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| 01:03.25 | *** topic/#openmoko-cdevel is Openmoko Community Developers Channel - discussion on all firmware images, packages and software | SHR: http://shr-project.org | #hackable1 | #openmoko-debian | #qtmoko | #android-on-freerunner | CIA notifications in #freesmartphone.org | Chan Logs: ~logs & http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko-cdevel.txt | Newsflash: type '~nf' |
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| 01:57.01 | fling | omg |
| 04:12.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? |
| 04:24.53 | fling | are you putting gta04-like mobo into n900 case? |
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| 04:32.26 | Sicelo | yes |
| 04:34.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 04:34.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's wrong with it? |
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| 10:49.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, again a kind reminder: there's a new'ish GTA04 project in its early kickoff phase, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142. Registering on tmo is a lightweight process if you want to vote and/or contribute there. Of course you as well can express your interest on GoldeliCo's wishlist: https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Wishlist&referer=GTA04%20Custom (at least that's what I think you can do there, after |
| 10:49.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | registering) Don't forget to mention "Neo900" resp "GTA04-N900" as subject you're interested in. Sweetspot is probably ~700EUR |
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| 11:33.42 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: that's a silly poll |
| 11:34.32 | kerio | because i'm willing to pay 500, but i'm even more willing to pay 300 |
| 11:50.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: sorry, that's a silly comment since we are interested what's the maximum price customers are willing to pay |
| 11:51.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't think anybody will refrain from buying when device gets cheaper than what s/he been willing to pay at maximum |
| 11:53.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we can start production when either (according to dos1's list which for Neo900 is 100EUR or more off) we have 100 users willing to pay 600 or more, or when we have 1000 users willing to pay 500 or more |
| 11:55.31 | dos1 | let's wait for list straight from Nikolaus, as that one was for GTA04 with some upgrading and new plastic case plans |
| 12:00.25 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: sad there's no possibility for changing votes in the poll, people's opinions may (and probably will) change over time |
| 12:01.43 | dos1 | (and I'd probably get just a board, but selected maximum price I'd pay at all... bleh :/) |
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| 12:15.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry that's vBulletin. And I think this poll is just to attract interest, the real thing has to happen on Nikolaus' wishlist in the end anyway |
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| 12:16.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I pondered quite some time if I should do a poll at all, but knowing tmo users I thought it's probably a brilliant way to attract more interest |
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| 12:24.16 | dos1 | ok |
| 12:36.29 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: i've just sent an e-mail to mls about Neo900 |
| 12:36.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | mls? |
| 12:37.17 | dos1 | maillists |
| 12:37.18 | dos1 | :D |
| 12:37.58 | dos1 | to openmoko community, openphoenux community and HNS himself |
| 12:39.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | mhm, good |
| 12:39.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | please see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:JOERG |
| 12:40.48 | dos1 | ok |
| 12:48.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | great mail :-) |
| 12:50.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | please keep in mind that momentum on maemo community and particularly on tmo is a rather volatile thing |
| 12:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | needs to get a push twice a day, or it will fade away and topic gets obsolete like yesterday's newspaper |
| 12:52.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | when i asked for donations to keep maemo.org infra alive, we drummed up like 2500EUR during 2 weeks, another 2000 during the 7 months since |
| 12:53.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | despite that fact that I unambiguously explained that recurring donations are way more important than one time huge gifts |
| 12:54.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe the analogy is a poorly chosen one, but anyway... |
| 12:54.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | expect for maybe <10% of those excited people still to be around in 4 weeks |
| 12:55.11 | dos1 | yeah, as usual |
| 12:55.50 | dos1 | it still shows that there's at least some momentum to be gained from current N900 owners |
| 12:55.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we need to hook them *now* ;-D |
| 12:56.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | toldya :-) |
| 12:56.21 | dos1 | yup, that's why I'm writing those lengthy posts and e-mails :D |
| 12:56.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | huge userbase that easily gets excited when *anything* promises a future for fremantle |
| 12:58.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | during last council elections they asked me what's my perspective for fremantle's future in maybe 2 years or whatever. Damn that been one flaming when I told there *is* no future for fremantle, it at best stays static since there's no new device in vicinity |
| 12:59.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | still I got I think ~80% of votes for council ;-P |
| 13:09.43 | radekp | DocScrutinizer05: binary compatibility with maemo is nice idea, i always wondered if i could launch maemo on GTA04, but was lazy to try ;-) |
| 13:10.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | radekp: we need to do that now, rather soonish |
| 13:10.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | radekp: see http://www.omappedia.com/wiki/Maemo_Getting_Started |
| 13:12.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | nothing lures in future customers better than a youtube video with a demonstration of a running system |
| 13:12.05 | radekp | ahh cool |
| 13:21.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | the benefit of maemo fremantle: it has known-to-work power management all the way from userland apps down to special kernel and device drivers |
| 13:22.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | we might need to swap some device drivers to meet board config of GTA04(-N900) but I think we then can debug and test those few very thoroughly |
| 13:23.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | the suspend-to-RAM concept you followed so far might have its very own nasty problems with power management |
| 13:24.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | I strongly suggest to ditch it |
| 13:24.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | on OMAP platform it's silly |
| 13:26.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | maemo fremantle *somehow* supports it, but for sure has issues (like keyboard not working anymore, and BB5 modem waking up the system anyway after a few seconds) |
| 13:27.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw I think the kbd issue can get fixed by prepending the suspend command with "sleep 5;" |
| 13:27.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | so you can release the enter key befor device goes to sleep |
| 13:28.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | nevermind, a maemo system on a OMAP platform doesn't need nor want suspend-to-ANYTHING |
| 13:30.49 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: why not? |
| 13:31.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | why? |
| 13:31.14 | fling | what is gta04-n900? |
| 13:31.21 | fling | is it a mobo replacement for n900? |
| 13:31.23 | kerio | fling: like the gta04, but for the n900 |
| 13:31.28 | fling | oh! |
| 13:31.40 | fling | I have not tried n900 yet. |
| 13:31.52 | kerio | hopefully it's going to be fully compatible with maemo fremantle, software-wise |
| 13:31.53 | fling | If it't keyboard good… |
| 13:31.59 | kerio | it's actually not that bad |
| 13:32.03 | kerio | but ctrl is in an awkward position |
| 13:32.14 | kerio | so stuff like ctrl+1 requires two hands |
| 13:32.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-P |
| 13:32.25 | kerio | er, no, ctrl+1 is fine, ctrl+2 requires two hands |
| 13:32.26 | fling | I use weird xmodmap :P |
| 13:32.39 | kerio | you can use it on the n900! |
| 13:32.47 | fling | great! |
| 13:32.52 | kerio | it runs x11 |
| 13:32.56 | fling | so it is another mobo, right? |
| 13:33.04 | kerio | it's nothing, yet |
| 13:33.09 | fling | ok. |
| 13:33.17 | fling | but it is perfect :D |
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| 13:34.31 | kerio | buy a n900, they're fairly cheap atm |
| 13:35.07 | fling | kerio: the price will go up soon… :P |
| 13:35.24 | radekp | DocScrutinizer05: well i was using suspend to ram because there is nothing better for GTA04 :) |
| 13:36.49 | radekp | DocScrutinizer05: i can turn off the LCD and let the cpufreq set CPU to lowest frequency, but then it's somewhere around ~100mA |
| 13:38.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | CPU should zero-clock |
| 13:38.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | and notick kernel |
| 13:39.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | means the whole thing absolutely freezes when no task pending |
| 13:39.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | better than suspend to RAM |
| 13:39.37 | radekp | but i guess that needs some patches that are not upstream? |
| 13:39.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | even better: it's kinda automagic |
| 13:40.01 | slyon | DocScrutinizer05, dos1: hey! your hype seems to work, you got me excited about "Neo900". And as i read you got Nikolaus on board as well, nice! |
| 13:40.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually it been nikolaus mailing me who started that whole hype I drummed up |
| 13:41.15 | slyon | oh wow! i wouldn't have expected this from nikolaus |
| 13:41.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | I suggested Neo900 several times during last few months, but it wasn't until Nikolaus uttered interest in the idea that I dared to start a hype about it |
| 13:42.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | despite I been well aware of the "synergy" effects |
| 13:42.17 | kerio | radekp: with the display turned off, the n900 uses up about... 10mA? |
| 13:42.25 | kerio | without anything using up the cpu |
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| 13:42.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | rather 5mA |
| 13:43.12 | kerio | don't be silly, nobody uses 2g anymore |
| 13:43.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is in line with product specs for standby time on 2G |
| 13:43.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh!!! |
| 13:43.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | or then 7mA |
| 13:43.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | for 3G |
| 13:44.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder if we can get there on GTA04, since aiui it has modem linked up via USB |
| 13:44.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | USB is greedy |
| 13:45.22 | kerio | jesus :s |
| 13:46.30 | jake42 | it's rather hard to source umts-modems which fit onto the board |
| 13:46.38 | jake42 | that's why iirc |
| 13:46.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know |
| 13:46.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | just saying |
| 13:47.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | back for GTA03 USB wasn't an option neither for OM nor for the consultants of Siemens who sold us the MC75i |
| 13:48.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | luckily that MC75i had serial fast enough for EDGE |
| 13:48.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and USB we could ramp up for bulk data transfer |
| 13:49.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and all three interfaces (2 * serial, 1 * USB IIRC) were equal in functionality |
| 13:50.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask Mickey about the details, he knows his muxer ;-D |
| 13:51.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | we might find a similar dual-channel solution for the option-modem maybe |
| 13:52.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | or just maaaaybe it's even possible to suspend USB when not active, and resume in a fraction of a second |
| 13:52.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway OMAP musb core eats some 60mA just for being enabled |
| 13:52.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | terible POS |
| 13:54.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a reason why OMAP SoC uses McBSP everywhere |
| 13:54.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | glorified SPI I think |
| 13:56.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, this wee Nikolaus and me will review the schematics of N900 and GTA04 side by side, and list all the differences and possible problem topics |
| 13:56.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | week even |
| 13:57.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | then we know more about general feasibility of Neo900 project ;-) |
| 13:57.03 | fling | n900 schematics? |
| 13:57.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 13:57.14 | fling | where are they? |
| 13:57.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | google is your friend ;-) |
| 13:57.38 | jake42 | yeah, wonder if all the current chips on gta04 will fit into a n900 |
| 13:57.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course there are also well (un-)known locations where to get everything |
| 13:58.00 | fling | it is on maemo wiki :P |
| 13:58.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | the schematics? I doubt |
| 13:58.29 | fling | http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic |
| 13:58.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | but wiki has a few links |
| 13:58.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I hope they still work for you |
| 13:59.03 | fling | and this > http://www.smdcode.com/detail/service-manuals/mobile-phones/nokia/nokia-n900-rx-51-service-schematics-v2.pdf |
| 13:59.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks ok |
| 14:11.31 | radekp | DocScrutinizer05: i think on GTA04 you can suspend USB, the modem generates interrupt on incoming call/SMS |
| 14:11.42 | rah | "the whole device is 100% open, you get all the schematics, datasheets and everything" |
| 14:11.45 | rah | DocScrutinizer05: dafuq? |
| 14:12.16 | radekp | DocScrutinizer05: QtMoko event closes the /dev/ttyHSO port during suspend and then reopens it |
| 14:12.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's not relevant for maemo |
| 14:13.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it also is not relevant for 60mA wasted energy on musb core during device active |
| 14:14.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm not even 100% convinced that it will shutdown musb core incl the adjacent 2 or 3 power domains correctly |
| 14:15.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's at least a power domain for: bus from CPU to musb core; musb core itself; ULPI bus from musb core to PHY |
| 14:16.01 | rah | DocScrutinizer05: "what we won't hand out are the gerber files to feed the fab with" |
| 14:16.16 | rah | DocScrutinizer05: will you hand out every file except the gerber files? |
| 14:16.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | rah: do you find better ways to annoy me? |
| 14:16.34 | rah | DocScrutinizer05: this is a reasonable question I think |
| 14:16.54 | rah | DocScrutinizer05: there are many files that Schaller won't hand out |
| 14:17.09 | rah | DocScrutinizer05: if this is going to be a Schaller product then you won't get those files either |
| 14:17.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | which are in paricular? |
| 14:17.18 | rah | eagle schematics files |
| 14:18.39 | rah | DocScrutinizer05: if you're not going to hand them out then your post is fallacious |
| 14:19.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I said all i had to say, in my answer to this dispute on ML |
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| 14:19.18 | rah | jesus |
| 14:19.31 | rah | you don't deny that your post contains a lie? |
| 14:19.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | also please note that i'm neither Nikolaus nor any employee of GoDeliCo |
| 14:19.57 | rah | ok |
| 14:20.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't deny that you annoy me to death |
| 14:20.23 | rah | how are you going to produce the gerber files? |
| 14:20.40 | rah | are you going to create a design yourself? |
| 14:21.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | how are you going to stop annoying me. You seem to have a habit to do, since move of OM infra |
| 14:21.39 | rah | why don't you put personal issues aside and we can focus on the work at hand? |
| 14:21.51 | rah | which is: producing a free phone |
| 14:21.52 | rah | right? |
| 14:22.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | why don't you stop being a ass |
| 14:22.35 | rah | you don't want to work together to produce a free phone? |
| 14:22.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw it seems sth is wrong with my ignore list, I could bet on that |
| 14:23.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, tbh I rather don't "work together" with you, dude |
| 14:23.48 | rah | the feeling is mutual but I'd much rather have a free phone than a massaged ego |
| 14:23.53 | rah | *shrug* |
| 14:23.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | you been a severe PITA back when it came to keeping OM infra alive, and nothing in your way to pester any annoy people seems to have changed since |
| 14:24.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | I much rather do useful work than discussing shit with you |
| 14:25.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and again, *nobody* owes you *anything*, I told you several months (years?) ago and I repeat that now |
| 14:27.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | for reducing your medical care invoice: replace "gerber" by "project" when reading my post |
| 14:28.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and keep in mind that I can't speak for GolDeliCo |
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