| 00:00.25 | grgehunt | are you thinking of getting one SpeedEvil ? |
| 00:00.31 | mjm | cool thanks for the extra info |
| 00:00.32 | SpeedEvil | Probably. |
| 00:00.52 | *** part/#openmoko mjm (n=mjm@74.93.24.218) |
| 00:00.55 | SpeedEvil | Unless it turns out from the first 50 devs that the hardware has issues. |
| 00:01.12 | grgehunt | wifi would make it super nice ;/ |
| 00:01.13 | SpeedEvil | Or if battery life is under a day. |
| 00:01.15 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 00:01.43 | grgehunt | isn't the battery 1200maH? |
| 00:01.49 | SpeedEvil | Announcements on V2 features coming over the next couple of months apparently. |
| 00:01.52 | grgehunt | which doesn't hold that big a punch these days |
| 00:01.52 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 00:02.07 | SpeedEvil | And V2 discount for devs that get V1. |
| 00:02.20 | SpeedEvil | Well - it really depends on how it sucks the power down. |
| 00:02.43 | grgehunt | my general inkling is that linux devices can be a little power hungry |
| 00:02.56 | SpeedEvil | It depends. Done right, ... |
| 00:03.11 | SpeedEvil | It is hard. |
| 00:03.31 | grgehunt | yeah, it just seems like quite often you're taking a desktop kernel and trying to strip it bare |
| 00:03.56 | SpeedEvil | Much of it IMO, is going to be how deep can the processor be put to sleep. |
| 00:04.22 | SpeedEvil | I want it totally off (resume on bluetooth, call, touch) when not in use. |
| 00:04.36 | SpeedEvil | And if the hardware can't do that, well... |
| 00:05.19 | grgehunt | i think for me a killer phone would be gps/wifi/touchscreen/music player/decent camera |
| 00:05.43 | aevin | SpeedEvil: do you know if there's a standard/profile for "WakeOnBluetooth"? |
| 00:05.48 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 00:05.52 | grgehunt | there's not realy one that hits all the sweet spots yet |
| 00:05.53 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@adsl-75-36-71-227.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:06.18 | SpeedEvil | You can of course attach external camera/wifi, but... |
| 00:06.37 | Agrajag- | grgehunt: you're not going to get a decent camera on a small phone. the sensor is just too small. |
| 00:06.44 | SpeedEvil | You can get moderately decent. |
| 00:06.55 | grgehunt | i'm not expecting dslr or anything :) |
| 00:06.55 | SpeedEvil | It's not going to be DSLR. |
| 00:07.04 | Agrajag- | if your definition of "decent" is "pretty crap" then ok :P |
| 00:07.05 | Elrond | Do we have any info, wether it's dualband or quadband? |
| 00:07.09 | SpeedEvil | Even a bad VGA camera has many uses. |
| 00:07.11 | SpeedEvil | quadband |
| 00:07.12 | grgehunt | the pics on my p900 are pretty horrible |
| 00:12.40 | *** join/#openmoko vetetix (n=vetetix@128.26-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 00:15.26 | stefan_schmidt | counter |
| 00:15.26 | aloril | 05:44:33 (0.239 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.239 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.239 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (245) |
| 00:15.34 | stefan_schmidt | sigh, time to sleep |
| 00:17.35 | rox | hi guys |
| 00:20.16 | rox | what seems to be the status on the source? |
| 00:20.54 | grgehunt | like there might be a bit more waiting |
| 00:21.03 | rox | horror |
| 00:21.04 | DukeOfURL | may the source be with you :=) |
| 00:22.02 | rox | i got some stuff in mind, but non of them would qualify as a full project |
| 00:22.40 | rox | blacklisting in the address book app and integrating gpg into the mail/sms app |
| 00:22.52 | *** join/#openmoko Vegar (i=vegar@51-142-151-213.mtulink.net) |
| 00:24.04 | rox | if i could just lay my paws on those sources, so i could hack away |
| 00:28.02 | SpeedEvil | blacklisting? |
| 00:28.04 | SpeedEvil | Oh |
| 00:28.11 | SpeedEvil | For people you don't want to talk to. |
| 00:28.21 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - there has been discussion of that. |
| 00:29.12 | SpeedEvil | Also human challenges. Phone recieves call. Only rings when other party has answered "press the number equal to 2+2" or similar. |
| 00:29.14 | grgehunt | i accidentally tried to call someone 30+ times when i was in a foreign country once :/ |
| 00:29.33 | grgehunt | after that i added a couple of fake AAAAA type names |
| 00:29.59 | grgehunt | and was more careful about sleeping with my phone in my pillow... |
| 00:30.36 | SpeedEvil | I'd be wary of doing that with the neo - from cracking touchscreen reasons. |
| 00:30.44 | SpeedEvil | Without a case. |
| 00:31.03 | Elrond | Yeah.... my current phone is quite robust... |
| 00:31.26 | grgehunt | i've found my p900 to be highly robust |
| 00:31.42 | grgehunt | i could probably throw it at a wall without it flinching |
| 00:32.16 | Elrond | I once dropped my phone on the street. Nothing to see on it. |
| 00:32.35 | Elrond | I hope the neo will be a bit robust. |
| 00:32.51 | grgehunt | it'd probably be hard getting insurance on a neo too... |
| 00:33.30 | Elrond | grgehunt - What do you mean? |
| 00:33.42 | grgehunt | from your provider |
| 00:34.02 | Elrond | I don't get you. |
| 00:34.14 | grgehunt | i know orange will only insure your phone if you buy it new with them |
| 00:34.46 | grgehunt | i pay £5/mo (which reminds me i should scrap that) to insure my phone |
| 00:35.05 | Elrond | Ahh. insure from what accidents? |
| 00:35.31 | grgehunt | theft/accidents and the like |
| 00:35.43 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 00:35.58 | Elrond | Well, you probably can insure your neo with a normal insurance company. ;) |
| 00:38.34 | Elrond | I hope the usb connector will be non-crappy. |
| 00:39.25 | Elrond | Thinking again about it, it really should be non-crappy. As it's used for charging. |
| 00:59.48 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 01:13.40 | Elrond | Night people. |
| 01:14.22 | Psi_ | nite |
| 01:31.34 | weez | counter |
| 01:31.34 | aloril | 04:28:25 (0.186 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.186 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.186 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (246) |
| 01:48.55 | *** join/#openmoko snatches (n=slapnik@rrcs-70-61-81-90.midsouth.biz.rr.com) |
| 01:49.04 | snatches | counter |
| 01:49.05 | aloril | 04:10:54 (0.174 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.174 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.174 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (247) |
| 01:49.32 | Agrajag- | that's getting fairly annoying |
| 01:51.14 | snatches | maybe the openMoko group should have said the site would go live on Feb 12, since technically that's when it will be avail |
| 01:51.48 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0HiT (n=Z@cpe-24-195-252-248.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 01:52.32 | alphaone | snatches: As I understand it is being delayed because of technical difficulties |
| 01:55.17 | snatches | probably because of a lot of jerks like me keep trying to use their logins to get through the authentication |
| 01:55.48 | Zer0HiT | haha |
| 01:55.48 | alphaone | heh |
| 01:56.58 | alphaone | It was more a "Openmoko doesn't build with the dev branch of oe and we don't want to publish broken code" reasoning |
| 01:58.20 | snatches | I'll accept that |
| 01:58.44 | alphaone | Yeah |
| 01:58.51 | alphaone | It sucks nonetheless |
| 01:58.56 | alphaone | But oh well |
| 01:59.19 | alphaone | I should learn for some tests anyway |
| 02:10.26 | *** part/#openmoko snatches (n=slapnik@rrcs-70-61-81-90.midsouth.biz.rr.com) |
| 02:16.27 | *** join/#openmoko vetetux (n=vetetix@173.24-218-195.adsl.internet.lu) |
| 02:36.59 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 02:37.59 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@124.178.196.165) |
| 02:38.33 | *** join/#openmoko amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@124.178.196.165) |
| 02:43.21 | *** join/#openmoko romulus_ (n=romulus@S0106000625a403af.vc.shawcable.net) |
| 03:00.25 | romulus_ | counter |
| 03:00.25 | aloril | 02:59:34 (0.125 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.125 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.125 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (248) |
| 03:11.38 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 03:31.30 | *** join/#openmoko xkr47^ (i=xkr47@2001:14b8:141:5926:5358:9793:2384:6264) |
| 03:53.37 | alphaone | counter |
| 03:53.37 | aloril | 02:06:22 (0.088 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.088 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.088 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (249) |
| 03:56.51 | rwhitby | if mickey|zzZZzz is zzZZzz, then there aint gonna be no source in 2 hours time ... |
| 03:56.53 | *** join/#openmoko jserv2 (n=jserv@linux3.cc.ntu.edu.tw) |
| 03:59.01 | wm_eddie | s/cell phone/service/ |
| 04:05.46 | *** join/#openmoko glen_quagmire (n=glen_qua@pool-70-18-16-231.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 04:05.51 | glen_quagmire | is this free cellphone? |
| 04:06.08 | rwhitby | free as in speech, yes. |
| 04:06.16 | glen_quagmire | yay |
| 04:06.23 | glen_quagmire | i'll be wating for the release |
| 04:12.41 | *** join/#openmoko stryderjzw (n=stryderj@216.232.85.137) |
| 04:18.09 | *** join/#openmoko wiljo (n=vtervo@130.233.228.9) |
| 04:19.23 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 04:33.20 | wm_eddie | Doh, the Neo comes out just as I'm going to be in Puerto Rico for spring break. |
| 04:33.48 | wm_eddie | I wonder how long it'll take to ship, if it's less than a week I can probably pick it up in PR. |
| 04:36.12 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.168.191) |
| 04:40.57 | *** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins) |
| 04:49.42 | *** join/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-95-89.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 04:49.46 | Mortimus | counter |
| 04:49.47 | aloril | 01:10:13 (0.049 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.049 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.049 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (250) |
| 04:49.58 | Mortimus | soooo close |
| 04:52.46 | Mortimus | is that 1 hour 10 min? |
| 04:52.49 | Mortimus | counter |
| 04:52.49 | aloril | 01:07:10 (0.047 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.047 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.047 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (248) |
| 04:53.06 | Mortimus | i am so waiting for this |
| 04:53.50 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2_ (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 04:54.11 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) |
| 04:57.10 | Mortimus | so where would the source be posted |
| 04:58.00 | Psi_ | you guys all seem so sure the source will suddenly appear at 1 second into the 11th |
| 04:58.04 | Mortimus | and will the open moko have an ambient light sensor |
| 04:58.39 | Mortimus | Psi_ : you are right |
| 04:59.00 | Mortimus | damn it. I hate windows it ALWAYS messes up my clock |
| 04:59.33 | aloril | Psi_: not really, I just s/released/released any time/ in counter ;-) |
| 04:59.42 | *** join/#openmoko Vegar (i=vegar@51-142-151-213.mtulink.net) |
| 05:00.33 | aloril | Mortimus: I guess rest of links mentioned http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001586.html not working currently start working |
| 05:00.33 | Psi_ | i hope it does appear in 1 hour, but im not holding my breath |
| 05:00.39 | aloril | and announce mail and topic change |
| 05:01.06 | aloril | press release did happen few minutes over 23:59:59.9999 CST, so there is precedent ;-) |
| 05:01.14 | Psi_ | if they start taking preorders at the same time things are going to get very busy very quickly :P |
| 05:01.17 | aloril | but press release is easier ;-) |
| 05:01.23 | aloril | hehe |
| 05:04.18 | aloril | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC-12 |
| 05:04.30 | aloril | so ... I guess there is still wiggle room of 6 hours |
| 05:06.32 | rwhitby | guys, read from Feb 11 14:08:51 onwards in http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/oe/oe.20070212.txt |
| 05:07.08 | *** join/#openmoko wiml (n=wiml@underhill.hhhh.org) |
| 05:09.45 | k-y | rwhitby: why |
| 05:10.38 | rwhitby | k-y: it is as close to official word as you are going to get regarding source availability |
| 05:10.52 | k-y | i see |
| 05:11.05 | rwhitby | (until someone else official says something else) |
| 05:12.27 | *** join/#openmoko darmou (n=darmou@203-206-183-196.perm.iinet.net.au) |
| 05:24.48 | *** join/#openmoko Marex-Yggdrasil (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 05:25.15 | *** join/#openmoko Marex (n=Marex@85.132.236.161) |
| 05:50.35 | alphaone | https://www.spreadshirt.net/shop.php?sid=211795 |
| 05:52.46 | CoreDump|home | counter |
| 05:52.46 | aloril | 00:07:13 (0.005 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.005 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.005 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (250) |
| 05:54.41 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 05:57.45 | *** join/#openmoko vrt (n=vrt@unaffiliated/cherubiel) |
| 05:58.14 | wiml | *tick tick tick* |
| 05:59.14 | Marex | counter |
| 05:59.14 | aloril | 00:00:45 (0.001 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.001 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.001 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (251) |
| 05:59.58 | aloril | counter |
| 05:59.58 | aloril | 00:00:01 (0.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (252) |
| 06:00.00 | aloril | counter |
| 06:00.00 | aloril | released any time for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 3 weeks, 6 days 23:59:59 (28.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 6 months, 3 weeks, 6 days (212.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (253) |
| 06:00.05 | wiml | *ding*! |
| 06:00.16 | Psi_ | i dont feel any different |
| 06:00.17 | aloril | counter |
| 06:01.04 | aloril | counter |
| 06:01.04 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 05:58:55 (0.249 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.249 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.249 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (255) |
| 06:01.16 | wiml | Awww. |
| 06:01.24 | CoreDump|home | lol |
| 06:01.37 | aloril | first one was to CST ;-) |
| 06:01.54 | aloril | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC-12 |
| 06:02.24 | ENd__ | anybody here, or just bots ;)? |
| 06:02.37 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.133.110.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 06:03.00 | wiml | we're all bots on this bus |
| 06:03.01 | maydaytx | domo arigato |
| 06:03.02 | weez | just us bot :) |
| 06:03.12 | weez | er bots |
| 06:03.19 | alphaone | ENd__: So you consider yourself a bot? :-) |
| 06:03.43 | maydaytx | i'm a finite automaton |
| 06:03.49 | ENd__ | ok |
| 06:04.12 | ENd__ | alphaone: you have cleverly discovered an exploit in my wording |
| 06:04.40 | ENd__ | so, will anyone answer my question, or is there a different channel someone could suggest for me to pose it in? |
| 06:05.58 | wiml | what was your question? |
| 06:09.15 | aloril | there are 50 hours of release window for 2007-02-11 -) |
| 06:10.24 | alphaone | ENd__: Most of the nicks in here are people, not bots |
| 06:11.12 | ENd__ | alphaone: ok, so will you answer my question? is no one seeing it, maybe it's too long and the server is rejecting it? |
| 06:12.37 | alphaone | ENd__: I don't see your question in this channel. |
| 06:12.59 | aloril | ENd__: first line I saw from you was: "2007-02-12 08:02:24 <ENd__> anybody here, or just bots ;)?" |
| 06:13.02 | alphaone | Well, other than whether I will answer yours.. |
| 06:13.12 | ENd__ | ok, i'll break it up, i've sent it twice now, which would explain why no one has answered it |
| 06:13.23 | ENd__ | Hey all, I have a question that relates to this operating system, as well as the hardware which it might run on; I have compiled my own kernel for linux a few times, and each time the process has pretty much been: add drivers for your buses, the components on them, and in general the protocols which you want the kernel to support. I have only ever done this via the menuconfig utility, meaning the drivers came prepackaged with the kernel. My |
| 06:13.28 | ENd__ | pretty much everything is going to be heavily integrated on the circuit board), with an ARM processor, how do I set up the buses so I can access my components (Ex. WiFi module with integrated MAC, processor, over SPI bus) into the system (do i have to get bus masters for my SPI and other buses and place them on the AHB bus), and how do I in turn add support for communication with these components to the kernel at build time? As an aside, what |
| 06:13.28 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess |
| 06:13.32 | ENd__ | see it now? |
| 06:14.31 | *** join/#openmoko cprf_ (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 06:14.52 | aloril | yes, seems automatic reply didn't hit right this time ;-) |
| 06:16.12 | *** join/#openmoko sureshkumar (n=suresh@196.12.43.162) |
| 06:16.21 | aloril | (also seems your questions are cut: "... prepackaged with the kernel. M" and "... As an aside, wha" |
| 06:16.24 | aloril | ) |
| 06:16.29 | sureshkumar | Hi all |
| 06:16.36 | aloril | hi sureshkumar |
| 06:16.53 | sureshkumar | Can anyone let me know whether OpenMoko open Source code is released or not |
| 06:17.07 | sureshkumar | Hi aloril |
| 06:17.31 | sureshkumar | Any idea on the release of Source code |
| 06:17.35 | aloril | counter |
| 06:17.35 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 05:42:24 (0.238 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.238 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.238 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (256) |
| 06:17.40 | ENd__ | aloril: ugh, i'll just pastebin it |
| 06:17.44 | aloril | not yet |
| 06:18.13 | *** join/#openmoko merriam (n=merriam@84-12-152-141.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 06:18.26 | sureshkumar | it was supposed to be released by 11th Feb 2007 |
| 06:18.27 | *** join/#openmoko cworth (n=cworth@c-67-160-161-141.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 06:18.38 | ENd__ | http://rafb.net/p/9OGZ0n81.txt |
| 06:18.44 | wiml | not sure I understand the question (and not sure I have enough kernel-fu to answer it) but as I understand it even SoCs tend to have normal-looking buses that happen to be entirely on-chip |
| 06:18.48 | aloril | sureshkumar: there is still left some hours of 2007-02-11: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC-12 |
| 06:18.50 | aloril | ;-) |
| 06:19.21 | wiml | ahh, you're ahead of me |
| 06:19.43 | rwhitby | ENd__: the answer to your question is that you'll use OpenEmbedded and it will have preconfigured .config for the Neo device. |
| 06:19.59 | sureshkumar | ok |
| 06:20.35 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux (n=sri@59.92.133.6) |
| 06:20.38 | sureshkumar | I can understand that I am ahead of you, but is there any web address or link, where I can check whether it is released or not |
| 06:21.06 | sureshkumar | I am trying to open openmoko.org, but the link is not responding |
| 06:21.29 | ENd__ | rwhitby: i'm not talking about neo1973, i'm talking about other devices, as a general question. assuming linux driver sources are available, and the device does not otherwise have preconfigured profiles/make files, what would it look like to configure such a device to detect devices on the native (on chip) AHB bus, |
| 06:21.52 | aloril | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/ or http://openmoko.org/ maybe |
| 06:22.19 | rwhitby | ENd__: why would you expect to get an answer to that question here? |
| 06:22.31 | ENd__ | rwhitby: *not detect, but interact with soccuessfully at any rate. and more importantly, how do i configure devices which live on an spi bus whose bus master is on the ahb bus |
| 06:22.40 | aloril | ENd__: #oe ? |
| 06:22.57 | rwhitby | linux-arm-kernel mailing list perhaps |
| 06:23.01 | ENd__ | rwhitby: i was under the impression openmoko was an os, not a hardware platform? |
| 06:23.18 | wiml | (I kind of know the answer to that for bsd, but not for linux) |
| 06:23.33 | rwhitby | ENd__: normally there is machine-specific setup code (i.e. look in arch/arm/mach-ixp4xx/nslu2-setup.c) which does things like that. |
| 06:24.02 | sureshkumar | Hey guys, can anyone tell me whether Openmoko had released their source code or not? If yes, from where can I download and if not, can you update me on the release news. |
| 06:24.13 | dottedmag | counter |
| 06:24.13 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 05:35:46 (0.233 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.233 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.233 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (257) |
| 06:24.30 | aloril | sureshkumar: AFAIC: not yet |
| 06:24.35 | rwhitby | ENd__: openmoko is a software platform for mobile devices, yes. It runs on a linux kernel. How the kernel is configured is really up to the hardware device support in the kernel, not the OpenMoko software. |
| 06:25.22 | ENd__ | rwhitby, aloril: fair enough, i'll take a look at the arch setup files you pointed me to, and ask around in #oe |
| 06:25.26 | ENd__ | ty |
| 06:25.32 | cjb | to put it another way, openmoko is a userland stack. |
| 06:25.54 | cjb | (I imagine even a Linux kernel isn't a hard requirement; many kernels can run GPE/OpenEmbedded.) |
| 06:26.01 | rwhitby | cjb: nod |
| 06:26.18 | rd_ | well, there would be some kernel patches for openmoko? |
| 06:26.24 | aloril | there is no guarantee counter will be right this time either, but if not, then hard to say release is 2007-02-11 (unless you move away for some light hours or days and release from that point ;-) |
| 06:26.30 | sureshkumar | aloril: Any info on the messaging support available in OpenMoko? |
| 06:26.44 | cjb | rd_: perhaps, but they would only be relevant for the hardware in the Neo, which isn't what we're talking about. |
| 06:27.44 | sureshkumar | aloril: Can you inform me the link to download the openmoko, once it is released? |
| 06:28.07 | sureshkumar | aloril: I am unable to access openmoko.org |
| 06:28.52 | aloril | sureshkumar: I can load it, but it just says "Please stay tuned. This site will go public once the Neo1973 product is launched. Meanwhile we ask you to visit openmoko.com" |
| 06:29.35 | aloril | sureshkumar: umm.. I would http://openmoko.org/ to change (or you can join here and look at topic, that probably changes too once release happens) |
| 06:30.21 | aloril | sureshkumar: btw.. why are you so interested about messaging support in OpenMoko? |
| 06:30.34 | *** join/#openmoko swissy (n=swissy@84-74-83-99.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 06:30.44 | swissy | counter |
| 06:30.44 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 05:29:15 (0.229 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.229 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.229 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (258) |
| 06:31.06 | sureshkumar | aloril: Can we expect the release by today? Also what is the current time at OpenMoko release centre. I am unable to understand the counter |
| 06:31.48 | alphaone | sureshkumar: The release has been delayed due to technical difficulties. |
| 06:32.00 | alphaone | How long exactly is anyones guess |
| 06:32.25 | sureshkumar | alphaone: how do we know when it is released? |
| 06:32.44 | aloril | sureshkumar: counter shows remaining time until last time zone on earth changes day from 2007-02-11 to 2007-02-12 |
| 06:32.45 | Psi_ | they are probably trying to run the webserver off a neo :P |
| 06:32.54 | *** part/#openmoko wiml (n=wiml@underhill.hhhh.org) |
| 06:33.25 | sureshkumar | alphaone: Any link or web address to check the status of release? |
| 06:34.23 | sureshkumar | aloril: ok. That means we might had to wait at max for another 5 hours 28 minutes for the release to happen on 11th Feb 2007 |
| 06:34.42 | aloril | sureshkumar: subscribe to https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/announce |
| 06:35.05 | aloril | sureshkumar: then you should get mail once source is released |
| 06:35.52 | alphaone | sureshkumar: Also the source will probably show up on www.openmoko.org or svn.openmoko.org will be unrestricted. |
| 06:36.19 | alphaone | Currently I check for a change in openmoko.org: |
| 06:36.21 | alphaone | while true; do wget -q -O test http://www.openmoko.org; diff index.html test >/dev/null; if [ $? -ne "0" ] ; then echo 15 > /proc/acpi/ibm/beep; fi; sleep 10; done |
| 06:36.22 | alphaone | :-) |
| 06:36.53 | Psi_ | heh |
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| 07:22.57 | koen | counter |
| 07:22.58 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 04:37:02 (0.192 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.192 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.192 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (259) |
| 07:32.37 | CM | Don't know if this link has already been posted, but it's a nice shirt anyway: http://www.totalueberwachung.de/blog/articles/2007/02/12/official-unofficial-openmoko-t-shirts |
| 07:35.56 | hrw | morning |
| 07:36.01 | CM | :) |
| 07:39.15 | *** join/#openmoko Eblis (n=Miranda@82.77.126.134) |
| 07:39.25 | Eblis | counter |
| 07:39.26 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 04:20:34 (0.181 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.181 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.181 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (260) |
| 07:40.31 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 07:52.07 | aloril | about GPRS and voice: can't do it at same time in Neo1973 (according to ML), but in my experience you can keep GPRS connection open all the time |
| 07:52.43 | aloril | when voice call comes, GPRS just suspends and if voice call is enough short, then after it ends GPRS resumes and connection is still alive |
| 07:52.54 | koen | right |
| 07:53.14 | koen | if the cell tower is not too busy |
| 07:53.58 | aloril | also I don't think drains battery that much (though I tend to use somewhat heavily phone, still usually charging once/day is enough) |
| 07:54.28 | aloril | haven't tested how long just GPRS being on would allow, but most likely more than day (maybe several days?) |
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| 07:55.09 | aloril | I think if I haven't used phone much, even with GPRS being on its near full charge at end of day, but .. not sure |
| 07:55.44 | aloril | maybe GPRS with little traffic is basically same power usage than waiting for GSM calls? |
| 07:56.45 | aloril | (or in other words: put it near speakers and it will be quiet most of time ;-) |
| 07:56.54 | rwhitby | examination of the 3gpp protocol specs for gprs/gsm would provide the answers :-) |
| 07:58.02 | hrw | I hope that neo1973 will be able to really keep gprs session |
| 07:58.24 | hrw | I have per each 500KB payments |
| 07:59.49 | hrw | koen: //mickeyl-laptop/vaporware/openmoko/ ? |
| 08:02.53 | lucas123 | isn't it at least 4 more hours away? |
| 08:04.10 | hrw | aloril: I do not use gprs on current one |
| 08:04.31 | fluffs | good morning people... |
| 08:04.41 | koen | hey fluffs |
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| 08:08.16 | _-InFeRnO-_ | hello |
| 08:08.43 | _-InFeRnO-_ | so was the src released or you are still waiting |
| 08:09.49 | fluffs | it seems we are still waiting |
| 08:10.01 | _-InFeRnO-_ | pfft |
| 08:10.13 | _-InFeRnO-_ | it should have been 2 hrs ago |
| 08:10.51 | ecraven | :( |
| 08:12.01 | aloril | _-InFeRnO-_: in CST, but can still be 4 hours away in UCT-12 ;-) |
| 08:12.08 | _-InFeRnO-_ | no |
| 08:12.19 | _-InFeRnO-_ | people said that |
| 08:12.40 | _-InFeRnO-_ | it would be avalaible a half day after 8 PM in BG |
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| 08:22.41 | jeddy3 | counter |
| 08:22.41 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 03:37:18 (0.151 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.151 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.151 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (261) |
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| 08:46.17 | xkr47 | counter |
| 08:46.17 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 03:13:42 (0.135 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.135 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.135 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (262) |
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| 08:53.04 | koen | still 401 everywhere :( |
| 08:53.44 | ecraven | still about 3 hours?!? |
| 08:56.30 | rd_ | i hope that i can see the source before I go to airport for a long flight :D |
| 08:59.03 | xkr47 | "wow, a for loop" |
| 08:59.38 | xkr47 | ok sorry |
| 08:59.46 | xkr47 | that was not very nice of me *apologizes* |
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| 09:27.33 | _-InFeRnO-_ | still no source? |
| 09:28.15 | koen | nope |
| 09:28.28 | koen | you can check yourself by going to svn.openmoko.org |
| 09:28.36 | XorA | 3 days |
| 09:28.48 | koen | hey XorA |
| 09:30.23 | koen | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003165.html |
| 09:30.52 | XorA | koen: a day ahead of yah :-D |
| 09:31.22 | hrw | no phones before fosdem too |
| 09:32.23 | XorA | hrw: I think you will see a few phones drifting about in FOSDEM |
| 09:33.09 | rwhitby | I'm gonna need to postpone my LinuxSA session ... :-( |
| 09:33.12 | hrw | XorA: to see != to test != to hack |
| 09:33.38 | koen | XorA: I wonder why that mail wasn't posted to announce or -devel |
| 09:33.50 | robtaylor | ah,good call fron sean there |
| 09:34.29 | hrw | so now I can hope that devs will get phone before 13 March. or on Pingwinaria we will talk about something which cannot be tested on hardware |
| 09:34.44 | robtaylor | new i can tell mickey all the things hes done wrong before anyone's running it ;) |
| 09:35.07 | robtaylor | hrw: Pingwinaria? |
| 09:35.07 | rd_ | koen, svn.openmoko.org couldnt access without user/password |
| 09:35.21 | hrw | robtaylor: Polish Linux event in middle of March |
| 09:35.35 | XorA | koen: the openmoko team have been sweating steel balls to get this far, give them some slack for forgetting a CC :-) |
| 09:35.48 | robtaylor | hrw: oh, cool. yeah hope you get it by then :) |
| 09:35.59 | koen | XorA: no, it's about forgetting the developers |
| 09:37.14 | hrw | koen: who would care about them... |
| 09:37.15 | robtaylor | koen: not really. i just don't think Sean's had enough time to even notice there's a -devel list yet |
| 09:38.36 | koen | I still don't get why the software has to wait 3 more days |
| 09:39.21 | hrw | koen: forwarded to devel |
| 09:39.38 | rd_ | koen, yeah, if it's a live project, the sources can be change daily,there would be no different to release today or 3 days later |
| 09:39.40 | robtaylor | koen: makeing sure it builds and the HOWTO's are done? |
| 09:39.45 | koen | hrw: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-February/000312.html |
| 09:40.03 | koen | robtaylor: it doesn't build and it won't build in 3 days at this rate |
| 09:40.04 | rd_ | i guess they need some code clean up before open it |
| 09:40.10 | rd_ | XorA, lol |
| 09:40.31 | robtaylor | koen: michey would get a lot of stick and questions if there weren't hotos and it hadn't been tested building on a clean system |
| 09:40.55 | hrw | koen: soft like soft.. they want to make it buildable more or less |
| 09:41.16 | koen | hrw: release it and *we* can fix it in less than 3 days |
| 09:41.22 | hrw | but why no wiki at all? |
| 09:41.24 | robtaylor | koen: |
| 09:41.28 | hrw | koen: I'm busy with work |
| 09:41.28 | fluffs | less for the 2.6.20 dev is fine by me... present arrived from samsung |
| 09:41.28 | robtaylor | koen: *you* can |
| 09:41.45 | hrw | koen: other devices to support are more important now for me |
| 09:41.45 | XorA | koen: when did you know mickeyl and LaForge to be anything less than perfectionists? |
| 09:41.51 | robtaylor | koen: think about everyon else that would try and would come asking for help |
| 09:41.59 | *** join/#openmoko TRIsoft (n=mac@p57A2D947.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 09:42.01 | koen | robtaylor: if I fix it I commit the fixes |
| 09:42.03 | hrw | hi Mac |
| 09:42.09 | TRIsoft | hi |
| 09:42.12 | koen | robtaylor: that's how it works |
| 09:42.25 | robtaylor | koen: i know, thats not the point i'm making |
| 09:42.42 | rd_ | koen, i agree |
| 09:42.45 | koen | robtaylor: if FIC doesn't trust us enough, that's a very bad sign |
| 09:42.56 | robtaylor | koen: its not a matter of trust |
| 09:43.05 | robtaylor | koen: its just a matter of being sensible |
| 09:43.35 | robtaylor | koen: like, i want to test my pre-release of dbus-glib before i make it a release |
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| 09:43.49 | koen | robtaylor: and what will you say when it doesn't build in 3 days? |
| 09:43.57 | XorA | koen: trust me, FIC dont have any such opinion, its just with the workload, people need time to finalise, fix, clean and make presentable |
| 09:44.27 | XorA | koen: and remeber mickeyl is also finalising his PHd at the same time |
| 09:44.33 | Eblis | counter |
| 09:44.33 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 02:15:26 (0.094 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.094 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.094 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (263) |
| 09:44.37 | robtaylor | koen: it'll build, i'm prety sure. mickeyl would want it to be perfect |
| 09:44.44 | Eblis | aloril: you can change the counter :) |
| 09:44.50 | koen | XorA: the more reason to let *us* fix it for them |
| 09:44.52 | robtaylor | koen: chill dude :) |
| 09:45.08 | rd_ | koen, yeah |
| 09:45.20 | hrw | aloril: add week to source, month to phase0 phones, month to phase1 phones |
| 09:45.20 | robtaylor | koen: get mickeyl to give you access then ;) |
| 09:45.28 | rd_ | if they feel that the workload is too much, they should better to open it ealier |
| 09:45.30 | koen | robtaylor: already tried |
| 09:45.45 | hrw | XorA: mickeyl finalized PhD - he now rather prepare for defence |
| 09:45.45 | rd_ | its how opensource project going |
| 09:45.49 | koen | robtaylor: I offered to make it build against current .dev multiple times |
| 09:46.05 | robtaylor | koen: and response was negative or nonexistant? |
| 09:46.19 | koen | robtaylor: "have to ask FIC" |
| 09:46.52 | robtaylor | koen: well, but it this way, decisions take longer when there's a big company involved |
| 09:47.21 | koen | robtaylor: more than one month? |
| 09:47.32 | robtaylor | koen: you've no idea how much pain the OSSO dept has had in nokia, just getting things past the legal guys |
| 09:47.55 | koen | robtaylor: don't start about maemo |
| 09:48.04 | koen | robtaylor: I've pretty much given up on that |
| 09:48.04 | robtaylor | koen: i'vehad situations where there's been patches waiting in my local git tree for 2-3 months before i've been able to push them |
| 09:48.25 | robtaylor | koen: and its not dues to bad intentions on anyone's part. |
| 09:48.58 | robtaylor | koen: just big cos are hugely inefficient decision making machines |
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| 09:50.06 | koen | robtaylor: we can only guess why they are delaying 3 days, since FIC gave no explanation |
| 09:50.34 | robtaylor | koen: yeah. Howver i'm pretty impressed they're only delaying 3 days.. |
| 09:50.36 | koen | a broken jtag cable doesn't make gtk+ anymore slower |
| 09:51.01 | koen | maybe they're waiting for the integer pixops to work ;) |
| 09:51.08 | robtaylor | koen: heh |
| 09:51.35 | robtaylor | koen: is xan gonna work on that then? |
| 09:51.46 | koen | robtaylor: btw, dbus.fdo being down is a known problem? |
| 09:51.57 | robtaylor | we really need a test for compaison |
| 09:51.58 | robtaylor | hmm |
| 09:52.26 | koen | I had the idea to get dbus-glib 0.73 into OE before moko goes public |
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| 09:52.59 | robtaylor | wow. whole of fd.o.is down |
| 09:53.01 | SpeedEvil | I suppose they want jtag for an unbricker. |
| 09:53.12 | koen | robtaylor: git.fdo seems to work |
| 09:53.23 | robtaylor | koen: i can't even ssh in |
| 09:53.30 | koen | gitweb* |
| 09:53.30 | robtaylor | oh |
| 09:53.32 | robtaylor | gabe is down |
| 09:53.35 | robtaylor | annarchy's up |
| 09:54.17 | robtaylor | all of dbus is still hosted on gabe |
| 09:54.21 | robtaylor | poo |
| 09:55.25 | robtaylor | 09:54 -!- Topic for #freedesktop: gabe is okay. please do not panic. return to your homes. |
| 09:55.35 | robtaylor | heh |
| 09:55.44 | *** join/#openmoko i386 (n=james@46.25.233.220.exetel.com.au) |
| 09:56.04 | robtaylor | ok guess i just wait. koen, i'll push a tarball out as soon as gabe is back |
| 09:57.18 | *** join/#openmoko meandtheshell (n=markus@85-124-174-45.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) |
| 10:05.01 | *** join/#openmoko apardo (n=apardo@87.217.145.181) |
| 10:10.57 | sannes | what does "Less than a 7% yield rate " refer to? |
| 10:11.00 | robtaylor | koen: i really hope not, that would be a disaster for openmoko |
| 10:11.11 | buz | mhh so what is the good part of the announcement? |
| 10:11.21 | xkr47 | sannes, yeah wondered the same |
| 10:11.35 | koen | sannes: less than 7% works |
| 10:11.39 | hrw | buz: probably only the fact that it exist |
| 10:11.54 | koen | of the jtag connector |
| 10:12.19 | koen | robtaylor: I wouldn't be surprised if they did something like that |
| 10:12.31 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 10:13.03 | robtaylor | koen: i would be |
| 10:14.06 | robtaylor | mickey|zzZZzz: don't you dare make me wrong... ;) |
| 10:14.48 | sannes | koen: less than 7% of the software or the hardware? :P |
| 10:14.48 | chihchun | oh, it's late again. :( |
| 10:15.03 | robtaylor | sannes: yeild rate refers to hardware |
| 10:15.19 | *** join/#openmoko Paladine (n=Paladine@paladine.org.uk) |
| 10:15.23 | robtaylor | sannes: as in 7% of built devices work |
| 10:15.37 | xkr47 | fdflllljojonas bebrlin jonas bevlllljonas berlin jonaw berlin |
| 10:15.49 | robtaylor | xkr47: thats nice |
| 10:15.57 | sannes | ouch, .. hm, what is a typical number for that? |
| 10:16.08 | xkr47 | lol |
| 10:16.09 | rwhitby | geez, the level of cynicism in here is overpowering .. |
| 10:16.22 | xkr47 | poured some orange juice into my keyboard |
| 10:16.34 | xkr47 | was testing it, accidentally in irc :D |
| 10:16.37 | robtaylor | lol |
| 10:17.14 | robtaylor | koen: dbus-glib-0.73 archives ready for distribution: |
| 10:17.38 | *** part/#openmoko mitcheloc (n=mitchelo@titaniumsoft.net) |
| 10:21.47 | *** join/#openmoko anselm (n=nnanselm@64.71.151.167) |
| 10:24.07 | thresh | !counter |
| 10:24.17 | thresh | grmbl |
| 10:24.52 | Eblis | it's just 'counter' |
| 10:25.41 | *** join/#openmoko Stephmw (n=steph@212.69.51.139) |
| 10:28.17 | CoreDump|afk | someone should probably link that latest mail from sean into the topic ;) |
| 10:28.39 | hrw | CoreDump|afk: iirc only coreteam can |
| 10:29.16 | CoreDump|afk | no problem, just a suggestion. People will be asking "where's the source?!" all day long heh |
| 10:29.25 | *** topic/#openmoko by hrw -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | 2007 Roadmap: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html | unofficial Wiki @ http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ | Delay reason: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003165.html |
| 10:29.25 | *** topic/#openmoko by ChanServ -> OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | http://lists.openmoko.org | 2007 Roadmap: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html | unofficial Wiki @ http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ |
| 10:29.55 | CoreDump|afk | anyway, I appreciate the openness whith which FIC is handling the situation |
| 10:31.04 | robtaylor | koen: there you got your answer ;) |
| 10:31.11 | Eblis | heh, chanserv doesn't like your new topic :) |
| 10:31.34 | koen | robtaylor: indeed |
| 10:31.46 | robtaylor | hrw needs more power.. |
| 10:31.56 | koen | robtaylor: which begs the question what happens if the review is negative |
| 10:32.08 | Stephmw | Aaargh. can't believe no-one at work has a spare pci-x capable motherboard :( |
| 10:32.43 | robtaylor | koen: please, just relax... |
| 10:33.37 | koen | robtaylor: I am relaxed :) |
| 10:33.46 | koen | robtaylor: just thinking one step ahead :) |
| 10:33.52 | CoreDump|afk | yeah, you should see him when he's pissed off hehe |
| 10:34.37 | robtaylor | crapping hell =) |
| 10:35.47 | hrw | CoreDump|afk: atleast it exists and works |
| 10:36.04 | *** join/#openmoko Zer0HiT (n=Z@cpe-24-195-252-248.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 10:36.41 | CoreDump|afk | hrw: it has several firmware bugs and the friendly folks from Sony Ericsson want 25 Euro to flash a new firmware wtf? |
| 10:36.47 | CoreDump|afk | !praise neo1973 |
| 10:37.00 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 10:37.39 | *** join/#openmoko Morgaine (n=morgaine@cpc1-hem13-0-0-cust961.lutn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 10:37.47 | Eblis | counter |
| 10:37.48 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 01:22:12 (0.057 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.057 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.057 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (264) |
| 10:37.59 | hrw | CoreDump|afk: k700 cant be flashed with SEUS? |
| 10:38.22 | CoreDump|afk | hrw: if you purchase the docking station for ~50 bucks, sure =) |
| 10:38.44 | hrw | CoreDump|afk: k510i, k750i support flashing via usb cable |
| 10:39.17 | *** join/#openmoko ROB1963 (n=rob@p57A2D947.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:39.28 | CoreDump|afk | not sure about the k700i, IIRC mickey|zzZZzz bought the docking station and unlocked his phone |
| 10:40.07 | hrw | CoreDump|afk: k700i req station |
| 10:40.16 | hrw | just checked on official site |
| 10:40.44 | CoreDump|afk | doesn't matter now =) It's so old, it is beginning to fall apart hehe |
| 10:41.03 | *** join/#openmoko borg_ (n=olaf@80.149.17.21) |
| 10:42.21 | CoreDump|afk | looks like the big operators are going to hate the neo :\ No locking-down the phone w/ useless crap and forcing users to buy ringtones and stuff from their shops due to DRM |
| 10:42.25 | hrw | CoreDump|afk: you can also buy serial cable for phone |
| 10:42.51 | XorA | CoreDump|afk: none of the HTC phones are that locked down and they are popular in the UK |
| 10:43.13 | CoreDump|afk | i c |
| 10:43.42 | koen | XorA: don't tell the americanos :) |
| 10:43.49 | Elrond | counter |
| 10:43.50 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 01:16:10 (0.053 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.053 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.053 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (265) |
| 10:44.43 | CoreDump|afk | I hope they put a few "Free Your Phone" stickers into the box =) |
| 10:45.33 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=LuitvD@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 10:45.39 | koen | the south of .nl is grinding to a halt and it seems asia as well |
| 10:45.45 | ROB1963 | yes, koen, that sucks |
| 10:46.19 | LuitvD | what is grinding to a halt? :P |
| 10:46.30 | CoreDump|afk | the windmills |
| 10:46.48 | ROB1963 | rofl |
| 10:47.01 | fluffs | LuitvD: it means all work is stopping |
| 10:47.20 | LuitvD | all work on openmoko? :? |
| 10:47.24 | koen | below the big rivers everyone will the drinking lots of beer for 3 days |
| 10:47.29 | LuitvD | counter |
| 10:47.30 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 01:12:30 (0.050 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.050 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.050 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (266) |
| 10:47.39 | koen | I imagine chinese new year will be like that as well |
| 10:47.45 | CoreDump|afk | someone should update that counter :\ |
| 10:47.59 | buz | chinese new year is all fireworks |
| 10:48.12 | hrw | aloril should run bot for counter - this way I could add it into ignore |
| 10:48.15 | ROB1963 | no, chinese new year is worse! |
| 10:48.37 | buz | lots of beers sure beats lots of learning for exam |
| 10:48.58 | ROB1963 | whats written in it? |
| 10:49.09 | TRIsoft | ... and reads : You'll get a Neo (sooner or later) |
| 10:49.39 | koen | "we want to show authority, in behaviour as well as appearance" |
| 10:49.52 | buz | uhm isnt posting yield data a big nono in most industries? |
| 10:50.12 | koen | buz: maybe for final products |
| 10:50.18 | CoreDump|afk | this is pre-production |
| 10:51.49 | buz | mhh |
| 10:51.54 | buz | that samsung iphone thingy is winmobile |
| 10:52.51 | buz | http://www.mobile-review.com/exhibition/2007-3gsm-samsung-en.shtml |
| 10:52.59 | buz | thats what i want for neo v2 |
| 10:53.06 | buz | or rather the toshiba thing |
| 10:54.34 | Morgaine | 5 megapixels ... cameraphones are changing. ;-) They'll probably be limited only by lens size/quality soon. |
| 10:54.43 | i386 | win mobile is horrid :( |
| 10:54.58 | pH5 | wm6? yay, easy to reverse engineer. only the keyboard on the f700 looks a bit cheap. |
| 10:55.17 | koen | buz: that u600 looks pretty neat |
| 10:55.19 | XorA | BTW WTF is up with that video bounty for Neo1973, that will only pay out if you dont use a media player |
| 10:55.46 | pH5 | XorA: :) first to play a video with e2fsck gets paid |
| 10:56.14 | LuitvD | Morgaine: there's a new type of cameralenses that's less then a millimeter high |
| 10:56.41 | Morgaine | LuitvD: the folding ones, yeah. Not in production though afaik |
| 10:56.48 | LuitvD | not yet |
| 10:56.59 | *** join/#openmoko florian (n=fuchs@217.146.132.69) |
| 10:57.06 | LuitvD | buz: that is indeed a nice phone... too bad it's win mobile |
| 10:58.01 | raynet | hoo.. Nokia E90 looks nice, might be my next IRC phone |
| 10:58.11 | raynet | http://europe.nokia.com/A4346040 |
| 10:58.13 | LuitvD | is it true the neo will have a 640x480 pixel LCD? :| |
| 10:58.30 | koen | LuitvD: no, it will have a 480x640 display |
| 10:58.36 | LuitvD | heheh |
| 10:58.39 | LuitvD | okay, sorry :P |
| 10:58.58 | raynet | 600x800 would have been nice |
| 10:59.01 | LuitvD | will openmoko support the rotation of the screen? |
| 10:59.20 | CoreDump|afk | most likely |
| 10:59.29 | rwhitby | 1920x1280 with a geforce processor would have been better ... |
| 10:59.31 | LuitvD | raynet: 1024x1280 would have been absurd :P |
| 10:59.40 | LuitvD | damn, beaten |
| 10:59.41 | LuitvD | :P |
| 11:00.03 | raynet | LuitvD: nope with vector based desktop it would matter how great the resolution is, it will just look better |
| 11:00.06 | Psi_ | i reckon a slightly bigger phone would be good |
| 11:00.20 | highvoltage | yeah but the battery life would've sucked |
| 11:00.22 | Psi_ | but then, until i actually see the neo in my hand its hard to tell |
| 11:00.38 | raynet | ofcourse reading a 8 pixel font on 5" screen with HDTV resolution might require a magnifying glass but atleast there would be accessories to sell |
| 11:00.47 | LuitvD | raynet: i know, but the pixel size would be impossibly small... |
| 11:01.03 | XorA | HD macro pr0n :-) |
| 11:01.07 | LuitvD | heheheh |
| 11:01.24 | Morgaine | The v1 physical design is odd, I don't understand it (the large round bits) --- it's harder to pack components into round areas, and the large hole in the bottom end makes it even harder. Large expanses of featureless plastic don't look so good either, so I'm puzzled by it. |
| 11:01.26 | LuitvD | too bad the neo doesn't have that much storage... |
| 11:01.32 | florian | good morning |
| 11:01.35 | LuitvD | can it do USB-host? :D |
| 11:01.43 | raynet | LuitvD: well, i have used a 300DPI LCD and it beats normal 70-90DPI LCDs.. except with Windows because Windows doesnt know how to scale the desktop/fonts/whatnot to correct DPI |
| 11:02.34 | *** join/#openmoko Tauras (n=tauras@mail.2xsoftware.com) |
| 11:02.40 | LuitvD | raynet: yes, but the current neo (480x640) is already 285DPI... 800x600 would be... 400dpi? 450? |
| 11:02.42 | Elrond | LuitvD - Yes, but unpowered. You need a power hub. |
| 11:02.52 | LuitvD | Elrond: no I won't :) |
| 11:02.54 | raynet | LuitvD: sure, but it doesnt matter |
| 11:03.11 | raynet | LuitvD: if could be 1000000DPI and it would be just as easy to read.. |
| 11:03.28 | LuitvD | raynet: invisibly small pixels would be nice, yes... but affordable? :P |
| 11:03.44 | aloril2 | Eblin: made tiny change, I'll edit it more later (and probably move stuff to wiki too) to make it shorter |
| 11:03.52 | Elrond | Morgaine - It has too look cute for mum and dad to like it. ;) |
| 11:03.59 | raynet | LuitvD: well, it isnt supposed to be free as in beer :) |
| 11:04.04 | Elrond | Anyway... Need food, be back in an hour. |
| 11:04.16 | LuitvD | Elrond: my MP3 player (20 gb) is unpowered (needs a seperate power supply) :) |
| 11:05.02 | LuitvD | that'd be great, watching movies on a Neo1973, with the storage on an MP3 player |
| 11:05.12 | XorA | the neo case is VERY comfy in my hand |
| 11:05.26 | Morgaine | Elrond: yeah, but v1 doesn't look cute, it looks like a large slab, hehe. Doesn't matter to us, we're buying it for openness, but for Phase 2, I think design matters ... they need to pay more attention to the exterior. |
| 11:05.40 | koen | XorA: how big/small are your hands? |
| 11:05.45 | LuitvD | XorA: aww, stop that :P Now I want one too |
| 11:05.57 | hrw | Morgaine: photos are in wiki |
| 11:06.02 | hrw | Morgaine: but wiki is closed still |
| 11:06.07 | raynet | Morgaine: no no.. i don't want it to be mainstream. it should only be for us :) |
| 11:06.07 | CoreDump|afk | mehh |
| 11:06.26 | XorA | koen: not sure how to answer that one |
| 11:06.37 | LuitvD | if I'd had the knowledge I'd write the drivers myself :) so that I could maybe get one for free... |
| 11:06.49 | LuitvD | damn, I hate being a n00b at linux :P |
| 11:07.11 | hrw | koen: you want to know size? |
| 11:07.22 | Morgaine | raynet: hehe. I would love the Neo to not have a Phase 2 for Mom+Dad, but be tailored physically to geek needs. Yes, I would happily pay more if it featured a lot of h/w geek goodness. |
| 11:08.16 | raynet | Morgaine: fortunately it probably wont ever be for mom+dad phone. |
| 11:08.47 | Morgaine | hrw: cool. I'm in no rush, I think its the right decision to delay a little until the problem is resolved. |
| 11:08.58 | raynet | oh, what was the GPS chipset used in Openmoko? |
| 11:09.47 | Morgaine | raynet: well, if it'll never be for Mom+Dad, then providing only 2 buttons, and a large expanse of featureless plastic makes no sense at all!!! |
| 11:10.14 | raynet | Morgaine: humm.. so no softkeys? :) |
| 11:11.15 | Morgaine | That's precisely what I'm saying ... the v1 physical design fell between two stools because of the Mom+Dad -- Yes/No??? -- dichotomy. |
| 11:11.30 | raynet | hummm |
| 11:11.38 | Morgaine | I hope v2 is designed with a specific target audience. |
| 11:11.56 | ROB1963 | Mom + Dad will love the Neo for its big screen an simple useablilty (hopefully)! |
| 11:11.56 | koen | raynet: GL hammerhead |
| 11:12.01 | raynet | koen: ah, thanks |
| 11:12.07 | LuitvD | Morgaine: I hope it's somewhat like that new samsung thing |
| 11:13.07 | raynet | full keyboard would be nice |
| 11:13.20 | Morgaine | LuitvD: yeah, that's a good compromise design because it's a mom+dad or iphone generation phone from the outside, but slide it out and the keyboard makes it a geek dream. |
| 11:13.55 | LuitvD | it still beats on-screen keyboards or handwriting |
| 11:14.49 | LuitvD | maybe I should try to get that broken HTC off my friend :P try to fix it, and put linux on it |
| 11:16.02 | XorA | LuitvD: the Wizard? |
| 11:16.26 | LuitvD | the wizard what? |
| 11:16.45 | XorA | LuitvD: HTC wizard |
| 11:16.46 | Morgaine | Puts on his hat? |
| 11:16.57 | LuitvD | nooo, wrong, eww :P |
| 11:17.20 | *** join/#openmoko serzholino (n=serzholi@16x.zp.ua) |
| 11:17.52 | LuitvD | XorA: I don't have a clue... :P |
| 11:18.07 | LuitvD | a quite old one, sold as the T-mobile MDA Vario |
| 11:18.18 | LuitvD | that's an HTC phone right? |
| 11:18.40 | LuitvD | HTC TyTn? possibly? |
| 11:18.46 | XorA | LuitvD: thats the HTC Wizard |
| 11:19.01 | XorA | LuitvD: linwizard.sf.net is the linux port for it |
| 11:19.14 | LuitvD | lol, thanks |
| 11:19.44 | LuitvD | working? |
| 11:20.13 | LuitvD | one of my friends has a broken one, t-mobile said they couldn't fix it... must be a battery issue or something... |
| 11:20.24 | LuitvD | I really want to try to fix it :P |
| 11:20.31 | LuitvD | or just HAVE it for that matter |
| 11:20.40 | XorA | LuitvD: Vario is my phone until Neo is released |
| 11:20.50 | *** part/#openmoko srikantux_ (n=sri@59.96.42.192) |
| 11:20.54 | LuitvD | meh, want a Neo too... |
| 11:23.15 | ecraven | until we get the neo, what are alternative phones that are open and run linux? |
| 11:23.59 | LuitvD | tuxphone? :P |
| 11:24.12 | LuitvD | DIY gumstix phone |
| 11:24.36 | Morgaine | Am I right in thinking that because Neo will have full access to the ETSI GSM AT-command set at the UART, then it'll be more powerful than a PDA + Bluetooth phone as modem? Ie. the full ETSI command set isn't presented across a Bluetooth link? |
| 11:24.45 | Morgaine | Not seen anyone comment on this before. |
| 11:29.45 | robtaylor | Morgaine: i didn't think you talk AT commands when using DUN |
| 11:30.22 | Morgaine | robtaylor: Don't mean in DUN, just using a Bluetooth SPP into the modem. |
| 11:31.24 | robtaylor | Morgaine: ah, yeah. Well teh bluetooth spec says ETSI 07.07, what's implemented in most devices though.. who knows =) |
| 11:32.53 | Morgaine | robtaylor: that does suggest the same level of flexibility from PDA+phone then, with the added advantage that the phone side can be treated as throw-away. |
| 11:33.19 | robtaylor | Morgaine: well, indeed, i think that's nokia's take. |
| 11:33.33 | Morgaine | Oh, I see, you mean 770/800 |
| 11:33.59 | robtaylor | Morgaine: though the subset of AT commands that a bluetooth device *needs* to understand to be spec complient is actually quite small |
| 11:34.28 | Morgaine | robtaylor: fair enough. Is it actually working out that in in practice though, is the question. 770 was not fully open as I recall. |
| 11:34.31 | robtaylor | (see the table in chapter 4 of the DUN profile) |
| 11:35.06 | robtaylor | Morgaine: well,on the 800 most of the infrastrcuture is open, but all the ui is closed |
| 11:35.50 | robtaylor | its using bluez now for all the bluetooth stuff (N hired core bluez hackers, it seems) |
| 11:36.10 | Morgaine | Marcel works on Maemo? |
| 11:36.53 | robtaylor | Johan Hedberg does, i think |
| 11:37.46 | *** part/#openmoko serzholino (n=serzholi@16x.zp.ua) |
| 11:38.08 | Morgaine | I guess that's not the hockey player ... |
| 11:39.01 | Morgaine | Ah, adding +bluez helped ;-) |
| 11:39.31 | robtaylor | heh |
| 11:43.59 | *** join/#openmoko Laibsch (n=Laibsch@p4020-ipbf2103marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) |
| 11:47.58 | Morgaine | How does one provide input to a vt session on Neo, when X11 is down? |
| 11:50.57 | rd_ | Morgaine, :p .. should be some kind of console based virtual keyboard ? |
| 11:51.29 | Morgaine | rd_: that's why I asked, as I know only of X11-based virtual keyboards ;-) |
| 11:51.30 | LuitvD | lol |
| 11:52.08 | LuitvD | Morgaine: someone shoud write something that is similar to console-mouse services |
| 11:52.20 | hrw | xkr47: I use ps/2 keyboard + ps/2 mouse via '2 x ps/2 -> usb' adapter |
| 11:52.29 | rd_ | LuitvD, yeah |
| 11:52.29 | hrw | xkr47: Bus 002 Device 003: ID 0a81:0205 Chesen Electronics Corp. PS/2 Keyboard+Mouse Adapter |
| 11:52.31 | xkr47 | yeah.. but while it's connected to the pc.. |
| 11:52.38 | rd_ | or maybe attach your external keyboard |
| 11:52.56 | Morgaine | Well we can expect a Bluetooth keyboard to work out of the box on a vt, and indeed even a Bt mouse into gpm. But the question was for without external Bt hardware. |
| 11:52.58 | LuitvD | or, if the Neo has IR, some keyboard like Palm devices |
| 11:53.08 | xkr47 | hrw, one could always use a kvm of course :) |
| 11:53.47 | LuitvD | xkr47: but linux aint linux without a simple bash terminal ;) |
| 11:53.55 | LuitvD | for me... |
| 11:54.01 | xkr47 | mm |
| 11:54.10 | Morgaine | Indeed, the vt's have to work, independently. Just wondering how. |
| 11:54.52 | xkr47 | well, 14 keys can surely fit on 640 pixels wide |
| 11:54.52 | LuitvD | Morgaine: maybe even more importantly, how to switch terminals :P |
| 11:54.58 | *** join/#openmoko n (n=n@BSN-210-239-233.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 11:55.10 | Morgaine | LuitvD: oh, I use ESP for that |
| 11:55.12 | LuitvD | like switching from tty1 to xterm |
| 11:55.13 | xkr47 | LuitvD, alt + f1 :) |
| 11:55.32 | LuitvD | xkr47: alt + f1? I always use CTRL + ALT + f1 |
| 11:55.42 | rd_ | LuitvD, ctrl alt fx |
| 11:55.43 | xkr47 | sure.. but the other way |
| 11:55.52 | LuitvD | :P |
| 11:55.56 | xkr47 | ctrl is only needed when in X |
| 11:56.11 | rd_ | xkr47, yep |
| 11:56.20 | LuitvD | oeh, thanks for that... now I know Alt + F1 opens the menu :) |
| 11:56.21 | xkr47 | and even then you can reconfigure X to bind the "VT_SWITCH" events to whatever key combos you like |
| 11:57.04 | xkr47 | heh |
| 11:57.04 | Morgaine | AFAICS, vt sessions are screwed unless a framebuffer-based virtual keyboard pops up when the session has no controlling terminal. |
| 11:57.04 | rd_ | alt f1 open will help page on xfce tho :D |
| 11:57.04 | LuitvD | lately I read about something and it mentioned CTRL + ALT + Backspace :) |
| 11:57.04 | xkr47 | alt-f1 opens a specific file in emacs in my setup :) |
| 11:57.08 | LuitvD | that very nice one |
| 11:57.12 | LuitvD | that was a * |
| 11:58.12 | LuitvD | i read: "use CTRL + Alt + Backspace to restart your X server" |
| 11:58.20 | LuitvD | and thought for a moment |
| 11:58.23 | LuitvD | and tried XD |
| 11:58.56 | LuitvD | and thought "ugh, stupid ... oh well... it does work ..." |
| 11:59.01 | xkr47 | :) |
| 11:59.29 | LuitvD | I'm very stupid with those things :P |
| 11:59.38 | Elrond | counter |
| 11:59.38 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 3 days 00:00:21 (3.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 3 days (31.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 3 days (215.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (267) |
| 11:59.41 | LuitvD | :) |
| 11:59.44 | LuitvD | 21 secs |
| 11:59.47 | LuitvD | nice aim |
| 11:59.48 | LuitvD | :P |
| 11:59.51 | Morgaine | Hi El ;-) |
| 11:59.53 | rd_ | forget about the counter |
| 11:59.58 | LuitvD | counter |
| 11:59.58 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 3 days 00:00:01 (3.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 3 days (31.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 3 days (215.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (268) |
| 11:59.59 | LuitvD | :) |
| 12:00.00 | thresh | counter |
| 12:00.00 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 2 days 23:59:59 (3.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 2 days (31.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 2 days (215.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (269) |
| 12:00.02 | thresh | :D |
| 12:00.02 | LuitvD | wohoo |
| 12:00.09 | LuitvD | 3 days |
| 12:00.14 | *** join/#openmoko srikantux_ (n=sri@59.96.42.192) |
| 12:00.14 | Elrond | Huh, 3 days? Hmm. |
| 12:00.18 | rd_ | haha |
| 12:00.18 | LuitvD | heheheh |
| 12:00.50 | Morgaine | I vote that the counter be removed until the situation clears up. ;-) |
| 12:00.54 | Elrond | 2 hours ago, those 3 days have not been in the counter. |
| 12:00.55 | LuitvD | hahahah |
| 12:01.03 | LuitvD | Elrond: i know |
| 12:01.06 | LuitvD | but now it is :P |
| 12:01.40 | xkr47 | Morgaine, second that |
| 12:01.48 | LuitvD | oeh, the counter does know february has 28 days :P |
| 12:01.49 | Elrond | Morgaine - I showed the om.com/press/ pics to my mum. She loved it. ;) |
| 12:01.51 | xkr47 | or it could send a private message |
| 12:01.55 | xkr47 | no wait, no |
| 12:02.00 | LuitvD | (a month, 2 days (31 days)) |
| 12:02.07 | Morgaine | Elrond: Oh! That's encouraging ;-) |
| 12:03.23 | LuitvD | xkr47: or just accept the 'counter' command in private messages |
| 12:03.30 | LuitvD | like /msg aloril counter |
| 12:03.39 | Elrond | So except for the few buttons, I also like it as a affordable toy. :) |
| 12:03.50 | xkr47 | LuitvD, yeah |
| 12:04.00 | Elrond | LuitvD - aloril accepts "msg counter" I hear. |
| 12:04.07 | LuitvD | it does |
| 12:04.08 | xkr47 | Elrond, yeah we need to have LEGO connectivity also :) |
| 12:04.19 | jannu | imho the main problem with the neo1973 hardware is that the form factor is sort of in between two device classes |
| 12:04.19 | xkr47 | Elrond, connect the LEGO cam to it etc ;) |
| 12:04.22 | LuitvD | but it still accepts channel messages |
| 12:04.27 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@213.23.202.22) |
| 12:04.37 | aloril | yes, currently needs to be registered, looking for what I need to do so unregistered can /msg too... |
| 12:04.51 | jannu | that is, it's not quite small enough to be used comfortably with one hand |
| 12:05.04 | Morgaine | Elrond: oh, I can justify anything at all on the basis of "Toy" ... but Neo1 actually pays for itself here just as a Synergy switcher ;-) |
| 12:05.08 | Elrond | aloril - There's a switch. Try "/msg nickserv help" |
| 12:05.35 | jannu | but then again, it could be a bit bigger and still comfortable to hold in one hand |
| 12:05.47 | Morgaine | jannu: lol |
| 12:06.55 | jannu | so it's somewhere in between a mobile phone and a pda/web tablet/iphone |
| 12:07.32 | Elrond | Hmmm, that sounds like I could love it too. ;) |
| 12:07.47 | jannu | so people who want a comfortably mobile phone won't buy it, because its too big |
| 12:08.02 | aloril | Elrond: thanks, now unregistered accepted |
| 12:08.09 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 12:08.18 | jannu | and people who want a pda/internet tablet won't buy it because the screen is too small |
| 12:08.23 | robtaylor | jannu: have you tried holding one? |
| 12:08.31 | Morgaine | Well, I have no time for fashion victims. The vast majority of "cool" phones today are actually unusably small. |
| 12:08.36 | aloril | Elrond: also I will make counter much shorter, hopefully < 80 characters (and make "counter?" to be "answer newbie" -'button') |
| 12:08.46 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B9CD3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:08.59 | robtaylor | jannu: the form factor is actually pretty good. you can thumb the display comfortably with one hand |
| 12:09.07 | Elrond | aloril - :-) |
| 12:09.17 | Elrond | aloril - Where's that 3 day info from? |
| 12:09.21 | jannu | robtaylor: no. I haven't, but from previous experience i can say that anything wider than 50mm is too big |
| 12:09.52 | robtaylor | jannu: well, i have small-medium sized hands, and it really is comfortable to use one-handed |
| 12:10.27 | Morgaine | jannu: a Palm is 80mm wide, and it is most definitely not too big. 5 million sales say so. |
| 12:10.46 | jannu | robtaylor: i suppose it depends on what you're used to |
| 12:11.04 | jannu | Morgaine: afaik a palm is used with a stylus |
| 12:11.05 | robtaylor | jannu: *shrug* i'm used to nokia series 40 phones |
| 12:11.36 | aloril | Elrond: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html |
| 12:11.38 | jannu | Morgaine: so it's not _used_ with just one hand |
| 12:12.14 | aloril | says within 3 days for source (rest of message needs fixing, later..) |
| 12:12.20 | jannu | robtaylor: me too. so maybe it's not that bad |
| 12:12.26 | Morgaine | jannu: is that an argument for non-discrimination against the disabled? Because most people have 2 hands. |
| 12:12.38 | robtaylor | jannu: yeah, you'll be pleasantly suprised.. |
| 12:12.54 | jannu | Morgaine: yes, but most people don't use their phone with 2 hands |
| 12:13.03 | jannu | Morgaine: for a reason |
| 12:13.09 | Morgaine | jannu: so most people are nuts ;-) |
| 12:13.11 | hrw | jannu: thumb is enough |
| 12:13.55 | jannu | hrw: yes, exactly. hold in one hand and use with the same thumb |
| 12:14.17 | Morgaine | Horses for courses. I believe in supporting the needs of people with one thumb as their only digit too ... but it should not dictate the design of a geek phone. |
| 12:15.03 | robtaylor | counter |
| 12:15.04 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 2 days 23:44:56 (2.990 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 2 days (30.990 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 2 days (214.990 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (270) |
| 12:15.12 | jannu | Morgaine: yes. maybe not a geek phone, but I'm sort of guessing that FIC would like to sell the hardware to normal people as well |
| 12:15.29 | aloril | robtaylor: I have yet not fixed it (just for source) |
| 12:16.49 | jannu | Morgaine: besides, even geeks deserve usable devices |
| 12:16.49 | robtaylor | aloril: ah :) |
| 12:16.49 | noidd | counter :- |
| 12:16.49 | noidd | :-P |
| 12:16.49 | noidd | counter |
| 12:16.50 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 2 days 23:43:51 (2.989 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 2 days (30.989 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 2 days (214.989 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (271) |
| 12:17.07 | Morgaine | jannu: there is some discussion about the audience actually. We were talking about it earlier, the fact that it's falling between two stools, designed as an open phone for techs but yet apparently with a Mom+Dad phase 2 ... there's a conflict of audience there. |
| 12:17.41 | jannu | Morgaine: yep. that's what it looks like |
| 12:18.00 | Eblis | aloril: aren't the phones schedules for the end of the month and not in 3 days ? |
| 12:18.14 | Morgaine | jannu: yes, even geeks deserve usable devices, rather than microscopic ones designed for amputees with a thumb as their only digit and no second hand. |
| 12:18.24 | aloril | Eblis: yes, just haven't yet fixed it all yet (new one will be much shorter) |
| 12:18.56 | jannu | Morgaine: well, i was mainly thinking about shaving a few mm off of the width and length of the phone |
| 12:18.57 | noidd | 7% yield must really suck. I can't imagine the frustration. |
| 12:19.05 | noidd | I wonder what a normal yield on a production run is. |
| 12:19.13 | Morgaine | We need a new label --- "thumbphone". |
| 12:19.29 | jannu | Morgaine: and replacing the screen with a 3'' widescreen one |
| 12:19.34 | aloril | late march ... hmm to be safe: 31 (counter not yet updated) |
| 12:20.02 | Eblis | late march for phones for anybody ? |
| 12:20.56 | Morgaine | 7% yield implies bad design, because you always design for decent yield, it's possibly the single most important design constraint. |
| 12:20.57 | jannu | Morgaine: the thing is that form factors should be dictated first and foremost by human dimensions |
| 12:21.32 | aloril | Eblis: see http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html |
| 12:21.34 | Morgaine | jannu: indeed, and also based on a straw poll of the number of digits that most people have. |
| 12:21.59 | aloril | Eblis: that mail has details for new schedule (but its more vague than previous one ;-) |
| 12:22.52 | so_solid_moo | it is slightly sad that bluetooth has created many of these problems. :/ |
| 12:22.57 | jannu | Morgaine: well, I'd like to see you holding the phone in one hand and using the touch screen with e.g. the index or ring finger of the same hand |
| 12:23.21 | Morgaine | jannu: most people have two hands |
| 12:23.24 | Elrond | What's an "FPC"? |
| 12:23.49 | koen | Fic Powah Cable? |
| 12:23.51 | jannu | Morgaine: yes, but most people also tend to have things to do, which means that the other hand isn't always free |
| 12:24.08 | Eblis | aloril: i read the email ... i was unsure what the 'late march' was for |
| 12:24.17 | Eblis | i thought maybe you set it for phase0 phones :) |
| 12:24.18 | jannu | Morgaine: which means that for most people comfotable usage with one hand is a must |
| 12:24.54 | Morgaine | jannu: I have nothing against thumbphones. But it's a fashion victim's phone, primarily. |
| 12:25.04 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 12:25.13 | buz | looking at nokia e90 and the toshiba thingy neo looks so 2005 |
| 12:25.14 | *** join/#openmoko l3010o (n=leo@n219079066049.netvigator.com) |
| 12:25.43 | Morgaine | jannu: one-handed operation is most definitely not a must. In fact, it's patently idiotic, except for a tiny fraction of fashion victims. |
| 12:25.46 | Elrond | I don't care for trendy stuff. It has to be usable. |
| 12:26.12 | jannu | Morgaine: what? you mean that carrying a suitcase and using a phone at the same time is patently idiotic? |
| 12:26.42 | Elrond | jannu - It's forbidden by law. ;o) |
| 12:26.46 | robtaylor | Morgaine: umm, what country do you live in?! |
| 12:26.57 | jannu | Morgaine: or carrying groceries and using a phone? or opening a door and using a phone? |
| 12:27.32 | robtaylor | only really l33t people text with two hands =) |
| 12:28.00 | Morgaine | jannu: trying to operate your whole phone with just one thumb is the idiotic bit. There are plenty of other ways, and even one-button operation for answering is fine. But full operation of a complex device using just one thumb is really for idiots who shouldn't be loose on the street. |
| 12:28.29 | robtaylor | Morgaine: i think everyone disagrees with you. |
| 12:28.32 | jannu | Morgaine: you're kidding right? |
| 12:28.42 | robtaylor | yeah, everyone disagrees with you |
| 12:28.45 | Elrond | I don't disagree with Morgaine |
| 12:28.47 | Eblis | :)) |
| 12:29.03 | Elrond | I just usually can't use both my hands in the bus for my phone. |
| 12:29.04 | jannu | Morgaine: besides complexity should only be dictated by what you do |
| 12:29.19 | jannu | Morgaine: a mobile phone is not a complex device |
| 12:29.31 | Elrond | But a large touchscreen asks for holding the phone in one hand and using the pointing-fingerr to operate the thing. |
| 12:29.58 | Elrond | jannu - The Neo {is/will be} a complex device. |
| 12:30.00 | Eblis | jannu: recent phones have become more and more complex :) |
| 12:30.22 | jannu | Morgaine: and by mobile phone i don't mean the device as a whole, i mean the use case of voice and text messaging |
| 12:30.46 | Elrond | jannu - Ahhh. |
| 12:31.08 | Elrond | jannu - s/text messaging/reading sms/ |
| 12:31.34 | Morgaine | I think the one-thumb brigade is purposely misinterpreting me. I didn't say that you shouldn't be able to use a phone with just one digit, or even none -- eg. to answer an incoming call, or to place a call to a predefined place or two. But to constrain a whole PIM/PDA system to the needs of 1-thumbed people is utterly ridiculous. |
| 12:31.35 | jannu | Elrond: yes. unfortunately for now |
| 12:32.34 | jannu | Morgaine: no, of course design that constrains into one-handed usage sucks. i agree with you on that |
| 12:32.57 | Morgaine | By all means make it partially usable in specific situations using a minimalist interface. But not base your entire device UI strategy on that! |
| 12:33.16 | Elrond | Yep! |
| 12:33.26 | CM | As long as I can answer and call with one hand I'm happy |
| 12:34.12 | Elrond | Answering should not be ambigous with rejecting. ;o) |
| 12:34.24 | Elrond | (I once rejected a call, because I mixed up left and right ;o) ) |
| 12:34.32 | Morgaine | CM: aye, that's commonsense ... crumbs, even I answer calls while walking down the street. But that's quite different to designing a whole UI around 1 thumb, hehe. |
| 12:34.38 | jannu | imho supporting both one-handed and two-handed usage is precisely where touchscreen input will be most useful |
| 12:34.53 | CM | Morgaine: Totally agree :) |
| 12:35.24 | jannu | a phone could be designed so that it can comfortably be used with one hand in portrait position and with two hands in landscape position |
| 12:35.46 | *** join/#openmoko apardo_ (n=apardo@87.217.144.229) |
| 12:36.04 | Elrond | Which reminds me: Does Xorg support rotating? |
| 12:36.07 | robtaylor | Morgaine: oh, in that sense, i agree |
| 12:36.28 | jannu | e.g. text messaging in portrait position would be done with a traditional-like 12-button keypad |
| 12:36.52 | jannu | and in portrait position with a pda-like qwerty-keyboard |
| 12:36.54 | robtaylor | Morgaine: your inital staments were that 'one-handed operation is most definitely not a must. In fact, it's patently idiotic, except for a tiny fraction of fashion victims."' |
| 12:37.12 | robtaylor | Morgaine: tht i certainly don't agree =) |
| 12:37.33 | hrw | Elrond: yes |
| 12:37.49 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r (n=Rac0r@p5081EFDD.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:38.03 | *** join/#openmoko Virtuall (n=virtuall@who.is.virtuall.info) |
| 12:38.07 | robtaylor | Morgaine: though, i have to admit, that fact i can input an appointment on my nokia with onehand is still pretty useful |
| 12:38.41 | Morgaine | robtaylor: fair enough, I wasn't specific enough. I meant "full device operation using only 1 thumb", ie. constraining the capabilities of the device by mandating 1-thumb operation, that would be madness. |
| 12:38.54 | robtaylor | Morgaine: oh yeah |
| 12:39.10 | robtaylor | Morgaine: as with all UI design, the 1st thing to do is look at usecases |
| 12:39.32 | robtaylor | Morgaine: things you're likely to have to do at unexpected moments should probably be thumbable |
| 12:39.57 | jannu | robtaylor: I'd say everything has to be thumbable |
| 12:40.07 | Morgaine | robtaylor: hehe, well thing being FOSS, I think it might work differently: you work towards the use-case where you feel your personal itch ;-)) |
| 12:40.20 | Morgaine | s/thing/this/ |
| 12:40.24 | jannu | robtaylor: but some things can be designed also for stylus and multi-finger usage |
| 12:41.04 | robtaylor | Morgaine: well, it all depends on who does what. see gnome HIG for an example |
| 12:41.26 | jannu | imho the method used on the n800 is a step in the right direction |
| 12:41.39 | Elrond | hrw - Good. I hope to like the Neo i landscape mode. :) |
| 12:42.18 | robtaylor | jannu: well, for example, you wont want to have spreadsheet editing thumbable |
| 12:42.33 | robtaylor | jannu: that would make for a very unusable ui |
| 12:42.44 | jannu | robtaylor: depends on screen size |
| 12:42.57 | jannu | robtaylor: but yes, that would be pretty bad |
| 12:43.15 | jannu | robtaylor: although, not necessarily. |
| 12:43.18 | Morgaine | jannu: only depends on screen size if you can grow your thumb at will ;-))) |
| 12:44.03 | jannu | if the ui was designed so that clicking a cell would open up a full screen thumb keyboard |
| 12:44.07 | robtaylor | jannu: erll, you'd have to scale things up so much to be thumbable, that it'd be useless on a size of screen that's thumbable |
| 12:44.47 | robtaylor | jannu: well, on the 770/N800, if you click with a thumb, you get a thumbboard |
| 12:44.56 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 12:44.59 | robtaylor | if you click with a sylus, a keyboard |
| 12:45.02 | jannu | robtaylor: yes, you'd see very few cells at a time |
| 12:45.09 | robtaylor | which is the right idea, imo |
| 12:45.16 | jannu | robtaylor: exactly |
| 12:45.25 | Morgaine | robtaylor: that's cool. How does it detect area of contact? |
| 12:46.06 | jannu | robtaylor: also, selecting small areas with a thumb can be made a lot easier with visual aids |
| 12:46.47 | jannu | robtaylor: e.g. when you put your funger on a cell, the ui would open a popup next to your finger showing the contents of that cell |
| 12:47.28 | jannu | robtaylor: so if it's not the cell you actually want, you could drag your finger until you get the right cell |
| 12:47.47 | Morgaine | jannu: you edit spreadsheets while walking down streets and carrying a bag in the other hand? |
| 12:47.53 | jannu | robtaylor: and then select it by releasing your finger |
| 12:48.15 | jannu | Morgaine: no. actually i don't edit spreadsheets at all |
| 12:48.38 | jannu | Morgaine: but the same method can be used e.g. for selecting input fields in websites |
| 12:49.35 | robtaylor | Morgaine: i think its a 7-wire resistive |
| 12:49.38 | Morgaine | jannu: well, it's a special use-case to do complex things with pinhole access. |
| 12:50.35 | jannu | Morgaine: well, not really, because the same visual pop-up thing is more or less a must have for on-screen thumb keyboards as well |
| 12:51.29 | Morgaine | jannu: I agree that it's the same problem. But you need to stop considering the whole OM system through the needs of your thumb. |
| 12:51.40 | jannu | Morgaine: plus using a stylus with a mobile phone is a major no-no for the vast majority of people out there |
| 12:52.08 | jannu | Morgaine: while using websites with input fields on a mobile phone isn't |
| 12:52.46 | jannu | Morgaine: for example, i never ever use the stylus on the nokia n800 |
| 12:53.00 | Morgaine | jannu: the majority of people out there don't buy a geek phone, which naturally provides an extremely large amount of complex functionality. Trying to fit it all into the needs of 1-thumbed operation is not sensible. |
| 12:55.13 | jannu | Morgaine: i'm not saying that every single application has to be completely usable with one thumb. take sketching for example |
| 12:56.01 | jannu | Morgaine: but with good design the vast majority of functions can be made comfortable to use with one hand |
| 12:56.21 | Morgaine | I'm just looking for balance, and don't want to compromise Neo/OM functionality by operating through a 1-thumb pinhole interface. That's all. The more facilities that can be then mapped to 1-thumb, the better. But it's not the primary req in a tech phone --- it's tech functionality. |
| 12:57.19 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-72-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 12:57.34 | Morgaine | A general mapping arrangement would be good. |
| 12:57.45 | aloril | counter |
| 12:57.45 | aloril | source: 3 days 23:02:14 (3.960 days); P0: 16.960; P1: 47.960; P2: 230.960 (272) |
| 12:57.55 | aloril | (longer version has a bug, I'll update that later) |
| 12:57.55 | Morgaine | !!!! |
| 12:58.09 | Morgaine | Gratz aloril --- that's real nice compression :-) |
| 12:58.44 | aloril | Morgaine: thanks, not very useful for answering newbies though ;-) |
| 12:58.49 | Morgaine | True |
| 12:58.53 | aloril | s/thanks/welcome/ |
| 12:59.01 | Elrond | aloril - What's the 272? |
| 12:59.07 | aloril | counter counter ;-) |
| 12:59.37 | Elrond | tihi. |
| 13:01.14 | jannu | also, if you design with a stylus in mind, the phone needs a stylus holder |
| 13:01.36 | Morgaine | jannu: just in case it sounded like I'm anti 1-thumb operation, I'm not --- I'll be using it myself too, extensively. I just don't want Neo UI to be hardwired to that as a constraint. 1-thumb is just an I/O mapping ... others might want to use a voice interface, for example. |
| 13:02.04 | jannu | Morgaine: yes, of course. |
| 13:02.18 | jannu | Morgaine: I've been mainly thinking about tactile input |
| 13:02.34 | jannu | Morgaine: voice would be a whole other story |
| 13:02.42 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) |
| 13:03.03 | Elrond | Morgaine - I hope for landscape + stylus. :) |
| 13:03.23 | *** join/#openmoko chrustinho (n=christop@p57B03D9B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:04.01 | Morgaine | A throat mike is very unobstrusive, and you can subvocalize a very large range of inputs. |
| 13:04.01 | jannu | for tactile input i see four different usage patterns: one thumb, two thumbs, one hand and one stylus |
| 13:04.07 | *** join/#openmoko Ryushin (i=proxy@windwalker.openinnovations.com) |
| 13:04.34 | jannu | plus of course one thumb + one hand and one thumb + one stylus |
| 13:04.43 | LuitvD | what would I have to do to get a Phase 0 phone? :P |
| 13:05.00 | LuitvD | be really helpful? |
| 13:05.03 | XorA | LuitvD: build tardis |
| 13:05.04 | SpeedEvil | I see as a possible interesting one, one thumb on a slider, across the phone, and a finger curled round to tap to select it. |
| 13:05.11 | hrw | LuitvD: you are late |
| 13:05.28 | LuitvD | lol, somehow I knew that... |
| 13:05.32 | LuitvD | :P |
| 13:05.39 | Morgaine | Well, Unix is just an I/O multiplexer. ;-) So, many different types of input 'R'Us. ;-) |
| 13:05.50 | SpeedEvil | Or offer large amounts of money. |
| 13:06.07 | *** join/#openmoko morricone (i=foobar@dslb-084-057-178-084.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:06.09 | jannu | SpeedEvil: you mean a hardware slider on the side? |
| 13:06.11 | SpeedEvil | I daresay that there are a few extras that might be had for $2K. |
| 13:06.12 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 13:06.22 | morricone | counter |
| 13:06.22 | aloril | source: 3 days 22:53:37 (3.954 days); P0: 16.954; P1: 47.954; P2: 230.954 (273) |
| 13:06.32 | SpeedEvil | I mean use the screen as a slider with the thumb - on the bottom of the screen. |
| 13:06.45 | SpeedEvil | Then tap somewhere else on screen, to select position. |
| 13:06.46 | jannu | SpeedEvil: oh a scrollbar-thingie |
| 13:06.52 | SpeedEvil | with another finger |
| 13:06.57 | SpeedEvil | without moving thumb. |
| 13:07.12 | SpeedEvil | No - this isn't multitouch, it's faking it though. |
| 13:07.46 | jannu | SpeedEvil: I'm actually working on a mock-up of something like that |
| 13:08.24 | jannu | SpeedEvil: but instead of a traditional scrollbar, i thought of using a scroll ribbon |
| 13:08.29 | greghunt | i find the side scroll wheel one of the most useful things on my phone :/ |
| 13:08.32 | SpeedEvil | Yeah trying to remove thumb, and place it down in same place to click would be annoying. |
| 13:08.49 | SpeedEvil | I'd really like a stick or two on the neo. |
| 13:09.54 | jannu | SpeedEvil: exactly. plus scrollbars don't really work that well with small screens |
| 13:10.07 | *** part/#openmoko srikantux_ (n=sri@59.96.42.192) |
| 13:10.27 | SpeedEvil | I'd really like the touch area to extend outside the LCD. |
| 13:11.11 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: what for? :S |
| 13:11.21 | greghunt | i think whoever designs it ultimately needs to keep a tight reign on the features, otherwise you'll have a too many cooks syndrome |
| 13:11.26 | koen | LuitvD: soft keys |
| 13:11.27 | SpeedEvil | so that you don't cover the screen with fingers. |
| 13:11.38 | SpeedEvil | I really want some more buttons I suppose. |
| 13:12.08 | Morgaine | Agree. |
| 13:12.11 | SpeedEvil | I suppose that in 3 months time - or so, someone is going to have to make input decisions that'll piss people off. |
| 13:12.31 | koen | users are always pissed off |
| 13:12.31 | Stephmw | SpeedEvil: depending on where the external hardware port is, I could see a slimline clipon that works similarly to the p910 keyboard |
| 13:12.37 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 13:12.45 | SpeedEvil | I mean developers. |
| 13:12.49 | koen | most of the times because they don't read instructions |
| 13:13.11 | SpeedEvil | As in "no, whistle-alphabet won't be a primary input method' |
| 13:13.24 | LuitvD | heheheh |
| 13:13.30 | LuitvD | that'd be really nice though |
| 13:13.43 | SpeedEvil | Because at some point we've got to drag all of the apps to be released together in a sane UI. |
| 13:13.48 | SpeedEvil | Core apps at least. |
| 13:13.53 | LuitvD | just wistle at your phone, and it automatically dials |
| 13:14.20 | jannu | imho hardware buttons are great as long as they don't mean that the screen is smaller or that phone is too big |
| 13:14.22 | SpeedEvil | I mean specifying required functionality in all programs. |
| 13:14.36 | XorA | shourt rm -rf at your phone and it will nicely execute :-) |
| 13:14.51 | jannu | e.g. a number keypad is a definite no-no |
| 13:14.55 | SpeedEvil | You are going to have to limit input modes in some cases. As they don't fit the modality of the program. |
| 13:15.42 | SpeedEvil | But a program supporting only its own input method shouldn't get shipped. |
| 13:15.48 | SpeedEvil | Unless it's really special. |
| 13:15.54 | Morgaine | Wolf-whistle and it dials your GF |
| 13:16.06 | greghunt | i like the wheel as it allows for two handed usage, number pads are nice for input, unless you can make screen input quick and easy |
| 13:16.09 | jannu | but something hardware buttons on the side for volume up + down and play/pause + next song would be really nice |
| 13:16.10 | SpeedEvil | I was meaning more specific note = specific letter. |
| 13:16.16 | SpeedEvil | Or number. |
| 13:16.25 | SpeedEvil | As that makes 'speech recognition' trivial. |
| 13:16.35 | SpeedEvil | For those with perfect pitch at least. |
| 13:16.36 | greghunt | input modes should just be an input dvice, so that it works universally |
| 13:16.57 | XorA | whistle DTFM to dial |
| 13:17.11 | SpeedEvil | That's physically impossible for humans AIUI. |
| 13:17.16 | greghunt | scrap the whistling, beatboxing |
| 13:17.48 | leventhal | AIUI? |
| 13:17.49 | jannu | greghunt: i'd say the touchscreen will need some kind of tactile feedback in order to really replace keypads |
| 13:17.50 | SpeedEvil | I'm unsure on how much input method separation makes sense. |
| 13:17.55 | SpeedEvil | As I Uderstand It. |
| 13:18.00 | leventhal | ah.. |
| 13:18.07 | SpeedEvil | Yes, of course you need it to some degree. |
| 13:18.08 | leventhal | Well, there was a guy who could pulse dial by whistling |
| 13:18.14 | Morgaine | Oh, any mention of the power-related controls yet? Eg. goes into standby when one of the buttons is held down for a few secs, or what? |
| 13:18.51 | jannu | one thing I'd definitely want is a colour coded click-wheel for selecting the profile |
| 13:18.52 | SpeedEvil | But given that most of the app methods will need large screen areas, it may make sense to be able to specify preferred methods. |
| 13:19.09 | SpeedEvil | s/app/input/ |
| 13:19.18 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 13:19.58 | SpeedEvil | I would really like camera + IR illuminator. |
| 13:19.58 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: yep. And there will be a wide range of preferences there, as we see from this chat ;-) |
| 13:20.07 | greghunt | perv ;p |
| 13:20.08 | SpeedEvil | For trying to do dasher. |
| 13:20.13 | *** join/#openmoko ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) |
| 13:20.14 | SpeedEvil | With eye-tracking. |
| 13:20.16 | jannu | something like green=online/available, red=do-not-disturb, white=available, but silent, grey: do-not-disturb, silent and black=offline |
| 13:20.46 | greghunt | i find dasher rather slow |
| 13:20.57 | SpeedEvil | I too - it's interesting though. |
| 13:21.46 | SpeedEvil | I've only played with the java version. |
| 13:21.55 | SpeedEvil | I need to update my system. |
| 13:22.00 | SpeedEvil | GTK 1.2.0 |
| 13:22.25 | Morgaine | Remember it learns, so once it knows your typical input, it gets a lot faster, and you can usually types whole words with a single stroke |
| 13:23.06 | SpeedEvil | That's good - as I've got 10M of training text to feed it. |
| 13:23.13 | Morgaine | Hehe |
| 13:23.44 | *** join/#openmoko loft306 (n=^_^@tuxhacker/pdpc.supporter.sustaining.loft306) |
| 13:24.17 | SpeedEvil | For example - on the required input methods. They will presumably cover up different areas of the screen. |
| 13:24.36 | SpeedEvil | It would be nice if the app was sort-of-functional even with that bit of the screen covered. |
| 13:24.53 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 13:25.21 | SpeedEvil | soft keyboards suck - there is no physical response to where you've put your finger. |
| 13:25.49 | SpeedEvil | It wasn't nice. |
| 13:26.12 | Morgaine | Did that laser-projected virtual keyboard (a la Tenchi Muyo) actually work usefully? |
| 13:26.16 | SpeedEvil | (Z80 based computer, smaller than a page of A4, with an 80? key membrane keyboard. |
| 13:26.26 | jannu | SpeedEvil: exactly. without some sort of tactile feedback touchscreens will always suck |
| 13:26.27 | SpeedEvil | _no_ feeling. |
| 13:26.38 | SpeedEvil | Just flat plate. |
| 13:26.45 | greghunt | i liked my zx spectrum |
| 13:26.56 | SpeedEvil | The spectrum was a different animal. |
| 13:26.56 | greghunt | though i was about 7 at the time |
| 13:27.08 | SpeedEvil | It had actual keys, that you could press down. |
| 13:27.19 | SpeedEvil | The ZX81 simply had the membrane. |
| 13:27.31 | jannu | it can be alleviated a bit with the type of visual feedback i described earlier |
| 13:27.31 | greghunt | ah i think i know what you mean |
| 13:27.45 | Morgaine | Just didn't like the rubber keys on speccie, felt like they were covered in marmalade. |
| 13:27.45 | jannu | so you actually know what key you are pressing |
| 13:28.01 | SpeedEvil | the 'key' did have a little give, if you pressed it in the centre, but just rubbing your fingers over it gave no indication. |
| 13:28.28 | SpeedEvil | And the travel was 0.5mm. |
| 13:28.54 | SpeedEvil | I'm not sure visual feedback helps at all. |
| 13:29.11 | jannu | well it does help quite a bit |
| 13:29.17 | SpeedEvil | A big reaso I'm moderately accurate at typing is feeling the edge of the keys while typing. |
| 13:29.28 | *** join/#openmoko mitcheloc (n=mitchelo@titaniumsoft.net) |
| 13:29.39 | leventhal | Good reaso. |
| 13:29.48 | greghunt | if the screen is big enough two thumbed input might be usable, don't apple say they have some error predictor thing on their iphone? |
| 13:29.50 | SpeedEvil | And correcting finger-finger if I get near the edge of the keys rather than the centre. |
| 13:29.51 | jannu | because without it you hve absolutely no idea whether what key you pressed or whether the keypress was registered at all |
| 13:29.58 | Morgaine | http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/8193/ |
| 13:30.02 | mitcheloc | did anyone in here see the neonode n2? i'm curious what the thoughts are regarding it |
| 13:30.19 | mitcheloc | it seems competitive to the moko phone |
| 13:30.28 | jannu | but visual feedback alone is not enough |
| 13:30.35 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 13:30.50 | Morgaine | mitcheloc: "competitive" ... you mean it's just as open? |
| 13:31.03 | mitcheloc | Morgaine: from the press release, it seems that way, yes |
| 13:31.31 | mitcheloc | Morgaine: check it out on engadget, it's like the second article |
| 13:31.46 | jannu | Morgaine: quote from the site: "the future has arrived" |
| 13:32.00 | jannu | Morgaine: if that's the future, I want to stay in the past |
| 13:32.15 | Morgaine | OMG, a thumbphone |
| 13:32.33 | mitcheloc | sarcasm? |
| 13:32.38 | Morgaine | Yep ;-) |
| 13:33.15 | mitcheloc | now i feel silly, i can't find where it said it was poen |
| 13:33.34 | mitcheloc | * open, must have gotten mixed up, there are like 15 other phones that engadget posted about already today |
| 13:33.52 | mitcheloc | still thumbsized shouldn't be a big deal unless your concern is web browsing? |
| 13:34.07 | jannu | "Neonode N2 is also an open platform, which means that you can download all the additional applications and features you want your device to have." |
| 13:34.11 | hads | "Neonode N2 is also an open platform, which means that you can download all the additional applications and features you want your device to have" - doesn't sound very open |
| 13:34.18 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 13:34.30 | mitcheloc | ah, there it is, that is it, how is that not open hads? |
| 13:34.44 | Morgaine | mitcheloc: my concern is using the 1000 packages in OE, when all I'm allowed to use is my thumb ;-) |
| 13:34.48 | ajturner | open in the sense you can install your own applications - compared with many phones that don't allow you to run 'unsigned' apps |
| 13:35.12 | jannu | mitcheloc: the base system isn't likely to be modifiable, which means that new functionality can't be integrated properly |
| 13:35.13 | hads | It sounds like one of those other definitions of open :) |
| 13:35.15 | SpeedEvil | How the hell can you patent optical touchscreens. |
| 13:35.25 | SpeedEvil | They have been around forever. |
| 13:39.42 | XorA | case mod, hack a usb mouse rollerball into back of neo1973 |
| 13:39.42 | aloril | 2 versions (and accidentally added extra day for source, removed): |
| 13:39.42 | aloril | counter |
| 13:39.42 | aloril | source: 2 days 22:23:45 (2.933 days); P0: 16.933; P1: 47.933; P2: 230.933 (see counter?) (274) |
| 13:39.42 | aloril | counter? |
| 13:39.43 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12, but actual date hopefully is earlier (maybe even several days)): 2 days 22:23:42 (2.933 days) for source for *all* developers (2007-02-14); 2 weeks, 2 days (16.933 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, 2 weeks, 2 days (47.933 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days (230.933 days) for mass market (200 |
| 13:39.43 | aloril | (second version for answering newbies) |
| 13:39.44 | hads | lengthy :) |
| 13:39.45 | aloril | yeah, or you can talk for few lines to explain same (might still need it though, see earlier today for sureshkumar) |
| 13:41.34 | mitcheloc | i just don't like the moko phone look, kind of funky =/ |
| 13:41.42 | *** join/#openmoko mako_ (n=mako@bork.hampshire.edu) |
| 13:43.15 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 13:43.20 | SpeedEvil | I like the look of it. |
| 13:43.38 | mitcheloc | meh! i'd totally buy one, just don't like the styling, i'm shallow |
| 13:43.38 | SpeedEvil | I don't like the lack of buttons - even though they might make it look more cluttered. |
| 13:44.13 | mitcheloc | now the n800 slightly modded would make a sweet sweet phone |
| 13:44.30 | SpeedEvil | I'd like the motorola A1200 - fully open. |
| 13:45.02 | hads | Patience is a virtue :) |
| 13:46.39 | mitcheloc | <-- will be dead first |
| 13:51.23 | *** join/#openmoko vics (n=vics@217.21.35.33) |
| 13:52.21 | *** join/#openmoko dw_swe (n=dw@h-215-34.A162.cust.bahnhof.se) |
| 13:53.37 | Morgaine | Well, Neo1 doesn't have any competition atm since its raison d'etre is full openness, so there isn't much point complaining about its physical design. It will become an issue once there is real competition though. |
| 13:54.36 | jannu | Morgaine: yes, but in the real world openness in and of itself doesn't sell |
| 13:54.58 | SpeedEvil | Of course there is point. If the design makes me not buy, so I won't develop much for it... |
| 13:55.06 | jannu | Morgaine: and the hardware has to sell, or there won't be a v2 |
| 13:55.25 | Morgaine | jannu: doesn't matter. There are a billion phones out there for people who aren't interested in openness, and Neo doesn't try to compete with them. |
| 13:55.43 | SpeedEvil | Of course it does. |
| 13:56.03 | SpeedEvil | If the hardware sucks, the you won't get as many devs. |
| 13:56.03 | Morgaine | jannu: that is a matter of some debate. Another school of thought is that the cost of h/w dev is covered by the same h/w being sold in WinMobile market. |
| 13:56.30 | Morgaine | We won't know, unless Sean feels like telling us about FIC's marketting angle.. |
| 13:57.35 | jannu | Morgaine: I thought the whole point of openmoko is that through openness one can create features and functionality which appeals to everyone |
| 13:57.35 | jannu | Morgaine: or maybe not the whole point |
| 13:57.46 | SpeedEvil | Software can't mask hardware that people don't like though. |
| 13:57.49 | Morgaine | jannu: we don't really know that. Sean's post really just stress the openness, as the reason for the project. Anything else we're reading between the lines. |
| 13:57.55 | SpeedEvil | Or not completely. |
| 13:58.37 | jannu | anyway, the whole venture needs to be profitable, or else it will just die |
| 13:58.54 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 13:59.04 | jannu | because unlike in pc world, mobile phone hardware isn't standardised |
| 13:59.19 | Morgaine | I'm *guessing* that Sean really is interested in the openness angle ... a big experiment for FIC. And if it sells to mom+dad, then that's a bonus. |
| 13:59.29 | jannu | so the platform more or less needs hardware which is designed to support it |
| 13:59.37 | SpeedEvil | If FIC go under after starting out, and someone else thinks it;'d be a nice way toi boost their phone,,. |
| 14:00.12 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yes, if someone else thinks that |
| 14:00.15 | Morgaine | FIC has 3000 employees. There is no chance of it going down ... in fact. the CEO has probably not even heard of this small project ;-) |
| 14:00.15 | SpeedEvil | go under = stop doing it - they are large otherwise. |
| 14:01.08 | jannu | SpeedEvil: but basically the platform will die without hardware support |
| 14:01.23 | SpeedEvil | Yup. |
| 14:01.39 | SpeedEvil | Well, less someone cracks a phone platform. |
| 14:02.03 | SpeedEvil | If the A1200m or some nice hardware gets opened by hackers. |
| 14:02.04 | Morgaine | Nah, Mickey's ensuring that OM will work on OpenEZX phones, and Sean is supporting that breadth of design. |
| 14:02.11 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yep. and reverse-engineers all the hardware out there |
| 14:02.17 | SpeedEvil | Then there is no need for makers support |
| 14:02.33 | SpeedEvil | reverse engineering is hard though. |
| 14:03.19 | jannu | SpeedEvil: yes, and with mobile phones you'd probably need to re-certify the thing |
| 14:03.28 | SpeedEvil | Maybe not. |
| 14:03.39 | SpeedEvil | In most, the GSM bit'll be canned. |
| 14:03.48 | Morgaine | jannu: nah, the GSM module is embedded and closed. |
| 14:03.56 | SpeedEvil | plus - yoyu're not selling em. |
| 14:04.04 | jannu | SpeedEvil: nowadays yes, but one-chip designs are becoming more common |
| 14:04.18 | SpeedEvil | It's a package for users to install. |
| 14:04.29 | SpeedEvil | one-chip makes it harder. |
| 14:04.38 | jannu | yes, considerably |
| 14:05.29 | jannu | because you need to show that the new virtualisation package can keep up with the real-time requirements |
| 14:05.44 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-72-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 14:05.49 | SpeedEvil | Or your new GSM stack. |
| 14:05.53 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 14:06.11 | Morgaine | Talking of virtualization, has anyone played with that module in OE? |
| 14:06.18 | SpeedEvil | and approvals are probably impossible without makers approval. |
| 14:06.28 | jannu | so I'd daresay that the mass-market appeal of the hardware is pretty damn important |
| 14:06.41 | jannu | SpeedEvil: and money |
| 14:08.49 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=daniel@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 14:08.54 | libervisco | Hi |
| 14:10.11 | Morgaine | sysadmins: bad remote connect-as-root bug found in Solaris, according to Slashdot. |
| 14:10.22 | libervisco | As I mentioned some time ago on the OpenMoko community list, I am launching a site about open mobiles soon and are looking for a suitable name |
| 14:10.44 | libervisco | One member of our current site proposed mokomove :) |
| 14:11.06 | libervisco | with the idea being to call all open standards and Free Software powered phones as "mokos" |
| 14:11.30 | libervisco | What do you think? Would that go well with OpenMoko and people in general? |
| 14:11.47 | libervisco | mokomove, btw, is Moko Movement :) |
| 14:12.08 | jannu | libervisco: with openmoko yes, but doesn't sound too sexy as a general name |
| 14:12.35 | jannu | libervisco: then again, I don't have a better idea |
| 14:12.39 | libervisco | you mean, to apply to other similar phones like greenphone or Nokia? |
| 14:12.42 | libervisco | hmm |
| 14:12.53 | libervisco | we've been looking for some names for weeks now :P |
| 14:13.11 | libervisco | for a while I was stuck with a name involving "Mobile2" |
| 14:13.23 | libervisco | Mobile2Community for example.. |
| 14:13.26 | jannu | libervisco: I mean that moko doesn't sound all that catchy |
| 14:13.33 | aloril | SpeedEvil: A1200m being open for hackers is still mostly open for only hackers: most buyers use what is default (otherwise Linux would have much higher usage ratio if bundling OS was illegal ;-) |
| 14:13.40 | koen | you do know that 'moko' is 'snot' in spanish, right? |
| 14:13.41 | Morgaine | libervisco: Don't really care personally about names and hype. It stands or falls by its openness and functionality, for me. |
| 14:14.05 | CM | Morgaine: That sounds like GNU/Mobile |
| 14:14.15 | Morgaine | CM: hehehe |
| 14:14.36 | libervisco | Morgaine: right, I'm just looking for a name that'd best present our site :) |
| 14:14.40 | CM | Zealots would swarm to the site.. |
| 14:14.59 | Morgaine | CM: just what we need ... ;-) |
| 14:15.02 | libervisco | which will be a discussion site and a news site on mobile devices powered by open standards and Free Software, like OpenMokos |
| 14:15.39 | koen | like http://www.freesmartphone.org/index.html ? |
| 14:16.10 | libervisco | not really |
| 14:16.23 | Morgaine | CM: that said, our entire purpose here is openness ... the project has no purpose without that. And Sean did express interest in FSF recognition of its openess, so there doesn't seem to be any tension there. |
| 14:16.26 | libervisco | this would be more oriented to general public or general geeks ;) |
| 14:16.37 | libervisco | with forums, attractive news portal and all :) |
| 14:16.40 | libervisco | web2ish |
| 14:16.58 | CM | libervisco: Basically for users, not devs |
| 14:16.59 | CM | ? |
| 14:17.03 | libervisco | yeah |
| 14:17.08 | CM | :) |
| 14:17.11 | libervisco | though all are welcome |
| 14:17.48 | Morgaine | General public site would be helpful .... a decoy. ;-))) |
| 14:18.00 | libervisco | decoy? |
| 14:18.00 | libervisco | why :D |
| 14:18.14 | libervisco | oh |
| 14:18.16 | libervisco | right :) |
| 14:18.24 | CM | Morgaine: Exactly! Just start a few forum topics like FPGA and OMG WiFi!! |
| 14:18.29 | libervisco | yeah the idea is to attract real users |
| 14:18.43 | libervisco | I mean, plain users :) |
| 14:18.49 | libervisco | not just geeks.. |
| 14:18.56 | libervisco | though geeks will probably be first :) |
| 14:19.00 | libervisco | as always |
| 14:19.24 | libervisco | but.. we're still stuck with choosing a name |
| 14:19.24 | koen | most developers dislike fora |
| 14:19.44 | libervisco | yeah |
| 14:19.52 | jannu | koen: and that's why having one for users is good |
| 14:19.59 | koen | right |
| 14:20.00 | libervisco | yep :) |
| 14:20.03 | koen | but look at the topic :) |
| 14:20.04 | hrw | jannu: thats right |
| 14:20.04 | jannu | koen: so they stay out of dev mailing lists |
| 14:20.16 | hrw | as long they does not request soft on forum only |
| 14:20.32 | hrw | look: zaurus 'users' groups forum |
| 14:20.41 | Morgaine | Horses for courses. As the dev ML shows, it's hard enough to stay on course even among techs ... it gets messy in a full public exchange, differing values and interests. |
| 14:20.52 | *** part/#openmoko mintee (n=mintee@72-165-177-90.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 14:20.58 | hrw | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:21.04 | hrw | good quote for today |
| 14:21.07 | Morgaine | hrw: hehehe |
| 14:21.08 | noidd | btw, I installed Vista on a 3.2Ghz laptop with 1G RAM and 256M of video RAM over the weekend. The "testing your machines performance" took over 13 hours. |
| 14:21.12 | noidd | sorry, mt. |
| 14:21.29 | Morgaine | Hahaha noidd |
| 14:21.35 | hrw | noidd: what is vista? :D |
| 14:22.10 | SpeedEvil | It's half of a search engine? |
| 14:22.27 | noidd | I need something with useable video editing |
| 14:22.34 | noidd | I gave up on cinelerra et all. |
| 14:22.41 | libervisco | Any other name suggestions? :) |
| 14:22.44 | jannu | noidd: a mac? |
| 14:22.50 | noidd | if you know a fairly useable video editor for Linux I'm all over it. |
| 14:22.56 | SpeedEvil | dd! |
| 14:23.06 | noidd | I don't want to buy dedicated hardware (although I came pretty close) |
| 14:23.23 | noidd | vista ultimate cost me $45 (instead of $400). |
| 14:23.31 | noidd | for $45 its worth an experiment. |
| 14:23.58 | SpeedEvil | It could just be BO, not facetious. |
| 14:24.00 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 14:24.11 | jannu | noidd: that's true. but the thing sucks so much ram that video editing on 1G is going to be a pain |
| 14:24.14 | Morgaine | Vista is a content delivery mechanism for content providers to control equipment that they do not own. |
| 14:24.20 | SpeedEvil | I can't see how $400 can be justified. |
| 14:24.31 | SpeedEvil | And mandate hardware requirements. |
| 14:24.50 | SpeedEvil | That make stuff use more power, even when not playing premium content. |
| 14:25.16 | noidd | well, $45 can be justified. |
| 14:25.33 | noidd | but yeah - no way in hell am I paying over $50. |
| 14:25.46 | noidd | I work with a few Microsoft Alumni. |
| 14:26.11 | noidd | Say what you want about MS but ex-employees can still but this shit from MS at "cost". |
| 14:26.26 | noidd | thats a decient employee (and ex-employee) benefit. |
| 14:26.32 | hrw | noidd: use XP? |
| 14:26.57 | noidd | XP didn't have the built in video editor |
| 14:27.11 | noidd | I can always do that |
| 14:27.19 | Morgaine | But $45 is not its real cost. Its cost is $45 plus the cost of the machine that you are dedicating to run it. |
| 14:28.32 | noidd | the machine dual-boots to linux for real work. |
| 14:28.43 | noidd | right now vista is un-usable so its kinda irrelevant :-P |
| 14:32.27 | jannu | noidd: if you can get along with the bundled video editor in vista, you could try kino on linux |
| 14:32.31 | SpeedEvil | I sincerely hope that vista has to revoke the key of a major hardware component selling in millions. |
| 14:32.48 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@p57AE9C8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:32.49 | jannu | noidd: http://www.kinodv.org/ |
| 14:33.06 | jannu | noidd: or lives http://lives.sourceforge.net/ |
| 14:33.19 | *** join/#openmoko prpplague (n=dave@12.190.41.146) |
| 14:34.00 | SpeedEvil | I wonder what the global warming effects of all this AES encryption of uncompressed video streams is... Couple of watts times a few hundred million isn't a real small number. |
| 14:34.15 | Morgaine | Hehe |
| 14:34.54 | Morgaine | Actually, the main reason for recent global warming is probably all the talk about global warming ... |
| 14:37.04 | jannu | noidd: then, if either of those work for you, return the vista box and donate the $45 to that project |
| 14:37.26 | Morgaine | Hmmm ... reversible computing can be very low power in theory. I wonder if that can be translated into encryption/decryption ... it's certainly reversible, but not in the computing sense methinks. |
| 14:38.38 | Morgaine | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing |
| 14:38.54 | noidd | jannu: if either of those work for me I will donate the $45 |
| 14:39.01 | noidd | you have my word on that. |
| 14:39.49 | jannu | noidd: I use kino occassionally and it's always worked for me. |
| 14:40.25 | jannu | noidd: I just found lives, so I'm not sure about it, but it looks quite good |
| 14:40.35 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 14:40.57 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
| 14:41.09 | noidd | cinelerra was just way too unstable for me. |
| 14:41.40 | noidd | I am completely broke and unable to continue developing LiVES at present. Please make a donation to help keep the LiVES project going ! |
| 14:41.42 | noidd | bah |
| 14:42.36 | noidd | I guess none of those can do HD editing. |
| 14:42.49 | noidd | not that I seem to have the processing power to do DV editing let alone HD |
| 14:43.19 | noidd | I have my own TV show being broadcast in April |
| 14:43.33 | noidd | I can use the TV stations equipment but - ya know... |
| 14:43.43 | noidd | be nice to be ableto do it on my own time. |
| 14:44.27 | Morgaine | How's the Perl integration/refactoring into OE coming along? |
| 14:46.07 | Morgaine | Seem to recall that there was some kind of madness with several hundred modules or something. |
| 14:47.30 | koen | it only generated 700+ packages |
| 14:48.18 | hrw | 861 |
| 14:49.44 | hrw | http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/ultraslim-credit-cardsized-bluetooth-keyboard-235252.php |
| 14:50.50 | mitcheloc | it's ugly |
| 14:50.54 | mitcheloc | heh |
| 14:51.01 | SuN | Ugly, but useful. |
| 14:51.06 | Morgaine | I can't figure out if that's a new version of the well-known Freedom keyboard, or the old version. |
| 14:51.16 | florian | cute :-) |
| 14:51.47 | SuN | "If that is credit-card sized, that man's hands are awfully tiny." |
| 14:51.49 | SuN | Point! |
| 14:51.57 | Morgaine | This is the better-known Freedom: |
| 14:52.03 | Morgaine | http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/product/8555.htm |
| 14:52.52 | LuitvD | that's a strange device |
| 14:53.02 | LuitvD | I like it :) |
| 14:53.05 | Morgaine | Yeah |
| 14:53.28 | mitcheloc | damn, tiny |
| 14:53.37 | LuitvD | damn useful |
| 14:53.41 | LuitvD | for it's size |
| 14:53.41 | mitcheloc | i just want me a medion umpc :) |
| 14:53.59 | LuitvD | does medion do umpc's too? :S |
| 14:54.17 | LuitvD | wow... |
| 14:54.19 | LuitvD | nice device |
| 14:54.20 | mitcheloc | it's a new thing, as of the first of this month i believe |
| 14:54.22 | mitcheloc | * next month |
| 14:54.50 | LuitvD | GPS, DVB-t, wifi, bluetooth... |
| 14:54.56 | LuitvD | that thing is nice |
| 14:55.16 | LuitvD | but what's the resolution of that screen? :P |
| 14:55.26 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@193.170.68.74) |
| 14:56.08 | LuitvD | ah, never mind, found it |
| 14:57.10 | LuitvD | 800x480... that's only 76800 pixels more than the Neo1973 |
| 14:57.12 | LuitvD | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:57.28 | mitcheloc | it also has a camera |
| 14:57.36 | mitcheloc | and slide out keyboard |
| 14:57.42 | LuitvD | so? I have an SLR camera ;) |
| 14:57.52 | mitcheloc | yes but try to use the slr as a webcam! |
| 14:58.00 | mitcheloc | for msn while you are driving heh |
| 14:58.01 | LuitvD | and the slide-out keyboard is weird... |
| 14:58.06 | mitcheloc | not that that is safe.... |
| 14:59.08 | LuitvD | hmm, I'd rather have a Neo then that Medion RM1000 |
| 14:59.23 | LuitvD | (for the software, the phone, and the size :P ) |
| 14:59.55 | *** join/#openmoko Vanuatoo (n=vanob@213.131.37.174) |
| 14:59.58 | LuitvD | have you guys read of omnifone? |
| 15:00.42 | LuitvD | www.omnifone.com |
| 15:00.45 | LuitvD | looks promising |
| 15:01.40 | LuitvD | (though I don't like the "DRM is built-in" part...) |
| 15:02.53 | libervisco | How does "linmotion" sound to you guys? |
| 15:03.19 | SuN | A lot like Linspire, if I'm honest :P |
| 15:03.28 | libervisco | ah :) |
| 15:03.44 | libervisco | SuN: it's actually Liberty In Motion |
| 15:03.50 | libervisco | could also be Linux In Motion |
| 15:04.02 | libervisco | referring to open mobiles of course |
| 15:04.03 | *** part/#openmoko boorad (n=boorad@adsl-219-44-120.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 15:05.45 | Morgaine | libervisco: make "liberty" part of the name and you have a winner ;-) |
| 15:05.45 | buz | why should i want to pay for music that only runs on a mobile phone |
| 15:05.45 | buz | seems positively stupid to me |
| 15:05.45 | Morgaine | buz: aye |
| 15:05.59 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=rob_w@p549B9CD3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:06.03 | libervisco | Morgaine: you mean LibertyInMotion.com? |
| 15:06.09 | buz | then again, most things with phones are positively stupid |
| 15:06.39 | Morgaine | buz: funny how it sounds positively fantastic from a marketroid's point of view. Two different universes. |
| 15:07.07 | buz | marketroids live in RDF all day long |
| 15:07.07 | *** part/#openmoko Vanuatoo (n=vanob@213.131.37.174) |
| 15:07.17 | Morgaine | libervisco: dunno about that, almost sounds like a brand of laxative ;-) |
| 15:07.19 | *** join/#openmoko gambler (n=orion@203-206-57-128.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 15:07.41 | libervisco | ahh |
| 15:07.47 | libervisco | :D |
| 15:07.52 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=sajt@dsl54007F85.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 15:08.02 | libervisco | this is probably the toughest part of launching this site.. choosing a name :D |
| 15:08.45 | Morgaine | It's always so. Like in MMOGs, take more time choosing the name of a char than specc'ing it, hehe |
| 15:08.57 | libervisco | hehe |
| 15:10.43 | Morgaine | buz: presumably Neo/OM is going to raise the ire of the ringtone industry. ;-) That's going to be fun |
| 15:10.50 | mitcheloc | libervisco: you need a name to launch a website? |
| 15:10.51 | buz | mhh |
| 15:10.59 | buz | most decent phones can use mp3 as ringtone |
| 15:11.06 | *** part/#openmoko Mortimus (n=mortimus@pool-71-250-95-89.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 15:11.14 | libervisco | mitcheloc: yeah |
| 15:11.32 | mitcheloc | libervisco: how does "pink cable" sound? i've got this pink network cable for my laptop |
| 15:11.41 | mitcheloc | so i decided to buy pinkcable.com, gotta put something up one day... |
| 15:11.46 | libervisco | :D |
| 15:12.04 | Morgaine | Pink? You mean like ponies? And FPGA? |
| 15:12.10 | libervisco | hehe |
| 15:12.36 | libervisco | if it's already registered, it's not much use to me.. ;) |
| 15:12.46 | mitcheloc | joint venture? =P |
| 15:13.01 | libervisco | right :P |
| 15:13.22 | mitcheloc | i've also got a two letter .ag domain hiding somewhere |
| 15:13.27 | mitcheloc | too bad .ag is meaningless |
| 15:13.39 | mitcheloc | and since i haven't paid it in years, if they detect me using it, i'm afraid they will disable it |
| 15:13.40 | mitcheloc | heh |
| 15:13.50 | libervisco | eh |
| 15:13.55 | mitcheloc | actually, for that matter, i never paid for it, this was well before they had an automated system in place |
| 15:14.01 | Morgaine | Sell fr.ag to the headshot brigade, you'll make a million ;-) |
| 15:14.08 | libervisco | lol |
| 15:14.10 | mitcheloc | i don't have that :( |
| 15:14.15 | libervisco | fr.ag that's nice :) |
| 15:16.32 | *** join/#openmoko tr2x (n=alvar@80-218-185-55.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 15:16.46 | tg | counter |
| 15:16.46 | aloril | source: 2 days 20:43:13 (2.863 days); P0: 16.863; P1: 47.863; P2: 230.863 (see counter?) (276) |
| 15:17.17 | tg | counter? |
| 15:17.18 | aloril | (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12, but actual date hopefully is earlier (maybe even several days)): 2 days 20:42:42 (2.863 days) for source for *all* developers (2007-02-14); 2 weeks, 2 days (16.863 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, 2 weeks, 2 days (47.863 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days (230.863 days) for mass market (200 |
| 15:20.00 | Elrond | That's so long, that irc truncated the last char. ;o) |
| 15:20.53 | mitcheloc | what is that countdown for? |
| 15:21.11 | Morgaine | Talking about the headshot brigade (and seeing as we have another 3 days to wait) ... these videos are utterly hilarious. Gotta start from #1 though for context: |
| 15:21.19 | Morgaine | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:21.31 | fluffs | to annoy people who've not yet got their units |
| 15:21.38 | tg | yeah |
| 15:21.38 | tg | :) |
| 15:22.00 | buz | even more annyoing would be a upcounting counter hehehe |
| 15:22.06 | Morgaine | hehe |
| 15:23.04 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w|mis (n=rob_w@p549B9CD3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:23.13 | Elrond | I wonder, what aloril will do, when the counter finally reaches zero ;) |
| 15:23.22 | Morgaine | Implode |
| 15:23.29 | buz | wipe his screen |
| 15:23.52 | Morgaine | Turn into a cream cake |
| 15:24.39 | Elrond | Morgaine - wishful thinking? ;) |
| 15:24.57 | Morgaine | Elrond: yeah, haven't had lunch yet ;-) |
| 15:26.10 | Elrond | I had launch, but am still somewhat jaded. ;) |
| 15:26.14 | rob_w|mis | i bet peopel will find another stupid usage for that counter |
| 15:26.51 | rob_w|mis | Morgaine, oh no .., dont use the t-word ;-) |
| 15:26.59 | Morgaine | Oops |
| 15:27.30 | rob_w|mis | now this channel is observed 90% of the secruity instances world wide |
| 15:27.32 | Elrond | telekom? ;o) (that's one of the T*-words here. ;) ) |
| 15:27.35 | aloril | Elrond: that already happened earlier today (local time) ;-) |
| 15:27.58 | aloril | Elrond: better question is when something actually happens: will remove that part |
| 15:28.12 | aloril | (or replace it with link in long version) |
| 15:28.30 | Elrond | Morgaine - Can you hunt some chocolate in the fridge area for me? ;) |
| 15:28.52 | Elrond | aloril - :-) What are you coding this in? |
| 15:29.21 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 15:29.39 | ROB1963 | hmmm... looks as if those snipers finally found rob_w |
| 15:30.00 | aloril | Elrond: xchat python module (but works as standalone program too) |
| 15:30.07 | rob_w|mis | ROB1963, tsts |
| 15:30.17 | ROB1963 | :-) |
| 15:30.26 | aloril | (running locally in shell) |
| 15:30.32 | Morgaine | We've, we've discussed encryption here, and are subverting the entire western phone industry business model by openess, and are hacking a device that can be used for warhead guidance ... so I'd guess that we're near the top of the observation list anyway ;-) |
| 15:30.33 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@mail.ccasa.org) |
| 15:30.54 | rob_w | Morgaine, oh thats is true .. damn |
| 15:31.11 | SpeedEvil | Add a webcam, a servo, and robosniper! |
| 15:31.38 | ROB1963 | that is samsung tech |
| 15:31.48 | rob_w | its like with everything : the question is : Do we weaponize this item or not .. |
| 15:32.10 | Morgaine | Elrond: sorry, no chocolate ... that area is still under the control of insurgents. |
| 15:32.12 | SpeedEvil | Well - I'd strongly suggest that it not include an open-source missile guidance app. |
| 15:32.29 | mitcheloc | Morgaine: really any phone can be used for guidance, just put asterisk on the other end, and use DTMF |
| 15:32.33 | ROB1963 | thats a matter of time :-D |
| 15:33.27 | Morgaine | mitcheloc: we know that. But logic has never been the strong point of those in power. |
| 15:36.15 | Elrond | Morgaine - Okay... let me go home, then I'll find my blade and we can free that area ;o) |
| 15:37.24 | Morgaine | Elrond: they've got planet-busting hyperspace beam weapons .... that sword of yours had better be good. |
| 15:37.49 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 15:38.01 | Elrond | Morgaine - It's very good! :) |
| 15:38.09 | Morgaine | :P |
| 15:39.08 | dottedmag | counter |
| 15:39.08 | aloril | source: 2 days 20:20:51 (2.848 days); P0: 16.848; P1: 47.848; P2: 230.848 (see counter?) (278) |
| 15:39.12 | dottedmag | :] |
| 15:39.25 | fluffs | ok, that is much better |
| 15:40.09 | Elrond | Morgaine - Guess why I don't take it to work. People would be totaly chocked. ;o) |
| 15:41.16 | mitcheloc | meh, the butterfly effect 2 was a dutz |
| 15:41.53 | aloril | s"see counter\?"long: /msg aloril counter\?" |
| 15:43.26 | aloril | (but of course if some newbie asks for stuff, still can use long version to answer here too) |
| 15:43.37 | Elrond | Anyway, I'm on the travel home. Later boys and girls. ;) |
| 15:43.39 | fluffs | I don't take stuff into work unless I want the boss to take it to bits |
| 15:44.34 | mitcheloc | hey guys, why does the neo 1973 have a big whole on the bottom? |
| 15:44.35 | mitcheloc | * hole |
| 15:44.38 | Elrond | faq::for-mum-and-dad::counter? |
| 15:44.39 | Elrond | ;o) |
| 15:44.49 | aloril | mitcheloc: lanyard |
| 15:45.15 | mitcheloc | i see |
| 15:45.17 | aloril | Elrond: hehe |
| 15:45.21 | mitcheloc | the release date? |
| 15:45.35 | aloril | mitcheloc: lanyard will be included in box |
| 15:45.45 | Elrond | Wee. |
| 15:45.54 | Elrond | Will a stylus be included? |
| 15:46.23 | aloril | I think some mail said stylus will be included too |
| 15:46.37 | mitcheloc | aloril: do you know anything about a release date? |
| 15:46.56 | aloril | mitcheloc: scroll a bit up for that looong counter message ;-) |
| 15:47.16 | Elrond | mitcheloc - Or use "/msg aloril counter?". |
| 15:47.37 | mitcheloc | ahh i thought the counter was for some sort of rpg game |
| 15:47.41 | mitcheloc | i wonder why i thought that |
| 15:47.47 | aloril | mitcheloc: hehe |
| 15:48.27 | mitcheloc | got it |
| 15:51.45 | Morgaine | Whoopsy, big split |
| 15:51.46 | Elrond | Oh, wait... all this neo/openmoko stuff is a big rpg? ;o) |
| 15:51.47 | Clint | roll a save vs. release delay |
| 15:51.48 | Morgaine | There's a chance it might be :-) |
| 15:51.49 | XorA | Elrond: take 2D6 damge |
| 15:52.11 | mitcheloc | it's the worlds most distributed rpg over gsm? |
| 15:52.12 | Elrond | XorA - What do you mean? |
| 15:52.29 | XorA | Elrond: the Gazeebo is going to get you |
| 15:52.46 | Morgaine | One of the big ARGs completed a few days ago, with The Cube being discovered. |
| 15:53.07 | Morgaine | $200k reward to finder |
| 15:53.13 | Elrond | Anyway, the coachman is ready. Getting home now. :-) |
| 15:53.23 | Morgaine | Cya later :-) |
| 15:53.26 | SpeedEvil | Don't spare the ponies. |
| 15:53.33 | alphaone | yay |
| 15:53.46 | *** join/#openmoko k-s (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:53.51 | alphaone | www.openmoko.org |
| 15:54.01 | mitcheloc | I meditate to regain my mana, before casting Lvl. 8 Cock of the Infinite. |
| 15:54.06 | *** join/#openmoko apakatt (n=apakatt@89.207.216.81.static.j.siw.siwnet.net) |
| 15:54.10 | Morgaine | rofl |
| 15:54.16 | cjb | haha |
| 15:54.30 | Morgaine | Just don't put on your wizard hat pls, there are children watching |
| 15:54.30 | mitcheloc | I spend my mana reserves to cast Mighty F*ck of the Beyondness. |
| 15:54.31 | *** join/#openmoko bmidgley_ (n=bmidgley@c-67-166-71-203.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:54.51 | mitcheloc | you've got to love bloodninja :) |
| 15:55.14 | mitcheloc | SpeedEvil: "I stomp the ground, and snort, to alert you that you are in my breeding territory." |
| 15:55.20 | *** join/#openmoko Fletch (n=fantasma@doener.lieferservice.cc) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:55.35 | mitcheloc | oh what a way to start the day |
| 15:55.35 | LuitvD | wow, very big split :D |
| 15:55.37 | *** join/#openmoko benJIman (n=bw@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk) |
| 15:55.38 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: I'd run, if I were you |
| 15:55.48 | *** join/#openmoko ag (n=ag@caladan.roxor.cx) |
| 15:55.50 | *** join/#openmoko libervisco (n=daniel@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:55.51 | *** join/#openmoko madwoota (n=mad@woota.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:55.55 | mitcheloc | Morgaine: don't encourage me! |
| 15:56.06 | Morgaine | mitcheloc: hehe |
| 15:56.22 | SpeedEvil | Hmm. |
| 15:56.30 | SpeedEvil | Sporting apps for the neo... |
| 15:56.34 | SpeedEvil | Golf is obvious. |
| 15:56.59 | SpeedEvil | Scuba is right out. |
| 15:57.02 | Morgaine | Curling, as we have so many scandinavian fans |
| 15:57.24 | SpeedEvil | Attach little brushes to the bottom, and upgrade the vibrator motor. |
| 15:58.29 | Morgaine | Well, you can brush the path in front of the stones with your finger on ts, so curling can be done. |
| 15:59.21 | SpeedEvil | I was meaning more RL sport assistance ones. |
| 15:59.21 | *** join/#openmoko Agrajag- (n=filip@c211-30-4-5.artrmn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 15:59.21 | *** join/#openmoko nnpiggy (n=nnpiggy@24.crcr10.xdsl.nauticom.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:59.22 | *** join/#openmoko rox (n=rox@84.52.147.74) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:59.22 | *** join/#openmoko krau (n=cktakaha@200.184.118.132) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:59.22 | *** join/#openmoko hrw (n=hrw@ewi546.ewi.utwente.nl) |
| 15:59.24 | LuitvD | wb |
| 15:59.24 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: RL? is that some sort of new MMOG? ;-) |
| 15:59.25 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:59.25 | SpeedEvil | Yes. |
| 15:59.26 | SpeedEvil | Pretty dull though. |
| 15:59.27 | Morgaine | Hehe |
| 15:59.30 | SpeedEvil | And way too many griefers. |
| 15:59.39 | *** join/#openmoko silwol (n=silwol@193.170.68.74) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 16:00.18 | Morgaine | And very poor resurrection support. |
| 16:00.18 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 16:00.18 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-72-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 16:00.19 | *** join/#openmoko dw_swe (n=dw@h-215-34.A162.cust.bahnhof.se) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 16:00.19 | *** join/#openmoko merriam (n=merriam@84-12-152-141.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 16:00.19 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@ip-217-18-181-130.static.reverse.dsi.net) |
| 16:00.19 | *** join/#openmoko aloril2 (n=aloril@kaar72.airix.fi) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 16:00.23 | *** join/#openmoko xkr47 (i=xkr47@2001:14b8:141:5926:5358:9793:2384:6264) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 16:00.23 | *** join/#openmoko sjoerd (n=sjoerd@tunnel3460.ipv6.xs4all.nl) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
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| 16:00.41 | aloril | good resolution though and low ping times ;-) |
| 16:00.47 | *** join/#openmoko xkr47 (i=xkr47@2001:14b8:141:5926:5358:9793:2384:6264) |
| 16:00.49 | Morgaine | hehe |
| 16:00.54 | SpeedEvil | Ping time sucks for distant users. |
| 16:00.55 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@ip-217-18-181-130.static.reverse.dsi.net) |
| 16:01.02 | SpeedEvil | I mean, speed of light, what's with that. |
| 16:01.28 | mitcheloc | good point |
| 16:01.41 | *** join/#openmoko hadara (i=hadara@2001:7d0:0:1:2d0:b7ff:feb7:f667) |
| 16:01.41 | mitcheloc | whats my ping? i'm using radio waves instead |
| 16:01.45 | *** join/#openmoko MetaMorfoziS (n=sajt@dsl54007F85.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 16:02.15 | SpeedEvil | Kumbi: login |
| 16:02.17 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 16:02.57 | mitcheloc | ever see the chumby? |
| 16:03.25 | l3010o | the source is released? |
| 16:04.10 | *** join/#openmoko sjoerd (n=sjoerd@tunnel3460.ipv6.xs4all.nl) |
| 16:04.32 | aloril | l3010o: got delayed, should be within 3 days |
| 16:05.03 | l3010o | oh..ok let's wait =) |
| 16:05.11 | *** join/#openmoko [g2] (n=g2@nslu2-linux/g2) |
| 16:05.33 | aloril | http://www.openmoko.org/ got password protected (had dummy content for a while) |
| 16:05.50 | Morgaine | Well if you think about it carefully enough, RL actually is just another virtual world -- we don't actually touch the substance of matter directly, but only indirectly through forces, and we don't actually know the world is there, but correlate mental models with perceptions. |
| 16:06.18 | Morgaine | Seems real enough to me ... but I know I'm deceiving myself ;-) |
| 16:08.03 | ajturner | mitcheloc - CHUMBY! |
| 16:09.59 | ajturner | chumby has been "coming soon" for quite awhile |
| 16:11.10 | Morgaine | Easy to see the deception on the visual side. Just press your eyeball (gently!!!!) until your mental model loses its correlation with the visual input, and then see the incredible crap that our eyes actually generate as input. Our brain doesn't show us visual reality --- it shows us the model we expect instead. ;-) |
| 16:15.58 | Morgaine | This is also why cats brought up in an environment with only horizontal lines walk straight into anything with vertical edges. They simply don't see the object, there is no mental model for things that are vertical. |
| 16:16.24 | *** join/#openmoko pleemans (n=peter@d51A5E76A.access.telenet.be) |
| 16:30.40 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas11-ottawa23-1177563819.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 16:31.36 | LuitvD[eating] | lol, oops :P |
| 16:31.43 | LuitvD[eating] | ah well... |
| 16:33.58 | Morgaine | Sleepeating? ;-) |
| 16:38.11 | rob_w | oh oh , the list is getting hot on openmoko trademarks now .. seems the project hit some critical mass |
| 16:38.26 | Morgaine | Oh boy :-( |
| 16:38.38 | koen | the list? |
| 16:38.45 | koen | oh, the non-devel list |
| 16:39.05 | rob_w | yeah |
| 16:39.57 | noidd | openmoko trademarks? |
| 16:40.15 | noidd | I confess, I did register an openmoko based domainname :-) |
| 16:40.26 | noidd | but screw trademarks, I don't really care that much about them |
| 16:40.29 | *** join/#openmoko mikesh (n=mikesh@x133.net.upc.cz) |
| 16:42.28 | rob_w | noidd, well u better be sure about that .. |
| 16:43.03 | mikesh | counter |
| 16:43.03 | aloril | source: 2 days 19:16:56 (2.803 days); P0: 16.803; P1: 47.803; P2: 230.803 (newbie version: counter?) (279) |
| 16:43.39 | mikesh | counter? |
| 16:43.40 | aloril | (actual release might happen earlier): 2 days 19:16:20 (2.803 days) for source for *all* developers (2007-02-14); 2 weeks, 2 days (16.803 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, 2 weeks, 2 days (47.803 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days (230.803 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (280) |
| 16:44.27 | *** join/#openmoko greentux (n=lemke@195.227.105.180) |
| 16:44.28 | rob_w | i dont see much problem about the openmoko string but yet neo1973 seems to be a product name of FIC |
| 16:45.12 | aloril | Harald Welte: Sandisk 2GB SDSDQU-2048-E10M works just fine. ( http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003156.html ) |
| 16:45.20 | hrw | rob_w: Neo1973 is first phone running OpenMoko platform. both are FIC |
| 16:45.27 | hrw | and he's gone |
| 16:45.35 | *** join/#openmoko edistar (n=edwinloc@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 16:47.46 | Morgaine | Anyone seeking to restrict access to names gets no sympathy from me. That's as true for Windows and iPhone as it is for OpenMoko. |
| 16:48.25 | robtaylor | Morgaine: as someone said on the list, a trademark holder has to be seen to protect their trademark |
| 16:48.41 | ajturner | rob_w - 800+ people, you're bound to hit someones nerve on something at somepoint |
| 16:48.42 | Morgaine | robtaylor: only by legal BS. It doesn't make it right |
| 16:48.48 | ajturner | see: previous GNU discussions :) |
| 16:49.17 | edistar | hope I am not repeating othe people, but when will the neo be released? |
| 16:49.28 | robtaylor | Morgaine: if you don't, then you'll have problems when some evil entity wants to steal your trademark |
| 16:49.39 | robtaylor | e.g. apple =) |
| 16:49.50 | hrw | http://usb.brando.com.hk/prod_detail.php?prod_id=00241 |
| 16:49.52 | ajturner | apple evil? no. Business savvy - yes |
| 16:49.54 | Morgaine | robtaylor: sorry, but you're the legal entity in the first place by seeking to own a word. |
| 16:49.54 | robtaylor | or the other apple, even |
| 16:50.03 | Morgaine | s/legal/evil/ |
| 16:50.10 | robtaylor | Morgaine: no a trademark isn't ownership of a word |
| 16:50.29 | Morgaine | robtaylor: it's restricting use of a word. |
| 16:50.29 | aloril | edistar: /msg aloril counter? |
| 16:51.09 | robtaylor | Morgaine: not even that, you can't trademark a word |
| 16:51.09 | robtaylor | not unless you made it up |
| 16:51.10 | aloril | mickeyl: you might want to update topic with latest announcement |
| 16:51.41 | robtaylor | Morgaine: thats why in the Lindows/MS battle, MS settled out of court |
| 16:51.41 | ajturner | robtayler - ever see the inside of books (esp. roleplaying books?) they'll trademark words like "Rhino" and "Magic" :) at least within a similar context |
| 16:51.52 | Morgaine | robtaylor: it simply doesn't scale. In humanity continued down this IP madeness (trademarks are just part of it), then in due course we will not be able to open our mouths without treading on someone's "rights". |
| 16:52.01 | mickeyl | aloril: ok |
| 16:52.02 | robtaylor | Morgaine: as they know their trademark on windows wont stand up in a court of law |
| 16:52.44 | aloril | edistar: details: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html (and another announce mail already mentioned in topic) |
| 16:52.45 | koen | hrw: looks a bit flimsy |
| 16:52.57 | robtaylor | ajturner: probably not valid trademarks, unless they're claiming that word in a particular prsentation is th trademark |
| 16:53.25 | robtaylor | Morgaine: its a bit different,also to hold a trademark you actually have to trade using it |
| 16:53.27 | Morgaine | robtaylor: I'm not basing it on precedent nor law nor what MS is or is not doing. I'm basing it on commonsense: you don't close down the vocabulary of a civilization to protect your income. |
| 16:53.32 | koen | robtaylor: have thought up a name for your new business yet? |
| 16:53.39 | edistar | september then? |
| 16:53.44 | robtaylor | Morgaine: if you fail to do that then you also risklosing it |
| 16:53.59 | robtaylor | Morgaine: so trademarks are effectivly self-limiting, unlike patents |
| 16:54.12 | robtaylor | koen: yeah CodeThink Ltd |
| 16:54.13 | aloril | edistar: mass market version, but you can buy devel version near end of next month for $350 |
| 16:54.15 | Morgaine | robtaylor: how can you lose something you don't have, except through a figment of a lawyer's imagination? |
| 16:54.43 | robtaylor | Morgaine: all property is in societies imagination. thats not really a valid argument against it |
| 16:55.00 | edistar | btw: is there wifi, I can't believe that there isn't with an apt-get supplied.. |
| 16:55.18 | koen | edistar: there isn't apt-get either |
| 16:55.18 | *** join/#openmoko zween (n=zween@80-47-249-244.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) |
| 16:55.26 | aloril | wifi? |
| 16:55.26 | aloril | When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess |
| 16:55.27 | edistar | but an application manager |
| 16:55.31 | robtaylor | edistar: no, late 2008 for wifi version |
| 16:55.37 | edistar | that works the same way, right? |
| 16:55.56 | morricone | or you can use bluethooth or a usb-cable |
| 16:56.00 | Morgaine | robtaylor: I'm referring to language. By bringing "property" into the discussion, you're purposely making the a priori assumption that language is property. Sorry, but that flawed logical discourse. |
| 16:56.09 | koen | or just a sd card to install packages from |
| 16:56.14 | edistar | okey |
| 16:56.17 | edistar | that sound alright |
| 16:56.31 | edistar | so you can access internet via usb cable from the pc? |
| 16:56.31 | robtaylor | Morgaine: no, i'm saying your argument that a legal entity is by definition invalid |
| 16:56.39 | edistar | I have a debian box.. |
| 16:56.46 | mjr | edistar, that is one of the plans at least |
| 16:56.52 | robtaylor | Morgaine: is exactly the same as saying property is invalid |
| 16:57.16 | robtaylor | Morgaine: which is a plausible belief, but not one you'd get very far by espousing in our society |
| 16:57.25 | Morgaine | robtaylor: that's broader than what I'm saying. I'm saying that to shut down our free access to language is bad, and giving it the defense of law doesn't in any way remove that badness. |
| 16:57.27 | edistar | okey, thanks :) |
| 16:57.50 | edistar | cu soon |
| 16:58.23 | *** join/#openmoko orospakr (n=orospakr@bas11-ottawa23-1177563819.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 16:59.06 | *** join/#openmoko rd_ (n=redragon@segfault.net) |
| 16:59.19 | *** join/#openmoko quinton (n=quinton@84-45-151-51.no-dns-yet.enta.net) |
| 16:59.27 | Morgaine | And no, you can't replace one noun by another noun and make out that the logic is still the same. That would be an instance of Feynman's cargo cult. |
| 16:59.29 | *** join/#openmoko chaoticz-blue (n=leo@213-140-11-133.fastres.net) |
| 17:00.35 | *** join/#openmoko gemi (n=gemi@253.154.78.83.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 17:00.44 | robtaylor | Morgaine: umm s/noun/legal concept/ |
| 17:01.10 | robtaylor | as you claimed all legal concepts are invalid, then yes i can, in your argument-space |
| 17:01.25 | [g2] | counter |
| 17:01.25 | aloril | source: 2 days 18:58:35 (2.791 days); P0: 16.791; P1: 47.791; P2: 230.791 (long: /msg aloril counter?) (281) |
| 17:02.51 | *** join/#openmoko l4rs (n=laprican@hsiproxy.astra-net.com) |
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| 17:05.19 | *** join/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@thbh-ip-vsat-2-p254.vsat.telkom-ipnet.co.za) |
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| 17:12.54 | Elrond | Okay, back home. |
| 17:13.11 | Elrond | Morgaine - The chocolate cream cake area is freed! ;) |
| 17:13.22 | Morgaine | Elrond: lol |
| 17:13.34 | Morgaine | Did you plant a flag, or just grab and run? |
| 17:14.02 | Elrond | They offered the cake to me freely. :) |
| 17:14.13 | Morgaine | ITSATRAP !!! |
| 17:14.14 | Morgaine | :P |
| 17:14.36 | Elrond | I checked all hiding places. :) |
| 17:15.06 | *** join/#openmoko suspence (n=spencer@208.187.196.34) |
| 17:15.23 | Elrond | Morgaine - You also want one? |
| 17:16.02 | Morgaine | Check the cakes! I caught part of an insurgent transmission, and it mentioned nanobots .... |
| 17:16.43 | Elrond | ... for checking. ;) |
| 17:19.40 | Morgaine | Erk, firkin piece of ISS wreckage was in the way. Waldo's OK, just feeling a bit miffed with itself. |
| 17:20.35 | Elrond | Ohh. When will they clean up that crap? |
| 17:20.42 | Morgaine | Apparently the space junk said "... Del .... S.ny ..." on it. |
| 17:21.48 | *** join/#openmoko jebba (n=jebba@OL80-42.fibertel.com.ar) |
| 17:23.11 | LuitvD | done eating / sleeping :) |
| 17:23.27 | LuitvD | (stupid /away script |
| 17:24.20 | *** join/#openmoko rejon (n=rejon@c-24-23-175-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 17:29.05 | *** join/#openmoko dougt_ (n=chatzill@gw.office.mozilla.org) |
| 17:29.17 | *** join/#openmoko lightyear (n=lightyea@p54876E4E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:31.18 | Morgaine | That community ML is just awful. I really have sympathy for CSR people whose actual day job is to wade such lists and answer the same thing again and again. Must be mind numbing. |
| 17:32.53 | Morgaine | It used to be the unwritten rule that you read everything and lurked for a week before posting ... that is such ancient history now. |
| 17:33.23 | koen | right |
| 17:33.42 | koen | I guess that's why people prefer fora |
| 17:33.53 | LuitvD | or a search form |
| 17:33.56 | koen | not every bit of ignorant drivel gets into your inbox |
| 17:34.13 | dottedmag | Morgaine: well, I think it's a good enhancement to be requested to be implemented the Mailman :) |
| 17:34.21 | koen | LuitvD: google site://openmoko.org |
| 17:34.35 | LuitvD | koen: yeah, I do know how it works :P |
| 17:34.41 | LuitvD | but most people don't |
| 17:35.09 | koen | "will there be wifi in v1?" |
| 17:35.12 | Elrond | Hi mickeyl! :) |
| 17:35.13 | Morgaine | lol |
| 17:35.14 | LuitvD | and openmoko.org still isn't open for the public? |
| 17:35.18 | mickeyl | yo Elrond |
| 17:36.15 | alphaone | mickeyl: Cool design you had up there for a minute :-) |
| 17:36.34 | Elrond | LuitvD - Within the next few days. :) |
| 17:36.41 | LuitvD | mooh :( |
| 17:37.17 | LuitvD | I never liked waiting |
| 17:37.26 | mickeyl | alphaone ;) |
| 17:38.01 | aloril | LuitvD: yeah, but its not that much of additional time |
| 17:38.24 | LuitvD | aloril: I mean waiting for the final release... |
| 17:38.34 | Elrond | mickeyl - To the "openmoko team": Thanks for the decision (in the announcement). |
| 17:38.54 | aloril | LuitvD: even that was not postponed that much, maybe week or few |
| 17:38.58 | LuitvD | I just know I'll buy one the second it in the shop |
| 17:39.22 | *** join/#openmoko max_azzolini (n=chatzill@89.97.249.67) |
| 17:39.30 | LuitvD | a month or a month + one week... it's both waiting :P |
| 17:40.16 | LuitvD | hmm, that google switch rumor is nice... the device shown in the pictures |
| 17:40.32 | alphaone | mickeyl: Thanks for the mail. I guess I wasn't clear enough that I had your permission. |
| 17:40.38 | LuitvD | can't the second openmoko device be like that? :P |
| 17:41.00 | mickeyl | alphaone: np |
| 17:41.22 | mickeyl | alphaone: i guess they also didn't get your joke about becoming rich through OpenMoko |
| 17:41.25 | mickeyl | *shrug* |
| 17:41.43 | *** join/#openmoko vrt (n=vrt@unaffiliated/cherubiel) |
| 17:42.03 | vrt | counter |
| 17:42.04 | aloril | source: 2 days 18:17:56 (2.762 days); P0: 16.762; P1: 47.762; P2: 230.762 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (282) |
| 17:42.41 | LuitvD | aloril: any idea how many devices will go out at first? |
| 17:42.56 | aloril | LuitvD: no idea |
| 17:43.14 | LuitvD | I'd love to have one before the final release :P |
| 17:43.32 | LuitvD | maybe even for beta testing, if possible... |
| 17:43.33 | LuitvD | XD |
| 17:44.57 | vrt | we all are, LuitvD :P |
| 17:45.06 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 17:45.09 | Morgaine | Sean said that they kind of guessed at the production run needed to fulfill initial orders, so it sounds like it's a batched JIT operation with a small first run. |
| 17:45.10 | LuitvD | ^^ |
| 17:46.02 | LuitvD | if, in any way, anyone has a spare Neo... :P |
| 17:46.09 | Morgaine | Which means that at some point there will be a 3-week (?) extra delay between orders and shipping. |
| 17:46.48 | koen | sean said 7% yield was not enough to ship 50-100 phones |
| 17:46.53 | LuitvD | lol, even more waiting |
| 17:47.01 | *** join/#openmoko rob_w (n=bob@p85.212.151.15.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 17:47.02 | koen | should give you an estimate of the first run |
| 17:47.03 | Morgaine | Main production bottleneck was the display, ISTR |
| 17:47.08 | yacc | 7% yield for some cable I thought? |
| 17:47.34 | koen | yacc: It wasn't clear to me if it was the cable or the connector on the pcb |
| 17:47.46 | Morgaine | yacc: that was a fault. No sane production run of anything has 7% yield. |
| 17:48.03 | *** join/#openmoko bipolar (n=bflong@146.145.26.91) |
| 17:48.07 | yacc | Morgaine: Not for usual products ;) |
| 17:48.11 | rob_w | reading the annoucment correctly the phase 0 units will go out end of the month ?? |
| 17:48.12 | LuitvD | how is 7% yield ever possible? :S |
| 17:48.26 | Morgaine | yacc: indeed. maybe for some military things, dunno |
| 17:48.49 | CM | Someone drove a truck into the first 10 finished boxes or so |
| 17:48.56 | LuitvD | rob_w: that's what I read too :P |
| 17:49.31 | rob_w | ok so for another wigglish 3 weeks .. |
| 17:50.26 | rob_w | is there any list of core people on some wiki ? |
| 17:51.03 | Morgaine | It's industrial terrorism!!! The LiMo Foundation! They prolly put out a contract on Neo boxes .... ;-) |
| 17:52.06 | *** join/#openmoko bipolar (n=bflong@146.145.26.91) |
| 17:52.38 | koen | I hate it when the local bookstore doesn't have something in stock |
| 17:53.36 | LuitvD | koen: what bookstore? |
| 17:53.43 | LuitvD | s/what/which/ |
| 17:53.55 | koen | LuitvD: libris |
| 17:54.06 | rob_w | wow , bounty`s are also already up .. this is crazy .. |
| 17:54.07 | koen | LuitvD: but I found out it's faster to order at bol.com |
| 17:54.18 | koen | so if libris doesn't have it -> bol |
| 17:54.19 | LuitvD | koen: just wanted to say that XD |
| 17:54.36 | Morgaine | I hate losing books. Happens a lot with the ones I love most, and therefore loan to people (YOU WILL READ THIS!!! :P). I then forget who has them, and never see them again. |
| 17:55.05 | florian | Morgaine: "industrial terrorism" sounds funny :-) |
| 17:55.07 | SpeedEvil | I tend to read books on my laptop now. |
| 17:55.21 | SpeedEvil | Downloaded illegally. I then buy the paper. |
| 17:55.24 | Morgaine | I've bought some top books several times. Bookshops prolly like me. |
| 17:55.26 | SpeedEvil | If I finish it. |
| 17:55.29 | Elrond | Morgaine - And the people never give it back? |
| 17:55.31 | *** join/#openmoko Rac0r_ (n=Rac0r@p5081FEF9.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:55.50 | Morgaine | Elrond: I don't think they dare, since I'd ask them if they'd read them ;-) |
| 17:56.02 | *** join/#openmoko Tv (n=tv@adsl-75-36-71-227.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 17:56.03 | SpeedEvil | I really like the ability to search books, which doesn't happen with dead tree. |
| 17:56.07 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 17:56.45 | Morgaine | SpeedEvil: yeah, it's a major asset. Dunno when the world will get around to making all books machine-readable |
| 17:57.12 | LuitvD | Morgaine: as soon as e-paper hits the market good enaugh |
| 17:57.19 | Morgaine | As always, greed stands in the way. |
| 17:57.27 | LuitvD | (or any other type of electric ink) |
| 17:57.41 | LuitvD | Morgaine: well... actually... no... |
| 17:58.02 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 17:58.38 | LuitvD | Morgaine: I just read 4 of the 6 major dutch scholar book companies wanted to digitize their books for e-paper devices |
| 17:58.46 | rob_w | i am keen to see the first .config , wonder how much hardware needs still attention |
| 17:58.55 | LuitvD | there was a release of a quite promising device lately |
| 17:59.18 | LuitvD | rob_w: I'm keen to see everything :P |
| 17:59.31 | Morgaine | LuitvD: it'll have to be a different e-ink tech it seems. E-Ink Co has no competition atm, and seems to be stifling takeup by $$$ licensing. |
| 17:59.33 | LuitvD | the software, the hardware... the outside of the device |
| 17:59.53 | Morgaine | LuitvD: that's great, re the Dutch! |
| 18:00.22 | LuitvD | hope this one will get off the ground... |
| 18:00.43 | LuitvD | it's a step ahead of what apple ever produced |
| 18:01.25 | rob_w | hahah i like this one .. you better solve the riddle , man -- http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ideas/HumanScreening?highlight=%28OpenMoko%2FIdeas%29 |
| 18:01.33 | LuitvD | about 7 years ago they wanted to create a system for schools, with some sort of terminals, downloading the books of each class out of the teachers notebook |
| 18:01.49 | SpeedEvil | TFT is quite adequate - indoors. |
| 18:01.58 | SpeedEvil | Connected to power. |
| 18:02.03 | rob_w | this is actually quite cool , a human screening portal .. are u human ? |
| 18:02.10 | SpeedEvil | No. |
| 18:02.19 | LuitvD | rob_w: That is pure evil :D |
| 18:02.36 | rob_w | thats just for the war against the machine`s |
| 18:03.08 | LuitvD | lol, exactly what I'm saying... evil |
| 18:03.08 | LuitvD | and I like it :D |
| 18:03.11 | LuitvD | you could go one step beyond that and filter the dumb people out too :P |
| 18:03.12 | rob_w | is OleTange here ? |
| 18:03.25 | SpeedEvil | 'What is the derivitave of secant(x)' |
| 18:03.35 | LuitvD | instead of asking what 4 + 2 is, ask for the first 10 digits of PI or something :P |
| 18:03.45 | LuitvD | damn, beaten... nice one SpeedEvil :P |
| 18:03.49 | rob_w | "... you cant serve beyond this point with an IQ lower 120 " |
| 18:03.56 | LuitvD | wahahah |
| 18:03.59 | Morgaine | Well, having a background in academia, I just have zero tolerance for information being denied, for whatever reason. And $$$ reasons figure at the bottom of my tolerance list. |
| 18:04.15 | LuitvD | rob_w: that's a high limit |
| 18:04.22 | LuitvD | a high lower limit :P |
| 18:04.30 | rob_w | yeah ,, i probaly could get through myself |
| 18:04.34 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 18:04.37 | SpeedEvil | IMO, for a tethered book reader, it can be done in bulk at 40 quid. |
| 18:04.47 | rob_w | Morgaine, but this time we do not talk about information but privacy |
| 18:04.48 | SpeedEvil | With a decentish 5" TFT, and power. |
| 18:05.33 | Morgaine | rob_w: yeah, I was on the earlier topic, ebooks. |
| 18:06.02 | SpeedEvil | One quid = 2 dollars. |
| 18:06.03 | rob_w | oh |
| 18:06.06 | SpeedEvil | (US) |
| 18:06.12 | hrw | ~change 1 gbp to eur |
| 18:06.14 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: that'd be a fair trade :P |
| 18:06.24 | SpeedEvil | Err, 1 gbp = about 1.5 eruo |
| 18:06.27 | SpeedEvil | oh. |
| 18:06.34 | LuitvD | lol |
| 18:06.35 | rob_w | hrw, thanks |
| 18:06.50 | LuitvD | ~change 1 eur to usd |
| 18:06.51 | LuitvD | ? |
| 18:06.57 | LuitvD | :D |
| 18:07.03 | Morgaine | ~change 1 lightyear to furlongs |
| 18:07.07 | LuitvD | wahahah |
| 18:07.26 | LuitvD | what the hell is that :P |
| 18:07.53 | Morgaine | apt has become sentient |
| 18:08.07 | SpeedEvil | I have several laptops of this model (toshibal 3110ct). I keep meaning to take some 6mm glass, laminate the display to it. And the back, to make it a tablet for ebooks. |
| 18:08.15 | LuitvD | 1 lightyear = 4.70279985 × 1013 furlongs |
| 18:08.24 | Morgaine | Hehehe |
| 18:08.36 | LuitvD | s/1013/10^13/ |
| 18:08.43 | koen | no, 1/3 less calories as a normal year |
| 18:08.45 | buz | that must be some evil imperial measurement |
| 18:08.47 | *** join/#openmoko xerom (n=jack@81.193.134.90) |
| 18:08.47 | hrw | ~convert 1 lightyear to furlongs |
| 18:08.49 | buz | damn imperialists |
| 18:08.59 | LuitvD | lol? |
| 18:09.02 | Morgaine | Wow! |
| 18:09.03 | LuitvD | it does know |
| 18:09.04 | LuitvD | nice |
| 18:09.09 | buz | ~convert 1 furlong to meter |
| 18:09.27 | LuitvD | ~convert 1 attoparsec to millimeters |
| 18:09.28 | LuitvD | :) |
| 18:09.40 | Morgaine | Super :-) |
| 18:09.49 | LuitvD | 3,1 centimeter :) |
| 18:10.10 | LuitvD | I like these scripts :D |
| 18:10.11 | jaebird | good morning |
| 18:10.11 | jaebird | sliced my tire driving last night...lots of fun :( |
| 18:10.13 | jaebird | i was racing back to see if the code had been released :) |
| 18:10.15 | buz | 1 lightsecond to meter |
| 18:10.18 | koen | "source delayed by 3 days, let's play with the IRC bots" :) |
| 18:10.20 | buz | ~convert 1 lightsecond to meter |
| 18:10.38 | buz | ah it doesnt know lightseconds |
| 18:10.54 | LuitvD | ~convert 1 year to seconds |
| 18:11.09 | SpeedEvil | 31Ms, who doesn't know that. |
| 18:11.14 | Morgaine | I've never measured candy in parsecs before, but I guess it'll be useful one day to know a mars bar is an attoparsec long. |
| 18:11.27 | LuitvD | ~calculate 1 / 3.15569e+07 |
| 18:11.29 | LuitvD | ? |
| 18:11.29 | LuitvD | :P |
| 18:11.38 | LuitvD | darn, it doesn't do that |
| 18:11.41 | SpeedEvil | 310 millilitres in megaparsec barns |
| 18:11.50 | SpeedEvil | ~calculate 310 millilitres in megaparsec barns |
| 18:11.53 | LuitvD | megaparsec barns? |
| 18:11.56 | LuitvD | what? |
| 18:11.56 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 18:12.04 | SpeedEvil | It's another silly unit. |
| 18:12.04 | LuitvD | SpeedEvil: ~convert, that is |
| 18:12.15 | SpeedEvil | ~convert 310 millilitres in megaparsec barns |
| 18:12.33 | SpeedEvil | The barn is a unit used in particle physics. |
| 18:12.37 | LuitvD | ~convert 10 sheep to usd |
| 18:12.40 | LuitvD | :P |
| 18:12.56 | SpeedEvil | It's the interaction cross section measurement. |
| 18:12.58 | LuitvD | aww, unknown unit `sheep` :P |
| 18:13.03 | jaebird | ~convert 40 pigs to bride price |
| 18:13.08 | LuitvD | :P |
| 18:13.13 | LuitvD | nice one jaebird |
| 18:13.13 | SpeedEvil | It should have real-time sheep prices. |
| 18:13.14 | buz | i was about to convert camel to women ;) |
| 18:13.18 | Morgaine | Sheep! OK, now we're getting into deep conversion semantics |
| 18:13.33 | jaebird | heh |
| 18:13.43 | LuitvD | ~convert 1 second to usd |
| 18:13.47 | Morgaine | Let's try out apt's deeper social semantics then ... |
| 18:13.48 | LuitvD | (time is money) |
| 18:13.52 | Morgaine | ~convert circumference of Earth to blondes laid end to end |
| 18:13.56 | SpeedEvil | ~convert 1 iphone to neo1973 |
| 18:14.01 | LuitvD | wahahah |
| 18:14.03 | LuitvD | very nice |
| 18:14.05 | buz | ~convert money to time |
| 18:14.05 | *** part/#openmoko friedel (n=fwolff@thbh-ip-vsat-2-p254.vsat.telkom-ipnet.co.za) |
| 18:14.26 | SpeedEvil | And it's around 20 million. |
| 18:14.31 | SpeedEvil | (blondes) |
| 18:14.34 | jaebird | blondes...does not compute |
| 18:15.15 | LuitvD | ~convert 1 bullshit to conversation |
| 18:15.22 | Elrond | ~convert priesthoods to non-priesthoods |
| 18:15.36 | LuitvD | ~convert 1 nazi to jews |
| 18:15.37 | Elrond | *apt* Unknown unit `priesthoods' |
| 18:15.40 | LuitvD | (sorry for that) |
| 18:15.54 | LuitvD | apt> Unknown unit `nazi' |
| 18:15.57 | noidd | ~convert 1 hogshead to litres |
| 18:16.00 | jaebird | ~convert 5 beers to sexy chick |
| 18:16.04 | Elrond | ~convert usd to euro |
| 18:16.22 | noidd | ~convert 1 hogshead to pints |
| 18:16.32 | Morgaine | Hahaha, nice noidd |
| 18:16.36 | jaebird | :) |
| 18:16.41 | noidd | convert 1 pint to litres |
| 18:17.00 | jaebird | ~convert 1 pint to litres |
| 18:17.02 | LuitvD | ~convert 1 pint to liters |
| 18:17.04 | noidd | convert 1 gill to hogsheads |
| 18:17.05 | LuitvD | damn |
| 18:17.12 | LuitvD | heh, I win |
| 18:17.17 | noidd | ~convert 1 gill to hogsheads |
| 18:17.28 | Morgaine | Oh dear, it only knows one spelling of litre/liter |
| 18:17.29 | aloril2 | "free the books" -movement is needed |
| 18:17.32 | noidd | hmm, that's about right |
| 18:17.32 | LuitvD | ~convert 1 teaspoon to hogsheads |
| 18:17.52 | noidd | ~convert 1 attoteaspoon to hogshead |
| 18:17.53 | noidd | :-) |
| 18:17.55 | LuitvD | eating a hogshead with a teaspoon |
| 18:17.55 | jaebird | topic should be changed |
| 18:18.04 | jaebird | no new info |
| 18:18.09 | LuitvD | attoteaspoon :P |
| 18:18.09 | LuitvD | wow |
| 18:18.11 | LuitvD | nice one |
| 18:18.16 | aloril2 | even Neo1973 can hold over 10000 books |
| 18:18.42 | LuitvD | aloril2: with USB-host enabled even more :P |
| 18:18.45 | Morgaine | I like attoparsec. There's something so nice about measuring daily stuff in galactic measurements. |
| 18:18.57 | ml8128 | ~convert 350 USD to EUR |
| 18:19.03 | buz | makes you feel important doesnt it |
| 18:19.12 | LuitvD | Morgaine: yeah, really fun to measure things in a unit nobody understands :P |
| 18:19.17 | Morgaine | s/measurements/units/ |
| 18:19.25 | Elrond | ~convert 350 USD to EUR |
| 18:19.30 | ml8128 | ~convert 350 usd to eur |
| 18:19.46 | LuitvD | ~convert 350 usd to eur |
| 18:19.52 | Morgaine | buz: the opposite surely ... makes you feel so tiny and insignificant. |
| 18:19.52 | LuitvD | huh? |
| 18:19.55 | LuitvD | ~convert 350 usd to EUR |
| 18:19.59 | aloril2 | yeah, million or 10 million books |
| 18:20.02 | LuitvD | ~convert 350 usd to euros |
| 18:20.18 | Elrond | apt needs some food. |
| 18:20.22 | Morgaine | Thatcher has hacked apt!!! |
| 18:20.23 | LuitvD | guess so |
| 18:20.52 | SpeedEvil | ~convert counter to reality |
| 18:20.53 | LuitvD | 350 Euros = 455.56 U.S. dollars |
| 18:21.06 | LuitvD | wait |
| 18:21.10 | LuitvD | wrong conversion :D |
| 18:21.11 | Elrond | ~convert 350 usd to dem |
| 18:21.23 | LuitvD | 350 U.S. dollars = 268.899816 Euros |
| 18:21.28 | ml8128 | ~convert 350 USD + shipping to EUR |
| 18:21.32 | leventhal | ~convert 350 usd to cad |
| 18:21.37 | LuitvD | not an expensive phone |
| 18:21.38 | leventhal | ~convert 350 usd to cdn |
| 18:21.49 | LuitvD | ~convert 350 usd to cnd |
| 18:21.55 | LuitvD | ~convert 350 usd to sheep :) |
| 18:22.12 | *** part/#openmoko LittleIdiot (n=lite@2001:4d50:100:1:0:0:2:12) |
| 18:22.14 | leventhal | 350.00 US = 411.316 CAD according to xe.com |
| 18:22.14 | LuitvD | too bad, wanted to pay in sheep |
| 18:22.41 | Elrond | ~convert 350 usd to cauri |
| 18:23.05 | Elrond | Hmm, or how were those old thingies named? |
| 18:23.15 | LuitvD | ~convert 1 usd to meters of pennies laid end to end |
| 18:23.29 | jaebird | what is the first thing you are going to do when you get access to the src? |
| 18:23.44 | LuitvD | who? |
| 18:23.52 | jaebird | you plural |
| 18:23.56 | LuitvD | ah |
| 18:23.56 | jaebird | ya'll |
| 18:23.59 | Elrond | jaebird - watch pics on the wiki ;) |
| 18:24.08 | LuitvD | same |
| 18:24.10 | LuitvD | :) |
| 18:24.13 | jaebird | me too |
| 18:24.29 | LuitvD | s/ya'll/y'all/ |
| 18:24.32 | LuitvD | ;) |
| 18:24.34 | DukeOfURL | well, heh, see if it compiles! |
| 18:24.49 | Elrond | compile it for ia32. ;) |
| 18:25.03 | LuitvD | we can run it in QEMU right? |
| 18:25.09 | LuitvD | s/in/on |
| 18:25.52 | jaebird | LuitvD: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ya'll |
| 18:26.28 | LuitvD | jaebird: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=y'all |
| 18:26.49 | LuitvD | same thing |
| 18:27.19 | jaebird | right |
| 18:27.25 | LuitvD | ya'll How idiots spell y'all. |
| 18:27.27 | LuitvD | hehehe |
| 18:27.29 | jaebird | :) |
| 18:27.34 | LuitvD | good point |
| 18:27.58 | LuitvD | should have left that uncorrected then :P |
| 18:32.04 | Morgaine | The wiki page showing all the whacky things people do with their Neos should be fun. And a nice selling point too. |
| 18:32.21 | koen | "making phonecalls" 1000x |
| 18:32.34 | Morgaine | Hehe, except that ;-) |
| 18:32.57 | high-rez | counter |
| 18:32.57 | aloril | source: 2 days 17:27:02 (2.727 days); P0: 16.727; P1: 47.727; P2: 230.727 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (283) |
| 18:32.58 | high-rez | counters |
| 18:33.16 | noidd | no phone for my b'day :-/ |
| 18:33.24 | high-rez | i thought it was supposed to release today? |
| 18:33.26 | high-rez | (the source) |
| 18:33.33 | noidd | it was. |
| 18:33.38 | noidd | delay of 2 days. |
| 18:33.58 | high-rez | weak |
| 18:33.58 | Morgaine | That's OK, just delay your b/day ;-) |
| 18:34.19 | LuitvD | I hope I do have one before mine |
| 18:34.23 | high-rez | Wouldn't that require a parental fornication delay mechanism? |
| 18:34.40 | LuitvD | (I think I actually will, as my b'day is mid summer) |
| 18:35.05 | *** join/#openmoko dottedmag (i=bur@ccfit.nsu.ru) |
| 18:35.33 | Morgaine | "parental fornication delay" ... you've just invented a marketting feature buzzard for some product ;-) |
| 18:35.52 | Morgaine | LOL, "buzzard" ... buzzword |
| 18:36.36 | jaebird | valentines day? |
| 18:37.16 | jaebird | I can see it now..."sorry babe, can't go out with you tonight...gotta download" |
| 18:37.31 | LuitvD | :P |
| 18:38.06 | Morgaine | "Sorry babe, gotta parental fornication delay routine running ..." |
| 18:38.21 | jaebird | nice |
| 18:39.06 | jaebird | code up something nice! |
| 18:39.22 | LuitvD | who me? |
| 18:39.35 | jaebird | yeah |
| 18:39.41 | LuitvD | ah, maybe... |
| 18:39.56 | LuitvD | if anything comes to my mind that day... i definately will |
| 18:40.12 | jaebird | skim the wiki like its hot...then code it up |
| 18:40.17 | Morgaine | jaebird: chuck around some ideas for "nice" if you have, always useful |
| 18:40.47 | LuitvD | jaebird: that first thing will happen :P |
| 18:42.17 | LuitvD | there'll be no working on my robot on that day |
| 18:42.20 | LuitvD | :P |
| 18:42.33 | jaebird | i'm thinking jack bauer would love the neo |
| 18:42.55 | jaebird | it is amazing what his phone can do! |
| 18:43.09 | LuitvD | yeah, then he can get his sattelite images sent to his phone instead of his PDA :P |
| 18:43.47 | jaebird | "i'm sending you this dudes fingerprint that I just cut off by touching it to my touchscreen" |
| 18:43.57 | LuitvD | :P |
| 18:45.49 | LuitvD | can the neo work on a battery for 24 hours? :P |
| 18:46.08 | LuitvD | or does jack bauer always have a spare battery with him? |
| 18:46.09 | LuitvD | :P |
| 18:46.42 | spikebik1 | counter |
| 18:46.42 | aloril | source: 2 days 17:13:17 (2.718 days); P0: 16.718; P1: 47.718; P2: 230.718 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (284) |
| 18:47.49 | mjr | LuitvD, depends on how much Bauer uses it :] |
| 18:48.33 | mjr | of course, Jack Bauer has a USB solar charger, and can boost his Neo battery just by looking at it |
| 18:48.38 | LuitvD | heheheh |
| 18:49.44 | mjr | (good to hear about the 2 gig microSDs verifiably working; I think I can live with that ;) |
| 18:49.52 | mjr | (by the way :) |
| 18:50.41 | LuitvD | mjr: I can live with the fact that it supports usb-host... |
| 18:50.44 | LuitvD | :) |
| 18:51.05 | *** part/#openmoko lightyear (n=lightyea@p54876E4E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:51.09 | LuitvD | I'd love to connect my 20GB mp3 to a Neo |
| 18:51.46 | SpeedEvil | Are there 4G microsd? |
| 18:52.29 | LuitvD | yes |
| 18:52.54 | mjr | SpeedEvil, apparently there are or they are coming; it's unclear if the first gen neo supports them or can be made to support them with software |
| 18:53.20 | SpeedEvil | 2GB cards are comparatively cheap anyway. |
| 18:53.36 | mjr | yeah, I think I'll settle for 2G at this point anyway, even if 4s work |
| 18:53.41 | SpeedEvil | And you can keep a 20GB library in a keychain :) |
| 18:55.05 | Morgaine | Oh boy ... "I've heard of C++, what is the best way to get started? What is Python?" |
| 18:55.18 | Morgaine | Why am I reading that stuff anyway. Must be a masochist |
| 18:55.25 | LuitvD | heheh |
| 18:55.44 | LuitvD | Morgaine: where are you reading that? |
| 18:55.50 | *** join/#openmoko thedaniel (n=daniel@38.98.1.19) |
| 18:56.00 | Morgaine | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003195.html |
| 18:56.05 | Magon | Morgaine: yes, it seem that on list are some non-coders |
| 18:56.20 | SpeedEvil | Non-coders can turn into coders. |
| 18:56.28 | bipolar | Mono support looks interesting.... |
| 18:56.30 | SpeedEvil | All you need is the right compost, and to water often. |
| 18:56.36 | Morgaine | LOL |
| 18:56.45 | Morgaine | I'll have to remember that one ;P |
| 18:56.50 | Magon | but OE is hard even for coders |
| 18:57.10 | ajturner | Morgaine - yeah, the problem with him is he *wants* to help |
| 18:57.11 | LuitvD | OE? |
| 18:57.17 | ajturner | but just no idea of what to do |
| 18:57.20 | Magon | openembedded |
| 18:57.45 | ml8128 | bipolar: mono on the neo !? if it's optional i don't mind :P |
| 18:58.27 | LuitvD | on linux everything is optional right? |
| 18:58.53 | Magon | on Neo everything is optional...except of some kernel and some libc |
| 18:59.13 | LuitvD | Magon: what do you mean? |
| 18:59.34 | LuitvD | everything is optional... but taking away parts of the kernel will make it stop working... |
| 18:59.36 | Magon | you need to have some kernel |
| 18:59.44 | LuitvD | still... the kernel IS optional :P |
| 18:59.58 | Magon | i have in mind taking whole kernel :-) |
| 19:00.07 | ml8128 | LuitvD : i meant i hope it won't come by default :P |
| 19:00.12 | bipolar | ml8128: yeah, of cource it's optional :) |
| 19:00.13 | Morgaine | ajturner: there's no problem with such people at all, they genuinely want to help --- and that's great! The problem is the mismatch between the perception of coding as an "easy" thing (because it's easy to change text and type "make") and the reality, which is that it's messy and takes many years to do well. |
| 19:00.15 | Magon | yes, but without kernel you will have no calls :-) |
| 19:00.29 | LuitvD | ml8128: ah, well... I wonder what will come by default... |
| 19:00.55 | LuitvD | what kind of bootloader is it using? :P |
| 19:00.55 | ajturner | Morgaine - agreed, when someone says they know how to "code in HTML" it's best to point them in a simple direction |
| 19:01.06 | yacc | Morgaine: I wouldn't call randomly changing text software develepment ;) |
| 19:01.09 | LuitvD | can it dual-boot? |
| 19:01.20 | yacc | LuitvD: What should it dual boot into? |
| 19:01.28 | *** join/#openmoko Genesis (n=genesis@dev.aimao.org) |
| 19:01.37 | LuitvD | yacc: don't know... yet |
| 19:01.43 | LuitvD | maybe GPE? |
| 19:01.45 | Morgaine | yacc: aye, but the perception is there that it's easy. And as often as not, saying that it isn't is greeted with cries of "elitism". |
| 19:01.57 | [g2] | koen mickeyl did the OE environment get released ? |
| 19:02.07 | LuitvD | maybe just for people to test their own kernel? |
| 19:02.25 | Magon | LuitvD: it should use u-boot |
| 19:02.33 | LuitvD | Magon: thanks :) |
| 19:03.27 | yacc | Morgaine: Yeah, it is is elitism, because there are few professions where there are magnitudes of performance difference between poor and good performers ;) |
| 19:03.52 | Magon | and dual-boot, to me mean 2 kernels, just booting to gpe instead of moko is more like changing some conf file |
| 19:03.59 | suspence | That "What is Python?" line made me LOL, too. I'm not volunteering for anything, just trying to get the lay of the land, but is there a need for a 'community' project manager, to direct traffic and hook 'helpers' up with tasks they are suited to perform? |
| 19:04.28 | [g2] | suspence what are you interested in working on ? |
| 19:05.48 | suspence | Well, OE is over my head, but not only do I know what python is, I use it on an almost daily basis... |
| 19:05.56 | ajturner | suspence - there is nothing to traffic yet :) |
| 19:06.03 | *** join/#openmoko r4kY (n=Ladder_@ws42107.studby.hig.no) |
| 19:06.18 | suspence | I've just been hanging out here for a week or so, trying to figure out how things are shaping up. |
| 19:06.29 | Magon | the one who cannot code, but have some basic knowledge are very good for testing |
| 19:06.58 | [g2] | suspence are you familiar with embedded or Linux much ? |
| 19:07.38 | suspence | Linux, yes. Embedded is interesting, but I don't have any real world experience. |
| 19:07.52 | rox | man, i am totally dying to dig into the code |
| 19:08.04 | koen | [g2]: no, source + recipes has been delayed for a few days |
| 19:08.20 | [g2] | koen thx, NP |
| 19:08.27 | *** join/#openmoko Magon (n=Magon@213.155.227.226) |
| 19:08.28 | suspence | Is that the level where these first 50 devs come in, close the metal stuff? |
| 19:09.08 | [g2] | suspence it's my take as slight outsider to the whole process |
| 19:09.08 | suspence | Makes sense to give them hardware, if they will facilitate the hardware for higher level devs. |
| 19:09.40 | *** join/#openmoko maydaytx (i=johndoe@cpe-67-9-70-44.hot.res.rr.com) |
| 19:09.41 | Magon | do you thing kernel hacking will be nessesary to community, or is it done by FIC programrs? |
| 19:09.46 | LuitvD | what calendar/agenda program does openmoko use by default? |
| 19:09.47 | [g2] | I've been using OE for the last 2.5 years on the nslu2-linux project and have a users grasp on it |
| 19:10.14 | LuitvD | i'd like to write some Google Calendar implementation software, if possible :) |
| 19:10.35 | [g2] | the big event will be a in a couple days when the openmoko source/meta data is released |
| 19:10.38 | LuitvD | (like synchronising the google calendar and the Neo calendar, that stuff) |
| 19:10.40 | rox | LuitvD: sounds like a very good idea |
| 19:10.59 | Morgaine | yacc: hah! Only if you measure performance in lines of code/day, which is the worst possible metric. Unfortunately there is no way to teach good design in computing currently, so it's largely a combination of art and intuition and knowledge of precedents. And beginners don't have any of it. |
| 19:11.09 | LuitvD | rox: I had that idea for my pda for a while now... just came to my mind to use it for this :) took a while :P |
| 19:11.15 | LuitvD | rox: and thanks :) |
| 19:11.23 | maydaytx | is the code available? |
| 19:11.31 | [g2] | maydaytx couple days |
| 19:11.35 | maydaytx | ok |
| 19:11.39 | LuitvD | 2 or 3 days :) |
| 19:11.42 | LuitvD | see counter |
| 19:11.48 | rox | does anybody know, will the software stack that FIC guys are preparing already contain a port of gpg? |
| 19:11.50 | Magon | Morgaine: how long have you beed programing/ |
| 19:11.52 | Magon | ? |
| 19:11.52 | maydaytx | counter |
| 19:11.52 | aloril | source: 2 days 16:48:07 (2.700 days); P0: 16.700; P1: 47.700; P2: 230.700 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (285) |
| 19:12.06 | suspence | [g2]: The whole project really appeals to me, so I am looking for ways to contribute. |
| 19:12.08 | yacc | oMorgaine: yeah, but if you include the design quality into your "measurement", the differences between good and bad developers become even more pronounced ;) |
| 19:12.18 | Magon | rox: it will contain essencial stuff, probably no gpg |
| 19:12.28 | Magon | it is up to us to get it there |
| 19:12.31 | LuitvD | [20:09] <LuitvD> what calendar/agenda program does openmoko use by default? |
| 19:12.35 | LuitvD | :) |
| 19:12.36 | rox | Magon: are you familiar with what it will actually contain? |
| 19:12.51 | [g2] | suspence I think you'll find it a worthy endeavor :) |
| 19:12.59 | Magon | rox: just from mailling list..basic stuff |
| 19:13.15 | suspence | [g2]: I'm also trying to justify the cost of one of the first gen units, so I can start working with it. |
| 19:13.19 | [g2] | suspence your Python background will help understanding the bitbake tool which uses the meta data to build stuff |
| 19:13.27 | rox | Magon: one of the two tings i really need to do is integrate the mail app with gpg .. i guess i'll have to port gpg too |
| 19:13.50 | Morgaine | Magon: many decades, why? We're not talking about programming anyway, but about system/app design. Programming is just a tool. |
| 19:13.50 | weez | counter |
| 19:13.50 | aloril | source: 2 days 16:46:09 (2.699 days); P0: 16.699; P1: 47.699; P2: 230.699 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (286) |
| 19:14.09 | [g2] | koen nod, it's not required, but certainly doesn't hurt :) |
| 19:14.09 | LuitvD | get a room you two :P |
| 19:14.12 | Magon | to me it seems like bitbake is based on gentoo portage |
| 19:14.38 | koen | *was* based |
| 19:14.44 | rox | suspence: well ... sean said they will be an upgrade programme for early adopters, especially those in the dev community |
| 19:14.46 | koen | no scrap of portage code remains |
| 19:14.57 | koen | otherwise it would be too 1337 to work with |
| 19:16.05 | SpeedEvil | I don't think it can get away. |
| 19:16.14 | Morgaine | Elrond, has LuitvD pinched our chocolate? |
| 19:16.52 | *** join/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 19:17.11 | *** part/#openmoko behdad (n=behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM0012c9c84bc4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 19:18.08 | mikesh | i have question to programing topic, i have never code or compile something for embedded, how difficult is port some code to device like neo? |
| 19:18.26 | koen | most stuf doesn't need porting at all |
| 19:18.27 | SpeedEvil | Well - fundamentally, it's X. |
| 19:18.38 | SpeedEvil | xeyes, xlander all run. |
| 19:19.22 | rox | mikesh: if the code is written in a reasonably portable manner, little or no porting is required |
| 19:19.25 | suspence | rox: upgrades sounds like a fair deal. take the early adoption fear out of the equation. |
| 19:19.40 | Morgaine | It's just a plain 32-bit Linux, nothing special from a programmer's standpoint. Just has physical limits which you need to bear in mind, that's all. |
| 19:19.51 | SpeedEvil | And not much CPU. |
| 19:20.05 | mikesh | great :) |
| 19:20.27 | Elrond | Morgaine - You make me learn new english... What's the exact meaning of "pinch out"? |
| 19:21.09 | Morgaine | Elrond: our, not out ;-) Pinch == nick, steal |
| 19:21.35 | LuitvD | :) |
| 19:21.53 | LuitvD | nearly six minutes of chocolate :D |
| 19:22.26 | koen | time for some tea |
| 19:22.40 | Elrond | *arg* Need letter recognition upgrade. ;) |
| 19:22.57 | *** join/#openmoko Shoragan (n=shoragan@datenfreihafen.org) |
| 19:23.03 | LuitvD | anyways... |
| 19:23.07 | LuitvD | [20:09] <LuitvD> what calendar/agenda program does openmoko use by default? |
| 19:23.12 | LuitvD | still want to know :) |
| 19:23.21 | koen | openmoko calendar |
| 19:23.23 | SpeedEvil | pinch out is a gardening term. |
| 19:23.30 | koen | with eds-dbus as backend |
| 19:23.32 | SpeedEvil | To remove a bud. |
| 19:23.33 | LuitvD | koen: ah... like that tells me a lot :P |
| 19:23.37 | Elrond | Morgaine - We should confiscate it back from LuitvD ;) |
| 19:23.44 | koen | and funambol as syncml conduit |
| 19:23.50 | LuitvD | eds-dbus... *googling |
| 19:24.07 | Morgaine | Elrond: does he look well defended? |
| 19:24.14 | LuitvD | ah, evo ... right? |
| 19:24.19 | SpeedEvil | ah. |
| 19:24.32 | rox | koen: i'm not really familiar with eds, but does it support blacklisting? or does it have blacklisting-minded capabilities? |
| 19:24.38 | LuitvD | Morgaine: don't even dare to try that :P |
| 19:24.48 | koen | rox: blacklisting in a calendar? |
| 19:24.55 | LuitvD | wahah |
| 19:25.05 | rox | koen: it's integrated with the address book, isn't it? |
| 19:25.18 | Morgaine | You know, the biggest problem with this delay is that we've got to come up with 3 more days of bad jokes, role playing, and reading between the lines. ;-))) |
| 19:25.22 | LuitvD | what... the mail part of evo? :P |
| 19:25.23 | koen | eds is the addressbook/calendar backend |
| 19:25.32 | greghunt | black list booking appointments on days that have an 's' in them :] |
| 19:25.37 | koen | LuitvD: no, the mail part is camel |
| 19:25.44 | Elrond | Morgaine - *lol* :-) |
| 19:25.45 | LuitvD | okay |
| 19:25.52 | rox | koen: i thought eds was the backend for all ... address book, calendar ... |
| 19:25.54 | Elrond | Morgaine - No, he looks like normal subject ;) |
| 19:26.28 | LuitvD | role playing... haven't seen that here yet :) |
| 19:26.54 | Elrond | LuitvD - You're in the middle of a light version. ;) |
| 19:27.06 | LuitvD | Elrond: ah, I forgot :) |
| 19:28.05 | *** join/#openmoko danilos (n=danilo@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br) |
| 19:28.05 | Morgaine | Elrond: we could try the planet-blasting hyperspace beam on him then .... but it might melt the chocolate |
| 19:28.14 | Elrond | Morgaine - Don't we have the laser-cooling for that thing in place yet? |
| 19:28.38 | Morgaine | Elrond: I forgot to pay for the colling license renewal :-(((( |
| 19:28.43 | Morgaine | cooling* |
| 19:28.48 | rox | i need it for the planet-blasting hyperspace countering spell |
| 19:28.51 | LuitvD | nothing like that will ever come near my super-conducting magnet-shields |
| 19:29.10 | LuitvD | (also cooling my chocolate) |
| 19:29.10 | rox | s/space/space beam/ |
| 19:29.25 | Morgaine | *giggle* he thinks we're going *through* the shield .... |
| 19:29.33 | Elrond | Okay, we first need to quench his magnets. :) |
| 19:29.41 | LuitvD | Morgaine: HEHEH |
| 19:30.12 | Morgaine | counter |
| 19:30.13 | aloril | source: 2 days 16:29:47 (2.687 days); P0: 16.687; P1: 47.687; P2: 230.687 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (287) |
| 19:30.13 | Elrond | (quenching super-conducting magnets are fun. ;o) (except it's expensive.)) |
| 19:30.24 | LuitvD | counter strike |
| 19:30.35 | Morgaine | http://www.purepwnage.com/episodes.html |
| 19:30.37 | LuitvD | damn, aloril doesn't reply to that :P |
| 19:31.00 | SpeedEvil | Quenching the magnet is not usually fatal. |
| 19:31.10 | *** join/#openmoko Eludias (n=eludias@wingding.demon.nl) |
| 19:31.18 | SpeedEvil | All that happens is it warms up a bit, and may go thump. |
| 19:31.41 | SpeedEvil | With massive boiling of the coolant. |
| 19:32.02 | LuitvD | destroying my superconducting megamagnets will disable the cooling around my chocolate |
| 19:32.22 | LuitvD | you'll have about 43 minutes before the chocolate gets soft |
| 19:32.49 | LuitvD | I don't think you are in range to retrieve the chocolate in time |
| 19:33.27 | rox | agh, i'll try to stop being a whiny prick |
| 19:34.26 | Morgaine | rox: well there's always plain OE for the impatient ;-) |
| 19:35.04 | rox | Morgaine: what i want to do is add features and integrate ... i really need the openmoko stuff for that |
| 19:35.39 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Yes. If the coolant is He, it goes all into gas form. Quite fast. Very impressive. ;) |
| 19:35.42 | rox | Morgaine: the two things on my list are nice big fat featureful blacklisting and integrating gpg with the sms/mailapp |
| 19:36.37 | Morgaine | I'm not sure that the danger of a split in OM was actually real ... people will hold off if asked. Everyone knows a fork is bad. But for the sake of a few days, I think it makes sense to wait. Less work overall. |
| 19:37.08 | SpeedEvil | And very expensive. |
| 19:37.40 | Elrond | SpeedEvil - Right. He is expensive. |
| 19:37.58 | Morgaine | Expensive in community time as well, although it's somewhat intangible. But we'd have extra works to bring the two strands together. |
| 19:39.10 | Elrond | Yep. forks are bad. |
| 19:39.43 | Elrond | People are looking bad at you, saying bad things behind you, etc. |
| 19:40.17 | Morgaine | Just ask Djikstra, those philosophers did bad things with forks. |
| 19:40.34 | rox | Elrond: yeah, i remember reading about netbsd ... if it weren't for the openbsd fork, they might be a lot more relevant now |
| 19:41.06 | Elrond | rox - Yeah, that's one example. |
| 19:42.01 | *** join/#openmoko pvanhoof (n=pvanhoof@d54C0EE14.access.telenet.be) |
| 19:42.03 | Elrond | Morgaine - Okay... I'll confuse LuitvD by quenching his magnets, you use the beam with a middle enegery, so the choco does not melt? ;) |
| 19:42.08 | rox | and a very good one too ... those two projects have been eating away each other's developers ... it alsotook them a long while to start sharing code |
| 19:42.46 | LuitvD | koen: is evo stripped much ? |
| 19:42.50 | Elrond | rox - Do you know, how long it took them to share code? |
| 19:43.03 | LuitvD | koen: does it still support EPlugins for example? |
| 19:43.14 | rox | Elrond: a few years at least |
| 19:43.39 | Elrond | Okay, that's still acceptable. I know projects, that haven't done it after 6 years. |
| 19:43.41 | rox | Elrond: if you count the start of openbsd when theo was kicked out |
| 19:43.58 | Morgaine | Elrond: I'm not worried about the melting, as I'll polarize the beam to be extra cold on the chocolate side and hot on the other. What worries me though is trigger his defence AI -- COCOICE. |
| 19:44.35 | Morgaine | I've been on the bad side of COCICE before ... and it's not pleasant. |
| 19:44.42 | Elrond | COCOICE? |
| 19:45.10 | Morgaine | Yeah, real bad mocha-fueled ICE AI. |
| 19:45.29 | LuitvD | coco ice t? |
| 19:45.38 | LuitvD | :P |
| 19:46.06 | Elrond | Morgaine - That's why I want to confuse his AI by quenching the magnets. ;) |
| 19:46.12 | *** join/#openmoko jiffyjeff (n=jjacobs@64.128.15.226) |
| 19:47.01 | rox | go on guys, this is turning into good material for my standup :P |
| 19:47.39 | Elrond | rox - You need to pay Morgaine and me license fees. |
| 19:48.03 | buz | damn proprietary jokes |
| 19:48.15 | rox | Elrond: i don't pay license fees to politicians, why should i pay you? |
| 19:48.17 | Morgaine | Elrond: don't think it'll work, COCOICE v1.93 was decaffed without announcement in the ChangeLog ... but I've got a contact in the steering committee. |
| 19:48.52 | koen | LuitvD: it's not evo, it's eds-dbus |
| 19:49.26 | Elrond | Morgaine - Okay... we need to work on that... I'll get some real food for better thinking. (my cook finished the dinner ;) ). |
| 19:49.29 | LuitvD | koen: ah, okay |
| 19:49.33 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-72-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 19:49.36 | Morgaine | Ditto ;-) |
| 19:50.13 | LuitvD | koen: does it happen to be Embedded EDS? |
| 19:50.31 | *** join/#openmoko greghunt (n=greg@88-108-72-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 19:51.58 | Morgaine | Hey, wasn't February the "Write a novel in a month" month? Think we've got an outline ... ;-) |
| 19:53.30 | *** join/#openmoko swissy (n=swissy@84-74-83-99.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 19:58.24 | *** join/#openmoko goxboxlive (n=goxboxli@9.80-202-160.nextgentel.com) |
| 19:58.29 | *** join/#openmoko parag0n (n=parag0n@popeshoe.gotadsl.co.uk) |
| 19:59.29 | Morgaine | Writing novels seems to be like computing though. Ideas are 2-a-penny, but designing a coherent and elegant structure and implementing it in a way that the reader/user appreciates is very hard, and rare. Let alone the subsequent maintainer ... and novelists don't have that problem. |
| 19:59.30 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@wireless-11.media.mit.edu) |
| 20:02.06 | koen | heh |
| 20:02.17 | koen | the gnome dudes are saying my whining isn't productive |
| 20:02.24 | *** join/#openmoko dyrne (i=pike@server1.freeshells.ch) |
| 20:02.31 | koen | *after* it delivered what I wanted |
| 20:02.41 | mickeyl | :D |
| 20:03.19 | koen | #define unproductive productive |
| 20:03.20 | mickeyl | the rest of the mail worries me more than that |
| 20:03.20 | Morgaine | That's fanboys for ya. 3rd up against the wall come the revolution ;-) |
| 20:03.20 | mickeyl | "gtk+ is old and fat" |
| 20:03.49 | mickeyl | sounds like the cairo team plans a revolution |
| 20:03.54 | mickeyl | perhaps an own toolkit |
| 20:03.56 | mickeyl | wouldn't surprise me |
| 20:03.59 | koen | mickeyl: the biggest problem with gtk+ is its problem of API stability |
| 20:04.28 | koen | qt tosses api out of the window every release, so it can leap forward everytime |
| 20:04.45 | *** join/#openmoko dilinger (n=dilinger@wireless-11.media.mit.edu) |
| 20:05.25 | koen | (2.10 breaks api with floating references, which sucks) |
| 20:05.40 | Morgaine | API instability is usually a sign that the API is too low level for the project's goals. |
| 20:07.15 | koen | mickey|dinner: I'd like to see a toolkit that takes full advantage of xcb |
| 20:07.51 | koen | <- xcb fanboy |
| 20:08.59 | Morgaine | Imagine if the syscalls in Unix apps actually linked directly to kernel routines ... half of user space would break on every minor release. |
| 20:09.17 | Morgaine | Mmmm, mocha |
| 20:09.39 | *** join/#openmoko zipola (n=zipola@zip.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 20:11.17 | cworth | koen: hi there |
| 20:11.29 | koen | hey cworth |
| 20:11.56 | koen | cworth: any ETA on 1.3.14? |
| 20:12.10 | cworth | koen: If nothing else, I can say that I'm pleased that the cairo community has made a good impression on you. |
| 20:12.40 | cworth | (And for what it's worth, I'm also very interested in XCB---it doesn't hurt that Bart and Jamey are local and good friends either...) |
| 20:13.08 | cworth | koen: It absolutely has to happen today---it's been too long. |
| 20:13.27 | koen | 3 weeks :) |
| 20:14.22 | koen | 1.3.12 was pretty well received, it make gtk+ a lot snappier on arm |
| 20:21.25 | Elrond | 1.3.12 of what? |
| 20:21.34 | CM | cairo |
| 20:21.42 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 20:22.03 | CM | Elrond: cworth is the cairo master ;) |
| 20:22.41 | Elrond | CM - Okay. I'll know, where to put my curses, when cairo breaks. ;o))) |
| 20:23.45 | cworth | Elrond: Yeah, you can definitely blame most all the bugs (and there are plenty) on me. |
| 20:23.47 | *** join/#openmoko Flusher- (i=flusher@filer.euroserv.com) |
| 20:24.11 | CM | cworth: Still, great work. Thanks :) |
| 20:24.31 | Elrond | cworth - Huh, that was not meant for real. No pun intended. :) |
| 20:24.48 | cworth | koen: I don't know that 1.3.14 will affect embedded as much---but having the locking fixes for multi-threaded cairo usage, and having PDF output with selectable text should be very well-received improvements. |
| 20:25.24 | cworth | Elrond: No worries. I'm still smiling. :-) |
| 20:25.35 | koen | cworth: I'm still trying to find volunteers to benchmark between the 'splash' and 'cairo' poppler backends |
| 20:26.06 | koen | since http://www.irextechnologies.com/products/iliad uses gtk+ and poppler |
| 20:26.44 | LuitvD | koen: the eds-dbus that openmoko uses... is it the one in Embedded Evolution Data Server? |
| 20:27.16 | koen | LuitvD: "embedded eds" is the marketing name for it |
| 20:27.51 | LuitvD | koen: okay, then I'll start to take a look at that... trying to write a useful plugin for that :) |
| 20:28.36 | Elrond | What's eds-dbus anyway? |
| 20:28.50 | Elrond | (hmm... i probably should google... except google does not like me.) |
| 20:30.04 | LuitvD | the embedded port of evo |
| 20:30.17 | koen | Elrond: Evolution Data Server without corba/orbit |
| 20:30.25 | koen | LuitvD: no, not evo, eds |
| 20:30.32 | LuitvD | ah, sorry :P |
| 20:31.01 | Elrond | koen - Ahh... all that new cool stuff I kept ignoring. ;) |
| 20:31.41 | koen | if only gconf dropped corba.... |
| 20:32.04 | Elrond | *duck* write your own gconf. ;o) |
| 20:32.18 | koen | gconf-dbus already exists |
| 20:32.26 | koen | but it's stuck at 2.6.14.something |
| 20:32.28 | *** join/#openmoko _-InFeRnO-_ (n=KeKeKe@cable-84-43-138-4.mnet.bg) |
| 20:32.39 | LuitvD | koen: eds-dbus isn't that diffrent from eds is it? If it isn't, I can just write an EDS plugin, and use that on eds-dbus too |
| 20:32.55 | _-InFeRnO-_ | no src yet ;( |
| 20:32.56 | koen | LuitvD: that's the idea |
| 20:33.00 | _-InFeRnO-_ | anyone knows why |
| 20:33.46 | Elrond | _-InFeRnO-_ - http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html |
| 20:34.22 | Elrond | (brought to you by faq::why-delay. ;) ) |
| 20:35.00 | Elrond | koen - gconf-dbus comunicates via dbus, or what? |
| 20:35.10 | koen | Elrond: yes, via dbus instead of corba |
| 20:35.22 | koen | corba needs orbit2, which is pretty huge |
| 20:35.30 | _-InFeRnO-_ | 3 days?!??!?!??!!?!?!? |
| 20:35.33 | _-InFeRnO-_ | that's horror |
| 20:36.07 | buz | someone shoudl convince toshiba to port openmoko to the G900 |
| 20:36.22 | buz | that one is ultra neat |
| 20:37.13 | _-InFeRnO-_ | OpenMoko will be OSS, thus we could port (noooooo) OM to anything |
| 20:37.26 | _-InFeRnO-_ | people here hate the word port |
| 20:37.40 | buz | in that case porting is even correct |
| 20:37.42 | koen | that's actually proper use of 'port' :) |
| 20:37.59 | _-InFeRnO-_ | yes |
| 20:38.03 | _-InFeRnO-_ | but it annoys people |
| 20:38.12 | buz | technically i guess it would be more of a linux than an openmoko port |
| 20:39.09 | koen | buz: and gsmlib and adjusting the gui for a different resolution/dpi |
| 20:39.41 | buz | well it's 3inch wvga |
| 20:39.46 | buz | dpi shouldnt be THAT different |
| 20:40.09 | SpeedEvil | 300dpi |
| 20:40.22 | SpeedEvil | (neo) |
| 20:40.42 | buz | i know |
| 20:40.47 | buz | the toshiba is likely a bit higher even |
| 20:40.48 | koen | 285 |
| 20:41.57 | Elrond | Huh, really. 285 dpi is a lot. |
| 20:42.18 | Elrond | Can people with normal eyes see the pixels there? |
| 20:42.25 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 20:42.26 | buz | probably not |
| 20:42.31 | SpeedEvil | At 15cm. |
| 20:43.02 | *** join/#openmoko muelas (n=sam@21.Red-83-50-31.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 20:43.04 | buz | i want a 300dpi 20" screen |
| 20:43.19 | *** join/#openmoko mey (n=orbit@c-66-30-249-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 20:43.32 | Elrond | buz - Run normal firefox on that. You wont see anything with all that text-as-images. ;) |
| 20:43.58 | koen | I guess toolkits will grow a pixel doubler for images |
| 20:43.59 | buz | i dont care for most sites who use crap like that |
| 20:44.00 | morricone | then use opera which supports functional scaling ;) |
| 20:44.17 | buz | khtml supposedly will get that "soon" |
| 20:44.30 | morricone | i just saw the commit |
| 20:44.37 | Elrond | morricone - Is opera free as in speach now? |
| 20:44.54 | koen | sort off |
| 20:44.56 | morricone | I can't beat that argument ;) |
| 20:45.03 | koen | you can download the opera sdk |
| 20:45.45 | Elrond | koen - To cite a few words from morricone: "I have this thing"... of not installing binary-only-crap. ;) |
| 20:45.57 | *** join/#openmoko kkito (n=offs@155.Red-83-56-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 20:46.09 | koen | Elrond: amen to that |
| 20:46.15 | kkito | hello :) |
| 20:46.38 | buz | mhh |
| 20:46.47 | buz | then get me twinview working without nvidia blob |
| 20:47.39 | buz | that and vmware is about the only binary only thing i have |
| 20:47.41 | muelas | does anyone know how one qualifies as a developer to be able get hold of a "Neos" in March? |
| 20:47.47 | Elrond | buz - Just don't buy hw, that needs binary-only-crap. ;) |
| 20:47.52 | buz | anyone paying 350$ |
| 20:48.06 | buz | Elrond: when i bought this notebook, all of them did |
| 20:48.23 | Elrond | Oh, laptops. ;) |
| 20:48.34 | muelas | buz, oh right, and expected to be able to handle undocumented features ? |
| 20:48.51 | Elrond | buz - vmware... did you try virtualbox? |
| 20:49.07 | buz | muelas: what? i knew i could use the nvidia drivers |
| 20:49.17 | buz | they were about the only halfway decent ones back then |
| 20:49.37 | buz | can i run winwoes in virtualbox? |
| 20:50.16 | muelas | .. as in it may be buggy .. |
| 20:51.07 | buz | i theoretically could run it in kemu |
| 20:51.11 | buz | but that's slow as molasses |
| 20:51.43 | *** join/#openmoko terrex (n=terrex@84-122-65-39.onocable.ono.com) |
| 20:51.48 | Elrond | buz - windows should work in vbox. At least w2k does reportedly. (a friend uses it.) |
| 20:51.54 | benJIman | If you have a recent intel/amd cpu you can run windows in xen |
| 20:52.02 | buz | i dont have VT |
| 20:52.22 | benJIman | CPU with VT is cheaper than vmware workstation |
| 20:52.23 | buz | mhh virtualbox has screenshots of vista install |
| 20:52.38 | buz | yes however vmware player is free as in beer |
| 20:53.16 | Elrond | vmware server also is free as in beer. ;) |
| 20:53.27 | Elrond | vbox is free as in beer and speach. ;) |
| 20:53.44 | Genesis | qemu rulez |
| 20:54.01 | buz | can virtualbox use vmware images |
| 20:54.03 | thresh | confirmed |
| 20:54.29 | Elrond | buz - Don't know. |
| 20:54.55 | buz | ah well i'll try it after my exams are over |
| 20:59.18 | *** join/#openmoko LuitvD (n=LuitvD@beigetower/luitvd) |
| 20:59.39 | LuitvD | can't believe fedora just crashed on me :S |
| 21:05.15 | buz | mhh so there are 4 times as many alcoholics in europe than in the us |
| 21:05.19 | buz | interesting |
| 21:06.31 | CM | Does that survey count russia to belong to europe? ;) |
| 21:06.51 | buz | that is actually something i deduced from that mailing list post |
| 21:07.04 | LuitvD | i think france takes a big part. of that.. |
| 21:07.13 | buz | but alas, i wont go all correlation is not causation on him |
| 21:08.45 | buz | heck how many people below 21 drink alcohol in the us? 90%? |
| 21:09.01 | koen | 100%? |
| 21:09.07 | Clint | 150% |
| 21:09.25 | buz | how old are they when they go to college? 19? |
| 21:09.50 | *** join/#openmoko esden (n=esden@p54996AA3.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:09.56 | leventhal | 17 and 18 |
| 21:09.57 | koen | buz: worse, they learn to drive before they learn to drink |
| 21:10.09 | buz | no they dont |
| 21:10.17 | leventhal | americans got my fraternity to go dry, which annoys me :/ |
| 21:10.18 | buz | not according to what i'm told they dont learn it |
| 21:10.27 | buz | they just do it |
| 21:10.32 | LuitvD | :P |
| 21:11.12 | buz | a dry fraternity? |
| 21:11.18 | buz | isnt that some sort of oxymoron |
| 21:11.35 | *** join/#openmoko edistar (n=edwinloc@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 21:12.33 | leventhal | well the house is dry |
| 21:13.04 | *** join/#openmoko cprf_ (n=rzinkov@oss-staff.rutgers.edu) |
| 21:13.14 | leventhal | which means no more parties but everyone turns a blind eye if you bring in a beer |
| 21:13.34 | *** join/#openmoko wbx (n=wbx@gprs-pool-1-027.eplus-online.de) |
| 21:14.46 | *** join/#openmoko T2 (n=tv@adsl-75-57-24-111.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:15.44 | buz | hell has just frozen over, yet another time: "Access Linux Platform for mobile devices goes gold" |
| 21:19.37 | SuN | Diversity! |
| 21:20.00 | edistar | can someone maybe give me a fill in about the situation with the neo at the moment, what is the status of the hardware, are the developers still building? |
| 21:20.37 | SuN | Hardware is finished, as far as I know. |
| 21:21.03 | edistar | thanks :) |
| 21:21.19 | edistar | a lot of people developing software for openmoko yet? |
| 21:21.32 | SuN | Everyone's waiting for the souce. |
| 21:21.47 | edistar | btw. is there any connection to the maemo (nokia) platform? |
| 21:22.05 | thedaniel | well, anyone could start on a simple gtk app, run it in xoo |
| 21:22.09 | SuN | They both use GTK, that's about it. |
| 21:22.19 | SuN | And maybe a handful of other apps. |
| 21:22.49 | koen | and eds-dbus |
| 21:23.09 | edistar | okey, they have the same processor, I thought that that would be a bit handy |
| 21:23.10 | edistar | .. |
| 21:23.26 | koen | same processor? |
| 21:23.38 | edistar | the n700 and the neo |
| 21:23.40 | koen | the moko doesn't have an omap1710 nor omap2420 |
| 21:23.47 | SuN | I guess he means architecture. |
| 21:23.56 | edistar | yes, sry |
| 21:24.15 | SuN | Well, I can see some stuff being ported from one machine to the other without that many effort. |
| 21:24.21 | SuN | DId I say ported? |
| 21:24.23 | SuN | :D |
| 21:24.26 | koen | s3c2410 is armv4, omap1710 is armv5, omap 2420 armv6 |
| 21:24.35 | SuN | So generally, arm. |
| 21:24.36 | koen | for instruction set |
| 21:25.17 | edistar | okey, I am still a beginner, so sry for any stupid posts by me |
| 21:25.20 | SuN | This ACCESS linux thing doesn't look completely busted, but emulating the old PalmOS GUI seems rather... pointless. |
| 21:25.47 | thresh | PalmOS GUI rocks. |
| 21:26.09 | SuN | It most definitely does not! |
| 21:26.56 | edistar | ;) |
| 21:28.44 | _-InFeRnO-_ | I prefer the SonyEricsson gui |
| 21:29.30 | jaebird | Vista gui also does not rock |
| 21:29.44 | jaebird | but that is off topic! |
| 21:29.47 | koen | elvis rocks |
| 21:29.57 | jaebird | koen sometimes rocks |
| 21:32.45 | *** part/#openmoko edistar (n=edwinloc@ip503ddd09.speed.planet.nl) |
| 21:33.31 | _-InFeRnO-_ | btw, I wonder how does the phone get GPRS and GSM conectivity |
| 21:34.22 | koen | via a TI GSM module |
| 21:34.28 | jaebird | thru an antenna :) |
| 21:35.20 | _-InFeRnO-_ | hm, and how the module is connected to the SoC (probably dumb question) |
| 21:35.27 | _-InFeRnO-_ | i mean, interface |
| 21:36.08 | pH5 | the ti chipset (an arm7tdmi) is connected via uart. |
| 21:36.14 | _-InFeRnO-_ | a ha |
| 21:36.17 | _-InFeRnO-_ | thanks |
| 21:37.14 | LuitvD | a seperate arm chip for recieving GSM data? |
| 21:37.24 | LuitvD | or is that the main chip? |
| 21:37.32 | koen | the bluetooth chip is probably arm7tdmi as well |
| 21:37.52 | LuitvD | for expandability? |
| 21:38.03 | Elrond | LuitvD - our cpu is armv4, and the rest of the hardware happens to run on other arms, that we cdon't control. |
| 21:38.09 | LuitvD | (next generations of the protocols and stuff? |
| 21:38.24 | koen | arm7 is probably cheaper than coming up with your own asic |
| 21:38.32 | LuitvD | yeah, I know |
| 21:38.44 | LuitvD | but can it be upgraded? the firmware? |
| 21:39.00 | Elrond | The gsm module's firmware can be upgraded. |
| 21:39.05 | LuitvD | so that the GSM chip can understand HDSPA or something |
| 21:39.14 | _-InFeRnO-_ | i wonder how would a candybar-style version of the phone look |
| 21:39.14 | Elrond | But only thru some weird technique, I understand. |
| 21:39.30 | _-InFeRnO-_ | (i dislike using stylus) |
| 21:39.35 | koen | Elrond: via the headset socket |
| 21:39.52 | LuitvD | :| |
| 21:39.56 | Elrond | koen - Yep. Which I don't understand. |
| 21:40.04 | LuitvD | strange... |
| 21:40.25 | Elrond | koen - Is the headset socket connected to the audio _and_ the {gsm module's upgrade port} ? |
| 21:40.34 | koen | Elrond: I guess so |
| 21:40.47 | koen | (just repeating stuff I heard frm FIC dudes) |
| 21:41.05 | Elrond | Okay, you probably heard the same as I. ;) |
| 21:41.20 | Elrond | And this design confuses me... analog and digital on the same socket. |
| 21:41.55 | mjr | you know, there is this technology where digital data is encoded into analog form :) |
| 21:41.56 | koen | it probably detects resistance and does the appropriate stuff |
| 21:42.07 | Elrond | It means, that I could do a remote firmware upgrade by playing the firmware to a headset using neo-user?! |
| 21:42.08 | mjr | (but I dunno) |
| 21:42.13 | Magon | it will be cool to grain control over other ARMs and have little cluster in phone |
| 21:42.23 | koen | Elrond: maybe, it probably has some handshaking |
| 21:42.31 | mey | Elrond, this is how the ipod shuffle (current gen) is currently setup |
| 21:42.34 | koen | Elrond: I hope it doesnt support FOTA |
| 21:42.43 | LuitvD | or it has some seperate pins for programming the chip |
| 21:43.07 | Elrond | What's FOTA? |
| 21:43.14 | koen | Flash Over The Air |
| 21:43.20 | koen | remote firmware upgrades |
| 21:43.32 | koen | aka carrier evilness |
| 21:43.45 | Elrond | Ahhh. |
| 21:44.06 | Elrond | koen - As I understood the fic dudes, the headset port is the only port. |
| 21:44.28 | koen | and a usb port |
| 21:44.31 | koen | and a jtag port |
| 21:44.39 | _-InFeRnO-_ | if my provider would pay the 3G trafic for FOTA, it's fine |
| 21:44.46 | Elrond | port, that allows firmware upgrade of gsm modules. |
| 21:45.09 | Elrond | as in: no fota. |
| 21:49.17 | LuitvD | maybe it's better that way... |
| 21:49.45 | LuitvD | I think the native arm programming pins are just routed out to the headset connector... |
| 21:50.06 | LuitvD | so that if flashing the chip fails, you can try again... |
| 21:50.09 | Elrond | Yep. It allows upgrading the gsm firmware in the FIC retail shop, without them needing to touch _your linux_. ;) |
| 21:50.43 | LuitvD | and it makes sure that flashing by software isn't possible ;) |
| 21:50.47 | *** join/#openmoko BenC (n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins) |
| 21:51.03 | LuitvD | (or you should have an ARM programmer, and the right connector pinout) |
| 21:51.18 | LuitvD | and, most importantly, the firmware :) |
| 21:52.43 | Elrond | tihi. |
| 21:53.17 | Elrond | We have the audio codec at the headset port, so we can sample the uploaded firmware while the neo is gsmfirmware-upgraded in the retail shop. ;o) |
| 21:53.40 | Elrond | (of course, it's heavy undersampling. We need many samplings to get the bits of the firmware ;o) ) |
| 21:54.49 | ml8128 | the open phone seems less open suddenly, if we cannot touch the firmware... :P |
| 21:56.48 | LuitvD | ah well, many device manufacturers keep the firmware for themselves |
| 21:57.16 | *** join/#openmoko PhilKC (i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc) |
| 21:57.17 | Elrond | ml8128 - It was clear from the start, that the gsmmodule is closed. |
| 21:57.25 | Elrond | ml8128 - And I can understand that part. |
| 21:57.47 | LuitvD | completely? |
| 21:58.04 | LuitvD | I can see the motivation... but understand the reason... no... |
| 21:58.13 | ml8128 | Elrond: oh, you meant gsm firmware ? seems i missed that part being afk :P *reads back the log* |
| 21:58.16 | LuitvD | I don't fully understand why |
| 21:58.52 | LuitvD | ml8128: yes, the firmware of the chip responsible for picking up the GSM/GPRS/etc. signal |
| 21:58.54 | Stephmw | LuitvD: it's not legal to distribute a hackable gsm stack for use on public networks... too, too easy for someone to make a stack that doesn't comply with the gsm spec |
| 21:59.08 | Elrond | LuitvD - It's the same story with the wifi stuff. frequency regulations, etc. |
| 21:59.18 | thresh | hehe. |
| 21:59.26 | LuitvD | hmm... okay, I didn't say anything :) |
| 21:59.28 | thresh | who cares for freq regulations. |
| 21:59.29 | Stephmw | :) |
| 21:59.30 | LuitvD | enaugh reasons |
| 21:59.46 | thresh | how could _that_ be the problem of closing the driver? |
| 21:59.47 | Stephmw | LuitvD: of course, what you do in the privacy of your own handset... |
| 22:00.14 | so_solid_moo | intel just dumped their non-free freq. reg. daemon for ipw3945abg ,,, |
| 22:01.18 | Elrond | so_solid_moo - dumped as in what? |
| 22:01.18 | so_solid_moo | Elrond: dumped as in, no longer needed in their latest driver |
| 22:01.47 | Elrond | Ahh. |
| 22:01.57 | Elrond | So now anybody can use any frequency?! |
| 22:02.04 | Elrond | How did they get that through? |
| 22:02.27 | cjb | so_solid_moo: well, they moved it into their firmware. |
| 22:02.33 | cjb | not the same as dumping the requirement. |
| 22:02.54 | LuitvD | hmm, something weird is happening to my permissions here... (my linux installation) ... leaving now... |
| 22:03.12 | LuitvD | if you don't see me again for a couple of days... then my permissions fucked up :) |
| 22:03.30 | LuitvD | (firefox doesn't get any permissions in my homedir :S ) |
| 22:03.40 | LuitvD | bye y'all |
| 22:04.19 | *** join/#openmoko hamada (n=hamada@192.18.191.51) |
| 22:04.21 | so_solid_moo | cjb: where do you specify the regulatory domain to the firmware? |
| 22:05.19 | mjr | heh, somebody wants to render 2d polygons and bmps using opengl on the neo |
| 22:09.22 | *** join/#openmoko hyakuhei_ (n=rob@omg.plz.dont.haxx.us) |
| 22:10.51 | cjb | so_solid_moo: dunno. |
| 22:18.12 | *** join/#openmoko gabaug (n=gburt@207-229-164-50.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com) |
| 22:19.36 | *** join/#openmoko n (n=n@BSN-210-239-233.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 22:22.20 | *** part/#openmoko hamada (n=hamada@192.18.191.51) |
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| 22:24.13 | *** join/#openmoko eeejay (n=eitan@ducati.linux-phreak.biz) |
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| 22:39.32 | Elrond | Morgaine - Stop me from trying to fix people again.... :-| |
| 22:41.19 | Stephmw | Elrond: but it's so much fun watching the fireworks! |
| 22:41.27 | Stephmw | and *comforts too |
| 22:41.47 | woglinde | !counter |
| 22:42.27 | Ganneff | counter |
| 22:42.28 | aloril | source: 2 days 13:17:32 (2.554 days); P0: 16.554; P1: 47.554; P2: 230.554 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (288) |
| 22:42.33 | Elrond | Stephmw - Not, if you like 60% of what those people do. Then it's no fun trying to fix unfixable people. |
| 22:43.26 | Kero | noone's unfixable. but it might take quite some effort. |
| 22:44.52 | Elrond | Kero - Like traveling over and using "planet-busting hyperspace beam weapons" ? ;o) |
| 22:45.16 | Kero | so... permanent :) |
| 22:47.15 | SuN | http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/12/nokias-e90-communicator-launched/ |
| 22:47.30 | Elrond | Kero - Well, it can be used as a threatening thing ;) |
| 22:49.27 | Kero | perhaps the ppl need so much fixing they'll yield to the threat :P |
| 22:51.29 | *** join/#openmoko eshep (n=eric@32.236.109.219.ap.yournet.ne.jp) |
| 22:52.31 | *** join/#openmoko guerby (n=guerby@gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 22:52.59 | *** part/#openmoko jiffyjeff (n=jjacobs@64.128.15.226) |
| 22:54.46 | Elrond | Kero - *lol* |
| 23:28.18 | *** join/#openmoko DukeOfURL (n=chatzill@vc7-1-39.dsl.netrack.net) |
| 23:33.41 | *** join/#openmoko rwhitby (n=rwhitby@nslu2-linux/rwhitby) |
| 23:35.51 | DukeOfURL | Hello... |
| 23:37.15 | Elrond | Night people. |
| 23:37.18 | Elrond | Night Morgaine |
| 23:41.25 | DukeOfURL | Anyone here know Motorola cell phones? |
| 23:42.13 | DukeOfURL | I need a phone where I can load a Java app |
| 23:42.13 | DukeOfURL | Have access to GPS |
| 23:42.25 | DukeOfURL | Be able to display a UI to the user |
| 23:42.46 | DukeOfURL | Be able to connect with a server. |
| 23:43.00 | DukeOfURL | Inexpensive phone. |
| 23:43.51 | SpeedEvil | Dunno. |
| 23:44.10 | DukeOfURL | Can't wait until September+ |
| 23:44.18 | SpeedEvil | September2D? |
| 23:44.28 | DukeOfURL | 2D? |
| 23:44.33 | SpeedEvil | Typo. |
| 23:44.53 | DukeOfURL | End of September, but that date has gotta slip... |
| 23:44.58 | SpeedEvil | Oh. |
| 23:45.12 | SpeedEvil | I was concntrating on end of marchish. |
| 23:45.43 | DukeOfURL | I have a customer that won't wait |
| 23:46.15 | DukeOfURL | Strike while the iron is hot, and all that... |
| 23:47.12 | SpeedEvil | Ah. |
| 23:47.40 | SpeedEvil | Striking customers with hot irons does tend to put them off in most cases though. |
| 23:48.17 | DukeOfURL | heh |
| 23:57.00 | *** join/#openmoko maydaytx (i=johndoe@cpe-67-9-70-44.hot.res.rr.com) |
| 23:57.10 | *** join/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |
| 23:59.22 | DukeOfURL | is there an irc for motorola cell phones? |
| 23:59.34 | *** part/#openmoko summatusmentis (n=summatus@72.168.202.219) |