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| 00:20.51 | *** topic/#neo900 is http://neo900.org | CCCAMP15 lightning talks at http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ - major: http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900 | Latest news: http://neo900.org/news/joerg-pia-2018-03-01 |
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| 01:14.48 | houkime | board sizes slight mismatch. UPPER y size is 16 mm and LOWER is 15.75 |
| 01:15.25 | houkime | this will affect connector translation accuracy |
| 01:43.02 | houkime | the same with x size - LOWER is 0.2 mm smaller. |
| 01:43.48 | houkime | It also seems that LOWER was outlined with the greater accuracy so maybe it holds priority here. |
| 02:00.51 | houkime | oh maybe it is actually a bit longer. it has one place when it has a strangely inclined edge and then a pike which makes it 0.35 mm longer than UPPER |
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| 02:15.18 | houkime | scans suggest that 106.3, which is the LOWER length, is a correct one |
| 02:16.16 | houkime | However LOWER shape in that strange region I spoke about is a little bit different so a correction might be needed. |
| 02:17.34 | houkime | also if a complex shae of LOWER is meant to be a guide then making UPPER a little tiny bit smaller should have with compatibility. |
| 02:17.40 | houkime | *help |
| 02:27.04 | houkime | nap |
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| 07:25.55 | itsNotMe_ | Moin, anything there which can be considered as "news" ? What are next steps ? Did someone mentioned a "goal" to reach this year? What is about metacollin ? |
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| 11:32.12 | houkime | itsNotMe_: well, if people need to keep a hand on a pulse, they can checkout my regularly updated issues repo https://notabug.org/Houkime/Neo900-Issues/issues |
| 11:33.43 | houkime | they can also participate in planning stuff via other repo here https://notabug.org/Houkime/Neo900-Planning |
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| 11:36.56 | houkime | they are already usable though I need to provide Contributing guides, links and stuff later. |
| 11:37.19 | houkime | for it to be even easier. |
| 11:43.06 | houkime | Bonus is tthat you can "Watch" repos to receive notifications on email when sth goes on. |
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| 17:19.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder ehat's wrong with neo900's git server |
| 17:19.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | what* |
| 17:19.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | nice interface? |
| 17:19.53 | houkime | issue tracking |
| 17:20.02 | houkime | and nice interface |
| 17:20.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | issue tracking is unrelated to git |
| 17:20.46 | houkime | partly related. They are usually cross-referenced |
| 17:21.02 | houkime | copmmit a fixes issue#23 |
| 17:21.17 | houkime | issue 23 fixed by commit a |
| 17:21.25 | houkime | all hyperlinked and stuff |
| 17:22.07 | houkime | nice interface and merge requests are also important really |
| 17:22.27 | atk | hmm |
| 17:22.29 | houkime | you lower entrance effort this way |
| 17:22.41 | atk | yes but... |
| 17:22.45 | houkime | lower entrance - more people in |
| 17:22.53 | atk | do you really want to lower entrance effort for things like layout? |
| 17:23.27 | atk | The reason why my own server just has cgit and mailing lists is precisely because I want to set the bar of contribution high enough so that I don't have to deal with waste-of-time contributions |
| 17:23.37 | atk | and sure, that may sound ungrateful, but it works |
| 17:24.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ |
| 17:24.17 | atk | It's sort of like having an interview for a job. |
| 17:24.21 | houkime | you ended up with almost no people this way guys |
| 17:25.02 | houkime | besides layouting has nothing to do really with git and commandline skills. You just make things harsh in the wrong spot |
| 17:25.11 | atk | hmm |
| 17:25.33 | houkime | better have formal interviews if you want |
| 17:25.35 | atk | on another note, layout is currently locked down anyway, so making the interface more user friendly to the public won't change much there :P |
| 17:25.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | so when it has nothing to do with git and cmdline, why is a nice git interface important? |
| 17:25.53 | atk | well, the fpds |
| 17:27.09 | atk | but I can look at it |
| 17:27.33 | houkime | nive git interface is important for anything because this is the way people contribute to your project. |
| 17:27.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see how our webgit interface could become more 2user friendly" |
| 17:27.51 | atk | DocScrutinizer05: he means make it work like github |
| 17:28.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | that'S exactly what we won't do |
| 17:28.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | we have gitlab on devuan |
| 17:29.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | how900 implemented it and it served a good deal for issue tracking among those who really were involved with the project |
| 17:30.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the public we have https://neo900.org/git/ee/ |
| 17:30.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you don't really want anonymous push there |
| 17:31.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly since Neo900 UG is a commercial entity |
| 17:31.33 | houkime | Joerg, do you know how gitlab/hub/gogs works? What anonymous pushes? |
| 17:31.45 | houkime | Have you heard about forking and prs? |
| 17:31.52 | houkime | *PRs? |
| 17:32.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | did you ever review a PR of a kicad schematics? |
| 17:32.35 | atk | that's the other issue :P |
| 17:33.34 | houkime | Well, we can write a program for this if this is a program |
| 17:33.38 | houkime | *a problem |
| 17:34.11 | atk | you want to write a kicad schematic merging program? |
| 17:34.19 | houkime | why not? |
| 17:34.31 | houkime | at least i can write a visualiser of a commit |
| 17:34.35 | atk | I mean if that's what you want to do. It just sounds like my personal idea of hell. |
| 17:35.11 | houkime | kicad5 supports scripting |
| 17:35.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | houkime: you're aware we already got eeshow which is as good as it gets regarding that? |
| 17:35.40 | houkime | you can write a script to visually diff a commit on layout |
| 17:35.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | you really seem to have no idea of eeshow |
| 17:36.11 | houkime | I use eeshow all the time, joierg |
| 17:36.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is *exactly* our revolutionary approach to this |
| 17:36.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | you are welcome to extend it to layout |
| 17:37.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | though I think layout is where this concept really reaches its limits, particularly on multilayer |
| 17:37.39 | houkime | The thing is even while you have eeshow, you don't want to people to easily do sch PRs. |
| 17:37.48 | houkime | for some reason |
| 17:37.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | reviewing a layout is difficult enough without showing diffs |
| 17:38.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | because you use kicad5 |
| 17:38.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | a project like this can't use arbitrary versions of tools |
| 17:38.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | thus we decided to use a particular version of kicad4 |
| 17:39.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it was no earlier than metacollin who came up with using kicad5 features not compatible to kicad4 since for layout he claimed those were needed |
| 17:40.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | he however agreed to not edit schematics with kicad5 to keep compatibility there |
| 17:42.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | the schematics are reviewed and "approved", a simple edit of one little detail like a component name, using kicad5, would introduce a diff set that is almost impossible to review and approve for correctness |
| 17:43.19 | houkime | that's why you use a specialised diff viewer |
| 17:43.49 | houkime | that needs to be maintained up to date with tools |
| 17:44.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | we could and actually might eventually migrate to an official kicad5 version for project tool gold standard. That would involve a complete schematics review and would need a kicad5 version considered LTS and stable |
| 17:44.46 | houkime | and that's why you open issues on kicad repos and probably write some code for them yourself. |
| 17:45.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 17:45.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't do kicad development, we use kicad as a tool |
| 17:46.14 | houkime | in oss world unsatisfied users participate in development. Even if it is just an issue opening |
| 17:46.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | you don't contribute to gcc development when you do an arbitrary FOSS project using C lamguage either |
| 17:46.26 | houkime | that's how we roll |
| 17:46.47 | houkime | i DO contrbute if gcc freaks me out |
| 17:46.55 | houkime | that's the thing here |
| 17:47.17 | houkime | right now kicad freaks files out. it is a problem |
| 17:47.35 | houkime | and probably nobody will fix it unless it is highlighted |
| 17:47.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | the thing here is you gues what we did while you have no idea what really ahppened |
| 17:48.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | we DID chat a lot with kicad devels, directly |
| 17:48.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and no, they won't fix each and any nuisance we find in kicad. They did for some |
| 17:49.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | they outright rejected other improvement requests we had |
| 17:49.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise eeshow wouldn't look like it looks now since we had used kicad to generate PDF renders of schematics |
| 17:50.20 | houkime | you did PRs? Or it is just issues that were rejected? |
| 17:50.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | but the cmdline feature of kicad to do so was introduced by "us" (openmoko) several years ago and then got kicked out again by kicad devels and they were not willing to introduce it again |
| 17:52.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm also not really amused you say it's a mandatory skill to get insulted by me when somebody wants to contribute to the project (though you might actualy be right ;-P) |
| 17:52.58 | houkime | do a PR on that. :P |
| 17:53.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm no sw devel, I got no clue about PRs |
| 17:54.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think chat on IRC is actually lower entry hurdles and more user friendly than gitlab issues and pull requests |
| 17:54.31 | houkime | chat on irc is nice. I don't say it needs to be gone |
| 17:55.06 | houkime | just when you have lots of issues and want to organize stuff you don't wanna scroll chalogs and do guesswork |
| 17:55.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody said you should or need to |
| 17:57.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | just right now there's no crew to coordinate, nobody to look at issue tickets and take action on them, and not many issues for such tickets either. If there were, we already have means to deal with this |
| 17:58.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's REALLY URGENTLY needed is a wiki |
| 17:58.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | and maybe a public ML |
| 18:00.42 | houkime | notabug provides wiki for a project although it's not really good like all git wikis. |
| 18:01.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's no such thing like git wiki |
| 18:02.16 | houkime | Oh, i just meant wikis integrated with repos. I remember there were some free wiki services out there. |
| 18:02.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a server called neo900.org that can host whatever wiki you like |
| 18:03.00 | houkime | Who will maintain it? |
| 18:03.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | no me |
| 18:04.12 | atk | I can set up a ML quickly |
| 18:04.18 | atk | mlmmj is great for that |
| 18:04.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | go ahead |
| 18:04.22 | atk | and a ML archive |
| 18:04.42 | atk | maybe not right this moment though, I'll try to remember for tomorrow or this weekend |
| 18:05.08 | houkime | sometimes it's ok to outsource maintainance you know. I could have a self-hosted gogs since it is opensource but chose to use notabug just to save a hurdle. |
| 18:05.10 | atk | And for the wiki, there are ways and means too |
| 18:05.52 | atk | anyway, there's not much maintenance on the server side, only on the content side |
| 18:06.08 | atk | I am lazy so I have perfected the art of setting things up which mostly maintain themselves :P |
| 18:07.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#devuan pkgs |
| 18:07.00 | infobot | it has been said that #devuan packagelist is on our gitlab's group https://git.devuan.org/groups/devuan-packages |
| 18:09.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://i.imgur.com/5c9qTxp.png |
| 18:14.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://i.imgur.com/TG37D12.png |
| 18:18.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not really like there is just a nice gitlab needed to make people come and help. Rather it's like people come and ask how to contribute and then you can point them to whatever gitlab or other resources as needed |
| 18:19.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rather, usually nobody comes and asks. houkime is the last great exception to that rule :-) |
| 18:29.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://i.imgur.com/MAWh84W.png |
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| 19:59.45 | houkime | It is actually both. Making hardships for people on the flat spot doesn't really help anyway. |
| 19:59.56 | houkime | this project is already hard without it |
| 20:02.53 | houkime | Even transparency for potenntial clients is a good enough reason to have nice issue tracking and stuff. |
| 20:04.24 | Airwave | Damn, I seem to have misplaced my N900 stylus |
| 20:05.57 | Airwave | Any place to get a replacement for a somewhat reasonable price? Only thing I found on eBay was a full chassis replacement. |
| 20:10.00 | atk | er... last I remember you could get them easily |
| 20:10.54 | atk | not sure where you live but: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222912008340 |
| 20:14.02 | atk | Airwave: ^ |
| 20:16.25 | Airwave | atk: Ah "touch pen," not "stylus." |
| 20:16.50 | atk | although, I once thought I lost the stylus |
| 20:16.53 | Airwave | Thanks! Although it's actually not much cheaper than the full chassis + stylus. |
| 20:16.56 | atk | and then I found it |
| 20:17.04 | atk | I think you can find cheaper |
| 20:17.12 | atk | but if you get the full chassis then at least you have spare parts |
| 20:17.38 | Airwave | https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290605756894 |
| 20:18.02 | Airwave | I'm 100% sure it's lying around here somewhere. I haven't brought it out of the house since I used it last. |
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| 20:26.12 | Airwave | I thought my device was dead, but fortunately it was just the battery |
| 20:26.19 | Airwave | Thankfully I have three spares |
| 20:31.54 | Airwave | Anyone tried postmarketOS on an N900? |
| 20:34.28 | atk | I tried it |
| 20:34.32 | atk | it's not ready yet |
| 20:34.44 | atk | I don't think they had the graphics driver working to have hildon UI working |
| 20:34.58 | atk | I think they were looking at making hildon UI perform without hwaccel |
| 20:35.36 | atk | I was looking at building the drivers for pmos but their method of building things was horribly annoying |
| 20:35.50 | atk | they use some kind of chroot, I just wanted tooling which I could run via a prefix |
| 20:36.14 | atk | It's like.. I need to make 100s of changes to source and want to just run make |
| 20:36.28 | atk | they recommended using a recipe and ccache |
| 20:41.04 | Airwave | atk: I'm trying Hildon now. I can't get anything to work. |
| 20:41.13 | atk | yeah |
| 20:41.15 | atk | that was my experience |
| 20:41.38 | Airwave | I can't even shut it down. Any way to do that without taking out the battery? |
| 20:41.48 | atk | take out the battery |
| 20:41.53 | Airwave | Okay |
| 20:41.54 | atk | or run it flat |
| 20:42.35 | Airwave | Haha I'll take out the battery then. Thanks. |
| 20:42.50 | Airwave | Hmm let's see, what other UI could I try other than Hildon? |
| 20:43.14 | Airwave | Maybe Matchbox? |
| 20:43.21 | Airwave | Or just none. A TTY would be fine just to test this out. |
| 20:51.26 | atk | the other UI they provide is some wayland based thing |
| 20:51.44 | atk | but I agree, just a TTY would be nice to begin with |
| 20:51.58 | atk | heck, you can implement a phone interface in a TTY |
| 20:53.24 | Airwave | I forgot this thing can't do 5 GHz WiFi |
| 20:53.30 | Airwave | I don't have 2.4 GHz at home anymore |
| 20:54.22 | Airwave | I guess you can't really do much with this phone anymore |
| 20:55.17 | Airwave | I hope Neo900 becomes a reality. Apart from the display being maybe a little small and a front camera missing, this phone has a perfect form factor. |
| 20:57.13 | xmn | I wouldn't say you can't do much with it. You just need to be more specific with what you do. I use my phone every day and have 2.4 and 5ghz at home. So it can be done. |
| 20:57.36 | atk | Airwave: N900 is my daily driver phone |
| 20:58.06 | atk | I use it for in car navigation, I use it for the usual phone stuff, I use the calendar, I use the email functionality |
| 20:58.14 | atk | Even the web browser gets use |
| 20:58.20 | xmn | ^ |
| 20:58.29 | Airwave | What do you guys run on it? Maemo? |
| 20:58.42 | xmn | I set up owncloud for it so syncing great |
| 20:58.53 | xmn | maemo of course :D |
| 20:59.06 | atk | maemo |
| 20:59.10 | atk | cssu |
| 20:59.22 | xmn | I mean why else stay with it beside the keyboard |
| 20:59.50 | Airwave | The keyboard is what I love about it |
| 21:00.03 | xmn | There are pains sometime, but there is usually a way around most problems |
| 21:00.20 | Airwave | What's the newest TLS version it supports? |
| 21:00.21 | xmn | And if you know programming your in even better shape |
| 21:01.00 | atk | the TLS support is becoming a problem, but a guy from #maemo-leste is working on some solution |
| 21:01.14 | atk | and another guy from #maemo-leste made a good suggestion for a temporary fix |
| 21:01.38 | atk | make a mitm proxy for yourself and use a statically compiled proxy server which supports newer TLS |
| 21:01.54 | atk | just need a self signed cert in the cert store |
| 21:02.08 | atk | I might look at that at some point in the future |
| 21:02.38 | DocScrutinizer51 | shut down should work with 10s power button |
| 21:02.57 | DocScrutinizer51 | unless kernel cancels the hw timer |
| 21:03.01 | Airwave | Android has made my standards pretty low from what I want from a smartphone |
| 21:03.07 | Airwave | for* |
| 21:03.24 | atk | I went from Oneplus One to N900 :P |
| 21:03.28 | atk | I was that annoyed with android |
| 21:04.10 | DocScrutinizer51 | I can see why |
| 21:04.17 | Airwave | CardDAV contact sync, OSM navigation, and Signal |
| 21:04.46 | Airwave | I make sure I have those three, then I try to maximize freedom, and lastly anything extra is just gravy |
| 21:05.31 | Airwave | So with that in mind, my daily driver for the last five years has been a Samsung Galaxy S3 running CyanogenMod and now LineageOS. |
| 21:05.48 | atk | for navigation I have modrana with google's routing servers and OSM maps, but I might try to get on-the-phone routing working |
| 21:08.47 | xmn | I'm still using built maps :) |
| 21:09.07 | xmn | interesting that you went from one+ to n900 |
| 21:16.02 | Joerg-Neo900 | houkime: we have nice issue tracking, I pointed you to it. You were not happy with that either |
| 21:16.46 | Joerg-Neo900 | I'm not too confortable with this constant criticism |
| 21:18.58 | houkime | I wasn't first of all because it is not subscribable (at least I haven't found a way to do it which means people are not likely to) + many other small things. |
| 21:19.53 | houkime | My idea was to make an issue board our main pulse monitor. That's why subscription is important. |
| 21:20.11 | Joerg-Neo900 | well, others found out how to register and contribute |
| 21:21.19 | houkime | I mean to have nice email notifications about any issue progress as a newsfeed. |
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| 21:21.32 | Joerg-Neo900 | ohmy |
| 21:21.46 | houkime | a publicity thing |
| 21:22.29 | houkime | very comfortable by the way. That's how you track interesting project on github and likes. |
| 21:22.42 | Joerg-Neo900 | I get email notifications and if you need someting else then maybe you need to create your own tracker |
| 21:23.31 | Joerg-Neo900 | we're not using github and for a number of good reasons, some of which happened sooner than I anticipated (last week?) |
| 21:24.14 | houkime | well, I'm not using github either. I consider notabug a safe enough community project unlike others. |
| 21:28.57 | houkime | besides, gogs can be self-hosted and it is opensource |
| 21:29.08 | Joerg-Neo900 | so what? |
| 21:29.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | we got everything you asked for |
| 21:30.15 | Joerg-Neo900 | just not in the tools you prefer. sorry we won't change tools twice a month, depending on who pushes what |
| 21:30.44 | houkime | I'm thinking about people right now. And right now people is what you lack. |
| 21:30.47 | Joerg-Neo900 | what we need is a wiki |
| 21:31.57 | houkime | I want everything to be as easy and comfy as possible. That's how you get more people. |
| 21:32.10 | Joerg-Neo900 | I disagree |
| 21:32.35 | houkime | We're not in a situation to make a proud pose and set high barriers. |
| 21:33.30 | Joerg-Neo900 | sorry I won't invest any more of my time into that. We wasted pronanly like one manyear into exactly such considerations and developments |
| 21:33.43 | *** join/#neo900 jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-80-219.tpgi.com.au) |
| 21:33.53 | houkime | Maybe you won't. I will however. |
| 21:34.04 | Joerg-Neo900 | you're free to do that |
| 21:35.07 | Joerg-Neo900 | I've not seen a single person who came asking to volunteer and then went off complaining about unconfortable issue tracker |
| 21:35.46 | houkime | because it is an issue tracker that makes people to will to volunteer. |
| 21:35.58 | Joerg-Neo900 | you're actually the first one who complains about that, except the 3 or 4 internal trackers we already used, for administration etc pp |
| 21:36.13 | Joerg-Neo900 | ohmy |
| 21:36.38 | Joerg-Neo900 | yet to be proven |
| 21:37.23 | Joerg-Neo900 | this is not a FOSS project, it's about hardware |
| 21:37.56 | houkime | it doesn't matter. It is about your attitude towards the work you're doing and towards people and customers. |
| 21:38.31 | Joerg-Neo900 | show me the issue/ticket that would make people contribute when published on gitlab but can't be done on our infra we alrady got |
| 21:39.06 | Joerg-Neo900 | aha now it's my attitude that shows in my selection of tools? |
| 21:39.19 | houkime | Freaking yes. |
| 21:39.30 | Joerg-Neo900 | sorry I'm out here |
| 21:39.53 | houkime | bye |
| 21:57.40 | *** join/#neo900 pagurus (~user@i59F6049F.versanet.de) |
| 22:02.05 | Joerg-Neo900 | to summarize: [2018-06-13 23:18:58] <houkime> I wasn't first of all because it is not subscribable (at least I haven't found a way to do it which means people are not likely to) + many other small things. [...] subscription is important. <houkime> I mean to have nice email notifications about any issue progress <Joerg-Neo900> I get email notifications <houkime> I'm thinking about people right now <houkime> We're not in a situation to make a |
| 22:02.07 | Joerg-Neo900 | proud pose and set high barriers. [...] It is about your attitude towards the work you're doing |
| 22:04.07 | Joerg-Neo900 | I think my attitude towards what I'm doing is OK. If you think it isn't then sorry, it probably won't change |
| 22:08.36 | houkime | http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/ Where do you see a button to subscribe, Joerg? |
| 22:09.24 | houkime | and I do have an account there. |
| 22:12.04 | houkime | well. The thing is I don't really ask you to do anything since i have already learnt that it is futile. |
| 22:12.52 | houkime | I do everything myself. You just asked what is wrong with the way it is now. |
| 22:15.41 | Joerg-Neo900 | it's definitely futile to insult me |
| 22:19.01 | houkime | Sorry for that. Though I don't have real anger problems anymore irritation makes me straightforward. |
| 22:20.47 | houkime | +1 to make things comfy so people are less nervous. |
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| 22:40.42 | *** join/#neo900 xmn (~xman@user-0cdft2n.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 23:38.57 | *** join/#neo900 louisdk (~louisdk@static-5-103-138-205.ip.fibianet.dk) |
