intervals are somewhat different.) |
| 22:51.13 | wpwrak | hope you read the small print :) |
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| 23:02.26 | whitequark | pfft |
| 23:02.29 | whitequark | I'm already mad |
| 23:10.51 | wpwrak | i don't think it works that way :) |
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| 23:29.14 | wolfspraul | DocScrutinizer: thanks for pointing out the +F issue |
| 23:29.24 | DocScrutinizer | np |
| 23:29.31 | wolfspraul | you are by far more knowledgeable about irc than I am, so I just don't know |
| 23:30.01 | wolfspraul | the last drama was how 'we', the Qi community, could get some degree of control over the channel at all |
| 23:30.17 | wolfspraul | after a lot of this and that, I thought sort of the server/qi-bot is in control now and that means anyone we know |
| 23:30.22 | DocScrutinizer | actually atm only the bot can set +F on any other existing or new member of access list |
| 23:31.25 | wolfspraul | but don't ask me about details, they are probably all wrong so your help is the big light in the darkness :-) |
| 23:32.19 | DocScrutinizer | I'd guess you could sign a GC(?) paper with freenode, from your qi-hardware mail account, and that would imply you get +F on access list |
| 23:33.12 | DocScrutinizer | single-# channels are "owned" by GC, who also owns the brand or whatever is in the chan name |
| 23:33.47 | DocScrutinizer | assuming you "are" qi-hardware, you can fill out that form of freenode |
| 23:34.10 | DocScrutinizer | and gain GC status for #qi-hardware* namespace |
| 23:34.50 | wolfspraul | why? |
| 23:35.31 | DocScrutinizer | or you simply make the bot say /msg chanserv flags #qi-hardware wolfspraul +F |
| 23:37.25 | wolfspraul | I understand the theoretical need if the bot gets kicked etc, but feel a little lazy about this right now |
| 23:38.53 | wpwrak | and there i was, thinking nothing could hold you back when you heard of an opportunity to enjoy some bureaucracy ;-) |
| 23:39.04 | wolfspraul | yeah right |
| 23:41.14 | DocScrutinizer | haha |
| 23:41.58 | Ayla | hi |
| 23:42.53 | Ayla | Is it legal for me to read a file from a FAT32 partition, by using its short name? |
| 23:43.35 | whitequark | "legal" as in "will you get sued by M$"? |
| 23:43.38 | Ayla | I know there is a patent on that |
| 23:43.52 | whitequark | the patent is on long filenames |
| 23:44.13 | whitequark | and its validity AFAIK was not proven |
| 23:44.21 | whitequark | and if you're not in US you shouldn't care at all |
| 23:44.28 | whitequark | again, AFAIK |
| 23:45.44 | wpwrak | the 8+3 names are safe, yes. not sure if the VFAT patent hasn't already expired. |
| 23:46.20 | Ayla | great |
| 23:46.42 | whitequark | http://lwn.net/Articles/321475/ |
| 23:47.56 | Ayla | that's great news, I thought it was the 8.3 filenames that were patented |
| 23:47.58 | DocScrutinizer | wolfspraul: basically the GC thing should be painless |
| 23:48.21 | DocScrutinizer | but if you have some control over the bot, it's no problem |
| 23:49.13 | DocScrutinizer | the bot is already +o, and chanserv commands wouldn't even need that. It's actually just a matter of making bot say the right oneline post |
| 23:49.16 | Ayla | goes back to the code |
| 23:49.23 | DocScrutinizer | like quoted above |
| 23:49.29 | Ayla | oh, and thanks |
| 23:50.09 | mth | even if 8.3 was patented once, it's so old that it would be expired by now |
| 23:50.27 | DocScrutinizer | wolfspraul: http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml |
| 23:50.54 | wpwrak | 8+3 comes from CP/M. and i think there, they stole it from the PDP-8 or such ;-) |
| 23:51.13 | wolfspraul | ok, I understand [+F] still just too lazy now to improve this |
| 23:51.35 | mth | MSX uses 8+3 and MSX-DOS is CP/M compatible |
| 23:51.36 | wolfspraul | plus it seems sort of under control right now, with the bot having the rights, that is lots of people with server access |
| 23:52.16 | Ayla | mth: ah, great |
| 23:52.41 | Ayla | I just need to identify the vmlinuz.bin file on the FAT table, and load it, and it should be all good |
| 23:53.23 | mth | root dir length has a fixed maximum, unlike subdirs |
| 23:53.37 | mth | I think somewhere in the boot sector it says how many sectors |
| 23:53.45 | mth | and also the start sector |
| 23:54.14 | Ayla | yes, I got all of that |
| 23:54.19 | wpwrak | mth: i was more thinking of the PDP-8 or -10. 1970es, not 80es. shortly after they realized that where was need for more than just one computer on the east coast and one on the west coast ;-) |
| 23:55.12 | mth | I never touched a computer before about 1984 |
| 23:55.26 | mth | I was a kid at that time though |
| 23:56.05 | Ayla | mth: by the "boot sector" you mean the MBR, or the FAT32 boostrap code? |
| 23:56.07 | mth | did the PDP-8 use FAT as well, or only 8+3? |
| 23:56.21 | wpwrak | heh, seems that i was ahead of you a few years ;-) but that PDP stuff is also mostly legends and lore |
| 23:56.24 | mth | Ayla: the boot sector is sector 0 inside the FAT partition |
| 23:56.49 | Ayla | then yes, there's the info |
| 23:57.07 | Ayla | but it's not really useful, is it? |
| 23:57.27 | wpwrak | i did see a few real-life PDP-11, though. some made even halfway decent office machines. space-wise, i mean. the bigger ones were a bit too noisy, unless you were deaf already |
| 23:58.17 | wpwrak | (and of course too large. a full 19" rack for a tenth of the capabilities of a modern wristwatch) |
| 23:59.08 | wpwrak | Ayla: it tells you how the file system is organized |
| 23:59.38 | wpwrak | Ayla: you CAN also go by "standard structures", but that's rather dangerous |
| 23:59.49 | mth | wpwrak: about legends: at the local computer club they had a Burroughs machine that they managed to keep running while moving it, by quickly plugging it into each next socket they reached... apparently it had huge capacitors inside |
| 23:59.50 | Ayla | wpwrak: I don't care about that, I just need to load one single file :) |