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| 13:24.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | background reading, recommended: http://dontbreakthesails.blogspot.de/2014/04/sailfish-silica-half-open-sourced.html |
| 13:43.38 | bencoh | hmm |
| 13:45.31 | Zero_Chaos | DocScrutinizer05: ahh, more promises broken. so surprising </sarcasm> |
| 13:45.39 | Zero_Chaos | DocScrutinizer05: thanks for the reading material though |
| 13:45.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw |
| 13:50.51 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: thanks, I'll need it :D |
| 13:51.04 | dos1 | hi btw :) |
| 13:51.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | huh? and hi! |
| 13:52.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: you need what? |
| 13:53.22 | dos1 | my talk about openmoko/openphoenux will be right after the talk about sailfish, so I need some solid data about why we're better ;) |
| 13:55.54 | dos1 | I expect that people may ask "it's nice, but why not sailfish? isn't it also open after all?", so I should be able to answer properly given that some people familiar with sailfish will also be there :D |
| 13:56.25 | dos1 | same with neo900 vs. jolla |
| 13:56.38 | bencoh | :) |
| 13:57.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask the guy talking about sailfish, he's the one who wrote the blog :-) |
| 13:57.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | (also receive that cordial slap from him, that I ordered for you ;D ) |
| 13:58.27 | dos1 | Posted by Filip Kłębczyk - damn, you're right! :D |
| 13:59.24 | *** join/#neo900 pancaker (171f83cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.23.31.131.205) |
| 13:59.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | for a very simple answer: Jolla wants to make a living from software. We want to sell hardware, we don't care about software so obviously our concept is less tangled by commercial interests in FOSS |
| 14:00.00 | pancaker | Does the neo900 have an open source baseband adapter? I was told this is where remote backdoors happen |
| 14:00.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | pancaker: Neo900 has NO baseband adapter |
| 14:00.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | it simply talks AT to modem |
| 14:01.11 | pancaker | if you had to guess, why dont any Android phones do this? |
| 14:01.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | our "adapter" is the genuine linux USB driver for ttyACM |
| 14:01.19 | pancaker | or any other smartphones? |
| 14:01.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not possible when you wanna go cheap |
| 14:01.54 | pancaker | how come? does it require new hardware or more? |
| 14:01.56 | dos1 | pancaker: "android way" is cheaper, highly integrated, sometimes sacrificing security for performance |
| 14:02.08 | pancaker | ohh |
| 14:02.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | see jolla for example: it shares RAM between linux CPU and modem CPU |
| 14:03.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | the firmware for modem resides on ~16 of the 20 partitions on eMMC storage |
| 14:03.27 | bencoh | (they could've go for the snapdragon apq, but nooo, msm all the way) |
| 14:03.39 | dos1 | modem using DMA means that it doesn't need to bother CPU so much with copying data around |
| 14:03.48 | pancaker | could you say, in short, that the baseband adapter is just the hardware chip that allows the phone to talk to cell networks? and usually the firmware for it is closed source? |
| 14:03.59 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: interesting link; so basically they make a google and lure everyone in with (FO)SS but then it actually isn't? |
| 14:04.01 | dos1 | but it also means that CPU can't control memory access |
| 14:04.05 | bencoh | pancaker: in short yeah |
| 14:04.58 | pancaker | and neo900 doesnt have this chip, and instead has software for it but requires special hardware making it more expensive than traditional companies trying to save money? |
| 14:05.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | pancaker: a very simplified analogy: our modem is like an USB stick plugged to your PC, while theirs is like a graphics card plugged to an internal slot, with own bios and everything |
| 14:05.27 | dos1 | pancaker: neo900 has a equivalent of USB dongle modem |
| 14:05.29 | mvaenskae | pancaker: i have so far not seen any FLOSS baseband adapter on the market |
| 14:05.35 | dos1 | just included inside the case |
| 14:05.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: faster ;-P |
| 14:05.43 | dos1 | damn! :D |
| 14:06.09 | pancaker | thanks guys |
| 14:06.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw |
| 14:06.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks for your interest in Neo900 |
| 14:06.26 | mvaenskae | i wonder if there ever can be a floss adapater |
| 14:06.33 | dos1 | the only FLOSS sw for baseband I'm aware of is OsmocomBB, but it works only on TI Calypso, which is limited to 2G |
| 14:06.34 | pancaker | and in the news, when it says a phone can be turned on with the battery unplugged, does that mean there is a tiny back up battery? |
| 14:06.52 | dos1 | and it's illegal to use without proper permissions of course |
| 14:07.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, that means somebody is fooling you |
| 14:08.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless you talk about Neo900's and Openmoko's ability to enable modem when on external power and no battery plugged in |
| 14:08.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | (btw even that doesn't really work) |
| 14:09.22 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: Openmoko's? I always thought that modem was connected directly to battery on GTA02 |
| 14:09.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | we can turn on the system (linux, main CPU) but not the modem |
| 14:10.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: yes, see ^^^ |
| 14:10.05 | pancaker | "BTW, even if the battery is removed, a 'supercap' or small Lithium would be enough to capture voice and store it to the generous Nand Flash that cell phones now carry (to be sent later, once the main battery is connected)," |
| 14:10.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | pancaker: a highly sophisitcated rant of an expert about imaginary threats |
| 14:10.59 | pancaker | heh |
| 14:11.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | not possible on Neo900 and probably nowhere else |
| 14:11.43 | dos1 | pancaker: then sleep calmly knowing that modem on neo900 won't have access to voice when your OS won't explicitely allow it :) |
| 14:12.30 | pancaker | is the baseband adapter replacement modular? in a sense that it uses open source projects or was it made from scratch? just wondering if it could be used with other projects or its really difficult to tie into other platforms? I saw this PiPhone recently http://www.davidhunt.ie/piphone-a-raspberry-pi-based-smartphone/ but it uses this http://www.micro4you.com/store/sim900-gprs/gsm-module.html |
| 14:12.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: when the P*S8 module had an integrated battery for that scenario, I bet they also integrate the microphone ;-P |
| 14:12.39 | dos1 | (unless we assume that there's a tiny mic embedded in the modem :P) |
| 14:12.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | faster again ;-P |
| 14:13.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | pancaker: we also use a module |
| 14:13.54 | mvaenskae | are you brothers? you have the same answers ready |
| 14:14.45 | pancaker | DocScrutinizer05: very cool |
| 14:15.05 | pancaker | im guessing its not made in a way to easily tie into other projects though right? |
| 14:15.13 | pancaker | ie PiPhone |
| 14:15.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93095 |
| 14:15.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | has links to all the datasheets |
| 14:15.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | #2 |
| 14:15.43 | dos1 | mvaenskae: nah, just NSA agents |
| 14:15.47 | dos1 | we have scripts to follow :) |
| 14:17.27 | mvaenskae | dos1: liar, if you were you would have burnt it into my screen =p |
| 14:17.29 | pancaker | data sheets comment was for me? |
| 14:17.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | pancaker: here's one http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cint...t_PLS8_web.pdf |
| 14:17.49 | pancaker | DocScrutinizer05: got a full link? |
| 14:17.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh |
| 14:18.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cinterion/downloads/datasheets/gemalto_datasheet_PLS8_web.pdf |
| 14:18.13 | pancaker | thanks |
| 14:18.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw |
| 14:18.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's quite a number of similar modules out there to choose from |
| 14:19.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | none of them is FOSS |
| 14:19.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's not possible |
| 14:19.46 | pancaker | thanks DocScrutinizer05 |
| 14:20.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | telit, qualcom, I forgot the names |
| 14:21.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | OEMs use chips rather than modules. To do that you need to buy really high quantities of those baseband chips so the chip manufacturer considers helping with design |
| 14:22.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia for example even used own chips |
| 14:22.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | BB5 modem |
| 14:22.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | (c) Nokia |
| 14:25.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | pancaker: and again: the "adapter" is a module (hardware) with an USB interface |
| 14:25.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's really simple to 'integrate it' into other designs |
| 14:25.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, *our* modem is... |
| 14:26.38 | pancaker | DocScrutinizer05: that makes more sense, thanks! |
| 14:27.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | modem of Samsung and Jolla and whatnot else is tightly integrated into the one huge chip with all the functions of the system, so for those devices situation is significantly different |
| 14:28.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | so different that they can't even guarantee security of their design |
| 14:28.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually the modem can take over control of whole device on those desgns |
| 14:29.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | while on our design that's physically impossible |
| 14:29.28 | pancaker | so neo900 wont have 1 chip with many functions, but will have more modular parts, where in the case of the baseband chip, will have a separate chip dedicated to talking to cell networks, and it will have opensource firmware? I dont get the purpose of the USB interface |
| 14:29.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, basically |
| 14:30.41 | pancaker | does the USB interface allow the modular baseband chip to tie into other platforms easily? |
| 14:30.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | except that the baseband chip/module doesn't have FOSS firmware, never |
| 14:30.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 14:31.08 | pancaker | it doesnt come with it, but allows devs to write open source replacement? |
| 14:31.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 14:31.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't mess with baseband firmware |
| 14:31.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's locked down so nobody can modify it |
| 14:32.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | except manufactuer who has the key to unlock |
| 14:32.13 | dos1 | pancaker: see out first presentation by Nikolaus from OHSW on YouTube - he had "first prototype" there, which was basically modem with USB pins connected to USB socket |
| 14:32.28 | pancaker | will check it out dos1 thanks |
| 14:32.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 14:32.51 | pancaker | mfg meaning neo900 or the chip maker |
| 14:32.59 | dos1 | pancaker: he connected it to his PC and talked to it via emulated serial port, making a call to someone from the audience |
| 14:33.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course manufacturer of the chip |
| 14:34.12 | pancaker | but im confused from the start of our convo, how does neo900 get around the whole remote backdoor part, if it still uses a baseband chip, one that is dedicated to itself, the chip part, but doesnt run open source firmware |
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| 14:35.21 | pancaker | dos1: this vid? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPmXxq1MdQ |
| 14:35.29 | dos1 | yup |
| 14:35.32 | pancaker | thanks |
| 14:37.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | pancaker: how's abackdoor in your printer (for example) compromising your PC? |
| 14:37.53 | Zero_Chaos | DocScrutinizer05: well first it compromises your network, then everything else on it. |
| 14:38.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, since my printer has no access to any network |
| 14:38.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | it has an USB cable attached |
| 14:38.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and a mains cable |
| 14:38.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that's it |
| 14:38.54 | Zero_Chaos | DocScrutinizer05: yeah, but of course your printer doesn't have internet access, the baseband processor does. |
| 14:39.13 | Zero_Chaos | DocScrutinizer05: to be fair, his concern is legitimate even if a bit "tinfoil hat" |
| 14:39.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? how am I concerned about internet? |
| 14:39.40 | Zero_Chaos | DocScrutinizer05: if the baseband processor wants to send an extra copy of every bit to a different destination it can. |
| 14:39.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 14:39.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | so what? |
| 14:39.57 | dos1 | Zero_Chaos: as can your provider |
| 14:40.04 | Zero_Chaos | dos1: agreed entirely. |
| 14:40.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | do you have control over your bits that run through the internet? |
| 14:40.41 | Zero_Chaos | DocScrutinizer05: I'm just saying I believe that is pancaker's point, so comparing a printer to a networking device is like comparing a fish to a bicycle. |
| 14:40.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | do I know if my printer maybe has a GSM modem built in so it can talk to "the internet"? Do I worry? |
| 14:41.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, it's not |
| 14:41.18 | Zero_Chaos | DocScrutinizer05: ad absurdem is a weak defense. |
| 14:41.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | your concern is moot |
| 14:42.18 | Zero_Chaos | DocScrutinizer05: I have no concerns, I was simply trying to explina what pancaker is saying. target your words better :-P |
| 14:42.23 | pancaker | I just read an article by CNET about how dept of justice allows phones to be remotely turned on and then they cited a mafia case, I dont know if its true, ive heard many say its possible and that a "baseband adapter" is what allows it, thats all |
| 14:42.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | the modem is connected to internet, true. But it only sees bits and bytes I send to the internet *anyway* |
| 14:42.51 | pancaker | im ignorant about these phone parts, not technical like most of everyone here |
| 14:43.33 | Zero_Chaos | pancaker: in those cases it was the onstar system on the vehicle. |
| 14:43.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | pancaker: our modem has no control over any aspect of the system |
| 14:44.08 | Zero_Chaos | pancaker: if you are chiefly concerned with security, blackphone might interest you as well. |
| 14:44.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | no "remote turn-on" or whatever |
| 14:44.48 | pancaker | those silentcircle people work for US govt |
| 14:44.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | blackphone is bullshit, it has exactly this integrated modem that *can* take over control of whole system |
| 14:45.25 | Zero_Chaos | pancaker: lol, which one? |
| 14:45.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | on Neo900 it's physically impossible |
| 14:46.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | blackphone is Zimmerman integrating ZRTP into an android phone, nothing more basically |
| 14:48.05 | pancaker | Zero_Chaos: Mike Janke it seems |
| 14:49.10 | pancaker | the usb/modular/ baseband chip, can that be plugged into other platforms and basically say not to use onboard baseband adapter and use the one via USB? or its not that easy |
| 14:49.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know about other platforms |
| 14:50.26 | mvaenskae | the blackphone has a nice name but that's it |
| 14:50.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a zillion of USB UMTS dongles out there, check if they are supported by your other platform |
| 14:50.53 | mvaenskae | as soon as i saw it "another failed project, lucky for me i know of the neo900 project" |
| 14:51.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 14:51.51 | mvaenskae | seriously, the neo900 looks to be the "most" secure phone there is as the baseband CANNOT control anything it itself has access to |
| 14:52.07 | mvaenskae | has NOT access to |
| 14:52.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that's the idea |
| 14:52.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | AND we even do tight monitoring of the baseband module, so it can't even start doing things it shouldn't without us noticing it |
| 14:53.01 | mvaenskae | if i use the modem i am broadcasting and that makes me a potential target |
| 14:53.34 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: is there a hardware powerline to the chip the system can control? |
| 14:53.43 | dos1 | I always try to analize "what they have that we don't have, so they have more media buzz and attention" |
| 14:54.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes. Asking for complete privacy and secure connections while using internet access is something no network adapter can satisfy |
| 14:54.11 | dos1 | when any project similar to blackphone comes up |
| 14:54.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: we have very precise current gauges on all powerlines to the modem |
| 14:54.56 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: no way to turn it off in the sense if "unplugging" it? |
| 14:55.00 | dos1 | and generally I come to conclusion that they usually are just sacrificing some parts of security to look atractive in other aspects, like performance, and just not talking about such details :P |
| 14:55.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: there's a switch to turn it down. |
| 14:55.16 | dos1 | like integrated modem on blackphone |
| 14:55.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | mvaenskae: integrated |
| 14:55.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | it#s as good as any other switch |
| 14:55.38 | mvaenskae | integrated switch to turn modem off --> already beats blackphone |
| 14:55.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | we can check if it does what it should |
| 14:56.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, obviously it beats blackphone since on blackphone the modem is integrated into SoC and you can't power down the SoC and hope to still use the device |
| 14:57.15 | mvaenskae | DocScrutinizer05: i believe the "black" and "secure" comes from the fact that as soon as you turn the screen off it turns black and then it is secure ;) |
| 14:57.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you can't probe the power consumption of the modem part of the SoC, like we do for modem module |
| 14:58.01 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: idea: we need a full blown article about your modem firewall solution, describing it in a way so both non-technical people will understand the general concept, and technical ones will be able to get some details from it |
| 14:58.26 | dos1 | that could be very buzz-worthy |
| 14:58.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: problem: i'm a terrible writer |
| 14:58.30 | Zero_Chaos | this would be a worthwhile use of time ^^ |
| 14:58.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: close to illiterate |
| 14:59.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | I planned such article in January, and haven't made any progress on it so far |
| 15:00.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | all my articles ever getting published been always with a co-author |
| 15:00.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | see e.g. |
| 15:00.43 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: so maybe just describe it, even in form of bulleted list or something like that, and then I (or someone else) will write an article based on it? |
| 15:00.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | +batteryfaq |
| 15:00.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~batteryfaq |
| 15:00.54 | infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, batteryfaq is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers |
| 15:01.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: sounds like a deal |
| 15:04.38 | dos1 | great, that sure has potential to generate some additional interest :) |
| 15:08.06 | mvaenskae | maybe hire someone from apple... those fella seem to be all about marketing |
| 15:36.57 | FIQ | yeah seems like they usually get stuff done by marketing |
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