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| 00:33.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, we don't do software (unless we need it for BSP) |
| 00:49.09 | chomwitt1 | BSP? |
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| 00:58.56 | chomwitt1 | so i guess on of the prerequisites for selecting a subsystem is to have already a linux driver. |
| 00:59.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | that largely depends on the subsystem |
| 01:03.47 | chomwitt1 | what linux kernel you use to test a fully equiped prototype? |
| 01:04.24 | chomwitt1 | i mean it's a customed one loaded with the 'drivers' taken from all the subsystem's syppliers? |
| 01:04.55 | chomwitt1 | or as someone said most drivers are in mainline kernel. |
| 01:04.59 | chomwitt1 | ? |
| 01:06.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's no such thing like "subsystem suppliers" |
| 01:06.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | all drivers are either in mainline or not existing (for the few things we invented completely anew ourselves) |
| 01:07.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | modem basically has a tty_acm device interface |
| 01:07.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | other chips have their own drivers in mainline usually |
| 01:08.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | or we need to adapt existing drivers to the particular circuit we use that chip in |
| 01:10.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((things we invented completely anew)) ... will base on existing kernel drivers though, e.g. on drivers for GPIO and ADCIN in twl4030 |
| 01:11.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | so those drivers are tier 2, usinf existing generic drivers as their interface to the hw |
| 01:11.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | many drivers will use I2C driver to talk to a chip |
| 01:13.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | e.g our IO-extenders will use I2C driver and a generic IRQ handler to provide /sys/*/*/gpio-switch/* |
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| 01:15.32 | chomwitt1 | DocScrutinizer05: i'm trying to clear in my head the general picture of things in software side. So since driver's get 'customized' or changed a little all those little changes are pushed mainline again ? and u use a mainline kernel for testing? |
| 01:18.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | please understand that Neo900 UG doesn't do software development. We might provide proof-of-concept aka reference implementations for some drivers that might be needed since there's no generic way to access the subsystem. But we won't upstream those, this is a task of community and experts for that stuff in there |
| 01:18.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually I dunno if there's any such special subsystem in our design that needs such special driver |
| 01:20.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | all the chips we use have published docs, so odds are somebody wrote a driver for them |
| 01:22.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | when we combine multiple chips into a complex subsystem, then the specialized driver for such complex subsystem is just a convenience thing, since all the functions consist of basic APIs for GPIO or I2C or whatever |
| 01:23.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the modem Gemalto provides linux drivers |
| 01:23.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | for WLAN and BT TI provides all the needed firmware and driversa |
| 01:25.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | for OMAP3730 all drivers exist and are prolly upstreamed, same for display etc. Dunno about the CRtouch12 touchscreen chip, I guess at least they already wrote something for Pyra at least since it uses same chip |
| 01:26.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise somebody has to grab the hardware/chip datasheet and write a driver from scratch |
| 01:27.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | highly unlikely this will be needed |
| 01:27.56 | chomwitt1 | DocScrutinizer05: ok. i got the part that u do the hardware part. but my question is (in simple terms -cause that's my view although i am computer sciense graduate- )dont you do tests for example running debian with a kernel you wont to see if you can tune to FM station (for example) ? |
| 01:28.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno if there are specialized driver for e.g. 9-axis sensor or hygro/baro sensor. All those chips are I2C so you could talk to them via i2cget/i2cset |
| 01:28.40 | chomwitt1 | wont->want |
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| 01:30.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | FM chip is attached by I2C, it can completely get operated by a shell script consisting of i2cset/i2cget commands. If you want a more convenient driver, you (or we) most likely will find one upstream |
| 01:31.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | we won't write a driver providing e.g. /sys/devices/FMradio/frequency |
| 01:32.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | we rather do a i2cset 02 0x34 112 to tune the chip to 112 MHz |
| 01:33.04 | chomwitt1 | so you do low-level testing |
| 01:33.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 01:33.25 | chomwitt1 | not from a user-space perpespective |
| 01:33.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | tier2 is convenience |
| 01:33.38 | chomwitt1 | tier2? |
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| 01:34.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | drivers interfacing to other drivers (like I2C bus driver) to do their thing |
| 01:34.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | we want to test the hardware, not the tier2 drivers |
| 01:35.07 | chomwitt1 | arent u qurious to test sth like Tui to your prototype boards to play with it as user ? |
| 01:35.18 | chomwitt1 | qurious -> curious |
| 01:35.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | though, most likely there are tier2 drivers for all our subsystems already |
| 01:36.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, I don't have the luxury to be curious during development |
| 01:36.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | all that stuff gets handled by community |
| 01:36.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | my job is debugging the hardware, and for that the more immediate the interface, the better |
| 01:38.07 | chomwitt1 | ok i appreciate that you let me understand some aspects of the project. |
| 01:38.23 | chomwitt1 | ..that i wasnt aware off |
| 01:38.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | with a i2cset 02 0x34 112 I get immediate feedback if the register write worked, and I can read another register to see the results (like signal strength of the broadcast station). With a conevnient high abstraction layer driver that gets pretty awkward |
| 01:40.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | when I do a echo 112 >/dev/fm/frequency and then a cat /dev/fm/signal and there's -55 as result, I don't know if the chip is defect or the driver flawed |
| 01:41.07 | chomwitt1 | when u say that 'tier2 is a convenience' u mean that a tier2 driver is sth you write to automate things you can already do with tier1 drivers in order to save time ? |
| 01:41.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't get me wrong, as long as there are known-to-work upstream high abstraction drivers, we will of course use them |
| 01:41.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically yes |
| 01:41.58 | chomwitt1 | i see |
| 01:42.58 | chomwitt1 | is there a member of the community that doest the user-space testing i reffered to earlier? |
| 01:44.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | a N900 maemo example: there was a *userland* daemon to talk to the charger chip. It's closed source and we couldn't really use it for anything with N900. I investigated which chip is used and how it works and came up with |
| 01:44.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~12charge |
| 01:44.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | err |
| 01:45.08 | Oksana | ~123charge |
| 01:45.45 | Oksana | made random guess... infobot is here, yes |
| 01:46.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/charge21_500mA-USBlimit__UNTESTED.sh |
| 01:46.36 | chomwitt1 | so in that case the hardware (charger) had opened-specs in order to talk to it in tier1-way but that tier2 driver that existed was a blob with which you couldnt work . is that a valid picture ? |
| 01:47.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | in Neo900 we do the inverse thing, starting with simple scripts based on the known chips and their docs, and leave it to the community to find or write the high level stuff that deals with those chips |
| 01:47.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, correct picture |
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| 01:49.06 | chomwitt1 | that usb-charger script seems cool. i'll try it to my n900 !! :-) |
| 01:49.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously a decent driver for USB charging needs to do a lot of nasty stuff liketalk to USB host and ENUM and negotiate charge current, etc |
| 01:50.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~bme |
| 01:50.36 | infobot | [bme] http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME |
| 01:51.51 | chomwitt1 | dont you thing that a user-space testing process embedded in your's project workflow could help raise higher the awereness and willingless of the community to come closer to the project. i mean i'd love to see sth like 'a user-space testing blog-diary thing' |
| 01:56.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | we will ship the complete factory hw test job, so user can rerun it as well as learn from it how stuff works |
| 01:57.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | the "user-space testing diary" is something our community sw devels like pali and freemangordon will do |
| 01:57.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~fptf |
| 01:57.15 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 |
| 01:58.45 | chomwitt1 | n900 and neo900 share hardware ? i mean the BME u referred to could be used in neo900 too ? |
| 01:59.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | or actually, I'll also publish some post about the resukts of hw intergity and operation tests in prototypes |
| 01:59.22 | chomwitt1 | cool . looking forward then to pali and freemangordon tests ! |
| 01:59.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, Neo900 has a way smarter charger chip that doesn't need any driver to do its job. Though you can have a driver to mess with it to your liking |
| 02:01.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | and since the chip is similar but different to the one used in N900, you can't use the closed BME blob for it |
| 02:01.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're lucky pali already coded a FOSS BME replacement ;-) |
| 02:02.14 | chomwitt1 | ~fptf |
| 02:02.14 | infobot | i guess fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 |
| 02:02.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is a decent kernel driver (not userland), and allows easy adaption to the chip used in Neo900 |
| 02:02.25 | chomwitt1 | cool bot!! :-) |
| 02:02.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~botsnack |
| 02:02.49 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: :) |
| 02:03.12 | chomwitt1 | ~botbeer |
| 02:03.12 | infobot | ACTION whips out the beer bong. |
| 02:03.20 | chomwitt1 | :-) |
| 02:03.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~query |
| 02:03.37 | infobot | talk dirty to me! Preferably, do so after you have typed "/query infobot" which should open a new window/tab/whatever with most irc clients. You can talk to me all you like and don't annoy other people with endless queries. Be aware that the stuff you write is logged, so don't get too 1337 :) |
| 02:05.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | afk for an hour |
| 02:05.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ |
| 02:06.02 | chomwitt1 | wow... infobot is 900 years old ! like yoda!! :-) |
| 02:06.08 | chomwitt1 | bye |
| 02:06.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | only 18 iirc |
| 02:06.38 | chomwitt1 | send kudos to DocScrutinizer05 for the developer's feedback |
| 02:20.50 | wpwrak | chomwitt1:: BSP = board support package. basically some core system that that runs on a platform and uses (most of) its hardware. sort of a proof of concept. |
| 02:22.11 | wpwrak | chomwitt1: the idea is to have some rudimentary devuan that can boot and then run production tests. (i.e., tests that confirm the presence of all chips and a little more) |
| 02:28.25 | wpwrak | (brexit) 70.69% turnout. i think that alone deserves celebration. 49.8:50.2%. interesting. has peru set an example ? there, it ended 49.87:50.12% ;-) |
| 03:06.48 | wpwrak | funny. bbc has an interview with a young woman (pro-remain) who participated in some erasmus (eu student exchange) program. she studies politics. they raise the point that erasmus would be a thing of the past if leave wins. she didn't disagree. now, i wonder if all the erasmus students we had in lausanne were just a figment of my imagination ;-) |
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| 05:00.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | (([2016-06-23 Thu 15:51:46] <DocScrutinizer05> TV news just claim an expected 15% loss of GBP vs EUR. EUR will also suffer, but less)) http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=EURUSD=X http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GBPUSD=X |
| 05:03.18 | wpwrak | sure. it's a change and the establishment called it wrong. so there'll be a bit of noise. give it a week or two and it'll be back to normal. besides, a low pound if good for Uk exports, right ? ;-) |
| 05:05.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | we'll see |
| 05:05.55 | wpwrak | all this looks very similar to when switzerland voted against joining the EU. there were also predictions of doom and isolation. none of it came true. of course, the other side exaggerated as well. but in the end it's more a question of whether you want to cooperate. if yes, you can figure out a way to do it. |
| 05:06.05 | end1 | independent scotland, reunited ireland and maybe independent wales |
| 05:06.13 | end1 | yay. |
| 05:06.38 | end1 | switzerland voted if they want into the EU |
| 05:06.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | farewel Britain, hello Scotland |
| 05:06.50 | end1 | GB was 43 years in the EU |
| 05:07.01 | end1 | the financial structures are designed for beign in the EU |
| 05:07.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly, a tiny but relevant difference |
| 05:07.11 | wpwrak | end1: yeah, there may be quite some aftershocks. but let's see. now there's a lot of excitement, but that won't last forever. |
| 05:07.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, it will turn into constant agony |
| 05:07.47 | wpwrak | end1: i'm sure the swiss will be happy to help you out if you need some blueprints ;-) |
| 05:08.04 | end1 | as i said |
| 05:08.14 | end1 | the swiss situation is a completely different |
| 05:08.23 | end1 | furthermore the swiss are not on a fucking ISLAND |
| 05:08.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and Swiss economy always been chocolate and gold, right? |
| 05:09.14 | end1 | north ireland is completely cut off, therefore it has to join ireland |
| 05:09.23 | end1 | literally |
| 05:09.56 | wpwrak | end1: what i mean is that EU and switzerland have good relations and that the contractual frameworks for this are in place. so if there's something the UK couldn't figure out on their own (rather unlikely, but let's assume it for the sake of argument) then they could look there for well-established precedent |
| 05:10.46 | end1 | wpwrak: they will not get the financial benefits from being in the EU. |
| 05:10.46 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: banks, pharmaceutics, banks, watches, banks, chocolate, banks, cheese, banks, tech, did i mention banks ? |
| 05:11.08 | end1 | the market will not be the same |
| 05:11.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | I doubt the English will do that, they are too ego |
| 05:11.17 | end1 | and not in favour of GB |
| 05:11.36 | end1 | wpwrak: and it will cost money changing the contracts |
| 05:11.46 | end1 | and they lose their special role in the EU |
| 05:11.59 | end1 | they had so many special ways just for them |
| 05:12.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah!!! \o/ finally |
| 05:12.18 | end1 | if they want to join in 2 years again, because their situation is fucked up |
| 05:12.24 | end1 | they will not get them again |
| 05:12.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, out is out |
| 05:12.43 | end1 | DocScrutinizer05: they will try again |
| 05:12.52 | end1 | the last time it took also three attempts |
| 05:13.16 | wpwrak | end1: changing the contracts will make all the folks working on that very happy, and rich ;-) |
| 05:13.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | EU must not allow them to re-join, or every friggin EU banana republic will threaten with exit just to get better deals |
| 05:13.33 | wpwrak | end1: so don't worry too much about the establishment. they won't go poor either ;-) |
| 05:13.44 | end1 | wpwrak: well, and the tax payers veeeeery unhappy |
| 05:14.20 | wpwrak | end1: they're already unhappy :) i mean, probably half of "leave" really meant "cameron", not "eu" |
| 05:14.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | unemployment expected to rise massively in GB |
| 05:14.37 | end1 | wpwrak: they will be even more unhappy, after they see what they have done |
| 05:14.51 | end1 | well, USA-like GB |
| 05:14.57 | end1 | adapting to their little children |
| 05:15.52 | end1 | populistic idiots created this |
| 05:15.57 | end1 | as almost always |
| 05:16.05 | end1 | i'm glad not living in GB |
| 05:16.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly even a fool like Trump for next whatevertheUKhas |
| 05:16.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/UK/GB/ |
| 05:16.46 | end1 | although it will be funny changing all maps for northireland and scotland maybe even wales |
| 05:17.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | worrying is the increase in political instability and tention all over Europe from this |
| 05:18.17 | end1 | i think if scotland joins the eu this will lay down |
| 05:18.28 | end1 | as they see not all people are brainwashed |
| 05:18.51 | end1 | and of course when they see GB die |
| 05:19.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | think EU sactions against Russia, for just one example |
| 05:19.18 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: that's been brewing for a while. and brussels has tried to ignore it. bad idea. at least it's not france who delivered the wakeup call. now that would have been devastating. |
| 05:19.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 05:19.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | france pending in steady state |
| 05:20.11 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: please please keep those sanctions. they're really good for us who get to export stuff to russia ;-)) |
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| 05:20.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | not long until Hungary, Netherlands, France, whatnotelse will turn ultra-national |
| 05:21.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | (well, some already did) and then leave EU too |
| 05:21.13 | end1 | hopefully not germany too |
| 05:21.21 | end1 | else this will end in the long term in a WWIII or so |
| 05:21.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, prolly not |
| 05:21.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | the idiots here are loud but 'only' maybe 15% so far |
| 05:21.52 | end1 | this can rise quite fast |
| 05:21.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 05:22.31 | end1 | anyway |
| 05:22.39 | end1 | any ETA for the Neo900 yet? |
| 05:25.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wish there was |
| 05:43.04 | freemangordon | hmm, wait, afaik British parliament has the final saying about brexit |
| 05:43.40 | freemangordon | so, no matter the referendum results, it is still not decided |
| 05:50.31 | wpwrak | freemangordon: given that that was to a large extent also a vote against the current government, i think it would be great if they tried to weasel out on some technicalities. that would definitely send the people the message they want to hear ;-) |
| 05:51.13 | end1 | wpwrak: i don't think so |
| 05:51.27 | end1 | the brexit campaign solidarized with the actual government |
| 05:51.41 | end1 | /s/actual/current/ |
| 05:52.27 | end1 | so why the hell would someone vote "against the current government", if the brexit just means it will prevail? |
| 05:52.58 | wpwrak | end1: news sources pretty much agree that this is a major blow for cameron |
| 05:53.01 | freemangordon | well, people are not always rational |
| 05:54.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | for Cameron yes. But Cameron introduced the exit election only to quiet anti-EU tendencies in his own party |
| 05:54.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | this was a bad shot in his own foot |
| 05:55.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | 3 years ago when he came up with this election idea, the mood was not as broadly anti-EU as it became during those 3 years since then |
| 05:55.43 | freemangordon | the gov could use the referendum results to renegotiate wit EU, I suspect this is what is going to happen |
| 05:55.50 | wpwrak | yes, never stand in front of your own cannon ;-) |
| 05:56.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: nope |
| 05:56.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | EU won't accept this |
| 05:56.42 | freemangordon | why not? |
| 05:56.44 | end1 | GB already got a lot of special regulations |
| 05:56.58 | end1 | they will not get more |
| 05:57.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | EU don't want to create an even worse precedence |
| 05:57.22 | freemangordon | GB out of EU is not a good thing, dammit, they did everything to keep GR in there |
| 05:57.41 | wpwrak | freemangordon: i guess that's what effectively may happen. they'll have to initiate the separation process, but then they can wait until some crisis they can use to make public opinion swing the other way. then they can try to revert it. but let's see. maybe they decide it's not worth the trouble, and they can just get as good a deal with bilateral contracts. |
| 05:58.12 | end1 | the tourism in GB will suffer a lot i think |
| 05:58.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | precedent even |
| 05:58.33 | freemangordon | the point is - until there is no c"confirmation" from the british parliament, the referendum results mean nothing but a noise |
| 05:58.34 | end1 | they will lose many EU tourists |
| 05:58.50 | end1 | and Gibraltar will suffer a lot, too |
| 05:59.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh yeah, the poor gibraltamekakiinians |
| 06:00.03 | end1 | just because some stupid nationalists, as always |
| 06:00.05 | wpwrak | freemangordon: i don't think they can afford to not act on it. that would be political suicide. |
| 06:00.22 | freemangordon | wpwrak: that won;t be the first time |
| 06:00.39 | freemangordon | there is already a precedent |
| 06:01.11 | wpwrak | freemangordon: it would certainly get them the marie antoinette award for elite disconnect ;-) |
| 06:01.27 | freemangordon | also, keep in mind that boys with the thick wallets are against brexit. guess who controls the politicians :) |
| 06:01.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's a pretty good point indeed |
| 06:01.58 | wpwrak | freemangordon: that's why i expect them to focus on friendly bilateral contracts now |
| 06:02.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, those bilateral contracts will take half a dozen years or more to get established |
| 06:03.07 | freemangordon | wpwrak: no way to happen "now", and int the time period needed to establish, there will be lots of money wasted for the london city boys |
| 06:03.11 | wpwrak | freemangordon: cut back a bit on immigration and such, to placate the loudmouths, then make sure the things they really care about don't change much |
| 06:03.42 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: :nod: |
| 06:04.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: that's the root problem: the loudmouths don't have a faintest clue what exactly it is they are afraid of |
| 06:04.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | they actually make up bullshit reasons |
| 06:04.58 | freemangordon | remember what has happened in Greece? They voted against ECB etc, but still, the gov decided to act differently |
| 06:05.58 | freemangordon | the same will happen here IMO. Or actually it may become even better, because GB has way more to lose from brexit than EU |
| 06:06.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course |
| 06:06.26 | freemangordon | well, maybe not GB as a whole, but the guys with the money |
| 06:06.30 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: they can extend that two year period if they want. so i wouldn't worry about time constraints. |
| 06:06.43 | freemangordon | no, thay can't |
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| 06:07.08 | freemangordon | afaik the EU law enforces those 2 years |
| 06:07.26 | end1 | afaik EU law doesnot allow the brexit |
| 06:07.33 | end1 | or the exit of any country from the EU |
| 06:07.37 | wpwrak | freemangordon: "The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period." |
| 06:07.41 | freemangordon | end1: hmm, why is that? |
| 06:07.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | article 50 is quite clear onb that afaik, however they of course may invent some new rule. But that's not a remedy for the impact those uncertain new contracts have |
| 06:08.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | end1: that's article 50 iirc |
| 06:08.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe it wsas 150 |
| 06:08.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | it has that 2 year span to accomplish the exit |
| 06:09.39 | wpwrak | it's article 50: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union |
| 06:10.03 | wpwrak | and the above is the wording on the 2 years period. so you can see that it's flexible. |
| 06:10.05 | freemangordon | anyway "interesting times" ahead :) |
| 06:10.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: maybe it is flexible, but that doesn't help |
| 06:10.24 | wpwrak | freemangordon: indeed. change is what makes life interesting :) |
| 06:10.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | I alreadxy assumed that flexibility when I said "half a dozen years to accomplish" |
| 06:11.39 | freemangordon | wpwrak: well, the chinese wish "to live in interesting times" is a kind of a curse :) |
| 06:12.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | other sources attribute it to the arabs |
| 06:12.06 | wpwrak | freemangordon: yeah, they work too hard. no time for fun :) |
| 06:13.23 | freemangordon | however, I don;t think brexit will really happen |
| 06:19.10 | wpwrak | freemangordon: quite a possible outcome. and if it eventually happens, i'd expect it to be replaced by cosy agreements. what i really hope this will accomplish is to lead to improvements in the EU. |
| 06:20.17 | wpwrak | such as things like TTIP not happening |
| 06:21.38 | freemangordon | wpwrak: I guess we all hope, but that's not going to happen (improvements). I think EU bureaucracy is fubar. I'll be glad to be proved wrong. |
| 06:23.56 | freemangordon | TTIP and the likes are because of our friends on the other side of the ocean and IMO brexit just gives them more power to influence on EU politics |
| 06:26.23 | Wizzup_ | Yes, that's the whole point. The EU needs to stand together to have any influence on foreign / international politics |
| 06:27.43 | wpwrak | freemangordon: i think the effect on US-EU influence is tricky. but TTIP already sparked significant resistance. it's the sort of thing that can make growing resentment worse. |
| 06:28.42 | wpwrak | Wizzup_: standing together and behind your political leaders helps little if these leaders all agree to act against your interests :) |
| 06:28.49 | freemangordon | wpwrak: ...but instead of doing that, our favorite grandma started to play games with immigrants, further strengthening anti-EU moods inside the union |
| 06:28.57 | freemangordon | oops |
| 06:29.01 | Wizzup_ | wpwrak: I am not so sure if that is true / happening |
| 06:29.02 | freemangordon | Wizzup_: ^^^ |
| 06:29.30 | wpwrak | freemangordon: yes, merkel screwed that up badly. austria is also very pissed off about that. |
| 06:29.50 | freemangordon | yeah |
| 06:30.40 | Wizzup_ | Was there a decent and humane way to handle it? |
| 06:30.52 | freemangordon | wpwrak: imagine how it is in the eastern parts where we don't have the legacy of being WWII guilty |
| 06:31.06 | wpwrak | Wizzup_: not start it ? :) |
| 06:31.21 | Wizzup_ | wpwrak: Is that a humane option? Not start what? |
| 06:32.30 | wpwrak | Wizzup_: not try to destabilize inconvenient but stable regimes, and thus give idle hands a chance to start an insurgency, or whatever you want to call that conflict |
| 06:32.42 | Wizzup_ | I didn't know the EU did that... |
| 06:33.07 | wpwrak | Wizzup_: they helped the US do it |
| 06:33.16 | freemangordon | :nod: |
| 06:33.37 | Wizzup_ | I recall that a few countries did minor bombings, yes. |
| 06:34.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | long before that, there was utter hostility against Sadad |
| 06:34.29 | freemangordon | it is not all about the force used, it is about the politics and support to US decisions |
| 06:34.43 | wpwrak | freemangordon: well, there are quite a number of people in austria who seem to feel more pride than guilt about WWII. and guess who's on the rise now ... :( |
| 06:35.48 | freemangordon | wpwrak: sure, I guess it is the same all around Europe, new generations with no memories |
| 06:36.02 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: sadat, died in 1981 ? or do you mean assad, president of syria ? :) |
| 06:36.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | Assad, yeah |
| 06:37.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | SOP of USA: remove inconvenient government but instead of 5 seconds pondering what comes next, just leave a vacuum |
| 06:38.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | they did that in Iraq in a very brilliant way |
| 06:38.23 | wpwrak | DocScrutinizer05: indeed. and as we know, nature abhors a vacuum, especially if it's a power vacuum |
| 06:38.35 | wpwrak | libya, too. perhaps an even worse case. |
| 06:38.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 06:38.43 | freemangordon | yeah |
| 06:39.26 | freemangordon | esp in lybia EU was more than just a side observer |
| 06:40.48 | Arch-TK | Wow, that was unexpected, the vote was to leave. |
| 06:41.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | Libya? |
| 06:43.20 | Arch-TK | and DocScrutinizer05 was right, GBP immediately down 10% |
| 06:43.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed EU/USA acted worse than even the French in their worst times |
| 06:43.56 | Arch-TK | Do you think GBP will keep falling now? |
| 06:44.10 | freemangordon | who's going to stop it? |
| 06:45.33 | freemangordon | remember, there is an EU politicians meeting in a couple of hours, where they will say "british people choice has to be respected" I guess |
| 06:47.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2016/06/24/plasma-desktopLh2277.png |
| 06:47.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: we may have bets on how many chars are incorrectly predicted in this wording |
| 06:47.55 | freemangordon | and the next to come is Scotland (and Ireland ?) saying they will make referendums on staying in EU, thus leaving GB |
| 06:48.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, though aiui they need to push such referendum in London |
| 06:48.32 | freemangordon | that chart one remembers me of 11.02 :) |
| 06:49.30 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: afaik scotland has its own gov and parliament, but don;t quote me on that :) |
| 06:49.51 | freemangordon | I am not really that deep in island's politics :D |
| 06:50.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, they do afaik, but only for "local" stuff, not for an exit from UK |
| 06:50.44 | freemangordon | sure, but now we have "interesting times" so I won;t be surprised if they somehow manage to do it by themselves |
| 06:52.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | neither, just heard something in a sub-sentence that sounded like "the Scotsh will try to use this brexit to force another referendum" |
| 06:53.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | when they need to force it, then against Britain |
| 06:53.17 | freemangordon | wonders who is going to harvest the strawberries in the UK now :D |
| 06:53.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL |
| 06:54.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | we got the Polish and maybe Czech people |
| 06:54.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | here in germany, also for asparagus |
| 06:55.09 | freemangordon | sure, but going out of EU will most probably mean that borders won't be crossed as easily as now, so the people will prefer germany etc |
| 06:55.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | but yeah, I heard in UK the Irish and Scots play that role |
| 06:55.48 | freemangordon | hmm, what I know it is the same in UK (eastern europe people) |
| 06:56.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | that info was not very validated |
| 06:57.13 | freemangordon | anyway, /me has to run |
| 06:57.18 | freemangordon | bb |
| 06:57.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | feels migraine around the corner. Heat is also not _really_ mere fun |
| 06:57.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ |
| 06:57.40 | freemangordon | hmm, how hot it is in your place? |
| 06:57.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~weather eddn |
| 06:58.19 | freemangordon | because, what I see here, in my room, is 31.2 :p |
| 06:58.48 | freemangordon | I guess outside is about 35-36 |
| 06:58.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | yesterday my room was nicely chilled. Not it has heated up |
| 06:58.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | now* |
| 06:59.07 | freemangordon | anyway, bb |
| 06:59.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | cya |
| 07:07.58 | Arch-TK | I wonder how long before I need to get a visa |
| 07:08.16 | Arch-TK | Citizeship in this country is more expensive than the Neo900 |
| 07:08.44 | Arch-TK | I need to go too |
| 07:26.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | wow, Cameron doesn't step down |
| 07:28.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh, I just missed it, he actually does |
| 07:31.50 | wpwrak | and he's already adding delays to the invocation of article 50 :) |
| 07:33.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | no surprise, he's contra brexit |
| 07:34.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why he needs to step down, nobody wants the loser to fight for the winner's agenda |
| 07:37.27 | wpwrak | yes, but he's not only not overseeing the negotiations / transition, but he's also delaying initiating the process. that's different from what he said before. not surprising, though. |
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| 11:58.55 | Arch-TK | Well, it means I have a few more months to acquire the £1200 required for a citizenship. |
| 11:59.31 | Arch-TK | It seems I should have put more of my savings into BTC earlier, it seems to have been a good bet. |
| 11:59.51 | Arch-TK | My losses aren't as big as they might have been (not that I have all that many savings) |
| 12:00.13 | Arch-TK | This country isn't really that big on savings, people seem to think that having no savings because you're "poor" is something to brag about. |
| 12:00.23 | Arch-TK | People brag about how little savings they have. |
| 12:00.47 | Arch-TK | In other news: coworker states that 52% of the UK is racist bigots. |
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| 12:07.18 | Defiant | is the neo900 even sold outside the eu? :) |
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| 12:30.44 | pigeons | Defiant: i ordered one and im in us |
| 12:30.56 | pigeons | there are a few different radio configuration choices |
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