| 00:00.08 | LuitvD | so you can start off with a Master right after that... |
| 00:00.08 | LuitvD | in theory :P |
| 00:00.33 | Jeroen | in practice, things don't always fit together, at least that's what I'm seeing |
| 00:00.44 | LuitvD | and I've made it through VWO, so the Univ can't really say I don't belong there, after I've gone through HBO |
| 00:01.03 | LuitvD | and so what, then it is 2 years longer |
| 00:01.08 | LuitvD | I like doing EE |
| 00:01.26 | LuitvD | :) |
| 00:01.31 | Kero | hehe |
| 00:02.13 | LuitvD | I think it's strange how many people just get going on Univ blindly these days |
| 00:02.19 | Kero | no reason to hurry (except perhaps funding, lousy governmental rules) |
| 00:02.21 | LuitvD | most of 'em drop out |
| 00:02.44 | LuitvD | Kero: funding is quite good IMHO :P |
| 00:02.55 | Jeroen | of course it doesn't matter that much, even if you go to univ you might take just as long to get your master degree :-P |
| 00:03.03 | *** part/#openmoko skout (i=skout@impulse.vortex.org) |
| 00:03.13 | LuitvD | my 'collegegeld' is completely funded by my 'studiefinanciering' |
| 00:03.26 | *** join/#openmoko taslack__ (n=taslack@umma227.dn65.umontana.edu) |
| 00:03.27 | Jeroen | of course |
| 00:03.37 | Jeroen | but then you also need money to drink beer and things :-) |
| 00:03.47 | Kero | yup. I'd just say, if you have the capabilities to go to univ, get that MSc at some point. You're unlikely to get the chance again after you get a fulltiem job. |
| 00:03.55 | LuitvD | I pay my collegefees in 6 terms, and those terms are completely evened out (financially) by the financing |
| 00:04.40 | LuitvD | All I need to take care of is getting the materials in september, and after that, every euro I get when working, can be used for beer |
| 00:05.32 | Kero | hehe :) |
| 00:05.48 | Kero | ok, I'm off to bed |
| 00:05.53 | LuitvD | Jeroen: really, with a starting budget of <500 euros I can get through it all without any trouble |
| 00:06.01 | LuitvD | 'night Kero |
| 00:06.06 | Jeroen | true |
| 00:06.07 | LuitvD | I think I should be going too... |
| 00:06.39 | LuitvD | it's weekend, but that doen't mean I don't want to be alive tomorrowmorning |
| 00:06.54 | LuitvD | :) |
| 00:07.12 | Jeroen | it's not that when you still live at your parents' place |
| 00:07.16 | Jeroen | that bad |
| 00:07.30 | LuitvD | it's not bad at all |
| 00:08.03 | LuitvD | I get food and shelter from the parents, and money from the govt. |
| 00:08.18 | Jeroen | it's worse when you live on your own, you only get roughly 200 euro/month more which won't cover the cost |
| 00:08.25 | LuitvD | yeah |
| 00:08.43 | LuitvD | that's why I'm glad Utrecht's EE facilities are nice :) |
| 00:08.45 | Jeroen | but then it would be better to just borrow more money if you need it |
| 00:09.37 | LuitvD | you'd still need a job with full financing |
| 00:10.08 | *** part/#openmoko taslack__ (n=taslack@umma227.dn65.umontana.edu) |
| 00:10.09 | Jeroen | depends on what you get from your parents and how much your parents earn |
| 00:10.31 | Jeroen | the total amount is more than 700 euro/month IIRC |
| 00:11.18 | Jeroen | but that's only when your parents don't earn a lot of money |
| 00:11.35 | LuitvD | max. 741 |
| 00:11.42 | Jeroen | else they assume your parents give you some money for studying |
| 00:12.05 | LuitvD | well, my added funding is only 30 euro below max |
| 00:12.31 | LuitvD | (they expect my dad to finance me for 31 euro a month) |
| 00:12.55 | LuitvD | (he'll do thrice that amount, by paying my healthcare insurance) |
| 00:13.19 | LuitvD | so I'm not really missing out on that... |
| 00:13.39 | LuitvD | I'll get 266 euro / month starting october this year |
| 00:13.40 | Jeroen | anyway, just try to make the right decision, because it will have a big impact on your life |
| 00:13.54 | LuitvD | I have made the right decision |
| 00:13.57 | LuitvD | I'm certain |
| 00:14.11 | LuitvD | I've really thought this over for a long time |
| 00:14.27 | LuitvD | long long time... about a year or two :P |
| 00:14.37 | Jeroen | personally I've never regretted going to univ |
| 00:14.54 | LuitvD | how well did you get through VWO then? |
| 00:15.15 | Jeroen | not with that much trouble |
| 00:15.39 | Jeroen | most of the trouble was with languages (dutch, french, german) |
| 00:15.51 | Jeroen | that doesn't really matter that much |
| 00:15.53 | LuitvD | I think that of my graduation year, I'm the one who did the least... |
| 00:16.24 | LuitvD | and my exams kicked my marks down |
| 00:16.58 | Jeroen | I probably also did the least, or at least was in the group who did the least |
| 00:17.07 | LuitvD | had a 7 on chem, phys and math, and in the end it was a 5 for math, and 6 for phys and chem |
| 00:17.22 | Jeroen | and you've to work harder in univ :-) |
| 00:17.25 | LuitvD | all because of the exams |
| 00:17.44 | LuitvD | at least you'll have to work on something interesting :P |
| 00:18.11 | Jeroen | true, but if your habit is to not make any homework, start learning the week before an exam, etc |
| 00:18.31 | Jeroen | it's hard to get rid of that, at least it is for me |
| 00:19.25 | LuitvD | I can't "learn" |
| 00:19.25 | *** join/#openmoko merriam_ (n=merriam@85-211-239-240.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 00:19.25 | LuitvD | I can 'get' things, or I don't 'get' them |
| 00:19.25 | LuitvD | for me it's to understand, or not to understand |
| 00:19.46 | LuitvD | (or have something in my passive memory because of repetitive use/occurance) |
| 00:20.21 | Jeroen | making exercises is a very important way to 'get' things |
| 00:20.27 | LuitvD | yeah |
| 00:20.31 | LuitvD | that's how I learn |
| 00:20.43 | LuitvD | I can't get my book one week before a test, and start learning it |
| 00:21.06 | LuitvD | I just attend to classes, listen to what the teacher has to say, and I have it in my system |
| 00:21.42 | LuitvD | making exercises on stuff I don't get yet |
| 00:21.57 | LuitvD | just to see the logic behind it all |
| 00:22.10 | Jeroen | that's how everybody does it :-) |
| 00:22.16 | LuitvD | well, not really :P |
| 00:22.53 | LuitvD | some people can memorize complete dictionaries, and some can visualize complex systems in their head |
| 00:23.06 | LuitvD | (if you can do both, you're just extraordinary) |
| 00:23.44 | LuitvD | I can only think logically, systematically |
| 00:23.44 | Jeroen | anyway |
| 00:23.48 | LuitvD | I'm really going to bed now :P |
| 00:23.51 | LuitvD | damn, it's late |
| 00:23.57 | Jeroen | it's time to go to bed :) |
| 00:24.14 | Jeroen | good night |
| 00:24.39 | LuitvD | 'night |
| 00:24.54 | LuitvD | (it WAS time to go to bed) |
| 00:25.00 | LuitvD | (now it's just late :P ) |
| 00:25.21 | CIA-17 | openmoko: 03alphaone * r2352 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) |
| 00:25.21 | CIA-17 | openmoko: 2007-06-30 Daniel Willmann <daniel@totalueberwachung.de> |
| 00:25.21 | CIA-17 | openmoko: * src/Makefile.am, src/callbacks.c (footer_leftbutton_clicked), |
| 00:25.21 | CIA-17 | openmoko: src/callbacks.h, src/main.c(main), src/main.h |
| 00:25.21 | CIA-17 | openmoko: * src/taskmenu.{c,h}: Added. |
| 00:25.24 | CIA-17 | openmoko: Add first version of the taskmenu and integrate it into the footer |
| 00:25.26 | CIA-17 | openmoko: The taskmenu doesn't actually do anything yet - it just displays |
| 00:26.20 | *** join/#openmoko dcordes (n=erdinger@f048003013.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 00:27.00 | dcordes | I'm here to support you guys on that dark day in mobile phone history :) |
| 00:27.50 | thomasg_ | the day after the iphone? :) |
| 00:27.57 | dcordes | yes |
| 00:30.01 | alphaone | It's dark indeed and I guess I should go to bed before it gets light again |
| 00:30.09 | alphaone | night everyone |
| 00:33.48 | SpeedEvil | Night. |
| 00:33.53 | zecke | alphaone: night |
| 00:37.47 | thomasg_ | hm, for a guy without the least knowledge about programming it's damn hard to write in C -.- |
| 00:41.15 | Basheri | :D |
| 00:43.22 | cjb | thomasg_: yes, C is an awful first language. |
| 00:48.45 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 00:51.23 | *** join/#openmoko heikkit (n=chatzill@c-67-169-183-182.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 00:54.04 | Ycros | heh |
| 00:57.30 | SpeedEvil | IMO, coming to C from assembler makes it easier. |
| 00:57.38 | SpeedEvil | That may just be me though. |
| 01:02.21 | thomasg_ | well, maybe I simply shouldn't start C with a gui-toolkit :) |
| 01:02.34 | thomasg_ | makes it even harder, imho |
| 01:03.26 | ewon | my first language was spectrum BASIC |
| 01:03.35 | ewon | good times |
| 01:04.30 | SpeedEvil | It made the spectrum keyboard seem good! |
| 01:07.14 | ewon | heh :) |
| 01:07.29 | ewon | what do kids do these days? |
| 01:07.43 | ewon | it's not like every xbox 360 comes with a BASIC interpreter :( |
| 01:09.41 | thomasg_ | not even win xp "Professional" pc's come with any kind of compiler/interpreter |
| 01:12.29 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@207.181.6.54) |
| 01:12.40 | strtok | you can download visual C++ 2005 for free |
| 01:13.16 | ewon | *has |
| 01:13.56 | balrog-kun | i think most windows versions come with some kind of script interpreter, don't remember what it was called (something like wscript or something) |
| 01:14.13 | balrog-kun | older versions (dos) had qbasic and "debug.com" |
| 01:14.22 | ewon | qbasic was good |
| 01:14.31 | balrog-kun | i hated the editor :) |
| 01:14.39 | ewon | especially the "pro" version that you could make real .exes with |
| 01:14.53 | ewon | the SOUND command was hilarious |
| 01:15.04 | balrog-kun | .exes from basic? that's sick :p |
| 01:15.18 | ewon | 12 pcs in a lab, all screeching out 12khz, making people's fillings vibrate |
| 01:18.19 | SpeedEvil | (PSP LCD) |
| 01:23.36 | Dvalin | gimmegimme |
| 01:55.29 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 02:03.27 | *** join/#openmoko raster (n=raster@p2141-ipbf2304marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) |
| 02:29.24 | *** join/#openmoko peepsalot (n=peeps@cpe-70-112-25-110.austin.res.rr.com) |
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| 03:00.29 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 03:00.36 | daMaestro | july 9... |
| 03:00.37 | daMaestro | blah |
| 03:01.51 | daMaestro | couter |
| 03:01.54 | daMaestro | couter? |
| 03:02.18 | madwoota | counter |
| 03:02.18 | aloril | (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 08:57:41 (9.373±1.0 days) (1650;242) |
| 03:02.27 | daMaestro | madwoota, show off ;-) |
| 03:02.28 | daMaestro | lol |
| 03:02.55 | madwoota | i spel gooder |
| 03:03.04 | ansivirus | lol |
| 03:03.29 | daMaestro | http://giyf.us/define:couter |
| 03:03.58 | daMaestro | madwoota, i was just protecting my elbows |
| 03:05.59 | madwoota | "Did you mean: define:counter" |
| 03:06.01 | madwoota | lol :P |
| 03:06.24 | daMaestro | lol.. stupid google |
| 03:06.30 | daMaestro | of course i didn't mean counter! |
| 03:06.30 | daMaestro | lol |
| 03:06.46 | raster | excellent |
| 03:06.56 | raster | can get to the outside world |
| 03:06.59 | raster | muhahaha |
| 03:07.33 | daMaestro | raster, jp got'cha down? |
| 03:08.10 | raster | nooo |
| 03:08.23 | raster | my neo now can connect to the rest of the internude |
| 03:08.32 | raster | i managed to brick it |
| 03:08.35 | raster | and now de-brick it |
| 03:08.48 | daMaestro | haha internude.. that is awesome |
| 03:08.55 | raster | along with the old problem of "bettery dont charge" and "flat battery == no neo boot" |
| 03:09.11 | raster | so i needed to do some funky stuff to get it alive again |
| 03:09.16 | raster | but now its back and kicking |
| 03:09.17 | raster | :) |
| 03:09.17 | daMaestro | raster, are you using a phase 0 device? |
| 03:09.29 | raster | 01v4 |
| 03:09.41 | daMaestro | is that what we get to spend money on soon? |
| 03:09.41 | raster | but it had and old bootloader |
| 03:10.08 | raster | i needed to reflahs bootloader to update to get it to boot with a flat battery and charge |
| 03:10.11 | raster | i guess so |
| 03:10.31 | raster | usb-wise it comes up as a usb ethernet device once the kernel is booted |
| 03:10.37 | raster | before that u get usb serial devices |
| 03:10.41 | raster | for the bootloader |
| 03:10.48 | raster | (serial console) |
| 03:11.00 | raster | ui and userspace wise its nowhere near usable |
| 03:11.06 | raster | but that just needs fixing |
| 03:11.07 | raster | :) |
| 03:11.40 | daMaestro | does a usb ethernet device work? ... such.. can i plug my usb ethernet into the device and use a standard CAT`X` connection? |
| 03:12.26 | SpeedEvil | No |
| 03:12.39 | SpeedEvil | USB ethernet is a virtual ethernet connection between host and device |
| 03:12.41 | daMaestro | doh |
| 03:12.46 | SpeedEvil | there is no actual real ethernet there |
| 03:12.49 | raster | its the other way around |
| 03:13.02 | daMaestro | right, but i am asking if someone has tried a usb ethernet device |
| 03:13.07 | raster | the neo presents ITSELF as a usb ethernet device TO the host pc its plugged into (vie the usb cable) |
| 03:13.13 | daMaestro | ah |
| 03:13.17 | daMaestro | well.. cool |
| 03:13.19 | raster | the ethernet port is unpowered |
| 03:13.29 | SpeedEvil | Yes - between host and device. I diddn't specify which way :) |
| 03:13.35 | raster | so no device will work that doesnt have a way of getting its power from somewhere else |
| 03:13.41 | bonan | cool ;) |
| 03:13.46 | daMaestro | ok.. yeah.. i see the issue more now |
| 03:13.48 | SpeedEvil | You can use an ethernet USB adaptor or any other USB thing. But. |
| 03:13.54 | SpeedEvil | You need a battery powerd hub. |
| 03:14.05 | raster | yup |
| 03:14.11 | raster | neo isnt goign to power your devices for you |
| 03:14.13 | daMaestro | ok.. so i *can* use a usb ethernet adaptor with a powered hub |
| 03:14.15 | SpeedEvil | Or AC of course |
| 03:14.16 | daMaestro | neat.. that is what i was asking |
| 03:14.17 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 03:14.22 | daMaestro | cool |
| 03:14.32 | raster | the 02 will have wifi |
| 03:14.35 | SpeedEvil | Or webcam, hard disk, USB rocket launcher |
| 03:14.46 | raster | so that might be better |
| 03:15.14 | daMaestro | is the 02 what we are going to see in oct? |
| 03:15.24 | SpeedEvil | Scheduled for, yes |
| 03:18.26 | *** join/#openmoko arw (i=familia@201.244.105.86) |
| 03:23.48 | raster | details are public on the 02 |
| 03:34.43 | *** join/#openmoko mindCrime (n=chatzill@cpe-065-190-188-124.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 03:37.50 | *** part/#openmoko arw (i=familia@201.244.105.86) |
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| 03:44.10 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 03:44.18 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] |
| 03:51.24 | daMaestro | so, what are the plans for supporting 3G or 4G networks? |
| 03:51.34 | daMaestro | or are we pretty much stuck with 2G + wiki |
| 03:51.51 | Aria | 802.11g? |
| 03:51.54 | Aria | That. |
| 03:51.56 | daMaestro | i know GSM is 2G |
| 03:52.06 | daMaestro | no no... there is some rating system |
| 03:52.33 | summatusmentis | GPRS is also available on the neo(2.5G) |
| 03:53.17 | daMaestro | yeah yeah.. still 2G ;-) |
| 03:53.18 | daMaestro | lol |
| 03:53.26 | daMaestro | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G |
| 03:53.46 | daMaestro | corrected* |
| 03:53.53 | daMaestro | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.5G |
| 03:55.00 | daMaestro | ahh wifi is not classified as a XG because it is not a licensed spectrum? |
| 03:56.00 | daMaestro | i argued with a tmobile "tech" about this stuff |
| 03:56.14 | summatusmentis | while it's unlikely, did anyone here got and get an iPhone? |
| 03:56.18 | daMaestro | i was showing off the open moko.. and he got all into the "you wont have tzones" ... "xyz tech is slow" |
| 03:56.23 | daMaestro | i pretty much wanted to punch him |
| 03:56.47 | summatusmentis | tzones is... the wifi thinger? |
| 03:57.16 | daMaestro | yeah.. something stupid |
| 03:57.30 | daMaestro | i really wanted to punch the guy (and i know him well) |
| 03:57.39 | daMaestro | he first argued that it is G3... |
| 03:57.48 | daMaestro | and that verizon is slower then tmobile |
| 03:57.58 | daMaestro | when verizon has WCDMA .. i wanted to punch him |
| 03:58.11 | summatusmentis | verizon has WCDMA? |
| 03:58.21 | summatusmentis | EV-DO yes, I didn't know they had WCDMA |
| 03:58.38 | daMaestro | yeah.. that is what vcast runs on, afaik |
| 03:58.58 | summatusmentis | I thought that was EV-DO? |
| 03:59.03 | summatusmentis | I guess vcast could run on both |
| 04:00.14 | daMaestro | hmm might be.. now that i am looking at their wiki page |
| 04:00.25 | daMaestro | let me find where i saw WCDMA listed for verizon |
| 04:00.45 | daMaestro | is there any planned 3G support? |
| 04:01.09 | summatusmentis | for the neo? I don't think so |
| 04:01.22 | summatusmentis | when fic announces more devices though, I believe there will be 3G support |
| 04:05.04 | raster | daMaestro: i am sure eventually on some future models 3g and better will appear |
| 04:05.13 | daMaestro | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_mobile_phone_companies |
| 04:05.18 | raster | but probably to keep costs low 2.5g is as good as it gets for now |
| 04:05.28 | raster | 802.11 has been added to the 02 |
| 04:05.35 | SpeedEvil | There are something like 6 or 7 'faster than GSM' standards that are needed. |
| 04:05.50 | SpeedEvil | Various frequencies/standards worldwide. |
| 04:05.53 | raster | for now gsm./gprs i0s a good baseline |
| 04:05.57 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 04:05.58 | daMaestro | hmm but that still doesn't list it |
| 04:06.08 | SpeedEvil | and 'all in one' modules don't exist |
| 04:06.09 | raster | as its probably the most widely supported and implemented network layer |
| 04:06.11 | daMaestro | oh well... i know they have it: http://giyf.us/verizon+wcdma |
| 04:06.14 | raster | and works just about everywhere |
| 04:06.17 | raster | (except japan) |
| 04:06.51 | SpeedEvil | And US |
| 04:06.57 | SpeedEvil | Some of US |
| 04:06.58 | raster | gsm works in the usa |
| 04:07.03 | SpeedEvil | and most of india |
| 04:07.04 | raster | well reasonable chunks of it |
| 04:07.05 | SpeedEvil | IIRC |
| 04:07.11 | raster | and india too |
| 04:07.17 | raster | thats just a matter of coverage of certain networks |
| 04:07.19 | SpeedEvil | But the rest is fine. |
| 04:07.24 | raster | also the usa usea a different frequency |
| 04:07.33 | summatusmentis | raster: yeah, except for all the lame boonie places(where for some reason I tend to end up in) |
| 04:07.50 | raster | summatusmentis: i dont go there |
| 04:07.50 | raster | :) |
| 04:07.57 | raster | actually i try and avoid the usa if i can |
| 04:08.19 | raster | the security at airports and level of mistrust of innocent travellers just pisses me off |
| 04:08.24 | daMaestro | lol |
| 04:08.36 | raster | u just fly THROUGh the usa |
| 04:08.39 | raster | on the way to somewhere else |
| 04:08.41 | raster | like brazil |
| 04:08.46 | raster | and u have to go thru immigration |
| 04:08.52 | raster | and they give u the 3rd degree of |
| 04:09.07 | raster | "why are you here - are you coming here to work? why the fuck should we let you in?" |
| 04:09.09 | daMaestro | do we expect most carriers to give the openmoko platform a bit plan? |
| 04:09.17 | raster | when all i want to do is get onto the next airport and the hell out of there |
| 04:09.18 | raster | :) |
| 04:09.31 | raster | daMaestro: hell no |
| 04:09.33 | raster | its an open phone |
| 04:09.38 | raster | u think carriers LIKE that? |
| 04:09.41 | summatusmentis | raster: don't get me started... it's all because bush is a war hungry conservative pig. |
| 04:09.45 | summatusmentis | But I'm not gonna go there :-) |
| 04:09.59 | raster | summatusmentis: i didnt even begin down that road |
| 04:10.04 | raster | just sticking to the facts |
| 04:10.07 | raster | not the "why's" |
| 04:10.07 | summatusmentis | lol, I'm aware |
| 04:10.08 | raster | :) |
| 04:10.15 | daMaestro | i've read that most prepay services wont allow you a bit plan.. and i was warned that with tmobile.. you don't get data access plans with "unlocked" phones |
| 04:10.18 | raster | there was a time when u travelled to the usa |
| 04:10.29 | raster | u were greeted wityh a smile |
| 04:10.34 | raster | and a "welcome to the usa" |
| 04:10.38 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: New Oceans |
| 04:10.38 | summatusmentis | but anyway, GSM does work relatively well in most of the country |
| 04:10.50 | raster | with a few perfunctory stamping of your passport |
| 04:10.52 | raster | etc. |
| 04:10.54 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: tmobile won't let you do a data plan? :-( |
| 04:10.56 | raster | aaah |
| 04:11.00 | raster | better days |
| 04:11.01 | raster | :) |
| 04:11.30 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, this was also from a person that was calling it G3 |
| 04:12.01 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: oh, I guess it'd depend on who you're talking to |
| 04:12.16 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, it was mentioned that you don't get any data access on the prepay networks |
| 04:12.29 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: if nothing else, you get a cheap phone, sign up for the $6 data on the handset plan, and http://wiki.howardforums.com/index.php/T-Mobile_Data use that to set it up on the neo |
| 04:14.07 | raster | interesting that u are worrying about all of this |
| 04:14.15 | summatusmentis | paulproteus is gonna be trying that soon-ish, and I'm hoping that works out :-) |
| 04:14.16 | summatusmentis | raster: ? |
| 04:14.19 | raster | and you havent even seen an openmoko runing yet :) |
| 04:14.35 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, wait.. what? |
| 04:14.45 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, $6 ... but WAP only? |
| 04:14.59 | summatusmentis | looks like it might be wap only... I don't know |
| 04:15.04 | summatusmentis | is wap bad? |
| 04:16.00 | summatusmentis | raster: lol, that's true... it's called planning ahead |
| 04:16.08 | raster | hehehe |
| 04:16.27 | raster | maybe we should focus on gettign somethign that just can do any data at all over a network (other than 802.11) |
| 04:16.32 | raster | and make and recieve calls and sms's |
| 04:16.58 | raster | and get things like main menu, address book, virtual kbd etc. etc. etc. etc. |
| 04:16.58 | raster | all working usably and stabilly |
| 04:17.00 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, WAP is a very limited protocol |
| 04:17.01 | raster | at a speed that is acceptable |
| 04:17.13 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, you basically have to hit the carriers gateway of the WAP protocol |
| 04:17.27 | raster | a web browser that is fast and decent (possibly webkit based) |
| 04:17.28 | raster | etc. |
| 04:17.28 | daMaestro | most sites on the internet don't support WAP |
| 04:17.39 | raster | wap's dead |
| 04:17.43 | raster | it was almost still-born anyway |
| 04:18.10 | summatusmentis | raster: well, I'm not really a dev, just a lurker who's excited |
| 04:18.12 | summatusmentis | :-P |
| 04:18.19 | daMaestro | but look.. carriers still use WAP |
| 04:18.34 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, http://giyf.us/define:WAP |
| 04:18.43 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: I guess that's fair, so a blackberry plan or something is what we'd need? |
| 04:19.05 | raster | summatusmentis: aaah |
| 04:19.12 | daMaestro | stay as far away from "blackberry" services as you can |
| 04:19.24 | raster | well my aim for now is to get e17 up on my neo |
| 04:19.33 | raster | brew something of a usable ui |
| 04:20.06 | raster | :) |
| 04:20.06 | daMaestro | raster, nice |
| 04:20.06 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: from what I've seen, 'blackberry' services are the only other option for most carriers. It's that, wap, or a pc card |
| 04:20.18 | raster | its usable on my n800 |
| 04:20.20 | daMaestro | raster, i've got the qemu-neo1973 packages for fedora... not tested yet |
| 04:20.29 | raster | and frankly the n800 and neo are give or take not dissimilar |
| 04:20.33 | raster | except for screen res |
| 04:20.39 | summatusmentis | raster: will it be usable w/ fingers? |
| 04:20.46 | daMaestro | i just hate that brand. |
| 04:20.49 | raster | summatusmentis: hell no |
| 04:20.52 | raster | everything is too small |
| 04:20.53 | raster | :) |
| 04:21.18 | daMaestro | it does look like i get to setup a proxy system |
| 04:21.23 | daMaestro | but that is no big deal |
| 04:21.39 | daMaestro | i've already got one running on a 100mbit port |
| 04:21.56 | raster | for now my major concern is if it runs at a decent speed |
| 04:22.05 | raster | need to se how the new 16bpp engine fares |
| 04:22.16 | raster | the 02 and above will have gfx accel of some sort |
| 04:22.18 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: setting up a proxy system... how does that work? |
| 04:22.21 | raster | so thats another kettle of fish |
| 04:22.49 | daMaestro | well.. so i can circumvent any carrier transit restrictions... |
| 04:22.53 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: I mean, I know how a proxy works, but you're still paying for data on the cell provider right? |
| 04:22.58 | daMaestro | yes |
| 04:23.29 | summatusmentis | so.. you could in theory use the $6 plan, then just switch where it points to(the proxy, as compared to wap)? |
| 04:23.36 | daMaestro | doubt it |
| 04:23.54 | daMaestro | WAP is "you use our WAP server to request to WAP servers" |
| 04:23.55 | daMaestro | lol |
| 04:23.57 | daMaestro | afaik |
| 04:24.16 | summatusmentis | erm... what? |
| 04:24.36 | daMaestro | it's not really IP transit |
| 04:24.43 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, http://giyf.us/define:WAP |
| 04:24.52 | summatusmentis | I read that already :-P |
| 04:25.25 | daMaestro | ok.. it is not really IP transit.. you can't go to www.myrandomsite.com |
| 04:26.07 | daMaestro | it is a stupid system designed to run on existing networks.. it basically shows you how little the carriers want to support high bitrates |
| 04:26.20 | summatusmentis | that's bothersome |
| 04:26.33 | daMaestro | i'm glad raster has inferred it should go away |
| 04:27.04 | raster | what will go away? |
| 04:27.04 | raster | wap? |
| 04:27.04 | daMaestro | WAP |
| 04:27.10 | raster | i'm amazed its still there |
| 04:27.16 | raster | wml is crap |
| 04:27.28 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-33.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 04:27.29 | raster | frankly if telcos like it or not |
| 04:27.36 | raster | mobile networks WILL become just data pipes |
| 04:27.46 | raster | people will pay for their access much like dsl |
| 04:27.50 | raster | in the end |
| 04:27.57 | raster | and u will just be punting packets around |
| 04:28.01 | daMaestro | sadly.. that "end" is a long ways away |
| 04:28.04 | raster | thats the future (imho) |
| 04:28.08 | summatusmentis | idk.... they'll fight that in the US kicking and screaming |
| 04:28.10 | daMaestro | oh.. it should be |
| 04:28.12 | raster | mayaswell prepare for it now |
| 04:28.18 | raster | summatusmentis: they will |
| 04:28.18 | daMaestro | or we should all revolt |
| 04:28.21 | daMaestro | i hate telco |
| 04:28.26 | raster | but they will lose |
| 04:28.33 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, you have no idea |
| 04:28.47 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, i've been in that industry..... (fly on the wall engineer kinda person) |
| 04:28.56 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: really? |
| 04:29.03 | daMaestro | lucky enough to mingle with all the business people |
| 04:29.12 | daMaestro | they'll stab you in the back for a buck |
| 04:29.28 | summatusmentis | I'm a bit young to remember how the landline telcos fought the internet coming onto their networks |
| 04:29.30 | daMaestro | yeah, i did a lot of systems engineering consulting in the US |
| 04:29.41 | *** join/#openmoko ahbritto (n=guest@adsl-64-161-117-110.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 04:29.56 | raster | the problem is "the internet" is pushing it |
| 04:30.06 | raster | i suspect with the future benig less subsidies on phones |
| 04:30.11 | raster | as costs come donw more in making them |
| 04:30.14 | daMaestro | raster, the real problem is that in the US... we focused on long haul |
| 04:30.22 | raster | australia for example pretty much has droped subsidies for phones |
| 04:30.33 | raster | the telcos there now go "bring your own phone thanks" |
| 04:30.40 | raster | so u pay "full price" |
| 04:30.41 | daMaestro | raster, and the telcos are going to sit back and get fat for awhile... they have done so by buying up competetion and loosing money hand over fist |
| 04:30.47 | raster | and telco hands u a sim card and account |
| 04:31.04 | raster | once the teclos dont control the handsets via subsidies |
| 04:31.16 | raster | the phone makers will push harder with more features to win business |
| 04:31.19 | raster | (and lower costs) |
| 04:31.39 | summatusmentis | the gov. is gonna have to step in and force the cell telcos to give open access to the networks |
| 04:31.43 | raster | and those features will probably be all the imaginative ways of using data on a network |
| 04:31.47 | daMaestro | raster, well.. in JP.. you guys did a good job of dealing with last mile networks |
| 04:31.56 | daMaestro | raster, here in the US .. we are still developing out last mile networks |
| 04:32.12 | summatusmentis | "last mile" ? |
| 04:32.12 | raster | landline-wise for internet and phone - yes |
| 04:32.21 | daMaestro | raster, and i don't see *any* carrier getting serious and bupkiss (anything) until 4G ... or even 5G is viable |
| 04:32.23 | raster | high speed networking in jp is dirt cheap |
| 04:32.31 | raster | $40/month gets u 100mbit fibre |
| 04:32.35 | raster | has done so for years |
| 04:32.35 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, litterally.. the last mile |
| 04:32.36 | raster | now |
| 04:32.41 | daMaestro | raster, yes.. i know |
| 04:32.47 | raster | daMaestro: true |
| 04:32.55 | raster | and then we have more and more 802.11 hotspots appearing |
| 04:33.03 | raster | not to mention the "looming threat" of "wimax" |
| 04:33.05 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: the boonie areas I mentioned earlier? :-P |
| 04:33.18 | raster | i susoect presure will go on the telcos to be more open via competition |
| 04:33.18 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, no.. even in metro areas |
| 04:33.24 | raster | it will first happen in the cities |
| 04:33.28 | raster | thats life |
| 04:33.28 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, it is the "last mile" to the actual CPE |
| 04:33.34 | ansivirus | i'm thinking about upgrading my modem should i spring for one of those 56k? or get another 33.6? |
| 04:33.41 | raster | mobile phones didnt work ooutside of cities when they first apepared |
| 04:33.45 | ansivirus | :P |
| 04:33.52 | daMaestro | ansivirus, lol |
| 04:34.00 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: no idea what CPE is either :-) don't worry about it |
| 04:34.14 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, customer premise equipment |
| 04:34.25 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, how you... as a customer... interact with the network |
| 04:34.33 | summatusmentis | I see |
| 04:34.44 | daMaestro | and the last mile is the circut between the CPE and the LEC |
| 04:34.48 | daMaestro | and most cases it is the CLEC |
| 04:34.54 | daMaestro | Local exchange carrier |
| 04:35.05 | daMaestro | which has mainly boiled back down to the baby bells |
| 04:35.17 | summatusmentis | I see |
| 04:35.29 | daMaestro | clec = corporate local exchange carrier |
| 04:35.34 | summatusmentis | daMaestro: is there a way to get data on a pre-paid plan w/ tmo? |
| 04:35.37 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 04:35.44 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, i hope so |
| 04:35.51 | daMaestro | summatusmentis, that is my plan for the phase 1 device |
| 04:36.01 | daMaestro | phase 2 i might pull a contract |
| 04:36.34 | summatusmentis | well, if it's reasonable(like the sidekick $1/day) I'll probably do that for GTA02 |
| 04:36.53 | summatusmentis | I'm weighing options, as I'll be in 56267(zip) in august, and needing a new phone |
| 04:37.05 | summatusmentis | probably go tmo nationwide voice plan |
| 04:37.27 | summatusmentis | unless i can't get data when I'm 'roaming' |
| 04:38.53 | daMaestro | raster, any comments on what you think the likelyhood of being able to tunnel voip over a data plan? |
| 04:39.22 | daMaestro | basically, i want to try it when i'm on a prepay account... i was warned that they will flat out turn you off and keep your money if you do voip over their data networks |
| 04:40.20 | raster | if they notice lots of 2-way hevy data trafficde |
| 04:40.25 | raster | they might suspect you |
| 04:40.32 | raster | if u tunnel it over a vpn of your own |
| 04:40.34 | raster | and encrypt |
| 04:40.36 | raster | they cant KNOW |
| 04:40.39 | raster | they can just suspect |
| 04:40.43 | raster | as its opaque data to them |
| 04:40.48 | raster | they only know when the data is moving |
| 04:40.52 | raster | and how much in and out |
| 04:41.01 | daMaestro | yeah... i was going to vpn it |
| 04:41.24 | daMaestro | i have a tap device i can attach to on one of my servers (at a really, really nice DC) |
| 04:41.27 | raster | but read the agreement specifics |
| 04:41.32 | raster | they may not have to prove it |
| 04:41.43 | raster | if they simply dont like your data usage patterns they could shut u off |
| 04:41.45 | raster | dont know |
| 04:41.53 | daMaestro | most i have read state "if you really use what you are paying for, we will turn it off" |
| 04:42.12 | daMaestro | "network abuse" is cited |
| 04:42.18 | raster | they give u unlimited bandwidth |
| 04:42.25 | raster | like a all you can eat buffet |
| 04:42.30 | raster | the assumption is you will use less |
| 04:42.32 | raster | and most people do |
| 04:42.35 | raster | on average |
| 04:42.52 | raster | people who sit all day ddownloading/uploading data are massive outliers in their scheme |
| 04:42.55 | raster | and will be cut off |
| 04:43.08 | raster | they probably expect bursts of traffic for "web page loading" |
| 04:43.17 | *** join/#openmoko realproto123 (i=proto@detroit.slack.net) |
| 04:43.18 | raster | and the odd "lets play a 5 minute clip from youtube" |
| 04:43.20 | raster | etc. |
| 04:43.28 | raster | so u need to make your data usage look like that |
| 04:44.13 | *** join/#openmoko alienroo (i=alienroo@c211-30-194-131.carlnfd4.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 04:44.23 | alienroo | gday |
| 04:44.59 | daMaestro | raster, what about irc over vpn? |
| 04:45.18 | daMaestro | raster, what is your opinion of what the carriers will think of that? |
| 04:45.55 | daMaestro | raster, i might even just do ssh to a server with a irssi screen session... but yeah |
| 04:46.33 | daMaestro | btw.. i think the iPhone will have one positive effect.. it will show the carriers that a HIGH SPEED network is a viable system |
| 04:46.49 | daMaestro | other then that.. it is just vender lockin |
| 04:48.27 | raster | irc will be fine |
| 04:48.29 | raster | imho |
| 04:48.42 | raster | really low bandiwdht and packet count |
| 04:48.44 | raster | sporadic |
| 04:48.54 | raster | things like irc and im should be fine |
| 04:48.55 | raster | over a vpn |
| 04:49.00 | raster | if u do it open on their network |
| 04:49.05 | raster | they can block with ports/ip's |
| 04:49.12 | raster | though irc will proabbly be ignored |
| 04:49.19 | raster | ad most peole dont know what it even is |
| 04:49.27 | raster | and use "msn" or "aim" etc. |
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| 05:34.15 | daMaestro | raster, cool.. i think the same |
| 05:34.21 | *** part/#openmoko realproto123 (i=proto@detroit.slack.net) |
| 05:34.32 | raster | god DAMN monotone is slow |
| 05:35.08 | daMaestro | what are you rendering/viewing? |
| 05:37.11 | *** join/#openmoko dkirker-movie (n=dkirker@c-24-6-210-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 05:37.20 | raster | monotone |
| 05:37.28 | happycube | it took 5 and a half hours to run the build on my opty 165... didn't even get 1x cpu util :P |
| 05:37.29 | raster | the thing that is behind openembedded's repo stuff |
| 05:37.40 | *** join/#openmoko tholin (n=tholin@85.8.6.155.se.wasadata.net) |
| 05:37.54 | raster | mtn: 26.0 M | 2.0 M | 10,473/24,100 | 2,584/5,962 |
| 05:38.03 | raster | itsd been going for an hour |
| 05:38.07 | raster | just gettign updates |
| 05:40.12 | daMaestro | does anyone use qemu-neo1973 (to be more general) |
| 05:40.13 | daMaestro | ? |
| 05:43.30 | happycube | i just spun it up but screwed up calibration ;) |
| 05:43.41 | happycube | is there a way using the 'buttons' to force a recal? |
| 05:45.18 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Games]] |
| 05:45.49 | Sup3rkiddo | happycube, just curious how did you screw up? |
| 05:47.28 | happycube | i clicked on the qemu to change focus during calibration |
| 05:48.13 | Sup3rkiddo | happycube, try reflashing |
| 05:49.11 | happycube | ok |
| 05:50.50 | happycube | might be good to have a press+hold to force a recalibration |
| 05:51.12 | happycube | maybe something that could bring up a system menu ala c+a+d on winnt? |
| 05:52.52 | daMaestro | soooo.. how do i use qemu-neo1973 |
| 05:52.57 | daMaestro | ;-) |
| 05:53.13 | happycube | i used the mokomakefile instructions |
| 05:53.24 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, you got the build ready, using the mokomakefile is the easiest way to go |
| 05:53.42 | daMaestro | Sup3rkiddo, http://rafb.net/p/PV5PGI60.html |
| 05:53.45 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 05:53.46 | daMaestro | Sup3rkiddo, i packaged it up |
| 05:54.07 | daMaestro | Sup3rkiddo, just want to test it before i submit it to the fedora build system (for review/inclusion in the distro) |
| 05:54.15 | happycube | i used make build-qemu, make flash-qemu-local, then make run-qemu (with x forwarded to laptop) |
| 05:55.14 | daMaestro | yeah.. well i'm trying to make that *very* easy for fedora users |
| 05:55.27 | daMaestro | so i can poke our dev community more about working on openmoko |
| 05:55.43 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, nice... |
| 05:56.01 | daMaestro | i just have no idea how to run it ;-) |
| 05:56.01 | daMaestro | lol |
| 05:56.20 | daMaestro | i guess i need to read the makefiles |
| 05:56.24 | happycube | it'd be pretty easy to package up what you need to run openmoko, but for development more's needed |
| 05:56.25 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, heh, how about reflashing the image and stuff |
| 05:56.36 | happycube | you're basically building an entire distro - by necessity - inside your native one |
| 05:56.56 | Sup3rkiddo | and it takes 20 hours in my box |
| 05:57.06 | happycube | what do you have? |
| 05:57.14 | Sup3rkiddo | amd athlon xp |
| 05:57.14 | daMaestro | Sup3rkiddo, happycube and the goal of a binary is that it is *prebuilt* |
| 05:57.22 | daMaestro | so you just yum install xyz... and you are off |
| 05:58.22 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, you got the qemu thingy built, but where is the flashed image (did i get the term right?) |
| 05:58.32 | Sup3rkiddo | openmoko.bin and stuff |
| 05:58.38 | daMaestro | ahhh.... yes i need to generate those too |
| 05:58.58 | daMaestro | qemu-neo1973-firmware ? |
| 05:59.00 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, i suggest you take a look at the makefile, then you are on |
| 05:59.09 | daMaestro | qemu-neo1973-image .. i dunno |
| 05:59.11 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, je suis un n00b |
| 05:59.22 | daMaestro | give me a moment ... |
| 05:59.46 | daMaestro | i'll throw it at my build sys... |
| 05:59.47 | *** part/#openmoko epps (i=epps@rock.hard-unix.com) |
| 06:01.30 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178065175.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 06:02.02 | daMaestro | hmm the package needs an update too.. 2344 is old |
| 06:03.23 | peepsalot | has anyone written lua based apps for openmoko? |
| 06:03.50 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, way old |
| 06:03.52 | Sup3rkiddo | :P |
| 06:04.19 | woglinde | hrms |
| 06:04.29 | daMaestro | hmm it seems i should just include a patched download.sh and flash.sh |
| 06:04.33 | woglinde | my moko boots only in usb-console mode |
| 06:04.44 | peepsalot | i've heard lua mentioned a lot on the lists. do y'all think this will be the standard scripting lanugage for openmoko? |
| 06:04.47 | woglinde | not networking so I cant flash |
| 06:05.16 | peepsalot | i'm reading up on it some at the moment, but never really used it before |
| 06:06.09 | peepsalot | actually considering buying a book, but i don't want to be the only one :P |
| 06:07.22 | *** join/#openmoko herbyle (n=pascal@p54A37A38.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 06:07.57 | daMaestro | maybe i should just include predownloaded images? |
| 06:09.51 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby-n800 (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 06:09.52 | daMaestro | how often do kernel, uboot, and rootfs change? |
| 06:10.09 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, often, rootfs especially |
| 06:10.31 | daMaestro | hmm then it is worth *not* including prebuilt shiet |
| 06:11.23 | Sup3rkiddo | yup, i didnt want to hurt your feelings :P |
| 06:12.51 | daMaestro | i don't want to maintain pushing out updates every day |
| 06:13.52 | Sup3rkiddo | not to mention some of the updates can break accidently |
| 06:16.05 | daMaestro | Sup3rkiddo, do you have a comment on how often download.sh and flash.sh might change? |
| 06:16.15 | daMaestro | (aka break my patches) |
| 06:16.56 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, not that often i guess, better ask someone senior about this |
| 06:19.24 | raster | a "lua based app" wouldnt be able to do much |
| 06:19.31 | raster | as u dont have any gui toolkit |
| 06:19.37 | raster | u in fact have almsot no api's to use |
| 06:19.43 | raster | you would be very limited |
| 06:19.51 | raster | generally lua is an EXTENSION language to an existign system |
| 06:19.57 | raster | that provides apis to manipulate that system |
| 06:20.00 | raster | eg web browser |
| 06:20.01 | raster | wm |
| 06:20.03 | raster | file manager |
| 06:20.09 | raster | other gui or back-end system |
| 06:20.19 | raster | that could do with the ability to customise by "programmable logic" |
| 06:24.22 | aloril | daMaestro: what about having programs that download given image to given directory and then command to run those images? |
| 06:25.01 | peepsalot | raster, i thought there are gtk bindings |
| 06:25.09 | aloril | daMaestro: I guess you have looked at Qemu page? you probably want to take scripts from there instead of MokoMakefile |
| 06:25.10 | raster | peepsalot: there might be |
| 06:25.21 | raster | but its definitely not the usual way to do things |
| 06:25.32 | raster | in general lua doesnt have a lot of bindings |
| 06:25.50 | raster | its probably an excellent replacement for a lot of shell scritps tho |
| 06:26.06 | raster | aloril: does it matter? |
| 06:26.06 | raster | :) |
| 06:26.29 | aloril | raster: for many it seems to matter (and would give extra publicity) |
| 06:26.50 | raster | openmoko is open as such |
| 06:26.54 | raster | well with the new gps unit |
| 06:27.00 | raster | so in practice its all there |
| 06:27.08 | raster | just missing some official blessing |
| 06:27.20 | aloril | raster: though I guess it doesn't make sense to seek anything like that before GPS chip communication has been reverse engineered |
| 06:27.29 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-33.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 06:27.33 | raster | doesnt matter |
| 06:27.42 | raster | thats being fixed with an open gps driver and chip |
| 06:27.48 | happycube | gta02 will have one? |
| 06:27.49 | aloril | raster: new GPS unit? |
| 06:27.52 | raster | yes |
| 06:27.54 | happycube | nice |
| 06:28.06 | raster | so as of the 02 (which is now official) its 100% open |
| 06:28.06 | aloril | how does that new GPS unit compare? |
| 06:28.12 | raster | well except the gsm core |
| 06:28.15 | peepsalot | raster, what do you think would be the simplest GUI toolkit to learn which could be compatible with openmoko? |
| 06:28.26 | raster | but thats a whole computer system on the other side of an at-command-set speaking "modem" |
| 06:28.27 | raster | :) |
| 06:28.31 | aloril | or bluetooth firmware or wifi firmware ;-) |
| 06:28.37 | raster | peepsalot: for me - EFL of course :) |
| 06:28.52 | raster | aloril: all of it is open - apparently |
| 06:28.54 | peepsalot | oh hehe, you're that guy :) |
| 06:29.04 | aloril | but those don't count, use can't upgrade any of those (bluetooth, wifi and gsm firmware) |
| 06:29.24 | aloril | yeah, this channel has lots of celebrities ;-) |
| 06:29.32 | daMaestro | aloril, basically.. i am patching download.sh and flash.sh to work standalone |
| 06:29.42 | peepsalot | raster, so that would be in C though? |
| 06:29.49 | raster | indeedily |
| 06:30.05 | raster | though there are now python bindings |
| 06:30.25 | raster | ruby too |
| 06:30.29 | raster | but me |
| 06:30.32 | raster | i'll stick to my c |
| 06:30.33 | raster | :) |
| 06:30.48 | *** part/#openmoko herbyle (n=pascal@p54A37A38.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 06:30.59 | aloril | raster: I mean bluetooth and wifi chipsets probably have their own flash which has closed firmware (but this is not visible or upgradable to user), all kernel side is completely GPL (no binary blobs even) |
| 06:31.19 | peepsalot | i'm just trying to find if there is something that I can create guis without a whole lot of low level programming. |
| 06:31.40 | raster | aloril: i dont know. |
| 06:31.47 | raster | see sean's "new oceans" mail |
| 06:32.07 | peepsalot | doesn't have to be the most efficient thing around, just something for rapid development of proof of concept |
| 06:32.17 | aloril | don't know about bluetooth, but I remember somebody (mickey?) saying that wifi has its own flash |
| 06:32.24 | Sup3rkiddo | peepsalot, there is python |
| 06:32.29 | raster | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-June/000013.html |
| 06:32.53 | peepsalot | so pygtk would be a good route to go? |
| 06:33.05 | raster | or phyefl |
| 06:33.05 | raster | :) |
| 06:33.12 | raster | pyefl |
| 06:33.24 | raster | but u'd have to build all of efl and the pyhton bindings for your moko |
| 06:33.32 | Sup3rkiddo | peepsalot, or pyclutter, ;P |
| 06:33.40 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 06:33.59 | peepsalot | Sup3rkiddo, what is that? |
| 06:34.34 | Sup3rkiddo | peepsalot, clutter is a new GUI toolkit, still in infancy afaik |
| 06:34.53 | Sup3rkiddo | http://www.clutter-project.org |
| 06:35.29 | Sup3rkiddo | efl is kickass too |
| 06:35.58 | raster | take your pick |
| 06:36.03 | raster | it really depends |
| 06:36.06 | raster | 1. what the app is going to do |
| 06:36.10 | raster | 2. what kidn of gui u want |
| 06:36.12 | peepsalot | too many choices |
| 06:36.12 | raster | 3. how fussy you are |
| 06:36.18 | raster | 4. what you already knwo and are used to |
| 06:36.25 | Sup3rkiddo | lol |
| 06:36.26 | raster | 5. what kind of performance u expect/want |
| 06:37.36 | peepsalot | well the prob is i don't know anything as far as guis are concerned. i have no idea where to begin |
| 06:37.47 | peepsalot | re #4 |
| 06:38.08 | raster | you want to do this on your pc/desktop? |
| 06:38.12 | raster | or openmoko? |
| 06:38.26 | peepsalot | well, i am in the openmoko channel... ;-) |
| 06:38.35 | raster | ok |
| 06:38.36 | raster | first |
| 06:38.41 | raster | i suggest u do guis on your desktop |
| 06:38.46 | raster | forget openmoko |
| 06:38.52 | raster | just learn how to create them |
| 06:38.57 | raster | how "event driven" programs work |
| 06:39.04 | raster | (i.e callbacks from your widget toolkit) |
| 06:39.09 | raster | and keep in mind: |
| 06:39.15 | raster | 1. on the moko you will have no keyboard input |
| 06:39.34 | raster | 2. you have 1 mouse button with a mous poitner than only moves when mouse button 1 is pressed |
| 06:39.43 | raster | 3. you only have 480x640 to play with - so use it wisely |
| 06:39.44 | daMaestro | gah... all this relative path shit needs to go away |
| 06:39.44 | daMaestro | lol |
| 06:40.03 | raster | other than that |
| 06:40.14 | raster | u have done most of the work then on your pc in a much easeir development environment |
| 06:40.15 | peepsalot | yeah, that was sort of my plan to just make something that runs on my comp first. but i wanted to learn something that I can apply to openmoko later without learning anotehr language/library/whatever |
| 06:40.23 | raster | "porting" to the moko should be childs play |
| 06:40.39 | raster | its the "open moko" |
| 06:40.40 | raster | its OPEN |
| 06:40.43 | peepsalot | for ex, AFAIK i wouldn't want to learn qt... |
| 06:40.46 | raster | anything can apply |
| 06:40.47 | happycube | yup... that's the beauty of moko... you can port *anything* if you want and it'll fit |
| 06:40.50 | raster | u just need to build and install it |
| 06:40.51 | raster | :) |
| 06:41.01 | happycube | wanna hack dosbox to run and write the sw in dos? you could. |
| 06:41.08 | raster | of course you need to make decisions on size and heaviness |
| 06:41.10 | happycube | *sw under dos |
| 06:41.14 | raster | for exmaple if u want to make a "kde app" |
| 06:41.20 | raster | and use al the kde apis in c++ |
| 06:41.25 | raster | you will need to port over most of kde |
| 06:41.26 | peepsalot | ohhh, dos? int 13h? |
| 06:41.28 | peepsalot | my fav |
| 06:41.30 | raster | c++ libs and utils |
| 06:41.31 | raster | etc. |
| 06:41.32 | raster | qt |
| 06:41.35 | raster | and that will get quite fat |
| 06:41.59 | happycube | i was half-joking... but you can do pretty much any paradigm that'll work on a 266/400mhz arm and 128mb ram |
| 06:42.08 | raster | so you might want to stick to somehting that will already ship (eg gtk) or something else that will likely be smal to put on anyway |
| 06:43.36 | *** join/#openmoko Linux_Galore (n=richard@60-242-20-212.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 06:44.30 | peepsalot | "you will need to port over most of kde": see that's my point, i am trying to pick the path of least resisitance. I'm not interested in poritng a bunch of crap to openmoko, i want to use what works, and only have the responsibility of writing/porting MY app. |
| 06:44.36 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 06:44.59 | raster | then for now writign it in c + gtk will be the best |
| 06:45.06 | raster | u wont have to port anything but your app |
| 06:45.33 | raster | i intend to get efl on my moko soon |
| 06:45.39 | raster | so that may be an option in future |
| 06:45.53 | raster | i've always wanted a phone i can hack the whole ui of |
| 06:45.53 | raster | :) |
| 06:46.35 | peepsalot | will the efl stuff run in matchbox et al, or will it have it's own window manager, etc? |
| 06:46.55 | happycube | :) |
| 06:47.27 | raster | it can |
| 06:47.32 | raster | u can write apps that work in any wm |
| 06:47.36 | raster | efl is just a set of libraries |
| 06:47.41 | aloril | counter_msg (last update 2007-06-30T06:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in |
| 06:47.41 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-06-30T06:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in |
| 06:47.43 | raster | to do graphics, events, widgets, etc. |
| 06:48.00 | Sup3rkiddo | has someone thought of porting nethack....it will be awesomestirrific |
| 06:48.02 | raster | enlightenment is a wm |
| 06:48.08 | raster | and i intend to replace matchbox on my neo |
| 06:49.25 | Sup3rkiddo | i really loved the way enhance used my glade files, so have a few things in mind |
| 06:49.43 | peepsalot | gtk + c just seems like a PITA to write though |
| 06:49.57 | raster | Sup3rkiddo: codewarrior is working on evolve |
| 06:50.03 | raster | its a glade clone for efl/etk |
| 06:50.11 | Sup3rkiddo | raster, cool |
| 06:50.18 | *** join/#openmoko crazeinc (n=crazeinc@ppp-71-139-24-54.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 06:50.49 | Sup3rkiddo | but i heard that you guys prefer ewl against etk |
| 06:50.57 | raster | i am agnostic |
| 06:51.02 | raster | i dont favor either side |
| 06:51.14 | raster | 2 philosophies on the same concept |
| 06:51.17 | raster | unliek gtk vs qt |
| 06:51.25 | raster | we dont pay a massive price for 2 toolkits |
| 06:51.36 | raster | because 70% of the toolkit is shared within efl |
| 06:51.39 | raster | unlike qt/gtk |
| 06:51.49 | Sup3rkiddo | yeah, gtk guys will find etk a breeze... |
| 06:52.01 | raster | that is the strength of etk |
| 06:52.05 | aloril | hmm... surprising that nethack is not listed at: http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages |
| 06:52.11 | raster | ewl has a different view of the world and is trying to be cleaner |
| 06:52.17 | peepsalot | raster, how is the porting of efl comaing along? |
| 06:52.20 | peepsalot | coming |
| 06:52.38 | raster | peepsalot: dunno- should just be a "compile the shit" effort |
| 06:52.44 | raster | its sitting on my n800 |
| 06:52.47 | *** part/#openmoko crazeinc (n=crazeinc@ppp-71-139-24-54.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 06:52.52 | raster | http://www.rasterman.com/ |
| 06:53.00 | raster | http://www.rasterman.com/files/e17-n800-1.jpg |
| 06:53.04 | raster | http://www.rasterman.com/files/e17-n800-2.jpg |
| 06:53.09 | raster | http://www.rasterman.com/files/e17-n800-3.jpg |
| 06:53.33 | raster | it was as easy as "make" |
| 06:53.36 | raster | done |
| 06:53.36 | happycube | :) |
| 06:53.37 | raster | built |
| 06:53.49 | happycube | i wonder what it'll take to get n770 running oe (and angstrom) |
| 06:53.51 | raster | openmoko uses openembedded |
| 06:53.58 | raster | whihc is a bit trickier than scratchbox for development |
| 06:54.02 | happycube | i'm going on vacation and i got a 770 from woot i can brick ;) |
| 06:54.05 | raster | but in principle there should be no problems |
| 06:54.26 | Sup3rkiddo | raster, i take it that the current builds have all that icons as well? |
| 06:54.52 | raster | which icons? |
| 06:54.55 | raster | desktop? |
| 06:55.09 | Sup3rkiddo | raster, yup |
| 06:55.15 | raster | yerah |
| 06:55.23 | raster | i enabled the filemanager desktop icons a few weeks back |
| 06:55.29 | raster | was working on it |
| 06:55.34 | Sup3rkiddo | aw... |
| 06:55.35 | raster | filemanager kind of works atm |
| 06:56.32 | daMaestro | nice.. i've made good progress |
| 06:57.08 | aloril | raster: I assume that your Neo1973 will soon have fluid interface? ;-) |
| 06:57.18 | raster | fluid? |
| 06:57.38 | aloril | raster: fast GUI |
| 06:57.42 | raster | ooh |
| 06:57.44 | raster | well |
| 06:57.47 | raster | i guess so |
| 06:57.49 | daMaestro | so, how long does qemu-neo1973-img create -b $^ -f qcow2 $@ normally take? |
| 06:57.52 | raster | i need to do some work on e |
| 06:57.58 | raster | so it will always maximise windfows |
| 06:57.59 | raster | for example |
| 06:58.04 | daMaestro | it seems to be using 100% of one of my cores... so 3.2GHz x86_64 |
| 06:58.18 | raster | daMaestro: took a few minutes |
| 06:58.55 | daMaestro | this patch is going to be nasty... i delete a lot of stuff |
| 06:58.56 | daMaestro | lol |
| 06:59.43 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 07:01.20 | daMaestro | http://dev.damaestro.us/openmoko-scripts.patch |
| 07:01.55 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@222-155-222-183.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 07:02.35 | daMaestro | grrr |
| 07:02.37 | daMaestro | ./flash.sh: line 96: 30482 Terminated $qemu -mtdblock "$flash_base" -kernel "$1" -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null 0<&0 |
| 07:02.37 | daMaestro | U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up. |
| 07:03.25 | Sup3rkiddo | daMaestro, try updating your build |
| 07:04.25 | *** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) |
| 07:06.07 | daMaestro | darn.. was kinda hoping i could make these scripts solid and then update the package |
| 07:06.11 | daMaestro | anywho.... doing so now |
| 07:06.17 | peepsalot | i want to write a touch-pad-lock program. a lock for the touch screen that emulates a combination lock |
| 07:07.09 | Sup3rkiddo | peepsalot, use the mokolibs for the GUI then, for consistency |
| 07:07.52 | peepsalot | are mokolibs written yet? |
| 07:08.43 | Sup3rkiddo | peepsalot, yeah sort of they are in trunk/target/OM-2007 |
| 07:10.34 | peepsalot | is there any proper documentation for them? |
| 07:11.27 | Sup3rkiddo | peepsalot, no not yet, check the apps that use the code, like openmoko-dialer for instance |
| 07:12.00 | peepsalot | does the finger wheel work? |
| 07:12.30 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 07:15.28 | Linux_Galore | YO YO fellow moko nuts |
| 07:16.00 | Linux_Galore | try translate that into Japanese muawahahaha |
| 07:16.32 | aloril | Sean Moss-Pultz: "OpenMoko is the anti-iPhone." http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2152759,00.asp |
| 07:17.10 | Sup3rkiddo | Linux_Galore, you just gave me an idea to start my own line of junk snacks named moko nuts |
| 07:17.20 | Linux_Galore | I dont think it is wise to promote a negative as a positive to be honest |
| 07:17.34 | Linux_Galore | Sup3rkiddo: lol |
| 07:17.49 | raster | こんいちは私のモコナツ |
| 07:17.52 | raster | :) |
| 07:17.52 | Linux_Galore | moko nuts for when you need some serious YO! |
| 07:18.36 | Sup3rkiddo | or the ultimate hackz0r food...satisfies all your carb requirements |
| 07:19.03 | Linux_Galore | clogs your arteries and makes your heart bigger as you code |
| 07:19.17 | Sup3rkiddo | it will be shaped just like the neo, and will be frosted..mmm |
| 07:19.41 | Linux_Galore | I just updated to Gutsy release 2 |
| 07:20.05 | Sup3rkiddo | and we will get sean and harald to star in the ads :P |
| 07:20.09 | Linux_Galore | because my hardisk went to were all dead hardisks go, binary heaven |
| 07:20.18 | Linux_Galore | heh |
| 07:21.09 | Sup3rkiddo | the first revolution to free your junk food is here |
| 07:21.21 | Linux_Galore | FOSS snacks |
| 07:22.38 | Linux_Galore | FOSS Snacks, because we beleive in the four freedoms of food |
| 07:23.28 | Linux_Galore | I must admin moko nuts does roll off the tongue |
| 07:23.33 | Linux_Galore | admit* |
| 07:23.46 | Sup3rkiddo | gah, you made me hungry |
| 07:24.12 | Linux_Galore | I aim to please |
| 07:24.36 | Linux_Galore | Moko nuts "because they roll of the tongue" |
| 07:24.39 | Sup3rkiddo | yeah and theres nothing to eat in my house |
| 07:24.53 | Sup3rkiddo | thats nice |
| 07:25.00 | Sup3rkiddo | ..and clog your butt" |
| 07:25.04 | Linux_Galore | lol |
| 07:26.05 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@cpe-70-116-144-238.houston.res.rr.com) |
| 07:26.17 | Linux_Galore | it true, last time I ate 1/2 Kg of chashews and I swear it felt like passing a brick 3 hours later |
| 07:26.29 | Sup3rkiddo | ewww |
| 07:26.56 | Linux_Galore | my dad said I forgot to drink the magic ingredient "beer" |
| 07:26.59 | aloril | translation by google of what raster said (as Japanese): It is dense, it is to be, as for the [chi] my [mokonatsu] |
| 07:27.11 | Kero | Linux_Galore: :) |
| 07:27.25 | aloril | as Chinese: This is us!! The private Sentence コ ナ ツ |
| 07:27.26 | aloril | ;-) |
| 07:27.45 | Linux_Galore | heh |
| 07:28.04 | *** join/#openmoko gyaresu (n=gyaresu@ppp121-44-217-101.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net) |
| 07:28.30 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
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| 07:38.13 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 07:44.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Introduction]] [[FAQ]] [[IPhone]] |
| 07:48.31 | *** join/#openmoko jeddy3 (n=data@h-193-67.A148.cust.bahnhof.se) |
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| 07:59.22 | Linux_Galore | juri_: dont, its too resourced starved and the display isnt very clear, get a N800 |
| 07:59.40 | Linux_Galore | unless the n700 is being sold for like $50 |
| 07:59.47 | Linux_Galore | N770* |
| 08:00.04 | *** join/#openmoko mosno (n=bmc@c220-237-40-126.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au) |
| 08:00.26 | daMaestro | mosno, hello ;-) |
| 08:00.36 | juri_ | linux: $140. worth it. |
| 08:00.53 | daMaestro | anyone know a carrier that would support the openmoko in AU? |
| 08:00.56 | mosno | daMaestro: heya |
| 08:00.59 | *** join/#openmoko xkr47 (i=xkr47@a88-114-159-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 08:00.59 | juri_ | its a dev platform anyways, i'm not going to really be using it. |
| 08:01.52 | rwhitby | daMaestro: works for me on Vodaphone right now. I expect it will work on any of the 2G carriers. |
| 08:02.01 | mosno | rwhitby: sweet, i'm with optus |
| 08:02.10 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 08:02.36 | daMaestro | mosno, you can use the openmoko |
| 08:02.37 | rwhitby | there is no whitelisting of SIMs on GSM networks in Australia as far as I know. 3G is a different story. |
| 08:02.37 | daMaestro | !! |
| 08:02.49 | daMaestro | mosno, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optus |
| 08:03.10 | daMaestro | GSM/GPRS network in all states* |
| 08:03.15 | Linux_Galore | juri_: yeah $140 is pretty cheap |
| 08:03.30 | mosno | daMaestro: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jldQ7Z-LawQ |
| 08:03.30 | aloril | mosno: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 08:03.32 | happycube | what's going on with 3g? |
| 08:03.33 | mosno | :P |
| 08:03.36 | mosno | ps. thanks |
| 08:03.49 | Linux_Galore | happycube: chipsets |
| 08:03.54 | mosno | daMaestro: dont watch it, just listen |
| 08:03.57 | daMaestro | lol |
| 08:03.58 | aloril | hehe, funny faq answer ;-) |
| 08:04.08 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host86-152-200-234.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 08:04.52 | Linux_Galore | happycube: or a better answer is wait till early 08 for the GTA02 and see what happens |
| 08:05.18 | daMaestro | /usr/bin/openmoko-flash: line 96: 4292 Terminated $qemu -mtdblock "$flash_base" -kernel "$1" -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null 0<&0 |
| 08:05.18 | daMaestro | U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up. |
| 08:05.29 | daMaestro | ok... failed again with the updated trunk |
| 08:06.51 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@xdsl-87-78-89-239.netcologne.de) |
| 08:07.25 | Linux_Galore | Good ol David Bowie song |
| 08:08.39 | daMaestro | qemu-neo1973-system-arm -M neo -m 130 -mtdblock openmoko-flash.base -kernel u-boot-gta01bv4-r10_9912121f7ed804ea58fd62f3f230b5dcfc357d88_0_2270.bin -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null |
| 08:08.43 | daMaestro | that is what it is running |
| 08:11.00 | daMaestro | any ideas? |
| 08:11.20 | Hopscotch | good morning |
| 08:15.13 | *** join/#openmoko wookieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k967.webspeed.dk) |
| 08:15.23 | *** join/#openmoko wehttamb (n=wehttamb@CPE-124-184-184-163.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
| 08:21.03 | daMaestro | http://rafb.net/p/UE4o9B25.html anyone know if there is something wrong here? |
| 08:21.47 | daMaestro | should i just give the flash longer then 300 seconds? |
| 08:26.50 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 08:29.04 | *** join/#openmoko zell1983 (n=zell1983@host52-123-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 08:32.25 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@unaffiliated/ninher) |
| 08:33.16 | mosno | Linux_Galore: yup, that's the one |
| 08:33.51 | mosno | Linux_Galore: sometimes puts me in a mood such that listening to it then returning to regular commercial radio causes panic attacks :) |
| 08:34.53 | *** join/#openmoko ravan (n=ravan@202.140.50.194) |
| 08:36.47 | Linux_Galore | mosno: I havent listened to comercial music radio now in over two yeahs, I mainly listen to podcasts or my weird eclectic music collection |
| 08:36.56 | Linux_Galore | years* |
| 08:37.51 | Agrajag- | Linux_Galore: listen to triplej! |
| 08:38.32 | Agrajag- | abc/triplej have really good podcasts too |
| 08:38.55 | *** join/#openmoko phax` (n=o@bzq-82-81-21-164.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 08:40.28 | Linux_Galore | Agrajag-: they are boring too |
| 08:41.34 | Linux_Galore | Agrajag-: the only thing I listen to from JJJ is Dr Karls podcast from Thursday morning |
| 08:42.09 | Agrajag- | heh yeah that's a good one |
| 08:42.47 | Linux_Galore | I listen to a few BBC and ABC radio podcasts |
| 08:43.01 | Linux_Galore | I do lie I listen to two JJJ podcasts |
| 08:44.04 | Linux_Galore | I also listen to Sunday Night Safran, he always drags in the weirdos |
| 08:44.10 | daMaestro | ok.. well i have given qemu-neo1973-system-arm -M neo -m 130 -mtdblock openmoko-flash.base -kernel u-boot-gta01bv4-r10_9912121f7ed804ea58fd62f3f230b5dcfc357d88_0_2270.bin -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null 600 seconds.. and it still failed |
| 08:44.55 | daMaestro | err * timed out * |
| 08:48.37 | daMaestro | grrr i don't want to let this beat me |
| 08:48.38 | daMaestro | lol |
| 08:49.01 | daMaestro | i am slightly distracted.. however: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=4446 |
| 08:49.09 | mosno | safran rocks |
| 08:49.23 | mosno | Linux_Galore: which eclectic stuff |
| 08:51.23 | *** join/#openmoko Imitation (n=imitatio@W324a.w.pppool.de) |
| 08:51.45 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=luitvd@beigetower/luitvd) |
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| 08:57.56 | Linux_Galore | mosno: well I have a mix of classical Russian composers and then some Jaz 1920-50's and 60's-90's rock then I may go nuts and listen to japanese Techno Punk |
| 08:58.56 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 08:59.09 | Linux_Galore | good example of japanese punk -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g80kfYYHHrc |
| 08:59.44 | empty_mind | latest mail in my spam box reads "You won an openmoko phone " [-) |
| 09:00.16 | Kero | no way! |
| 09:00.40 | Linux_Galore | lol |
| 09:01.57 | kiney_ | counter |
| 09:01.57 | aloril | (last update 2007-06-30T06:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 02:58:02 (9.124±1.0 days) (1651;242) |
| 09:02.04 | Linux_Galore | empty_mind: think about it, if you were Apple and trying to make the openmoko disapear from the web wouldnt making the word "openmoko" a spam trigger be wise heh |
| 09:02.21 | empty_mind | well it happened |
| 09:03.14 | empty_mind | i am yet to receive iphone spam though |
| 09:03.24 | Linux_Galore | I ordered the whole Polysic collection on line, god i must be nuts |
| 09:03.25 | buz | why would apple care |
| 09:03.26 | buz | the iphone target market basically doesnt care about neo |
| 09:03.27 | empty_mind | anyone tried iphone btw ? |
| 09:04.30 | Linux_Galore | empty_mind: pretty hard considering its "not on sale yet" |
| 09:05.32 | Linux_Galore | true, if I had a hankering to pick a phone that competes with the iPhone I would point at some of the new HTC phones |
| 09:06.21 | empty_mind | Linux_Galore, then you should see this http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/29/apple-iphone-vs-lg-prada-separated-at-birth-part-2/ |
| 09:06.43 | empty_mind | Linux_Galore, wasnt iphone going to be on sale from 29th june ? |
| 09:06.48 | Linux_Galore | htc mobile demo -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8PMcvYTZo |
| 09:07.16 | Linux_Galore | empty_mind: yeah but LG Prada is actually an older pre 3G phone |
| 09:07.35 | Linux_Galore | empty_mind: I would wait for what LG throw out later this year |
| 09:08.16 | empty_mind | ouch! htc is sexy |
| 09:08.24 | Linux_Galore | I must admit the HTC mobile/pda is pretty amazing, to be honest it snots on the iPhone |
| 09:08.27 | mosno | empty_mind: i like to throw mobile phones at trolls |
| 09:08.48 | empty_mind | mosno, mind throwing one on me ? |
| 09:08.59 | mosno | empty_mind: oh, are you a troll? |
| 09:09.15 | Linux_Galore | empty_mind: like how it changes menus (HTC phone) |
| 09:09.36 | empty_mind | mosno, i would become one, if you are willing to throw phone |
| 09:09.44 | empty_mind | Linux_Galore, yup |
| 09:09.58 | *** part/#openmoko Freed (n=jecsar@mac33-2-82-225-98-209.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 09:10.39 | Linux_Galore | empty_mind: the way the menu system works though as you see in the video isnt too good though |
| 09:10.48 | Linux_Galore | ie the sms section |
| 09:11.23 | Linux_Galore | s/works though/works/ |
| 09:12.03 | empty_mind | Linux_Galore, provided i use the lowest and cheapest mobile phoen available in India, any navigation is good for me |
| 09:12.23 | *** join/#openmoko crackfiend (n=chatzill@adsl-69-225-132-55.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 09:13.15 | Linux_Galore | empty_mind: heh, Im lucky the company pays for my toys |
| 09:13.21 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@ppp-82-135-81-239.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 09:14.19 | empty_mind | Linux_Galore, i used to have moto linux phone. Then i got bored of these toys |
| 09:15.16 | phax` | 'toys' ? It's quite cool to me :) |
| 09:20.05 | *** join/#openmoko pH5 (n=ph5@p5485EB4E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 09:21.40 | *** join/#openmoko vaiursch (n=erwin@84-72-190-106.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 09:22.07 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 09:25.33 | buz | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5522906532.html mhh mobilephone with lan and ata port? |
| 09:25.37 | buz | that'd be neat ;) |
| 09:26.22 | ynezz | i'd prefer 512/512 ram/flash instead :p |
| 09:26.35 | phax` | I'd prefer both (; |
| 09:26.48 | ynezz | why ata? |
| 09:27.18 | buz | mhh make it a real computer in your pocket ;) |
| 09:27.28 | buz | the lan is more useful than the ata i guess |
| 09:27.29 | phax` | Hahaha :) |
| 09:27.42 | ynezz | but ethernet connector is big |
| 09:27.55 | buz | i suppose you could have some small scale adapter for it |
| 09:27.57 | ynezz | and carrying another cable is useless |
| 09:28.14 | ynezz | another thing I'll lost in 2 days :p |
| 09:28.47 | buz | you could then use gta02 as access point lol |
| 09:28.54 | ynezz | :) |
| 09:28.58 | daMaestro | ok.. well i just let the flash run for 30 minutes.. and it just sat there |
| 09:29.00 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@ppp-82-135-77-194.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 09:29.09 | daMaestro | so if any of you openmoko gurus could help me that would be awesome: |
| 09:29.11 | daMaestro | http://dev.damaestro.us/openmoko/ |
| 09:29.54 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@ppp-82-135-77-194.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 09:31.48 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@ppp-82-135-77-194.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
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| 09:36.20 | empty_mind_ | buz, good phone |
| 09:36.39 | buz | ? |
| 09:37.03 | empty_mind_ | buz, the linuxdevices link you posted |
| 09:37.16 | buz | i dont think it's a phone? |
| 09:40.29 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 09:40.45 | PBeck | hi |
| 09:40.55 | PBeck | counter |
| 09:40.56 | aloril | (last update 2007-06-30T06:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 02:19:03 (9.097±1.0 days) (1652;242) |
| 09:40.57 | PBeck | :D |
| 09:41.07 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 09:42.15 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 09:43.01 | cdbot2 | * * OM Bug 622 has been created by yoyo(AT)ghost.pl |
| 09:43.02 | cdbot2 | * * mtd-utils-native |
| 09:43.03 | cdbot2 | * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=622 |
| 09:44.34 | *** join/#openmoko slomo (n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo) |
| 09:48.15 | *** join/#openmoko webjames (n=james@82-46-37-48.cable.ubr01.nail.blueyonder.co.uk) |
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| 09:57.28 | PBeck | give it informationen how much the GTA_02 cost in euro? |
| 09:57.58 | webjames | !google 450 usd in eur |
| 09:57.58 | cdbot2 | 450 U.S. dollars = 334.373607 Euros |
| 09:59.21 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@5ac62f33.bb.sky.com) |
| 09:59.51 | Basheri | yeap |
| 10:00.29 | Basheri | but still, over seas dollar==euro basically |
| 10:05.34 | *** join/#openmoko miip (n=miip@p54A568A8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:05.43 | PBeck | webjames: i hope :D |
| 10:05.59 | PBeck | but i think Basheri is right :/ |
| 10:08.53 | Basheri | i hope i'm wrong =) |
| 10:09.04 | PBeck | 335 euro would be a great price ;) cheaper as my actually phone w800i ^^ |
| 10:09.19 | PBeck | Basheri: yes of course ;) |
| 10:10.25 | *** join/#openmoko thomasg__ (n=thomasg@p57AFCABA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:10.43 | Basheri | yeap, 335 would be awesome, since i'm prepared to pay over 100 euros more |
| 10:13.26 | *** join/#openmoko jdav (n=james@d142-179-3-51.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 10:15.13 | PBeck | Basheri: my first price informationen was 350 Dollar = 350 euro |
| 10:15.45 | Basheri | as expected |
| 10:15.46 | *** join/#openmoko WSX (i=jan@noc.xs26.net) |
| 10:15.55 | PBeck | i hope that the price will be convert to euro. So is the phone almost cheap to other phones on the market |
| 10:16.33 | PBeck | up to 400 euro is almost normal ;) |
| 10:17.43 | *** join/#openmoko lrg|gone (n=liam@lrg2.demon.co.uk) |
| 10:17.46 | madwoota | !g 300 usd in eur |
| 10:17.48 | cdbot2 | 300 U.S. dollars = 222.915738 Euros |
| 10:27.33 | LuitvD | :) |
| 10:28.03 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 10:28.07 | LuitvD | (guess that's not really possible...) |
| 10:29.53 | Viko | If they are shipping from germany or something :\ |
| 10:31.02 | Viko | Saying 200$ = 200 would be crazy, a 25% increase in price... |
| 10:31.16 | Basheri | I really hope that the way to get neo doesn't favor people in the US |
| 10:31.21 | *** join/#openmoko bluefir (n=dave@milligan.bluefir.org) |
| 10:32.16 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=huhh@dsl54009FCD.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 10:34.57 | PBeck | LuitvD: that would be great :p |
| 10:35.10 | Viko | The Neo will probably be cheaper than an K800i or Nokia E61 in norway. |
| 10:35.23 | Basheri | :O |
| 10:35.41 | drath | LuitvD: how much is vat in .nl? |
| 10:35.49 | *** join/#openmoko woglinde (i=woglinde@e178107174.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 10:36.18 | rwhitby | Basheri: considering it's being manufactured in China, and the company making it is in Taiwan, and the people writing the software are in Germany, I doubt that shipping it will favour the US. |
| 10:36.55 | Basheri | rwhitby: great =) |
| 10:37.30 | rwhitby | Unlike the iPhone of course ;-) |
| 10:38.22 | *** join/#openmoko gyaresu (n=gyaresu@ppp121-44-217-101.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net) |
| 10:39.23 | Basheri | yeap |
| 10:40.16 | Vegar | Viko: depends on how nice the customs are |
| 10:40.33 | Basheri | but in the usa, you have to get that fucking contract with iphone... |
| 10:41.02 | Basheri | Depend on where they ship the product |
| 10:41.04 | rwhitby | there's really no need for that kind of language ... |
| 10:41.20 | Basheri | :O |
| 10:41.30 | Basheri | ok sorry :DDD |
| 10:41.45 | Basheri | hmm, this is new to me :P |
| 10:45.33 | Viko | Vegar: I included moms :) |
| 10:45.52 | Basheri | didn't know that swearing is a forbidden thing |
| 10:45.54 | Vegar | I always forget about moms |
| 10:46.31 | Vegar | So including mva (25%): 3,375 NOK |
| 10:47.09 | Viko | in october yes. |
| 10:48.09 | *** join/#openmoko wehttamb (n=wehttamb@CPE-124-184-184-163.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
| 10:51.07 | aloril | Basheri: more like impolite |
| 10:51.54 | Basheri | aloril: oh :O great fill words =) |
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| 11:31.32 | fophillips | I'm having some trouble with the MokoMakeFile. When it gets to compiling coreutils it defines 'futimens', but it is already defined as something else in /usr/include/sys/stat.h |
| 11:32.47 | *** join/#openmoko lengau (n=lengau@c-76-22-213-228.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
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| 11:36.18 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: New Oceans and 1 other mails |
| 11:37.37 | Linux_Galore | wtf, lol all my code just became GPLv3 |
| 11:37.54 | Linux_Galore | now I will have to sue myself |
| 11:38.06 | Linux_Galore | :-P |
| 11:44.17 | Linux_Galore | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6228340866.html |
| 11:44.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
| 11:57.18 | aloril | counter_msg (last update 2007-06-30T11:55) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in |
| 11:57.18 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-06-30T11:55) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in |
| 11:57.42 | aloril | ^ From Taiwan: First week in OpenMoko |
| 11:58.06 | aloril | (or direct link: http://jouston.no-ip.com/archives/000225.html ) |
| 11:58.44 | Basheri | yeh, i had dependency problems (monotone depended on older packages than the ones found from gutsy's repos, but i solved that by manually compiling the newest version of monotone) |
| 12:00.09 | aloril | well.. from today onward everything that I have copyright over and is licensed under GPL is now dual licensed GPL2, GPL3 (or later) |
| 12:00.50 | *** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins) |
| 12:01.38 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Yes, there's GPS (Re: What, no GPS?) and 1 other mails |
| 12:02.45 | *** join/#openmoko faded515 (n=faded515@cpc3-hatf4-0-0-cust973.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 12:03.04 | aloril | looks like almost apparent confirmation of later 3G models ;-) |
| 12:03.47 | Basheri | \o/ |
| 12:04.19 | buz | wow sean is posting to the list |
| 12:04.24 | aloril | well.. it was excepted, so no real surprise ;-) |
| 12:04.47 | Linux_Galore | YAY! |
| 12:05.24 | buz | expected |
| 12:05.33 | buz | excepted would be uhm bad |
| 12:05.48 | Basheri | aloril: yeh, but confirmations are always great |
| 12:06.56 | aloril | well, it was 'confirmed' by another OpenMoko person month ago (as you can see from counter page) |
| 12:06.58 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Minor correction |
| 12:07.58 | aloril | he is catching up on mail |
| 12:10.58 | *** join/#openmoko LaF0rge (n=laforge@berligate.hmw-consulting.de) |
| 12:12.38 | woglinde | hi laforge |
| 12:13.09 | summatusmentis | which list is this? |
| 12:15.30 | SpeedEvil | community |
| 12:15.32 | thomasg__ | hi harald |
| 12:15.37 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 12:15.45 | SpeedEvil | Nothing new. |
| 12:16.25 | woglinde | hm can some with a moko-toolchain test, if ipcs from utils-linux works? |
| 12:16.34 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: well.... I'm pretty new to reading lists, and am not signed up for any, just reading archives |
| 12:17.35 | aloril | summatusmentis: list was mentioned: "(script) openmoko-community..." ;-) |
| 12:17.50 | aloril | anyway, no real new info there |
| 12:18.22 | summatusmentis | aloril: lol, I guess it was... thanks |
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| 12:28.50 | ravan | does perl-native compilation fail for anyone else? |
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| 12:42.39 | SpeedEvil | Hardware questions: Is the LCD interface on the Neo a simple parallel one, 18 or 24 bit wide, with some clocks? Or is it more complex. And is 'slow mode' on the CPU implemented? |
| 12:43.15 | SpeedEvil | I'm wondering about gluing a PSP display on. |
| 12:45.14 | Plasma_GR | does psp have touchscreen? |
| 12:45.20 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 12:45.29 | SpeedEvil | It'd also need to have additional controls. |
| 12:45.45 | *** join/#openmoko madewokherd (n=urk@c-24-3-53-185.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 12:46.44 | Plasma_GR | well im sure you can attach a psp as an external monitor trhough the usb plus some power or using the i2c :/ (you shouldn't consider my thoughts that much heh) |
| 12:47.40 | SpeedEvil | Umm - no. |
| 12:48.02 | Plasma_GR | *through |
| 12:48.07 | ewon | man, superwaba works |
| 12:48.29 | zell1983 | cool |
| 12:48.51 | SpeedEvil | Basically. The PSP display is around $50 |
| 12:48.57 | SpeedEvil | (ebay) |
| 12:49.25 | buz | uhm but no touchscreen? |
| 12:49.27 | SpeedEvil | Or $100 for the actual brand-name one from sharp. |
| 12:49.43 | SpeedEvil | I'm also idly wondering about SAW. |
| 12:49.58 | buz | what good would it do? |
| 12:50.17 | buz | attaching the psp display |
| 12:50.20 | SpeedEvil | (surface accoustic wave - to make it act as a touchscreen) |
| 12:50.47 | SpeedEvil | Basically, it's not so much for use as a phone. |
| 12:50.58 | buz | if you want a bigger screen, i'd look for maybe the one in the giant htc thing |
| 12:51.05 | buz | 5" vga iirc |
| 12:51.18 | SpeedEvil | More for - for example - a car computer panel. |
| 12:52.44 | buz | http://cgi.ebay.com/I028-LCD-Screen-Display-for-HTC-Universal-Dopod-900_W0QQitemZ260134068995QQihZ016QQcategoryZ39401QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem |
| 12:52.47 | buz | but it's pricey |
| 12:52.59 | Plasma_GR | i want to mess with things like that, what would you advice me to start from? |
| 12:53.08 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - the advantage of this thing would be it's cheap. |
| 12:53.17 | SpeedEvil | If you can manufacture the cables. |
| 12:53.23 | SpeedEvil | Like what? |
| 12:54.24 | buz | i think there's better options for car pc than neo |
| 12:54.30 | SpeedEvil | Perhaps. |
| 12:54.40 | *** join/#openmoko ScaredyCat (n=ScaredyC@ACD1ECB7.ipt.aol.com) |
| 12:55.01 | SpeedEvil | It's more based on the fact that it's cheap and I have a datasheet and a soldering iron :) |
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| 12:55.32 | *** join/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.30) |
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| 12:55.56 | Plasma_GR | SpeedEvil dont you find the usb jack usefull for this job? |
| 12:56.03 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 12:56.16 | buz | http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-LOT-99-3-5-INCH-LCD-PANEL-REPLACEMENT-SCREEN-PARTS_W0QQitemZ230146682604QQihZ013QQcategoryZ41343QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
| 12:56.20 | SpeedEvil | The LCD can (possibly) be directly connected, with a trivial cable. |
| 12:56.27 | buz | here, 99 tries for soldering ;) |
| 12:56.28 | Plasma_GR | oh ok |
| 12:56.49 | SpeedEvil | The USB jack is USB 1.1, you can't run any commodity 'USB-VGA' things |
| 12:57.08 | buz | is gta-02 getting usb2 host? |
| 12:57.13 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 12:57.27 | buz | :(( |
| 12:57.30 | Plasma_GR | usb2 needs power right? |
| 12:57.38 | SpeedEvil | Not that. |
| 12:57.49 | SpeedEvil | USB2 tends not to be low power though. |
| 12:58.23 | SpeedEvil | From memory - for example. |
| 12:58.46 | SpeedEvil | A USB stick I have, I measured when it was in USB2 mode to take 50% more power than in 1.1 mode |
| 13:01.12 | thomasg__ | SpeedEvil, but it is as fast, that you can save much energy :) |
| 13:01.28 | ScaredyCat | why is power an issue... |
| 13:01.32 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081E1F4.dip.t-dialin.net) |
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| 13:01.40 | ScaredyCat | if it's plugged in via us it can charge |
| 13:01.46 | ScaredyCat | usb |
| 13:02.48 | SpeedEvil | Because it's more power consuming to have a USB2 chipset. |
| 13:03.02 | SpeedEvil | Also, more chip area, and hence more expense. |
| 13:03.12 | ScaredyCat | only when it's on/active, surely |
| 13:03.25 | SpeedEvil | Plus, it's not in the processors that are reasonable candidates. |
| 13:03.53 | SpeedEvil | yes, only when it's active - the extra cost is still an issue though. |
| 13:03.53 | ScaredyCat | ya |
| 13:05.33 | *** join/#openmoko buz (n=buz@84-73-66-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 13:05.48 | thomasg__ | SpeedEvil, well, for phase3 or so they maybe want to use Arm11 Cortex A8, that would be cool :) |
| 13:06.04 | buz | says who |
| 13:06.15 | thomasg__ | it's to find in the wiki |
| 13:06.19 | SpeedEvil | It would be nice to have USB2 if it's not too expensive. |
| 13:06.36 | SpeedEvil | (power, cost) |
| 13:07.13 | mjr | her |
| 13:07.38 | SpeedEvil | That's because - generally - they implement the USB2 bit with a seperate chip. |
| 13:08.01 | SpeedEvil | The processor they probably use has 1.1 built in - and that is free. |
| 13:08.09 | balrog-kun | USB1 is pretty fast already |
| 13:08.13 | mjr | yeah, I figured that that would be the case |
| 13:08.21 | SpeedEvil | Then you can get chips which are basically USB2 -> SD card interfaces |
| 13:08.27 | SpeedEvil | and you wire that in parallel. |
| 13:08.36 | ScaredyCat | I thought we'd just eliminated power as an issue SpeedEvil |
| 13:09.09 | SpeedEvil | I'm explaining what currently happens in many portable devices. |
| 13:09.55 | SpeedEvil | Or in some cases of course, the processor doesn't have USB1.1 |
| 13:11.09 | *** join/#openmoko ciacon_ (n=ciacon@e181022120.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 13:11.54 | ewon | I hooked a char-lcd to the GPIO pins on a soekris |
| 13:11.58 | ewon | minimal soldering |
| 13:14.35 | aloril | thomasg__: that is rumor/guess which very well could turn out to be wrong |
| 13:15.05 | thomasg__ | aloril, of course it could |
| 13:15.17 | thomasg__ | but a cortex would be definately nice |
| 13:15.23 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 13:15.43 | thomasg__ | it would beat down the xscales :) |
| 13:16.42 | aloril | counter_msg (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in |
| 13:16.42 | aloril | aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in |
| 13:16.52 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host86-152-200-234.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 13:16.52 | aloril | (just added links to 3 Sean's mails) |
| 13:19.15 | Viko | http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-13261-When+the+Korean+GOD+awake%2C+he+gives+us...+the+Samsung+Ultra+Smart+F700.html <- I really, really wished the Neo looked like that. |
| 13:20.34 | Viko | Neo screen has three times the resolution. |
| 13:20.56 | aloril | SpeedEvil: s:2D:2D/3D accelerator: (but you know this of course) |
| 13:21.04 | Viko | (pixel amount) |
| 13:21.38 | buz | is the samsung a winmobile device? |
| 13:21.57 | buz | it looks kinda like a htc copy cat |
| 13:22.29 | summatusmentis | what is it with brown swooshes? That phone looks like it's running ubuntu or something |
| 13:22.35 | PBeck | Micro USB Connectivity Cable |
| 13:22.38 | PBeck | is this a typo? |
| 13:23.51 | drath | yeah |
| 13:24.00 | ScaredyCat | is there any info on what the order process (for 01) will be ? |
| 13:24.19 | Plasma_GR | i need that info too |
| 13:24.26 | ScaredyCat | a if it's only going to be available in the US.. |
| 13:24.35 | ScaredyCat | s/a/and/ |
| 13:24.40 | ynezz | only in .ua |
| 13:24.47 | aloril | PBeck: yes, s/Micro/Mini/ |
| 13:24.52 | PBeck | ok thanks |
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| 13:31.42 | rwhitby | ScaredyCat: why would it only be available in the US? |
| 13:33.52 | thomasg__ | yeah, I think the most developers are NOT from the states |
| 13:34.17 | *** part/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.30) |
| 13:34.29 | SpeedEvil | aloril: in what context? |
| 13:34.50 | thomasg__ | well, as long they send if from taiwan or china its no problem for me, only the packaging fee's might be a bit expensive |
| 13:35.07 | PBeck | hum gta_02 in october => Massmarkt oder only the hardware? |
| 13:35.13 | aloril | 2007-06-30 00:13:19 <SpeedEvil> galexande: Consider it. For that $150, you get accelerometers, 2D accel - which may mean better battery life as well as better video playback - a little more flash, and a faster CPU. |
| 13:35.18 | thomasg__ | hardware afaik |
| 13:35.27 | PBeck | ok |
| 13:35.39 | SpeedEvil | 2D graphic accel |
| 13:35.44 | thomasg__ | 2d AND 3d |
| 13:35.54 | SpeedEvil | It is? |
| 13:35.54 | aloril | -"- |
| 13:35.55 | thomasg__ | and mpeg4 |
| 13:36.01 | SpeedEvil | Yeah |
| 13:36.04 | thomasg__ | SpeedEvil, yes, the chip is OpenGL ES capable |
| 13:37.12 | aloril | 1.43M triangles per second, etc.. from http://www.smediatech.com/Glamo3370_DM.pdf |
| 13:37.15 | buz | doesnt mean we will have drivers |
| 13:37.24 | SpeedEvil | Fun,. |
| 13:37.27 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 13:37.28 | thomasg__ | thats the chip: http://www.smediatech.com/product3362.htm |
| 13:37.35 | thomasg__ | ah, aloril already has it, sry |
| 13:37.39 | SpeedEvil | If they do the NDA thing, then that will suck. |
| 13:37.48 | aloril | buz: from what Harald talked in Tossug video it does sound we will have drivers |
| 13:37.51 | buz | is 3362 identical to 3370 save for h264 |
| 13:37.54 | SpeedEvil | Because it means that a small team at FIC has to implement everything. |
| 13:38.46 | aloril | something like "mobile phones might have better FLOSS support for 3D in future than PC" |
| 13:38.49 | thomasg__ | mpeg4 at VGA and 30 fps! :) |
| 13:39.06 | SpeedEvil | And if we see an unimplemented feature, we can't implement it as we have no hardware docs |
| 13:39.34 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yeah, that is interesting question, NDA or no NDA ... |
| 13:39.35 | SpeedEvil | I can't see the benefit of VGA over QVGA for video on the neo. |
| 13:39.52 | buz | not until we get vga or tv out, no |
| 13:39.53 | SpeedEvil | Apart from using non-transcoded video |
| 13:39.55 | thomasg__ | SpeedEvil, well, we'll see :) |
| 13:40.00 | aloril | SpeedEvil: sure? human eye might be able to detect difference |
| 13:40.07 | thomasg__ | I also think QVGA would be ok |
| 13:40.20 | SpeedEvil | If you are in the habit of holding it at under 30cm from the eye. |
| 13:40.32 | thomasg__ | well, I am a HD-freak :) |
| 13:40.45 | thomasg__ | like small pixels and unique pixels ^^ |
| 13:40.58 | aloril | SpeedEvil: its quite small screen (in absolute size) |
| 13:41.13 | ynezz | HD is obsolete already, long live SUPER-HD and EXTRA-SUPER-HD :p |
| 13:41.23 | thomasg__ | ynezz, hehe |
| 13:41.48 | thomasg__ | well, I do not own HD-ready hardware and shit like this, my PC is enough. what I wanted to say is, that I like superb quality |
| 13:42.23 | SpeedEvil | Cut a 2.8" rectangle of the appropriate size. |
| 13:42.26 | mjr | my PC is HD-ready :] |
| 13:42.53 | SpeedEvil | Hold it up at normal distance against your HDTV screen. |
| 13:43.02 | thomasg__ | SpeedEvil, I see it like you |
| 13:43.02 | SpeedEvil | And see how little of it it covers. |
| 13:43.19 | buz | there's just NFW you need 285dpi for video |
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| 13:43.31 | buz | (and i'm the first to buy the higehst res screen i can find) |
| 13:43.31 | thomasg__ | the pixel on a normal HD-ready tv is about 20 times bigger I guess |
| 13:43.48 | aloril | my own transcription (which likely has small errors): "Definitely going to 3D and even more integration with all kinds of peripherals. It needs time but actually having quite good success in getting number of hardware manufacturers to open specification/documentation. It might even happen that Linux mobile phones might have more open graphics than most desktop systems." |
| 13:43.55 | aloril | (from http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter#Talk_by_Sean_Moss-Pultz_and_Harald_Welte_2007-06-06_.28updated_2007-06-07.29 ) |
| 13:43.58 | SpeedEvil | But the distance is much higher - you've got to take into account the viewing distance. |
| 13:44.21 | thomasg__ | thats right |
| 13:44.33 | mjr | "might even" is a careful saying, though |
| 13:44.57 | mjr | well, we'll see |
| 13:45.11 | thomasg__ | mjr, seaon might not be able to see in the future :) |
| 13:45.12 | aloril | mjr: yeah, good point |
| 13:45.27 | thomasg__ | and I say might, because I can't, too :) |
| 13:45.30 | SpeedEvil | What bus is the graphic accel connected to? |
| 13:45.58 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Camera]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] |
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| 13:46.08 | aloril | thomasg__: above was by Harald Welte |
| 13:46.17 | thomasg__ | ah, ok |
| 13:46.34 | aloril | Sean is the more optimistic one ;-) |
| 13:46.42 | thomasg__ | however, sounds like we really get the chance to have good open graphics in our neo's :) |
| 13:47.16 | SpeedEvil | I hope so. |
| 13:47.23 | *** join/#openmoko mmp (n=mmp@TheWide.ubyt.sdjls.uniba.sk) |
| 13:47.26 | thomasg__ | the same for me |
| 13:47.45 | SpeedEvil | Doing the hammerhead reverse-engineering is comparatively trivial to reverse engineering functionality not present in closed drivers. |
| 13:47.54 | thomasg__ | but I really need to learn C. do not want to have a neo without being able to write software for it :) |
| 13:48.26 | aloril | it would not make sense to have that chip and do only 2D ..I bet they can do 3D drivers too |
| 13:48.42 | *** join/#openmoko drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07F0EB.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:49.05 | SpeedEvil | The FIC team may not have time/budget to exploit every possibility is what I mean. |
| 13:49.13 | SpeedEvil | Even though they add the core functionality. |
| 13:49.25 | thomasg__ | aloril, sure they can. the question is: are they allowed to do open drivers |
| 13:49.44 | SpeedEvil | Even open drivers are not a complete help. |
| 13:49.53 | SpeedEvil | If they only implement some of the chips functionality. |
| 13:50.00 | mjr | yeah, if they have to do free drivers themselves, I'd not expect them to take advantage of the whole thing on release |
| 13:50.02 | aloril | thomasg__: I'm sure Harald Welte would not have used that chip if they could not open drivers |
| 13:50.28 | thomasg__ | aloril, yeah, I also think that harald wouldn't like to sign a NDA for this |
| 13:50.39 | mjr | at least mickey I think has stated here strongly that they wouldn't go closed graphics |
| 13:50.42 | SpeedEvil | There is an existing NDA for that, and they haven't pulled it. |
| 13:50.48 | aloril | SpeedEvil: latest rumors say that they are replacing hammerhead in GTA02 |
| 13:50.59 | SpeedEvil | I really hope not. |
| 13:51.08 | thomasg__ | why? |
| 13:51.10 | SpeedEvil | Unless it's with a similar chip. |
| 13:51.24 | SpeedEvil | There are potential very nice features in the hardware. |
| 13:51.35 | SpeedEvil | And the reverse engineering looks possible. |
| 13:51.37 | mjr | 'cause one gets more useful data out of the hammerhead than from some nmea-spouting chip |
| 13:51.39 | aloril | thomasg__: well.. NDA is a bit different than closed driver |
| 13:51.44 | mjr | given RE-success, of course |
| 13:51.57 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 13:52.05 | thomasg__ | aloril, it is, but the problem is, like SpeedEvil said, that the open driver might only implement SOME features |
| 13:52.46 | aloril | thomasg__: yeah, it might be very well be case that they can't disclose datasheet, only make open driver |
| 13:53.10 | aloril | but I trust them enough to believe that they will have open driver for 2D/3D accel |
| 13:53.19 | thomasg__ | but we'll see what the future brings. for the first time it's enough for me having a really open phone :) |
| 13:53.58 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yeah, I was thinking a bit similar, hh + reverse engineer might be even better than new chip + open driver from start |
| 13:54.12 | *** join/#openmoko empty_mind (n=orion@59.176.111.177) |
| 13:54.32 | thomasg__ | I'm glad that harald is included in this project. that makes it much more reliable |
| 13:54.50 | mjr | thomasg__, indeed |
| 13:55.11 | empty_mind | hmm is harald == reliability ? |
| 13:55.19 | Basheri | I know where this goes... Every time they release a new phone, i just have to buy it :P |
| 13:55.49 | mjr | Basheri, it doesn't seem too far-fetched, yeah... |
| 13:55.58 | *** join/#openmoko some1_ (n=some1@p54A0FB5F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:56.04 | woglinde | aloril yes seems so, the hardware came in from a other project |
| 13:56.07 | aloril | empty_mind: he GPL violations guy ( http://www.gpl-violations.org/ ) |
| 13:56.10 | thomasg__ | empty_mind, yes, harald is well known in the free-software-world |
| 13:56.30 | empty_mind | i know harald and i have met him couple of times |
| 13:57.45 | buz | fic should offer a subscription |
| 13:57.55 | SpeedEvil | subscription? |
| 13:58.07 | buz | if you buy each phone released, you get 20% off or something |
| 13:58.15 | Basheri | :D |
| 13:58.23 | thomasg__ | empty_mind, so imho harald makes the project of a huge oem manufacturer much more trustable |
| 13:58.35 | rwhitby | buz: they do - pay $450 per quarter and you get 4 phones a year :-) |
| 13:58.55 | buz | no discount then ;) |
| 13:59.49 | empty_mind | buz, you can become a dealer/franchise of FIC, there by getting huge discounts or may be a free phone ;-) |
| 13:59.51 | mjr | especially Harald's gpl-violations.org work is a huge trust bonus |
| 14:01.25 | *** join/#openmoko white_gecko (n=natanael@1Cust19.tnt12.ber2.deu.da.uu.net) |
| 14:01.35 | white_gecko | hey |
| 14:01.46 | white_gecko | http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3026 |
| 14:01.47 | aloril | white_gecko: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 14:02.26 | SpeedEvil | It should probably ignore that case aloril... |
| 14:03.04 | aloril | SpeedEvil: yeah |
| 14:03.05 | mjr | haha, "Ignore the slightly bent iPhone casing, we swear it came this way" |
| 14:03.18 | white_gecko | ^ this is a link about disassambling apple bottleopener ^ |
| 14:03.39 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 14:03.39 | mjr | nononoo, Neo is the only true bottle opener phone |
| 14:03.52 | white_gecko | oh jes |
| 14:03.52 | white_gecko | yes |
| 14:04.03 | white_gecko | but the iPhone nothing more than a bottleopener |
| 14:04.08 | buz | damn snobs, just drink beer from cans |
| 14:04.08 | buz | SCNR |
| 14:04.12 | white_gecko | but maby the edges are to round |
| 14:04.43 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@qiqinebs.chi.il.us) |
| 14:05.43 | thomasg__ | white_gecko, so what could it be used for? :) |
| 14:05.50 | white_gecko | i dont know |
| 14:06.51 | Basheri | buz: well, in finland the cans are much more expensive |
| 14:07.55 | thomasg__ | Basheri, was it finland where the kids was drinking the liquid soap from public toilets because there's alcohol in it? :) |
| 14:08.12 | woglinde | lol |
| 14:08.16 | buz | around here, sadly cans are cheaper |
| 14:08.17 | thomasg__ | no joke |
| 14:08.22 | mjr | thomasg__, I don't know, but might as well be |
| 14:08.25 | thomasg__ | not sure if it was finland or norway |
| 14:08.25 | buz | beer from cans tastes not as good |
| 14:08.30 | alphaone | I don't think the neo would open a bottle... |
| 14:08.45 | Basheri | thomasg__: Never heard of such thing :O |
| 14:08.46 | *** join/#openmoko Tm_T (i=tm_travo@kde/developer/jkekkonen) |
| 14:09.01 | thomasg__ | Basheri, I heard from it some years ago :) |
| 14:09.35 | Basheri | heh :D Probably norway then |
| 14:10.31 | buz | norway has the highest rate of blindness in all of europe |
| 14:10.42 | white_gecko | I like the beere from a bottle an its cheep here in germany I think |
| 14:10.44 | Basheri | At least it's not common phenomenon, since i havent heard of it |
| 14:10.47 | Dvalin | it was in sweden |
| 14:11.07 | Basheri | Cheap beer in germany <3 |
| 14:11.27 | buz | <3EUR? you call 3 eur cheap? |
| 14:11.38 | Dvalin | it had a very high amount of alcohol in it, so even if the taste was awful, they didn't have to drink that much of it to get wasted ;) |
| 14:11.46 | Basheri | omg, can't be that expencive :O |
| 14:11.49 | Basheri | *s |
| 14:12.28 | buz | in switzerland, cheapest beer is about 0.30EUR per 0.5l |
| 14:12.29 | woglinde | good beer in germany is around 0.50 eur |
| 14:12.36 | Basheri | that's great price |
| 14:12.38 | Dvalin | Basheri: when you're underage and at the same place partying that can easily happen for many kids I think ;) |
| 14:12.57 | Basheri | Dvalin: ok :P |
| 14:12.57 | drath | mhh, good beer starts at 0.50 eur... you can easily pay more |
| 14:13.00 | empty_mind | decent beer in India is about 2.5 eur :-) |
| 14:13.10 | Basheri | :O |
| 14:14.19 | Tm_T | drath: haha, well I don't drink "normal" stuff anyway, and I drink that one bottle all evening (: |
| 14:14.19 | buz | i get decent beer for 0.4EUR, very good one for 0.8EUR |
| 14:14.24 | Basheri | well, it isn't that expensive for good beer |
| 14:14.34 | buz | depends if its in a shop or a bar |
| 14:14.39 | *** join/#openmoko wildfire (n=wildfire@203.7.227.146) |
| 14:14.46 | buz | for a shop its hideously expensive even by swiss standards |
| 14:15.07 | Basheri | in finland, it's around 10 euros for 12 bottles of some lame lager |
| 14:15.23 | Tm_T | Basheri: yuh, that's exactly what I won't drink |
| 14:15.31 | Basheri | yeap |
| 14:15.34 | drath | hehehe |
| 14:15.40 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@20132173149.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 14:16.03 | Basheri | well, people here only drink to get drunk, so... |
| 14:16.09 | Tm_T | hah |
| 14:16.29 | Tm_T | glad I don't have to do that |
| 14:16.31 | Basheri | 12 bottles last one night |
| 14:16.33 | *** join/#openmoko Sup3rkiddo (n=sudharsh@unaffiliated/sudharsh) |
| 14:16.50 | white_gecko | ok i have to part now cu |
| 14:16.55 | *** join/#openmoko ruimoreira (n=rmoreira@87-196-114-120.net.novis.pt) |
| 14:16.55 | *** part/#openmoko white_gecko (n=natanael@1Cust19.tnt12.ber2.deu.da.uu.net) |
| 14:17.28 | buz | interesting fact: switzerland, land of the high prices, is about the only place where i ever found natural mineral water in 1.5l bottles for <0.20EUR ;) |
| 14:17.45 | Basheri | And many people go to estonia to buy cheap and strong booze |
| 14:17.57 | Basheri | alc % > 40 |
| 14:18.09 | buz | as for the hard stuff, i only drink scotch ;) |
| 14:18.22 | *** join/#openmoko gyaresu (n=gyaresu@ppp121-44-217-101.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net) |
| 14:18.56 | Basheri | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koskenkorva_Viina |
| 14:20.51 | buz | mhh how does that compare to vodka? |
| 14:20.54 | buz | (i hate vodka) |
| 14:21.30 | Basheri | it is not a true vodka |
| 14:21.34 | Basheri | but similar |
| 14:21.52 | buz | probably better quality |
| 14:22.24 | buz | oh its continous distillation |
| 14:22.29 | buz | not 200 step distilliation |
| 14:22.36 | ruimoreira | port wine anywone ? |
| 14:22.38 | ruimoreira | :D |
| 14:22.44 | ewon | how can you hate vodka? |
| 14:22.46 | ewon | madness |
| 14:23.09 | buz | tastes like cleaning solvent |
| 14:23.19 | buz | which it basically is |
| 14:23.44 | thomasg__ | buz, where are you from? |
| 14:23.59 | buz | south from you |
| 14:24.04 | thomasg__ | austria? |
| 14:24.14 | Basheri | "Kossu is at its best when it's cold, but can be also mixed for example with Coke (then it's called "Kossukola"), with Vichy water ("Kossuvissy"), orange juice ("screwdriver"), energy drink ("Kossu Battery") or certain (hard) salmiakki candies (Salmiakkikoskenkorva, Salmiakkikossu, Salmari)." |
| 14:24.22 | buz | the other south ;) |
| 14:24.31 | LuitvD | counter |
| 14:24.31 | aloril | (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 21:35:28 (8.900±1.0 days) (1653;242) |
| 14:24.54 | thomasg__ | erm buz, I'm german, there is austria and switzerland :) |
| 14:25.12 | *** join/#openmoko herbyle (n=pascal@p54A3695B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:25.12 | buz | now it's not austria so it's gotta be CH ;) |
| 14:25.38 | buz | near zurich FWIW |
| 14:25.52 | thomasg__ | ah, ok, because what you said about the water I thought you was there for some time, not your whole life :) |
| 14:25.53 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 14:26.20 | buz | mhh the formulation is a bit off, i admit ;) |
| 14:26.25 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508D9BC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:27.31 | thomasg__ | well, ok, the prices for water her go from 0.15 euro (1.5l) to 1.50 euro (0.75l) ^^ |
| 14:28.18 | buz | i admit i havent been shopping in germany for a long time |
| 14:28.21 | thomasg__ | and in the hotel I was before some weeks it was 4 euro for 0.75l ^^ |
| 14:28.38 | buz | aldi switzerland is about 0.15EUR too |
| 14:28.56 | buz | big chains slightly more |
| 14:30.07 | thomasg__ | another question: if you import a neo for $300 + $20 (transport fee's), how much would you pay taxes and so on in switzerland? |
| 14:30.33 | buz | 7.6% vat |
| 14:30.38 | buz | should not have any customs on it |
| 14:31.23 | thomasg__ | its 19% vat here -.- |
| 14:31.51 | thomasg__ | but no customs, too |
| 14:31.56 | buz | unless you are very close to the border, i doubt getting it from switzerland would pay |
| 14:33.11 | SpeedEvil | Flights can be very cheap. |
| 14:33.12 | thomasg__ | I'll be on a trip to austria in some weeks but not switzerland :( |
| 14:33.21 | thomasg__ | SpeedEvil, yeah, but not sooo cheap :) |
| 14:33.41 | buz | SpeedEvil: unless airport zurich is involved, yes |
| 14:33.49 | thomasg__ | hehe |
| 14:33.50 | buz | airport taxes in zurich are quite simply insane |
| 14:34.23 | thomasg__ | a flight between munich and berlin costs less than 50 euro |
| 14:34.36 | thomasg__ | the train ticket is more expensive |
| 14:34.40 | buz | even then, tax differential is much lower than that |
| 14:34.46 | thomasg__ | definateley :) |
| 14:35.28 | buz | but for more expensive things like notebooks, it sometimes does pay to shop here |
| 14:35.39 | buz | (also since we dont have the 14d return policy, shops can have lower prices) |
| 14:36.06 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 14:36.14 | ruimoreira | does anyone here uses fedora 7 ? |
| 14:36.51 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej_ (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 14:37.20 | thomasg__ | buz, I bought a keyboard from japan, because including vat and shipping it was cheaper than here :) |
| 14:37.35 | buz | i quite often buy stuff from hongkong because of that |
| 14:37.46 | *** join/#openmoko helb (n=helb@84.244.90.159) |
| 14:37.53 | raster | thomasg__: but then u got a .jp kbd layout |
| 14:37.54 | raster | :) |
| 14:38.09 | thomasg__ | no raster, english (what a luck ^^) |
| 14:38.09 | thomasg__ | :) |
| 14:38.15 | thomasg__ | nice to see you here |
| 14:38.23 | raster | that was lucky |
| 14:38.29 | raster | i get my kbds from usa or australia |
| 14:38.35 | raster | so i can get a sane layout |
| 14:38.41 | raster | and i LIVe in japan |
| 14:38.44 | thomasg__ | I know |
| 14:38.56 | raster | hell |
| 14:39.04 | raster | i ordered my laptop from the oem in taiwan |
| 14:39.07 | raster | just to get a us kbd layout |
| 14:39.08 | thomasg__ | and I can't wait to have eem and e17 on my neo :) |
| 14:39.09 | raster | instead of jp |
| 14:39.13 | raster | that was an effort |
| 14:39.19 | raster | u wont see eem |
| 14:39.20 | thomasg__ | hehe |
| 14:39.23 | raster | but e17 will come |
| 14:39.32 | raster | right now oe is busy building half the universe |
| 14:39.39 | thomasg__ | yeah, I have seen the changes for the n800, might be very useful for the neo, too |
| 14:39.53 | raster | directly useful |
| 14:39.58 | raster | but thats just rendering code |
| 14:40.17 | raster | right now i'm more interested in adapting e17's layout management to be more "matchboxy" |
| 14:40.19 | raster | ie |
| 14:40.30 | raster | be able to place windows always 'mnaximized" |
| 14:40.31 | raster | fotr example |
| 14:40.52 | raster | (i speak loosely here - some windows like virtual kbd wont be - in fact i might add a vkbd to e) |
| 14:41.00 | thomasg__ | morlenxus and me was discussing that before some days |
| 14:41.27 | thomasg__ | there's already a vkbd module, but it doesn't work very well |
| 14:41.32 | thomasg__ | guess you know it |
| 14:41.38 | raster | actually i dont |
| 14:41.44 | thomasg__ | just a moment please |
| 14:41.53 | raster | but making one isnt too hard in principle |
| 14:41.59 | raster | and makign it work right is not hard |
| 14:42.06 | raster | the HARd bit is doing the feckin kbd layout |
| 14:42.11 | raster | so its usable |
| 14:42.12 | thomasg__ | it's name is eyboard :) |
| 14:42.20 | raster | adding in things like dictionaty word matching |
| 14:42.24 | thomasg__ | I could send you the tgz if you want |
| 14:42.29 | raster | guessing of captialisation att eh start of sentences/entries |
| 14:42.43 | raster | then making it wokr with a THUMBN |
| 14:42.44 | thomasg__ | the authors name is Sthitha |
| 14:42.46 | raster | (nto a stylus) |
| 14:43.15 | raster | hmm |
| 14:43.18 | raster | not in cvs i see |
| 14:43.30 | thomasg__ | it's external (and a very early version) |
| 14:44.56 | raster | google is not being helpful |
| 14:44.58 | raster | bugger |
| 14:45.00 | raster | oh well |
| 14:45.03 | raster | not important right now |
| 14:45.07 | thomasg__ | mybe it's on google code? |
| 14:45.24 | raster | i need to make e be able to DO more of a maximized layout (with optional floating dialogs) |
| 14:45.28 | thomasg__ | but like I said, I have the snapshot here if you want |
| 14:45.59 | thomasg__ | what we would need is that all windows are maximized by default and a good possibility to switch the windows. I guess the window list is not the best choise for the neo |
| 14:46.02 | raster | might take a look later |
| 14:46.04 | raster | keep it on ice |
| 14:46.19 | raster | yup |
| 14:46.26 | raster | got a good idea of what we need |
| 14:46.26 | raster | :) |
| 14:46.33 | thomasg__ | I'm in #e, too, just ask if you need it |
| 14:46.52 | *** join/#openmoko some1__ (n=some1@p54A0F315.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:46.56 | raster | i just need to start on the lowe-hanigng fruit |
| 14:47.00 | raster | first is the layout code |
| 14:47.08 | raster | i'm tossing up as to what to do there |
| 14:47.09 | thomasg__ | I'll make some thoughts, too (but can't implement them ^^ as I'm not a coder :( ) |
| 14:47.18 | raster | but... |
| 14:47.20 | raster | now i think about it |
| 14:47.24 | raster | i just should put in hooks |
| 14:47.29 | raster | and let a module implement policy |
| 14:48.03 | thomasg__ | will you buy a neo on the 9th of july? |
| 14:48.09 | raster | no |
| 14:48.19 | raster | why would i do that? |
| 14:48.21 | raster | :) |
| 14:48.46 | thomasg__ | why do you have the n800? :) |
| 14:49.03 | raster | i laready have a neo sitting here |
| 14:49.08 | raster | soaking up my usb voltage |
| 14:49.09 | thomasg__ | bastard! |
| 14:49.10 | thomasg__ | :P |
| 14:49.17 | Sup3rkiddo | *sigh* |
| 14:49.19 | raster | next to the n800 |
| 14:49.19 | thomasg__ | how did you get one? by FIC? |
| 14:49.21 | *** join/#openmoko merriam_ (n=merriam@85-211-239-240.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 14:49.27 | Sup3rkiddo | *sigh* ^ 3 |
| 14:49.49 | raster | i am now keen to not just have e17 runing on the n800 and neo |
| 14:49.56 | raster | but make it work NICELY |
| 14:50.26 | jeddy3 | yes, how is the performance on the neo? |
| 14:50.35 | raster | dunno |
| 14:50.41 | raster | but i would bet about the same as the n800 |
| 14:50.48 | *** join/#openmoko slider (n=sebastia@pD9576868.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 14:50.49 | Sup3rkiddo | hacking on the qemu is boring :( |
| 14:50.54 | raster | i'm still waiting for OE to build the world |
| 14:50.55 | raster | :) |
| 14:51.05 | raster | simply put |
| 14:51.08 | ravan | raster: it failed at perl-native for me |
| 14:51.12 | raster | nowhere near a modern x867 desktop |
| 14:51.14 | raster | but decent |
| 14:51.25 | raster | ravan: it gfailed a few places |
| 14:51.33 | raster | for me it didnt like LD_LIBRARY_PATH being set |
| 14:51.49 | raster | and MAKEFLAGS was not happy being set to -j4 |
| 14:51.57 | *** join/#openmoko LetoTo (n=paul@76-10-144-1.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 14:51.58 | jeddy3 | there is a 16bpp engine for the e-stuff right? |
| 14:51.59 | Sup3rkiddo | ravan, some asm.h thing? |
| 14:52.12 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 14:52.14 | raster | NOTE: package libnss-mdns-0.9-r0: task do_configure: started |
| 14:52.16 | raster | up to there |
| 14:52.28 | raster | jeddy3: yes - recently started |
| 14:52.42 | jeddy3 | raster, nice |
| 14:52.47 | raster | specifically keeping in mind its for a LOCAL xserver (not remote over the network - it ONLY does shm) |
| 14:53.02 | raster | and it assumes u are willing to drop some quality in return for speed |
| 14:53.26 | raster | so its kind of assuming these high-res miniature screen u find on the neo andf n800 |
| 14:53.33 | raster | there is always the normal software_x11 enigne |
| 14:53.35 | raster | thats full 32bpp |
| 14:53.41 | ravan | Sup3rkiddo: no. ../makedepend: 1: Syntax error: Unterminated quoted string in perl-5.8.7/x2p |
| 14:53.43 | raster | and looks gorgeos on my n800 |
| 14:53.48 | raster | as good as 32bpp |
| 14:53.53 | raster | as its ditheredf 16bpp |
| 14:53.55 | jeddy3 | but neo display is 16bpp right? |
| 14:54.04 | raster | well the output is 16bpp |
| 14:54.12 | raster | for software_x11 on these devices |
| 14:54.18 | raster | but all internal rendering in software is in 32bpp |
| 14:54.20 | zecke | ravan: happy dash user. the current OE version uses perl 5.8.8 and has a dash fix... |
| 14:54.25 | jeddy3 | aah, got it now |
| 14:54.36 | raster | conversion to 16bpp is done at the end of rendering and is dont with dithering |
| 14:54.48 | raster | software_16 is rendering completely in 16bpp |
| 14:54.51 | raster | all the way |
| 14:55.00 | raster | thus u pay a quality pricve |
| 14:55.04 | raster | price |
| 14:55.07 | jeddy3 | nod |
| 14:55.22 | raster | its also not complete at all currently |
| 14:55.26 | raster | just enouhg to get startred |
| 14:55.34 | raster | and see if the 16bit engine is worth more effort |
| 14:55.37 | raster | so far it seems to be |
| 14:55.45 | raster | after an initial rocky start |
| 14:55.54 | raster | some of the improvments shoudl be moved to the 32bpp enigne too |
| 14:56.02 | raster | like arm prefetch asm macros |
| 14:57.40 | *** join/#openmoko dav7 (i=x@unaffiliated/dav7) |
| 14:57.40 | dav7 | WOW |
| 14:57.40 | raster | in the end it should make evas a direct competitor to SDL for games for handhelds |
| 14:57.42 | dav7 | huge channel! |
| 14:57.43 | raster | if not a preferred engine |
| 14:57.57 | raster | because u get a full "sprite" engine with scvaling and text and more |
| 14:57.58 | raster | for free |
| 14:58.01 | dav7 | hi all |
| 14:58.02 | dav7 | question |
| 14:58.11 | jeddy3 | raster, nice! |
| 14:58.11 | dav7 | when can I get one of these in Australia? |
| 14:58.12 | raster | and instant accel pipeline thru eithe xrender or gl enignes |
| 14:58.12 | aloril | dav7: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 14:58.12 | dav7 | :P |
| 14:58.19 | raster | should there be an accel path on the device |
| 14:58.43 | raster | tho right now xrender is the usual "abysmal" in performance |
| 14:58.56 | aloril | dav7: cyborg ;-) |
| 14:59.07 | dav7 | eh? |
| 14:59.21 | dav7 | ohhh |
| 14:59.24 | dav7 | lulz |
| 14:59.25 | dav7 | :D |
| 14:59.33 | aloril | dav7: that FAQ link was triggered by script, this is typed |
| 14:59.55 | *** join/#openmoko koen (n=koen@dominion.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 15:00.10 | dav7 | yep |
| 15:00.30 | raster | http://www.rasterman.com/files/n800-engines.pdf |
| 15:00.40 | aloril | dav7: you can order online from openmoko.com at 2007-07-09 (or you can wait several months to get locally (I suppose this will eventually happen)) |
| 15:00.42 | raster | thats a performancer comparison of the bits of the 16bit engine that work so far |
| 15:00.59 | raster | and software_x11 (32bpp in software with full 128x128 dither mask rendering down to 16bpp) and xrender |
| 15:01.04 | aloril | 2^8 nicks in this channel |
| 15:01.11 | dav7 | aloril: :D |
| 15:01.56 | dav7 | aloril: I'm in Australia and NOT a developer (say tweaker :D) and my main concern is whether it'll work with Australian networks. |
| 15:02.07 | dav7 | Even CDMA coverage is better then nothing for something like this :D |
| 15:02.08 | ciacon | I have an interesting sujestion. I lost my old phone and thought, now that this phone has a gps in it - why not make use of it... would it not be a cool thing to send it an sms with pre-defined content, and then subsequentially call it to tell you it's gps location?? i'm fairly sure, that google-earth can from then on give you a fairly good idea of where it is... |
| 15:02.18 | raster | dav7: it should - its gsm/gprs |
| 15:02.18 | *** join/#openmoko quickdev (n=deluxe@Vc308.v.pppool.de) |
| 15:02.18 | CoreDump|home | hi |
| 15:02.21 | quickdev | Hello |
| 15:02.22 | dav7 | raster: cool |
| 15:02.22 | aloril | dav7: it works, already tested by one developer in Australia |
| 15:02.23 | dav7 | hey |
| 15:02.33 | *** join/#openmoko Richard_ (n=tgr@221.137.146.122) |
| 15:02.33 | dav7 | aloril: WOW COOL! |
| 15:02.33 | jeddy3 | hehe xrender is not a speed deamon excactly... |
| 15:02.37 | raster | ciacon: perfectly possible |
| 15:02.41 | aloril | (GSM of course) |
| 15:02.42 | raster | ciacon: thats the POINT of an open phone |
| 15:02.55 | raster | ciacon: you want it to happen - go make it happen. pick up an editor and write code |
| 15:02.55 | raster | :) |
| 15:02.59 | dav7 | :D |
| 15:03.17 | dav7 | ^ fav mindset |
| 15:03.17 | dav7 | \o/ |
| 15:03.34 | raster | jeddy3: no - it SHOULD be at least about the speed of software_x11 |
| 15:03.35 | *** join/#openmoko fastPrint (i=fastPrin@59-115-228-161.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 15:03.45 | raster | and if accelerated - a LOT faster |
| 15:03.46 | aloril | ciacon: yes or you could press buttons when you call it to get it speak its position or it could reply to your sms or ... |
| 15:03.55 | jeddy3 | raster, oh |
| 15:04.18 | raster | aloril: or better - be able to sms it a special msg then iot literally "calls home" on a predefined numebr |
| 15:04.21 | ciacon | raster: I thought haveing the thing itself would make mor scense to start working on an real-world example... I talk about calling it, because mine's a prepaid that rearly has cash on it ;-) |
| 15:04.25 | raster | so u can listen in on who has it and what they are doing |
| 15:04.55 | thomasg__ | there are soo many things possible :) |
| 15:04.56 | raster | ciacon: or just send an sms and the phone will lokc itself |
| 15:05.02 | raster | down to some minimally functional mode |
| 15:05.13 | raster | so it can only recieve calls and sms's |
| 15:05.13 | aloril | or with some triggery you could even ssh into it over GPRS |
| 15:05.13 | thomasg__ | or just send a sms and the phone will destroy itself :) |
| 15:05.19 | ciacon | raster: I know why I want this phone ;-) |
| 15:05.20 | raster | and the ui simpy wont allow outgoing sms's and calls |
| 15:05.28 | raster | u can do just about anything u like |
| 15:05.32 | raster | thats the point of the project |
| 15:05.41 | raster | eventually some realyl good ideas and implementations will appear |
| 15:05.46 | raster | and i am sure if they are good and wel ldone |
| 15:05.51 | aloril | or make it record position continuously to some server so you can see its trail |
| 15:05.55 | raster | they will even roll back into the mainline software for the phone |
| 15:06.00 | raster | so all users get the feature "out of the box" |
| 15:06.32 | raster | aloril: only if u have "unlimited" data plans :) |
| 15:06.42 | thomasg__ | I'm looking forward to automatic profile switching, recording all calls automatically, syncing how I want, .. |
| 15:06.50 | raster | thomasg__: that means we need a new gen of the neo to come with the "C4" chip |
| 15:06.52 | raster | :) |
| 15:06.58 | raster | send it a signal |
| 15:07.00 | ciacon | I just keep on thinking, that I (as a student using prepaid) try to rule out the problem, that the phone can't answer, becaus it's out of money |
| 15:07.00 | raster | BOOM |
| 15:07.03 | raster | :) |
| 15:07.13 | thomasg__ | raster, so is it :) |
| 15:07.24 | *** join/#openmoko aesci7E (n=aesci99@221.221.143.111) |
| 15:07.38 | thomasg__ | and before the exploiton it tells: All your base are belong to us! |
| 15:07.48 | raster | ciacon: you cant ANSWER a call if u run out of credit? |
| 15:07.54 | raster | or RECIEVE and SMS? |
| 15:08.01 | raster | sending i understand |
| 15:08.07 | ciacon | I can recieve sms/calls.. but the phone can |
| 15:08.19 | raster | thus u probably want to be able to remotely send an sms that has your phone sms you back info like # oif sms's left on credit |
| 15:08.21 | ciacon | 't place call or send sms when out of credit |
| 15:08.26 | raster | and then u can decide if it should lock itself |
| 15:08.32 | raster | or start reporting gps location every 10 mins |
| 15:08.34 | CoreDump|home | even if your SIM card is locked you can still receive calls |
| 15:08.36 | raster | or whatever |
| 15:08.50 | thomasg__ | and maybe you could remote dial the police |
| 15:09.02 | *** join/#openmoko davi (n=davi@185.Red-83-44-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 15:09.07 | raster | thomasg__: i think being able to just tell the police |
| 15:09.13 | raster | "my phone is at this location" |
| 15:09.16 | raster | will work well |
| 15:09.16 | thomasg__ | and the coordinates would be enough, yes :) |
| 15:09.21 | ciacon | police in DE is not interested in automated mobiles phone calls ;-) |
| 15:09.26 | raster | tho chances are police will laugh and ignore you |
| 15:09.38 | aloril | going with police to thief "I think you have my phone in your pocket, can you give it to me?" "No I don't" <presses button in another mobile> you mobile screams: "Help I'm stolen!" |
| 15:09.40 | raster | as they are unlikely to be interested in retrieving lost/stolen phones |
| 15:09.57 | raster | chances are u will need to do this for yoursself |
| 15:10.01 | raster | so be able to track where it is |
| 15:10.02 | ewon | police in Ireland wouldn't know what to do with a set of coordinates |
| 15:10.03 | thomasg__ | raster, in germany they aren't interested in the coordinates, too... |
| 15:10.04 | raster | and go there to GET it |
| 15:10.27 | *** join/#openmoko jouston (n=jouston@211-74-123-16.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw) |
| 15:10.32 | raster | ewon: well u';d weant that converted to a "183 jones st, blumville" |
| 15:10.42 | raster | with a nice gogle map pic |
| 15:10.43 | raster | etc. |
| 15:10.57 | ciacon | I know that germany's intelligence agency's are interested on imsi catchers... i was in a dev-team testing that sort of stuff;-) |
| 15:11.12 | ciacon | they'd love gps coordinates;-) |
| 15:11.16 | jouston | Hello everybody |
| 15:11.18 | ewon | careful now :) |
| 15:11.22 | ciacon | hi jouston |
| 15:11.31 | jouston | I'd like to ask something |
| 15:11.31 | thomasg__ | I'm working for a mobile provider and some thiefs opened the car of a co-worker and took the phones with them. we located the phones using GSM and told the police the coordinates. they didn't do anything |
| 15:11.48 | raster | thomasg__: not surprising |
| 15:11.59 | jouston | What is your favorite international shipping comany? |
| 15:12.01 | ciacon | thomasg__: rather sadening |
| 15:12.02 | raster | its not worth enough for the polic to bother getting off their fat arses |
| 15:12.05 | jouston | To ship Neo |
| 15:12.06 | raster | :( |
| 15:12.15 | thomasg__ | maybe thats it |
| 15:12.22 | raster | they wont get some commendation badge for "pikcing up some stolen phones" |
| 15:12.23 | raster | :) |
| 15:12.34 | thomasg__ | jouston, FedEx does a good job, imho |
| 15:12.53 | jouston | We have FedEx, UPS and EMS. What else needed? |
| 15:12.55 | raster | u want to be able to 1. disable the phone so it becomes useless to the thief |
| 15:13.01 | thomasg__ | just fedex |
| 15:13.06 | raster | 2. be able to locate where it is so u can get it yourself |
| 15:13.10 | raster | oftne phones are not stolen |
| 15:13.13 | raster | but just left somewhere |
| 15:13.15 | thomasg__ | thats the good thing with them: you order, they deliver, doesn't matter where you are |
| 15:13.16 | raster | like in a taxi |
| 15:13.17 | raster | or bus |
| 15:13.36 | jouston | Well. FedEx and UPS can't reach Argentina. |
| 15:13.41 | thomasg__ | they also pay the customs and vax and so on and you just need to give the deliveryman the money |
| 15:13.42 | ciacon | I think a standardized algorithm to have the phone spit out the gps coords is rather a security risk... |
| 15:13.43 | SuN | And consequently stolen ... |
| 15:14.00 | thomasg__ | jouston, why not? |
| 15:14.03 | jouston | Only EMS can deal with Argentina. |
| 15:14.17 | thomasg__ | ok, thats bad |
| 15:14.27 | jouston | thomasg__: It is a long story. Basically they have a collaped custom. |
| 15:14.30 | raster | jouston: FIC have a developer in argentina |
| 15:14.31 | raster | i believe |
| 15:14.37 | raster | so there will be some way to ship it |
| 15:14.38 | raster | there |
| 15:14.42 | jouston | raster: Yes, I heard this from Werner. |
| 15:14.51 | jouston | And FIC no more, it is openmoko. |
| 15:15.00 | raster | true |
| 15:15.01 | raster | :) |
| 15:15.03 | jouston | openmoko.com I mean. |
| 15:15.07 | koen | raster: ever thought about an eveas version of maemo-mapper? |
| 15:15.20 | koen | evas* |
| 15:15.25 | *** join/#openmoko evanpro (n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) |
| 15:15.41 | ScaredyCat | can't you deliver them personally ;) |
| 15:16.07 | jouston | ScaredyCat: I can do it if customer pay me. |
| 15:16.14 | ScaredyCat | :) |
| 15:16.16 | evanpro | I heard a rumour that if you buy one of the Open Source phones, you have to let anyone who asks borrow it and make long-distance calls |
| 15:16.21 | evanpro | Per the requirements of GPLv3 |
| 15:16.23 | ScaredyCat | lol |
| 15:16.49 | jouston | evanpro: that's good joke. |
| 15:16.53 | evanpro | Also you have to text-message blueprints and source code to everyone you call |
| 15:16.55 | raster | Kaloz: maemo-mapper - havent' seen it |
| 15:17.00 | ScaredyCat | clear |
| 15:17.11 | evanpro | maemo-mapper is pretty decent |
| 15:17.12 | ScaredyCat | oops |
| 15:17.24 | evanpro | Although I think it uses non-free tiles that you download in some weird way |
| 15:17.46 | thomasg__ | hey raster, don't forget to tell me when e17 is running on your neo :) |
| 15:17.52 | thomasg__ | and please: pics! |
| 15:17.54 | evanpro | Hey so |
| 15:18.39 | ciacon | BB everyone.... i gtg... se you lot soon |
| 15:18.41 | evanpro | I've been thinking about this iPhoneDevCamp |
| 15:18.45 | evanpro | http://barcamp.pbwiki.com/iPhoneDevCamp <-- this |
| 15:18.56 | evanpro | It's really sad |
| 15:19.10 | thomasg__ | evanpro, why? |
| 15:19.23 | raster | koen: as long as i dont need to add the vector rendering of the maps... should be trivial with evas |
| 15:19.26 | evanpro | I guess if Apple didn't let people write Web apps (!), people would have a camp to see what music you could compose on the keypad |
| 15:19.43 | *** join/#openmoko unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) |
| 15:19.45 | thomasg__ | hehe |
| 15:19.49 | thomasg__ | true :) |
| 15:19.49 | ewon | pfft, webapps |
| 15:19.57 | evanpro | thomasg__: because it's such a closed platform |
| 15:20.01 | ewon | what if you live in a country where mobile data costs a shitload? |
| 15:20.12 | evanpro | Anywho |
| 15:20.16 | thomasg__ | but well, this device is not more interesting to me than the uc in a microwave :) |
| 15:20.25 | evanpro | It got me to thinking: why not have an OpenMoKoCamp? |
| 15:20.30 | raster | ewon: only the rich have an iphone then |
| 15:20.32 | evanpro | OpenMoKoDevCamp? |
| 15:20.41 | raster | ewon: then the iphone is seen as a status symbol of being feckin wealthy |
| 15:20.47 | raster | or not knowing the value of money |
| 15:20.50 | thomasg__ | raster, did you see the plans and prices? |
| 15:20.52 | raster | :) |
| 15:21.02 | raster | thomasg__: have heard of them |
| 15:21.03 | thomasg__ | 500/600$ for the device, 60-240$ per month -.- |
| 15:21.05 | raster | dont much care |
| 15:21.08 | raster | never gettign one anyway |
| 15:21.09 | raster | :) |
| 15:21.09 | thomasg__ | really sick |
| 15:21.13 | thomasg__ | the same for me |
| 15:21.18 | ewon | I've written quite a decent prototype of my TargetPlot clone with superwaba, will try sticking it on one of palms later |
| 15:21.29 | evanpro | I was think synch up OpenMoKoCamp with LinuxWorld in August in SF |
| 15:21.35 | evanpro | Maybe the day after |
| 15:22.00 | evanpro | I don't know if the FIC people will be at LWCE or not |
| 15:22.04 | evanpro | But lots of hackers will be there |
| 15:22.10 | evanpro | and it'd be a great time to do a presentation |
| 15:22.10 | raster | openmoko now |
| 15:22.11 | raster | :) |
| 15:22.23 | aloril | there is a standard joke about police not acting "There is thief in my garage" "We are too busy, can't come now" .. later rings again "No need to come anymore I dealt with him myself" .. soon.. many police cars ;-) |
| 15:22.27 | koen | raster: afaik the only vectors you need are the ones used to draw the tracks and routes |
| 15:22.37 | thomasg__ | aloril, lol |
| 15:22.44 | raster | koen: that'd be doable then |
| 15:23.10 | raster | but... no room on my todo list |
| 15:23.11 | raster | no time |
| 15:23.13 | raster | real life |
| 15:23.16 | raster | real jobs to do |
| 15:23.19 | raster | wm's to hack |
| 15:23.21 | koen | evas would be usefull for women-mode, where north isn't up, but your bearing is |
| 15:23.23 | raster | toolkits to write |
| 15:23.24 | raster | :) |
| 15:23.43 | raster | koen: u'd need rotation - evas doesnt have that (yet) |
| 15:26.34 | *** join/#openmoko icman (n=icman@123-240-172-33.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) |
| 15:30.21 | CoreDump|home | hmmm e17 on the neo...yummie =) |
| 15:30.41 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 15:31.04 | Basheri | e17 on anything... yummie =) |
| 15:31.11 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 15:33.32 | raster | hehehe |
| 15:34.33 | *** join/#openmoko fabiand (n=fabiand@p5489048F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:36.12 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 15:37.00 | jeddy3 | so there is a plan on getting some "wm", not eem, usable on the neo? ...not only libraries but something to replace matchbox and menus |
| 15:37.21 | hrw | matchbox is good choice for such device |
| 15:37.23 | jeddy3 | from the e17 world that is |
| 15:37.46 | jeddy3 | yes, maybe not official, but |
| 15:38.02 | raster | jeddy3: yes. i wouldnt be happy ohterwise |
| 15:38.08 | raster | getting the libs to work is a no braer |
| 15:38.11 | raster | brainer |
| 15:38.13 | raster | just compile them |
| 15:38.24 | hrw | koen: 2.8" vga 285dpi... compared to 8-10" vga which I have on desk.. |
| 15:38.35 | drath | koen: seeing is believing - i haven't seen it yet, so i have no real idea what it's going to look like |
| 15:38.42 | raster | its tiny |
| 15:38.47 | raster | pixels vanish |
| 15:38.51 | koen | hrw: vga + 285DPI is all the info you need |
| 15:38.56 | raster | anti-aliasing almost blurs away |
| 15:39.07 | raster | but u still can tell aa vs non-aa |
| 15:39.12 | raster | but its just so subtle at that dpi |
| 15:40.29 | jeddy3 | raster, ok sweet, looking on how nicely other "e" work is implemented, like eem and such, that makes me really excited |
| 15:41.41 | raster | eem wont |
| 15:41.44 | raster | it was only ever a demo |
| 15:41.58 | raster | but adding things to e17 to take over functionality like that |
| 15:42.00 | raster | will happen |
| 15:42.08 | raster | like "main menu" modules |
| 15:42.09 | raster | etc. |
| 15:42.18 | raster | hell |
| 15:42.26 | raster | there's already a filemanager in e17 |
| 15:42.33 | jeddy3 | :) |
| 15:42.34 | raster | its got the kitchen sink built in already |
| 15:42.34 | raster | :) |
| 15:42.50 | raster | aqnd its not as lean as matchbox |
| 15:42.51 | raster | for sure |
| 15:42.52 | raster | BUT |
| 15:43.01 | raster | it has tonnes more functionality |
| 15:43.10 | raster | and takes over the functions of a lot of "helper apps" that u run |
| 15:43.13 | raster | like panels |
| 15:43.18 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-088-064-123-023.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 15:43.20 | raster | launcher |
| 15:43.24 | raster | etc. etc. |
| 15:43.27 | raster | in 1 blob |
| 15:43.38 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@gw.aurisp.de) |
| 15:43.42 | raster | imho the most comon functions of your phone probably should be built into something like e |
| 15:43.47 | raster | or at leats something that is always runing |
| 15:43.52 | raster | so u dont have to wait for it to launch to use it |
| 15:45.58 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[IPhone]] [[Minimo/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] |
| 15:46.39 | ScaredyCat | ! |
| 15:48.18 | raster | the neo will need a good web browser |
| 15:48.24 | raster | that is not going to be a small feat |
| 15:48.36 | jeddy3 | indeed |
| 15:48.53 | raster | minimo is big |
| 15:49.05 | raster | webkit is c+= with no ui on top to control it as a browser |
| 15:49.13 | raster | dillo is.. well.. minimally usable |
| 15:49.14 | zecke | raster: I'm working on WebKit/Gdk, so is alp |
| 15:49.17 | jeddy3 | i know - everyone is sick of hearing about ihpone...but it's safari looks reaaally nive |
| 15:49.19 | raster | opera is closed and u need to license it |
| 15:49.21 | hrw | first neo needs phone software not web browser |
| 15:49.22 | jeddy3 | s/nive/nice |
| 15:49.31 | raster | zecke: oh cool! |
| 15:49.32 | raster | :) |
| 15:49.40 | hrw | now you cannot even send SMS with it (or receive) |
| 15:49.42 | jeddy3 | webkit is cool! |
| 15:49.43 | raster | zecke: how nice/easy is webkit to use? |
| 15:49.55 | zecke | raster: hehe, we don't have an API yet :) |
| 15:49.58 | raster | how much of gdk does it depend on or need? |
| 15:50.12 | raster | hrw: yes - it needs a lot :) |
| 15:50.28 | raster | but - many hands make light work |
| 15:50.29 | raster | :) |
| 15:50.48 | zecke | raster: it needs Gdk for events, cairo for all the painting. And we started using Gtk for implementing native scrollbars and theming |
| 15:51.16 | raster | hmm |
| 15:51.23 | raster | how much does it need from the rendering engine? |
| 15:51.28 | raster | text? |
| 15:51.31 | raster | primtivies? |
| 15:51.31 | hrw | and neo1973 needs somekind of 'I am charging' information.. |
| 15:51.41 | raster | is it immediate mode based |
| 15:51.44 | raster | ie paint |
| 15:51.45 | zecke | raster: floating point precision and alpha |
| 15:51.46 | raster | or object mode |
| 15:51.54 | raster | ie |
| 15:51.56 | raster | create an image |
| 15:51.59 | raster | a text blob |
| 15:51.59 | raster | etc. |
| 15:52.03 | raster | then manipulate it |
| 15:52.04 | raster | ? |
| 15:52.19 | raster | hrw: apm provides that |
| 15:52.20 | raster | already |
| 15:52.35 | raster | little battery charger tells u |
| 15:52.36 | hrw | raster: to have apm you need to boot. to boot you need to have power |
| 15:53.01 | raster | hrw: u mean in uboot? |
| 15:53.16 | raster | that is the chicken and egg problem i hit this week |
| 15:53.41 | raster | dead battery |
| 15:53.47 | raster | cant boot neo so the battery can charge |
| 15:53.52 | raster | because battery is dead |
| 15:53.54 | zecke | raster: hehe, you will outperform me on graphics. WebKit is doing the layouting of text. There is the RenderTree that will use GraphicsContext to paint (regions). So your imaging model etc. is up to the port |
| 15:54.02 | hrw | raster: I have external charger |
| 15:54.18 | raster | zecke: hmm - i guess i would need to look deeper |
| 15:54.25 | raster | zecke: just was pondering an evas port |
| 15:54.33 | raster | so a web page just becomes a sma object |
| 15:54.37 | raster | much like emotion does with video |
| 15:54.45 | raster | hrw: lucky you |
| 15:54.48 | zecke | raster: http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/graphics for the Graphic interfaces used by WebKit |
| 15:55.06 | zecke | raster: WebKit thinks in terms of Frames and FrameViews |
| 15:55.07 | raster | hrw: i dont. i ended up using rubber bands and sticky tape because my sony ericsoon lucky would agree to charge the neo's battery |
| 15:55.10 | *** join/#openmoko sudharsh_ (n=sudharsh@59.92.54.188) |
| 15:55.12 | raster | even if it was foreign |
| 15:55.14 | hrw | raster: it is 3 eur worth 3rdparty nokia charger |
| 15:55.26 | zecke | raster: graphic ops for normal HTML http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/graphics/GraphicsContext.h |
| 15:57.01 | zecke | raster: getting it to render one page is easy, making it always work is the tough part in WebKit |
| 15:57.41 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=huhh@dsl54007E7C.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 15:58.07 | *** join/#openmoko mzb (n=ubernut@ppp108-88.static.internode.on.net) |
| 15:58.22 | raster | zecke: yuk. it's immediate mode |
| 15:59.17 | zecke | let me google :) |
| 15:59.21 | raster | hrw: woudl be much mroe than 3eur here in jp |
| 15:59.27 | raster | considering how rare nokia phones are here |
| 15:59.39 | raster | zecke: that means its "draw draw draw" |
| 15:59.51 | raster | not "create object - set the text, move it here" |
| 15:59.58 | hrw | raster: probably |
| 16:00.59 | zecke | raster: ahh, so the cairo api is object mode based |
| 16:01.19 | raster | no |
| 16:01.22 | raster | cairo is immediate |
| 16:01.35 | raster | a WIDGET SET is stateful |
| 16:01.37 | raster | u create a button |
| 16:01.40 | raster | or an entry |
| 16:01.42 | raster | an icon |
| 16:01.45 | raster | label |
| 16:01.45 | raster | etc. |
| 16:01.47 | raster | then pack it |
| 16:01.50 | raster | or move it |
| 16:01.54 | raster | u never redraw it |
| 16:01.59 | raster | widget set handles all that for u |
| 16:02.03 | raster | u simply manipulate state |
| 16:02.15 | raster | like move/resize of a window |
| 16:03.06 | raster | well |
| 16:03.33 | raster | webkit would need to be implemented as an object |
| 16:03.39 | *** join/#openmoko jouston (n=jouston@211-74-123-16.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw) |
| 16:03.47 | raster | as only first class objects are allowed to have immediate-mode rendering api's |
| 16:03.58 | raster | eiother that or have cairo render it to an argb buffer |
| 16:04.04 | raster | and just let evas composite it |
| 16:12.29 | LuitvD | does anybody here know how directly accessible the USB data pins are on a mobile USB device like the Neo? |
| 16:13.06 | hrw | LuitvD: they are in external miniUSB |
| 16:13.30 | LuitvD | I mean accessibility from a software point of view |
| 16:14.43 | LuitvD | for example, can you dump an IR-signal on the data pins? |
| 16:15.00 | happycube | i doubt it - there's a standard usb 1.1 controller on it |
| 16:15.12 | hrw | you want to use d-/d+ lines as gpio? |
| 16:15.21 | LuitvD | hrw: ideally, yes |
| 16:21.57 | drath | why don't you just use a cheap usb-enabled micro as a "gpio-extender"? |
| 16:22.24 | balrog-kun | LuitvD: that should be possible if you disable the USB module |
| 16:22.35 | LuitvD | hmm |
| 16:22.58 | LuitvD | would make a nice way to transform a Neo into a kickass remote control |
| 16:23.35 | *** join/#openmoko lardman (n=simon@78.145.5.25) |
| 16:23.43 | *** join/#openmoko gamin (n=m@car06-3-82-240-156-91.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:24.25 | gamin | if you want to see acool/funny video about the iphone go here http://leonho.com/articles/great-video-david-pogue-reviews-iphone/ |
| 16:24.36 | gamin | and yes, the vid is from the ny times! |
| 16:24.55 | gamin | (seen via planet gnome) |
| 16:27.07 | *** join/#openmoko some1___ (n=some1@p54A0E4CC.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:27.11 | *** join/#openmoko Ozurr (n=ozurr@cpe-72-181-175-129.houston.res.rr.com) |
| 16:31.04 | CoreDump|home | well, wow |
| 16:31.16 | CoreDump|home | the UI appears to be incredibly well done |
| 16:33.47 | *** join/#openmoko some1_ (n=some1@p54A0C450.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:33.50 | PBeck | gamin: thanks :) |
| 16:34.02 | PBeck | the iphone has a fast picture slide |
| 16:35.01 | PBeck | the gui is cool and fast :) |
| 16:35.41 | gamin | Well, if I find enough developers to go with me, we shall make something similar cool. |
| 16:36.13 | PBeck | gamin: what exactly |
| 16:36.33 | gamin | a user interface that deserves the name |
| 16:36.33 | PBeck | gamin: really a funny video ^^ |
| 16:36.57 | PBeck | gamin: yes :) cool design and very fast :) |
| 16:37.07 | gamin | without geek crap, easy and intuitive |
| 16:37.10 | *** join/#openmoko j_ack (n=j_ack@p508D9BC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:37.42 | gamin | I don't like any of the openmoko ui libs, but then they are easy to be substituted |
| 16:38.15 | PBeck | yes intuitive is very important |
| 16:38.23 | gamin | especially the idea of stylus apps when there is no stylus is completely broken |
| 16:38.32 | PBeck | to connect to a wifi hotspot with wpa and co musst be easy |
| 16:38.38 | raster | they do give u a stylus |
| 16:38.42 | raster | its just really big |
| 16:38.46 | raster | and unable to be attached to the phone |
| 16:38.47 | raster | :) |
| 16:38.58 | PBeck | yes ... a stylus without a place :/ |
| 16:39.04 | raster | yeah |
| 16:39.08 | PBeck | finger software is the best way ;) |
| 16:39.13 | gamin | raster: exactly! thus it essentially means no stylus |
| 16:39.19 | raster | i think the neo will need to morph into 100% thumb driven |
| 16:39.27 | raster | itsd just nicer that way |
| 16:39.28 | PBeck | raster: but a cool stylus with laser and co ^^ |
| 16:39.31 | gamin | PBeck: I agree, as shown in the apple videos |
| 16:39.45 | PBeck | raster: yes that would be cool :) |
| 16:39.51 | PBeck | gamin: yes :D |
| 16:39.54 | raster | will get to that... |
| 16:39.57 | raster | but first |
| 16:40.02 | raster | need to replace most of the UI |
| 16:40.04 | thomasg__ | raster, but I can't imagine that all applications we will have in futurer can be driven by thumbs only |
| 16:40.10 | gamin | I have seen the nokia 800 and think the amount of buttons is nonsense |
| 16:40.19 | raster | thomasg__: maybe- but lets see |
| 16:40.24 | raster | i think it's possible |
| 16:40.29 | gamin | actually I think it is good the the neo has only two |
| 16:40.34 | PBeck | gamin: how much mhz have the iphone cpu? |
| 16:40.38 | raster | gamin: it has 2? |
| 16:40.39 | thomasg__ | as I said on the list before some days, I used my old nokia 7710 (the first only-touchscreen-smartphone) to make small drawings and so on |
| 16:40.55 | raster | only has 1 |
| 16:40.56 | thomasg__ | I'd like to have a basic (paint-like) graphics program on my neo, too |
| 16:40.56 | raster | power |
| 16:40.57 | raster | :) |
| 16:40.58 | PBeck | thomasg__: not all but many ;) |
| 16:41.06 | thomasg__ | PBeck, I agree |
| 16:41.07 | gamin | somewhere I read the iphone has probably a 533Mhz samsung arm |
| 16:41.17 | thomasg__ | gamin, yes, anadtech thinks so |
| 16:41.28 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 16:41.32 | gamin | raster: on/off button and kind of enter button |
| 16:41.34 | thomasg__ | it's a arm11 which probably has some cache, too |
| 16:41.41 | raster | gamin: wheres the enter button? |
| 16:41.43 | gamin | dunno what signal the second button emits |
| 16:41.56 | raster | i have one |
| 16:41.59 | raster | and theres only 1 button |
| 16:42.13 | thomasg__ | raster, isn't ther the power-button and another button on the side? |
| 16:42.20 | raster | only power |
| 16:42.25 | raster | nothign else |
| 16:42.28 | PBeck | thomasg__: dialer, contacts, photo, video, calendar, notes all can be driven by fingern, we need a good finger input method |
| 16:42.44 | thomasg__ | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Buttons |
| 16:42.46 | PBeck | raster: i think we have to buttons |
| 16:42.47 | raster | doing a good finger/thumb input method /vkbd is going to be hell |
| 16:42.49 | PBeck | one for power |
| 16:42.50 | thomasg__ | raster, look here, 2 buttons |
| 16:42.56 | raster | especially tyring not to trad over apple patents |
| 16:43.14 | PBeck | raster: without a stylus, yes |
| 16:43.29 | thomasg__ | raster, even apple couldn't do that good |
| 16:43.41 | thomasg__ | there already were many complaints about the vkbd |
| 16:44.01 | *** join/#openmoko jinesh (n=jineshkj@122.164.62.214) |
| 16:44.02 | thomasg__ | especially because they didn't get it to make it usable for more than 1 thumb :) |
| 16:44.08 | PBeck | vkbd = virtuell keyboard? |
| 16:44.10 | thomasg__ | yes |
| 16:44.13 | raster | oooh |
| 16:44.15 | raster | thats a BUTTON |
| 16:44.18 | thomasg__ | lol |
| 16:44.20 | raster | i thoguht it was an IR reciever |
| 16:44.33 | thomasg__ | ^^ |
| 16:44.35 | raster | on mine its not marked in any way |
| 16:44.39 | raster | just plain black |
| 16:44.41 | raster | shiny |
| 16:44.58 | gamin | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_AUX_button |
| 16:45.22 | raster | imho the moko phones should have more buttons |
| 16:45.23 | gamin | raster: how did you manage to get a neo already? |
| 16:45.27 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@205.233.53.236) |
| 16:45.31 | raster | like some volume up/down slider on the side |
| 16:45.33 | PBeck | which processor is in the iphone? |
| 16:45.36 | raster | a few others |
| 16:45.39 | raster | but not a heap of them |
| 16:45.43 | raster | PBeck: arm |
| 16:46.02 | PBeck | raster: how much mhz? |
| 16:46.04 | raster | gamin: i flew down to taiwan to pick it up |
| 16:46.08 | raster | PBeck: no idea |
| 16:46.09 | SpeedEvil | There are about 80 neos in the wild |
| 16:46.15 | SpeedEvil | Of various versions. |
| 16:46.15 | thomasg__ | raster, yeah, we were discussing that on the list already |
| 16:46.30 | thomasg__ | a up/down button on the side usable with the thumb would be perfect |
| 16:46.34 | raster | thomasg__: touchscreen is nice |
| 16:46.41 | raster | but real pushy clikcy buttons are good too |
| 16:46.48 | thomasg__ | exactly |
| 16:46.50 | *** join/#openmoko miip_ (n=miip@p54A578A8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:46.53 | raster | thomasg__: seen the blackberrys? |
| 16:47.03 | raster | theres a scrollwheel on the side |
| 16:47.07 | raster | very handy |
| 16:47.37 | raster | the recessed screen on the neo tho is a bit of a shame |
| 16:47.45 | raster | the plastic cover is too thick |
| 16:47.51 | raster | means screen corners are almost useless |
| 16:47.52 | PBeck | good gestures would be a idea to clear the mistake ;) |
| 16:47.52 | thomasg__ | raster, yes, it's nice |
| 16:47.57 | raster | (for touchies) |
| 16:47.58 | thomasg__ | but I had another idea |
| 16:48.07 | thomasg__ | I'm looking for the thread on the list, moment |
| 16:48.10 | PBeck | with good gestures we dont need so many buttons |
| 16:48.37 | raster | PBeck: no- gestures basically makes it much harder to use your screen |
| 16:48.46 | thomasg__ | I hate gestures |
| 16:48.53 | raster | you also have to learn them |
| 16:48.56 | raster | and then get them right |
| 16:48.57 | gamin | I don't like gestures either |
| 16:48.57 | PBeck | hum :P |
| 16:49.08 | gamin | except the ones on the iphone :) |
| 16:49.08 | raster | think about the ambiguity of them |
| 16:49.12 | thomasg__ | touchscreen is perfect to do one simple click and it doesnt matter where the button is |
| 16:49.14 | raster | i press mu finger doiwn |
| 16:49.16 | raster | drag up the screen |
| 16:49.18 | raster | release |
| 16:49.21 | raster | whjat can that mean? |
| 16:49.26 | raster | i may be pressing on a combo widget |
| 16:49.30 | PBeck | raster: we can use a hardwarebutton to activate the gestures |
| 16:49.32 | raster | where i press, drag to the itme to select |
| 16:49.33 | *** join/#openmoko Freed (n=jecsar@mac33-2-82-225-98-209.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:49.33 | raster | release |
| 16:49.41 | raster | could be that i want to hilight/select text |
| 16:49.45 | raster | i clould want to scroll... |
| 16:49.53 | gamin | raster: are you the rasterman? |
| 16:50.10 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@X02ed.x.pppool.de) |
| 16:50.15 | gamin | the enlightenment one? |
| 16:50.30 | raster | i'm the gunk between your toes |
| 16:50.36 | raster | :) |
| 16:50.38 | aloril | (script) http://openmoko.com changed: sizeof(diff -u)=327 |
| 16:50.47 | thomasg__ | raster, look at this thread: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-June/005931.html |
| 16:50.55 | raster | PBeck: we could - but there goers another hw button :) |
| 16:51.20 | thomasg__ | gamin, he is the enlightened one, yes ^^ |
| 16:51.29 | PBeck | raster: we have many options, i think we can get a good input method with the touchscreen ;) |
| 16:51.30 | aloril | just s/Micro USB/Mini USB/ |
| 16:51.31 | gamin | raster: I have long time loved enlightenment... |
| 16:51.34 | aloril | (in openmoko.com) |
| 16:51.43 | raster | tom that'd work well as long as u dont want tactile feedback :) |
| 16:51.46 | gamin | was really sorry when gnoem switched to sawfish |
| 16:51.46 | raster | also be very flexible |
| 16:51.53 | raster | PBeck: we can |
| 16:51.59 | raster | it just is going to be a lot of hard work |
| 16:52.01 | gamin | good to see that you are still alive :) |
| 16:52.02 | raster | and compromises |
| 16:52.10 | thomasg__ | raster, yes, for the touchpad you're right |
| 16:52.18 | thomasg__ | but I said something else in the thread |
| 16:52.20 | PBeck | raster: we have many good persons on the bord, we get the best phone on earth :> |
| 16:52.22 | thomasg__ | I want a rocker-switch |
| 16:52.24 | raster | gamin: still aliver and sticky |
| 16:52.31 | raster | personally i'm incredibly happy gnome switched |
| 16:52.36 | raster | it means i dont have the gnome baggae |
| 16:52.37 | PBeck | *on board |
| 16:52.42 | raster | like removing every config option in sight |
| 16:52.50 | thomasg__ | raster, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-June/005942.html |
| 16:52.53 | raster | becuase it "confuses our poor users!" |
| 16:53.06 | raster | god forbid |
| 16:53.08 | raster | a CHOICE |
| 16:53.16 | madwoota | users never make good choices |
| 16:53.29 | jeddy3 | press and drag anywhere on the screen is really useful, trying to hit a small scrollbar on the side of the screen is not fun |
| 16:53.41 | madwoota | so its impossible to anticipate that |
| 16:54.06 | raster | thomasg__: found it |
| 16:54.06 | jeddy3 | s/anywhere on the screen/anywhere on the screen TO SCROLL* :P |
| 16:54.10 | raster | strip i think i like more |
| 16:54.12 | PBeck | had anybody test the pim software? |
| 16:54.13 | raster | though |
| 16:54.32 | thomasg__ | however, we need something like this :) |
| 16:54.38 | raster | jeddy3: that presents a small problem |
| 16:54.52 | raster | jeddy3: what if i want to click drag and SELECT a bunch of text to copy/quote from an email? |
| 16:54.53 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-088-064-123-023.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:54.58 | raster | instead of scroll the email? :) |
| 16:55.00 | *** join/#openmoko wbx_ (n=wbx@gw.aurisp.de) |
| 16:55.02 | raster | thats when life gets hard |
| 16:55.05 | dff | who wants iPhone when there is openmoko |
| 16:55.08 | raster | when a gesture is ambiguous |
| 16:55.22 | thomasg__ | raster, do you know dasher as input method? |
| 16:55.30 | gamin | raster: well, yes and no concerning removing the options... I like it if things just work. However I loved E16, but some years back I gave up wating for E17 ;-))) |
| 16:55.41 | jeddy3 | it clashes with selecting text? yes, but i'd much rather would want it to scroll then going around selecting texts as soon as i touch the screen |
| 16:55.43 | raster | madwoota: its impossible to keep all users hapy with a limtied set of options - or none, so provide optiosn so users get to change things so it works better for them. |
| 16:55.57 | raster | thomasg__: name rings a bell- other than that - no idea. |
| 16:56.02 | thomasg__ | gamin, e17 is working very well and its cool to see how it improves every week :) |
| 16:56.09 | thomasg__ | raster: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ |
| 16:56.31 | raster | thomasg__: aaah that one |
| 16:56.33 | thomasg__ | maybe your distro has it in the repository, so you can simply try it |
| 16:56.36 | jeddy3 | i have a problem with selecting texts when i don't want to on a NORMAL LAPTOP, and i hate it :) |
| 16:56.50 | thomasg__ | its kinda weird, but its a really cool method for textinput |
| 16:56.58 | aloril | (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: New Oceans |
| 16:57.05 | thomasg__ | and that rocker-button or even a touchstrip would be very cool for dasher in 2d-mode |
| 16:57.07 | PBeck | raster: we need profiles, for all groups of users |
| 16:57.08 | madwoota | raaster - sarcasm ^ |
| 16:57.08 | CoreDump|home | raster: keep in mind that there are a great many users out there who prefer the clean / uncluttered Gnome interface out there. I personally can't stand the KDE crap w/ its 3 bazillion config options and sub-menues |
| 16:57.16 | raster | thomasg__: i looked at it a long time back and went "how the hell am i expected to use that sanely?" |
| 16:57.17 | raster | :) |
| 16:57.23 | thomasg__ | hehe |
| 16:57.33 | PBeck | a normal enduser need no terminal or other stuff |
| 16:57.34 | thomasg__ | I tried it some minutes and it works really good! |
| 16:57.40 | gamin | thomasg__: I'm using debian *g* |
| 16:57.57 | raster | madwoota: oooh <sarcasm>aha!</sarcasm> stuff :) |
| 16:58.07 | madwoota | :P |
| 16:58.09 | thomasg__ | gamin, theres a script by morlexus (also e-developer) which lets you easily build e17 and all it's components |
| 16:58.30 | raster | CoreDump|home: i can't stand gnomes idea that i am an idiot and cannot make my own decisions. :) |
| 16:58.44 | raster | of course it never occured to them to stick options in an advanced tab/panel/popup/dialog |
| 16:58.45 | thomasg__ | yeah, the same for me |
| 16:58.46 | raster | :) |
| 16:58.46 | gamin | thomasg__: my day just has 24 hours. there is so much I'd love to do... |
| 16:58.49 | CoreDump|home | the problem is that there is no sane middle-ground |
| 16:58.59 | thomasg__ | gamin, it costs you 15 seconds |
| 16:59.11 | thomasg__ | download easy_e17, chmod +x, ./easy_e17 -i - ready :) |
| 16:59.32 | raster | CoreDump|home: i believe there is |
| 16:59.40 | raster | CoreDump|home: present a simple easy to use ui by default |
| 16:59.40 | *** join/#openmoko jessta_ (n=jessta@203-214-62-195.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 16:59.45 | raster | with limited and targetted options |
| 16:59.55 | raster | then have an advanced "button" or tab or whatever |
| 16:59.58 | gamin | but I'm happy that it was me to point raster to the two button >:-) - I tiny, tiny thank you... |
| 17:00.00 | raster | where u can get to all the knobs |
| 17:00.11 | raster | if the word "advanced" frightens you |
| 17:00.13 | raster | then dont press it |
| 17:00.19 | gamin | for E16... |
| 17:00.29 | PBeck | raster: i think the way of gnome is good. You need not all features every day so you can faster work in many situations |
| 17:00.30 | raster | gamin: :) |
| 17:00.52 | raster | PBeck: d every day i basically never see all the features in e17 |
| 17:00.53 | jeddy3 | gnomes idea of do it RIGHT and make sane standards, instead of making every single thing customizable is IMHO nice, but sometimes they go too far |
| 17:00.55 | CoreDump|home | raster: well, nice idea but it probably wouldn't fly w/ KDE or Gnome =) |
| 17:00.56 | raster | or the confgi dialogs |
| 17:01.01 | raster | for most of my day they are unseen |
| 17:01.03 | raster | and unused |
| 17:01.03 | thomasg__ | I like they way xine do's that |
| 17:01.04 | raster | BUT |
| 17:01.08 | gamin | anybody here had a look into tinymail and modest? |
| 17:01.12 | raster | when i want to SET somethnig up the way i like |
| 17:01.15 | raster | i sit in them for a while |
| 17:01.18 | *** join/#openmoko ScaredyCat (n=ScaredyC@ACD1ECB7.ipt.aol.com) |
| 17:01.19 | raster | fiddling until it is just right |
| 17:01.25 | raster | though for e17 that isnt much |
| 17:01.25 | thomasg__ | xine says: user may do nothing what can confuse him. than you see the option "master of the whole universe" and you can do what you want :) |
| 17:01.30 | raster | as it comes out of the box the way i like it |
| 17:01.32 | raster | because i code it |
| 17:01.33 | raster | :) |
| 17:02.19 | jeddy3 | :D |
| 17:02.20 | raster | CoreDump|home: yup - thus why i dont use gnome or kde |
| 17:02.24 | raster | one of many reasons |
| 17:02.25 | raster | :) |
| 17:02.37 | raster | my gui does what i want it to |
| 17:02.39 | raster | the way i want |
| 17:02.42 | ScaredyCat | jouston.... |
| 17:02.48 | raster | and damnit - if it doesnt - i make it :) |
| 17:02.54 | raster | its just a matter of code |
| 17:02.55 | raster | :) |
| 17:03.12 | raster | jeddy3: and i agree with the "just make it work" |
| 17:03.12 | CoreDump|home | of course, but not every one has the luxury of running his own DE =) |
| 17:03.22 | raster | but MY idea of "work" and yours may be radically different |
| 17:03.24 | raster | egt |
| 17:03.35 | raster | your idea of a small font is probably 4 times bigger than my idea of a small font |
| 17:03.41 | raster | as i have better than 20/20 vision |
| 17:03.50 | raster | i can see and read miniscule text with ease |
| 17:03.53 | raster | i lik eit |
| 17:03.58 | raster | as i cvan cram lots of text on my screen |
| 17:03.59 | *** join/#openmoko ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) |
| 17:04.08 | raster | and thus avoid scrolling around and losing context |
| 17:04.08 | raster | but |
| 17:04.14 | raster | a ui that assumes i am a blind bat |
| 17:04.22 | raster | and i need my text no smaller than size C |
| 17:04.29 | raster | where i really want it size C/4 |
| 17:04.33 | raster | is incredibly annoying |
| 17:04.40 | raster | it may fit your idea of "just works" |
| 17:04.41 | raster | but not mine |
| 17:04.44 | jeddy3 | hehe, i can imagine :) |
| 17:04.45 | raster | that is a simple example |
| 17:04.49 | raster | it expands |
| 17:05.06 | raster | thats is why i believe people should have options they can twiddle |
| 17:05.12 | raster | people are inherently different |
| 17:05.15 | raster | you like pink |
| 17:05.17 | jeddy3 | of course, you need to be ABLE to config it somewhere if it just doesn't cut it for you |
| 17:05.18 | raster | i like blue |
| 17:05.20 | raster | etc. |
| 17:05.43 | raster | jeddy3: yup. the problem is that gnome is in the business of removing that |
| 17:05.51 | raster | and that is annoying |
| 17:06.08 | raster | with some false premise that completely removing a config option |
| 17:06.09 | jeddy3 | raster, sometimes really annoyin, yes |
| 17:06.39 | raster | (a llto of options have gone - u cant just go to some cmd-line thing to swizzle them - and even if u can - u have no idea the option even exists) |
| 17:07.12 | raster | anyway |
| 17:07.15 | raster | options == good |
| 17:07.16 | raster | imho |
| 17:07.23 | raster | the trick is: |
| 17:07.31 | raster | 1. make stuff "just work" as opften as possible |
| 17:07.53 | jeddy3 | but the other way of "hey lets make it configurable so we don't need to think about how we should implement it" is really annoying to |
| 17:07.55 | raster | 2. present basic options in a simple format to the user by default |
| 17:08.02 | raster | 3. provide a way to getting to all the options |
| 17:08.08 | raster | in an "advanced" mode" |
| 17:08.21 | raster | jeddy3: sure! that is bad too |
| 17:08.22 | gamin | agree abso |
| 17:08.24 | jeddy3 | raster, yes thats a sane aproach |
| 17:08.25 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@205.233.53.236) |
| 17:08.34 | raster | i definitely would not criticize anyone for making that happen |
| 17:08.46 | raster | hell i stop myself and other develoeprs from just adding raw options all the time |
| 17:08.48 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081D043.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:08.49 | raster | i like to go |
| 17:09.19 | gamin | what i always see are people outside the geek world, i.e my parents.... |
| 17:09.20 | raster | "stand back and think - WHY are u adding an option - can u make it work withotu needing one? is your option just a symptom of something else that should be improved?" |
| 17:09.21 | raster | etc. |
| 17:09.30 | raster | add the option when u need to |
| 17:09.34 | raster | or there is a good reason |
| 17:09.53 | jeddy3 | raster, absolutely agree |
| 17:09.58 | raster | but |
| 17:10.03 | raster | dont avoid an option |
| 17:10.04 | raster | or remove them |
| 17:10.11 | raster | if u have competing points of view |
| 17:10.13 | raster | eg |
| 17:10.17 | raster | click to focus vs pointer focus |
| 17:10.34 | raster | i HATE clikc to focus |
| 17:10.34 | raster | it drives me nuts |
| 17:10.34 | gamin | lol |
| 17:10.35 | gamin | me too |
| 17:10.40 | raster | make me want to kill people |
| 17:10.49 | gamin | rofl |
| 17:10.50 | raster | a ui that removed the ability to have pointer focus |
| 17:10.53 | raster | and set it up easily |
| 17:11.17 | raster | would have me coming down on them with small hand-held thermonuclear devices |
| 17:11.24 | raster | if i was forced to use such a gui |
| 17:11.26 | *** join/#openmoko ossman (n=drzeus@85.8.24.16.se.wasadata.net) |
| 17:11.55 | madwoota | i prefer a gui that doesnt need a mouse |
| 17:12.02 | gamin | I'm forced to use windows once a month and I strongly agree.. |
| 17:12.06 | madwoota | course, thats kinda what guis are for, so i just sit on cli all day |
| 17:12.07 | madwoota | hehe |
| 17:12.23 | raster | hhehe |
| 17:12.35 | raster | the neo will be a challeng for u |
| 17:12.37 | raster | :) |
| 17:12.37 | madwoota | browsers are the worst mouse-abusers |
| 17:12.39 | raster | challenge |
| 17:12.40 | raster | :) |
| 17:12.57 | gamin | raster: absolutely, just these *two* buttons :) |
| 17:13.07 | raster | well |
| 17:13.09 | thomasg__ | madwoota, I recommend links :) |
| 17:13.19 | raster | if the power butotn werent recessed and hard to press |
| 17:13.22 | thomasg__ | you don't need a mouse there ^^ |
| 17:13.23 | madwoota | thomasg - i agree :P |
| 17:13.24 | gamin | actually afaik the on/off emits different signals depending on lenght of press |
| 17:13.25 | raster | u could tap out morse code |
| 17:13.27 | raster | or binary |
| 17:13.34 | raster | to indicate the keycodes to press... |
| 17:13.35 | raster | :) |
| 17:13.57 | gamin | morse code for sms - *lol* |
| 17:14.05 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@p5497DE53.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:14.17 | madwoota | a neo will obviously be a pointer controlled device, so you expect to be using that |
| 17:14.24 | gamin | great idea, I will just start to refresh my skills.. |
| 17:14.43 | madwoota | keyboards are faster on a pc, so forcing people to use mice is silly imho |
| 17:14.47 | thomasg__ | raster, if you know the codes, I think you can be faster morsing ascii than typing on an small osk :) |
| 17:15.11 | thomasg__ | madwoota, imho the mouse is a good thing |
| 17:15.12 | gamin | thomasg__: only if you have a really good button |
| 17:15.20 | raster | madwoota: dunno - i find my mouse really fast |
| 17:15.22 | raster | but then again |
| 17:15.23 | thomasg__ | and as e17-user the mouse can be handeled really fast |
| 17:15.27 | raster | i grew up with a mouse in my hand |
| 17:15.28 | raster | :) |
| 17:15.38 | raster | i can draw as well with a mouser as i can with a pen |
| 17:15.47 | thomasg__ | -.- |
| 17:15.50 | thomasg__ | I want, too! |
| 17:15.50 | madwoota | a mouse has its place ... like doom, quake, etc :P |
| 17:15.56 | thomasg__ | cannot draw using a mouse :( |
| 17:16.07 | raster | it takes lots of practice |
| 17:16.09 | raster | :) |
| 17:16.12 | madwoota | drawing ? wassat ? :) |
| 17:16.21 | raster | indeed |
| 17:16.27 | thomasg__ | touchpads really suck |
| 17:16.29 | raster | mouse > touchpad |
| 17:16.34 | thomasg__ | but ibm's trackpoint is damn great! |
| 17:16.44 | raster | though the neo |
| 17:16.46 | gamin | mouse > trackpoint > touchpad |
| 17:16.46 | raster | having a touchscreen |
| 17:16.58 | raster | effectivley is a big touchpad on top of the screen |
| 17:17.00 | raster | ... |
| 17:17.03 | raster | so need to live with it |
| 17:17.06 | thomasg__ | maybe not as good as a mouse, but it kills some big disadvantages of mouses and touchpads |
| 17:17.09 | Ycros | not really |
| 17:17.33 | Ycros | a touchpad is different in that you're applying relative movements to a mouse cursor |
| 17:17.55 | Ycros | a touchscreen lets you position the cursor wherever you touch it |
| 17:18.06 | ScaredyCat | ././ |
| 17:18.15 | gamin | actually I loved the trackballs |
| 17:18.18 | thomasg__ | I guess we all know this :) |
| 17:18.41 | gamin | but trackballs have vanished a decade ago :( |
| 17:18.43 | thomasg__ | gamin, well, trackballs are similar to the trackpoint but with one of the big mouse/touchpad disadvantages |
| 17:18.57 | thomasg__ | you need do reposition your hand/finger |
| 17:19.32 | thomasg__ | and you don't need to do that on a trackpoint. another big advantage is that the trackpoint can be small enough to fit on the keyboard, so you can let your hands on the keyboard |
| 17:19.58 | gamin | I have never got up to the speed with trackpoints and definitely with pads that I was able to achieve with the balls |
| 17:20.19 | raster | actually the blackberry pearl has a trabckall |
| 17:20.22 | raster | a miniature one |
| 17:20.23 | thomasg__ | yes, it does |
| 17:20.26 | raster | above the kbd |
| 17:20.29 | raster | its really nice |
| 17:20.37 | gamin | raster: so I'm really looking forward what is comig from you |
| 17:20.48 | raster | i'd consider even suggesting future openmoko phones have it |
| 17:20.54 | gamin | coming even |
| 17:20.56 | raster | just as a secondary form of input |
| 17:20.59 | raster | in all dimansions |
| 17:21.03 | thomasg__ | it's nice, yes. they replaced the usual joystick (damn, what a relict in our time! ^^) or 2-axis-wipe with it |
| 17:21.07 | raster | gamin: for now - expect e17 to be more matchboxy |
| 17:21.15 | raster | get at least a primitive virtual kbd |
| 17:21.24 | raster | and some main menu launcher module |
| 17:21.38 | gamin | actually I like the osk's |
| 17:21.40 | raster | the rest is simply config |
| 17:21.55 | raster | will need to go from there |
| 17:21.58 | thomasg__ | there's a primitive vkbd :) |
| 17:22.04 | gamin | I'm quite fast with them - haing used them with familiar for some years now |
| 17:22.09 | thomasg__ | but w/o scaling support, so useless for the neo |
| 17:22.24 | raster | thomasg__: need to implement that |
| 17:22.32 | gamin | the apple osk is very cool |
| 17:22.38 | raster | but chances are i want to try something a bit more radical |
| 17:22.48 | raster | so i'll buidl somethign that just manages to function "just enough" to work |
| 17:22.53 | raster | then rip it apart over time |
| 17:23.20 | raster | the neo has a tiny screen tho |
| 17:23.33 | raster | a thumb doign typing is a challenge... at best |
| 17:23.44 | raster | almsot impossible to get it working right more likely |
| 17:23.47 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 17:23.59 | SpeedEvil | It's impossible to do one movement = one unique char |
| 17:24.02 | gamin | hmm, probably a 3,5" with less resolution is a gain... |
| 17:24.05 | thomasg__ | well, the thub has the worst form it could have for typing :) |
| 17:24.18 | thomasg__ | why the hell we do not have our little finger on the position the thumb has?! :) |
| 17:24.20 | raster | yup |
| 17:24.26 | raster | but giveh how u hold something |
| 17:24.30 | raster | its the best candidate |
| 17:24.41 | thomasg__ | well, we are in the information century :) |
| 17:24.58 | thomasg__ | evolution is to slow for us |
| 17:25.02 | raster | hehehe |
| 17:25.14 | raster | driect-to-brain interfaces are next... |
| 17:25.15 | raster | :) |
| 17:25.27 | thomasg__ | lol |
| 17:25.36 | SpeedEvil | raster: You can be the alpha tester for brain interfaces. |
| 17:25.38 | thomasg__ | SpeedEvil, and a smaller head |
| 17:25.49 | thomasg__ | so they can get their had into the ass of steve jobs :P |
| 17:26.02 | thomasg__ | *hea |
| 17:26.08 | thomasg__ | fuck... *head |
| 17:26.39 | Sup3rkiddo | ew |
| 17:26.56 | Basheri | thomasg__: Well, they can do it already quite nicely |
| 17:27.15 | ScaredyCat | iTards |
| 17:27.26 | SpeedEvil | Jobse! |
| 17:27.37 | raster | thomasg__: steve's arse is already wide and flappy from all the heads crammed up it already :) |
| 17:27.42 | thomasg__ | lol |
| 17:27.44 | nox-Hand | counter |
| 17:27.44 | aloril | (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 18:32:15 (8.772±1.0 days) (1654;242) |
| 17:28.16 | *** part/#openmoko fastPrint (i=fastPrin@59-115-228-161.dynamic.hinet.net) |
| 17:28.34 | zecke | s/what/which/ |
| 17:28.54 | woglinde | sure php? |
| 17:28.56 | woglinde | not asp? |
| 17:29.06 | gamin | raster, you are still in tokyo? |
| 17:29.11 | thomasg__ | hm, I need to be fast, to get one. could imagine that the 1k devices are ordered fast |
| 17:29.18 | raster | yup |
| 17:29.27 | zecke | woglinde: ah, I can test uclibc on my shark |
| 17:29.29 | gamin | must be early morning there? |
| 17:29.40 | woglinde | zecke wrong channel |
| 17:29.41 | raster | yup |
| 17:29.44 | raster | 2:30am |
| 17:29.46 | raster | time to snooze |
| 17:30.00 | raster | i have a "embeddeD" layout module to hack up tomorrow |
| 17:30.13 | raster | to enforce "maximized" windows |
| 17:30.17 | raster | on everything |
| 17:30.20 | raster | (except dialogs) |
| 17:31.00 | raster | snooz! |
| 17:31.18 | thomasg__ | I'm glad that morlenxus wrote the patch to disable those nasty "do you really want to..."-dialogs :) |
| 17:31.47 | [psy] | do you really want to apply this patch? ;) |
| 17:32.01 | gamin | yahoo, I met raster - *g* |
| 17:32.05 | Basheri | :D |
| 17:32.23 | woglinde | lol |
| 17:32.32 | gamin | must have been befor 2000 that I used E16 |
| 17:32.57 | ScaredyCat | .##//.//. |
| 17:33.36 | PBeck | hum i dont find any information about the iphone cpu |
| 17:33.44 | PBeck | only that its a arm is |
| 17:34.03 | gamin | PBeck: there are several people that have already dissected it. |
| 17:34.07 | gamin | loook /. |
| 17:34.17 | zecke | PBeck: check the pictures |
| 17:34.23 | gamin | I think anandtech has a review |
| 17:34.24 | thomasg__ | well, they let little chinese kids paint their logo on the arm chip |
| 17:34.30 | *** join/#openmoko gdiebel (n=gdiebel@adsl-71-150-249-102.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:34.36 | thomasg__ | so you can't see what it is exactly |
| 17:34.58 | gamin | http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/06/29/first.iphone.disassembly/ |
| 17:35.32 | gamin | http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3026 |
| 17:35.57 | ynezz | first unlocker... |
| 17:36.05 | ynezz | first linux boot... |
| 17:36.14 | ynezz | same story again :p |
| 17:36.16 | thomasg__ | every time the same story :) |
| 17:36.49 | gamin | ynezz: I'd just be happy with apple's freebsd |
| 17:37.09 | gamin | the user interface is really cool |
| 17:37.19 | ynezz | it's running freebsd? |
| 17:37.32 | gamin | ynezz: osX is some kind of bsd |
| 17:37.33 | PBeck | ok that mean 400 or 460 mhz |
| 17:37.36 | thomasg__ | it's running a mach kernel |
| 17:37.41 | ynezz | hm |
| 17:37.48 | thomasg__ | so no bsd |
| 17:37.54 | gamin | ohh |
| 17:38.03 | *** join/#openmoko gdiebel (n=gdiebel@adsl-71-150-249-102.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:38.15 | PBeck | ok i think openmoko on the neo can be so fast how the iphone is :P |
| 17:38.16 | gamin | tannenbaum will be happy then |
| 17:38.29 | thomasg__ | well, that's not fully correct |
| 17:38.42 | thomasg__ | it's bsd based (4.4BSD) but it has a mach kernel |
| 17:38.48 | gamin | PBeck: with the 2D/3d accel probably yes |
| 17:39.00 | ynezz | but no multitap... |
| 17:39.22 | gamin | and no funky ui |
| 17:39.32 | gamin | and no gesture scroll |
| 17:39.40 | thomasg__ | imho the iphone gui looks good, but it's pretty uninteresting |
| 17:39.42 | PBeck | hm i think that will be only a softwareproblem? |
| 17:39.54 | *** join/#openmoko waecky (n=waecky@p549CF945.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:39.57 | gamin | and no automatic switch between portrait/landscape |
| 17:40.17 | gamin | PBeck: rewriting lots of widgets.... |
| 17:40.21 | waecky | hey |
| 17:40.36 | thomasg__ | I already said that before some hours: some guys invented the scrollbar to be able to go from top down (wherever this is) with ONE move. the iphone needs 2, 5, 20, 50 moves, however |
| 17:40.41 | mjr | gamin, GTA02 can likely switch... |
| 17:41.23 | thomasg__ | well see how e17 performs :) |
| 17:41.24 | gamin | mjr: yes, but it needs lots of coding to have everything support it |
| 17:41.45 | PBeck | gamin: can the touchscreen of the neo multitap? |
| 17:41.46 | gamin | I wonder what time resolution the accels will have |
| 17:41.53 | gamin | PBeck: afaik no |
| 17:42.14 | mjr | You don't need to have everything support rotation, just randr away. And see apps get totally confused about the layout, but then you can turn the phone back ;P |
| 17:42.30 | SpeedEvil | gamin: it depends. |
| 17:42.34 | *** join/#openmoko prisoner1 (n=poster@pool-72-70-163-224.hrbgpa.east.verizon.net) |
| 17:42.45 | gamin | to integrate of the acceleration you need to know it every milli second |
| 17:42.46 | SpeedEvil | gamin: the ones mentioned on the mailing list have about 7 bit resolution. |
| 17:42.59 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@p5497DE53.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:42.59 | SpeedEvil | gamin: the best in class have about 12 |
| 17:43.02 | SpeedEvil | (of 1G) |
| 17:43.05 | gamin | SpeedEvil: not that much |
| 17:43.18 | SpeedEvil | Basically. |
| 17:43.36 | SpeedEvil | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals |
| 17:43.41 | SpeedEvil | That much. |
| 17:44.01 | SpeedEvil | Well - 11/12 |
| 17:44.20 | gamin | SpeedEvil: thanks for the link - I have studied physics :) |
| 17:44.41 | SpeedEvil | Yes - however unless youve studied datasheets... |
| 17:45.25 | gamin | well, the openmoko ui widgets do not really rock... |
| 17:46.04 | gamin | but then Michael is a qt-fan... |
| 17:46.18 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973/it]] |
| 17:46.34 | gamin | Probably we are going to see kopenmoko :-P |
| 17:46.45 | gamin | like kubuntu |
| 17:47.15 | SpeedEvil | You're welcome to port it to your UI of choice :) |
| 17:47.25 | gamin | whois kopenmoko.org |
| 17:47.25 | gamin | NOT FOUND |
| 17:47.39 | gamin | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:47.39 | gamin | No match for "KOPENMOKO.COM". |
| 17:47.42 | gamin | :) |
| 17:47.50 | SpeedEvil | whois fvwm95openmoko.com |
| 17:47.52 | SpeedEvil | NOT FOUND |
| 17:47.55 | gamin | lol |
| 17:48.02 | thomasg__ | www.fluxmoko.org |
| 17:48.20 | gamin | win311moko.org |
| 17:48.34 | gamin | dos62moko.org |
| 17:48.37 | gamin | :P |
| 17:48.38 | *** join/#openmoko Aria (n=aredride@224x198.ouraynet.com) |
| 17:48.41 | SpeedEvil | GEMmoko |
| 17:48.45 | *** join/#openmoko Aria_ (n=aredride@224x198.ouraynet.com) |
| 17:48.55 | SpeedEvil | Win1Moko might almost make sense. |
| 17:49.02 | SpeedEvil | You don't need overlapping windows. |
| 17:49.05 | gamin | drdosmoko.com |
| 17:49.26 | gamin | zx81moko.com |
| 17:49.38 | SpeedEvil | gamin: We've got the keyboard feel down! |
| 17:50.38 | ScaredyCat | does the touchscreen work in xnest xoo ... ? |
| 17:51.16 | nox-Hand | Where is the "NOOOOO :O" petition at the prices? :P |
| 17:51.19 | *** join/#openmoko Moo^^ (n=moo@oul110-gw4.netplaza.fi) |
| 17:51.26 | PBeck | hum i need a dev environment ^^ |
| 17:51.57 | SpeedEvil | Do dev, and you'd prolly get a cheap one. |
| 17:52.04 | thomasg__ | nox-Hand, why? $300 is a pretty good price |
| 17:52.06 | ScaredyCat | pfft, you have 3 months, |
| 17:52.08 | nox-Hand | SpeedEvil: I can't code :-( |
| 17:52.08 | SpeedEvil | If they have a clue |
| 17:52.23 | PBeck | thomasg__: gta_02 .. |
| 17:52.29 | ScaredyCat | you can't save 100 usd in 3 months? |
| 17:52.31 | SpeedEvil | 2 months learn to code, one month to code. |
| 17:52.33 | thomasg__ | ok, but imho $450 for THIS device is also a good price |
| 17:52.36 | gamin | nox-Hand: learn it |
| 17:52.43 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: Yeah, but I require Wi-Fi to be able to use an app I wish to make |
| 17:52.48 | gamin | thomasg__: disagree |
| 17:52.52 | nox-Hand | And up till then I am going to be working up on it |
| 17:53.01 | gamin | asus has a laptop for 190$ |
| 17:53.03 | PBeck | nox-Hand: which? |
| 17:53.09 | PBeck | nox-Hand: kismet? :> |
| 17:53.21 | nox-Hand | PBeck: What, kismet, is that a language? :P |
| 17:53.33 | nox-Hand | Dunno yet, but was thikning Python |
| 17:53.49 | nox-Hand | And then I would like to make a gui MPD control program |
| 17:54.00 | thomasg__ | well, this dollars doesnt really matter for me, but for a student and so on its a lot of money, thats correct. but here in germany a good smartphone starts at $500 |
| 17:54.03 | gamin | python shall be well supported as mickey loves it |
| 17:54.06 | nox-Hand | So you can over wiFi control your music all over th ehouse |
| 17:54.29 | thomasg__ | nox-Hand, yeah, I will also use the neo with wifi as super-remote :) |
| 17:54.43 | ScaredyCat | btremote |
| 17:54.44 | thomasg__ | looking forward to running the emphasis (etk) mpd-client on it |
| 17:55.02 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: But if it's going to be 450 USD for the starter pack with WiFi :| |
| 17:55.12 | PBeck | nox-Hand: nice |
| 17:55.35 | Aria | Though I was thinking of using an N770 or N800 more |
| 17:55.40 | gamin | thomasg__: imho they just got greedy. they could sell it for 100$ less |
| 17:55.54 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: I was considering trying to find a way to port Sonata MPD to the Moko |
| 17:55.58 | gamin | and the software will suck for at least another year |
| 17:56.06 | thomasg__ | gamin, might be. but I think the development costs much money |
| 17:56.29 | thomasg__ | and the opensource support would be worth the higher price imho |
| 17:56.37 | gamin | thomasg__: that is just Seans blabla |
| 17:56.57 | thomasg__ | gamin, didn't here sean telling something about this, that was only my opinion |
| 17:57.13 | nox-Hand | ... but I am all sad about possibly not being able to afford it :[ |
| 17:57.23 | gamin | sean said somewhere the the phone costs 3M$ |
| 17:58.44 | gamin | the iphone is 499 and the neo "sucks" compared to it - except for geeks |
| 17:58.56 | thomasg__ | thats totally wrong! |
| 17:59.06 | gamin | why |
| 17:59.12 | thomasg__ | the iphone is compined with a plan! the plans start at about $60 per month! |
| 17:59.24 | gamin | yes, with unlimited date |
| 17:59.27 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@213-140-6-101.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 17:59.28 | gamin | data even |
| 17:59.36 | gamin | you always need a plan |
| 17:59.36 | thomasg__ | in germany you pay about 40% for a phone with a $30 plan |
| 17:59.55 | gamin | and in france you don't even get a plan like that |
| 18:00.13 | gamin | no chance here to have data and phone on the same sim card |
| 18:00.23 | gamin | execpt for pharmacy prices |
| 18:00.32 | thomasg__ | no problem in germany |
| 18:00.35 | gamin | like one MB for 15 EUR |
| 18:00.39 | thomasg__ | but data's also expensive here |
| 18:00.41 | Basheri | "There's a four-ring 2.5mm stereo jack which provides connectivity to old-fashioned wired headsets. (An L shaped 3.5mm adapter is planned for later.)" Does 'later' mean GTA02 or what? |
| 18:01.45 | thomasg__ | think later means later :) |
| 18:01.48 | gamin | so 60$ is 45EUR: with data and minutes: great plan |
| 18:01.55 | Aria | Data in the US is usually expensive too, 'cept device-tied like Blackberry and iPhone |
| 18:01.59 | thomasg__ | gamin, but thats the states |
| 18:02.15 | thomasg__ | example: |
| 18:02.20 | gamin | italy is cool: 9GB for 25 EUR |
| 18:02.40 | Basheri | thomasg__: damn, that sucks =( |
| 18:02.41 | gamin | nox-Hand: but you get it for 300! |
| 18:03.00 | alphaone | gamin: not gta02 |
| 18:03.10 | thomasg__ | the average salary in germany is about 2500€. the avagerage in the states is about 2300$ (afaik) |
| 18:03.11 | nox-Hand | gamin: Not the one with WiFI |
| 18:03.48 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: Not all geeks are adults, and many attend school having a low amount of money for spare use |
| 18:03.57 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-088-064-123-023.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 18:04.01 | thomasg__ | nox-Hand, that's correct |
| 18:04.04 | Basheri | they can ask their parents =) |
| 18:04.18 | Basheri | or do summerjobs |
| 18:04.40 | thomasg__ | I was a geek when I was 14 and had no money, so I had to save every buck when I wanted to buy a new PC |
| 18:05.18 | Basheri | i think 450 is very reasonable price |
| 18:05.21 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: I am finally getting a laptop on Monday |
| 18:05.27 | thomasg__ | Basheri, yeah, I see it like you |
| 18:05.29 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: And my own PC is a 333mhz pII |
| 18:05.31 | nox-Hand | That's my server |
| 18:05.51 | nox-Hand | Basheri: And you can plausibly afford it |
| 18:05.59 | nox-Hand | Also, I don't see where the base package is useful |
| 18:06.10 | nox-Hand | I mean, a regular user should have most of the things on the power package |
| 18:06.18 | Basheri | umm, just buy some cheap-ass nokia |
| 18:06.47 | zecke | anyone with Gtk+ knowledge around? If one wants to fake expose_event's is there somethign to take care of? |
| 18:06.58 | Aria | signal_emit? |
| 18:07.02 | thomasg__ | nox-Hand, what's the difference between the p2 normal and advanced package? |
| 18:07.09 | gamin | okay: for 60$ at&t you get 450 minutes of talk daytime and 5000 minutes evening plus flatrate email and web. |
| 18:07.24 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: I said pII as in that's the processor in my server -_- |
| 18:07.35 | gamin | that will cost me in france about 400EUR/520$ per month |
| 18:07.44 | Basheri | :DDD |
| 18:07.46 | thomasg__ | nox-Hand, I know |
| 18:07.57 | thomasg__ | but you also said " I mean, a regular user should have most of the things on the power package" |
| 18:08.03 | thomasg__ | and thats what I am referring to |
| 18:08.17 | Basheri | gamin: 500 minutes of talk 17 euros (here in finland) |
| 18:08.20 | *** join/#openmoko Free_maN (n=freenux@gqp76-1-82-67-78-152.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:08.35 | gamin | Basheri: envy :) |
| 18:08.40 | Aria | Indeed. |
| 18:08.49 | Aria | That's $40+ here |
| 18:08.52 | *** join/#openmoko arw (i=familia@201.244.107.194) |
| 18:08.55 | thomasg__ | and look at t-mobile US, you get much more minutes there. 300 for $30 or so + many features |
| 18:09.00 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: As in the two batteries, and more space and other things. Looking over the list, yeah, okay, buying a ripoff nokia would be fine I guess |
| 18:09.22 | thomasg__ | nox-Hand, erm, I think on the list is only p1 with it's additional stuff? sure it will be the same in p2? |
| 18:09.30 | Aria | thomasg__: Those 'features' are usually locked down to the point of unusable |
| 18:10.07 | thomasg__ | Aria, what I meant was: free the whole weekend, free with 5 favourite numbers (MyFavs)... |
| 18:10.11 | Basheri | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:10.15 | Basheri | *29 |
| 18:10.16 | thomasg__ | that's the features, and they are really usable :) |
| 18:10.23 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: The phase two will have: * 802.11 b/g WiFi |
| 18:10.23 | nox-Hand | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:10.23 | nox-Hand | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:10.23 | nox-Hand | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:10.23 | nox-Hand | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:10.37 | *** join/#openmoko treY`dt (n=tpicou@c-69-143-215-199.hsd1.dc.comcast.net) |
| 18:10.38 | thomasg__ | I know that. and where are the accesoires? |
| 18:10.54 | nox-Hand | I want: Wifi - more Flash Ram and why not accelerometers? :D |
| 18:10.56 | thomasg__ | they are only in the phase1 section |
| 18:11.05 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: Yeah |
| 18:11.11 | thomasg__ | you will get this with the $450 basic-package |
| 18:11.19 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: I know |
| 18:11.27 | nox-Hand | But I was hoping 350-400 usd |
| 18:11.40 | thomasg__ | nox-Hand, I was, too |
| 18:11.50 | nox-Hand | This ads up to over 8000 danish kroner which is A LOT IMO |
| 18:11.56 | thomasg__ | but the new hardware sounds really cool, so I can imagine why it got more expensive |
| 18:12.25 | thomasg__ | well, maybe they'll change it |
| 18:12.27 | nox-Hand | Wait |
| 18:12.30 | nox-Hand | 2800* |
| 18:12.32 | nox-Hand | Typo :) |
| 18:12.45 | nox-Hand | thomasg__: I severely doubt it :( |
| 18:12.46 | thomasg__ | will see what the future brings. but even if the device would be $600: I'd buy it :) |
| 18:12.55 | nox-Hand | I mean, 2800 put's it up there with the other smartphones :O |
| 18:13.21 | thomasg__ | well, $450 means for germany €420. nokia wants €490 for their E61i |
| 18:13.22 | nox-Hand | In Danish stuff anyhgoot |
| 18:13.24 | nox-Hand | anyhoot |
| 18:13.57 | *** join/#openmoko Tronic (i=tronic@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe30fa00-139.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 18:14.02 | nox-Hand | Ah well |
| 18:14.07 | nox-Hand | I got family visit |
| 18:14.14 | nox-Hand | Should probably go pretend I am a social person |
| 18:15.10 | nox-Hand | bbl |
| 18:16.53 | Basheri | only thing that is bugging me is the lack of 3.5mm audio-out (well, also lack of UMTS/3G-support, but i can understand that) |
| 18:18.30 | Basheri | btw. need more videos of neo!!! ;) |
| 18:19.41 | miip_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:19.51 | miip | ... |
| 18:20.06 | thomasg__ | Basheri, imho 2.5mm is more reasonable |
| 18:20.19 | thomasg__ | 3.5 would be fine for headphones, but 2.5mm for phones |
| 18:20.29 | Basheri | but most headphones use 3.5 =( |
| 18:20.40 | Basheri | and i wanna listen to music |
| 18:20.42 | thomasg__ | good that the 2.5mm are robust enough for holding an adaptor |
| 18:20.43 | Basheri | :D |
| 18:21.35 | Basheri | Does it ship with headphones? |
| 18:22.31 | Basheri | guess i just have to open firefox and find out :P |
| 18:23.43 | Basheri | seems like it does |
| 18:24.14 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 18:27.05 | zecke | ~lart gtk |
| 18:27.05 | apt | shoves a crumpet down gtk's throat, happy now?! Huh? Want some JAM with that? |
| 18:27.45 | Aria | Ooh, crumpets. |
| 18:27.51 | Aria | Damn, now I have to go home and make some of those. |
| 18:27.59 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby-away (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 18:29.48 | *** join/#openmoko bubbi (i=Bubbi@2304ds1-gl.0.fullrate.dk) |
| 18:31.58 | *** join/#openmoko FuzzyCat (n=andy@81.187.78.218) |
| 18:32.12 | *** join/#openmoko Free_maN (n=freenux@gqp76-1-82-67-78-152.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:32.34 | Aria | Haha. "Only steve jobs could get people to stand in line for something that, well, you didn't need to wait in line for" |
| 18:32.46 | Aria | I hearts Ars |
| 18:33.15 | SuN | It's an obnoxious hype, regardless of the device. |
| 18:33.48 | Aria | Indeed. |
| 18:34.08 | nox-Hand | >_< |
| 18:34.29 | nox-Hand | Though admittedly, the iPhone software is incredibly well designed, it's closed nature is a shame ;) |
| 18:35.44 | Basheri | And you can't say that the iphone itself is ugly either |
| 18:36.03 | zell1983 | stay in line for a product |
| 18:36.05 | SuN | Oh it's not. |
| 18:36.06 | zell1983 | is stupid |
| 18:36.07 | nox-Hand | Basheri: agreed not |
| 18:36.08 | Aria | It's a decent device. Shame about the details. |
| 18:36.13 | *** join/#openmoko TimRiker (i=timr@205.233.55.201) |
| 18:36.14 | SuN | About as pretty as a Motorola E6, I guess :D |
| 18:39.50 | *** join/#openmoko Clint (n=Clint@thumb.scru.org) |
| 18:42.20 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 18:45.04 | *** join/#openmoko denis^d1 (n=Evi@p5B07CAD2.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:45.42 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:53.32 | *** join/#openmoko schonstal (n=schonsta@ash.osuosl.org) |
| 18:55.50 | *** join/#openmoko mindCrime (n=chatzill@cpe-065-190-188-124.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 19:01.16 | *** join/#openmoko xainam (n=xainam@dslb-088-066-034-012.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:02.17 | *** join/#openmoko rob__w (n=bob@X0d7d.x.pppool.de) |
| 19:03.19 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 19:08.06 | ScaredyCat | fghjkl |
| 19:08.45 | seemant | are you sure? |
| 19:09.01 | DerCorny | heh |
| 19:09.08 | ScaredyCat | bleh |
| 19:11.29 | *** join/#openmoko unarzna (i=hk69690@node1.cluster.cs.uta.fi) |
| 19:11.32 | *** join/#openmoko TeringTuby (n=maarten@162-117-dyn.ipact.nl) |
| 19:11.41 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck_ (n=PBeck@HSI-KBW-091-089-102-236.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 19:16.45 | denis^d1 | Yeah but producing the devices for the mass market with much more pieces makes the production cheaper |
| 19:17.11 | denis^d1 | It is normal that the production of 1000 pieces can't be that cheap |
| 19:17.23 | seemant | economies of scale |
| 19:17.27 | *** join/#openmoko Bingooo (n=MrBogus@dsl-tregw3-feaefb00-138.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 19:17.31 | Bingooo | hi there |
| 19:17.33 | denis^d1 | yeah definetly ;) |
| 19:18.10 | Bingooo | can anyone tell if can i install OpenMoko in a Windows Mobile 5(pocket pc)?? |
| 19:18.11 | aloril | Bingooo: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 19:18.42 | summatusmentis | Bingooo: depends on the hardware afaik |
| 19:18.53 | SpeedEvil | In theory yes. |
| 19:18.57 | SpeedEvil | In practice no. |
| 19:19.04 | SpeedEvil | Unless you port it yourself. |
| 19:19.10 | balrog-kun | Bingooo: yes, if you have a working Linux kernel for the device |
| 19:19.38 | balrog-kun | everything else is cross-platform |
| 19:19.38 | Bingooo | how do i get the linux kernel? |
| 19:20.00 | SpeedEvil | Bingooo: it's a case of if you have to ask, you can't do it. |
| 19:20.02 | Bingooo | I have Linux on my laptop and all my family desktops |
| 19:20.18 | balrog-kun | Bingooo: it's likely that you can't and that it would take an awful lot of work to write such a kernel |
| 19:20.19 | SpeedEvil | It is not remotely simple. |
| 19:20.24 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: well, if there's a project already underway(angstrom, familiar, etc.) |
| 19:20.34 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 19:20.51 | Bingooo | is it there any linux for windows mobile(pocket pc) |
| 19:20.52 | Bingooo | ? |
| 19:20.58 | summatusmentis | Bingooo: what's the model number on your pocket pc? |
| 19:20.59 | balrog-kun | Bingooo: yes |
| 19:21.05 | SpeedEvil | There is no one 'windows mobile'. |
| 19:21.08 | aloril2 | for example: faster CPU, 3G, keyboard, camera (at Nokia N95 level for example): easily >$100 more |
| 19:21.10 | balrog-kun | Bingooo: see http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/SupportedHandheldSummary for the extent to which Linux supports your device |
| 19:21.18 | *** join/#openmoko wookieface (n=benjamin@x1-6-00-03-2f-29-99-b9.k967.webspeed.dk) |
| 19:21.21 | SpeedEvil | There are many many different devices. |
| 19:21.25 | SpeedEvil | All incompatible |
| 19:21.42 | Bingooo | Fujitsu-Siemens Pocket Loxx N520 |
| 19:21.49 | Bingooo | loox |
| 19:22.05 | Bingooo | pocket loox N520 |
| 19:22.44 | balrog-kun | Bingooo: i'm afraid you're out of luck |
| 19:22.57 | Bingooo | damm |
| 19:23.01 | Bingooo | what waste |
| 19:23.06 | balrog-kun | C550 support is under development according to the wiki |
| 19:23.10 | Bingooo | hate MS |
| 19:23.16 | Bingooo | nice |
| 19:23.46 | balrog-kun | the handhelds.org wiki that is |
| 19:23.54 | balrog-kun | because OpenMoko is basically cross-platform |
| 19:24.06 | balrog-kun | so far as you have drivers for your device |
| 19:25.19 | Bingooo | damm i can't way for OpenMOko |
| 19:25.20 | *** join/#openmoko Aria_ (n=aredride@acrux.theinternetco.net) |
| 19:25.54 | Bingooo | i just hope there would be a Wifi and EDGE/3G/HSPDA |
| 19:26.08 | Bingooo | i would perfect |
| 19:26.11 | Bingooo | it |
| 19:26.27 | aloril2 | similar thing could be said about Advanced kit: if you need to ask, then you don't need it: go for Basic kit |
| 19:29.27 | aloril2 | Bingooo: maybe there is next year (wifi + 3G etc..) |
| 19:30.39 | Bingooo | i hope OpenMoko doesn't become like Neonode |
| 19:31.22 | Dvalin | neonode? |
| 19:32.02 | ScaredyCat | it vaished up its own arse |
| 19:32.11 | Bingooo | neonede was a nice phone project |
| 19:32.18 | aloril2 | Bingooo: did you look at faq? OpenMoko is already on other devices |
| 19:32.18 | ScaredyCat | s/vaished/vanished/ |
| 19:33.04 | DerCorny | neonode? they used windows ce, didnt they? |
| 19:33.36 | Bingooo | have a look @ http://www.gsmarena.com/neonode-phones-22.php |
| 19:33.54 | DerCorny | i dont think this will fail. a lot of really, really cool people working on this - and there are a shitload of people waiting for this |
| 19:34.59 | unarzna | so when there will be openmoko working in a iphone? |
| 19:36.10 | ScaredyCat | when hell freezes... |
| 19:36.50 | DerCorny | he, i sure wont help to port it |
| 19:38.15 | denis^d1 | why :D feard ? |
| 19:38.35 | denis^d1 | afraid of apples lawyers :D |
| 19:39.42 | ScaredyCat | what could they do |
| 19:39.56 | denis^d1 | Does somebody know if there is a interface for openMoko in developement using OpenGL ES ? (the mass market device will have a graphic chip suporting open gl es 1.1) |
| 19:40.08 | denis^d1 | Perhaps with the help of Clutter. |
| 19:40.18 | denis^d1 | http://www.clutter-project.org/ |
| 19:40.37 | unarzna | there is linux for ipod and i think apple lawyers haven't had a problem with that |
| 19:40.53 | denis^d1 | yeah thats right |
| 19:40.54 | ScaredyCat | there's bugger all they can do... |
| 19:41.09 | denis^d1 | I also got rockbox on my ipod nano |
| 19:41.09 | Bingooo | where is neo1973 made? |
| 19:41.15 | ScaredyCat | .tw |
| 19:41.26 | denis^d1 | in China is the production plant |
| 19:42.02 | DerCorny | denis^d1: no, i simply wont spend my money on a hyped, closed (with provider lock-in) and somewhat (apart a few "revolutionary" things) crappy product |
| 19:42.44 | denis^d1 | DerCorny: yeah that's right :> |
| 19:42.56 | denis^d1 | Just thought about the point after sending the message |
| 19:43.41 | denis^d1 | but it is GREAT :P ;) ( talking with the words of our god father mr steve jobs) |
| 19:44.35 | *** join/#openmoko lazlo (n=lazlo@dslb-084-063-035-028.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:44.43 | *** join/#openmoko PBeck (n=PBeck@unixboard/users/pbeck) |
| 19:44.57 | *** join/#openmoko Clint (n=Clint@thumb.scru.org) |
| 19:45.22 | *** join/#openmoko evanp (n=evan@c-71-58-251-56.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 19:46.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] |
| 19:48.47 | Bingooo | now i am sad |
| 19:49.01 | Bingooo | i can't get linux on wm5 |
| 19:52.13 | *** join/#openmoko rob_ (n=rob@ACB03D3D.ipt.aol.com) |
| 19:54.21 | *** join/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.38) |
| 19:54.46 | *** join/#openmoko MetaBookfoziS (n=huhh@dsl54009EA3.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 19:57.09 | *** part/#openmoko yveslu (n=yves@194.235.200.38) |
| 19:58.07 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (n=foobar@dslb-088-064-123-023.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:03.10 | DerCorny | somebody using fedora7 in here to build openmoko? |
| 20:07.54 | ruimoreira | DerCorny: hope you get better luck than i did |
| 20:10.08 | DerCorny | ruimoreira: where did it die for you? ncurses? |
| 20:10.14 | ruimoreira | yeap |
| 20:10.19 | DerCorny | damn |
| 20:10.52 | ruimoreira | the first to come up with an answer tells the other ok ? |
| 20:10.59 | ruimoreira | :P |
| 20:11.28 | Aria | What issues are you having? |
| 20:11.37 | DerCorny | ruimoreira: sure |
| 20:12.20 | ruimoreira | Aria: do you mean us ? |
| 20:12.28 | Aria | Yes. |
| 20:12.41 | Aria | I'm building on a modern RPMish distro. Not F7, but close enough to be useful. |
| 20:12.47 | ruimoreira | can't build development-image due to ngurses |
| 20:12.53 | ruimoreira | ncursrs |
| 20:12.53 | DerCorny | http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/board/thread.php?postid=26642 <- that one |
| 20:12.54 | ruimoreira | :S |
| 20:12.56 | ruimoreira | damn |
| 20:13.09 | DerCorny | their solution was to use fc6 |
| 20:13.11 | Dvalin | DerCorny: install ncurses-devel? |
| 20:13.27 | ruimoreira | i have that installed |
| 20:13.31 | ruimoreira | Dvalin: |
| 20:14.28 | DerCorny | i've that one installed, too |
| 20:14.38 | Dvalin | okay |
| 20:14.42 | DerCorny | but 5.6, not 5.4 |
| 20:15.16 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@213-140-6-101.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 20:16.56 | Aria | What's the 'tic' executable there? (I'm not working on that code at the moment, so it's not handy) |
| 20:17.02 | Aria | That's the terminfo compiler, ne? |
| 20:18.31 | DerCorny | manpage says so |
| 20:18.32 | *** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@70-41-160-76.cust.wildblue.net) |
| 20:18.35 | ScaredyCat | computer says no... *cough* |
| 20:19.28 | Aria | Whose tic is it? |
| 20:19.28 | Aria | The devel kit's, or Fedora's? |
| 20:19.34 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_1aptop (n=ewanm89@host81-159-107-181.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 20:19.43 | ruimoreira | fedora's i guess |
| 20:20.03 | Aria | 'kay. Knowing would help figure it out. (does 'tic' run when you run just that?) |
| 20:20.03 | aloril | Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (link to FAQ in wiki) |
| 20:20.18 | *** join/#openmoko jipp (n=jip@kwark.org) |
| 20:20.56 | ruimoreira | Aria yes it runs it displays the options |
| 20:21.05 | Aria | 'kay. Hrm |
| 20:21.17 | Aria | Lessee here. |
| 20:21.23 | *** join/#openmoko nosyjoe (n=philipp@p5497E7BF.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:21.29 | Aria | Got a link to what I'd need to start with to reproduce it? |
| 20:21.49 | Aria | I'm in the middle of building host copies of the moko libs, so not running into the same problems |
| 20:22.46 | DerCorny | i renamed fedora's tic ... still fails |
| 20:23.20 | Aria | 'kay. So it's internal to the dev kit. Fun. I hate it when people package dependencies rather than referring. |
| 20:23.57 | DerCorny | ruimoreira: are you running x86_64? |
| 20:24.01 | ruimoreira | nop |
| 20:24.18 | ruimoreira | 32 bit here :D |
| 20:24.48 | DerCorny | k, then thats not one of the strange 64bit probs |
| 20:25.08 | *** part/#openmoko denis^d1 (n=Evi@p5B07CAD2.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:25.15 | Aria | Yeah, missing symbol I wouldn't expect to be |
| 20:25.50 | ruimoreira | putting it to pastebin |
| 20:25.50 | ruimoreira | ... |
| 20:25.52 | ruimoreira | the error |
| 20:25.59 | *** join/#openmoko MeTa[AwAy] (n=huhh@dsl51B6AB16.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 20:27.05 | ruimoreira | http://pastebin.com/939671 |
| 20:29.55 | DerCorny | http://projects.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/openembedded-issues/2007-June/004240.html |
| 20:30.33 | ruimoreira | hum.... |
| 20:30.34 | ruimoreira | :) |
| 20:30.58 | *** join/#openmoko cga (n=cga@213-140-6-101.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 20:31.50 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host81-159-107-181.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 20:31.51 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=rd@toi.yeu.phu.nu) |
| 20:31.51 | Aria | Ah, nice. That looks like the sort of hack I would create. |
| 20:32.45 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@141.80-202-161.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:33.27 | ruimoreira | where should i put the work-around ? |
| 20:33.54 | DerCorny | command-line, before the commands you use to build the image or whatever |
| 20:34.07 | ruimoreira | ok |
| 20:34.08 | thomasg__ | the photos from heise are very nice: http://www.heise.de/bilder/91868/1/1 (2/1 3/1 4/1) |
| 20:34.16 | ruimoreira | should it be exported ? |
| 20:34.21 | DerCorny | seems like it works for me |
| 20:34.37 | DerCorny | yeah |
| 20:35.17 | rd_ | yo |
| 20:35.35 | DerCorny | wah, the more pictures i see the more i want it |
| 20:36.26 | *** join/#openmoko slider (n=sebastia@pD9576868.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:36.32 | Aria | ruimoreira: exported or provided on the same line as the command |
| 20:37.07 | ruimoreira | ok |
| 20:37.09 | ruimoreira | thks |
| 20:40.09 | DerCorny | *sigh* i really hate boards ... google often has a hard time to index them. now we have a hackish solution for their problem and i cant send them a quick headsup without being forced to sign up |
| 20:40.52 | ewon | anyone have a palm pda? |
| 20:41.06 | ewon | preferably a colour one |
| 20:41.48 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host81-159-107-181.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 20:41.55 | balrog-kun | ewon: ask a more precise question :) |
| 20:43.16 | ewon | anyone here have a zire 71 or better they want to test a superwaba app I wrote? |
| 20:43.21 | ewon | can't find my sync cable :( |
| 20:43.53 | balrog-kun | oh, i don't have superwaba installed |
| 20:44.12 | balrog-kun | and don't have a sync cable either but i always used the SD card |
| 20:44.50 | ewon | can you run stuff off the SD card? |
| 20:45.04 | ewon | I have a Zire71, never seen that |
| 20:45.12 | balrog-kun | sure |
| 20:45.47 | balrog-kun | i actually never used any kind of sync cable, the plug was broken since i got the device |
| 20:45.57 | ewon | I see |
| 20:46.09 | ewon | is it some form of hack, or standard functionality |
| 20:46.41 | balrog-kun | standard functionality afaik, you just need to remember to copy the .prc's to the right directory on the card |
| 20:48.13 | ewon | excellent, thanks |
| 20:48.56 | *** join/#openmoko cathal (n=cathal@89.100.101.244) |
| 20:49.49 | balrog-kun | i.e. /palm/Launcher |
| 20:50.08 | thomasg__ | does somebody know how long the battery lasts while phoning? |
| 20:54.53 | ruimoreira | i whould like to make a presentation on my local lug ....does anyone has any material such as presentation templates ?! |
| 20:55.18 | Stephmw | evenin' |
| 20:55.42 | ScaredyCat | fatal: corrupted pack file .git/objects/pack/pack-a146bcbc18f4826d6bf2a7f63be5dd77bbb5b2f5.pack |
| 20:55.49 | ScaredyCat | wtf does that mean? |
| 20:56.05 | ScaredyCat | and wtf is wrong with using svn... |
| 20:56.35 | Aria | Needing a frelling server and crappy merges |
| 20:56.47 | Aria | But it means you've got repo corruption. |
| 20:58.50 | ScaredyCat | gah |
| 21:02.31 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@cpc2-bagu2-0-0-cust912.bagu.cable.ntl.com) |
| 21:12.42 | *** join/#openmoko cktakahasi (n=cktakaha@20132131141.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 21:19.51 | *** part/#openmoko herbyle (n=pascal@p54A3695B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:23.04 | lrg | holtmann: ping |
| 21:23.35 | ewon | hah, it appears superwaba vm has issues using bytecode from javacs later than 1.4 |
| 21:24.34 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@tmo-007-67.customers.d1-online.com) |
| 21:25.45 | *** join/#openmoko MarkTheDaemon (n=markthed@phpbb/modifications/MarkTheDaemon) |
| 21:29.39 | *** join/#openmoko Meta[CNTDWN] (n=huhh@dsl51B664D3.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 21:30.26 | kiney_ | counter |
| 21:30.26 | aloril | (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 14:29:33 (8.604±1.0 days) (1655;242) |
| 21:31.33 | *** join/#openmoko TheAri (n=ari@wm219-220.resnet.wm.edu) |
| 21:32.57 | Viko | Aiai, I want wifi. 3G is not a priority, since my whole city is Wifi-covered. But I need some clever people to make VPN software so I can connect to it... Hurry up and make it ready for October :D |
| 21:33.06 | *** join/#openmoko dkirker (n=dkirker@c-24-6-210-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 21:33.25 | Stephmw | wifi? |
| 21:33.25 | aloril | GTA02 (P1+/P1.5) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F |
| 21:33.38 | Stephmw | Viko: ^^ |
| 21:33.47 | Stephmw | TheAri: poor you ;) |
| 21:34.01 | Stephmw | TheAri: you could always install a pico cell in your house... |
| 21:34.38 | TheAri | Stephmw: That defeats the mobility factor quite a bit, especially given that the CDMA-ness is due to being a largely rural area and thus I spend most of my time away from the house. |
| 21:35.09 | Stephmw | TheAri: ahhh, not much we can do then :( |
| 21:35.10 | Viko | Stephmw: I know GTA02 will have wifi, that is why the VPN has to be finished when I buy it :P |
| 21:35.13 | TheAri | Stephmw: Am I correct, though, that much of the OpenMoko platform could be retargeted, given CDMA hardware and a CDMA analogue to gsmd, to my uses? |
| 21:35.13 | aloril | TheAri: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) |
| 21:35.36 | TheAri | (Obviously, given money, time, interest, and those two items) |
| 21:35.43 | Stephmw | TheAri: I don't see why not, but I'm not really a hw guy |
| 21:35.47 | TheAri | Ah |
| 21:35.53 | Stephmw | Viko: :) |
| 21:36.03 | Stephmw | I'm waiting for the release to start hacking Java onto that baby |
| 21:36.55 | *** join/#openmoko ewanm89_laptop (n=ewanm89@host81-159-107-181.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 21:38.15 | TheAri | Stephmw: Got a link to get me started on the pico cell idea? |
| 21:38.57 | Viko | Wants; Python, VPN, prettier case :) (yes, it could actually be even better, GTA3 :P ) |
| 21:39.17 | ruimoreira | DerCorny did you had any luck ? |
| 21:39.34 | Stephmw | TheAri: that was more of a joke than anything, sorry ;) |
| 21:39.57 | Stephmw | TheAri: it's typically far too expensive to get one unless you're a business in a GSM deadspot |
| 21:40.00 | TheAri | Stephmw: I kind of figured, but some jokes are more practical than others. :) |
| 21:40.20 | *** join/#openmoko gdiebel (n=gdiebel@adsl-71-150-249-102.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:41.49 | DerCorny | ruimoreira: yeah, worked - but failed 5mins later in another package, so i gave up for today |
| 21:42.27 | ruimoreira | k |
| 21:44.05 | *** join/#openmoko poffy (n=poffy@cpe-70-116-144-238.houston.res.rr.com) |
| 21:46.38 | aloril | (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:E17]] |
| 21:51.22 | *** part/#openmoko thomasg__ (n=thomasg@p57AFCABA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:53.49 | summatusmentis | hey aloril, I know this might be way too difficult, but would it be possible to provide a link the page changed, when a wiki page changes? |
| 21:54.33 | SpeedEvil | Poll on special:recentchanges |
| 21:54.36 | SpeedEvil | on the wiki |
| 21:54.45 | *** join/#openmoko thomasg_gpm (n=thomasg@p57AFCABA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:54.46 | SpeedEvil | Or the RSS feed on the wiki |
| 21:55.15 | *** join/#openmoko Q_Continuum (n=Q@rrcs-67-52-219-78.west.biz.rr.com) |
| 21:55.22 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: ok, thanks. I just figured since there's an announcement anytime something gets changed, a link would be the next step. NOt a big deal |
| 21:55.47 | SpeedEvil | Wiki links are rather long. |
| 21:55.56 | SpeedEvil | Occasionally several change at once |
| 21:56.14 | summatusmentis | SpeedEvil: ok, that's fair |
| 21:57.17 | webjames | mmmmm neo |
| 21:58.26 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@ppp-82-135-81-239.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 22:00.32 | Basheri | btw, is there or is there not a multi-touch (since i've heard both versions) |
| 22:01.00 | *** join/#openmoko Tjikkun (n=tjikkun@82-204-54-115.dsl.bbeyond.nl) |
| 22:02.02 | Aria | No, not at the moment. |
| 22:02.07 | Aria | Perhaps in a future device. |
| 22:02.58 | Basheri | ok, so it's not possible to do on current device? |
| 22:03.07 | Aria | No. |
| 22:03.09 | Basheri | k |
| 22:03.19 | Aria | I wish, but hey, cost and timetable. |
| 22:03.25 | Basheri | yeh |
| 22:08.22 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85.127.109.192) |
| 22:09.42 | *** part/#openmoko TheAri (n=ari@wm219-220.resnet.wm.edu) |
| 22:20.50 | *** join/#openmoko JimT (n=jim@210-54-124-155.ipnets.xtra.co.nz) |
| 22:24.15 | Basheri | 4 months is way too long time to wait =( |
| 22:25.04 | *** join/#openmoko incinerator (n=sabine@ppp-82-135-81-239.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 22:26.24 | galexande | guys, i just bought milk that expires on: July 9th!! |
| 22:27.04 | poningru | zomg? |
| 22:27.07 | miip | so? |
| 22:27.14 | galexande | it's a sign :) |
| 22:27.19 | poningru | oh rofl |
| 22:27.19 | LuitvD | heheh |
| 22:27.34 | LuitvD | are we getting to that already? |
| 22:28.02 | miip | why you buy milk in the middle of the night? ;) |
| 22:28.52 | LuitvD | heheh |
| 22:29.38 | LuitvD | I guess it's some sort of belgian thing... |
| 22:29.43 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@207.181.6.54) |
| 22:30.02 | *** join/#openmoko gyaresu (n=gyaresu@ppp121-44-217-101.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net) |
| 22:32.41 | Basheri | :P |
| 22:32.54 | drath | well, July 9th is _the_ day, anyway, even without Neo1973 release and stuff ;) |
| 22:33.06 | Basheri | I wish i could buy milk in the middle of the night |
| 22:33.25 | Basheri | almost every shop closes at 21 |
| 22:33.36 | drath | that's an hour later than here |
| 22:33.41 | Basheri | :OOO |
| 22:33.44 | Basheri | where? |
| 22:33.48 | drath | .de |
| 22:33.52 | Basheri | k |
| 22:34.14 | drath | gotta go to a petrol station if you want to buy anything afer 8pm |
| 22:34.49 | summatusmentis | is 'petrol station' a german term? or european? |
| 22:35.03 | *** join/#openmoko bluelightning (n=blueligh@222-155-131-201.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 22:35.53 | drath | summatusmentis: not sure - it's in my dictionary, among terms like "gas station" and "fueling station" |
| 22:36.08 | summatusmentis | drath: as an american, I'm used to gas station. I'm just curious |
| 22:36.26 | summatusmentis | or, I guess to be more correct, as someone from the states |
| 22:36.39 | drath | guess it's british english |
| 22:36.57 | drath | i belive i learned "petrol" rather than "gas" |
| 22:37.01 | drath | +e |
| 22:37.16 | summatusmentis | huh, interesting. |
| 22:37.23 | lardman | petrol is indeed English |
| 22:37.41 | *** join/#openmoko MarkTheDaemon (n=markthed@phpbb/modifications/MarkTheDaemon) |
| 22:37.51 | Basheri | They do tend to teach british english rather than american english in europe |
| 22:38.11 | lardman | There is only one English, from England ;) |
| 22:38.29 | Basheri | :P |
| 22:38.31 | summatusmentis | Basheri: well, that would make sense |
| 22:38.37 | Basheri | indeed |
| 22:38.53 | Basheri | But i prefer american :P |
| 22:38.54 | lardman | Lots of Europeans have American accents though from watching TV |
| 22:39.09 | Basheri | probably because of the movies etc. |
| 22:39.29 | ewon | any superwaba heads awake? |
| 22:39.35 | summatusmentis | so they'll get taught british english, but use an american accent? |
| 22:39.54 | lardman | I suppose so, but probably pick up the slang from TV |
| 22:40.01 | summatusmentis | ewon: I saw you mention that last night, I think. Is it just a build system? |
| 22:40.02 | balrog-kun | no, lots of Europeans have American accents that they acquire from the Swedes |
| 22:40.15 | summatusmentis | lardman: makes sense |
| 22:40.19 | lardman | They ought to spell colour correctly though :D ;) |
| 22:40.23 | Stephmw | ewon: no idea, but I'll be on the lookout |
| 22:40.42 | ewon | summatusmentis: small java vm aimed at PDAs |
| 22:40.58 | ewon | rapid development, but damned if I can get it to work on my Palm :) |
| 22:41.09 | *** join/#openmoko ninHer (n=ninHer@115.Red-88-12-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 22:41.11 | summatusmentis | ah, ok. I looked at the site, and it looked like a build system |
| 22:41.20 | balrog-kun | btw. superwaba is not free software |
| 22:41.37 | ewon | it's GPL'd, last I looked |
| 22:41.37 | Basheri | well, actually people from germany have german accent rather than american and same goes for other countries too ;) |
| 22:41.56 | balrog-kun | ewon: oh, that's cool |
| 22:42.11 | ewon | they have a payware version as well |
| 22:43.01 | balrog-kun | well, their site doesn't look like a website of an opensource project |
| 22:43.01 | summatusmentis | drath: any idea as to the cost of living, overall in .de vs. .us? |
| 22:43.32 | drath | summatusmentis: a friend of mine is just about to return after spending almost a year in the states |
| 22:43.41 | drath | summatusmentis: according to him it aint that much of a difference |
| 22:44.10 | balrog-kun | ah, they moved the development resources to sourceforge, that's nice |
| 22:44.12 | drath | summatusmentis: like fresh vegetables are more expensive where you live, but you pay only half for gas |
| 22:44.22 | *** join/#openmoko WSX (i=jan@noc.xs26.net) |
| 22:44.34 | summatusmentis | drath: cool. I'm looking at 'study abroad' options through my college i'll be attending. And since I can pay the same tuition rates, it's just cost of living I'd be dealing with. |
| 22:44.50 | balrog-kun | except the CVS link doesn't resolve :) |
| 22:44.58 | drath | summatusmentis: beer is a lot better here, and much cheaper ;) |
| 22:45.18 | drath | summatusmentis: with beer being my friend's number one complaint about usa |
| 22:45.23 | Basheri | :DDD |
| 22:45.26 | summatusmentis | drath: I have no idea what better means, as I'm only 18 :-) |
| 22:45.44 | drath | summatusmentis: ah, yeah, well, you're legally entitled to drink as much as you can stand here |
| 22:45.49 | Basheri | (legal sge in most of europe) |
| 22:45.54 | Basheri | *age |
| 22:45.55 | balrog-kun | well, you would have an idea if you lived in germany :p |
| 22:46.02 | summatusmentis | lol |
| 22:46.17 | ewon | as a German I doubt you will appreciate american beer |
| 22:46.54 | Basheri | german beer <3 |
| 22:46.58 | ewon | indeed |
| 22:47.33 | drath | and ofcourse there's bavarian beer > german beer > * |
| 22:47.33 | miip | summatusmentis: what is in a bottle of "air gas"? i saw it on american choppers the other day... is it compressed air or oxigen or somethng else? |
| 22:48.07 | summatusmentis | miip: air gas? I have no idea, american choppers is the motocycle show? |
| 22:48.41 | miip | summatusmentis: yes the motorcycle show |
| 22:49.06 | LuitvD | zomg, I'm getting more then 2 times my minimum legal salary :D |
| 22:49.16 | summatusmentis | miip: honestly, i have no idea |
| 22:49.31 | summatusmentis | I've never heard that term, what were they using it for? |
| 22:49.55 | miip | its in the background all the time ^^ |
| 22:50.26 | drath | miip: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gas - no idea if that's what they meant |
| 22:50.40 | LuitvD | miip: compressed air really... they use it for what exactly? |
| 22:51.27 | LuitvD | the bottle... how did they use it? |
| 22:52.15 | lardman | Night all |
| 22:52.45 | Basheri | night |
| 22:52.48 | miip | i have no idea, it stands there all the time |
| 22:52.57 | miip | n8 |
| 22:53.22 | summatusmentis | miip: americans are weird :-P |
| 22:53.45 | miip | yes indeed ^^ |
| 22:54.22 | LuitvD | compressed air cans can be used for cleaning purposes |
| 22:54.27 | Stephmw | naaah, you-rope-eans are weird... |
| 22:54.34 | summatusmentis | well, but it wouldn't be labelled air gas... |
| 22:54.37 | Stephmw | ... USians are just _strange_ |
| 22:54.55 | summatusmentis | Stephmw: candian? :-P |
| 22:55.00 | Basheri | i just don't get the american censorship |
| 22:55.06 | Basheri | it's so lame :DDD |
| 22:55.14 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: I'm weirder still |
| 22:55.15 | summatusmentis | Basheri: on what level? |
| 22:55.35 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: I'm a frenchie that's spent the last 20 years in the UK |
| 22:55.54 | LuitvD | with a german name? |
| 22:56.01 | drath | summatusmentis: any? *cough* ;) |
| 22:56.07 | summatusmentis | Basheri: I would argue on the local leve, and perhaps even on the state level, there is very little censorship |
| 22:56.31 | Stephmw | LuitvD: that part's supposedly Russian... 5th generation Frenchie |
| 22:56.44 | Stephmw | LuitvD: I really should stick my family tree online one day |
| 22:56.52 | drath | summatusmentis: it's probably not nearly as bad as the us manage to make themself look to the outside world |
| 22:56.52 | LuitvD | meslin > russian? |
| 22:56.55 | Basheri | summatusmentis: on every level... over-beep swear words, blur private parts etc. |
| 22:57.09 | summatusmentis | and, even in the scheme of censorship, nationally, citizens themselves, aren't censored |
| 22:57.10 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej_ (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 22:57.19 | LuitvD | Stephmw: Weber sounds german to me :P |
| 22:57.21 | Stephmw | LuitvD: Weber->Russian (at least the family member that held it was)... Meslin -> French (Normandy) |
| 22:57.30 | summatusmentis | Basheri: that sort of thing doesn't happen when something is nationally televised, or broadcasted? |
| 22:57.36 | Stephmw | LuitvD: he may have changed his name to blend in |
| 22:58.04 | summatusmentis | drath: our government is stupid, that's very true, so yes, I'll agree that the appearance is likely much worse than what actually goes on |
| 22:58.14 | LuitvD | stupid foreign names :S I never understand them... |
| 22:58.23 | Basheri | summatusmentis: unfortunately when we buy your shows, they're already cencored |
| 22:58.33 | Basheri | s |
| 22:58.43 | *** join/#openmoko alex-weej_ (n=alex@82.23.188.238) |
| 22:58.55 | summatusmentis | Basheri: ok, that's fair. Americans tend to freak out about... taboo subject matter... swearing, nudity, etc. |
| 22:59.16 | summatusmentis | trying to keep that sort of stuff from getting into the hands of children, and the religious right wing ;-) |
| 22:59.17 | LuitvD | Stephmw: my name is weirder though :P |
| 22:59.17 | Basheri | yeh, and we find it very odd =) |
| 22:59.31 | Stephmw | LuitvD: agreed! :) |
| 22:59.44 | LuitvD | Stephmw: and you don't even know mine :P |
| 22:59.47 | LuitvD | (or do you?) |
| 22:59.48 | *** join/#openmoko jessta (n=jessta@203-214-26-136.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 22:59.58 | Stephmw | LuitvD: I have problems with official forms... firstname+2 middle names+2 surnames |
| 23:00.00 | summatusmentis | it's in your /whois |
| 23:00.01 | Stephmw | LuitvD: /whois LuitvD |
| 23:00.04 | drath | hehehe |
| 23:00.05 | LuitvD | ah |
| 23:00.23 | summatusmentis | that's alright, I do too |
| 23:00.27 | Basheri | i think it's hypocritical to censor boobs.. Since everyone has even sucked those |
| 23:00.27 | Stephmw | Im in ur m4chin3, pwn1ng ur nam3 |
| 23:00.37 | LuitvD | Stephmw: same here. Especially with portugese names |
| 23:00.46 | summatusmentis | Basheri: LOL!! |
| 23:00.59 | summatusmentis | our society is... conservative about things like that |
| 23:01.03 | Basheri | :D |
| 23:01.13 | Stephmw | LuitvD: I didn't realise the van part was Portuguese? I thought it was Dutch? |
| 23:01.51 | LuitvD | Stephmw: it is, I was talking about some portugese names I have to deal with at work |
| 23:02.00 | Stephmw | Basheri: hmmm? |
| 23:02.06 | Stephmw | LuitvD: ahh :) |
| 23:02.13 | Basheri | :P |
| 23:02.26 | LuitvD | lol |
| 23:02.34 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: that's why I do my bit to reintroduce the wording into common usage |
| 23:02.43 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: on laptops: nipple + strokepad |
| 23:03.22 | summatusmentis | Stephmw: ?? |
| 23:03.24 | summatusmentis | I'm confused |
| 23:04.14 | summatusmentis | laptops: nipple == scroll nub && strokepad == touchpad, I assume |
| 23:04.22 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: right :) |
| 23:04.31 | summatusmentis | I was so lost there for a minute |
| 23:04.34 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: I pretended to be confused and mixed up the terms :) |
| 23:04.46 | summatusmentis | lol, ok |
| 23:05.04 | LuitvD | in dutch, a 'nippel' (pronounced like nipple) is a type of fastening clip/screw/nail/whatever |
| 23:06.30 | summatusmentis | so it'd be rather painful to suck on then? |
| 23:06.34 | LuitvD | XD |
| 23:06.53 | LuitvD | it's nearly always made of metal |
| 23:07.13 | LuitvD | http://www.speedcomposites.com/fotosgerben/nippel-doors.JPG |
| 23:07.24 | LuitvD | that shiny part |
| 23:08.13 | LuitvD | the things used to fasten and adjust spokes in a wheel are called 'nippel' here |
| 23:09.17 | summatusmentis | LuitvD: I don't even know what that'd be called in english... hrm |
| 23:09.26 | LuitvD | me neither :P |
| 23:09.49 | summatusmentis | lol |
| 23:10.25 | drath | there's a german song by Mike Krueger about a nippel and a clip/flap/hanger... the poor guy always had problems handling the nipple, resulting in a parachute not opening and in the end even heaven's gates wouldn't open ;) |
| 23:10.56 | summatusmentis | : |
| 23:10.58 | summatusmentis | :D |
| 23:11.03 | LuitvD | clipping a nippel: http://www.burtoncar.com/dms_temp/image-cache/devmap-devmap_prd-dbo-prd_handleidingafbeelding_00000-handl_afbeelding_00000-handl_id-87-0-0-800-0-0-0--0.jpg |
| 23:11.04 | LuitvD | XD |
| 23:11.09 | LuitvD | ouch |
| 23:12.13 | summatusmentis | grr... firefox is being unresponsive again :-/ |
| 23:12.24 | summatusmentis | damn AT&T site |
| 23:12.49 | LuitvD | not hard to choose between nippel-tweaking and nipple-tweaking |
| 23:12.50 | LuitvD | :P |
| 23:13.38 | LuitvD | anyway, enough of that bullshit :) I'm going to sleep |
| 23:13.47 | summatusmentis | lol, goodnight LuitvD |
| 23:13.56 | LuitvD | (dreaming about either nippels or nipples... or just nothing at all) |
| 23:14.05 | LuitvD | (or the Neo ofcourse :P ) |
| 23:14.13 | summatusmentis | nipples on the neo? |
| 23:14.29 | LuitvD | possibly even that |
| 23:14.32 | drath | heh, yeah, just realized that anything i'd do to my source at this point probably wouldn'd help by the time i looked at it tomorrow |
| 23:14.49 | LuitvD | 'night all |
| 23:15.34 | summatusmentis | hrm... I wish I had coding skill :-/ |
| 23:16.25 | drath | skill is something you can train - and coding is definitely something you only learn by doing |
| 23:16.51 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: never a bad time to get started |
| 23:16.57 | summatusmentis | drath: well, right. It sort of requires a way to learn it, a project or something |
| 23:17.03 | *** join/#openmoko Goophy (i=99686@kaksi.ifi.uio.no) |
| 23:17.13 | drath | formal education definitely helps, but i've seen people studying it failing miserably because they lacked enthusiasm |
| 23:17.15 | summatusmentis | I've got basic C/C++ stuff, but nothing near the skill required for this, or angstrom |
| 23:17.15 | Stephmw | pick something interesting, start fixing bugs, submit patches |
| 23:17.29 | Stephmw | you learn a lot from the critique |
| 23:17.39 | summatusmentis | critique? |
| 23:17.45 | drath | criticism ;) |
| 23:17.50 | Stephmw | people slagging off your patches :) |
| 23:18.10 | summatusmentis | lol, I guess I missed that |
| 23:18.46 | summatusmentis | and I think at the level the software is at currently, i'd just be hindrance |
| 23:18.55 | Stephmw | naaah, never |
| 23:19.12 | Stephmw | code can always do with improvements... comments are always nice to have for instance |
| 23:19.20 | Stephmw | and you'll be writing lots to understand what the code does |
| 23:19.27 | Stephmw | might as well make a patch :) |
| 23:19.53 | summatusmentis | then get yelled at for increasing the size of the codebase :-P |
| 23:21.02 | Stephmw | by one dev, and praised by others for doing something they keep telling themselves they'll do 'someday' |
| 23:21.02 | drath | summatusmentis: you can always count on people knowing a lot more than you taking worse beating for their code |
| 23:21.36 | summatusmentis | drath: how so? |
| 23:21.58 | Stephmw | anyway, even the pros make mistakes... my last one was last year... only started getting regression test errors 3 months ago |
| 23:22.03 | Stephmw | ... woops |
| 23:22.19 | drath | summatusmentis: the more people read your code the more are going to criticice you |
| 23:22.47 | summatusmentis | drath: well, that makes sense |
| 23:23.05 | drath | summatusmentis: but in the end that's what generates code quality |
| 23:23.13 | drath | summatusmentis: noone's going to write perfect code |
| 23:23.37 | drath | summatusmentis: so you're best off having your code reviewed by as many people as possible |
| 23:23.56 | summatusmentis | the issue really becomes the level of the code needing to be written |
| 23:24.06 | summatusmentis | for instance, I only sort of understand pointers, and how to use them |
| 23:24.20 | *** join/#openmoko danilos (n=danilo@adsl-236-193.eunet.yu) |
| 23:24.24 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: oh, is that all? |
| 23:24.36 | summatusmentis | like I said, basic C/C++ stuff |
| 23:24.37 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: LOTS of people have the same problem |
| 23:24.43 | drath | there'll always be people happy to answer those questions |
| 23:24.45 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: I'm pointer-dyslexic for instance |
| 23:24.54 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: most of the time it 'just works' |
| 23:25.08 | *** join/#openmoko guest_ (n=guest@adsl-64-161-117-110.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 23:25.11 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: other times, peer review catches my misunderstandings |
| 23:25.21 | Stephmw | ... Java pampers me far too much |
| 23:25.50 | Elrond | So one thing, this gps chip is good for... produce randomness ;o) |
| 23:25.58 | drath | hehehe |
| 23:26.00 | Elrond | probably very good randomness ;-) |
| 23:26.05 | Stephmw | haha |
| 23:26.24 | summatusmentis | Stephmw: mm... yeah, I've never writen for pointers, just read pointer'd code. object orientation is another something that I understand in concept, but haven't run into needing to use |
| 23:27.11 | *** join/#openmoko nop (n=nop@p54A0B6BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:27.19 | Stephmw | thankfully, there's not a whole lot of embedded code that is OO |
| 23:27.20 | drath | heh, object orientation, isn't that something that takes only minutes to use and a lifetime to master? ;) |
| 23:27.30 | Stephmw | OO-like, yes, but it's bastardised OO |
| 23:28.01 | summatusmentis | Stephmw: ok, that's probably true. I guess I've been speaking generally |
| 23:28.11 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: :) |
| 23:28.23 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: you know this whole discussion is just leading to you submitting a patch :) |
| 23:28.27 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: just accept it |
| 23:28.33 | mjr | Elrond, not for cryptographic apps though; an enemy with a similar receiver will get your randomness too... |
| 23:28.51 | mjr | (well, approx.) |
| 23:29.08 | drath | just take the last bit then... that's approximately good enough ;) |
| 23:29.13 | summatusmentis | Stephmw: lol, I know I know. I'm actually looking at the code for mb-applet-wireless shortly, as it segfaults in angstrom. Maybe this'll pertain to openmoko? |
| 23:29.16 | Elrond | mjr - Well, for cryptographic use, you only use a very few least significatn bits. |
| 23:29.18 | Stephmw | mjr: see him, shoot him? |
| 23:29.41 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: it'll certainly do so for the wifi edition |
| 23:30.22 | summatusmentis | unless it's something about the angstrom setup that's making it segfault, but hey, it's worth a shot |
| 23:30.35 | Elrond | mjr - The attacker would need to be very close to you and monitor you moving the neo. ;) |
| 23:30.56 | Elrond | mjr - In which case go with Stephmw ;o) |
| 23:31.39 | drath | you might want to start trying to hit him with a stick, as shooting people is regarded as being kind of rude in many places around the world |
| 23:31.40 | Stephmw | LOL: from an iphone review: "the phone ended up tossing all my mail into a single container. Received messages. Sent messages. Everything." |
| 23:32.08 | summatusmentis | 3k??? why? |
| 23:32.21 | Stephmw | googlemail.... moto is don't delete, search! |
| 23:32.33 | Elrond | hehe |
| 23:32.43 | Elrond | moto is "let google use your mail" ;o) |
| 23:32.45 | summatusmentis | ah, I see. I pop my gmail to my computer |
| 23:33.02 | Stephmw | Elrond: google's welcome to my mailing list subscriptions :D |
| 23:33.13 | Elrond | Stephmw - ;o) |
| 23:33.33 | Stephmw | no ads on my gmail either |
| 23:33.51 | summatusmentis | I tried to do that... and it blocked the entire interface |
| 23:34.01 | summatusmentis | I haven't checked since I went to adblock+ |
| 23:34.01 | Stephmw | yeah, gotta be selective |
| 23:34.30 | *** join/#openmoko daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) |
| 23:34.36 | daMaestro | counter? |
| 23:34.37 | aloril | "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 12:25:23 (8.518±1.0 days) (1656;242) |
| 23:34.41 | Elrond | I never tried gmail... |
| 23:34.57 | Stephmw | I use it for my domain |
| 23:35.08 | webjames | it's quite good, i use it and have been very pleased |
| 23:35.12 | daMaestro | so, are there any open moko gurus around that can help me figure out why my patched scripts are not working? (download.sh and flash.sh) |
| 23:35.15 | Stephmw | great for when the corporate proxy barfs and blocks ssh |
| 23:35.19 | daMaestro | http://dev.damaestro.us/openmoko/ |
| 23:37.58 | *** join/#openmoko daniel_bergamini (n=danieber@70-41-160-76.cust.wildblue.net) |
| 23:39.12 | Basheri | :O |
| 23:39.16 | Basheri | coke > pepsi |
| 23:40.16 | Stephmw | juice > coke || pepsi |
| 23:40.22 | Viko | water > coke |
| 23:40.35 | daMaestro | tea > water |
| 23:40.44 | daMaestro | coffee ~= tea |
| 23:40.53 | Viko | coffee > tea |
| 23:41.26 | Viko | oh, and vodka >> coffee |
| 23:41.27 | Viko | :P |
| 23:41.39 | daMaestro | is tea as much of a diuretic as coffee? |
| 23:41.50 | *** join/#openmoko Linux_Galore (n=richard@60-242-20-212.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 23:41.51 | schonstal | It's the caffeine, so it's probably about the same |
| 23:41.55 | daMaestro | i mean i speak while at my favorite cafe.. drinking an iced quad latte.. but still |
| 23:41.55 | daMaestro | lol |
| 23:41.58 | Basheri | koskenkorva > vodka |
| 23:42.00 | daMaestro | ahh ok |
| 23:42.39 | Viko | Tea is amazing. Relaxing and awakening at the same time... |
| 23:42.49 | Viko | Like taking extacy and sleeping pills. |
| 23:42.50 | schonstal | Has anyone here attempted to build openmoko on 64bit gentoo? |
| 23:42.56 | Viko | And on that bombshell, its time to end the show, and go to bed. |
| 23:45.08 | daMaestro | schonstal, i've had issues with x86_64 fedora 7 |
| 23:45.15 | schonstal | I'm one of the developers for the media player for the OLPC, and a couple of us were interested in getting something working with OpenMoko |
| 23:45.17 | daMaestro | schonstal, well.. i seem to not be able to build the NAND |
| 23:45.27 | daMaestro | schonstal, OLPC++ |
| 23:45.31 | schonstal | Indeed |
| 23:45.34 | webjames | night all :) |
| 23:45.43 | daMaestro | schonstal, i've package up qemu-neo1973 for fedora 7 |
| 23:45.46 | daMaestro | schonstal, ;-) |
| 23:46.35 | *** part/#openmoko Viko (n=Viko@ti121210a080-2157.bb.online.no) |
| 23:47.30 | Stephmw | schonstal: you might have more joy asking weekdays 4pm GMT onwards |
| 23:47.43 | Stephmw | schonstal: bit dead this late :) |
| 23:48.02 | schonstal | Yeah, it's about 5pm on saturday here |
| 23:48.12 | schonstal | West coast US |
| 23:48.24 | Stephmw | of course, there's always the mailing list, but it's a little noisy atm |
| 23:48.32 | Stephmw | ahhh, yeah, figures |
| 23:48.36 | daMaestro | schonstal, nice... where? |
| 23:48.39 | daMaestro | schonstal, Denver here |
| 23:48.58 | schonstal | daMaestro: Corvallis, OR |
| 23:49.03 | daMaestro | cool |
| 23:49.20 | daMaestro | i've started poking more at OLPC (/me notes cloak) |
| 23:49.52 | daMaestro | i'm also the primary developer for revisor.. and it is my understanding we will be doing some direct coding for OLPC to "spin" images |
| 23:49.56 | Stephmw | ahhh, another RHatter? |
| 23:50.11 | schonstal | Yeah, I work for the OSU OSL |
| 23:51.18 | daMaestro | make[1]: *** [cpu-exec.o] Error 1 |
| 23:51.38 | daMaestro | /builddir/build/BUILD/qemu-neo1973/cpu-exec.c: In function `cpu_arm_exec': |
| 23:51.44 | daMaestro | /builddir/build/BUILD/qemu-neo1973/cpu-exec.c:757: error: bp cannot be used in asm here |
| 23:51.51 | daMaestro | awesome.. that is when building for 32bit f7 |
| 23:53.19 | Stephmw | I think I'd heard qemu was temperamental to build |
| 23:54.18 | balrog-kun | is that with gcc 3? is it perhaps heavily patched? |
| 23:54.46 | *** part/#openmoko ruimoreira (n=rmoreira@87-196-114-120.net.novis.pt) |
| 23:55.08 | summatusmentis | has anyone talked about, or found a suitable vm for when the neo gets released? |
| 23:55.21 | daMaestro | balrog-kun, it is with gcc 3.4.4 |
| 23:55.27 | robster | summatusmentis: vm? |
| 23:55.32 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: vm in which context? |
| 23:55.36 | summatusmentis | robster: sorry, java vm |
| 23:55.45 | robster | summatusmentis: why would you want java? |
| 23:55.50 | daMaestro | lol |
| 23:55.52 | daMaestro | exactly |
| 23:55.58 | daMaestro | python++ |
| 23:56.00 | Stephmw | shush! |
| 23:56.09 | robster | daMaestro: why would you want python ? |
| 23:56.14 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: there are at least 3 that can be used |
| 23:56.23 | summatusmentis | well, generally speaking, there are a large number of 3rd party apps that use java |
| 23:56.23 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: they just lack UI integration |
| 23:56.26 | daMaestro | robster, why would you *not* ;-) |
| 23:56.27 | daMaestro | lol |
| 23:56.31 | daMaestro | actually i would love perl |
| 23:56.46 | daMaestro | but i saw mention of some other language you guys are promoting |
| 23:56.48 | summatusmentis | another something i wish I knew how to do :-) |
| 23:56.54 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: Sun's J2SE (bit too big), Sun's phoneME, and the various VMs that GNU Classpath supports |
| 23:57.01 | robster | daMaestro: i think python rocks, but its just not suitable for embedded devices |
| 23:57.09 | daMaestro | yeah, it is heavy |
| 23:57.13 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: it'll be done, never fear |
| 23:57.27 | daMaestro | robster, i plan on building my own custom images that do what i want |
| 23:57.32 | summatusmentis | Stephmw: ok, I was just curious |
| 23:57.34 | Stephmw | summatusmentis: I'll likely take part, but I can't until August 11 |
| 23:57.46 | daMaestro | robster, an image with little to nothing but python is one i am looking at doing ;-) |
| 23:57.59 | summatusmentis | Stephmw: cool! |
