| 00:00.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | afk |
| 00:00.27 | Oksana | Heh... PDF is the only one I recognise. |
| 00:01.57 | Oksana | Heh... Will try to use this one: http://svgconv.blasiussecundus.me/ |
| 00:02.06 | Oksana | SVG-to-PDF |
| 00:44.39 | *** join/#neo900 varu|zZz (~whee@192.158.14.99) |
| 01:12.59 | jonwil | sounds like we are making progress on the domesheet :) |
| 01:14.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | domesheet is basically a nobrainer |
| 01:14.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | lightspreader been a sort of headache, until I spoke to my friend at citydruck this afternoon |
| 01:18.55 | *** join/#neo900 Kabouik_ (~quassel@230.154.92.79.rev.sfr.net) |
| 01:22.00 | *** join/#neo900 dos11 (~dos1@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 01:22.00 | *** mode/#neo900 [+v dos11] by ChanServ |
| 01:22.00 | *** join/#neo900 nicksydney_ (~quassel@193.94-67-202.dynamic.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) |
| 01:22.48 | *** join/#neo900 gurki (28788@ircbox.informatik.uni-erlangen.de) |
| 01:23.32 | *** join/#neo900 silviof (~silviof@unaffiliated/silviof) |
| 01:29.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | WOWOWOW!!! http://wstaw.org/m/2014/11/08/plasma-desktopxL1987.png |
| 01:45.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2014/11/08/plasma-desktopsj1987.png |
| 01:58.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2014/11/08/plasma-desktopUm1987.png |
| 02:00.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | mega credits to xes! awesome work! Thanks a lot! |
| 02:00.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | n8 xes, night folks! |
| 02:00.44 | xes | good night! |
| 02:06.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/random-media/domesheet/dome_sheet_draw2.svg |
| 02:11.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: ^^^ |
| 02:22.31 | wpwrak | hehe :) |
| 02:23.05 | wpwrak | but i'd just give them the PDF. shorter processing path. so if they don't mind using it, it's much safer |
| 02:24.21 | wpwrak | the original i did - of course - with fped. http://neo900.org/git/?p=misc;a=blob;f=dome/dome.fpd |
| 02:24.58 | wpwrak | fped then generated 1:1 postscript. from that, i made PDF (with ps2pdf aka ghostscript) |
| 02:25.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1446336#post1446336 |
| 02:26.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | wpwrak: this is not for production, this is for a *quote* |
| 02:27.07 | wpwrak | yup. i'm just saying: if they're happy with PDF, then SVG is just one extra step that doesn't help us |
| 02:27.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I don't see a pdf which has all the needed bits in it |
| 02:27.40 | wpwrak | oh, now i see what you mean: more bits. nice :) |
| 02:29.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly outline of the real thing, yes |
| 02:29.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | plus cutouts |
| 02:29.52 | wpwrak | (cityduck) that's great. usually the most critical step is whether a company can do anything of the kind at all. after that, it's just implementation details. so, very good. |
| 02:31.33 | wpwrak | yup, great. someone has much better tools than i do :) (i measure things with gimp, which gives me one distance - with errors - at a time. and i wasn't looking forward to do all the linear regressions - or cheat around them - for the more complex bits) |
| 02:33.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | the whole thing is a cheat, done with simple automatic outline done from http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/domesheet_bottom.jpg, then zoomed to fit and merged with your fped pdf |
| 02:34.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | inkscape ftw |
| 02:35.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | the tiny O shaped holes are not what they should be for production grade |
| 02:36.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | but for a quote it's good enough |
| 02:36.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, n8. Feeling extremely tired |
| 02:37.05 | wpwrak | (big cheat) oh, i see :) |
| 02:38.07 | wpwrak | well, in any case we now have more than enough stuff for snaptron. let's see what they think of our puzzle :) |
| 02:38.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | they will think "hmm, quite standard, but WTF is that lightspreader thing?" |
| 02:44.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | (actually I guess they'll think "pretty few cutouts, but a more weird than usual shape in turn") |
| 02:45.01 | jonwil | Lets hope we can find manufacturer who can make N[eo]900 domesheets so there is continued supply going forward for all N[eo]900 users |
| 02:45.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | we have: see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1446336#post1446336 |
| 02:45.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | no doubt they can make the dome array |
| 02:46.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | good (UGT) night! |
| 02:47.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | if snaptron goes insane with what they're calling for custom dome array, there are also a few Asian companies |
| 02:48.42 | jonwil | are there any patents on the N900 keyboard that we would need to be careful with? (i.e. we dont want some manufacturer being sued for making patent-violating pieces and getting sued) |
| 02:48.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | errrr |
| 02:48.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | sssshhhhh |
| 02:49.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, we avoid any patents |
| 02:49.44 | jonwil | ok :) |
| 02:50.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe Mr Nobel has the patent on dynamite. We however onyl produce nitric acid and glycerin and some filler material |
| 02:51.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | also easier to ship ;-) |
| 03:44.33 | *** join/#neo900 sixwheeledbeast (~paul@2a01:348:6:860a:99e1:d470:ddd7:a025) |
| 03:54.12 | *** join/#neo900 sixwheeledbeast (~paul@2a01:348:6:860a:99e1:d470:ddd7:a025) |
| 04:16.15 | *** join/#neo900 sixwheeledbeast (~paul@2a01:348:6:860a:99e1:d470:ddd7:a025) |
| 04:38.53 | *** join/#neo900 sixwheeledbeast (~paul@2a01:348:6:860a:99e1:d470:ddd7:a025) |
| 06:58.57 | *** join/#neo900 freemangordon (~ivo@46.249.74.23) |
| 07:36.30 | *** join/#neo900 Svetlana (noone@freenode/staff/fsf.member.svetlana) |
| 08:53.48 | *** join/#neo900 Nokiabot (~Nokiabot@182.66.22.104) |
| 09:13.20 | *** join/#neo900 nicksydney (~quassel@96.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) |
| 09:25.10 | *** join/#neo900 nicksydney_ (~quassel@96.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) |
| 09:41.12 | *** join/#neo900 paulk-collins (~paulk@gagarine.paulk.fr) |
| 10:08.07 | *** join/#neo900 xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 10:53.01 | *** join/#neo900 paulk-collins (~paulk@gagarine.paulk.fr) |
| 11:29.40 | *** join/#neo900 Svetlana (noone@freenode/staff/fsf.member.svetlana) |
| 11:33.37 | *** join/#neo900 Kabouik (~quassel@230.154.92.79.rev.sfr.net) |
| 12:03.19 | *** join/#neo900 Oxyd76 (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/oxyd76) |
| 12:11.45 | *** join/#neo900 trx (ns-team@cable-188-2-94-78.dynamic.sbb.rs) |
| 12:11.46 | *** join/#neo900 trx (ns-team@devbin/founder/trx) |
| 12:29.09 | *** join/#neo900 trx (ns-team@cable-188-2-94-78.dynamic.sbb.rs) |
| 12:29.09 | *** join/#neo900 trx (ns-team@devbin/founder/trx) |
| 12:48.58 | *** join/#neo900 jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-80-219.tpgi.com.au) |
| 12:50.59 | *** join/#neo900 louisdk (~louisdk@static-5-103-130-65.seas-nve.net) |
| 13:08.06 | *** join/#neo900 obsed (~obesd@unaffiliated/obesd) |
| 13:34.24 | freemangordon | jusa_: any idea what is this https://gitorious.org/pulseaudio-nokia/pulseaudio-nokia/source/a02b2fd2eb569a11c377a1d39fd43feadf6e88b7:src/xprot/dsp.h#L40 ? this is used in xprot init function. |
| 13:35.24 | freemangordon | Pali: any idea ^^^ |
| 13:36.24 | *** join/#neo900 arcean (~arcean@aadb214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 13:36.49 | Pali | really no idea |
| 13:40.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: where from are names "blz" and "rv"? |
| 13:41.01 | freemangordon | my invention :) |
| 13:41.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | k |
| 13:41.33 | freemangordon | "argument b leading zeroes" and "return value" |
| 13:42.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's "__builtin_clz"? |
| 13:42.17 | freemangordon | "count leading zeroes" |
| 13:43.42 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: that function is used here https://gitorious.org/pulseaudio-nokia/pulseaudio-nokia/source/a02b2fd2eb569a11c377a1d39fd43feadf6e88b7:src/xprot/a_xprot.c#L180 |
| 13:43.49 | freemangordon | if that helps |
| 13:46.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder if I need more coffee to gtok "(a ^ (a << 1)" |
| 13:46.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | aaaaa |
| 13:46.51 | freemangordon | that checks if it will overflow or somesuch |
| 13:47.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | marks the "transition" bit in 0b0000011111111111 |
| 13:47.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | or 0b111110000 |
| 13:48.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~0b11111000 ^ 0b11110000 |
| 13:48.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | = 0b00001000 |
| 13:49.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | works for postive numbers as well |
| 13:49.45 | freemangordon | hmm |
| 13:49.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~0b000001111 ^ 0b00001111 |
| 13:50.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | eeer |
| 13:50.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~0b00000111 ^ 0b00001111 |
| 13:50.23 | freemangordon | where is she? |
| 13:50.53 | freemangordon | hmm, wait, where that 1 in LSB came from? |
| 13:50.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | she doesn't know 0b |
| 13:51.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, I cheated |
| 13:51.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~0b00000111 ^ 0b00001110 |
| 13:51.36 | freemangordon | 0111 ^ 1110 = 1001 |
| 13:52.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | but for clz it is good enough |
| 13:53.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | to me it looks like a limiting function for both positive and negative values, where your parameter b is the limit |
| 13:53.36 | freemangordon | no, see the limits |
| 13:53.54 | freemangordon | also, it shifts |
| 13:54.46 | freemangordon | hmm, maybe you are right, need to experiment a bit |
| 13:55.23 | freemangordon | but still, see https://gitorious.org/pulseaudio-nokia/pulseaudio-nokia/source/a02b2fd2eb569a11c377a1d39fd43feadf6e88b7:src/xprot/dsp.h#L59 |
| 13:57.44 | freemangordon | "shift left by the number of leading zeroes in expression (b ^ (2 * b))" |
| 13:58.00 | freemangordon | doesn't sound familiar to me |
| 14:01.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's actually quite strange |
| 14:03.19 | Pali | haha bit hacks... sometimes hard to understand |
| 14:03.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | some weird fixed decimal arithmetics? |
| 14:03.41 | freemangordon | IMO b ^ (2 * b) checks if the multiplication is safe |
| 14:03.55 | freemangordon | (no overflow will occur) |
| 14:04.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, for that you need two input parameters, not one |
| 14:04.41 | freemangordon | you have them 2 and b |
| 14:04.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, that's meaningless |
| 14:05.07 | freemangordon | I know, but see the code |
| 14:05.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | see what it does, it counts leading zeroes |
| 14:05.28 | freemangordon | sure |
| 14:05.43 | freemangordon | see https://gitorious.org/pulseaudio-nokia/pulseaudio-nokia/source/a02b2fd2eb569a11c377a1d39fd43feadf6e88b7:src/xprot/dsp.h#L51 |
| 14:06.13 | freemangordon | if(__builtin_clz(a ^ (a << 1)) < blz) |
| 14:06.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui it left-adjusts the 'a' parameter to fit into a range given by 'b' |
| 14:07.32 | freemangordon | but why then it limits to INT_MIN and INT_MAX? |
| 14:07.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | when leading-zeroes = 3 then it left-shifts the a-param by 3 |
| 14:09.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | when "a>b", in line 51 |
| 14:09.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | b is limit |
| 14:10.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | maxint/minint are "NAN" |
| 14:11.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka error/out-of-range flags |
| 14:12.05 | freemangordon | hmm, might be |
| 14:12.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | left-adjusting a value is needed for some tricky algos iirc |
| 14:12.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's fixed point arithmetic |
| 14:13.22 | freemangordon | yeah, makes sense |
| 14:14.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | left adjust 0.035 to 3.5 (ok decimal base here). Keep adjustment of -2 in mind |
| 14:14.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | do same with your other operand |
| 14:15.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | 0.035 is internally represented as 3.5e-2 |
| 14:17.27 | freemangordon | oh, so it shifts a until it falls in the range marked by the first non-zero bit in b? |
| 14:18.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | 3.5e-2 * 2.0e-2 = 3.5*2.0 e ( [-2] + [-2] ) |
| 14:19.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | 3.5e-2 / 2.0e-2 = 3.5/2.0 e ( [-2] - [-2] ) |
| 14:20.28 | freemangordon | isn't that called normalization? |
| 14:20.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly yes |
| 14:20.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | or fixed point arithmetic, at large |
| 14:21.18 | freemangordon | no, I meant what the function in question does |
| 14:21.34 | freemangordon | it normalizes a |
| 14:21.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, I might call it normalization |
| 14:22.08 | freemangordon | and the "template" is given by b |
| 14:22.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | what puzzles me is that it doesn't return blz |
| 14:22.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 14:22.41 | freemangordon | I guess there is no need, as you know blz in advance |
| 14:23.04 | freemangordon | because you know the template |
| 14:23.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | possible, I can't say I really analyzed the function |
| 14:23.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | just wild guessing |
| 14:23.52 | freemangordon | see how it is called https://gitorious.org/pulseaudio-nokia/pulseaudio-nokia/source/a02b2fd2eb569a11c377a1d39fd43feadf6e88b7:src/xprot/a_xprot.c#L180 |
| 14:24.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | seen that, yes |
| 14:24.46 | freemangordon | anyway, I am afk |
| 14:24.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's somewhat simlar to normalization, but called with weird params |
| 14:25.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't grok it |
| 14:27.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably the right thing to do before you do a fixed-arithmetic divide |
| 14:30.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | your valid range is 4 bit aka 0x000F, you want to device a/b, so you do a <<clz(0x000F) to both a and be, --> a=0x0001 f()-> a=0x1000, b=0x0007 f()-> b=0x7000; a/b = 0x1000/0x7000 |
| 14:30.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | sth along that line |
| 14:31.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly my applying "normalization" to b was nonsense |
| 14:31.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | only apply ro a, so: |
| 14:31.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | your valid range is 4 bit aka 0x000F, you want to device a/b, so you do a <<clz(0x000F) to a , --> a=0x0001 f()-> a=0x1000; a/b = 0x1000/0x0007 |
| 14:34.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:35.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/E-4/E-3/ |
| 14:36.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | a/b = 0x0001E0 / 0x0007E0 = 0x1000E-3/0x0007E0 = [0x1000/0x0007]E-3 |
| 14:37.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | the factor 3 is constant and defined by range=0..0xF |
| 14:38.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | and your working storage size of 4 byte size |
| 15:20.23 | *** join/#neo900 MonkeyofDoom (~~~Monkeyo@2601:d:3080:f8a:6ef0:49ff:fee1:a332) |
| 15:24.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2014/11/08/plasma-desktopuJ1987.png |
| 15:25.01 | rZr | hi DocScrutinizer05 |
| 15:25.02 | rZr | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1446377#post1446377 |
| 15:25.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, unrelated to Neo900 |
| 15:25.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~fptf |
| 15:25.59 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 |
| 15:27.03 | rZr | DocScrutinizer05, so you dont want to be linked to maemo.org main page ? |
| 15:27.09 | rZr | really weird |
| 15:27.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | to be utterly clear about that: Neo900 is not doing software, and thus is NOT related to maemo |
| 15:27.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I feel nausea touching tmo |
| 15:27.55 | rZr | DocScrutinizer05, and if we add a link to this thread . will this drive you mad ? :) |
| 15:33.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can do whatever you like, however linking to a commercial hw project and stating it was a "maemo community project" is pretty odd and incorrect |
| 15:34.20 | rZr | it's a project of community members |
| 15:34.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 15:34.34 | rZr | dont play with words |
| 15:34.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm definitely no community mamber anymore |
| 15:35.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | werner also never been |
| 15:35.04 | rZr | well I have to go... |
| 15:35.15 | rZr | we want to support neo900 |
| 15:35.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not interested in support from council, see first post of Neo900 main thread |
| 15:36.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you want to support something, support fremantle porting task force, talk to freemangordon |
| 15:36.28 | rZr | I did already |
| 15:37.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | fine, then Neo900 UG and me are bailing out |
| 15:38.19 | rZr | just one question before leaving |
| 15:38.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not going to participate in that troll's fight club anymore |
| 15:38.50 | rZr | were all those n900 from mozilla running maemo ? |
| 15:39.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | do you think I tested all 55 devices? |
| 15:39.50 | rZr | I can test one :) |
| 15:40.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | tbh I don't even care what they are running, when I need one incl OS on original mainboard, I'll reflash it |
| 15:41.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, my amount of maemo chatter for today exceeds allowable maximum, thanks to other /query and this convo here |
| 15:41.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | afk |
| 15:41.37 | rZr | no problem |
| 15:41.41 | rZr | i have to go too |
| 16:05.29 | *** join/#neo900 louisdk (~louisdk@static-5-103-130-65.seas-nve.net) |
| 16:40.40 | *** join/#neo900 Nokiabot (~Nokiabot@182.66.25.210) |
| 16:41.08 | Nokiabot | Doc doc doc |
| 16:41.17 | Nokiabot | Are you mad |
| 16:41.22 | Nokiabot | ?? |
| 16:41.32 | Nokiabot | If not |
| 16:41.37 | Nokiabot | I help |
| 16:41.46 | Nokiabot | Getting you mad |
| 16:42.25 | Nokiabot | Docscrutinizer05^^^ |
| 16:50.53 | Nokiabot | Has to run he comes later to make doc mad or probably nokiabot got pea sized brain :( |
| 17:00.26 | kerio | the FUCK |
| 17:01.29 | Nokiabot | says keiro ah |
| 17:02.15 | Nokiabot | Damm with the spellings and damm crazy names. fukk |
| 17:05.34 | *** join/#neo900 Kabouik (~quassel@230.154.92.79.rev.sfr.net) |
| 17:06.41 | Nokiabot | Kabouik ??? |
| 17:07.03 | Kabouik | :< |
| 17:07.39 | Nokiabot | Kabouik: you need to say good night ;) |
| 17:07.46 | Nokiabot | Got it ?? |
| 17:07.58 | Kabouik | Good night Nokiabot, but it's way too early here |
| 17:08.34 | Nokiabot | Thanx and it way too late here ;) |
| 17:11.51 | Nokiabot | Ah forgot to say good morning kabouik :) |
| 17:12.02 | Kabouik | Oh no, it's not that early :( |
| 17:12.59 | Nokiabot | Ah then ?? |
| 17:13.12 | Kabouik | You'll say that tomorrow morning Nokiabot |
| 17:13.51 | Nokiabot | Humm ! |
| 17:15.00 | Nokiabot | goes under blanket and a good evening to kabouik |
| 17:15.15 | Kabouik | ! |
| 17:31.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | eh? seems some channel members got something wrong. Neo900 is strictly about hardware and I will not participate in a 10 months old thread ehat has posts like http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1421171#post1421171 in it, particularly when that thread is not in Neo900 subforum |
| 17:32.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | err http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1445941#post1445941 |
| 17:33.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Anyway If there are ACTIVE projects who want to attract community good will , please tell us about it ...<< SEE FPTF! |
| 17:34.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I would be mad if I accepted maemo council promoting Neo900 as a project they had any saying in. And council would be mad too when they did |
| 17:50.25 | *** join/#neo900 che1 (~che@2a02:810d:9fbf:fe20:213:e8ff:fe9b:fb3f) |
| 17:58.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | with "community members" like win7mac bashing me for allegedly "having commercial interests in maemo" and thus comcluding I never should have been allowed to get elected into council (probably based on complete ignorance on his side about the meaning of >>6. Nominees with a professional interest in Maemo, such as working for Nokia - or any other company involved in Maemo-related software development - must declare their interest when |
| 17:58.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | advertising their nomination. Failure to do so may result in the Nokia Community Manager, or the outgoing Council, declaring their nomination invalid and so bar them from standing in the current election.<< and the fact that I / Neo900 UG neither is involved into SOFTWARE development, nor the fact that I did NOT fail to declare that I'm involved into Neo900, just for political correctness), council would be really mad to advertise Neo900 |
| 17:58.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | as "supported by council" |
| 18:01.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | not that I'm concerned about council's fate anymore, but I really don't feel like dealing with trolling and bitching of maemo "community members" like estel_ or win7mac anymore, and that would be an inevitable result from council "supporting Neo900" |
| 18:09.30 | wpwrak | i suppose there's no harm if maemo.org lists neo900 as one project/platform that uses maemo (as one of many possible choices) |
| 18:10.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're NOT "using maemo" |
| 18:10.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | we support FPTF |
| 18:12.45 | wpwrak | yes, but FPTF is still based on maemo, no ? or does FPTF aim to replace everything ? |
| 18:13.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't matter, Neo900 isn't *using* FPTF either. A) FPTF is a project aka group of people, and b) Neo900 UG will _not_ ship devices with FOSS-fremantle preinstalled |
| 18:14.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 UG provides support to the FPTF group of devels, where applicable and wanted |
| 18:16.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | the device will ship with a plain debian plus some tools written by us, to evaluate the hw. That's commonly called a BSP. |
| 18:16.26 | wpwrak | if this is to avoid possible IP issues with installed software (i.e., by not installing anything, such issues are less likely to occur), then perhaps this should be clearly communicated to maemo.org (and also FPFT) |
| 18:17.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | everybody is pretty informed about the fact since a year or more |
| 18:17.34 | wpwrak | hmm, seems that the maemo.org people don't know this aspect |
| 18:17.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 doesn't do software and won't ship any preinstalled complete OS |
| 18:17.53 | wpwrak | i think it's important to emphasize this, since it's not something many people would intuitively think of |
| 18:18.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can't help |
| 18:18.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | talk to dos1 about it, I emphasized that we need to make utterly clear about that fact |
| 18:18.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | >12 months ago already |
| 18:18.52 | wpwrak | and the issue goes beyond just not wanting to be involved in some way, because even if they made some unilateral statement, this could expose neo900 to such risks |
| 18:19.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I said all the stuff above |
| 18:20.16 | wpwrak | rZr: so, there you have a rationale to take home :) it's not just about tensions between DocScrutinizer05 and the council but about a very real legal threat |
| 18:21.30 | wpwrak | rZr: e.g., if some patent holder sees something attackable in maemo, they would normally not try to go after maemo itself but after someone selling devices with maemo |
| 18:23.03 | wpwrak | rZr: something like this happened for example to Openmoko, which shipped with software using mp3 (and the corresponding patents are owned by sisvel) |
| 18:24.55 | wpwrak | rZr: and basically anything that suggests an official liaison to such conflicted software could be used as an argument that neo900 is part of such an alleged violation |
| 18:25.24 | wpwrak | needless to say, a battle with patent vultures and similar parasites is about the last thing we need |
| 18:25.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | just on par with a battle with Estel or win7mac |
| 18:28.22 | wpwrak | yeah, that's another set of unpleasant issues :) |
| 18:28.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, nobody will sue raspberry Pi for violation of FCC regulations by using a software on it that sends FM broadcast from a 20cm wire attached to it as antena. Unless Raspberry Pi _ships_ with the software |
| 18:29.34 | wpwrak | and unless they promote such use |
| 18:30.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I don't really care if maemo council "supports" Jolla, Neo900 or R-Pi, but they all three are clearly no *community* projects |
| 18:30.34 | wpwrak | if you don't ship but promote, then you may still be in hot water. an attack would be less likely since patent vultures like easy prey, but still possible |
| 18:30.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't advertise |
| 18:33.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | I've always clearly stated that users need their own copy of fremantle FIASCO images, obtained legally from their former N900, to install fremantle on Neo900 hw platform. Since *we do NOT provide* any such bits |
| 18:34.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | FPTF will provide patches needed, done by a set of scripts. And Neo900 UG at best will point to the FPTF howto page, just like pointing to the SHR installing page and to the gentoo and debian relevant wiki pages |
| 18:35.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 != maemo |
| 19:10.19 | *** join/#neo900 Nokiabot (~Nokiabot@182.66.26.167) |
| 19:11.32 | Nokiabot | Now i get why doc goes mad ! |
| 19:12.03 | Nokiabot | Btw its still a chicken and egg problem |
| 19:12.36 | Nokiabot | Or maybe i got a pea sized brain |
| 19:15.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | great :-) |
| 19:17.51 | Nokiabot | Btw you sound awful even in text when you are mad ! |
| 19:17.52 | Nokiabot | and to be clear i dont mean you sound nice when you are not mad |
| 19:17.52 | Nokiabot | maybe all these years of xxx got you with your tone :p |
| 19:18.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I usually don't post news on Neo900 |
| 19:18.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) |
| 19:19.18 | Nokiabot | Well neo900.org says its thrives to be a freemantle comptiable isint that objectiobnable ? |
| 19:19.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 19:19.38 | Nokiabot | Why ? |
| 19:19.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | because every PC is windows compatible |
| 19:20.06 | Nokiabot | Humm |
| 19:20.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | being compatible doesn't create any liability |
| 19:23.11 | Nokiabot | But they need a lisence to ship windows on it and a ubuntu laptop can be widowed by xp if the user wants so but still the user needs a lisence and freemantle is not lisenseble or something then its all on user and fptf for getting sued ? |
| 19:23.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, cannot parse |
| 19:25.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | no PC manufacturer will get sued for users running pirated/cracked windows on it |
| 19:26.36 | Nokiabot | I men neo is fremantle comptiable but freemantle is property of x so user cannot get to lisense it so its on the user and ftpf to get sued for distributing and installing blobs ? |
| 19:27.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's fremantle with one "e" |
| 19:27.52 | Nokiabot | Ok then what about those propetiary blobs ? Suppose x sues x |
| 19:28.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I must not care where user gets her license from |
| 19:29.02 | Nokiabot | But you care to create a freemantle comptiable platform |
| 19:29.03 | Nokiabot | nice |
| 19:29.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | users are free to do with their hardware they own whatever they like. Not up to Neo900 UG to take any counter measures |
| 19:29.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's fremantle, with one "e" |
| 19:32.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | and Neo900 UG states that Neo900 device will have all (or msot of) the bits needed by a stock fremantle to work as supposed. And FPTF takes care about those parts that need to get tweaked to fir on hardware in Neo900 that's not 100% compatible to N900 |
| 19:32.34 | Nokiabot | Sure |
| 19:32.35 | Nokiabot | but neo900.org mentions freemantle comptiable |
| 19:32.35 | Nokiabot | so you say that getting a advertized feature to use is a user headache ? |
| 19:32.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry what? |
| 19:33.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | advertized feature? |
| 19:33.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | headache? |
| 19:33.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're also not always sounding nice, dude |
| 19:33.37 | Nokiabot | Freemantle comptiable ~~~ |
| 19:33.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's fremantle, with one "e" |
| 19:34.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | and honestly, I don't get what you're asking |
| 19:34.36 | Nokiabot | Maybe i am misinterpeting like others like xes |
| 19:34.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | user cannot change anything about hardware config, sicne... it's hardware. The hardware is as compatible as it gets, and that's it |
| 19:35.29 | Nokiabot | Ah its not about sounding nice i am just asking questions |
| 19:35.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno what "advertized feature" you're talking about |
| 19:36.27 | Nokiabot | Well then i misintepeted freemantle comptiable as a feature then |
| 19:36.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's fremantle, with one "e" |
| 19:37.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it seems you don't read or don't get what I wrote |
| 19:37.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | user cannot change anything about hardware config, sicne... it's hardware. The hardware is as compatible as it gets, and that's it |
| 19:38.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | when "fremantle compatible" is a feature of the hardware then ... user may appreciate and use that or ignore it or dislike it, but there's definitely nothing user can do about such feature and why user might get headache from it |
| 19:39.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | either the hardware has that feature or it doesn't |
| 19:39.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | and *that* is what I'm saying |
| 19:41.22 | *** join/#neo900 Nokiabot (~Nokiabot@182.66.30.73) |
| 19:42.42 | Nokiabot | And the freemantle with that extra e isint exactly free so you say its a fptf and user problen |
| 19:42.43 | Nokiabot | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:43.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | no! please don't claim I say stuff you can't quote |
| 19:43.53 | Nokiabot | I know freemantle will be actualy free some day |
| 19:43.54 | Nokiabot | so is that the ultimate answer ? |
| 19:44.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, 42 is the ultimate answer. sorry |
| 19:44.13 | rZr | wpwrak, sorry i was afk ... I am reading what you said |
| 19:45.05 | Nokiabot | Rzr chime in and save me from docs fire :p |
| 19:45.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | OMG! |
| 19:45.21 | *** part/#neo900 DocScrutinizer05 (~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 19:45.44 | Nokiabot | Rzr are my concerns not noteworthy ? |
| 19:46.35 | Nokiabot | Doc dosent go offline he is tricking us ! |
| 19:46.46 | Nokiabot | Shebang ! |
| 19:46.56 | rZr | Yea I can understand those legal concern |
| 19:47.47 | Nokiabot | Ah a bit of relief now or i thought doc might eat me alive ! |
| 19:48.04 | Nokiabot | Thanx rzr |
| 19:48.11 | rZr | you're welcome |
| 19:49.12 | *** join/#neo900 DocScrutinizer05 (~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 19:49.12 | *** mode/#neo900 [+v DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 19:49.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | please stop this topic in this channel, this is about Neo900, NOT about maemo |
| 19:49.50 | Nokiabot | Na you are welcome ! |
| 19:49.51 | Nokiabot | btw |
| 19:49.51 | Nokiabot | lets get doc red hot |
| 19:49.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 IS NOT maemo! |
| 19:50.15 | Nokiabot | Ok fine ! |
| 19:50.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'd appreciate when Nokiabot would reduce noise posts a bit |
| 19:50.34 | Nokiabot | ^^^^^Doc |
| 19:52.21 | rZr | ok, how far n900 pwr GPU is supposed to be supported ? |
| 19:52.26 | Nokiabot | Rzr ^^^^^^^ |
| 19:52.29 | rZr | neo900 |
| 19:52.34 | rZr | i meant |
| 19:52.40 | *** mode/#neo900 [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 19:54.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | rZr: that depends on the OS and the support for PVR that it brings. Not a Neo900 hardware topic |
| 19:54.08 | Nokiabot | Night guys |
| 19:55.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 UG will ship the devices without PVR driver since we don't have any |
| 19:55.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | pretty please see neo900.org/faq |
| 19:55.38 | *** join/#neo900 xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 19:55.38 | bencoh | to me it looks like the only issue here is that ftpf has no chan ;) |
| 19:55.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | it has |
| 19:56.04 | Nokiabot | Chan =channel nod |
| 19:56.07 | bencoh | oh ... well then .... I guess those questions should be asked there :) |
| 19:56.12 | Nokiabot | Mod |
| 19:56.20 | bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: which one, btw ? |
| 19:56.45 | rZr | fbdev is supported like on gta |
| 19:57.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: an orphaned one since neither freemangordon nor jonwill nor Pali were using it |
| 19:57.42 | rZr | http://listas.gnu.org.ve/pipermail/powervr-devel/ |
| 19:58.50 | bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: huhu, okay |
| 20:00.51 | rZr | is reading https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/single-board-computers |
| 20:01.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/faq#gfx |
| 20:01.28 | rZr | yea |
| 20:03.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/faq#os |
| 20:05.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Most importantly, the Neo900 is an open platform, carrying on in the tradition of the Openmoko project. Neo900 will support all operating systems available for GTA04 (QtMoko, SHR, Debian, Replicant, ...) and should serve as a great platform for porting systems like Maemo, Ubuntu or Firefox OS - or even for writing your own one! We bring the hardware, you choose your OS.<< http://neo900.org/#about |
| 20:07.45 | rZr | hardware with debian bsp |
| 20:08.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 20:08.44 | rZr | how do you plan to release this bsp ? |
| 20:08.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably preinstalled |
| 20:09.45 | rZr | but I guess some parts were built out side debian project ? |
| 20:09.51 | rZr | were / will be |
| 20:10.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | possibly |
| 20:10.34 | rZr | but will remain floss ? |
| 20:10.47 | rZr | exclusivly floss |
| 20:10.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course, otherwise it wouldn't be a bsp, right? |
| 20:11.00 | rZr | this is legit yea |
| 20:11.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | the idea of a bsp is to provide sourcecode demonstrating how to tlak to the hardware |
| 20:11.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | talk* |
| 20:12.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | if it wasn't OSS and free to use, the purpose of bsp was quite void |
| 20:12.29 | rZr | yea but this platform would interest me if it could support EGL / GLES |
| 20:12.41 | rZr | and I dont see many option in the ARM world |
| 20:12.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't have any access to closed source PVR drivers |
| 20:12.57 | rZr | this is not a new topic |
| 20:13.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't have access to anything you couldn't obtain as well from somewhere else |
| 20:13.41 | bencoh | definitely not new |
| 20:15.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | if we run into opportunity to get info under an NDA, be sure we will talk about it |
| 20:15.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | so far we didn't |
| 20:15.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | dfnitely we won't get an NDA to access PVR driver code |
| 20:17.05 | rZr | I have recently got an allwinner A80 dev board |
| 20:17.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are a few systems out there using OMAP3 PVR and you probably can rip out and use their PVR closed blob drivers |
| 20:17.40 | rZr | and It ships a 64 core pvr I will probably not be able to use the way i want |
| 20:18.13 | rZr | http://www.imgtec.com/news/detail.asp?ID=845 |
| 20:20.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Thanks to industry-leading features including its advanced PowerVR Series6 64-core GPU, the UltraOcta A80 gives OEMs the highest performance, most power-efficient and cost-effective solution for a range of devices.â<< |
| 20:20.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, you're no OEM |
| 20:20.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you were, you could sign an NDA to get access to the driver |
| 20:21.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 actually is an OEM but still no chance to get an NDA |
| 20:21.40 | *** join/#neo900 nox- (noident@freebsd/developer/nox) |
| 20:21.40 | bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: do they at least ship closed-source drivers when you buy chips ? |
| 20:21.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 20:21.53 | bencoh | :/ |
| 20:21.57 | bencoh | that's crazy |
| 20:22.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | WLAN manufs ship the firmware with the module |
| 20:23.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | for OMAP / PVR it's a tad different |
| 20:23.19 | rZr | can the drivers be downloaded and installed later on device after user agreement ? |
| 20:23.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, probably. Dunno |
| 20:23.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | why not? |
| 20:23.58 | bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: for we're talking about drivers, not firmware, right ? |
| 20:24.22 | rZr | legally I meant |
| 20:24.31 | bencoh | for powervr* |
| 20:25.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | rZr: I have no idea about contracts you might eventually sign. Neo900 UG won't forbid installing whatever you like on the hardware |
| 20:25.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | afk, tired |
| 20:26.57 | rZr | ok later |
| 20:28.00 | rZr | http://www.merrii.com/en/pla_d.asp?id=173 |
| 20:28.08 | rZr | that's the latest device I got |
| 20:29.25 | bencoh | does lima (mali400 oss driver) have working egl/egls support now ? |
| 20:29.36 | bencoh | you might be interested in cubieboard |
| 20:29.43 | rZr | not yet |
| 20:29.52 | bencoh | (cubieboard3) |
| 20:29.56 | bencoh | oh, too bad |
| 20:30.15 | rZr | but I am unsure about the status |
| 20:30.40 | rZr | freedreno and etnaviv worth also to be tracked |
| 20:32.39 | bencoh | no commit in lima since 2013 ?! wtf ?! |
| 20:54.00 | freemangordon | (re fremantle != Neo900) Even I make that mistake from time to time :) |
| 20:54.31 | freemangordon | jusa_: ping |
| 20:55.44 | freemangordon | rZr: Neo900 will have exactly the same GPU N9/50 has |
| 20:55.57 | freemangordon | so the drivers should work OOTB |
| 20:57.17 | *** join/#neo900 misv_ (~ms@vps.modemet.se) |
| 21:12.28 | *** join/#neo900 dos1 (~dos1@unaffiliated/dos1) |
| 21:12.28 | *** mode/#neo900 [+v dos1] by ChanServ |
| 21:29.32 | *** join/#neo900 che1 (~che@2a02:810d:9fbf:fe20:213:e8ff:fe9b:fb3f) |
| 21:30.44 | *** join/#neo900 j4s0nmchr1st0s (~Thunderbi@172.56.11.118) |
| 21:46.24 | *** join/#neo900 jonwil (~jonwil@27-33-80-219.tpgi.com.au) |
| 21:51.43 | *** mode/#neo900 [-o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 21:57.48 | jonwil | hi |
| 21:59.23 | j4s0nmchr1st0s | hi |
| 23:15.10 | *** join/#neo900 Kabouik (~quassel@230.154.92.79.rev.sfr.net) |
| 23:17.35 | *** join/#neo900 jusa_ (jusa@kraa.fi) |
| 23:39.22 | *** join/#neo900 che1 (~che@95.91.236.183) |
| 23:41.39 | *** join/#neo900 drathir (~kamiljk8@s51.linuxpl.com) |
