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| 00:17.49 | CosmoHill | night night |
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| 02:05.43 | yy | ahah |
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| 05:28.32 | Gorroth | hi |
| 05:28.39 | Stskeeps | hi |
| 05:29.58 | Gorroth | i once got meego installed on my phone, and it got to an xterm |
| 05:30.03 | Gorroth | after that, nothing |
| 05:30.05 | Stskeeps | install a later image |
| 05:30.06 | Gorroth | what do i do after that? |
| 05:30.28 | Stskeeps | you'll need a microsd card and http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php and http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC |
| 05:30.30 | Gorroth | from here: http://meegoarena.com/2010/03/meego-now-available-for-download-for-nokia-n900/ ? |
| 05:30.37 | Gorroth | ok |
| 05:30.57 | Gorroth | thanks |
| 05:30.58 | Stskeeps | don't use shady news sites for information :) |
| 05:31.29 | Gorroth | meh |
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| 05:31.33 | Gorroth | i used the main site in the past |
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| 05:32.45 | Gorroth | anyway, do they yet have sweet tools in meego to sync contacts with what's in my google account? |
| 05:32.50 | Stskeeps | nop |
| 05:32.54 | Stskeeps | well, at least not handset |
| 05:32.54 | Gorroth | dang |
| 05:32.56 | Gorroth | ah |
| 05:33.06 | Gorroth | that will be nice if it shows up; my android phone has that |
| 05:33.36 | Stskeeps | yeah, but android phones are usually blessed with google apps ;) |
| 05:33.58 | Gorroth | yes |
| 05:34.07 | Gorroth | but should be open protocols, at least i'd think |
| 05:34.12 | sandst1 | and i guess it will show up once the os shows up :) |
| 05:34.12 | Gorroth | i don't know about this though |
| 05:34.16 | Gorroth | yeah |
| 05:34.27 | w00t_ | doubtful |
| 05:34.43 | Gorroth | i just want my n900 to be relevant :) nokia basically screwed up almost immediately with it |
| 05:34.43 | w00t_ | well, yes, google offer syncml, but it's contacts only |
| 05:34.49 | Gorroth | screwed us* |
| 05:34.56 | w00t_ | and you would be able to get that working with syncevolution or something |
| 05:35.02 | Gorroth | ah |
| 05:35.03 | w00t_ | (probably) |
| 05:35.12 | w00t_ | but it would take some work. :p |
| 05:35.17 | Gorroth | yeah |
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| 05:40.51 | Gorroth | hi again |
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| 05:46.57 | amjad | waiting to see if i get sponsored for dublin :) |
| 05:47.32 | Stskeeps | still some time to go on that matter |
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| 05:48.59 | sofar | I'm waiting to see if I get ordered to go ;) |
| 05:49.02 | amjad | yes, they decision will be made by end of september /beginning of october |
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| 06:21.56 | amjad | for non eu citizens, start your visa process now :) |
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| 06:25.30 | thiago_home | process for? |
| 06:25.43 | sofar | dublin immigration :) |
| 06:26.09 | thiago_home | don't they give you visas on arrival? |
| 06:26.13 | thiago_home | they did in 2006 when I was there |
| 06:26.29 | sofar | are you an EU citizen or US citizen? |
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| 06:26.38 | thiago_home | no, Brazilian citizen |
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| 06:26.57 | sofar | http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Do_I_need_a_Visa |
| 06:27.24 | amjad | i am indian citizen |
| 06:27.33 | sofar | Brazil is a schedule 1 land |
| 06:27.58 | amjad | thiago_home: read the latest email on meego-community regarding sponsorship |
| 06:28.06 | sofar | India does not appear in schedule 1 |
| 06:28.23 | sofar | so you will need a visa before landing in Ireland if you're an India |
| 06:28.26 | sofar | *n |
| 06:28.30 | Gorroth | i'm a US citizen |
| 06:28.36 | Gorroth | do i need a visa to stay home? |
| 06:28.51 | sofar | USA is a sched1 country -> no visa needed beforehand to fly to ireland |
| 06:28.53 | thiago_home | was there in 2006 |
| 06:28.59 | sofar | Gorroth: no but you need a gun permit |
| 06:29.04 | thiago_home | this order is apparently from 2004 |
| 06:29.07 | Gorroth | no, you only need a gun permit in 2 states |
| 06:29.16 | achipa | thiago_home: depends on the country AFAIK |
| 06:29.26 | Gorroth | which i don't see how that's legal, but i will digress from that subject for now |
| 06:29.28 | sofar | Gorroth: depends on what you're doing with it |
| 06:29.39 | Gorroth | no, it depends on the state |
| 06:29.52 | sofar | Gorroth: also depends on the weapon too |
| 06:30.13 | Gorroth | no, it doesn't |
| 06:30.19 | Gorroth | again depends on state |
| 06:30.28 | sofar | -off-topic, self-censoring |
| 06:30.48 | Gorroth | yes, that's what i tried to say earlier :) |
| 06:30.57 | thiago_home | achipa: my citizenship hasn't changed since 2006 |
| 06:31.10 | sofar | anyone having doubts about immigration visa, please check the irish immigration website etc. |
| 06:31.15 | sofar | http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Do_I_need_a_Visa |
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| 06:35.47 | thiago_home | this page says differently (yes, it's in Portuguese): http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=71344 |
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| 06:36.30 | sofar | LISTA DOS PAIÌSES CUJOS CIDADÃOS NÃO NECESSITAM DE VISTO DE ENTRADA: ... Brasil.... |
| 06:37.04 | sofar | that's what I said, no visa needed to enter? |
| 06:37.10 | thiago_home | the thing is: yes, you need a visa. but you get a visa at the airport |
| 06:37.16 | sofar | well yeah |
| 06:37.27 | sofar | enter without, stay with valid visa :) |
| 06:37.37 | sofar | that's how most countries in the world are |
| 06:37.52 | sofar | it's just a stamp in your passport usually |
| 06:37.53 | thiago_home | see also this one: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/coming-to-live-in-ireland/visa-requirements-for-entering-ireland |
| 06:39.32 | amjad | india is neither in sched 1 or sched 2 ?? |
| 06:40.00 | thiago_home | an again: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/travel-to-ireland/visas_for_tourists_visiting_ireland |
| 06:40.15 | thiago_home | if you're not listed in the "you don't require visa", then you do require a visa |
| 06:40.26 | sofar | correct |
| 06:40.31 | thiago_home | if you're not listed in the list "you require a transit visa", then you can land in ireland and connect to another flight without a visa |
| 06:40.42 | sofar | so, India is not listed |
| 06:41.00 | sofar | so, people from india can transit, but not enter Ireland without an entry visa |
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| 06:42.10 | thiago_home | contact the embassy or closest consulate |
| 06:42.15 | thiago_home | that's a question they know well |
| 06:42.51 | sofar | amjad: I suggest that exactly: take your passport to the local irish consulate/embassy |
| 06:43.06 | sofar | I do not know what they require |
| 06:43.31 | thiago_home | call them first :-) |
| 06:43.41 | adeus | knowing embassies, they want money :) |
| 06:43.49 | thiago_home | yes, which is why you should call |
| 06:44.10 | thiago_home | anyway, like I said, I have been to Ireland before |
| 06:44.39 | thiago_home | the immigration is like the UK: you talk to an officer at the airport, you explain you're coming for a conference, for N days, then you get a stamp |
| 06:44.49 | Gorroth | ireland might like india because they both start with I, but india is ranked higher in alphabetical listings |
| 06:44.57 | Gorroth | so they don't let you in |
| 06:45.08 | sofar | lol |
| 06:45.19 | thiago_home | Gorroth: well, Ireland in Irish starts with E :-) |
| 06:45.23 | Gorroth | oh |
| 06:45.26 | sofar | pwnd |
| 06:45.31 | Gorroth | :) |
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| 06:49.51 | thiago_home | then again, it depends on your collation order |
| 06:50.09 | thiago_home | it's Ãire |
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| 06:51.08 | john1 | fabo:ping |
| 06:51.32 | john1 | fabo: p |
| 06:52.05 | fabo | john1: pong |
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| 06:52.26 | john1 | I'm looking at your packages. |
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| 06:53.05 | john1 | There's no pacakge depends on madde? |
| 06:54.13 | fabo | john1: not yet, it's supposed to be pull through meta package |
| 06:54.41 | john1 | is "meego-sdk" the meta package? |
| 06:54.50 | fabo | atm, you need to specify which package you want to install until we polish the meta |
| 06:55.08 | fabo | john1: yes or meego-sdk-x86 |
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| 06:57.22 | john1 | OK. I see. |
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| 07:02.54 | achipa | thiago_home: cool, but Brazil (IIUC your citizenship) is on the visa-free list. Some of us sadly travel with papers from countries NOT on that list |
| 07:03.34 | sofar | achipa: yup, unfortunately for some people visiting the conference is a lot more work |
| 07:03.39 | sofar | take me, for instance |
| 07:04.02 | sofar | I'm a EU citizen, yet I had to travel 1200km in order to be able to make it there :) |
| 07:04.17 | sofar | that's what you get if you live in the US and you need to renew your passport, lol |
| 07:04.30 | achipa | thiago_home: (just realized my native European country is in the company of Afghanistan, Cuba and similarly exotic places) |
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| 07:17.42 | thiago_home | sofar: can't you renew your passport in a closer embassy or consulate? |
| 07:17.59 | thiago_home | sofar: or was 1200 km the closest consulate? |
| 07:18.00 | sofar | I would have |
| 07:18.02 | sofar | yes |
| 07:18.14 | sofar | from Portland, the closest is San Francisco |
| 07:18.31 | sofar | otherwise it's Chicago or worse, Washington DC lol |
| 07:19.29 | thiago_home | that explains |
| 07:19.45 | thiago_home | the embassy is much closer for me... about 20 tram stops only |
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| 09:01.14 | arfoll | does anyone here know the difference between an aava EV1 and an EV2 and a DV1? |
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| 10:22.48 | CosmoHill | tekojo: ethernet cable again? |
| 10:23.17 | tekojo | no, playing with Ubuntu maverick :) |
| 10:24.36 | CosmoHill | "the pen far mighter than the sword he said, then he stabbed his pen into my leg" |
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| 10:28.40 | CosmoHill | I'm making a openmpi rpm |
| 10:31.46 | FunkyPenguin | um is bognor-regis & bickley still being used? |
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| 10:36.00 | CosmoHill | headbangs desk |
| 10:36.16 | CosmoHill | mpi is a protocol so what does it need? ports to be opened |
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| 10:42.58 | jacekowski | mpi ussualy works over ssh |
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| 10:44.50 | CosmoHill | i have a linux server, linux vm (same distro), a mac and I'll boot RHEL on my laptop |
| 10:45.38 | CosmoHill | mac is version 0.2 behind linux |
| 10:45.53 | CosmoHill | that might need to be recompiled |
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| 11:00.07 | Stskeeps | dotblank: had any success? |
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| 11:08.04 | CosmoHill | hmm, crap |
| 11:08.21 | CosmoHill | firewall wouldn't have anything to do with it cos it doesn't filter the LAN |
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| 11:16.10 | stephg | Sage: yt? |
| 11:17.00 | CosmoHill | hmm, it is my firewall |
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| 12:00.55 | Ravey | i guys im trying to install the header files for gstreamer like this: zypper install libgstreamer0.10-dev |
| 12:01.06 | Ravey | however it complains it cannot find the package - any ideas? |
| 12:01.34 | CosmoHill | try: zypper search gstreamer |
| 12:01.45 | Ravey | thanks CosmoHill will do |
| 12:02.23 | Ravey | great thanks it's listed everything i need - much appreciated |
| 12:02.43 | CosmoHill | no problem :) |
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| 12:11.37 | CosmoHill | "COMPAQ PRESARIO 2100 MOTHERBOARD IS FAULTY & DEAD - IN VERY GOOD CONDITION" |
| 12:11.49 | CosmoHill | that seems to contradict itself |
| 12:12.15 | lcuk | shiny and clean, no dust bunnies or scratches |
| 12:12.19 | thiago | it's faulty & dead, but in very good condition otherwise |
| 12:12.23 | thiago | yeah, like that |
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| 12:15.07 | CosmoHill | only reason I'm looking is incase I kill the current motherboard |
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| 13:56.01 | ville | Howdy. Any idea what sort of schedule there is before a meego phone hits the retailers? |
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| 14:42.33 | CosmoHill | returns |
| 14:43.34 | *** join/#meego chemfy (~chemfy@dyn2-212-50-133-130.psoas.suomi.net) |
| 14:44.00 | dotblank | Stskeeps, I got the meego sdk working but that seems horribly out of date. I also can't make a custom image because of the libc problem with mic |
| 14:44.34 | CosmoHill | could you not run "zypper update" inside the SDK vm? |
| 14:44.48 | dotblank | CosmoHill, I could try |
| 14:46.25 | dotblank | I'm not familiar with how meego does packaging |
| 14:46.56 | *** join/#meego TSCHAKeee2 (~TSCHAKeee@c-65-96-164-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 14:47.15 | gabrbedd | CosmoHill: That reminds me... should I be using zypper or yum. |
| 14:47.26 | CosmoHill | zypper |
| 14:47.31 | slaine | Thought it was either |
| 14:47.37 | CosmoHill | I think yum will be removed at some point |
| 14:47.41 | slaine | Oh |
| 14:47.45 | slaine | uses yum |
| 14:48.31 | gabrbedd | CosmoHill: Thanks. Yeah, apt-get didn't work so I had to punt. :-p |
| 14:49.35 | gabrbedd | just realized that not everyone understands his reference to american football... |
| 14:49.43 | *** join/#meego baraujo (~Bruno@189.2.128.130) |
| 14:50.27 | *** join/#meego ragner (~ragner@189.2.128.130) |
| 14:50.36 | gabrbedd | CosmoHill: So, if I've been using yum... how do I go back to using zypper. |
| 14:50.49 | gabrbedd | CosmoHill: Seems like they don't work well together. |
| 14:51.35 | CosmoHill | probably best to stick with what you're using |
| 14:51.54 | gabrbedd | ok. I'll switch on the next reinstall. |
| 14:52.02 | slaine | you could probably clean your yum cache and then try getting zypper to pull in some fresh data |
| 14:52.04 | slaine | yum clean all |
| 14:52.19 | *** join/#meego zenvoid (~rgs@18.pool85-53-196.dynamic.orange.es) |
| 14:53.40 | jniq | from what i can tell they should not have any problem working together (or one after another :O) |
| 14:54.18 | slaine | they shouldn't |
| 15:00.29 | amjad | i like yum :) |
| 15:01.17 | amjad | and it was created by my former company (yellow dog updater) before being developed and stabilized by duke |
| 15:01.21 | CosmoHill | i think it depends where they get there data from |
| 15:01.29 | CosmoHill | they might have different databases |
| 15:01.37 | CosmoHill | you might be able to update one from the other |
| 15:02.28 | jniq | yes, the use their own databases, except the rpm database of installed packages |
| 15:02.35 | *** join/#meego dotblank (~eli@pool-71-176-226-7.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) |
| 15:02.38 | jniq | s/the/they/ |
| 15:03.36 | CosmoHill | i just thought of that |
| 15:03.50 | CosmoHill | my server doesn't have yum or zypper |
| 15:03.55 | CosmoHill | I use rpm directly |
| 15:05.18 | jniq | CosmoHill: that's also a way to go, but yum or zypper give you automatic dependency solving, and a lot of other things |
| 15:05.45 | CosmoHill | this is true |
| 15:06.08 | CosmoHill | however my server runs a custom distro which I have to compile everything for :) |
| 15:08.56 | *** join/#meego Vanadis (~Vanadis@84-75-182-160.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 15:10.30 | dotblank | I run ubuntu and I feel like Ive already compiled from git/bzr/svn half of the system |
| 15:10.52 | dotblank | slowly replacing my machone into this odd hybrid computer |
| 15:10.58 | dotblank | machine* |
| 15:11.35 | CosmoHill | I've formated my server before and then gone: |
| 15:11.56 | CosmoHill | "oh crap, I had stuff I needed in /home. and I have no idea how I configured this stuff, dammnit" |
| 15:12.28 | *** join/#meego dailylinux (~test@s21-06205.dsl.no.powertech.net) |
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| 15:14.02 | gabrbedd | Hee hee... I can't say I've dont /that/ -- but close. |
| 15:14.36 | dotblank | I have /home on a separate partition |
| 15:15.23 | *** join/#meego _Lucretia_ (~munkee@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia) |
| 15:15.41 | _Lucretia_ | anybody replaced the toolchain in madde? |
| 15:16.24 | *** join/#meego _wolf_ (~wolf@cs27009233.pp.htv.fi) |
| 15:16.37 | CosmoHill | I wonder if anyone (probably kids) think that the intel processor range went: i3, i386, i486, i5, i586, i686, i7 |
| 15:17.26 | dotblank | lol intel, I have a hp processor |
| 15:17.52 | CosmoHill | so do I :) |
| 15:18.02 | CosmoHill | HPPA 7100 80Mhz :) |
| 15:18.24 | *** join/#meego _wolf_ (~wolf@cs27009233.pp.htv.fi) |
| 15:18.37 | CosmoHill | is it wrong that my iPod can out perform this computer? |
| 15:18.42 | dotblank | Ive got an Aztec Cortex in my phone |
| 15:19.19 | CosmoHill | ipod: 2 x 80Mhz, 64MB RAM, 80GB HDD |
| 15:19.29 | CosmoHill | computer: 1 x 80Mhz, 64MB RAM, 1GB SCSI |
| 15:19.45 | *** join/#meego yrgd (~yrgd@c-98-235-44-106.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 15:19.45 | dotblank | my phone outpowers my grandfathers computer |
| 15:20.08 | CosmoHill | was he a grandad when he bought it? |
| 15:20.10 | lcuk | we got the to moon with a sliderule |
| 15:20.10 | dotblank | 400mhz with a 700mb hard drive |
| 15:20.22 | dotblank | CosmoHill, no |
| 15:20.32 | CosmoHill | was he a father? |
| 15:20.39 | dotblank | yes |
| 15:20.47 | dotblank | I'm fairly young |
| 15:21.34 | CosmoHill | is this where you say something older than me? |
| 15:21.34 | lcuk | http://i.imgur.com/9h8HU.jpg |
| 15:21.41 | lcuk | CosmoHill, dotblank ^ |
| 15:21.59 | dotblank | lcuk, you browse reddit much? |
| 15:22.02 | CosmoHill | lol |
| 15:22.20 | lcuk | twitter at weekend |
| 15:22.31 | lcuk | i retweeted and your conversation reminded me :P |
| 15:23.31 | dotblank | I wonder if we can port Space Trajectory Analysis to meego/maemo |
| 15:23.45 | *** join/#meego sheepbat (~lev3k@2001:5c0:1000:b::71c7) |
| 15:23.49 | dotblank | I saw it was based off of qt |
| 15:24.39 | thiago | is that a game? |
| 15:24.57 | dotblank | No its used by the ESA and several schools |
| 15:25.14 | lcuk | n900fly teaches people about trajectory analysis |
| 15:25.23 | dotblank | http://sta.estec.esa.int/Space_Trajectory_Analysis/Home.html |
| 15:25.26 | thiago | lcuk: yep |
| 15:25.33 | thiago | you need to be good at that to beat the records |
| 15:25.46 | lcuk | thiago, i wonder how it would work on space station |
| 15:25.57 | lcuk | do astronauts taken nokias into space? |
| 15:26.15 | lcuk | -n |
| 15:26.22 | thiago | lcuk: hmm... does the accelerometer measure gravity? |
| 15:26.24 | thiago | tries |
| 15:26.49 | dotblank | lcuk, it would only show a change a velocity ie it would only register if you through it really fast or it hit a wall |
| 15:27.01 | dotblank | thiago, yes |
| 15:27.03 | lcuk | dotblank, 20000mph |
| 15:27.03 | dotblank | it does |
| 15:27.05 | gabrbedd | thiago: I think you have to drop your N900 from the 3rd floor to get a good measurement. |
| 15:27.27 | thiago | my on-desk device isn't reporting anything |
| 15:27.29 | lcuk | so it would get record supremeness if you fired it in a rocket and orbited a few times |
| 15:27.35 | *** join/#meego pcacjr (~pcacjr@unaffiliated/pcacjr) |
| 15:27.45 | thiago | so it requires free-fall to measure gravity |
| 15:27.48 | lcuk | thing is, would the guy get a 3g signal |
| 15:28.07 | dotblank | it takes the second anti-derivative of gravity to determine the fall distance and measures time till zero g |
| 15:28.21 | lcuk | cell tower handoffs at 35000feet are tough, 200miles can't be that much worse ;) |
| 15:29.04 | dotblank | its simple physics really |
| 15:29.07 | thiago | dotblank: you need to integrate twice |
| 15:29.16 | dotblank | thiago, right |
| 15:29.22 | thiago | "all computer problems can be solved by one extra level of indirection" |
| 15:29.30 | thiago | "all physics problems can be solved by one extra integral" |
| 15:29.33 | *** join/#meego afief (~user@IGLD-84-229-215-151.inter.net.il) |
| 15:29.34 | ali1234 | thiago: my n900 measures 1G directly down when "at rest" - as it should do |
| 15:29.47 | thiago | ali1234: I have a different device... |
| 15:29.51 | dotblank | ali1234, what happens if your on the moon |
| 15:29.57 | lcuk | ali1234, speak for yourself. it measures whatever local gravity is around :P |
| 15:30.02 | thiago | /dev/input/accelerometer is quiet with the device at rest |
| 15:30.07 | dotblank | ali1234, is there some constant set that determines what the 1g is? |
| 15:30.38 | ali1234 | dotblank: it would measure 0.16 on the moon |
| 15:30.46 | CosmoHill | mine says "buy me" |
| 15:30.51 | ali1234 | and yes, the chip can be calibrated |
| 15:30.56 | afief | what's the name of the repository in which meego-panel resides? |
| 15:31.01 | dotblank | so you can make a n900 app determine what planet you are on |
| 15:31.16 | ali1234 | not really no |
| 15:31.27 | ali1234 | it doesn't know it is at rest |
| 15:31.47 | dotblank | I think it does |
| 15:31.49 | *** join/#meego calvaris (~calvaris@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) |
| 15:31.54 | thiago | something like this: http://www.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=pt-BR#owgze1-rCng/include/hardware/sensors.h&q=libhardware package:"git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/hardware/libhardware.git"&sa=N&cd=10&ct=rc ? |
| 15:32.03 | thiago | #define GRAVITY_EARTH (9.80665f) |
| 15:32.11 | thiago | #define GRAVITY_MOON (1.6f) |
| 15:32.18 | lcuk | o_O |
| 15:32.20 | thiago | #define GRAVITY_DEATH_STAR_I (0.000000353036145f) |
| 15:32.30 | frals | haha |
| 15:32.41 | gabrbedd | CosmoHill: lol! |
| 15:32.51 | afief | Let the world know: We are ready to operate on a death star I |
| 15:32.51 | dotblank | I thought the accelerometer would measure gravity? |
| 15:33.02 | dotblank | how else would it know? |
| 15:33.04 | CosmoHill | thiago: did you see the Qt app I started? |
| 15:33.11 | thiago | CosmoHill: no, I haven't. Where is it? |
| 15:33.34 | ali1234 | dotblank: it measures proper acceleration, which is "what you feel when you go in a lift" |
| 15:33.35 | CosmoHill | http://black-flag.co.uk/files/node-selector.png |
| 15:34.32 | CosmoHill | ali1234: the thing that makes me close my eyes and be very very quiet? |
| 15:34.36 | thiago | CosmoHill: interesting. Do we get the hardware that it controls too? :-) |
| 15:35.03 | CosmoHill | you've got enough hardware you could probably vertialise my cluster AND out perform it |
| 15:35.21 | dotblank | Why does the n900 accelerometer app show gravity then? |
| 15:35.45 | thiago | wonders why the magnetometer has 3 axes |
| 15:35.45 | CosmoHill | something to do in long lifts? |
| 15:35.48 | ali1234 | dotblank: because you're constantly accelerating towards the ground |
| 15:36.05 | CosmoHill | something for the kids to watch on a hilly road? |
| 15:36.08 | dotblank | ali1234, right.... and that accel would be different on every planet |
| 15:36.16 | ali1234 | dotblank: yes |
| 15:36.24 | dotblank | thus you can find out what planet you are on by using that app |
| 15:36.32 | ali1234 | unless you're in freefall |
| 15:36.39 | ali1234 | then it reads 0 on any planet |
| 15:36.47 | dotblank | ali1234, right |
| 15:36.49 | ali1234 | and so on... |
| 15:37.01 | gabrbedd | wonders what planet he's on. |
| 15:37.06 | ali1234 | it only works if the n900 is on the ground |
| 15:37.22 | ali1234 | or rather, motionless relative to the ground |
| 15:37.23 | *** join/#meego Erkan_Yilmaz (~Erkan_Yil@wikimedia/Erkan-Yilmaz) |
| 15:37.26 | dotblank | because of the reference frame of the accelerometer |
| 15:37.29 | thiago | given its name, I'd expect an accelerometer to measure the acceleration of gravity |
| 15:38.01 | CosmoHill | 9.81m/s/s |
| 15:38.06 | ali1234 | acceleration due to gravity is just one component of what it measures |
| 15:38.18 | thiago | for a device at rest, I mean |
| 15:38.25 | dotblank | yes it could measure other things then just gravity |
| 15:38.50 | thiago | the gravity vector points in one direction only, which may or may not match the accelerometer's axes |
| 15:38.58 | thiago | but it should be constantly measuring it |
| 15:39.04 | ali1234 | it does |
| 15:39.06 | thiago | the only way not to see it would be to go to another planet |
| 15:39.21 | ali1234 | or put the accelerometer into freefall |
| 15:39.24 | dotblank | you could in thoery integrate position from the accel sensor and determine how far you've traveled in a car |
| 15:39.31 | ali1234 | then it will read 0 |
| 15:39.36 | thiago | ali1234: that doesn't change the acceleration |
| 15:39.41 | ali1234 | of course it does |
| 15:40.03 | ali1234 | it changes the proper acceleration |
| 15:40.13 | thiago | now, an accelerometer that measures the gravity isn't useful. It needs to measure the device's acceleration |
| 15:40.19 | thiago | and if it's at rest, it's not accelerating |
| 15:40.35 | ali1234 | it depends on the definition of "at rest" |
| 15:40.48 | dotblank | the sensor still reads a force acting on it |
| 15:40.57 | thiago | not subjected to external forces |
| 15:41.05 | thiago | net unbalanced external forces |
| 15:41.16 | ali1234 | "not subject to external forces" is impossible to achieve in the real universe |
| 15:41.23 | thiago | right |
| 15:41.30 | dotblank | its actually the net for in relation to the n900 |
| 15:41.33 | gabrbedd | if a device has constant velocity... it is not accelerating. So an accelerometer should read 0. |
| 15:41.35 | thiago | not subjected to net unbanalanced external focrces |
| 15:41.36 | dotblank | force |
| 15:41.52 | dotblank | the n900 at rest has net force zero |
| 15:42.02 | thiago | if the vector sum of all forces is null, then the accelerometer should zero in all axes |
| 15:42.05 | thiago | which it's doing |
| 15:43.21 | dotblank | if the n900 is falling.. the sensor relative to the n900 sees a force of 0 |
| 15:43.33 | thiago | that seems wrong |
| 15:43.39 | thiago | it's also different from the device I'm playing with |
| 15:43.42 | gabrbedd | dotblank: No, if the N900 is in terminal velocity... it sees 0. |
| 15:43.56 | ali1234 | in fact gravity is the one thing an accelerometer does not measure |
| 15:43.57 | gabrbedd | dotblank: But when you first drop it, it sees 9.81 m/s^2. |
| 15:44.20 | thiago | ali1234: why not? |
| 15:44.21 | dotblank | Ok I just installed an app to measure it on my n900 |
| 15:44.23 | thiago | just put it in free-fall |
| 15:44.30 | CosmoHill | I love it when new members join the forums (not meego) and instantly get into a fight with regulars |
| 15:44.40 | dotblank | at rest it reads -0.93 on the z axis |
| 15:44.53 | thiago | doesn't know how to read from /dev/input |
| 15:44.59 | ali1234 | the 9.8 /1G reading you get when the n900 is sitting on the floor is due to the reaction force exerted by the floor on the n900 which stops the n900 from being sucked to the core of the planet |
| 15:45.36 | CosmoHill | this is a weird physics lesson |
| 15:45.37 | dotblank | ali1234, right that makes sense |
| 15:45.43 | thiago | ali1234: the accelerometer shouldn't read anything if it's not being accelerated |
| 15:46.00 | *** join/#meego whitewine (~whitewine@95.106.98.78) |
| 15:46.06 | dotblank | ali1234, but what direction is the positive z direction relative to the n900? |
| 15:46.15 | dotblank | cause I read -0.93 |
| 15:46.31 | GAN900 | thiago, it's always being accelerated on a planet. |
| 15:46.33 | ali1234 | dotblank: it's either up or down depending on how you look at it |
| 15:46.39 | thiago | GAN900: no, it's not |
| 15:46.45 | thiago | it's always subjected to gravity, that's different |
| 15:46.46 | rkbm | in free fall it's not |
| 15:46.56 | thiago | rkbm: no, in free fall it's being accelerated |
| 15:47.00 | thiago | at rest, it's not accelerating |
| 15:47.05 | dotblank | the frame of referance to the n900 and the sensor sees 0 acceleration |
| 15:47.26 | thiago | you can make a device that measures the gravity |
| 15:47.29 | dotblank | thiago, in freefall its accelerating relative to the ground |
| 15:47.41 | dotblank | thiago, but the n900 can't see that |
| 15:47.55 | thiago | and I can imagine that some accelerometer devices actually report the acceleration of gravity, as if the device were in free fall |
| 15:48.46 | dotblank | thiago, right now my n900 is reporting the reactive force of my desk with my n900 which happens to = gravity in the opposite direction |
| 15:48.47 | *** join/#meego fredy (~quassel@189.2.128.130) |
| 15:49.33 | thiago | imagine the accelerometer is 3-axis spring+load system |
| 15:49.43 | thiago | and the value reported is the extension of the spring |
| 15:49.54 | dotblank | in free fall it reports 0 acceleration |
| 15:49.54 | thiago | the spring parallel to gravity will be reporting acceleration |
| 15:50.08 | *** part/#meego _Lucretia_ (~munkee@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia) |
| 15:50.29 | ali1234 | if you put that on a space station in orbit it will read 0 |
| 15:50.30 | thiago | but the device isn't being accelerated |
| 15:50.31 | dotblank | thiago, but in freefall the device whatever the spring is connected to is also accelerating |
| 15:50.45 | ali1234 | but if the space station is not affected by gravity, what keeps it in orbit? |
| 15:50.45 | thiago | dotblank: right. That's a construction issue |
| 15:50.56 | thiago | ali1234: the space stations are in constant free-fall |
| 15:51.10 | ali1234 | exactly. free-fall = weightless = accelerometer reads 0 |
| 15:51.35 | thiago | I think it just depends on the device's construction |
| 15:51.38 | dotblank | ali1234, ats actually the centrifugal force acting on the station.. thats why it has to move fast around the earth |
| 15:51.54 | thiago | dotblank: centrifugal force is fictitious |
| 15:52.03 | ali1234 | centripetal force isn't though |
| 15:52.17 | dotblank | I might have gotten 2 of them backwards |
| 15:52.22 | ali1234 | and the orbit speed does have to be correct to balance everything out |
| 15:52.30 | thiago | ali1234: in the device I described, the accelerometer would read the gravity |
| 15:52.34 | gabrbedd | ali1234: No, free-fall is not weightless. Terminal velocity is. |
| 15:52.52 | thiago | ali1234: but it could be constructed in a way that it measures actual acceleration of the device |
| 15:53.00 | thiago | ali1234: and if it's at rest, it's not being accelerated |
| 15:53.27 | dotblank | well I have my n900 right now and when the device is at rest it measures gravity when falling it measures 0 |
| 15:53.35 | ali1234 | gabrbedd: no. free-fall = weightless. terminal velocity = the max speed due to wind resistance, and since you stop accelerating here, you stop being weightless too |
| 15:53.46 | thiago | think about an INS: it's constantly integrating the acceleration to calculate the position |
| 15:53.54 | rkbm | when youre trapped in a box unable to look outside you won't be able to distinguish if any acceleration you feel is caused by gravity or something else (rocket engine etc.). |
| 15:54.09 | gabrbedd | ali1234: Look, acceleration is the time-derivative of velocity. |
| 15:54.12 | thiago | if one axis is measuring acceleration, then the integration will conclude that you have velocity in that direction (and that velocity is changing), and therefore your position is changing |
| 15:54.22 | gabrbedd | ali1234: If your velocity is changing... you are accelerating. |
| 15:54.35 | gabrbedd | ali1234: When your velocity stops changing, acceleration is 0. |
| 15:54.50 | dotblank | in referance to the ground |
| 15:54.57 | thiago | no reference |
| 15:55.00 | ali1234 | gabrbedd: and that has nothing to do with "weightlessness" |
| 15:55.01 | thiago | acceleration doesn't need reference |
| 15:55.01 | dotblank | but say some other object falling nexct to you its 0 |
| 15:55.14 | dotblank | thiago, ummm..... |
| 15:55.23 | gabrbedd | ali1234: Terminal velocity is when wind resistance is enough to overcome the force of gravity and your accel. goes to 0. |
| 15:55.45 | ali1234 | that's right |
| 15:55.49 | gabrbedd | ali1234: When your accelleration is 0, then is is an experience like weightlessness. |
| 15:55.51 | dotblank | position is relative and it doesn't matter if you take a derivitive of it its still relative |
| 15:55.58 | ali1234 | so since you are no longer in free fall you are no longer weightless |
| 15:56.03 | thiago | gabrbedd: no, that's the experience of being at rest |
| 15:56.33 | *** join/#meego TSCHAKeee2 (~TSCHAKeee@c-65-96-164-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 15:56.33 | dotblank | in fact acceleration HAS to be relative |
| 15:56.46 | thiago | dotblank: no... velocity has to |
| 15:56.52 | *** join/#meego fredy (~quassel@189.2.128.130) |
| 15:57.01 | thiago | dotblank: speed is relative. Acceleration isn't. |
| 15:57.08 | dotblank | thiago, mathematically it doesn't |
| 15:57.15 | thiago | dotblank: physically it is |
| 15:57.28 | thiago | if you're in an accelerating frame of reference, you'll find fictitious forces |
| 15:57.41 | thiago | forces that seemingly violate the Action/Reaction law |
| 15:57.56 | dotblank | so what your saying is that acceleration isn't relative? |
| 15:57.58 | dotblank | what? |
| 15:58.00 | thiago | yes, I am |
| 15:58.06 | thiago | at least in classical physics |
| 15:58.16 | thiago | to make it non-relative, you need to go to General Relativity |
| 15:58.19 | dotblank | um im not so sure of that |
| 15:58.21 | dotblank | how can it be |
| 15:58.29 | CosmoHill | gets itchy trigger fingers |
| 15:58.30 | *** part/#meego vgrade_ (50b13a86@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.177.58.134) |
| 15:58.41 | CosmoHill | that wasn't me |
| 15:58.48 | thiago | dotblank: imagine it like this: you're at the same velocity as your frame of reference |
| 15:58.54 | dotblank | k |
| 15:58.55 | thiago | that is, you're inside this train carriage |
| 15:59.01 | dotblank | right |
| 15:59.02 | thiago | acceleration is zero for both |
| 15:59.08 | dotblank | right |
| 15:59.18 | thiago | now you suddenly accelerate. The train doesn't. |
| 15:59.21 | thiago | you notice it, right? |
| 15:59.36 | dotblank | right |
| 15:59.41 | thiago | now imagine the inverse: the train accelerates |
| 15:59.53 | thiago | if you're standing in the middle of the carriage, you notice it, right? |
| 16:00.11 | dotblank | right |
| 16:00.16 | thiago | what if you're standing leaning on the bulkhead |
| 16:00.17 | dotblank | but thats inertia |
| 16:00.24 | thiago | you'll accelerate with the train, right? |
| 16:00.32 | ali1234 | if you are leaning on the bulkhead you feel exactly the same thing |
| 16:00.38 | thiago | but you still feel it |
| 16:00.38 | dotblank | if you don't move in the train and the train accelerates |
| 16:00.39 | ali1234 | you still feel the acceleration |
| 16:00.53 | thiago | that's exactly it: inertia |
| 16:00.55 | TSCHAKeee2 | smiles |
| 16:01.01 | dotblank | then technically your acceleration to the train is 0 relative to the train |
| 16:01.16 | dotblank | to the ground its differant |
| 16:01.26 | thiago | right, but you felt the acceleration, right? |
| 16:01.30 | thiago | even if you couldn't see outside |
| 16:01.31 | dotblank | right |
| 16:01.37 | gabrbedd | FYI: the vomit comet is designed to emulate a 0g environment. The 0g portion is at the top when acceleration is close to 0. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomit_Comet |
| 16:01.44 | thiago | that means you can tell an accelerating frame of reference from an inertial one |
| 16:01.56 | *** join/#meego GordonS (~gordons@silverpath.valleyhold.org) |
| 16:02.06 | TSCHAKeee2 | especially when you're drunk |
| 16:02.09 | TSCHAKeee2 | *ba-dum-ching* |
| 16:02.10 | thiago | yep |
| 16:02.21 | thiago | a good example of a non-inertial frame of reference is the surface of the Earth |
| 16:02.34 | thiago | fill a bucket of water and make hole in the bottom |
| 16:02.41 | thiago | see a vortex effect? |
| 16:02.50 | TSCHAKeee2 | ;) |
| 16:03.00 | ali1234 | oh no... |
| 16:03.06 | dotblank | thiago, well you may need to scale it slightly larger |
| 16:03.20 | thiago | it's a simple test to verify that you are in a non-inertial frame of reference |
| 16:03.43 | thiago | the coriolis force is fictitious |
| 16:04.40 | dotblank | lets say our entire solar system is accelerating towards some black hole.. would you feel it? |
| 16:05.00 | thiago | yes |
| 16:05.18 | ali1234 | how? |
| 16:05.36 | thiago | by measuring a fictitious force |
| 16:05.53 | ali1234 | you can't measure an individual force |
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| 16:05.57 | thiago | you can |
| 16:05.59 | ali1234 | you can only measure the sum of them |
| 16:06.03 | thiago | right |
| 16:06.12 | thiago | but if you account for everything else and you still have a non-zero result... |
| 16:06.41 | ali1234 | so how does your measurement device measure "everything else" in order to subtract it? |
| 16:06.54 | thiago | imagine we're on a spaceship with no windows and we're accelerating towards a black hole |
| 16:07.05 | ali1234 | ok |
| 16:07.07 | thiago | if you put a ball on a table, it's going to fall, right? |
| 16:07.11 | ali1234 | no |
| 16:07.17 | ali1234 | everything in the spaceship will be weightless |
| 16:07.18 | thiago | (suppose we have artificial gravity) |
| 16:07.21 | dotblank | you would feel inertial force in opposition to the acceleration towards the black holes |
| 16:07.22 | thiago | yes |
| 16:07.28 | thiago | even if we are outside of gravity |
| 16:07.37 | thiago | the ball will still fall towards one of the bulkheads |
| 16:07.43 | ali1234 | no, that's incorrect |
| 16:07.47 | thiago | sorry, it is |
| 16:07.50 | dotblank | but the question is more on the lines of inertia |
| 16:07.55 | gabrbedd | if you're accel. toward a black hole... you're not actually "weightless" -- you're in a micro-g environment. |
| 16:08.39 | gabrbedd | mass is the measure of interia. acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. |
| 16:08.41 | dotblank | inertia resists change in position right? so there must be a way to have absolute position then |
| 16:08.46 | gabrbedd | mass x accelertation = force. |
| 16:08.54 | thiago | dotblank: resists change in velocity |
| 16:09.00 | gabrbedd | inertia is a tendency to resist change. |
| 16:09.24 | dotblank | thiago, ah ok |
| 16:09.27 | thiago | you can measure gravity, right? |
| 16:09.37 | thiago | my spring and load system |
| 16:09.47 | ali1234 | no |
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| 16:10.16 | thiago | if you put a load at one end of a spring and hold it upright, you won't notice that the spring is extended? |
| 16:10.22 | dotblank | you can measure the normal reactive force against gravity |
| 16:10.27 | ali1234 | yeah but that isn't measuring gravity |
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| 16:10.40 | dotblank | it happens to equal gravity soo |
| 16:10.44 | thiago | well, you're measuring the extension of the spring |
| 16:10.44 | ali1234 | that's measuring proper acceleration |
| 16:11.12 | thiago | from the extension of the spring, you can calculate the force that the load was subjected to |
| 16:11.19 | ali1234 | if i grab the weight and pull on it, did gravity change? |
| 16:11.29 | dotblank | actually the centripetal force of use spining around earth's axis is subtracting from gravity we experiance |
| 16:11.29 | thiago | ali1234: that's another good example |
| 16:11.35 | dotblank | us* |
| 16:11.35 | gabrbedd | Measuring gravity with high precision: http://www.earthsci.unimelb.edu.au/ES304/MODULES/GRAV/NOTES/measgrv.html |
| 16:11.52 | thiago | if there were no gravity, the load would stay in constant direction after you ceased pulling on it |
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| 16:11.56 | thiago | right? |
| 16:12.05 | thiago | newton's first law |
| 16:12.30 | dotblank | I feel like asking #physics |
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| 16:13.01 | thiago | let's try this: pick up something, hold it with your arm extended, then open your hand |
| 16:13.04 | thiago | does it fall? |
| 16:13.11 | dotblank | thiago, yes |
| 16:13.13 | ShadowJK | imagines the gravity gradient would let you determine the direction of the sum of all gravity forces you're experiencing, but not the magnitude without observing your acceleration |
| 16:13.26 | thiago | that means the object, which was at rest, was accelerated, right? |
| 16:13.58 | dotblank | thiago, right but from the ferefance of the rock the molecules did not change in relation to each other |
| 16:14.16 | thiago | we concluded that from newton's first law |
| 16:14.22 | thiago | the second law says there was a force |
| 16:14.31 | thiago | the third law says there must have been a reaction force |
| 16:14.32 | thiago | where is it? |
| 16:14.33 | gabrbedd | dotblank: Centripetal acceleration is velocity^2 / radius... I've never calculated it for earth... but I'll bet it's small enough for you to ignore it on the N900. :-) |
| 16:15.18 | ali1234 | just because there was a force and an acceleration does not mean you can measure it |
| 16:15.22 | dotblank | gabrbedd, maybe it would affect it by 0.01 m/s^s |
| 16:15.35 | thiago | ali1234: I didn't say you had to measure it |
| 16:15.41 | thiago | ali1234: but the point is that you can see its effects |
| 16:15.54 | ali1234 | you can see it's effects sure |
| 16:15.59 | thiago | that's what I am saying |
| 16:16.11 | thiago | if you're in a frame of reference subjected to acceleration, you can see its effects |
| 16:16.23 | thiago | and yes, you can measure the net acceleration |
| 16:16.27 | ali1234 | so how are you going to build an accelerometer that measures "real" acceleration? |
| 16:16.33 | dotblank | thiago, not acceleration but the affect of inertia |
| 16:17.02 | dotblank | thiago, relative to the train you did not accelerate when the train accelerated |
| 16:17.09 | thiago | hence, going back to the earlier discussion: acceleration is not relative in classical physics |
| 16:17.11 | dotblank | but you still felt inertia |
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| 16:17.24 | gabrbedd | dotblank: Centripetal accel is about 3.39 cm/s^2... which is about 0.35% the size of earth's gravitational acceleration. http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=186 |
| 16:17.26 | thiago | dotblank: actually, you felt the force that pushed you |
| 16:18.08 | thiago | dotblank: are you sitting down? |
| 16:18.10 | dotblank | thiago, and.. if you didn't move you didn't accelerate |
| 16:18.22 | dotblank | *relative to the train |
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| 16:18.31 | thiago | dotblank: that's the point! |
| 16:18.33 | CosmoHill | so if the channel's dead I just need to ask a physics question? |
| 16:18.35 | thiago | dotblank: you felt a force, didn't you? |
| 16:18.43 | thiago | CosmoHill: you can ask meego questions in #physics :-) |
| 16:18.52 | CosmoHill | yay |
| 16:18.55 | dotblank | thiago, right but inertia isn't bound by frame of referance |
| 16:19.02 | thiago | dotblank: inertia isn't |
| 16:19.04 | dotblank | but acceleration is |
| 16:19.34 | thiago | dotblank: the point is that if you're in the train, standing with your back to the bulkhead and the train accelerates forward, you do feel a force |
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| 16:19.39 | thiago | you're pushed |
| 16:19.50 | thiago | but you didn't move relative to the train, right? |
| 16:20.02 | dotblank | so im sitting on train the train goes faster my rate or change of my rate of change of position is not relative? |
| 16:20.14 | thiago | sorry? |
| 16:20.21 | dotblank | thiago, I guess the point is inertia isn't relative |
| 16:20.28 | thiago | inertia isn't relative |
| 16:20.33 | dotblank | right |
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| 16:20.42 | *** join/#meego neopsis (~neopsis@ip72-200-113-86.tc.ph.cox.net) |
| 16:20.43 | dotblank | but my acceleration is relative to the train |
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| 16:21.02 | thiago | if you start walking in the train, you had acceleration relative to the train |
| 16:21.12 | dotblank | if I don't move when the train accelerates then my accel realtive to the train is still zero |
| 16:21.21 | thiago | correct |
| 16:21.24 | thiago | but you felt the acceleration, right? |
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| 16:21.29 | dotblank | regardless of inertia |
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| 16:21.58 | thiago | did you feel the acceleration? |
| 16:22.09 | dotblank | thiago, more accurately you feel inertia not acceleration |
| 16:22.20 | ali1234 | what you felt was the *proper* acceleration |
| 16:22.30 | thiago | you can't feel inertia. You felt that your body resisted to the acceleration. |
| 16:22.34 | thiago | anyway, you felt something |
| 16:22.45 | dotblank | acceleration HAS to be relative |
| 16:22.48 | thiago | doesn't matter what we call it, you felt something. |
| 16:23.05 | gabrbedd | dotblank: Why does it HAVE to be relative? |
| 16:23.09 | jacekowski | you assume that he can feel and he's not dead |
| 16:23.15 | thiago | we know that acceleration equates to change in velocity |
| 16:23.27 | thiago | but you didn't change position, so your velocity (relative to the train) is zero |
| 16:23.31 | thiago | was zero, continues to be zero |
| 16:23.34 | dotblank | right but velocity is relative |
| 16:23.35 | thiago | how do you explain that? |
| 16:23.43 | jacekowski | because it's relative |
| 16:23.47 | jacekowski | everything is relative |
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| 16:23.57 | thiago | jacekowski: acceleration and the speed of light aren't |
| 16:24.39 | thiago | so we go back to what I said: you *know* the train accelerated |
| 16:24.50 | thiago | that means you don't need an external reference to know that it accelerated |
| 16:24.59 | thiago | therefore, acceleration isn't relative to an external reference |
| 16:25.16 | ali1234 | no |
| 16:25.19 | jacekowski | or earth stopped |
| 16:25.41 | ali1234 | how do you tell the difference between constant acceleration of the train, and the train carriage standing on end? |
| 16:25.48 | slonopotamus | first thought he joined #physics |
| 16:26.05 | thiago | ali1234: you don't, but that's not the point |
| 16:26.12 | thiago | ali1234: you still feel the acceleration |
| 16:26.12 | ali1234 | thiago: it's entirely the point |
| 16:26.33 | ali1234 | you can't separate out the forces to remove reaction due to gravity |
| 16:26.38 | CosmoHill | turns out people who love meego also love physics |
| 16:26.48 | thiago | ali1234: you're back at the accelerometer? |
| 16:26.57 | ali1234 | so you can't measure the "everything else" component, and therefore you can't measure gravity |
| 16:26.59 | thiago | was talking about "acceleration is relative" part |
| 16:27.14 | jacekowski | ali1234: gravity == force |
| 16:27.25 | ali1234 | yes |
| 16:27.26 | jacekowski | and you can measure it |
| 16:27.33 | CosmoHill | the dark side = force |
| 16:27.36 | ali1234 | you can measure it *under controlled conditions* |
| 16:27.37 | thiago | lol |
| 16:27.56 | gabrbedd | CosmoHill: Don't give in to hate! |
| 16:28.17 | CosmoHill | it takes so much effort to hold a grudge |
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| 16:28.52 | thiago | ali1234: ok, on the accelerometer: my spring+load accelerometer would find that there is a force in one direction |
| 16:29.04 | thiago | ali1234: and it can't tell if it is the train accelerating or standing on end |
| 16:29.25 | dotblank | but back to the original point and from empirical evidance from my n900 the sensor shows zero force in free fall and a reaction force opposing gravity at rest |
| 16:29.46 | ali1234 | dotblank: cos it is using the "spring+load system" with tiny MEMS springs |
| 16:30.05 | gabrbedd | dotblank: What happens if you turn the N900 on its side? |
| 16:30.19 | dotblank | gabrbedd, samething just along a different axis |
| 16:30.46 | *** join/#meego mitsutaka (~mitsutaka@p1227-ipbf3907marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) |
| 16:30.48 | thiago | anyway, there must be a way of calibrating the system so that it can compensate for that |
| 16:30.49 | dotblank | gabrbedd, but its much harder to read |
| 16:31.04 | thiago | the device isn't accelerating, so the accelerometer shouldn't be giving you an acceleration on one direction |
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| 16:31.19 | thiago | I'm not saying that the device that is on the N900 can do it |
| 16:31.23 | gabrbedd | So, it's like ali1234 says... they have a spring or gyro actually measuring the force of gravity... and compensating the accelerometer's readout through software. |
| 16:31.31 | thiago | I'm saying that other types of accelerometers can do it, because these exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system |
| 16:31.31 | jacekowski | thiago: acceleration == force |
| 16:31.38 | jacekowski | thiago: and there is downwards force |
| 16:31.46 | jacekowski | thiago: always |
| 16:31.46 | thiago | jacekowski: there's also an upwards force of the desk |
| 16:31.54 | ali1234 | no, there is no "compensating" involved |
| 16:32.11 | thiago | jacekowski: and the accelerometer isn't measuring that, yet the device *is* subject to it |
| 16:32.27 | gabrbedd | ali1234: Ok. An accelerometer reporting non-zero when the device is stationary is broken. |
| 16:32.32 | ali1234 | the upwards force of the desk is what it is measuring |
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| 16:32.48 | thiago | ali1234: that's just a change of sign |
| 16:33.00 | thiago | the point is that the accelerometer reports a non-zero acceleration, right? |
| 16:33.03 | ali1234 | with a spring balance you don['t measure gravity, you measure the force of your hand holding it against gravity |
| 16:33.08 | thiago | yet empirical evidence says it's not accelerating |
| 16:33.09 | dotblank | my accelerometer must be broken then |
| 16:33.26 | thiago | ali1234: you don't need a spring for that :-) |
| 16:33.28 | ali1234 | if you let go of the top the spring returns to rest length, even though it is still under the force of gravity |
| 16:33.41 | ali1234 | gravity didn't go away |
| 16:33.45 | dotblank | im reading -0.93 gs on the z axis on my desk right now |
| 16:34.17 | gabrbedd | dotblank: I was drawing an absurd conclusion based on "there is no 'compensating' involved" |
| 16:34.18 | ali1234 | gravity is the only thing it *doesn't* measure |
| 16:34.31 | gabrbedd | dotblank: Obviously something is fiddling with the accelerometer's reading. |
| 16:34.57 | dotblank | gabrbedd, how its seems very raw and not manipulative to me |
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| 16:35.59 | gabrbedd | acceleration = (d/dt)(mv). If m is constant, and v is constant... then acceleration is zero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration |
| 16:36.27 | gabrbedd | So an acceleratometer that reports non-zero when velocity is constant (e.g. 0) has been "tampered with" |
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| 16:37.11 | dotblank | so its more measuring force |
| 16:37.29 | ali1234 | it's measuring proper acceleration aka g-force |
| 16:38.06 | thiago | "An accelerometer at rest relative to the Earth's surface will indicate approximately 1 g upwards, because any point on the Earth's surface is accelerating upwards relative to the local inertial frame (the frame of a freely falling object near the surface)." |
| 16:38.11 | thiago | - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerometer |
| 16:38.47 | thiago | "The reason for the appearance of a gravitational offset is Einstein's equivalence principle,[2] which states that the effects of gravity on an object are indistinguishable from acceleration. " |
| 16:38.56 | gabrbedd | doh! that formula was hasty... accleration is dv/dt. |
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| 16:41.00 | anndy | hi everyone |
| 16:41.04 | amjad | hi anndy |
| 16:41.10 | thiago | there, I'm convinced that an accelerometer will read 1g |
| 16:41.30 | ali1234 | (at rest, on earth) :) |
| 16:41.36 | thiago | yes |
| 16:42.20 | anndy | i have download the headset image and setup the environment on my ubuntu 1.04 box as per the instruction given on the wiki page |
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| 16:42.34 | ali1234 | if your accelerometer is reading 0 it might be miscalibrated... if you turn it upside down does it read 2? |
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| 16:42.57 | thiago | ali1234: I'm probably not reading it right |
| 16:43.01 | anndy | but finally when i run the emulator it is showing a blank screen |
| 16:43.19 | ali1234 | i have heard of the accelerometer chips randomly recalibrating themselves |
| 16:44.16 | gabrbedd | thiago: Yeah... I'm not sure that article is correct when it says, "An accelerometer at rest relative to the Earth's surface will indicate approximately 1 g upwards, because any point on the Earth's surface is accelerating upwards relative to the local inertial frame (the frame of a freely falling object near the surface)." |
| 16:44.19 | anndy | not able to understand which step i am missing which is causing this problem |
| 16:44.19 | CosmoHill | well the two newies members have been banned |
| 16:44.24 | thiago | ali1234: it reads +/- 1000 on the axis |
| 16:44.33 | thiago | gabrbedd: that passage is weird |
| 16:44.41 | CosmoHill | (from KPC) |
| 16:44.51 | thiago | gabrbedd: I accept that the accelerometer measures it |
| 16:45.12 | ali1234 | that passage is correct |
| 16:45.44 | gabrbedd | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimeter |
| 16:46.19 | *** part/#meego manju (~manju@nat/nokia/x-aslypabrtardqodl) |
| 16:46.31 | ali1234 | thiago: it reads milli gs (at least n900 one does) |
| 16:46.41 | thiago | ali1234: yep |
| 16:47.08 | thiago | ali1234: my complaint is that the accelerometer is reading an acceleration, yet I'm seeing that my device is at rest |
| 16:47.25 | ali1234 | *proper* acceleration |
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| 16:47.36 | thiago | if a=dv/dt, and a != 0, then why isn't v changing? |
| 16:47.53 | vgrade | has a flash back to A-level Physics while backreading |
| 16:47.58 | ali1234 | because *proper* acceleration isn't the same thing as a in that equation |
| 16:48.17 | thiago | understood |
| 16:48.35 | ali1234 | just like "g-force" isn't the same thing as gravity :) |
| 16:49.24 | gabrbedd | I think this may be what's happening, from the "Accelerometer" article: Modern accelerometers are often small micro electro-mechanical systems (MEMS), and are indeed the simplest MEMS devices possible, consisting of little more than a cantilever beam with a proof mass (also known as seismic mass). Damping results from the residual gas sealed in the device. As long as the Q-factor is not too low, damping does not result in a lower |
| 16:49.24 | gabrbedd | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:49.57 | thiago | gabrbedd: the same article says that an accelerometer needs to be calibrated to be used as an INS |
| 16:50.04 | thiago | knowledge of the local gravity is necessary |
| 16:50.04 | gabrbedd | In this case, the cantilevered beam will be deflected as a result of gravity. |
| 16:50.26 | ali1234 | gravity or acceleration |
| 16:50.30 | ali1234 | you can't tell which it is |
| 16:50.44 | gabrbedd | BTW, cantilever with mass is a spring + mass system. |
| 16:51.38 | gabrbedd | So, it's actually constantly measureing the weights at the ends of the cantilevers... and is translating that to acceleration. |
| 16:51.46 | ali1234 | yes |
| 16:52.08 | *** part/#meego anndy (~anndy@188-223-32-33.zone14.bethere.co.uk) |
| 16:52.10 | thiago | ali1234: no, you can't |
| 16:52.31 | ali1234 | i know, that's what i said :) |
| 16:52.31 | thiago | ali1234: but the phone is also under another force, by the desk |
| 16:52.37 | thiago | and that isn't being measured |
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| 16:52.46 | ali1234 | it is |
| 16:53.05 | ali1234 | the force of the desk is being measured, the for of gravity is not |
| 16:53.29 | thiago | fair enough |
| 16:53.35 | ali1234 | remove desk -> phone free-falls -> accelerometer reads 0 |
| 16:53.38 | thiago | there's still one force not being measured |
| 16:53.44 | gabrbedd | As a mech. eng... I typically don't think of the "cantilevered beam" system as an accelerometer -- but that's being nit-picky. It can be used as one. |
| 16:54.08 | gabrbedd | ali1234: Which is goofy -- because when the phone falls, it ACCELERATES. |
| 16:54.46 | thiago | gabrbedd: yep |
| 16:54.58 | thiago | gabrbedd: what's happening is that the accelerometer measures acceleration in a non-inertial frame of reference |
| 16:55.14 | thiago | in the frame of reference of an object in free-fall (accelerating in local gravity) |
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| 16:55.46 | ali1234 | yes, the proper acceleration is 0, not the acceleration |
| 16:56.01 | ali1234 | you can't measure gravity, only it's effect |
| 16:56.04 | thiago | that's why it measures a fictitious force: an object at rest sees one unbalanced force |
| 16:56.21 | ali1234 | that's why a gravimeter has to be in an extremely controlled environment (like a satellite in space) |
| 16:56.35 | gabrbedd | um... what's the difference between "proper acceleration" and "acceleration" |
| 16:56.41 | ali1234 | there has to be no other acceleration on it for it to work |
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| 16:57.14 | thiago | gabrbedd: from what I can tell, your acceleration relative to your frame of reference |
| 16:57.25 | ali1234 | gabrbedd: proper acceleration is is the acceleration relative to an object in free-fall in local gravity |
| 16:57.56 | thiago | which is a non-inertial frame of reference |
| 16:58.25 | gabrbedd | Holy Crap!! |
| 16:58.31 | gabrbedd | I've been Nerd Sniped!! |
| 16:58.45 | gabrbedd | http://xkcd.com/356/ |
| 16:59.30 | gabrbedd | I still disagree... but I gotta go. :-) |
| 16:59.35 | thiago | lol |
| 16:59.35 | gabrbedd | Y'all have a great day! |
| 17:00.01 | ali1234 | proper acceleration is basically defined as "what an accelerometer measures" :) |
| 17:00.08 | thiago | yep |
| 17:01.04 | CosmoHill | thanks gabrbedd that reminds me that I should read today's comics |
| 17:01.26 | gabrbedd | CosmoHill: Any time! |
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| 17:05.43 | possomfat | anyone on |
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| 17:06.25 | possomfat | try to build custom image for a device and getting an error - using Fedora 12, any know this process? |
| 17:06.46 | dotblank | possomfat, Ive been getting errors too |
| 17:06.53 | dotblank | possomfat, what error? |
| 17:07.18 | possomfat | THis is what I type and the error I'm getting - sudo mic-image-creator --run-mode=0 --cache=mycachedir --format=raw --arch=armv7l --save-kernel --config=meego-codedrop-arm-n900-2010033116.ks Error: failed to create image : URLGrabber error: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/repo/arm/os/repodata/repomd.xml : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/repo/arm/os/repodata/repomd.xml |
| 17:07.44 | dotblank | ah possomfat you need to install urlgrabber |
| 17:07.57 | possomfat | where is it |
| 17:08.06 | dotblank | oh wait nvm |
| 17:08.11 | dotblank | looks like you have it |
| 17:08.19 | dotblank | did you double check the urls |
| 17:08.52 | dotblank | those urls are giving me not found |
| 17:09.01 | possomfat | I just cut and pasted them from the site. The mic-image-creator did the rest, how would I check them? |
| 17:09.26 | dotblank | open it in a web browser |
| 17:09.28 | dotblank | the links |
| 17:10.33 | possomfat | Do you think these are part of the .ks file I'm using or that the site has an error? |
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| 17:11.42 | possomfat | dotblank: any ideas? |
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| 17:16.29 | dotblank | possomfat, the .ks files |
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| 17:36.51 | thiago | finishes reading lots of articles on Wikipedia and regains his respect for physics |
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| 17:39.10 | hhartz | is there a recently updated image of the meego handset distribution? or just the preview? |
| 17:39.20 | thiago | hhartz: repo.meego.com |
| 17:39.32 | hhartz | thiago: thanks :) |
| 17:39.42 | thiago | http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.80/1.0.90.1.20100903.1/handset/images/ |
| 17:40.35 | hhartz | thiago: I guess I should pick the ava dev one if I want to try getting Qt Quick Components to build? |
| 17:40.36 | thiago | the latest "release" is 20100831 though |
| 17:40.42 | hhartz | what is mtf? |
| 17:40.45 | hhartz | http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100903.1/handset/images/ |
| 17:40.51 | thiago | that one is just the daily build |
| 17:41.02 | thiago | the aava one will run on any Core2- or Atom-powered device |
| 17:41.11 | thiago | mtf = meegotouch framework |
| 17:41.17 | hhartz | gotcha |
| 17:41.34 | hhartz | september 3rd |
| 17:41.43 | thiago | yeah, but that's not a release |
| 17:41.47 | thiago | it's a daily build |
| 17:41.53 | thiago | you may want to try the 0831 one to be sure |
| 17:41.59 | hhartz | ok |
| 17:42.07 | thiago | http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.80/1.0.90.0.20100831.1/core/images/meego-core-armv7l-madde-sysroot/ |
| 17:42.15 | thiago | wait, that's handset |
| 17:42.39 | hhartz | oooh, n900 images too |
| 17:42.44 | thiago | yeah |
| 17:42.51 | hhartz | it's handset I want |
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| 17:43.10 | ali1234 | what's the current state on Qt opengl stuff? i want to port my dice simulator to meego now after accelerometer discussion :) |
| 17:43.11 | hhartz | but I assume http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.0.80/1.0.90.0.20100831.1/core/images/meego-core-ia32-madde-sysroot/ for desktops right? |
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| 17:43.41 | thiago | see here for details: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-September/005387.html |
| 17:43.54 | hhartz | ali1234: Qt OpenGL works just fine... it's more giving you convenience in setting up the context etc. should be a matter of stuffing your code in the virtual updateGL call |
| 17:43.54 | thiago | it's a sysroot for madde for building to ia32 |
| 17:44.02 | thiago | it will run on ia32 (Atom, Core2) |
| 17:44.06 | ali1234 | yeah but... gles |
| 17:44.14 | thiago | ali1234: gles works too |
| 17:44.38 | ali1234 | someone mentioned some utility functions that go some way to replacing the missing things in gles 2.0... |
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| 17:44.42 | ali1234 | like matrix ops etc |
| 17:44.59 | thiago | probably me |
| 17:45.10 | thiago | the math functions and enablers are in 4.7 already, right hhartz ? |
| 17:45.21 | thiago | the rest of the 3d code is in a separate module |
| 17:45.24 | hhartz | thiago: yeah |
| 17:45.43 | hhartz | thiago: ali1234: I think there's a post by rhys on labs.qt.nokia.com |
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| 17:47.08 | thiago | hhartz: note that n900 images replace Maemo5 (though you can simply chroot into it and run the app from there) |
| 17:47.23 | ali1234 | i have dual boot :) |
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| 17:47.28 | hhartz | hehe |
| 17:47.29 | thiago | or dual boot, yeah |
| 17:47.35 | ali1234 | i ported u-boot for this purpose... |
| 17:47.42 | thiago | wonders if PR1.3 improves dual-boot support |
| 17:47.46 | ali1234 | don't even need to reflash |
| 17:48.03 | ali1234 | i don;t use multiboot |
| 17:48.08 | thiago | I could try that, but I need at least one reliable phone |
| 17:48.17 | ali1234 | so maemo kernel has no effect on boot speed of other OS |
| 17:48.20 | thiago | can't use devel images on *both* of my phones |
| 17:48.53 | ali1234 | well this dual boot is invisible to maemo :) |
| 17:49.02 | thiago | but is maemo still running? |
| 17:49.05 | ali1234 | no |
| 17:49.07 | CosmoHill | sounds like something I need |
| 17:49.10 | thiago | that's the problem |
| 17:49.16 | thiago | I need my phone to work :) |
| 17:49.23 | ali1234 | yeah i see |
| 17:49.34 | thiago | my other phone is already quite unstable |
| 17:49.51 | CosmoHill | my sony still works |
| 17:49.56 | thiago | love when the touchscreen freezes while I'm in a call, so I have to reboot to hang up |
| 17:50.06 | CosmoHill | sure, there's a k800i size dent in my door frame >.> |
| 17:50.43 | lpotter | thiago: sounds like the Greenphone |
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| 17:51.05 | ali1234 | does Qt wrap enough of GL that the same program can run on a desktop machine with opengl or a handset with gles? |
| 17:51.06 | thiago | lpotter: yeah, but it's a device much more powerful than the greenphone :-) |
| 17:51.21 | thiago | ali1234: if you stick to what's common between GLES and GL, yes |
| 17:51.28 | thiago | ali1234: especially GL2 and GLES2 |
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| 17:51.41 | ali1234 | ok cool, that's what i'll do then |
| 17:51.49 | thiago | depends on what you're asking |
| 17:51.59 | thiago | Qt will do a lot of GL operations for you, like all of the QPainter primitives |
| 17:52.06 | ali1234 | i'm asking if i can develop my app on a PC and then just recompile it for meego |
| 17:52.09 | thiago | those will be desktop GL on desktops, and GLES on embedded |
| 17:52.25 | thiago | if you don't write any GL code, your app will be "cross-GL", yet GL-accelerated |
| 17:52.37 | ali1234 | well i want to draw 3d objects... |
| 17:52.38 | thiago | if you write GL code, then you have to be careful about what you call |
| 17:52.54 | ali1234 | i don't care how... as long as they are 3d and it is fast |
| 17:53.01 | thiago | for Qt 4.8, one thing we're planning on doing is offering a set of functions that wrap either, so you don't have to care |
| 17:53.12 | thiago | they are like what you know from GL, not Qt API |
| 17:53.28 | thiago | but if you want to do 3D, do take a look at the Qt3D project |
| 17:53.29 | ali1234 | well i know both so..... |
| 17:53.34 | thiago | especially qml3d :-) |
| 17:53.37 | ali1234 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CcfG5uxSOw |
| 17:53.42 | ali1234 | i want to port this ^ |
| 17:53.52 | ali1234 | but i want to write it in Qt so it runs anywhere Qt runs |
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| 17:54.09 | thiago | let's see |
| 17:54.35 | thiago | sounds like a job for Qt3D |
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| 17:54.53 | ali1234 | ah i found that post now |
| 17:54.55 | thiago | http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-labs/qt3d |
| 17:54.59 | ali1234 | http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/11/10/qt3d-features-in-qt-46/ |
| 17:55.22 | thiago | that's just the enablers |
| 17:55.49 | ali1234 | it says enablers includes shader stuff... that's about 99% of the annoying difficult code |
| 17:55.49 | thiago | http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt3d-snapshot/index.html this is the library |
| 17:56.16 | ali1234 | QGLCube ... perfect :) |
| 17:56.19 | thiago | see also this: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/11/18/qt3d-brings-qt-style-coding-to-3d/ |
| 17:56.22 | ali1234 | yes, this is exactly what i need |
| 17:56.58 | thiago | you should be able to write the dice entirely in QML + qml3d |
| 17:57.14 | ali1234 | i had planned on adding other-than-cube shaped dice |
| 17:57.20 | ali1234 | and also change the physical engine to bullet |
| 17:57.36 | thiago | I'll let you play with it |
| 17:57.44 | thiago | if you need some help, lpotter can find you the developers to talk to |
| 17:57.56 | thiago | in a couple of hours. lpotter is an early riser. :-) |
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| 17:58.55 | Duckboot | anyone played with multiboot and meego+maemo? |
| 17:59.01 | ali1234 | hmm so if i want to use this to make programs that run on ubuntu, i'll need to build a newer Qt version? i currently have 4.6.2 |
| 17:59.03 | lpotter | blinks |
| 17:59.44 | ali1234 | Duckboot: i have implemented dual boot using u-boot which avoids the whole multiboot mess |
| 18:00.00 | ali1234 | Duckboot: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/maemo/u-boot/ |
| 18:00.31 | Duckboot | ali1234: Well - I want to use 1 boot-program, so I can boot Maemo/Meego/NitDroid |
| 18:01.02 | ali1234 | Duckboot: no reason it can't boot nitdroid too if the developers supply correct kernel and initrd |
| 18:01.03 | CosmoHill | i think it's safe to say that my VM has crashed |
| 18:02.27 | thiago | ali1234: some enablers are in 4.6 |
| 18:02.28 | Duckboot | ali1234: Latest multiboot makes use of the same principles - Initrd and kernel. |
| 18:02.32 | thiago | ali1234: see the 4.6 documentation |
| 18:02.38 | thiago | ali1234: but qml3d requires Qt 4.7 |
| 18:03.14 | Duckboot | ali1234: So - Then I have to research a bit on my own then. |
| 18:03.50 | ali1234 | Duckboot: i tried nitdroid but their kernel doesn't include a mmc driver - it's a module |
| 18:04.02 | Duckboot | But first - Shop a class 6 or 10 MicroSD |
| 18:04.18 | ali1234 | Duckboot: and i couldn't find the initrd with the module... it seems to rely on multiboot to mount rootfs before kexec or someweird stuff like that |
| 18:04.44 | Duckboot | ali1234: Hmm - Kk - Looking into it now |
| 18:04.46 | ali1234 | Duckboot: so i tried to recompile kernel with MMC built it... but it failed to boot still |
| 18:10.04 | Duckboot | ali1234: I think there is some "magic" involved there - "If rootfs is on mmc then load proper modules" |
| 18:12.04 | ali1234 | yes |
| 18:12.19 | ali1234 | unfortunately multiboot is complicated |
| 18:12.28 | ali1234 | i didn't have time to figure it out |
| 18:12.50 | Duckboot | ali1234: Mmm - Time is a severly limited resource. |
| 18:12.50 | ali1234 | it just needs a proper initrd or to have the kernel built with the right drivers built in, then it will work |
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| 18:29.36 | tripzero | where do the connman test scripts get installed? |
| 18:29.42 | vlj | hi |
| 18:29.45 | vlj | lbt ping |
| 18:29.52 | theplic | guys why am i getting this error: /usr/lib/gcc/i586-meego-linux/4.5.0/../../../../include/c++/4.5.0/bits/c++0x_warning.h:31: error: #error This file requires compiler and library support for the upcoming ISO C++ standard, C++0x. This support is currently experimental, and must be enabled with the -std=c++0x or -std=gnu++0x compiler options. |
| 18:30.19 | theplic | im using the meego netbook sdk |
| 18:30.29 | vlj | Stskeeps: ping |
| 18:31.00 | tripzero | theplic, what are you compiling? |
| 18:31.09 | thiago_home | tripzero: what is the "this file was included from" ? |
| 18:31.09 | tripzero | vlj, Stskeeps is probably sleeping |
| 18:31.25 | vlj | ok |
| 18:31.25 | theplic | tripzero: a demo project in qt creator |
| 18:31.33 | thiago_home | I mean theplic |
| 18:31.39 | thiago_home | theplic: what was the #include that triggered that warning? |
| 18:31.42 | vlj | there is nobody that use obs.maemo at the moment ? |
| 18:31.49 | tripzero | vlj, i do |
| 18:31.54 | vlj | ok |
| 18:31.56 | theplic | uhm probably #include <random> ? |
| 18:32.02 | theplic | thats the only thing i added |
| 18:32.10 | vlj | do you know if thee is a Meego : update repository ? |
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| 18:32.30 | vlj | and do you know where I can found an updated meego src.rpm for xorg-xserver ? |
| 18:32.46 | thiago_home | theplic: that looks like a C++0x header |
| 18:32.51 | tripzero | i think there is a meego update repo |
| 18:32.55 | thiago_home | theplic: so you have two choices: enable C++0x, or don't include taht header |
| 18:33.03 | tripzero | idk about the src.rpm for xorg-xserver |
| 18:33.22 | vlj | =( |
| 18:33.29 | tripzero | theplic, QMAKE_CXXFLAGS += --std=c++0x |
| 18:33.29 | theplic | how do i get rand() functions without that header? is there an alternative? |
| 18:33.30 | tripzero | iirc |
| 18:33.39 | thiago_home | theplic: that's not rand() |
| 18:33.43 | tripzero | theplic, qrand()? |
| 18:33.47 | theplic | srand |
| 18:33.47 | thiago_home | ran you get from <cstdlib> |
| 18:33.52 | thiago_home | or use the Qt random functions |
| 18:33.58 | theplic | random also include cstdlib |
| 18:34.33 | thiago_home | but cstdlib doesn't include random |
| 18:34.36 | thiago_home | they are not the same thing |
| 18:34.37 | theplic | can you point me to the qt random function class |
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| 18:34.50 | theplic | i meant random.h includes cstdlib.h |
| 18:34.58 | theplic | so i get those functions as well |
| 18:35.03 | thiago_home | qrand |
| 18:35.15 | thiago_home | http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/qtglobal.html#qrand |
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| 18:37.34 | theplic | thiago_home: thanks. but why is QtGlobal not present in the all classes index? |
| 18:37.44 | thiago_home | because it's not a class |
| 18:38.22 | theplic | oh ok |
| 18:38.59 | tripzero | tis a header |
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| 18:40.32 | theplic | thanks you. the demo works :) |
| 18:40.35 | theplic | -s |
| 18:41.15 | thiago_home | loves how the C++ committee thought it was important to let you choose the random distribution's uniformity and PRNG's algorithm |
| 18:41.33 | thiago_home | but forgot the simple task of "how do I put such a generator in my class" |
| 18:42.18 | theplic | :S |
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| 18:42.35 | vlj | by the way |
| 18:42.41 | theplic | loves how the qt community came in with the help |
| 18:42.43 | theplic | :D |
| 18:42.48 | theplic | well meego/qt anyway |
| 18:42.49 | vlj | when will all c++1x specs be ..."released" ? |
| 18:42.59 | vlj | s/released/finalised |
| 18:42.59 | thiago_home | vlj: they are in final draft now |
| 18:43.07 | thiago_home | done by 2011, released in 2012 |
| 18:43.17 | thiago_home | we're considering turning it on by default in Qt as of 4.8 |
| 18:43.18 | vlj | yup but they were in final draft last year too :p |
| 18:43.23 | vlj | ok |
| 18:43.29 | vlj | you work for qt ? |
| 18:43.37 | thiago_home | yep |
| 18:43.45 | theplic | awesome |
| 18:44.10 | vlj | do you think you will "discard" some qt threads function in favor of c++ standard ones ? |
| 18:44.30 | tripzero | probably not |
| 18:44.41 | tripzero | i mean "i hope to [some diety] not |
| 18:44.42 | tripzero | " |
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| 18:44.59 | vlj | I do prefer c++ standard because, well, it is standard |
| 18:45.19 | thiago_home | vlj: discard? no |
| 18:45.33 | vlj | it is easier to complain about a bad compiler :p |
| 18:45.33 | thiago_home | vlj: but if the std::thread class is useful, we may use it instead of pthread or win32 threads |
| 18:45.35 | tripzero | iirc the proposed thread stuff won't be in 0x |
| 18:45.41 | vlj | ok |
| 18:45.45 | thiago_home | especially win32 threads |
| 18:46.09 | vlj | are those functions inlinable ? |
| 18:46.17 | thiago_home | the Qt API stays. And for the next couple of years, all C++0x functionality will be inline. |
| 18:46.24 | vlj | ok |
| 18:46.28 | thiago_home | meaning that you can mix and match C++0x |
| 18:46.33 | thiago_home | Qt with it, your app without |
| 18:46.38 | thiago_home | Qt without it, your app with it |
| 18:46.39 | vlj | very gooooood new :) |
| 18:47.12 | thiago_home | if there's a compelling reason, like std::thread being far more useful than the Win32 stuff, we may start requiring C++0x to compile Qt |
| 18:47.19 | thiago_home | right now, there is no compelling reason |
| 18:47.24 | vlj | ok |
| 18:47.36 | vlj | and what about container ? |
| 18:47.39 | thiago_home | but still, even if we do that, we won't force you to use it |
| 18:47.43 | thiago_home | STL containers aren't compatible |
| 18:47.47 | vlj | :/ |
| 18:47.52 | thiago_home | Qt containers are there to stay |
| 18:48.09 | vlj | what make them incompatible ? |
| 18:48.29 | thiago_home | STL containers are designed for real-time and low-memory conditions |
| 18:48.38 | thiago_home | you know exactly if and when it may throw and how it reacts to that |
| 18:48.45 | thiago_home | you know exactly when it may allocate memory |
| 18:48.55 | thiago_home | and they follow STL's API |
| 18:49.07 | vlj | well qt container should require low memory conditions if it is designed to run on embedded hardware |
| 18:49.07 | thiago_home | Qt containers are designed for simplicity and never-out-of-memory conditions |
| 18:49.15 | thiago_home | but they are designed for low memory overhead too |
| 18:49.19 | vlj | ok |
| 18:49.27 | thiago_home | they do implicit sharing, which means that a container may suddenly allocate memory |
| 18:49.30 | vlj | and what about QString ? |
| 18:49.33 | thiago_home | including QString |
| 18:49.36 | vlj | :/ |
| 18:50.03 | thiago_home | you can convert from one to the other. But Qt's API will continue to use Qt containers. |
| 18:50.08 | vlj | ok |
| 18:50.17 | thiago_home | and std::string is not a human string. It's simply a byte array. |
| 18:50.22 | thiago_home | std::wstring is a human string. |
| 18:50.45 | vlj | but both are incompatible with qt ones |
| 18:50.55 | vlj | (even if you can convert them) |
| 18:50.56 | thiago_home | QString comes closest to C++0x's std::basic_string<char16_t> |
| 18:51.06 | thiago_home | the data layout is incompatible, sure |
| 18:51.23 | thiago_home | which means that Qt cannot share the data with the STL container (which STL doesn't do anyway) |
| 18:51.26 | CosmoHill | looks at his K800i and then looks at James Bond's |
| 18:51.37 | CosmoHill | why can't sony actually make things like that |
| 18:51.41 | thiago_home | in the specific case of std::string, unless you're on Windows, you also need to perform an encoding conversion |
| 18:52.10 | thiago_home | like I said, QString is closest to std::basic_string<char16_t> |
| 18:52.43 | vlj | yup but as a developper, having a standard API and a framework specifig one for the same thing is...disturbing |
| 18:53.08 | vlj | (it's not qt's fault, every framework comes with their own string implementation) |
| 18:53.12 | thiago_home | vlj: just use QString everywhere then :-) |
| 18:53.37 | thiago_home | the problem with std::string is that it doesn't specify an encoding |
| 18:53.44 | thiago_home | that's why it's a byte array, not a string |
| 18:53.55 | vlj | well, I would if my compiler would automaticaly transform "..." into QString("...") |
| 18:54.06 | thiago_home | C++0x allows that |
| 18:54.21 | vlj | you mean, it allows to overload string type ? |
| 18:54.25 | thiago_home | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C++0x#User-defined_literals |
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| 18:55.02 | vlj | it works with current gcc version ? |
| 18:55.23 | thiago_home | http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html |
| 18:55.29 | thiago_home | Extensible literals No |
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| 18:56.00 | vlj | visual studio ? ;) |
| 18:56.11 | thiago_home | I don't know |
| 18:56.34 | thiago_home | if you find a page with VS2010's C++0x feature list, let me know :-) |
| 18:57.08 | thiago_home | we'll probably overload something like "q", so you can write: "..."q |
| 18:57.10 | vlj | any release date for QT 4..7 final ? :p |
| 18:57.11 | thiago_home | and that's a QString |
| 18:57.18 | thiago_home | 4.7.0 any time now |
| 18:57.22 | vlj | ok |
| 18:57.32 | vlj | and it will work with VS 2010 64 bits ? |
| 18:57.40 | thiago_home | if you apply Microsoft's hotfix, yes |
| 18:58.15 | vlj | you mean, the one available in windows update, or I must search the ms website to find out ? |
| 18:58.25 | thiago_home | no clue |
| 18:58.37 | thiago_home | the one that fixes the horrible bug in release mode |
| 18:58.51 | vlj | I had crashes when running debug with qt 4.7 64bits + qtcreator + msvc 64bits |
| 18:58.58 | thiago_home | if you don't apply this fix, wherever it is, any C++ apps in release mode will crash randomly |
| 18:59.06 | vlj | maybe a wrong combination |
| 18:59.09 | vlj | ok |
| 18:59.32 | thiago_home | they used an SSE aligned-move instruction on an unaligned address |
| 18:59.44 | *** join/#meego panaggio (~panaggio@curitiba.ic.unicamp.br) |
| 18:59.50 | vlj | they = MS or qt ? |
| 19:00.12 | thiago_home | MS |
| 19:00.22 | vlj | ok |
| 19:00.32 | thiago_home | this was the first nasty compiler bug we've found on MSVC |
| 19:00.43 | vlj | there are others ? ;) |
| 19:00.52 | thiago_home | small stuff, usually deviations from the standard |
| 19:01.00 | thiago_home | older versions were worse. They improve. |
| 19:01.11 | vlj | they don't have choice I think |
| 19:01.22 | thiago_home | with GCC we find a couple of compiler bugs per year |
| 19:01.28 | thiago_home | 2 or 3 |
| 19:01.47 | vlj | qt performs better with msvc or mingw ? |
| 19:02.01 | vlj | I always think that msvc is better for any windows compilation |
| 19:02.07 | vlj | but...I may be wrong |
| 19:02.12 | thiago_home | vlj: msvc, definitely |
| 19:02.28 | thiago_home | msvc is the best compiler for windows, and mostly x86 too |
| 19:02.40 | thiago_home | gcc is catching up, but it has a long way to go |
| 19:02.41 | timeless | thiago, did you hear that gcc4.5 broke libffi (a gcc thing)? :) |
| 19:02.47 | vlj | even against icc ? |
| 19:02.52 | thiago_home | icc is good, but I can't prove it's better in real-world applications |
| 19:03.06 | thiago_home | timeless: no, I haven't |
| 19:03.12 | vlj | but it's not worse ...? |
| 19:03.34 | thiago_home | well, I haven't done extensive benchmarking |
| 19:03.39 | vlj | ok |
| 19:03.47 | thiago_home | the one I did try showed icc is about the same as gcc, on Linux |
| 19:03.59 | thiago_home | unless I turn on link-time optimisation, then it performs better |
| 19:04.03 | vlj | but how can msvc be better than gcc ? |
| 19:04.16 | thiago_home | but then it's only useful for final applications, not libraries |
| 19:04.22 | vlj | I mean, 64bits enforce sse2 for instance |
| 19:04.24 | thiago_home | it simply generates better code and better error messages |
| 19:04.42 | vlj | and the heuristic behind gcc and msvc must be close |
| 19:04.51 | thiago_home | I doubt it |
| 19:05.01 | thiago_home | compiler optimisation algorithms are a closely-guarded secret |
| 19:05.04 | thiago_home | probably patented too |
| 19:05.41 | thiago_home | no wonder that ICC isn't open source, even though Intel contributes to gcc |
| 19:06.17 | thiago_home | I remember one case where the same code performed much faster when compiled with MSVC than with GCC |
| 19:06.24 | vlj | but you have more researcher behind gcc than behind msvc or icc |
| 19:06.27 | thiago_home | some RGB manipulation algorithm, can't remember what |
| 19:06.51 | thiago_home | so the engineer took the disassembly of the code generated by MSVC and rewrote it in C++ to match it |
| 19:06.55 | thiago_home | then GCC was as fast |
| 19:07.01 | vlj | hmm |
| 19:07.07 | thiago_home | we don't have much behind ICC |
| 19:07.23 | thiago_home | until MeeGo was announced, we didn't even have a recent version of ICC in our farm |
| 19:08.11 | thiago_home | I think we've always had a little more in GCC, in part because of Mac too |
| 19:08.11 | vlj | I think it is not as used as gcc or msvc |
| 19:08.34 | timeless | thiago, interesting approach to compiler optimization |
| 19:08.36 | thiago_home | but now with Symbian and MeeGo focus, it's definitely more |
| 19:09.34 | vlj | I though qt main platform was gcc (because of kde, things like that) |
| 19:09.41 | thiago_home | you'd think that |
| 19:09.48 | thiago_home | but most of the commercial customers are actually on Windows |
| 19:09.53 | *** join/#meego lizardo (~lizardo@189.2.128.130) |
| 19:10.02 | vlj | ok |
| 19:10.17 | thiago_home | there's just a huge imbalance between commercial customers and total users (which includes open source users) |
| 19:10.29 | thiago_home | you can probably see that as as natural, though |
| 19:10.36 | vlj | yes |
| 19:10.59 | thiago_home | that situation has definitely changed with Nokia, if you count Nokia as a paying customer |
| 19:11.07 | vlj | on the other hand, any users can turn into a commercial customer at some time |
| 19:11.09 | thiago_home | (Nokia did pay 100 million euros, after all :-) |
| 19:11.51 | thiago_home | but I'd say 60% of Nokia isn't MSVC or GCC |
| 19:11.54 | thiago_home | it's actually RVCT |
| 19:12.14 | timeless | that'd the screwy symbian compiler |
| 19:12.21 | thiago_home | no... that's winscw |
| 19:12.22 | vlj | even gcce ? |
| 19:12.29 | Robot101 | but Linaro are paying for GCC improvements now :) |
| 19:12.29 | thiago_home | which is, really, screwy |
| 19:12.35 | thiago_home | RVCT is the ARM compiler |
| 19:12.45 | thiago_home | it's not bad, even though ARM had to make lots of fixes for us |
| 19:13.03 | thiago_home | gcce is bad only because it's old |
| 19:13.24 | thiago_home | but Qt for Symbian, as well as most of the Symbian software itself, is built with RVCT |
| 19:13.36 | vlj | but it is moreless sync with gcc release or...? |
| 19:13.43 | thiago_home | RVCT is like MSVC or ICC, except for ARM |
| 19:13.59 | vlj | rvct is not available for free for hobbyist purpose ;) |
| 19:14.12 | thiago_home | I think it's available for free-as-in-beer |
| 19:14.50 | thiago_home | RVCT is pretty good at generating *small* code, though |
| 19:15.37 | thiago_home | unlike GCC, which sometimes does stupid stuff if you read the assembly output |
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| 19:16.01 | djszapi | is there no x86_64 sdk ? |
| 19:16.15 | thiago_home | djszapi: the 32-bit SDK is enough for you |
| 19:16.34 | djszapi | k then |
| 19:16.59 | vlj | thiago_home: gcc asm output is not the most readable one |
| 19:17.10 | thiago_home | vlj: most asm output isn't readable |
| 19:17.24 | thiago_home | but when you find something like these two instructions, one after the other: |
| 19:17.30 | thiago_home | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:17.35 | thiago_home | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:17.55 | vlj | well it's stupid |
| 19:18.12 | thiago_home | if you can't read ARM assembly: the first executes if the result of the previous comparison was "not equal" |
| 19:18.16 | thiago_home | the second executes if it was equal |
| 19:19.00 | vlj | arm assembly is told to be clearer than x86 one but it looks very close |
| 19:19.14 | thiago_home | some things are clearer, some aren't |
| 19:19.26 | thiago_home | I don't think some of the operands are particularly descriptive |
| 19:19.34 | thiago_home | like rsb |
| 19:20.23 | vlj | dont know this one |
| 19:20.26 | thiago_home | reverse sub |
| 19:20.42 | vlj | that's not better ^^ |
| 19:20.45 | thiago_home | rsb r0, r1, r2 => r0 = r2 - r1 |
| 19:20.47 | vlj | -1/something ? |
| 19:20.50 | thiago_home | instead of r1 - r2 |
| 19:21.08 | vlj | why having 2 instructions if just the order change ? |
| 19:21.14 | possomfat | Need a little guidence - I'm building my first image for the handset on Fedora. I've got it to almost work but I'm error out on the build. Bad Directories. Does anyone know a good .ks file I should use to get a good current build? |
| 19:21.15 | thiago_home | because of the operand2 encoding |
| 19:21.37 | thiago_home | you can write: rsb r0, r1, r2 lsl 2 |
| 19:21.41 | thiago_home | but you can't put the shift on r1 |
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| 19:21.52 | vlj | lsl ? |
| 19:22.04 | vlj | left shift 2? |
| 19:22.05 | thiago_home | logical shift left |
| 19:22.07 | vlj | ok |
| 19:22.25 | vlj | and it does not work if you put it on r1? |
| 19:22.26 | possomfat | Here is the error I'm getting - Error: failed to create image : URLGrabber error: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 : http://repository.maemo.org/meego/2a5e7de0123d9723051f4f6396a9d4c0/builds/trunk/1.0.80.16.20100824.1/nokia-n900-non-oss/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml : http://repository.maemo.org/meego/2a5e7de0123d9723051f4f6396a9d4c0/builds/trunk/1.0.80.16.20100824.1/nokia-n900-non-oss/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml |
| 19:22.36 | thiago_home | e.g.: rsb r0, r1, r2 asr 2 => r0 = r2/2 - r1 |
| 19:22.55 | thiago_home | vlj: you can't put the shifts in the middle operand |
| 19:22.59 | vlj | ok |
| 19:23.03 | thiago_home | only on the third, the "operand2" |
| 19:23.08 | vlj | neither on the first one I think ? |
| 19:23.08 | vlj | ok |
| 19:23.18 | thiago_home | the first one is the destination operand |
| 19:24.06 | thiago_home | like I said, I don't find some of the opcodes particularly readable |
| 19:24.06 | possomfat | Anyone know a good .ks? |
| 19:24.11 | thiago_home | there are worse than rsb |
| 19:24.15 | vlj | well this could mean "do logical shift right after the sub" |
| 19:24.35 | *** join/#meego Xisdibik (~Xisdibik@c-67-164-41-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 19:25.14 | vlj | it would be nice if there was some "nice" arm syntax to convert straight into arm one |
| 19:25.23 | thiago_home | but Intel has of course surpassed it all with the SSE4.2 instruction pcmpestrm |
| 19:25.25 | *** join/#meego toniher (~chatzilla@207.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) |
| 19:25.40 | thiago_home | it takes 4 registers and one immediate bitfield as input |
| 19:25.58 | thiago_home | and it outputs into 4 flags and one (fixed) register |
| 19:26.05 | vlj | for instance r0 moveq r1 |
| 19:26.21 | thiago_home | vlj: the IA-64 assembly makes use of equal signs |
| 19:26.28 | thiago_home | pretty readable for me: mov r1 = r0 |
| 19:26.36 | possomfat | Can anyone point me to a good kickstart file so that I can build a N900 handset image. Thanks |
| 19:26.47 | thiago_home | ld4 r1 = [r2] |
| 19:26.56 | vlj | but the processor that runs it are not the most widespread |
| 19:27.00 | sivu | l4d 2 |
| 19:27.04 | thiago_home | st4 [r2] = r1 |
| 19:27.38 | thiago_home | and then there are some gems like: br.call.sptk.few rp = #function |
| 19:28.26 | thiago_home | "branch-call (that is, save the return link), statically predicted to be taken, and load few lines of cache" |
| 19:28.49 | vlj | sad that it didnt make its way into emt 64 |
| 19:29.56 | vlj | or a static IA 64 to emt 64 convertor |
| 19:31.10 | thiago_home | also the now-useless br.ia instruction, to switch the processor into IA-32 mode |
| 19:32.39 | tripzero | possomfat, http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php |
| 19:32.56 | tripzero | http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Releases/Daily#Where_to_get_kickstart_-_how_to_build_an_image |
| 19:33.10 | possomfat | thanks |
| 19:38.34 | djszapi | I would like to be sure: is the MeeGo development closed by Nokia ? |
| 19:39.02 | djszapi | MY colleague said me today to install debian since it's closed development and Nokia provides only deb packages. |
| 19:39.08 | djszapi | Maemo 6/Harmattan |
| 19:39.44 | *** join/#meego Jaffa (~andrew@Maemo/community/council/Jaffa) |
| 19:40.43 | djszapi | * MeeGo = Harmattan/Maemo_6 |
| 19:41.33 | mord | err, not really |
| 19:41.33 | Jaffa | #jSomeone on a less laggy connection than I can correct that. |
| 19:41.53 | Jaffa | S/#j/djszapi: / |
| 19:42.05 | ali1234 | 1. meego uses rpm not deb |
| 19:42.10 | djszapi | true |
| 19:42.14 | mord | harmattan isn't really meego, it's more ... well, maemo 6 |
| 19:42.16 | djszapi | Maemo6/Harmattan uses deb... |
| 19:42.27 | possomfat | tripzero: Did what you said, got the latest kickstart from codedrop link - Still getting build error - Error: failed to create image : URLGrabber error: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100831.1/core/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100831.1/core/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml |
| 19:42.42 | possomfat | tripzero: Any insights? |
| 19:42.49 | djszapi | I always thought maemo 6 is meego |
| 19:42.49 | *** join/#meego dchaverri26 (~dchaverri@186.4.15.155) |
| 19:43.00 | ali1234 | 2. maemo is pretty far from debian now anyway |
| 19:43.02 | mord | i actually dunno how much of harmattan arch is public knowledge so better not elaborate but it's not meego, that's for sure. |
| 19:43.24 | *** part/#meego vlj (~na@AVelizy-152-1-47-104.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:43.35 | djszapi | ali1234: Harmattan is not... |
| 19:43.57 | possomfat | Why am getting all these URLgrabber errors, do I have something configured wrong?? |
| 19:43.59 | ali1234 | 3. why would installing debian help you with "closed" development? |
| 19:44.24 | djszapi | ali1234: /me sighs |
| 19:44.38 | djszapi | since the source is not available |
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| 19:44.47 | djszapi | and they only provide deb binaries ?! |
| 19:44.57 | ali1234 | deb is a package format |
| 19:45.06 | djszapi | you are rather clever :) |
| 19:45.22 | ali1234 | if you take a random deb from ubuntu and install it on debian... guess what... it doesn't work |
| 19:45.32 | ali1234 | because ubuntu is not debian, despite that they both use debs |
| 19:45.54 | djszapi | the Nokia official recommendation is ubuntu, debian, but if you know that better ... |
| 19:46.13 | ali1234 | the official nokia recommendation of what? |
| 19:46.41 | djszapi | which host to use... |
| 19:46.45 | djszapi | sighs heavily |
| 19:46.51 | matrixx | djszapi: to develop for Maemo 6 you would need maemo 6 rootstrap for scratchbox which is not publicly available |
| 19:47.01 | mord | well, there's a quasi-recommedation in the form of "this is the most thoroughly tested distro" and it's jaunty |
| 19:47.14 | mord | as far as the sdk stuff is concerned |
| 19:47.16 | *** join/#meego afief (~user@bzq-79-177-41-18.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 19:47.22 | ali1234 | they recommend ubuntu because that's what they tested with, not because it uses deb |
| 19:47.24 | djszapi | matrixx: we started working for Nokia |
| 19:47.34 | djszapi | so our staffs can access to Nokia server ;) |
| 19:47.34 | matrixx | djszapi: ok, then it's not a problem :) |
| 19:47.34 | mord | although lenny is also very well tested |
| 19:47.35 | ali1234 | the package system used by the host OS is completely and utterly irrelevant |
| 19:47.39 | djszapi | but the question is different |
| 19:48.09 | mord | it's known that karmic and lucid have probs with the eclipse bits (esbox, pluthon) and possibly scratchbox as well |
| 19:48.15 | djszapi | ali1234: no it is not |
| 19:48.18 | *** join/#meego rescbr_ (~rescbr@201-92-72-198.dsl.telesp.net.br) |
| 19:48.20 | matrixx | I would suggest ubuntu jaunty |
| 19:48.27 | djszapi | just the opposite. |
| 19:48.34 | djszapi | mord++ |
| 19:48.42 | djszapi | I started setting up lenny in chroot. |
| 19:49.20 | djszapi | one thing that I do not understand matrixx |
| 19:49.21 | matrixx | djszapi: better and more specific help you would receive on #maemo @ projects.maemo.org server |
| 19:49.33 | ali1234 | well, believe what you like. the only important thing is what packages the host has installed. it doesn't matter if they came out of a deb or a rpm, they work just the same |
| 19:49.33 | mord | i'm somewhat involved with the developer platform bits atm (switching to other things soon though) and i'd say go jaunty if you want stuff to just work (tm) |
| 19:49.35 | djszapi | is it better to install debian lenny in chroot, or just the scratchbox itself ? |
| 19:50.14 | mord | you'll run into all sorts of probs with karmic as the sb host at least |
| 19:50.20 | djszapi | mord: what's the problem with lenny ? |
| 19:50.32 | mord | no major probs with lenny afaik |
| 19:50.37 | djszapi | matrixx: my colleague has got access, not me yet :P |
| 19:50.43 | djszapi | I am newbie in that project. |
| 19:50.54 | djszapi | mord: I started setting up lenny |
| 19:50.55 | matrixx | djszapi: ok then :) |
| 19:51.06 | mord | djszapi: you should be fine then |
| 19:51.28 | djszapi | mord matrixx I just do not which way is worth to do: 1) Installing lenny in subdirectory on my archlinux / |
| 19:51.32 | djszapi | ? |
| 19:51.39 | djszapi | or just simply install scratchbox on my archlinux ? |
| 19:51.54 | djszapi | since maemo 5 sdk installs some debian handling into the scratchbox. |
| 19:52.28 | djszapi | my colleague wanted me to install debian for my host, but I have been using archlinux for a while, thus I would like to keep it. |
| 19:52.35 | djszapi | at least as a host |
| 19:52.51 | ali1234 | djszapi: scratchbox is like a super-chroot with emulation capabilities |
| 19:53.02 | djszapi | yes. |
| 19:53.15 | ali1234 | as long as your host OS is capable of running scratchbox well enough, it does not matter about anythign else |
| 19:53.18 | djszapi | my next question will be whether xephyr can support 3d accel. |
| 19:53.34 | djszapi | ali1234: it is not true... |
| 19:53.55 | djszapi | we do not use the the downloadable scratchbox at the company. |
| 19:53.59 | djszapi | that we use a bit different. |
| 19:54.14 | mord | djszapi: sometimes things get a bit weird if the host has very recent stuff, so i'd say an up-to-date arch is possibly the worst possible host :) |
| 19:54.21 | djszapi | and projects.maemo.org and other Nokia accesses provide debian binary packages. |
| 19:54.45 | djszapi | mord: there is no obligation to update every day ... |
| 19:54.46 | Stskeeps | uhm, why are people discussing pmo in public? |
| 19:54.59 | matrixx | djszapi: I dunno know that much of arch linux that I could tell |
| 19:55.17 | mord | djszapi: well, running pacman -Syu every day is half the point of having arch, innit though? :) |
| 19:55.24 | djszapi | nop ... |
| 19:55.25 | matrixx | but at least the modified scratchox packages need a debian host |
| 19:55.34 | djszapi | mord: that is why you got troubles. |
| 19:55.49 | djszapi | matrixx: that's what I said. |
| 19:55.53 | matrixx | yep |
| 19:56.01 | djszapi | but not host... |
| 19:56.10 | djszapi | bootstrap + debian install into a subdirectory. |
| 19:56.14 | mord | Stskeeps: no idea. what's the policy on that btw? |
| 19:56.19 | djszapi | but i do not know whether it is needed at all |
| 19:56.34 | djszapi | or just simply scratchbox installation on the archlinux host |
| 19:56.44 | mord | honestly has no idea and thus refrains from discussing it at all |
| 19:56.51 | ali1234 | if you want to use debs provided for a specific host then you should use that host |
| 19:57.06 | djszapi | any related to the matter ? |
| 19:57.20 | ali1234 | the public maemo SDKs provide binary debs that run *inside scratchbox* |
| 19:57.37 | ali1234 | so it is not necessary to use a specific host OS for the public SDK |
| 19:57.43 | ali1234 | i do not know anything about anything else |
| 19:57.47 | possomfat | OK, using the current N900 kickstart file the following repository directories do not exists - Why anyone ? Error: failed to create image : URLGrabber error: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100831.1/core/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/1.0.90.1.20100831.1/core/repos/armv7l/packages//repodata/repomd.xml |
| 19:58.14 | possomfat | Are these repository files broken often?? |
| 19:58.31 | Stskeeps | possomfat: we have a bug where closed repo's didn't get built, and there was also a build id messup on the public repos.. |
| 19:58.36 | Stskeeps | they got changed to 90.0 later |
| 19:59.07 | possomfat | So what is the last build for the N900 that builds? |
| 19:59.35 | djszapi | does xephyr support 3d accelt ? |
| 19:59.40 | Stskeeps | 3 weeks ago, next one will come wednesday provided sanity is OK |
| 19:59.56 | possomfat | do you know the kickstart file name? |
| 20:01.35 | possomfat | This one meego-handset-armv7l-n900-nokia-proprietary-1.0.80.15.20100817.1.ks |
| 20:01.54 | Stskeeps | hrmm.. -may- work, either that one or the one before |
| 20:02.07 | possomfat | K, thanks |
| 20:02.10 | Stskeeps | we had a messup, basically - sorry about that |
| 20:02.49 | possomfat | no worries, just trying to get my first image built so I know what's going on |
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| 20:19.49 | CosmoHill | hahahah |
| 20:20.06 | CosmoHill | my netboot loader is working properly :D |
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| 20:26.45 | thiago_home | why did so many people propose talks for the conference... |
| 20:26.53 | thiago_home | now I have to read each and every one of them... |
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| 20:28.17 | GAN900 | Better than too few. |
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| 20:30.31 | thiago_home | indeed |
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| 20:40.52 | CosmoHill | I've just booted ubuntu off the local hard drive using an PXE boot loader :) |
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| 20:48.55 | TSCHAKeee2 | thiago_home: reminds me of the line from Clerks, "This job would be great if it wasn't for the fucking customers!" |
| 20:51.07 | CosmoHill | any american's in here? |
| 20:51.33 | CosmoHill | is "damn" a strong swear word? (if it is I applogise) |
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| 21:00.25 | GAN900 | CosmoHill, not really, no. |
| 21:00.42 | GAN900 | CosmoHill, depends on the company, of course, but it's pretty tame. |
| 21:02.33 | CosmoHill | thanks |
| 21:02.44 | CosmoHill | I'll tell my friend he's being prudish |
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| 21:06.13 | GAN900 | CosmoHill, but regional differences factor into that one fairly heavily. |
| 21:06.34 | GAN900 | Always remember: the US is a very large and varied place. |
| 21:06.56 | *** join/#meego pcacjr (~pcacjr@unaffiliated/pcacjr) |
| 21:07.00 | odin_ | travelled much have you ? |
| 21:07.53 | CosmoHill | I think you have states bigger than our country |
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| 21:13.53 | TSCHAKeee2 | CosmoHill: Texas is large enough that if you flipped it upside down...the tip would almost reach the middle part of Canada. |
| 21:14.46 | CosmoHill | as if it wasn't backwared enough as it is |
| 21:14.51 | lbt_away | probably the best think you could do to Texas... |
| 21:17.02 | CosmoHill | wonders who we've offended |
| 21:17.30 | thiago_home | TSCHAKeee2: you mean flip it at the north border? |
| 21:17.38 | thiago_home | TSCHAKeee2: not flip it at the mid-section? |
| 21:17.44 | TSCHAKeee2 | yeah |
| 21:17.53 | CosmoHill | not rotate then? |
| 21:17.54 | TSCHAKeee2 | just like folding it in |
| 21:17.59 | CosmoHill | hmm |
| 21:18.01 | CosmoHill | wow |
| 21:18.04 | TSCHAKeee2 | it's huge |
| 21:18.12 | TSCHAKeee2 | Texas is nuts yes... |
| 21:18.16 | TSCHAKeee2 | I was born there |
| 21:18.18 | TSCHAKeee2 | I don't admit that much |
| 21:18.23 | TSCHAKeee2 | I haven't lived there in over a decade |
| 21:18.26 | TSCHAKeee2 | but I can tell you... |
| 21:18.36 | TSCHAKeee2 | Texas has the highest concentration of women who are 10s in the world. |
| 21:18.41 | TSCHAKeee2 | jeebus. |
| 21:18.50 | TSCHAKeee2 | California is close second. |
| 21:18.52 | thiago_home | tens? |
| 21:18.56 | CosmoHill | hot? |
| 21:19.03 | TSCHAKeee2 | hot++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ |
| 21:19.08 | thiago_home | read as "teens" but it doesn't make sense either |
| 21:19.21 | TSCHAKeee2 | hotness scale from 1 to 10 |
| 21:19.32 | CosmoHill | my friend rated me 7.5 :( |
| 21:20.18 | CosmoHill | is a guy incase you're wondering |
| 21:20.41 | TSCHAKeee2 | oh no worries |
| 21:20.45 | TSCHAKeee2 | I like guys too |
| 21:20.47 | TSCHAKeee2 | ;) |
| 21:20.51 | CosmoHill | ^.^ |
| 21:20.54 | TSCHAKeee2 | heheheh |
| 21:21.11 | TSCHAKeee2 | yes, I am bi.. in other words... I confuse the shit out of EVERYONE |
| 21:21.16 | TSCHAKeee2 | :P |
| 21:21.18 | CosmoHill | one day I'll talk on here without the logbots being in the back of my head |
| 21:21.26 | odin_ | and yourself I bet |
| 21:21.31 | TSCHAKeee2 | no, not really |
| 21:21.36 | TSCHAKeee2 | I am quite secure with what i am. |
| 21:21.58 | TSCHAKeee2 | it just severely limits the dating scene a LOT |
| 21:22.06 | TSCHAKeee2 | you would think it would double things |
| 21:22.11 | TSCHAKeee2 | it doesn't. |
| 21:22.33 | TSCHAKeee2 | because you send out both sets of vibes |
| 21:22.58 | CosmoHill | "damn she's hot, her boyfriend ain't half bad either" |
| 21:22.59 | TSCHAKeee2 | most women think i'm gay |
| 21:23.08 | TSCHAKeee2 | most gay men think i'm not |
| 21:23.56 | CosmoHill | what time is it for you btw? |
| 21:24.18 | odin_ | bed I think... been a long day |
| 21:24.52 | TSCHAKeee2 | 17:24 EST |
| 21:24.52 | CosmoHill | hmm |
| 21:24.57 | CosmoHill | so it's not weird o'clock |
| 21:25.10 | CosmoHill | the time of day where you stop giving a shit about what you say and who;s listening |
| 21:25.38 | CosmoHill | goes back to writing up grub stuff quickly |
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| 21:42.08 | CosmoHill | okay so I have a dual boot computer, windows and ubuntu |
| 21:42.38 | CosmoHill | windows partition is active so it can't boot ubuntu |
| 21:43.08 | CosmoHill | I can PXE boot Grub2 on that computer and it gives me the option of windows, ubuntu or memtest :) |
| 21:43.25 | CosmoHill | now I just need to figure out how to change which one is booted so it's headless |
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| 21:49.18 | CosmoHill | TSCHAKeee2: fancy a laugh |
| 21:49.26 | TSCHAKeee2 | always |
| 21:49.40 | CosmoHill | just noticed that my pencel has a name on it |
| 21:49.45 | CosmoHill | that name is "katie" |
| 21:50.07 | *** mode/#meego [+o sofar] by ChanServ |
| 21:50.14 | *** mode/#meego [-o sofar] by ChanServ |
| 21:50.17 | CosmoHill | hides |
| 21:50.24 | sofar | giggles |
| 21:50.34 | CosmoHill | test? |
| 21:50.50 | sofar | messing with you, sorry |
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| 21:59.13 | CosmoHill | I swear I have 3 different spellings of Ubuntu on this page |
| 21:59.21 | CosmoHill | it's two sentances >.< |
| 21:59.33 | CosmoHill | sofar: recently promoted? |
| 21:59.48 | sofar | yeah, after the incident this week |
| 22:00.08 | CosmoHill | ? |
| 22:00.15 | sofar | since I'm one of the few Intel devs always on, and have the irc op experience, I figured I'd volunteer |
| 22:00.43 | sofar | there was just someone spamming nonsense in french and linking to other irc servers |
| 22:00.50 | CosmoHill | ah |
| 22:01.17 | CosmoHill | I'll vollentee if you need more people |
| 22:01.23 | sofar | I'm already an op for #xfce and a few other channels, so no biggie |
| 22:02.09 | CosmoHill | i seem to slowly take over the places I go online :/ |
| 22:02.22 | *** join/#meego leandroal (~leandro@189.71.46.230) |
| 22:02.58 | CosmoHill | I've had a busy night on the KPC forums, banned 3 people within about an hour |
| 22:02.59 | *** join/#meego Tuco_maria (~Tuco_mari@187.105.186.251) |
| 22:03.37 | Tuco_maria | Hey, is the telephone stack already implemented in meego for the n900? |
| 22:03.44 | CosmoHill | no |
| 22:04.25 | Tuco_maria | ok, maybe it will be until october |
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| 22:08.14 | CosmoHill | it's taken me an hour to get this far with grub |
| 22:08.18 | CosmoHill | that's how focused I am |
| 22:08.23 | sofar | o_O |
| 22:08.26 | sofar | lol |
| 22:08.28 | sofar | grub |
| 22:08.36 | CosmoHill | grub2 |
| 22:08.37 | sofar | setup (hd0,0) |
| 22:08.42 | sofar | oh grub2 |
| 22:08.46 | sofar | is fail ;) |
| 22:08.53 | CosmoHill | sofar: I'm writing up what I've done |
| 22:09.05 | CosmoHill | I write down anything I do with my cluster |
| 22:13.03 | CosmoHill | done :) |
| 22:13.45 | *** join/#meego SWFu (~SWFu@unaffiliated/swfu) |
| 22:14.51 | CosmoHill | two pages on configuring grub.cfg for PXE |
| 22:17.20 | *** join/#meego johnx (~john@c-76-104-225-147.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 22:29.41 | CosmoHill | I've been told (indirectly) that I have until friday to move my desk |
| 22:30.56 | CosmoHill | where do I move my desk to? buggered if I know |
| 22:32.24 | johnx | I've got a spot in the corner of my living room if you want |
| 22:32.27 | johnx | how big is the desk? |
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| 22:33.27 | CosmoHill | does it have room for 22 computers? |
| 22:33.57 | CosmoHill | http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/cc/desk2.jpg |
| 22:34.57 | gabrbedd | CosmoHill: sweet! |
| 22:35.08 | CosmoHill | ego++ |
| 22:35.25 | jacekowski | i barely manage 2 PCs + server |
| 22:35.30 | jacekowski | to keep everything synced |
| 22:35.34 | gabrbedd | Might have room in my house... but, um... it's a long commute. |
| 22:36.01 | CosmoHill | noticed the computers in the background? :) |
| 22:37.40 | gabrbedd | Yeah, looks like a university lab. |
| 22:37.53 | CosmoHill | correct |
| 22:39.00 | jacekowski | still, how people manage to work on more than 2 computers |
| 22:39.13 | jacekowski | i need everything in one place |
| 22:39.25 | CosmoHill | jacekowski: laptop is for personal stuff / interweb |
| 22:39.38 | gabrbedd | ssh rulez! |
| 22:39.41 | jacekowski | because copying stuff is just pita |
| 22:39.48 | CosmoHill | L2R: node, windows, linux |
| 22:40.14 | jacekowski | well, i do pretty much same stuff for fun and for work |
| 22:40.27 | jacekowski | so i've got same software on my work laptop and home laptop |
| 22:40.54 | jacekowski | + sometimes i do home stuff at work and work stuff at home |
| 22:41.15 | CosmoHill | I have a windows laptop for work and stuff |
| 22:41.37 | CosmoHill | mac for everything else |
| 22:41.40 | CosmoHill | + work |
| 22:41.44 | CosmoHill | and by work, i mean uni stuff |
| 22:42.16 | johnx | CosmoHill, actually, I'll just clear out the living room. Bring your stuff and get setup :) |
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| 22:42.28 | johnx | you'll share though, right? :D |
| 22:42.33 | CosmoHill | I had a desk in the back of my car today |
| 22:42.37 | CosmoHill | and out the back too |
| 22:42.44 | CosmoHill | scratched my paint :( |
| 22:43.17 | johnx | ahaha...I'd be more worried about scratching my desk with my car than scratching my car with my desk :) |
| 22:43.37 | CosmoHill | next time I need to put a jumper under there |
| 22:43.50 | johnx | ah, and how to handle more than two computers at once? central file server + firefox sync + synergy |
| 22:44.14 | johnx | lives in a web browser and a terminal |
| 22:44.29 | CosmoHill | the computers are pretty blank |
| 22:45.09 | CosmoHill | I mean they have little personal files and stuff on there |
| 22:45.17 | CosmoHill | lots of configuration cluster stuff |
| 22:45.58 | CosmoHill | http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/cc/computer-corner.jpg |
| 22:46.06 | CosmoHill | you can see the old cluster in the corner |
| 22:47.10 | ScottishDuck | white boxes |
| 22:47.14 | CosmoHill | yes |
| 22:47.20 | ScottishDuck | that just screams "90s" |
| 22:47.20 | CosmoHill | not the ones on the floor |
| 22:47.23 | ljp | looks like a computer graveyard |
| 22:47.28 | CosmoHill | yes |
| 22:47.42 | johnx | looks a bit newer than the case I'm going to use for my next build ... |
| 22:47.48 | CosmoHill | thanks to our awesome planning, the two people that turned up to the open day saw that |
| 22:48.46 | CosmoHill | that cluster is P4 1.4Ghz, 512MB and that monitor is damn heavy |
| 22:49.15 | CosmoHill | brought the monitor over to the cluster and thought "gosh you're taller than you look" |
| 22:50.03 | johnx | used to have an 21" HP UNIX workstation monitor from '89 |
| 22:50.27 | johnx | doesn't miss CRTs even a little bit |
| 22:50.31 | CosmoHill | I'm 21 from 1989 |
| 22:50.37 | CosmoHill | does that count? |
| 22:50.53 | johnx | I bet you weigh more than the monitor did, but probably only by a little |
| 22:51.04 | CosmoHill | probably |
| 22:51.05 | CosmoHill | how much? |
| 22:51.23 | johnx | somewhere between 100 and 120lbs |
| 22:51.28 | CosmoHill | eep |
| 22:51.38 | ScottishDuck | That cluster probably only has a fraction of the power of my current pc :/ |
| 22:51.52 | ScottishDuck | It's easy to forget moores law is still in effect |
| 22:51.56 | CosmoHill | jonnx I'm 132 lbs |
| 22:52.08 | ScottishDuck | 120lbs monitor |
| 22:52.08 | ScottishDuck | wat |
| 22:52.17 | CosmoHill | ScottishDuck: hold on, I have the power of that cluster written down |
| 22:52.27 | possomfat | anyone, trying to run test QT app on n900 device, cant figure out what hostname is for device? Does anyone know how to figure this out? |
| 22:53.11 | johnx | possomfat, run 'hostname' on the device? |
| 22:53.20 | possomfat | k |
| 22:54.08 | possomfat | how, can't get a terminal, no prompt when i go into xterm on the device? |
| 22:54.45 | CosmoHill | my cluster will be an estimated 1.5Kw |
| 22:55.45 | johnx | ScottishDuck, let me look up the specs on the monitor. I'm pretty sure it was above 100lbs, but 120lbs would be the high end of that scale |
| 22:56.22 | possomfat | how do i ssh into it? I'm new to this:) what is the IP of the device connected to the USB? |
| 22:57.18 | ScottishDuck | If you folks are ~130lbs weight you must be pretty short :/ |
| 22:59.01 | possomfat | I'm 240lbs and need help:) Maybe this will get me some luv :) |
| 22:59.33 | ScottishDuck | I'm 200lbs but average weight |
| 22:59.38 | CosmoHill | is about 6ft |
| 22:59.43 | ScottishDuck | (6' 4") |
| 22:59.50 | johnx | possomfat, what is the IP of the computer's usb interface right now (ifconfig or ipconfig on windows) |
| 23:00.22 | ScottishDuck | CosmoHill: that would make you underweight :/ |
| 23:00.23 | johnx | CosmoHill, you're 6" and 132 *lbs* O_o; |
| 23:00.28 | possomfat | [mark@dell-e1505 my-N900-Image]$ ifconfig eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:15:C5:C9:CF:51 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) Interrupt:17 lo Link encap:Local Loopback |
| 23:01.20 | johnx | possomfat, errr, I don't think the usb iface is called eth0 |
| 23:01.26 | johnx | I think it's like usb0 or somethijg |
| 23:01.55 | possomfat | usb0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 0E:7B:3F:52:20:B0 inet6 addr: fe80::c7b:3fff:fe52:20b0/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1494 Metric:1 RX packets:24 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:10 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:3344 (3.2 KiB) TX bytes:1896 (1.8 KiB) |
| 23:02.21 | possomfat | sorry I don't see the IP address for the usb device |
| 23:02.24 | Tuco_maria | nonsense! |
| 23:02.58 | possomfat | what am i missing? |
| 23:04.07 | possomfat | johnx, is there someother device mounted on top of the usb device or something? |
| 23:05.05 | johnx | uhm, what HOWTO are you following? |
| 23:05.44 | johnx | pretty much if the N900 is connected in mass storage mode, it can't do networking |
| 23:05.53 | johnx | can't do USB networking that is |
| 23:06.10 | possomfat | was trying this one- http://wiki.meego.com/Hello_World_-_MeeGo_x86_development_on_Linux |
| 23:07.25 | possomfat | I've built a meego image and put in on the N900, it is running. Now I'm just trying to put a test QT app on the device? |
| 23:07.52 | *** join/#meego pcacjr__ (~pcacjr@187.78.145.32) |
| 23:08.35 | possomfat | johnx, any advice |
| 23:08.47 | johnx | ah, right, but what guide did you follow to connect to your N900 over usb? |
| 23:09.32 | *** join/#meego drizztbsd (~quassel@dynamic-adsl-78-12-189-79.clienti.tiscali.it) |
| 23:09.55 | possomfat | johnx, this one - http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC |
| 23:10.18 | possomfat | The rootfs piece loads to the device via usb |
| 23:11.39 | johnx | yes...but *after* that, once you're booted into meego, you need to setup usb networking |
| 23:11.42 | possomfat | johnx, do you know if the wifi works on the cuurent build? maybe i could try that? thoughts? |
| 23:12.00 | CosmoHill | bans 4th person today |
| 23:12.16 | johnx | dunno much about meego on the N900, I'm running maemo on the N900 and getting meego onto something else |
| 23:12.32 | possomfat | I didn't start usb networking, is their a howto on that? |
| 23:13.31 | johnx | well, I don't know of one. I thought you must have followed one ... |
| 23:13.40 | ljp | it should automatically start up usbnetworking. but http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5031 |
| 23:16.34 | *** join/#meego dchaverri26 (~dchaverri@201.196.107.110) |
| 23:18.35 | *** join/#meego drizztbsd_ (~quassel@dynamic-adsl-94-36-192-170.clienti.tiscali.it) |
| 23:18.44 | possomfat | any ideas on the wifi method, how can i tell what ip address was assigned to the meego-n900 without xterm or much else working? |
| 23:19.27 | possomfat | It does say that i'm connected to my wifi network on the n900 |
| 23:21.23 | possomfat | plz don't make me sniff my wifi network, this cant be that hard:) |
| 23:21.43 | CosmoHill | if it smells like burnt plastic, you need a new router |
| 23:22.52 | possomfat | :)) |
| 23:23.10 | ScottishDuck | You never forget the unmistakable smell of burning slilicon |
| 23:23.20 | ScottishDuck | it strikes fear into the heart of all tech enthusiasts |
| 23:24.02 | gabrbedd | remembers the smell of his speak-n-spell... |
| 23:25.44 | possomfat | my god, i just looked and under the connectivity->wifi-> there is a magicall advanced button that actually has network details! who would have guessed:0 |
| 23:26.04 | ScottishDuck | meego is leading the curve |
| 23:26.17 | possomfat | hehe |
| 23:28.01 | CosmoHill | now they're talking about physics in #lfs-support >.< |
| 23:33.14 | gabrbedd | What is the average air speed velocity of an unladen N900? |
| 23:33.27 | sofar | jailbroken or not? |
| 23:33.30 | johnx | gabrbedd, there's an app for that :D |
| 23:33.37 | asj | gabrbedd: I don't know, but n900fly can tell you ;) |
| 23:33.52 | gabrbedd | I... I don't know... AAaaaaaaaa.... |
| 23:37.16 | CosmoHill | gabrbedd: african or eurpean? |
| 23:50.43 | *** join/#meego niala (~koupsaa@2a01:e35:1386:4120:222:43ff:fe32:b871) |
