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| 01:04.52 | *** join/#openembedded noda (~noda@modemcable063.97-200-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 01:04.54 | noda | Moo! |
| 01:05.09 | treke|laptop | noda |
| 01:05.17 | noda | treke|laptop: H'lo :) |
| 01:05.25 | noda | Heard my cousin was on here today :) |
| 01:05.29 | noda | Or... on #openzaurus |
| 01:05.30 | treke|laptop | noda: go write the download script |
| 01:05.58 | noda | treke|laptop: Um. Okay, I'll think about writing it tonight, in like half an hour (after supper) :) |
| 01:06.03 | noda | You caught me at a REALLY good time. |
| 01:06.04 | treke|laptop | ha |
| 01:06.27 | treke|laptop | then cancel that one |
| 01:06.31 | treke|laptop | how about writing my code |
| 01:06.40 | noda | Also, treke, was it you who made that extra doc about OZ on ipaq? I figured we might want to put it in the main openzaurus.org page. |
| 01:06.47 | noda | Your code? :P |
| 01:06.49 | treke|laptop | yeah |
| 01:06.55 | noda | What's that? :) |
| 01:06.59 | treke|laptop | I hacked that out of your docs |
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| 01:07.10 | treke|laptop | noda: php based inventory software |
| 01:07.21 | noda | rofl, NO :) |
| 01:07.45 | noda | I've done way too much PHP! oz.org, my contract and all the stuff I do at work... if I have to take on something else EXACTLY like all these other projects, I'll explode! |
| 01:07.50 | treke|laptop | hehe |
| 01:08.40 | yeiazel | php sucks |
| 01:08.43 | yeiazel | 0 :) |
| 01:08.54 | noda | I'd give you some of my code to copy, but unfortunately it's not OSS (though I may be able to pull some strings) |
| 01:08.59 | noda | yeiazel: It's great for certain things. |
| 01:09.03 | treke|laptop | noda: Nah. We've got tons of it |
| 01:09.07 | yeiazel | noda: no |
| 01:09.08 | noda | Heh :) |
| 01:09.09 | treke|laptop | noda: It's mor or less done |
| 01:09.37 | yeiazel | noda: it can be used unefficiently for certain things. |
| 01:09.53 | noda | treke|laptop: I released our new internal helpdesk program I've been working on for the past 2 weeks or so... it's getting praise. Replacing my first PHP project (or was it 2nd?) |
| 01:09.58 | noda | yeiazel: So can C :) |
| 01:10.02 | treke|laptop | noda: fun |
| 01:10.25 | noda | yeiazel: Logic in general can be used INefficiently, that doesn't mean logic isn't useful. |
| 01:10.39 | treke|laptop | noda: we've been working on and off on this for a few months |
| 01:10.39 | yeiazel | noda: C has the advantage of being low-level, fast |
| 01:10.48 | noda | yeiazel: Yes. I agree. |
| 01:10.56 | yeiazel | apart from that, C sucks |
| 01:11.03 | noda | I disagree :) |
| 01:11.54 | noda | I did this whole thing in about 2 weeks :) |
| 01:11.54 | yeiazel | with python. |
| 01:12.19 | noda | yeiazel: Don't say python is perfect. I haven't tried it so I can't critisize it, but I know it's not. You can code stupid stuff in Python too and it'll be just as stupid :) |
| 01:12.32 | yeiazel | yes |
| 01:12.35 | noda | *criticize |
| 01:12.40 | yeiazel | but it has some advantages |
| 01:12.57 | yeiazel | I love the syntax, and all that... |
| 01:13.02 | noda | Indeed. Every language does. If a language has no advantages, it doesn't get very far. |
| 01:13.09 | yeiazel | no stupid {, } or ; |
| 01:13.28 | noda | yeiazel: visual basic doesn't either, that doesn't make it a good language. |
| 01:13.49 | yeiazel | it's not my only argument ;) |
| 01:13.49 | treke|laptop | visual basic doesnt have any advantages |
| 01:13.55 | noda | lol |
| 01:14.12 | noda | treke|laptop: I think it gets by because people who learned it in high school never bother to learn anything else :) |
| 01:14.41 | noda | And it gets more and more bloated as Microsoft gets more and more... bloat-ing. But VB programmers never realize it's getting worse with every iteration :) |
| 01:15.17 | noda | The advantage would be that lots of people know it. |
| 01:15.26 | noda | Like Windows :) |
| 01:15.46 | yeiazel | a really good advantage of python is that you don't have to bother about anything else than what you want |
| 01:15.56 | noda | yeiazel: What do you mean? |
| 01:15.58 | yeiazel | you don't deal with memory, var types, etc. |
| 01:16.10 | noda | Okay, I don't in PHP either :) |
| 01:16.19 | noda | (don't diss PHP, I *do* know that language ;)) |
| 01:16.24 | yeiazel | but PHP has {, } and ; |
| 01:16.24 | yeiazel | :) |
| 01:16.26 | noda | treke|laptop: I agree :) |
| 01:16.45 | treke|laptop | yeiazel: ugh, the one think I hate about python the most |
| 01:16.49 | noda | I loathe the constant need to typecast everytihng :) |
| 01:16.50 | treke|laptop | white space being significant |
| 01:17.01 | yeiazel | treke|laptop: I think it's great |
| 01:17.02 | noda | *everything |
| 01:17.19 | noda | I have yet to learn it, so I can't say either way :) |
| 01:17.22 | treke|laptop | noda: Strict typing is a good thing imo. Elimitates a lot of stupid bugs |
| 01:17.27 | yeiazel | if your programs are written well, they ARE indented |
| 01:17.27 | noda | Agreed :) |
| 01:18.04 | yeiazel | then, give a signification to this indentation, and you've got python :) |
| 01:18.08 | noda | Error handling in PHP is shite, too. PEAR_Error is a start, but not great. |
| 01:18.48 | treke|laptop | error handling is major shit, but it can be handled fairly well with extra work |
| 01:18.56 | yeiazel | other cool things in python are slicing, dictionaries... |
| 01:19.12 | yeiazel | the garbage collector, the exceptions handler |
| 01:19.38 | noda | treke|laptop: How do you handle errors in PHP? I use PEAR::raiseError() extensively :) |
| 01:19.42 | yeiazel | many of these things are present in many languages... but I don't know any language that has all them. |
| 01:20.24 | noda | yeiazel: It's called "libraries" -- just because C doesn't have, say, linked lists, doesn't mean you can't use them with a simple library. |
| 01:21.00 | yeiazel | I don't think slicing can be used with C |
| 01:21.17 | yeiazel | nor dictionaries, the way you can use then in python |
| 01:22.00 | treke|laptop | noda: A class derived from PEAR_Error that does extra stuff |
| 01:22.28 | treke|laptop | noda: Integrates into the frameworks's debugging page |
| 01:22.31 | noda | Heh, you've one-upped me :) |
| 01:22.52 | noda | $obj->setErrorHandling(PEAR_ERROR_CALLBACK, "my_sweet_callback"); |
| 01:23.07 | treke|laptop | thats the annoying thing |
| 01:23.15 | treke|laptop | cant do callback error handling :) |
| 01:23.33 | noda | Heh :) |
| 01:23.34 | yeiazel | exceptions rock :p |
| 01:23.51 | noda | Yup. PHP5 will have try {} catch; :) |
| 01:24.07 | noda | And better OO :) |
| 01:24.27 | yeiazel | "better OO", hah |
| 01:24.41 | yeiazel | it's not even a real OO language |
| 01:24.47 | yeiazel | perl isn't too |
| 01:24.49 | noda | yeiazel: I'm well aware of that :) |
| 01:24.51 | treke|laptop | noda: We need to pass in the filename and line number with every error :p |
| 01:24.52 | yeiazel | python is OO from the beginning |
| 01:24.53 | yeiazel | :) |
| 01:25.20 | noda | treke|laptop: ACK! That's horrible! use debug_backtrace() :) |
| 01:25.22 | noda | (with PHP 4.3+) |
| 01:25.36 | noda | treke|laptop: You at least use __FILE__ and __LINE__, right? :P |
| 01:25.38 | treke|laptop | noda: That depends on php 4.3 |
| 01:25.41 | treke|laptop | noda: correct |
| 01:25.42 | yeiazel | and you feel in when you use the language, it's like... wow, when I've switched from php to python... was impressed :) |
| 01:25.44 | noda | Ah |
| 01:27.02 | yeiazel | (switched from php to zope...) |
| 01:27.33 | treke|laptop | noda: lemme break something |
| 01:27.44 | noda | treke: ? |
| 01:32.31 | treke|laptop | noda: http://info.brooks.edu/~ggilbert/debug.jpg |
| 01:33.09 | noda | Pretty! |
| 01:33.40 | noda | treke|laptop: That colourful var_dump() -- that's your code? :) |
| 01:33.49 | scanline | python has something pretty much the same, though not as pretty |
| 01:34.13 | treke|laptop | someone else run dump stuff |
| 01:34.17 | noda | Still, no matter what you can do with a static page, it's not as nifty as, say, GDB :) |
| 01:34.19 | scanline | http://navi.picogui.org/cgi-bin/disks.cgi?sections=foobar |
| 01:34.26 | treke|laptop | noda: yup |
| 01:34.31 | treke|laptop | gdb r0x0rs |
| 01:34.39 | yeiazel | ... that's a really horrible language... |
| 01:34.43 | noda | I haven't seen a good PHP debugger yet. |
| 01:34.58 | yeiazel | these "s", "=>"... |
| 01:35.31 | treke|laptop | what is wrong with => |
| 01:35.36 | yeiazel | errr |
| 01:35.39 | yeiazel | s/s/$/ |
| 01:35.46 | yeiazel | treke|laptop: "." is cuter |
| 01:35.51 | yeiazel | simpler |
| 01:35.56 | yeiazel | better |
| 01:35.56 | yeiazel | :) |
| 01:36.01 | noda | yeiazel: You are clueless :) |
| 01:36.17 | noda | I figured it out all on my own :) |
| 01:36.34 | yeiazel | :) |
| 01:36.38 | treke|laptop | dunno. => seems to match the concept of linking a key to an array better than . |
| 01:36.40 | noda | => vs . doesn't make or break a language. It's not even something to put onto a *list* :) |
| 01:37.06 | yeiazel | errr |
| 01:37.13 | yeiazel | what am I saying |
| 01:37.23 | yeiazel | forget |
| 01:37.26 | yeiazel | : |
| 01:37.29 | yeiazel | that's better |
| 01:37.29 | yeiazel | :) |
| 01:37.55 | yeiazel | {'foo':'bar', 'blah':'blah'} <= that's cute |
| 01:37.56 | yeiazel | :p |
| 01:37.56 | noda | Sheesh |
| 01:38.22 | noda | L( |
| 01:38.23 | noda | :) |
| 01:38.27 | yeiazel | (sorry, 3:37 here; am tired) |
| 01:38.49 | scanline | yeiazel: of course everyone that's actually used python knows it's cute :) |
| 01:39.01 | yeiazel | treke|laptop: but bunches of small differences become annoying |
| 01:39.01 | yeiazel | :) |
| 01:39.02 | treke|laptop | its massive fucking braindamage like no private data |
| 01:39.28 | scanline | treke|laptop: it has private data just as much as C++ does |
| 01:39.29 | yeiazel | other advantages in better languages are more interesting than that |
| 01:39.34 | yeiazel | but it's part of the language |
| 01:39.56 | treke|laptop | scanline: No it doesnt. Everything is public. |
| 01:40.16 | yeiazel | I have never seen the real advantage of having private data |
| 01:40.24 | noda | yeiazel: Good code :) |
| 01:40.24 | scanline | treke|laptop: you begin a variable with "__" and it's about as private as you can get |
| 01:40.32 | scanline | but it's rarely useful to actually do that |
| 01:40.45 | scanline | private data doesn't make that much sense when you follow python's philosophuy |
| 01:41.00 | treke|laptop | scanline: I wasnt talking about python. I was talking about php |
| 01:41.05 | scanline | ohh |
| 01:41.09 | noda | I've skipped doing real work and just used a private variable in PHP when I shouldn't have -- because it's easy to get lazy :) |
| 01:41.24 | yeiazel | don't say "to avoid using it externally": a language's role is not to deal with programmer's dumbness |
| 01:42.07 | treke|laptop | yeiazel: Thats exactly what it's for though. The language is defining what the programer can depend on |
| 01:42.42 | scanline | treke|laptop: a language is just a tool |
| 01:42.45 | noda | yeiazel: Private variables are definitely useful -- imagine someone documents an API and somebody finds a private variable and uses it. The API changes and the private variable disappears -- the user complains, but it's his fault. |
| 01:42.55 | scanline | be in safety scissors or a fusion-powered chainsaw |
| 01:42.59 | scanline | s/in/it/ |
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| 01:43.40 | treke|laptop | noda: hehe. |
| 01:44.35 | yeiazel | noda: it's nobody's and everybody's fault. the API's developper should have make his code reverse-compatible. the user should have used functions that were meant to be used |
| 01:44.50 | noda | yeiazel: No, the API developer did NOTHING wrong. The user was an idiot. |
| 01:45.00 | treke|laptop | yeiazel: its not the api developers fault |
| 01:45.00 | noda | HOWEVER, in C++, for example, this wouldn't happen. |
| 01:45.12 | yeiazel | mmhhhh |
| 01:45.20 | treke|laptop | yeiazel: The user of the api tried accessing things the api didnt provide access to |
| 01:45.23 | scanline | noda: C++ does nothing to prevent you from using private members, it just discourages it |
| 01:45.29 | noda | Which is an advantage. No two ways about it, that aspect of C++, which is optional, is an advantage over PHP :) |
| 01:45.48 | noda | scanline: That probably depends on the compiler, right? :) |
| 01:45.57 | scanline | noda: nope |
| 01:46.01 | yeiazel | yeah, you're right. with a more global and logical point of view, I agree... |
| 01:46.29 | yeiazel | but the data being private or public, the user shouldn't use it... |
| 01:46.38 | noda | I've got the big long one in the middle, and the two spherical ones on either side... :P |
| 01:46.51 | treke|laptop | yeiazel: If they can use it, they will at some point |
| 01:47.11 | yeiazel | treke|laptop: but they don't have to complain. |
| 01:47.12 | treke|laptop | so your best off disallowing them use of it |
| 01:47.52 | yeiazel | and it doesn't make sense with python's philosophy |
| 01:48.06 | scanline | treke|laptop: why is it the API writer's responsibility to idiot-proof everything rather than just documenting what's public and what isn't? |
| 01:48.20 | yeiazel | python is meant to make it easy for the programmer to program |
| 01:48.25 | noda | I thought Python's philosophy was "the way you think is best is the way it should be" |
| 01:48.47 | yeiazel | I don't want to deal with such idiot things. private, public, who cares ? |
| 01:48.49 | treke|laptop | yeiazel: How does python's philosphy affect this? You still have private data and methods, correct? |
| 01:48.54 | noda | scanline: I thought the whole idea of an API was to idiot-proof something :) |
| 01:49.04 | scanline | noda: python's philosophy isn't something you can explain really.. you have to experience it |
| 01:49.06 | treke|laptop | scanline: Because he's the only person in a position to do it |
| 01:49.10 | noda | rofl |
| 01:49.20 | noda | Like The Matrix, but when we watched the movie we got the idea ;) |
| 01:49.24 | yeiazel | noda: I agree with scanline. really. |
| 01:49.31 | yeiazel | can't really explain it |
| 01:49.32 | noda | You don't say :) |
| 01:49.40 | scanline | and I'm just agreeing with what njs said in #picogui earlier today :) |
| 01:50.06 | scanline | <njs> TD: python doesn't _want_ a reinforced link between object methods and data. I can understand how you might want such a thing at times, but that's not python's philosophy, and you have to look at languages as complete systems. |
| 01:50.06 | scanline | <TD> then what is its philosophy |
| 01:50.06 | scanline | <njs> *shrug* Spend a lot of time grokking how python works, and you'll get a feel for it. I have no idea how to explain things like that in words :-) |
| 01:50.12 | yeiazel | I have a different point of view about programming since I know python... |
| 01:50.16 | noda | Just because you can't explain something doesn't mean it's complicated or inexplicable :) |
| 01:50.23 | treke|laptop | scanline: If the developer wants to leave everything public, (s)he has to deal with not being able to change the internals |
| 01:51.09 | scanline | treke|laptop: I never said you leave everything public- I said you mark what's public and what's private through documentation (generally via a naming convention) rather than completely forbidding access to some variables |
| 01:51.45 | scanline | treke|laptop: when I first got started with python I was worried about private variables too, but now that I understand python's philosophy, I don't worry |
| 01:52.05 | treke|laptop | scanline: That doesnt help though. That depends on other people doing the right thing, which theyh dont always do |
| 01:52.20 | scanline | treke|laptop: then if there's a problem it's not your fault |
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| 01:52.38 | noda | treke|laptop: I think Python's philosophy is "everybody lives in a fairy world." That's what it seems like :P |
| 01:52.46 | scanline | treke|laptop: python isn't a pair of rubber-coated safety scissors, it's the nuclear chainsaw |
| 01:52.49 | treke|laptop | scanline: That doesnt help the user who upgrade your library and suddenly finds their app doesnt work |
| 01:53.03 | treke|laptop | or the app that they got from someone else |
| 01:53.07 | noda | scanline: You still get the flak when a big company dumps your API because you changed the internals, even though they weren't supposed to use 'em. |
| 01:53.12 | scanline | you're really missing the point.... |
| 01:53.27 | scanline | and I did say that you can mark variables as private in python |
| 01:53.33 | scanline | just that usually you don't want to |
| 01:53.48 | noda | say you're selling the API -- an important customer WILL use private variables, and if you change them YOU will get burned. |
| 01:54.12 | noda | Because the one rule you need to know to get through life is, "People are idiots." |
| 01:54.18 | scanline | noda: so then you'd break everything python stands for and use private variables |
| 01:54.23 | scanline | but it's not the right philosophy |
| 01:54.50 | noda | scanline: lol, if it lets you do private variables I guess it has a conflicted philosophy :) |
| 01:55.05 | scanline | noda: no language is perfect |
| 01:55.12 | noda | Right :) |
| 01:55.12 | treke|laptop | ah. Pythons philosphy is go ahead and let people hang themselves |
| 01:55.21 | scanline | and still, they aren't truly private.. you just would have to access them through getattr rather than directly |
| 01:55.38 | scanline | if you could make 100% private vars in python, it would really screw up serialization and other types of introspection |
| 01:55.42 | noda | That's what scanline and yeiazel are making it sound like, but I think it *is* a great language, just gotta sit down and learn it some day :) |
| 01:55.46 | scanline | would really make the whole language less useful |
| 01:56.13 | noda | scanline: Um. But they are never to be accessed at all :) |
| 01:56.13 | scanline | well, part of the issue is that python makes it really easy to write APIs that don't break |
| 01:56.27 | noda | Ah :) |
| 01:57.13 | scanline | treke|laptop: whatever, but in practice it works |
| 01:57.35 | scanline | everything depends on the programmers doing the right thing, just to different degrees |
| 01:57.47 | scanline | in C++, I could do a little pointer math and get at whatever private vars I want |
| 01:57.53 | noda | Most programmers are idiots :) |
| 01:57.56 | scanline | or I could just segfault the darn thing |
| 01:58.07 | scanline | noda: well maybe the idiots haven't discovered python yet :P |
| 01:58.14 | noda | scanline: I think they haven't :) |
| 01:58.38 | noda | Most programmers are idiots, but they're not REAL programmers - i.e., they don't hang out in hacker circles 'n stuff. So maybe it's because Python is so quiet that it's so successful :) |
| 01:59.22 | treke|laptop | you have to hang out with programmers to be a real programmer? |
| 01:59.34 | treke|laptop | noda: now you've gone off the deep end |
| 01:59.41 | noda | Nah, when I mean "REAL" I guess I mean... avid. |
| 01:59.58 | noda | Y'know, enthusiastic. As opposed to "I write stuff from 9 to 5 and get paid for it" |
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| 02:00.39 | treke|laptop | 8 hours of coding a day isnt enough? :p |
| 02:00.47 | noda | lol, you know what I mean :) |
| 02:00.50 | noda | (don't you?) |
| 02:01.09 | treke|laptop | no. Too tired. Going to leep |
| 02:01.26 | noda | Some people will do "i = i + 1" for all their lives because they never bothered to learn "i++" and "++i" :) |
| 02:01.51 | yeiazel | "i++" has appeared recently in python |
| 02:01.59 | noda | I'm not talking 'bout python :) |
| 02:02.08 | yeiazel | I am |
| 02:02.08 | yeiazel | :) |
| 02:02.14 | noda | yeiazel: This kind of programmer would never DREAM of learning a new language that wouldn't make him money :) |
| 02:02.42 | huhnl | Well...if the economy gets even worse then you will hopefully see less of this :) |
| 02:02.51 | noda | Hehehe :) |
| 02:03.42 | huhnl | Emacs requires so much maintainance. |
| 02:04.52 | treke|laptop | too slow to start though :p |
| 02:05.04 | huhnl | Tramp or emacs? |
| 02:05.07 | treke|laptop | emacs |
| 02:05.07 | noda | vimvimvim :) |
| 02:05.51 | noda | Gotta learn emacs some day too. I know "ctrl-u" and that's about it :) |
| 02:06.23 | treke|laptop | noda: I seem to try every few months |
| 02:07.13 | treke|laptop | maybe I'll try again this weekend |
| 02:07.29 | noda | Does emacs have a gtk2 port? |
| 02:07.37 | treke|laptop | dunno |
| 02:07.58 | noda | The only thing left on my system that uses gtk1 is xmms. I *still* haven't found a suitable replacement :( |
| 02:08.28 | treke|laptop | vmware is my only gtk1 app I think |
| 02:08.36 | treke|laptop | oh and xmms |
| 02:09.01 | treke|laptop | X based editors dont do me much good anyways |
| 02:09.27 | noda | I sometimes use gvim because it's a quick way of editing in a background window :) |
| 02:09.34 | noda | Heh, everything I edit is off CVS :) |
| 02:10.42 | treke|laptop | the only thing running locally on my workstation at work is xmms, evolution, and sometimes vmware |
| 02:10.54 | treke|laptop | everything else is done on remote machines :p |
| 02:10.54 | noda | Evolution... gtk2? Is it good? :) |
| 02:11.09 | treke|laptop | its better than evolution 1 |
| 02:11.24 | noda | Gotta try it then. It's just such a BITCH to compile! |
| 02:11.29 | treke|laptop | I dont know if I'd go so far as to say its good |
| 02:12.01 | treke|laptop | At least I dont use webmail to avoid evolution any more |
| 02:12.08 | noda | Heh |
| 02:12.16 | noda | I use mozilla-mail. At work I use thunderbird. |
| 02:12.44 | treke|laptop | and evolution/outlook/webmail at work |
| 02:13.16 | noda | treke: IMAP? :) |
| 02:13.23 | treke|laptop | noda: No. |
| 02:13.48 | noda | POP? |
| 02:13.52 | treke|laptop | no. |
| 02:13.57 | treke|laptop | exchange at work |
| 02:14.13 | treke|laptop | local mail files for mutt |
| 02:14.19 | noda | Bleh, that's IMAP :) |
| 02:14.33 | treke|laptop | ha |
| 02:14.45 | noda | Except suckier :) |
| 02:14.49 | treke|laptop | sure it's imap, except a completly different protocol :p |
| 02:15.12 | noda | Microsoft advertises it as IMAP at least. Then again, it markets Active Directory as LDAP :) |
| 02:15.46 | treke|home | I dotn think I've ever seen them call it imap? |
| 02:16.25 | treke|home | MS Exchange can use the imap protocol. But that isnt enabled on our serve |
| 02:16.28 | noda | Well... that's what it is :) |
| 02:16.29 | noda | Oh :) |
| 02:16.55 | noda | Thought that was the main protocol... |
| 02:17.05 | treke|home | nope. It has it's own protocol |
| 02:17.23 | noda | Ah well, suppertime -- later! :) |
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| 03:20.43 | TheMasterMind1 | aww |
| 03:20.43 | TheMasterMind1 | damn |
| 03:20.44 | TheMasterMind1 | noda left |
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| 09:36.46 | Twiun | hiya zecke |
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| 12:55.27 | mickeyl | moin |
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| 13:21.14 | Twiun | hey mickeyl |
| 13:24.45 | mickeyl | hi Twiun - feeling better? |
| 13:27.14 | Twiun | mickeyl: yup, although today's pollen count is still 8/10 - doing some DIY atm for my new server |
| 13:27.35 | Twiun | going to hide the server in a cabinet |
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| 13:28.52 | HCl | hmmm |
| 13:29.10 | HCl | which package holds the /usr/include libc includes? |
| 13:29.16 | HCl | .h files.. |
| 13:29.58 | Twiun | glibc? |
| 13:30.16 | HCl | yea |
| 13:30.28 | HCl | stdlib.h etc |
| 13:30.46 | Twiun | buildroot should stick them under output/staging/ iirc |
| 13:31.18 | HCl | mmk |
| 13:31.21 | HCl | fair enough. |
| 13:32.03 | Twiun | once the package is built of course ;) |
| 13:32.14 | HCl | mmm... |
| 13:32.21 | HCl | i just installed gcc onto my zaurus |
| 13:32.29 | HCl | and i need those files if i want to compile anything.. |
| 13:33.22 | Twiun | ahhh - whouldn't they come with gcc? |
| 13:33.39 | HCl | a simple hello world doesnt even compile yet.. |
| 13:35.17 | Twiun | hmmm, yeah, you're going to have to use the ones from the buildroot it seems |
| 13:35.35 | Twiun | hopefully the version with the Z's libc will match |
| 13:37.17 | HCl | ld wont even link yet.. |
| 13:37.42 | HCl | meh.. |
| 13:42.37 | HCl | grr. |
| 13:42.43 | HCl | /usr/bin/ld: cannot open crt1.o: No such file or directory |
| 13:43.14 | Twiun | hmmm, sounds like you need to install everything from glibc |
| 13:43.21 | Twiun | why isn't that included with gcc? |
| 13:43.26 | HCl | dunno. |
| 13:43.56 | HCl | i copied it to /lib, didnt help |
| 13:44.24 | HCl | you wouldnt happen to know in what directory its searching for ctr1? |
| 13:44.28 | HCl | crt* |
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| 13:45.08 | Twiun | I would look at where the buildroot sickes it |
| 13:45.21 | HCl | it doesnt. |
| 13:45.27 | HCl | [HCl@acrux]:/tmp/buildroot/output/staging# find . -name crt1.o |
| 13:45.27 | HCl | [HCl@acrux]:/tmp/buildroot/output/staging# |
| 13:45.50 | Twiun | try looking in built/ |
| 13:47.03 | HCl | great... ld is only looking in the current directory for it.. |
| 13:47.07 | HCl | ./glibc-2.3.1/installtemp/lib/crt1.o |
| 13:48.18 | HCl | /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lc |
| 13:48.21 | HCl | mmmk |
| 13:49.14 | Twiun | note that the Z doesn't have ldconfig by default |
| 13:49.18 | HCl | i know... |
| 13:49.20 | HCl | installing.. |
| 13:50.14 | HCl | running ldconfig didnt help.. |
| 13:50.19 | HCl | im running out of ideas o.o |
| 13:51.10 | HCl | LD_LIBRARY_PATH seems ok too... |
| 13:53.06 | HCl | anyone? |
| 13:59.18 | HCl | >.< c'mon |
| 13:59.54 | Twiun | I've run out of ideas I'm afraid |
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| 14:28.41 | darmou1 | Where's the Indreama? Now that was a console:) |
| 14:29.41 | darmou1 | oops sorry wrong channel:( |
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| 15:05.56 | noda | Moo! |
| 15:12.21 | Twiun | hey noda |
| 15:12.37 | Twiun | did you have any problems installing phpwiki? |
| 15:19.54 | mickeyl | ibot: seen TheMasterMind1 |
| 15:19.54 | | themastermind1 is currently on #opie (13h 19m 43s) #gct (13h 19m 43s) #uclibc (13h 19m 43s) #gpe (13h 19m 43s) #zaurus (13h 19m 43s) #elinux (13h 19m 43s) #openembedded (13h 19m 43s) #handhelds.org (13h 19m 43s) #openzaurus (13h 19m 43s). Has said a total of 3 messages. Is idling for 11h 59m 10s |
| 15:20.12 | noda | Twiun: Not that I can recall, was fairly straightforward. |
| 15:20.16 | mickeyl | TheMasterMind1: *reminder* pleeeease upload the zImage for 3.2.5rc1 *reminder* |
| 15:20.24 | mickeyl | ibot: botmail for TheMasterMind1: *reminder* pleeeease upload the zImage for 3.2.5rc1 *reminder* |
| 15:24.02 | Twiun | noda: mine insists on spewing gzipped html to everyone except links and wget |
| 15:24.16 | Twiun | noda: and that only happens after phpwiki inistialises itself for the first time |
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| 15:26.28 | noda | Twiun: You can turn off gzip encoding in php.ini or .htaccess |
| 15:26.42 | noda | Or you can use ini_set() in a global include before any content is set. |
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| 15:27.51 | Twiun | noda: I'll give that a try, thanks :) |
| 15:31.03 | Twiun | noda: what settings in php.ini should I check for? |
| 15:31.09 | Twiun | noda: zlib* seems to be off |
| 15:31.21 | noda | One sec :) |
| 15:31.34 | noda | zlib.output_compression |
| 15:31.45 | noda | Okay then, grep the phpwiki directory tree for "output_compression" :) |
| 15:31.49 | noda | Maybe it tries to turn it on :) |
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| 15:33.39 | Twiun | hrmph. nope, nothing in there :( |
| 15:34.11 | mithro | apache can also do compression |
| 15:34.16 | mithro | mod_gzip |
| 15:34.18 | noda | Right, forgot about that :) |
| 15:34.39 | Twiun | unfortunately, I checked that yesterday :( |
| 15:34.52 | Twiun | mod_gzip isn't installed _or_ present in the apache2 config files |
| 15:35.06 | noda | apache2? There ya go. |
| 15:35.22 | noda | Use apache1 with php -- apache2+php is not stable. |
| 15:35.43 | Twiun | not really much of a choice... apache2 is what's in the mdk9.1 rpm repository |
| 15:35.53 | Twiun | apache1 has gone byebye |
| 15:36.17 | mithro | i've never had any problems with apache 2.0 + php |
| 15:36.26 | Twiun | I'd like a server that's easy to rebuild - so I try to avoid non-rpm installs |
| 15:36.56 | Twiun | no other ideas as to what could be going wrong? |
| 15:37.20 | noda | Your browser maybe? |
| 15:37.23 | noda | Try with Lynx? |
| 15:38.48 | Twiun | shows garbage as well... |
| 15:39.06 | Twiun | running file on the garbage identifies it as gzipped data |
| 15:40.02 | Twiun | doing lynx -head gives: |
| 15:40.05 | Twiun | HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently |
| 15:40.05 | Twiun | Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:39:22 GMT |
| 15:40.05 | Twiun | Server: Apache-AdvancedExtranetServer |
| 15:40.05 | Twiun | Location: http://192.168.1.5/wiki/ |
| 15:40.05 | Twiun | Connection: close |
| 15:40.05 | Twiun | Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 |
| 15:40.24 | noda | Heh, lynx -head http://192.168.1.5/wiki/ |
| 15:40.54 | Twiun | that's what I did ;) |
| 15:41.04 | noda | Maybe lynx -head http://192.168.1.5/wiki/index.php |
| 15:41.05 | Twiun | just abbreviated the command for irc ;) |
| 15:41.30 | Twiun | using the index: |
| 15:41.31 | Twiun | HTTP/1.1 200 OK |
| 15:41.31 | Twiun | Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:40:51 GMT |
| 15:41.31 | Twiun | Server: Apache-AdvancedExtranetServer |
| 15:41.31 | Twiun | Accept-Ranges: bytes |
| 15:41.31 | Twiun | X-Powered-By: PHP/4.3.1 |
| 15:41.33 | Twiun | Set-Cookie: PHPSESSID=994280e7fec26539ccb181f856d5cf57; path=/ |
| 15:41.35 | Twiun | Connection: close |
| 15:41.37 | Twiun | Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 |
| 15:41.48 | Twiun | and still garbage :( |
| 15:42.01 | Twiun | I'd say that from this, it's not the http server, right? |
| 15:43.17 | noda | It looks like it is: it should have an "Encoding" header. |
| 15:43.22 | noda | or whatever it is |
| 15:43.35 | noda | Content-Encoding: gzip |
| 15:43.41 | noda | Or it shouldn't gzip. One or the other. |
| 15:43.55 | noda | Even though zlib output compression is disabled... weird. |
| 15:43.58 | noda | Try *enabling* it? |
| 15:44.06 | Twiun | sure thing |
| 15:46.05 | Twiun | enabling it in php.ini had no effect |
| 15:46.22 | noda | Bleh. I give up :) |
| 15:46.27 | noda | google :) |
| 15:46.38 | Twiun | hehe |
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| 15:53.26 | Twiun | ibot: botmail for noda: got it to work - had to hack Request.php of all things. |
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| 16:14.18 | Twiun | asking for someone else here, but is gtk2 static-compilable? |
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| 16:54.50 | noidd | ping kergoth |
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| 16:59.21 | treke|home | noidd: he'll be back monday |
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| 17:01.23 | pb_ | kind of a novelty to have a 9-to-5 kergoth. |
| 17:05.26 | mickeyl | we all are hoping that this changes as soon as he has connectivity @ home ;) |
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| 17:21.46 | Twiun | hey TMM |
| 17:31.33 | noidd | thanks treke |
| 17:31.45 | noidd | (like thats any ifferent from normal) |
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| 17:48.05 | TheMasterMind1 | would the .21-rc7-ac1 patchset be included in the .21 release |
| 17:49.43 | carsten__ | than? |
| 17:50.03 | TheMasterMind1 | are the ac patchsets incorporated into the kernel when it is released |
| 17:50.42 | carsten__ | 2.4.22 will be out in some weeks |
| 17:52.54 | Twiun | quick question, man -k signal shows output, but man signal doesn't actually show the man page. Is this fixable? |
| 17:59.24 | treke|home | odd |
| 18:00.58 | TheMasterMind1 | laptopkernel needs to seperate out their patches |
| 18:00.59 | TheMasterMind1 | gr |
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| 18:13.37 | Twiun | hmmm, still can't find a reason :( |
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| 18:29.53 | Twiun | and /etc/man.config looks ok |
| 18:31.02 | masticator | oh my god I cant beleive what they did to Ren and Stimpy |
| 18:31.10 | treke|laptop | what did they do? |
| 18:31.18 | masticator | they made them GAY LOVERS |
| 18:32.01 | treke|laptop | interesting |
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| 18:33.06 | masticator | they were, for 10 years |
| 18:33.09 | masticator | there are new ones now |
| 18:33.17 | treke|laptop | thats always a bad idea |
| 18:33.17 | masticator | "Ren and Stimpy Adult Party" |
| 18:33.23 | Twiun | sounds about right... they _were_ up each other's nostrils on a number of occasions |
| 18:33.39 | masticator | well, these are sicker |
| 18:33.51 | masticator | more bodily function humor and sexual overtones |
| 18:34.04 | masticator | on TNN |
| 18:37.41 | Twiun | treke_: for some reason, none of my man dirs have man pages in them... |
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| 20:24.49 | treke|home | mornin zecke |
| 20:26.26 | zecke | hi treke|home |
| 20:26.39 | zecke | it's more like 10 minutes after I went to bed... |
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| 21:03.16 | Error403 | Any ideas why ttySA0 does not work in the latest OpenZaurus? It did in previous releases. It just says "no such device" |
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| 21:05.37 | Error403 | anyone? |
| 21:05.49 | ociocio | dont think so |
| 21:06.01 | nasa | lol |
| 21:06.07 | Error403 | so it seems |
| 21:06.31 | ociocio | dont feel bad, no one can help me either ;) |
| 21:08.41 | Twiun | Error403: are there any other ttyS* devices? |
| 21:08.57 | Error403 | SA0 and 0 |
| 21:08.58 | Error403 | that's it |
| 21:09.13 | Twiun | so /dev/ttySA0 does exist? |
| 21:09.30 | Error403 | it seems it's just ttyS0 that works because my cellphone makes a beep when wvdial accesses it, but it fails to communicate with the phone (it acts as a modem) |
| 21:09.35 | Error403 | it does exist, yes |
| 21:09.47 | Error403 | but it might just be stale from the buildroot |
| 21:10.48 | Twiun | that's very doubtful - the buildroot as is does not populate /dev |
| 21:10.52 | Twiun | that's done on first boot |
| 21:12.08 | *** part/#openembedded nasa (~smithna@pcp68244pcs.parads01.nm.comcast.net) |
| 21:14.21 | Error403 | well, I wish it would work :) |
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| 21:14.58 | Twiun | Error403: what is the output of ls -l /dev/ttySA0 |
| 21:15.34 | Error403 | The major is 204, and minor is 5 |
| 21:15.46 | Error403 | it's not a symlink either |
| 21:16.30 | tgall | anyone here been playing with the new buildroot-oe ? |
| 21:16.59 | Twiun | tgall: noidd, schurig and kergoth iirc |
| 21:17.20 | *** join/#openembedded treke (~ggilbert@12.107.12.130) |
| 21:17.25 | tgall | yeah kergoth is "asleep" at the mo tho... |
| 21:17.34 | tgall | bit late in the day for schurig |
| 21:17.53 | Twiun | tgall: kergoth has no internet connection at home atm, so monday is the next time he'll be on |
| 21:18.13 | tgall | ahhhhh didn't realize that since he moved |
| 21:18.37 | treke | someone obviously doesnt read the news |
| 21:18.46 | Error403 | Twiun: Anything coming to mind? :/ |
| 21:18.57 | tgall | well I've been living under a "rock" so to speak |
| 21:19.08 | tgall | my wife and I just had our first child about a month ago.... |
| 21:19.11 | Twiun | one sec - too many conversations ;) |
| 21:20.41 | Twiun | Error403: what about ttyS0? |
| 21:21.05 | Error403 | 4, 64, not a sym |
| 21:21.23 | Twiun | I'll check mine |
| 21:21.49 | Twiun | hmmm, same as yours |
| 21:22.36 | Twiun | could always try recreating the device |
| 21:22.40 | Twiun | with mknod |
| 21:22.58 | killefiz | does anyone know if the c7xx models are only available japan or also in other (asian) countries? |
| 21:23.32 | Error403 | Twiun: Try cat'ing something to ttySA0 and see if it gives you the "no such device" error |
| 21:23.36 | treke | killefiz: japan only |
| 21:23.42 | Twiun | I imagine they must have made it to taiwan, singapore and hong kong by now |
| 21:23.48 | ociocio | i think other asian countries because there is a .hk website selling them |
| 21:24.18 | Twiun | # cat /etc/passwd > /dev/ttySA0 |
| 21:24.18 | Twiun | cannot create /dev/ttySA0: error 19 |
| 21:24.22 | killefiz | i have a friend in taiwan - he is coming to germany soon and i think i'll make him look for a c760 in the local markets |
| 21:24.45 | Twiun | killefiz: and a few dvd's eh? |
| 21:24.53 | Error403 | Twiun: cannot "create", wtf |
| 21:25.11 | Twiun | Error403: I'm on a stock 3.2 OZ install |
| 21:25.21 | Error403 | hrm |
| 21:25.27 | killefiz | Twiun: i had him send me star wars 4-6 when he was in malaysia - the quality is extremly bad |
| 21:25.29 | Error403 | 5000D or...? |
| 21:25.38 | Twiun | Error403: yup |
| 21:25.45 | Error403 | hrm |
| 21:26.01 | Twiun | haven't got the £££ for any later models yet ;) |
| 21:26.32 | Error403 | ditto |
| 21:26.33 | treke | killefiz: not surprising, when there aren't many high quality sources :p |
| 21:26.55 | Twiun | killefiz: still too much |
| 21:26.59 | killefiz | treke: yes - i think it's a laserdisc rip |
| 21:27.09 | killefiz | ibot: c760 |
| 21:27.10 | | killefiz: parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about |
| 21:27.46 | killefiz | what was the name of the us-company selling the cxxx? |
| 21:27.50 | ociocio | killefiz: i think aroung $600 US |
| 21:28.03 | ociocio | killefiz: dynamism sells them for $800 |
| 21:28.03 | Twiun | killefiz: look them up on the zausur.com forums |
| 21:28.40 | Error403 | Twiun: nm, it is /dev/ttyS0 |
| 21:28.46 | Error403 | my phone is just being a bitch |
| 21:28.56 | Twiun | hehe |
| 21:28.57 | Error403 | I don't think wvdial will work with it |
| 21:28.57 | Twiun | np |
| 21:29.09 | *** join/#openembedded huhnl (~huhnl@12-208-55-237.client.attbi.com) |
| 21:29.18 | Error403 | wvdial is too simple to allow/disallow flow control |
| 21:29.51 | Error403 | Which is unfortunate |
| 21:30.04 | killefiz | ociocio: i think i would buy one for ~600 US |
| 21:30.21 | ociocio | killefiz: me too, if i could sell my ipaq |
| 21:31.30 | killefiz | otoh - i have way to many electronic toys |
| 21:32.09 | treke | killefiz: blasphemy |
| 21:32.59 | ociocio | really, all i want is linux running on my ipaq w/ support for my keyboard and wlan ... familiar moves to slow i think though |
| 21:32.59 | killefiz | treke: you're right - i'll never say that again ;) |
| 21:33.17 | ociocio | killefiz: we'll say you were drunk |
| 21:33.50 | treke | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:34.32 | killefiz | treke: are you referring to the time of day or to the fact that i'm drinking beer? |
| 21:34.48 | ociocio | ah yes, the land of cheap high quality beer and curry wurst |
| 21:34.56 | tgall | least if he's in germany, he's got good beer to drink |
| 21:35.29 | killefiz | you're all invited for some very good beer at this years linuxbierwanderung |
| 21:36.17 | tgall | almost got sent to germany for a month this week ... would be fun! |
| 21:36.50 | killefiz | tgall: to what region? |
| 21:37.35 | tgall | boebligen |
| 21:37.47 | treke | it must be good |
| 21:37.53 | tgall | umm tring to remember which staat that's in |
| 21:37.54 | killefiz | treke: hike |
| 21:38.06 | killefiz | tgall: baden-wuertemberg i think |
| 21:38.15 | ociocio | my brother did a semester in berlin. ide like to go there w/ him sometime |
| 21:38.25 | killefiz | isn't that where ibm germany is located? |
| 21:38.29 | tgall | yup |
| 21:38.42 | killefiz | treke: http://lbw2003.anteus.hu |
| 21:38.54 | killefiz | august 8th - 17th in tajov, slovakia |
| 21:39.00 | Error403 | yay |
| 21:39.02 | Error403 | I got it to work |
| 21:39.09 | Error403 | ttySA0 is depricated |
| 21:39.10 | *** part/#openembedded Error403 (~error403@nwlnmnnas02-pool0-a97.nwlnmn.tds.net) |
| 21:39.44 | fishy | linux beer hike |
| 21:39.47 | *** join/#openembedded TheMasterMind1 (~aman@h-68-166-77-77.MCLNVA23.covad.net) |
| 21:40.11 | fishy | sounds like fun |
| 21:40.35 | killefiz | fishy: it is ;) |
| 21:40.45 | *** mode/#openembedded [+o TheMasterMind1] by ChanServ |
| 21:42.33 | TheMasterMind1 | what is |
| 21:43.11 | ociocio | TheMasterMind1: youre out of your element |
| 21:43.23 | ociocio | sorry, switched into lebowski mode |
| 21:43.57 | treke | TheMasterMind1: Linux Beer Hike |
| 21:44.01 | treke | http://lbw2003.anteus.hu/album.html |
| 21:44.24 | TheMasterMind1 | heh |
| 21:44.25 | TheMasterMind1 | i see |
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