IRC log for #openezx on 20090731

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10:36.46wolf_anybody here?
10:37.58wolf_I recently had this idea: I find an old phone with some prior Linux hacking done. I make some (a few) changes to the HW design to fix some of the nastiest problems that were found due to the Linux work so far, new industrial design, then manufacture the phone
10:38.13wolf_Say I take a Moto 1200 as a starting point.
10:38.32wolf_it seems either the 1200 or 780 are 'best' supported by openezx now
10:39.57wolf_but then there are tons of things that still don't work even on a 780 or 1200.
10:40.22wolf_So what HW changes would be necessary on a 1200 or 780 to make it work better under Linux?
11:14.36ao2hi wolf_
11:18.16ao2things that don't work in openezx are mainly due to software problems, sure there are hardware quirks, but generally they can be worked around in software, so eventually they don't really prevent the phone to work.
11:50.56WyrMwolf_: heh, everything can be addressed in software... But, if I were designing the hardware, I would not do what motorola did for suspend/resume on the Baseband processor.
11:51.04WyrMBut well, this is software also.
11:51.20WyrMbut signed software that we can't change.
11:51.50WyrMRegarding only hardware... The GPS on a780 is crap.
11:52.07WyrMI would use something that uses less power.
11:54.07WyrMwolf_, ao2: btw, Hi :)
11:55.02wolf_hi
11:55.31wolf_I'm from Openmoko, now Qi Hardware
11:55.38wolf_following Werner's gta02-core
11:55.44wolf_not sure how much people here are aware of these things
11:56.00wolf_I actually knew openezx before Openmoko and that's how Harald introduced me to Openmoko :-)
11:56.02WyrMOpenmoko kind of started here. ;)
11:56.05wolf_old stories
11:56.07wolf_oh sure
11:56.48wolf_so anyway next week I'm in Shenzhen
11:57.18wolf_and one thought that crossed my mind was to 'copy' an old phone that is already pretty good wrt Linux support, and fix some things in the copy process too
11:57.31wolf_there are lots of companies there doing 'rogue' phones (called Shan Zhai)
11:57.37wolf_Nckia and such :-)
11:57.48wolf_you guys should see this
11:58.07wolf_so my 2 starting points for what to copy would be openezx or Samsung+NXP 50633 based stuff.
11:58.11wolf_(FreeRunner)
11:59.40WyrMEZX is closed..
11:59.54WyrMYou may have problems if you copy motorola design..
12:00.10wolf_hmm
12:00.15wolf_not sure where to start, HW is a world of its own
12:00.24WyrMAlso, I don't think you will ever find PTWL93017 (PCAP, our PMIC).
12:00.28wolf_let's call it 'design' not 'copy'
12:00.37wolf_yes OK, now it gets interesting
12:00.41wolf_which chips are EOL or so
12:00.46wolf_yet still important from SW side
12:00.49WyrMPCAP is not EOL.
12:00.58WyrMor better, it IS.
12:01.16wolf_so what?
12:01.19wolf_PCAP = power management?
12:01.29WyrMBut even if it weren't, it was something that only motorola could buy from TI.
12:01.49WyrMKind of a custom product, for a single customer.
12:02.43WyrMyes, pcap is Power, Clock, Audio, Touch Screen, RTC, Leds...
12:02.59WyrMPower Clock Audio Peripheral.
12:02.59wolf_WyrM, then let me ask you the other way round - in terms of just chips, what would your dream Linux phone look like?
12:03.23wolf_I was thinking PXA270 is good, because I expect it to be around for a long time.
12:03.32WyrMOMAP
12:03.33WyrM:)
12:03.40wolf_too expensive
12:03.51wolf_(not the chip, the whole board design it drags with it)
12:04.45WyrMWhat makes the board design so expensive?
12:05.03wolf_don't know the details, but people that do OMAP designs consistently say this
12:05.49wolf_(I hope we don't get into an OMAP discussion now. Somehow TI managed to get people to _love_ OMAP :-))
12:06.11wolf_back to ezx, if I wanted to clone this somehow you think the PCAP chip would be one big problem
12:06.20WyrMYes.
12:06.28WyrMBut you can replace PCAP with ATLAS.
12:06.33WyrMI think.. :)
12:06.41WyrMHave to check voltages, etc..
12:06.51WyrMAs moto never did a PXA/Atlas phone.
12:08.00WyrMATLAS = Freescale MC13783
12:08.19wolf_interesting
12:09.07wolf_so I take the 1200, replace PCAP with Atlas
12:09.08WyrMIts used on newer moto phones, with the SCM-A11.
12:09.15wolf_why is the camera on the 1200 not working?
12:09.29WyrMno sensor driver.
12:09.46wolf_does the PXA270 have a camera interface?
12:09.51WyrMyes
12:09.59wolf_the driver is missing on the 270 side or because of the camera module chosen in the 1200?
12:10.00WyrMand its supported by mainline linux
12:10.10WyrMcamera module, sensor.
12:10.17wolf_ok
12:10.21WyrMon a780/a910 we have a sensor driver.
12:10.49wolf_so: take a 1200, replace pcap with atlas, switch camera module to one with open datasheet or driver available
12:11.19wolf_swap the baseband for a Telit 3G module (?)
12:11.33WyrMyeah, that was my next question.. :)
12:11.40WyrMNeptune software is closed.
12:12.24wolf_oh sure
12:12.34WyrMput an acelerometer and a gps. ;)
12:12.37wolf_so is the 3G module (inside), but at least it's well documented
12:12.50wolf_no I wouldn't (accel + gps) :-)
12:12.57wolf_you are talking to someone with lots of Openmoko scars all over his body
12:13.11wolf_I would probably kick out some more things, but that's a separate thing
12:13.17wolf_first try to understand the situation
12:13.20WyrMwhy?
12:13.24wolf_I think we're already pretty good
12:13.32wolf_too complex
12:13.34wolf_the less the better
12:13.44WyrMim working on a project (not phone, but also has GPS + accel + GSM)..
12:13.45wolf_WyrM, you should check the new product we are doing at Qi Hardware! :-)
12:13.58wolf_nice
12:14.01wolf_already public? url?
12:14.14WyrMAnd Im thinking about using lis302dl, as openmoko did.
12:14.17WyrMBad choice?
12:14.22wolf_no
12:14.25wolf_was good
12:14.36WyrMIts a comercial project, no URL yet.
12:14.40wolf_just watch out accelerometers in REAL PRODUCTION cause much more problems that one would think
12:14.53wolf_it's not 'just' a chip
12:15.03wolf_OM had 2 of them, causing even more problems
12:15.15WyrMwhy 2?
12:15.20wolf_long story
12:15.23WyrMheh, isn't it 3 axis?
12:15.38wolf_don't get me started with that, life is too short
12:15.43wolf_no the chip was OK
12:15.48wolf_datasheet, driver
12:15.49wolf_all good
12:16.03wolf_I would not do it in our hypothetical phone thing because I don't have to
12:16.06wolf_same as wifi, gps
12:16.40WyrMGPS was pretty easy here.
12:16.44wolf_WyrM, you helped me a lot already, thank you!
12:16.54wolf_yes but little by little it all adds
12:17.03wolf_(if you want to do a good job)
12:17.06WyrMusing a sirf module, external antenna.
12:17.15wolf_testing becomes a REAL challenge at some point
12:17.25wolf_WyrM, any binary blobs running on the AP?
12:18.16WyrMYes.
12:18.23WyrMIts closed stuff.
12:18.31WyrMUsing linux, but still closed.
12:18.32wolf_so here's my phone:
12:18.44WyrMUnfortunatelly im not the one that decides. ;)
12:18.53wolf_PXA 270, atlas, telit 3g module, linux-friendly modern camera module
12:19.07ao2more RAM?
12:19.33WyrMYes, at least 128mb please! :)
12:20.25wolf_WyrM, ok but big picture wise this doesn't sound totally off to you?
12:20.41wolf_I take the 1200 schematics as a starting point
12:22.31WyrMHum..
12:22.39WyrMDo you want EMU too? ;)
12:22.51WyrMIts also another hard to support thing.
12:25.41wolf_what is that?
12:25.43wolf_the USB thing
12:25.47wolf_no I would kick it out
12:25.50wolf_the PXA has no USB?
12:26.32WyrMif you don't want EMU, then probably Atlas is not the better choice.
12:26.32wolf_ah yes
12:26.41WyrMBetter to use a PMIC without an usb transceiver.
12:26.44wolf_somehow USB attracts all these 'let's overload it' people
12:26.55WyrMyes.
12:26.55wolf_WyrM, such as?
12:27.26WyrMEMU can do USB host/device, UART (ttl), audio.
12:27.33WyrMDon't know.
12:28.56wolf_maybe no dedicated PMU at all
12:28.58wolf_just regulators
12:29.16WyrMHeh.
12:29.25WyrMThen its better to not use EZX as base..
12:29.33WyrMYou will need to add an audio codec
12:29.44WyrMand support BP and AP audio...
12:29.57wolf_the Atlas has the audio stuff?
12:30.01WyrMyes.
12:30.07WyrMeverything that PCAP has.
12:30.12WyrMand a bit more.
12:30.33wolf_hmm
12:30.34wolf_OK
12:30.38wolf_thanks for the leads anyway!
12:30.43WyrMAlso, unlike Openmoko, EZX uses digital audio for BP.
12:30.47wolf_need to run, dinner in Saigon :-)
12:30.54WyrMwolf_: ok, bye! :)
12:32.47WyrMgoogles about why openmoko needed 2 accel chips. LOL
12:32.54WyrMthis is strange.
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17:11.46tmztWyrM: which chips?
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17:38.06WyrMtmzt: lis302dl
17:38.07WyrM3 axis accelerometer.
17:38.26WyrMtmzt: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Technical:Accelerometer_Fundamentals
17:44.30marexWyrM: hi!
17:44.42marexWyrM: I got quite usable picture from the Z72 camera
17:44.54marex(ie. the colors were near normal)
17:45.07marexthe problem is I still cant communicate with it over the SCCB/i2c
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18:28.23tmztwolf_: you are familiar with gta03 and the gta03-list?
18:42.01marextmzt: there'll be GTA03 ?
18:42.55tmztno, not exactly
18:43.09tmztbut there are internal plans including some electrical stuff
18:43.43wolf_tmzt, familiar - sure I'm familiar
18:43.45tmztand some kind of community plan to attempt minor modifications to the gta02 (remove gl chip, move the sd, something like that)
18:43.56wolf_I ran all of this until 2 months ago :-)
18:43.58tmztmarex: read the gta03-list
18:44.08wolf_tmzt, correct that's gta02-core
18:44.33tmztah, right
18:44.46tmztwhat is this about using ezx design?
18:45.38wolf_oh that's just me thinking
18:45.46wolf_we are all trying to make the 'next' open phone
18:45.59wolf_we learnt a lot from OM, and there are different ways to get there
18:47.00wolf_in the end it seems to me werner's approach (gta02-core) is best
18:47.12wolf_an ezx revival would have more problems
18:54.34marextmzt: well Im open to development samples ;-) anyway ... time to hack on the camera :-)
18:55.30tmzthey, the feature I want is qwerty
18:55.43tmztnot even 3g is that important, edge would be nice though
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