| 00:24.09 | *** join/#openjtag kay2 (n=key2@gob75-2-81-56-64-17.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 00:24.10 | kay2 | hey |
| 00:24.22 | kay2 | anyone knows a cheap pci analyzer |
| 00:24.23 | kay2 | ? |
| 00:24.43 | ka6sox-office | nope |
| 00:24.50 | ka6sox-office | they are all expensive |
| 00:24.52 | ka6sox-office | or slow |
| 00:25.37 | kay2 | ka6sox-office: I need to reverse engeneer a driver from a winmodem card |
| 00:25.43 | kay2 | what would be the easyest way to do it ? |
| 00:59.18 | prpplague | kay2: eh gad |
| 00:59.29 | prpplague | kay2: why waste your time on that? |
| 00:59.59 | prpplague | ~lart kay2 |
| 01:00.16 | prpplague | kay2: please spend your skills and time on something more valuable |
| 01:00.46 | prpplague | kay2: just expressing my opinion, feel free to disregard |
| 01:01.04 | kay2 | prpplague: for asterisk |
| 01:01.11 | kay2 | so it would also work with those card |
| 01:01.15 | prpplague | hmm |
| 01:01.46 | prpplague | although admirable, doesn't that promote the usage of those? |
| 01:01.57 | prpplague | kay2: why not concentrate on usb modems or such |
| 01:02.00 | prpplague | ?? |
| 01:03.43 | AchiestDragon | thought the idea for the "softmodem" winmodem thing was they could patent the software principle used as the hardware was basicaly opne in the chip data sheets |
| 01:04.56 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: what you mean ? |
| 01:05.20 | prpplague | kay2: keep the algo in the software, and not on the hardware datasheet |
| 01:05.24 | AchiestDragon | and tend to agree theres better things like proper usb modems to work on rather than technolagy that was purpously designed to only provide windows compatability |
| 01:06.11 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: evening |
| 01:06.14 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: the thing is that those Conexant modem are the most popular because of their price |
| 01:06.25 | kay2 | (8eur each) |
| 01:06.29 | AchiestDragon | the hardware algorithom for it , its theory is public knolage , but there is a good chance that the software version of it has a patent |
| 01:06.31 | prpplague | kay2: agreed, they are plentiful here |
| 01:06.32 | kay2 | and you can find them everywhere |
| 01:06.41 | AchiestDragon | maybe |
| 01:06.52 | prpplague | kay2: but so is prostitution |
| 01:07.10 | prpplague | kay2: not sure i want to find easier ways for them to ply their trade |
| 01:07.19 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: you're talking about winmodem or the conexant one |
| 01:07.19 | kay2 | ? |
| 01:07.32 | AchiestDragon | the winmodem |
| 01:07.51 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: so basically the Chip is just a cpu, and the driver upload its microcode into it ? |
| 01:08.06 | AchiestDragon | no |
| 01:08.27 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: so what is it ? like a sound card and the PC does the job ? |
| 01:08.37 | AchiestDragon | like some of the tone decoder is actualy in software |
| 01:08.37 | prpplague | kay2: no, basically the cpu is just an A2D |
| 01:08.39 | AchiestDragon | ye |
| 01:08.48 | prpplague | kay2: the cpu does the analysis of the info |
| 01:09.08 | prpplague | kay2: sorry, more of a codec, |
| 01:09.37 | kay2 | prpplague: what kind of analysis |
| 01:09.56 | prpplague | kay2: picture it this way |
| 01:10.08 | AchiestDragon | it actualy needs a fair bit of cpu time , and think you may have problems if not a rt kernel |
| 01:10.24 | prpplague | kay2: a man who does not know japanese is taking on the phone to someone who does speak japanesse |
| 01:10.45 | prpplague | kay2: he repeats what is said to someone who does speak japanese |
| 01:11.01 | prpplague | kay2: the person on the phone has no idea what is being said |
| 01:11.08 | prpplague | kay2: just relaying the sounds |
| 01:11.38 | prpplague | kay2: its the person who speaks japansee who is dealing with the actual language |
| 01:11.41 | kay2 | prpplague: so like I said, it's just like a sound card, it bufferes the sound and send it to the PC |
| 01:11.52 | kay2 | and the proc does the fast fourrier transform and deduce the values and stuff |
| 01:12.01 | prpplague | kay2: a high specialized sound card, but yes |
| 01:12.19 | AchiestDragon | in a full hardware modem it would convert serial data to a set of multiple simultanius tones , the other ends decodes them back in to data |
| 01:12.26 | kay2 | prpplague: so it should not be that hard for me to use it as a Voice modem |
| 01:12.51 | prpplague | kay2: well you have to remember there are two major things that are working against you |
| 01:13.01 | AchiestDragon | the win modem just gets data on what tones are there and has to sort out what that means and convert it back into data |
| 01:13.13 | prpplague | kay2: 1st the manufacturers have gone out of their way to keep you from doing anything without them |
| 01:13.36 | kay2 | prpplague: for what reason ? |
| 01:13.38 | prpplague | kay2: 2nd they are cheap which means they have cut corners at every chance putting more burden on you |
| 01:13.46 | prpplague | kay2: money |
| 01:13.55 | AchiestDragon | and 2 for cost thay remove as mutch hardware that thay can get away with and do it in software |
| 01:14.06 | kay2 | prpplague: why the manifacturer wouldnt want his cheap to work under linux |
| 01:14.10 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: exactly |
| 01:14.22 | prpplague | kay2: uh "hi? |
| 01:14.38 | kay2 | prpplague? |
| 01:14.44 | prpplague | kay2: uh "hi! i'm linux can you work with me? ok give me some money and i will!" |
| 01:14.47 | prpplague | kay2: sorry type |
| 01:14.50 | prpplague | kay2: sorry typo |
| 01:15.09 | AchiestDragon | kay2 , extra cost of linux drivers , and linux is not rt normaly so it will miss bits that need a set timing structure for the software |
| 01:15.09 | prpplague | kay2: business is business is business |
| 01:15.39 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: rt u mean real time ? |
| 01:15.52 | AchiestDragon | and as there selling for windos then compatablilaty or function with oter os is not a problem |
| 01:15.58 | AchiestDragon | rt = real time yes |
| 01:16.28 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: it's not a plus for them if I write a driver letting them sell their chips ? |
| 01:16.41 | AchiestDragon | no |
| 01:16.45 | kay2 | why not |
| 01:16.49 | kay2 | more people would use it |
| 01:17.01 | AchiestDragon | because theres probalbay problems in patents |
| 01:17.14 | kay2 | patent ? like what? |
| 01:17.28 | prpplague | kay2: going OSS is not as easy as you would think |
| 01:17.52 | prpplague | kay2: like an algo for compression |
| 01:18.01 | prpplague | kay2: corps are patent happy these days |
| 01:18.06 | AchiestDragon | kay2: in france patents would not be a problem atm |
| 01:18.29 | kay2 | oh u mean that the law that doesnt let you reverse engineer? |
| 01:18.42 | kay2 | saying it's in intelectual property ? |
| 01:18.49 | prpplague | kay2: no, even if you did reverse engineer, the method and concept is patented |
| 01:19.02 | AchiestDragon | but the algorithom thay need to use to get the decode timing right for it is only real time opperating system compatable |
| 01:19.17 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: and windows is RT ? |
| 01:19.37 | prpplague | kay2: for instance, the method of obtaining a barcode scan on a handheld device by the means of a trigger is patentend by symbol technologies |
| 01:19.42 | AchiestDragon | it is like doing a ethernet serial to parallel driver by bit banging the paralell port |
| 01:19.57 | prpplague | kay2: any company that uses a trigger to do barcoding has to pay to symbol |
| 01:20.18 | kay2 | ok |
| 01:20.34 | prpplague | kay2: life is not as simple as just doing coding |
| 01:20.43 | kay2 | so that's the reason they don't want someone to use write a driver for it ? |
| 01:20.53 | kay2 | because if they open the source then anyone could use the technology ? |
| 01:20.54 | prpplague | kay2: more than likely |
| 01:21.07 | prpplague | kay2: and they would be open to law suits |
| 01:21.26 | prpplague | kay2: i.e. for the same reason there are no OSS sd/mmc drivers currently |
| 01:21.48 | kay2 | prpplague: why ? |
| 01:21.49 | AchiestDragon | the algorithom that a modem uses to do that is patented , but normal its in the chip , but doing it in software is also pattented ,and that patent restricts it to windows only |
| 01:21.53 | kay2 | the sd/mmc protocol ? |
| 01:22.12 | AchiestDragon | the mmc os ok but the sd is not in linux |
| 01:22.15 | prpplague | kay2: because the specification has been under patent and trademark protection |
| 01:22.46 | kay2 | prpplague: so If i want to write an application under linux that uses the SD protocol, i have to pay SD? |
| 01:22.47 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: techinically its not wasn't legal until around the first of april |
| 01:22.57 | AchiestDragon | because the sd licence does not aloow for a viewable source code but you can do a binary distribution if you pay them for licenice |
| 01:23.09 | prpplague | kay2: you could do it, but if you sold it, they would have to get their cut |
| 01:23.23 | kay2 | prpplague: and if I open source it |
| 01:23.33 | prpplague | kay2: major law suit |
| 01:23.44 | kay2 | prpplague: even if I'm in france ? |
| 01:23.49 | prpplague | yea |
| 01:23.57 | prpplague | kay2: they have gone after people for less |
| 01:24.07 | kay2 | prpplague: ok so for example, if I take a cisco IP phone |
| 01:24.08 | AchiestDragon | is still wondering that has theres no software patent laws in eu that there may endup beeing a split in the distros |
| 01:24.21 | kay2 | which is not SIP, and I rever engineer it to make it work with asterisk |
| 01:24.26 | kay2 | I can get sued |
| 01:24.32 | prpplague | http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT6640645071.html |
| 01:24.37 | prpplague | kay2: good read |
| 01:24.39 | kay2 | because it was their own protocol and not meant for being used with asterisk |
| 01:24.39 | kay2 | ? |
| 01:25.13 | prpplague | kay2: if you used a protocol to comminicate with the hardware that is covered under patent, yes you could |
| 01:25.43 | prpplague | kay2: software dev is a mine field in the last few years |
| 01:25.56 | kay2 | prpplague: even for private use ? |
| 01:26.00 | AchiestDragon | well its a bit vague over patents here ,, like this machine in xine will play , dvds most of windows codecs , and the like |
| 01:26.01 | kay2 | prpplague: or if I sell it |
| 01:26.13 | prpplague | kay2: i regularly have to go to court over gpl violations, and defend my reverse enginerering |
| 01:26.36 | prpplague | kay2: most corps tend to over look private use |
| 01:26.58 | kay2 | prpplague: so if tomorrow, I write a driver for SD |
| 01:27.02 | kay2 | and I post it anonymously |
| 01:27.12 | kay2 | they're done... |
| 01:27.13 | AchiestDragon | not over look it but legaly canot do anything about private use |
| 01:27.20 | prpplague | kay2: you are ok, since on april 1st the SD associate released the spec |
| 01:27.34 | prpplague | kay2: but prior to that |
| 01:27.36 | kay2 | prpplague: on the conexant modem... |
| 01:27.40 | prpplague | kay2: you would have been in trouble |
| 01:27.48 | prpplague | kay2: potential problems |
| 01:28.02 | kay2 | prpplague: so you mean that linux is not gonna make new drivers because of that |
| 01:28.02 | AchiestDragon | take someting like moding xboxes , you canot do it for someone here , but thay canot stop you doing it to your own |
| 01:28.04 | prpplague | kay2: need to do your research and talk to legal cousel |
| 01:28.54 | prpplague | kay2: yes, there are many restrictions, but as linux and OSS gain momentum, more groups understand the need for opening specifications |
| 01:29.14 | prpplague | kay2: one of the primary reasons the sd specs were opened was due to presssure from fsf |
| 01:29.16 | AchiestDragon | they will sue you for telling someone how to do it also but not for beeing the one beeing told how to |
| 01:29.38 | AchiestDragon | good over sd |
| 01:30.06 | AchiestDragon | think they finaly realise the pressure and can see thay need it for the future |
| 01:30.15 | kay2 | fsf: free software fondation |
| 01:30.16 | AchiestDragon | whay episode |
| 01:30.27 | AchiestDragon | what episode |
| 01:30.29 | prpplague | kay2: you have to understand, the change in culture and business practices does not come quickly |
| 01:30.36 | prpplague | kay2: OSS is a new way of thinking |
| 01:30.41 | kay2 | OSS ? |
| 01:30.51 | prpplague | kay2: Open Source Software |
| 01:30.53 | AchiestDragon | open source software |
| 01:31.04 | xl0 | Open Source Software |
| 01:31.09 | prpplague | kay2: you have to think about it in the terms of the changes after the dark ages |
| 01:31.30 | prpplague | kay2: when the scientific method of sharing knowledge became accepted practice |
| 01:31.43 | prpplague | kay2: between the old days of monestiers |
| 01:31.44 | AchiestDragon | bit like getting burnt at the stake for saying the earth was round |
| 01:31.49 | kay2 | prpplague: but tomorrow, if there was a new graphic card very famous for gaming and patented, no one could use it under linux |
| 01:31.53 | prpplague | kay2: that had books chained to shleves |
| 01:32.05 | prpplague | kay2: possible yes |
| 01:32.32 | prpplague | kay2: the only thing keeping corps from doing that is the power of money |
| 01:32.36 | AchiestDragon | prpplague: what episode of dr who ? |
| 01:32.40 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: hehe |
| 01:32.47 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: girl in the fireplace |
| 01:33.00 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: just burned it to vcd |
| 01:33.00 | AchiestDragon | kool its good that one |
| 01:33.08 | kay2 | prpplague: and what if the patent is only on the V92 protocol and not on the Voice |
| 01:33.09 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: cool you in the UK? |
| 01:33.12 | AchiestDragon | yes |
| 01:33.21 | AchiestDragon | seen it on sat |
| 01:33.25 | AchiestDragon | and sunday |
| 01:33.30 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: ahh, i have to get it from p2p |
| 01:33.36 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: bastard, hehe |
| 01:33.45 | AchiestDragon | and from p2p also |
| 01:33.48 | AchiestDragon | :) |
| 01:33.50 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:34.22 | kay2 | prpplague: well look at Samba |
| 01:34.36 | kay2 | prpplague: they reverse the NTFS from MS that was pattented to use with MS |
| 01:34.42 | kay2 | prpplague: they reverse the NTFS from MS that was pattented to use with unix |
| 01:35.04 | kay2 | according to you, they're not able to do that anymore |
| 01:35.12 | prpplague | kay2: yes and terpstra has paid the price on many occasions |
| 01:35.22 | prpplague | kay2: there are methods of doing this |
| 01:35.24 | kay2 | terpstra ? |
| 01:35.28 | prpplague | kay2: hehe |
| 01:35.31 | prpplague | kay2: google it |
| 01:35.50 | prpplague | kay2: hehe, he drinks to much and my CC has the charges to prove it |
| 01:35.54 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:35.58 | prpplague | kay2: anyway |
| 01:36.13 | prpplague | kay2: let me ask you something |
| 01:36.13 | kay2 | prpplague: can't find a correct url from google |
| 01:36.24 | prpplague | kay2: how old are yuu? |
| 01:36.27 | kay2 | 24 |
| 01:36.53 | AchiestDragon | btw http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/09/1232216 < this |
| 01:37.08 | prpplague | http://www.google.com/linux?hl=en&lr=&q=terpstra&btnG=Search |
| 01:37.31 | prpplague | kay2: ok. do you think you are the first person to ask these questions? |
| 01:37.48 | AchiestDragon | ok so what he did was wrong , and i may not aggree with it but what is happening over the extradition is realy bad |
| 01:37.59 | AchiestDragon | he got 2 years here for it btw |
| 01:38.13 | prpplague | kay2: no, people have been reverse engineering for years |
| 01:38.26 | prpplague | kay2: they are legal ways of reverse engineering |
| 01:38.27 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: what did he do ? |
| 01:39.01 | AchiestDragon | hacked a few us dod and nasa computers that still had default admin passwords set |
| 01:39.08 | prpplague | ha |
| 01:39.30 | AchiestDragon | but the default blank paswords for sysadmin |
| 01:39.33 | AchiestDragon | ? |
| 01:39.39 | AchiestDragon | welll |
| 01:39.49 | prpplague | kay2: hey, i'm totally worn out from a 5 day 2.6 port to a new arm board, i'll chat when i can with you any time |
| 01:40.06 | prpplague | AchiestDragon: later d00d, gotta go check my girl billy |
| 01:40.12 | AchiestDragon | laters |
| 01:40.14 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:40.17 | AchiestDragon | :) |
| 01:40.36 | AchiestDragon | the horse is cool |
| 01:40.59 | kay2 | so they want him to be sent to the US even if he never did anything there ? |
| 01:41.08 | AchiestDragon | you need to find the dr who confidential video to find out how thay filmed that |
| 01:41.12 | AchiestDragon | well |
| 01:41.36 | AchiestDragon | the thing is he was charged here for it and did 2 years for it |
| 01:42.04 | AchiestDragon | now the usa wants to try him again for it and give him 70 years |
| 01:42.41 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: bastard |
| 01:42.47 | kay2 | and they're gonna send him |
| 01:42.48 | kay2 | ? |
| 01:43.07 | AchiestDragon | the thing is that the uk has been tring to get ira terrorists that are free in the use extradited over hear for years that have killed people here but the us wont send them |
| 01:43.35 | kay2 | lol |
| 01:43.44 | kay2 | so they say give them to us and we'll send him |
| 01:44.51 | AchiestDragon | now the thing is that the riaa ( music copywrite thing in the us) are looking at this with view to try extridition of non us citicens from aborad to the us for trying them for p2p use |
| 01:45.13 | kay2 | yeah |
| 01:45.16 | kay2 | so if the UK does it |
| 01:45.22 | kay2 | it oppens the door for them |
| 01:45.32 | AchiestDragon | because this extridition is going to set a precident in the us courts |
| 01:45.36 | AchiestDragon | yes |
| 01:45.52 | kay2 | and their law are based on precidents |
| 01:46.28 | AchiestDragon | and what is not right is if they extrodit him he will be arrested on arival for not having valid visa etc |
| 01:46.48 | kay2 | hahhah |
| 01:46.52 | kay2 | that sucks |
| 01:46.58 | kay2 | and they call that democracy |
| 01:47.02 | AchiestDragon | so putting nim in a worse position of entering a countary without one |
| 01:47.06 | AchiestDragon | yes |
| 01:47.27 | kay2 | there was a video on that ? |
| 01:48.08 | AchiestDragon | so rather than prosicouting those that did not set paswords , there basicaly ensureing someone elce gets locked up for finding it |
| 01:48.37 | AchiestDragon | btw he was doing it for 2 years before thay found out |
| 01:48.44 | kay2 | lol |
| 01:48.48 | kay2 | they're dumb |
| 01:48.56 | AchiestDragon | seems so |
| 01:50.59 | AchiestDragon | i saw the interview he gave on tv here , i dont think hes totaly right in the head , and some of the claims have truth but not quite the way he discribed them |
| 01:51.38 | AchiestDragon | btw nasa do tuch up images to air brush out things , and i know that not from him |
| 01:52.47 | AchiestDragon | thay have made the mistake of doing it to 2 images that where not form nasa sats that i know of |
| 01:52.52 | AchiestDragon | :) |
| 01:54.16 | AchiestDragon | but "ufp's " not ufo's |
| 01:56.07 | AchiestDragon | sees if i can find the interview video for him |
| 01:56.57 | AchiestDragon | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/4977134.stm |
| 01:57.22 | AchiestDragon | thers a video ink on that page for the interview with him |
| 02:01.09 | AchiestDragon | not shure if it works ouside the uk |
| 02:03.19 | AchiestDragon | anyway , if he gets extradited the gov here will have a lot to answer for |
| 02:13.41 | AchiestDragon | btw to be fair , nasa air brush out items that are caused by known and unknown phenomina , like the efect of cosmic partical disortion , as there like interferance , but 1 spot can take up a fair few pixels of an image |
| 02:14.35 | AchiestDragon | but because of it there statemtn that thay dont tuch the image is a lie |
| 02:15.01 | AchiestDragon | and paranoia rules aparantly because of it |
| 02:19.58 | AchiestDragon | but you can see why http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk/UFONASASOHO.jpg |
| 02:24.43 | AchiestDragon | whatever that is it came from the surface of the sun that is from the full image of it to the left side of the picture |
| 02:28.22 | AchiestDragon | some form of solar plasma ejection , looks quite convincing for a ufo though |
| 02:31.15 | AchiestDragon | ineretingly that image was not from nasa , that was from the esa ,but nasa also published it as is |
| 02:31.35 | AchiestDragon | but the ufo lot got hold of it and it got lots of publicaty |
| 02:37.55 | AchiestDragon | easy to explain if you know what caused it , and what your looking at |
| 02:41.50 | prpplague | davies was the best thing to happen to dr.who in ages |
| 02:42.01 | AchiestDragon | :) |
| 02:42.09 | prpplague | damm go epi |
| 02:42.12 | prpplague | good |
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| 02:53.12 | AchiestDragon | wb |
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| 02:53.49 | AchiestDragon | boing |
| 03:00.20 | ka6sox | yep |
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| 13:04.28 | key2 | yop |
| 13:05.32 | key2 | AchiestDragon: u there ? |
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| 18:39.16 | AchiestDragon | key2: yes |
| 18:48.47 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: how hard would it be to make a cellphone with wifi ? |
| 18:49.04 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: using a gsm module, it should be easy no ? |
| 18:49.42 | AchiestDragon | proximaty of having 2 rf transmitters could be a problem |
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| 18:50.20 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: how do they do for having gsm+gprs+wifi+bluetooth |
| 18:51.30 | AchiestDragon | good screaning and added filters |
| 18:54.33 | kay2 | AchiestDragon: you know about a gsm module that has wifi ? |
| 18:54.45 | AchiestDragon | no |
| 18:55.49 | AchiestDragon | you going to be using it for wifi to gsm for internet access ? |
| 18:57.05 | AchiestDragon | then you need a gsm module , a cpu and stuff so it will act as a router and a wifi module ,, you will have to keep the areials about 4" away from eacother |
| 18:59.35 | kay2 | I wanna make a SIP phone |
| 18:59.40 | kay2 | that could either be with Wifi or GSM |
| 18:59.41 | kay2 | .. |
| 19:33.41 | AchiestDragon | should be posible gsm module + a wifi module |
| 19:34.29 | AchiestDragon | btw you would be more on topic in #openhardware for genaral questions |
| 23:47.19 | *** join/#openjtag prpplague (n=dave@69.73.206.157) |
