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| 01:49.55 | Hardy | muhmuh |
| 01:50.01 | Hardy | anybody here? |
| 02:00.06 | Hardy | dont seem so :( |
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| 06:45.29 | kaja | Hello wikireader users! :D |
| 06:46.00 | kaja | I would like to get esperanto and swedish wikipedias on my wikireader |
| 06:46.15 | kaja | i downloaded the autowiki.sh script and read it but i'm a bit confused about using it |
| 06:46.46 | kaja | what are "the wikireader tools" ? |
| 06:46.52 | kaja | is that the stuff on my microsd card? |
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| 06:50.59 | kaja | hello naquan |
| 06:51.03 | kaja | do you have a wikireader? :D |
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| 06:54.15 | naquan | kaja: no, i don't have it. |
| 06:56.10 | kaja | For shame! |
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| 07:02.31 | Kame2 | kaja: see topic. #openmoko-wikireader is the right chan for you |
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| 07:03.55 | kaja | Kame2: i understand, but hardly anyone is in there |
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| 07:07.12 | Kame2 | then try at a different time maybe. don't know but this chan is for users of the mobile phone. i think most readers don't know more about the reader than you can find on openmoko.com |
| 07:07.33 | Kame2 | readers -> users |
| 07:08.09 | balrog-k1n | who are mostly readers |
| 07:08.58 | Kame2 | right ^^ |
| 07:12.27 | kaja | ahh it's annoying |
| 07:12.37 | kaja | wikireader could be a great toy to play around with |
| 07:12.43 | kaja | but it's so hard to find decent documentation |
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| 08:01.40 | kaja | <PROTECTED> |
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| 09:50.27 | rss | hi, I need evince on shr to read a djvu file |
| 09:50.46 | rss | in angstrom repository, which ipk file should I pick? |
| 09:52.31 | Heinervdm | rss: you need a armv4t ipk |
| 09:52.49 | rss | thanks |
| 09:53.35 | PaulFertser | rss: and you better ask SHR devs to add it to the feeds rather than picking packages from angstrom repo |
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| 09:55.08 | PaulFertser | rss: (meant as a friendly suggestion) |
| 09:56.28 | JaMa|Wrk | already building it on shr buildhost :) |
| 09:56.34 | JaMa|Wrk | how friendly it is! ;) |
| 09:57.24 | pabs3 | hmm, can the FR charge or be powered from USB when in suspend mode? |
| 09:58.39 | rss | PaulFertser: ok |
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| 10:10.34 | zlfita | @ pabs3: it will probably charge @100mA |
| 10:22.25 | PaulFertser | PaulFertser: FR will charge with whatever current it charged with prior to suspend. |
| 10:22.40 | PaulFertser | zlfita: ^^^ |
| 10:23.18 | zlfita | @PaulFertser: thanks |
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| 12:12.35 | rss | in SHR, I removed elmdentica but icons are still there, is there any way to get rid of them? |
| 12:13.06 | rss | usually the icon goes away when a package is removed |
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| 12:24.58 | DocScrutinizer | rssdelete the .desktop file in /usr/share/apps or somesuch |
| 12:25.40 | DocScrutinizer | bah, driveby-asker once more :-/ |
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| 13:18.45 | *** join/#openmoko anandnarayan (~anandnara@220.225.125.245) |
| 13:21.21 | anandnarayan | hi , I would like to know how I can program the processor of the openmoko directly , without the OS .. I mean just run a C program , programming the processor , I would like to use the phone as an embedded system . |
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| 13:22.08 | anandnarayan | i have neo freerunner gta02 . anandnarayan891@gmail.com is my contact |
| 13:22.51 | SpeedEvil | Of course you can. |
| 13:23.00 | anandnarayan | I am student who wants to create a very small OS , just to know how things work and I want to do this with neo freerunner , where can I get some help |
| 13:23.02 | SpeedEvil | Get the uboot, or QI source. |
| 13:23.11 | anandnarayan | okay and then |
| 13:23.12 | SpeedEvil | implement what it implements. |
| 13:23.25 | SpeedEvil | then it's simply a matter of programming the SoC to do stuff. |
| 13:23.35 | SpeedEvil | the graphics chip is going to be deeply annoying. |
| 13:25.15 | anandnarayan | like any points to make my job easier , like the tough part would to write device drivers .. and more over I am a noob at low level stuff , how do I exactly program the SoC , where do I place the C code , what compiler do I use ? |
| 13:25.43 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: there's some "barebones" example on the wiki. |
| 13:25.46 | SpeedEvil | gcc works just fine. |
| 13:26.05 | SpeedEvil | If there are examples - great! |
| 13:26.18 | SpeedEvil | The fr is not a great choice in some ways as a devboard. |
| 13:26.29 | anandnarayan | PaulFertser , it would be a great help if you can get me those links |
| 13:26.38 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: hold on |
| 13:27.05 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bare_metal ? |
| 13:27.44 | anandnarayan | SpeedEvil , I am very interested in knowing how a Phone is programmed , and I have purchased fr , so I am looking to forward to learning on the fr itself , what could be a better solution |
| 13:27.46 | anandnarayan | ? |
| 13:28.11 | SpeedEvil | anandnarayan: 'how a phone is programmed' - is in many ways not an interesting thing. |
| 13:28.27 | SpeedEvil | It's basically - for the FR - simply another linux platform. |
| 13:28.45 | SpeedEvil | The only non linuxy bits are the bootloader. |
| 13:29.11 | SpeedEvil | How phones are programmed is generally by taking the least effort solution, nothing clever. |
| 13:29.29 | anandnarayan | PaulFertser , thank you very much . I got what I needed in a jiffy from you , I didnt get through google for three days . |
| 13:29.44 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: welcome |
| 13:29.48 | SpeedEvil | Which is generally to either port linux or symbian or android or ... to your hardware. |
| 13:29.56 | SpeedEvil | or SHR or ... of course. |
| 13:30.16 | SpeedEvil | 'nobody' programs phones in assembler - for example. |
| 13:31.00 | anandnarayan | SpeedEvil , just my curiosity to learn more about programming a device .. |
| 13:31.05 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: for a research or educational project gta02 is quite ok: can't be bricked, inexpensive, powerful, reusable as a phone :D |
| 13:31.30 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: also it can be used as a base for many fun robotics or other embedded projects. |
| 13:32.01 | anandnarayan | PaulFertser : thats exactly what I am heading towards , can you tel me , where exactly would be a good start for me |
| 13:32.03 | PaulFertser | I'd say it's one of the best platforms for educational purposes. |
| 13:32.29 | SpeedEvil | In many ways the neo1973 is possibly a better device from a dev platform POV |
| 13:32.35 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: if you want to go without OS to learn some ARM assembly and try to write a simple scheduler: the link i pasted. |
| 13:32.39 | SpeedEvil | neglecting the unbrickability |
| 13:33.06 | SpeedEvil | in that you have to go through _lots_ fewer hoops to get the display and the SD working. |
| 13:33.14 | SpeedEvil | Based on my quick look at the glamo code. |
| 13:33.25 | SpeedEvil | I don't know what a minimal glamo driver would look like. |
| 13:33.55 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: embedded projects: nothing special, it's just linux, so just using the usual documentation will suffice. And come here if you have some particular questions and are ready to learn. |
| 13:34.06 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: i'd borrow that from u-boot fork for gta02. |
| 13:34.58 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: it's much better to have a debug board for the low-level work. You'll want JTAG for debugging, that's for sure. |
| 13:35.13 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: and in fact you can use almost any JTAG adapter with compatible voltage. |
| 13:35.21 | anandnarayan | PaulFertser: why do you say its just linux , arent embedded projects , more similar to the link you sent me |
| 13:35.56 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: modern embedded projects are often based on a full-featured (read "runs Linux") devices as it's much simpler than anything else. And cheap enough. |
| 13:36.09 | PaulFertser | nvm grammar :/ |
| 13:36.58 | anandnarayan | PaulFertser : I have purchased a debug board too and I have no clue as to what It does , basically I wanted to learn ARM coding , so I promised to make a small OS for openmoko(without any knowledge of how to do it) for my university project . so here I am |
| 13:36.58 | SpeedEvil | 'proper' embedded projects these days are limited to stuff that can't run linux (or vxworks) easily |
| 13:37.09 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: for the really simple and cheap embedded you might want to look at AVR devices instead. |
| 13:37.31 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: well, you know what i'm talking about, i know what you're talking about ;) |
| 13:37.35 | PaulFertser | It's all about terminology. |
| 13:37.37 | SpeedEvil | For example, you're not going to run linux on a device with 10 bytes of RAM, and 250 words of code. |
| 13:37.47 | SpeedEvil | yes - I was talking to anandnarayan |
| 13:38.19 | SpeedEvil | And the device with 250 words of code and 10 bytes of RAM maybe takes 20 or 30 instructions to initialise. |
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| 13:38.32 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: or if you need more power, probably STM32 or other Cortex-M3 uCs. |
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| 13:38.48 | SpeedEvil | With a device like the ARM in the fr, you're looking more like several thousand at minimum. |
| 13:39.30 | SpeedEvil | stm32 is great. |
| 13:39.30 | SpeedEvil | 32 bit, not too expensive, and dozens of K of ROM and RAM |
| 13:39.30 | SpeedEvil | Also unbrickable rs232 bootloader |
| 13:39.30 | anandnarayan | PaulFertser: yes I realised that I should have gone for a board like arduino , but I had already purchased neo frunner , and also my university expecting me to do something on it , I must stick to this |
| 13:39.58 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: i've recently learned some stm32 versions have no way to activate the BL due to hardware errata :) STM32F105 earlier than some specific date. |
| 13:40.06 | SpeedEvil | eww. |
| 13:40.41 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: the low-pin version. You just can't force pins to proper state because they're not routed outside :) |
| 13:40.45 | SpeedEvil | anandnarayan: There are lots of linux tasks that need some love in the embedded area. |
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| 13:41.20 | anandnarayan | PaulFertser and SpeedEvil : what are the prerequistes (things I should know) before I venture into programming fr , or I just dive in and learn |
| 13:41.41 | PaulFertser | anandnarayan: you need to decide what exactly you want to do first i'd say |
| 13:41.42 | anandnarayan | SpeedEvil:linux tasks as in |
| 13:42.41 | SpeedEvil | anandnarayan: for example, teaching the swap algorithm about flash. You want to - if swapping to SD or mmc, or any wear leveled media - write out swap in a linear manner. Never fragmenting it. |
| 13:43.12 | SpeedEvil | The current algorithm doesn't really do this - so swapout performance can be under 1% of optimal in some cases. |
| 13:43.26 | anandnarayan | PaulFertser: I want to make a very minimal program running on FR , having a text editor and a calculator |
| 13:43.27 | SpeedEvil | (flash sucks when you do random writes) |
| 13:43.43 | SpeedEvil | you also need to tell it to never readahead on flash for swap. |
| 13:44.51 | anandnarayan | SpeedEvil: i get a vague picture of what you are trying to say , but I guess I need some knowledge on the way the kernel handles the filesystem |
| 13:46.32 | SpeedEvil | http://elinux.org/Category:Project_proposals |
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| 13:47.02 | SpeedEvil | http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~msaxena/FlashVMpaper.html |
| 13:49.56 | SpeedEvil | http://tree.celinuxforum.org/pipermail/celinux-dev/2010-January/001995.html - if you want a challenging project. :) |
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| 13:54.26 | anandnarayan | i realise that I need to do some learning , before I understand this stuff , I am interested , so let me start with the bare_bones first and then get back to you guys , thanks a lot for your time , it was very inspiring and comforting to find help |
| 13:56.43 | PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: if i ever decide i want to do a Ph.D. work i'll ask you for the pointers ;) |
| 13:58.42 | SpeedEvil | good luck! |
| 13:59.21 | SpeedEvil | In some ways the 'barebones kernel' work is 6 years too late |
| 13:59.41 | SpeedEvil | As processors that can run linux are heading for $5 |
| 14:01.43 | DocScrutinizer | points to wikireader "OS" |
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| 14:02.57 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 14:03.12 | SpeedEvil | A whole system that can run linux is $10 at least |
| 14:03.18 | DocScrutinizer | afaik it even has a calculator |
| 14:03.19 | SpeedEvil | which is too much in many cases. |
| 14:03.42 | SpeedEvil | but it's gonna be $8 next year |
| 14:05.31 | DocScrutinizer | anandnarayan said he's got a debubo, so it shouldn't be too heavy a task to get some very basic shit running, no? |
| 14:06.27 | SpeedEvil | debubo? |
| 14:06.40 | anandnarayan | DocScrutinizer : I have no clue as to what the debug board does |
| 14:06.51 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 14:07.05 | DocScrutinizer | ~debubo is DocScrutinizer's way to call the debug board |
| 14:07.06 | apt | okay, DocScrutinizer |
| 14:07.06 | SpeedEvil | It lets you talk serial to the processor. |
| 14:07.15 | SpeedEvil | And JTAG |
| 14:07.21 | SpeedEvil | JTAG is a low-level test interface |
| 14:07.55 | DocScrutinizer | anandnarayan: for you it first and foremost provides a RS232-style terminal interface to FR |
| 14:08.30 | Wonka | ...on which the kernel may spew OOPSes and panics |
| 14:08.44 | DocScrutinizer | driving the rs232 hardware on FR isn't really complicated |
| 14:08.55 | SpeedEvil | no, that's an easy bit :) |
| 14:09.10 | Wonka | and especially the panics are not easy to come by on another way |
| 14:09.13 | DocScrutinizer | Wonka: we're talking bare-metal here. No kernel arond to do such things |
| 14:09.56 | anandnarayan | DocSrutinizer : cant I actually talk serial without the debubo , through hyperterminal |
| 14:09.59 | anandnarayan | usb |
| 14:10.20 | DocScrutinizer | you could, if you want to mplement a whole USB stack |
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| 14:11.19 | DocScrutinizer | interfacing the RS232 UART is simple - interfacing a USB virtual tty is a scary task |
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| 14:12.59 | anandnarayan | i think uboot does that for me ? |
| 14:13.14 | DocScrutinizer | no, uBoot does that for uBoot |
| 14:13.48 | DocScrutinizer | uBoot will not provide any function calls you can use in your own program |
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| 14:14.17 | DocScrutinizer | except of course if you decide to copy & paste some of the uBoot source ;-) |
| 14:15.29 | anandnarayan | okay I really need to get started , so that I can reallly understand whats happening fully . Very exciting .. nice community :-) , will surely be back to learn more |
| 14:16.19 | DocScrutinizer | whatever bootloader you'll use, it just loads your program code to RAM for you, then jumps to a startaddress of that code, and leaves you with a clean stupid system. No bios calls, no libs, nothing |
| 14:17.16 | anandnarayan | okay :-) |
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| 14:21.52 | DocScrutinizer | anandnarayan: also keep in mind the bare-metal wiki page PaulFertser pointed you at, it seems a little untested and also seems to refer to GTA01 neo1973 rather than neo FreeRunner |
| 14:22.35 | DocScrutinizer | I don't think FR can blink the backlight of screen in the way suggested on that page |
| 14:24.18 | DocScrutinizer | anandnarayan: but on FR otoh you can blink 3 different LEDs of the 2 buttons, which you obviously can't on neo1973 ;-) |
| 14:24.38 | anandnarayan | DocScrutinizer , any guide on how to do that? |
| 14:25.45 | DocScrutinizer | adapt the hw address #define GPBDAT *((volatile unsigned long*)0x56000014) to point to any of the LEDs of FR, on that wikipage code |
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| 14:27.52 | anandnarayan | okay , rest of the addressed remain the same? |
| 14:28.06 | DocScrutinizer | I'd guess so |
| 14:28.30 | DocScrutinizer | had no close inspection of that code |
| 14:29.00 | DocScrutinizer | just noticed it talked about flashing the backlight, which isn't such a simple task on FR |
| 14:29.44 | anandnarayan | and where do I get to learn all this , what documentation should I refer , which is my first step , thats what I wanted to know |
| 14:30.12 | DocScrutinizer | hmhm |
| 14:30.45 | DocScrutinizer | you find the schematics on my page people.openmoko.org/joerg/schematics |
| 14:31.42 | DocScrutinizer | then you'd probably need the user manual of the SoC (~1800pages iirc), or you refer to the kernel sources to find out about such details like hw addresses etc |
| 14:32.55 | DocScrutinizer | there's no good educational docs for FR |
| 14:32.56 | anandnarayan | ok great .. where is the user manual for the SoC , i think that should give a detailed picture |
| 14:33.16 | DocScrutinizer | that's hard to spot, I guess |
| 14:33.39 | DocScrutinizer | skim the om wiki, there might be a ponter |
| 14:35.41 | DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Samsung_S3C2440A |
| 14:36.06 | DocScrutinizer | err |
| 14:36.09 | DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Samsung_S3C2442B |
| 14:39.20 | anandnarayan | okay ... so let me try something and then get back with my doubts |
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| 14:43.49 | anandnarayan | the samsung processor document links are not available |
| 14:43.56 | anandnarayan | they point to Page not Foun |
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| 14:49.21 | openmoko-jabber_ | Martix: anandnarayan: just fixed, lets try http://www.amebasystems.com/downloads/hardware/datasheets/freerunner/SoC/um_s3c2442b_rev12.pdf |
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| 15:21.30 | anandnarayan | thank you |
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| 17:15.04 | PBeck | hi |
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| 23:26.03 | UndrWater | anyone using qi-bootmenu? |
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