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| 00:19.06 | *** topic/#neo900 is http://neo900.org | CCCAMP15 lightning talks at http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ - major: http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900 |
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| 17:15.34 | ndnihil | sooo, can I order yet? I'm down to my last droid4 |
| 17:15.36 | ndnihil | :) |
| 17:18.23 | Joerg-Neo900 | you can order since over a year. And you probably can NOT order anymore when we have started production, since we can't afford building for the shelf |
| 17:19.37 | ndnihil | so spares are going to be nonexistent? |
| 17:19.49 | Joerg-Neo900 | this is not the usual "big company builds a masss market product" |
| 17:19.58 | ndnihil | yeah I know, been following this since day 1 |
| 17:20.01 | Joerg-Neo900 | spares are for spare |
| 17:20.05 | ndnihil | have a gta02, and n900, etc... |
| 17:20.37 | ndnihil | been modding phones since analog days, and was relatively well known for p2k stuff |
| 17:22.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | we're going to build strictly to order, customized version for each of our customers |
| 17:22.35 | ndnihil | is that a good idea, business-wise? |
| 17:22.53 | Joerg-Neo900 | do you have a better idea? |
| 17:23.18 | ndnihil | standardization has always shown itself to be more sustainable |
| 17:23.33 | ndnihil | dont get me wrong, like the boutique concept |
| 17:23.53 | Joerg-Neo900 | or do you maybe have a USD 50k or 100k or 500k to invest? |
| 17:23.57 | ndnihil | but it's not very profitable unless you have the marketing, and generally doesn't last long |
| 17:25.14 | ndnihil | kickstarter didn't do it? |
| 17:25.37 | Joerg-Neo900 | this *is* *no* big company driving this project. and there are no funds for doing that type of thing you suggest |
| 17:26.04 | ndnihil | so there's funds to customize each order, but not to standardize? |
| 17:26.22 | Joerg-Neo900 | 42 |
| 17:26.54 | ndnihil | ... |
| 17:26.59 | Joerg-Neo900 | you're implying incorrect |
| 17:27.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | there's no more funds to pay my own flat rent |
| 17:28.02 | ndnihil | you do realize it costs more to develop multiple versions of something, than to develop one, right? |
| 17:28.29 | Joerg-Neo900 | you realize we are working on this since quite a while and we did a lot of business planning? |
| 17:28.39 | ndnihil | oh yeah, I know how long this has been going on |
| 17:28.45 | ndnihil | been itching to see it happen for years now |
| 17:29.15 | Joerg-Neo900 | sorry, I feel a little grumpy about this discussion |
| 17:29.20 | ndnihil | I noticed |
| 17:29.25 | atk | The customisation is just the modem isn't it? |
| 17:29.32 | Joerg-Neo900 | yes |
| 17:29.38 | atk | And the interface to that is pretty much standardised. |
| 17:29.44 | Joerg-Neo900 | yes |
| 17:29.54 | atk | So the standardisation is there, the customisation doesn't raise the costs in reality. |
| 17:30.03 | Joerg-Neo900 | not at all |
| 17:30.09 | atk | ndnihil: now you have your answer |
| 17:30.10 | Joerg-Neo900 | except for planning the spares |
| 17:30.21 | ndnihil | if it's just the modem, and there aren't any/many special concessions for the modem change, that's not a huge deal |
| 17:31.34 | ndnihil | no offense, but I do question whether it's going to happen before it's completely obsolete though |
| 17:34.13 | Joerg-Neo900 | not if everybody waits with their preorder until we built the device for them. We don't have the funds to do that |
| 17:35.05 | ndnihil | on the other hand, I personally have lost thousands of dollars on preorder and crowdfunding things that never made it through |
| 17:35.26 | Joerg-Neo900 | that's the risk with crowdfunding |
| 17:35.44 | ndnihil | it is, and I'm not complaining about it, just saying it's a reason to be cautious |
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| 17:36.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | but ignoring the fact that this IS crowdfunding won't turn the project into something different |
| 17:36.04 | ndnihil | I knew the risks and I never funded or preordered anything I wasn't prepared to gamble away the price on |
| 17:38.06 | Joerg-Neo900 | we made the schematics and the component sourcing, and we're starting layout of proto_v2. And it seems like we _have_ to go kickstarter or similar when we have proto_v2 to show off |
| 17:38.31 | ndnihil | yeah, having something tangible to show will help a lot |
| 17:39.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | since our own crowdfunding isn't reaching its numbers because it seems everybody waiting for sales starting to do their preorder |
| 17:39.52 | ndnihil | yeah, I'm in that camp |
| 17:40.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | won't happen |
| 17:40.19 | ndnihil | generally when I get the "need a new phone" itch, it's because I'm out of spares and wanting to try something new |
| 17:40.23 | Joerg-Neo900 | sales already started, when we start production, sales will close |
| 17:41.01 | ndnihil | yeah, that approach probably isn't going to work for me (or many others) |
| 17:41.08 | Joerg-Neo900 | or rather, we will offer a crowdfunding for batch2, with odds it never will reach the goal |
| 17:41.52 | Joerg-Neo900 | or we go VC then, and turn into a more 'normal' commercial company |
| 17:42.01 | ndnihil | in the modern world, phones are a consumable commodity |
| 17:42.07 | Joerg-Neo900 | but then for STEP2 device already |
| 17:42.22 | ndnihil | paying a premium for a one-time thing isn't going to appeal to a lot of the market |
| 17:42.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | this is not what Neo900 philosophy is complying with, we want to make stuff with a lasting value |
| 17:43.10 | ndnihil | I get that, and you get that, and a handful of other people might get that |
| 17:43.22 | ndnihil | but 99.9999999% of the market doesn't get that |
| 17:43.27 | ndnihil | and that's where the money comes from |
| 17:43.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | yes, we been there, discussed all that. Do you have a better idea? |
| 17:43.48 | ndnihil | well, I have other ideas |
| 17:43.54 | ndnihil | "better" is a matter of opinion |
| 17:44.05 | Joerg-Neo900 | sure |
| 17:44.21 | ndnihil | I've built halfassed phones |
| 17:44.24 | Joerg-Neo900 | I'm always open to discussing all sorts of ideas |
| 17:44.43 | ndnihil | random cell module+bare avr, random cell module+pi, etc... |
| 17:44.46 | Joerg-Neo900 | but so far I didn't hear any |
| 17:44.51 | ndnihil | well |
| 17:45.03 | ndnihil | personally I wouldn't have relied on n900 parts |
| 17:45.13 | ndnihil | it's a great little phone, I love mine |
| 17:45.24 | ndnihil | but it's a bit outdated for the current market |
| 17:45.35 | Joerg-Neo900 | yeah sure. IF we could afford, we also had made our own case and display |
| 17:45.59 | Joerg-Neo900 | just and me a USD 500k and tomorrow we start with doing that |
| 17:46.03 | ndnihil | lol |
| 17:46.23 | ndnihil | if I had $500k laying around, I'd have more cars |
| 17:46.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | Hand me* |
| 17:46.55 | Joerg-Neo900 | so where's the alternative idea? I'm still listening |
| 17:47.48 | ndnihil | stackable modules |
| 17:48.09 | Joerg-Neo900 | I'm really more than willing to listen to any ideas that have potential to improve our situation |
| 17:48.17 | ndnihil | futureproof it by making each relevant component upgradable individually |
| 17:48.28 | ndnihil | and letting the end user tailor it to their needs |
| 17:48.39 | freemangordon | ndnihil: that costs money, lots of |
| 17:48.44 | ndnihil | nothing I say is going to be anything short of a complete redesign |
| 17:48.45 | Joerg-Neo900 | meh, that's BLOKS and never worked even for Google |
| 17:49.00 | Joerg-Neo900 | aka Project Ara |
| 17:49.03 | freemangordon | those 500k won't suffice for even start |
| 17:49.26 | ndnihil | that's big production costs though |
| 17:49.30 | freemangordon | Joerg-Neo900: any clue why they gave up? |
| 17:49.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | unfeasible |
| 17:49.41 | freemangordon | too bulky? |
| 17:49.41 | ndnihil | you can one-off it for a couple grand tops |
| 17:49.50 | Joerg-Neo900 | as a lot of us predicted from beginning |
| 17:50.00 | ndnihil | not including dev time of course |
| 17:50.30 | Joerg-Neo900 | BLOKS always been a pipe dream, for very sound reasons |
| 17:51.08 | ndnihil | bloks was interesting, but the physical design was kinda crap |
| 17:51.22 | Joerg-Neo900 | a handful of companies incl Motorole(?) and Google tried and finally failed |
| 17:51.50 | Joerg-Neo900 | it was plain to see that it never will fly |
| 17:52.03 | Joerg-Neo900 | for the very reasons YOU gave above |
| 17:52.11 | Joerg-Neo900 | among others |
| 17:52.34 | ndnihil | they were aiming a prosumer/tinkerer device at mass market |
| 17:52.40 | ndnihil | that's not going to work |
| 17:54.48 | ndnihil | think of such a phone as a DSLR |
| 17:55.06 | ndnihil | only a small percentage of the market is going to want the extra grunt for the premium price |
| 17:55.23 | ndnihil | but the ones that do know that it's worth it |
| 17:55.37 | ndnihil | they're a little more bulky, but a lot more powerful |
| 17:56.43 | Joerg-Neo900 | there are other more physical reasons. Let me quoze just one of them: case tooling, development and B2B connectors and mech locks for a WLAN module: $30 per module plus $30 for the WLAN chip. Same WLAN chip integrated into a non-modular design: $30 or even less thanks to synergies in circuitry. Same WLAN functionality integrated into the SoC (just like BT, modem, whatnot nowadays): 2$ |
| 17:57.41 | ndnihil | case tooling is a huge cost, and easily thwarted |
| 17:57.42 | Joerg-Neo900 | and sorry, that's correctly "a damn lot more bulky, and actually hardly more powerful at all" |
| 17:58.05 | ndnihil | additive manufacturing has seen to that |
| 17:58.30 | ndnihil | even if it's too finicky for the average home 3d printer, places like shapeways with their industrial SLS can handle it |
| 17:59.20 | Joerg-Neo900 | I'f like to tell you about all the stuff we found when we been exactly there years ago, but I don't have the time tight now for that |
| 17:59.20 | ndnihil | the days of paying $20k for a mold and $5k for a run of 5 thousand objects are gone |
| 17:59.23 | ndnihil | unless you're big scale |
| 18:00.46 | Joerg-Neo900 | making a one-off aka "additive production" of a case the quality and complicated details of e.g. N900 takes way more than 100 bucks for each item |
| 18:01.38 | ndnihil | I know it's crazy expensive, hell I have a simple desktop stand for a scanner up on shapeways |
| 18:01.49 | ndnihil | and they're charging $56 without me making a single penny off it |
| 18:01.52 | Joerg-Neo900 | I know of production cost and (feeble) complexity of Neo Freerunner cases, for different production methods |
| 18:02.20 | ndnihil | I need to redesign it for SLS rather than the FDM I was originally using |
| 18:02.25 | ndnihil | should be able to get it down to half that |
| 18:03.19 | ndnihil | https://www.shapeways.com/product/BCQQJF3SX/bcd436hp-desktop-base-stand |
| 18:03.22 | ndnihil | totally overpriced right? |
| 18:03.41 | Joerg-Neo900 | you know, we (Werner and me, and Nikolaus too) already been exactly there with Openmoko and GTA04, and it been exactly this that triggered the Neo900 to start with |
| 18:04.05 | Joerg-Neo900 | cheers |
| 18:04.12 | Joerg-Neo900 | bbl |
| 18:04.46 | Joerg-Neo900 | shapeways can hardly do better than 0.2mm precision |
| 18:05.00 | ndnihil | design for the process |
| 18:05.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | go ahead, do it! |
| 18:05.35 | ndnihil | trying to mimic the super slim fit press to latch commercial stuff is going to cost out the ass |
| 18:06.49 | ndnihil | a little extra bulk, looser tolerances, and clever arrangement can help that though |
| 18:07.26 | ndnihil | the market has shown that people don't mind carrying around giant phones, as long as they think it's cool enough |
| 18:07.36 | ndnihil | christ modern phones may as well just be tablets |
| 18:07.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | pir https://www.ixquick.com/do/search?q=Neo+Freerunner&nj=0&cat=pics will look sleek in comparison when you achive to come up with something |
| 18:07.52 | ndnihil | +1 for ixquick |
| 18:07.53 | Joerg-Neo900 | our* |
| 18:08.05 | ndnihil | and I have a gta02 sitting 3ft from me |
| 18:08.19 | ndnihil | maybe 4 |
| 18:09.35 | ndnihil | https://old.ndnihil.org/misc/frstand/frstand01.jpg |
| 18:09.45 | ndnihil | even still have it on the stand I made for it |
| 18:10.49 | Joerg-Neo900 | LOL https://gvsigmobileonopenmoko.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/recommended-settings-to-run-java-applications-on-the-neo-freerunner-phone-shr-jalimo/ device 81, need to check if that ended in my shoebox |
| 18:11.08 | ndnihil | lol |
| 18:11.12 | ndnihil | write once, run nowhere |
| 18:14.46 | ndnihil | on a tangent |
| 18:15.11 | ndnihil | you do much soldering of tiny stuff? |
| 18:15.44 | ndnihil | https://old.ndnihil.org/misc/20170416_165627.jpg |
| 18:15.52 | ndnihil | https://old.ndnihil.org/misc/DSCN2997.JPG |
| 18:16.00 | ndnihil | can not for the life of me get that lug back on |
| 18:16.16 | ndnihil | not with iron, not with reflow |
| 18:16.25 | ndnihil | not even a massive pre-heat of the lug |
| 18:17.01 | ndnihil | even getting desoldering wick to stick to it is halfassed and mimics a cold joint |
| 18:18.05 | Joerg-Neo900 | that's tiny stuff? ;-P Well anyway I can't comment, the photos don't provide sufficient info to start thinking about it |
| 18:18.36 | ndnihil | hey, most of my stuff is still through-hole :) |
| 18:18.50 | ndnihil | hell, I still dremel traces onto boards |
| 18:19.01 | Joerg-Neo900 | hehe |
| 18:19.09 | Joerg-Neo900 | o/ l8rs |
| 18:19.14 | ndnihil | later |
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