IRC log for #meego on 20100505

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00:33.51Termanagood morning
00:35.54tripzerohi
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01:17.04TSCHAKbummed that none of the UX code is checked in
01:20.43sandsmarkI can only get a-z working when typing in the qemu image
01:20.51sandsmark(no uppercase, numbers, or -'s)
01:21.30TermanaTSCHAK, I think it will be checked in with the 1.0 release. Don't quote me on that though, cause I might be wrong.
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06:20.58antonfI meet belowing Error while build meego iso from trunk repo:
06:21.01antonfError: failed to create image : Failed to build transaction : system-config-date-1.9.36-20.1.noarch requires gnome-python2-canvas
06:22.17antonfI checked repo.meego.com, there is no gnome-python2-canvas package.
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08:27.59Stskeepsmorning slaine
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08:32.49slainemorning Stskeeps
08:32.57slainerefreshed I hope
08:34.21Stskeepsyeah, a bit better
08:39.13slaineOh, wednesday already
08:39.18slaineTSG meeting tonight
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08:52.44StskeepsWAHa_06x36: jkirdner is also looking at beagle/meego i think - you two should coordinate
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09:02.35slaineDid you get any further with your watchdog problem WAHa_06x36
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09:11.39lbto/
09:11.45lbtslaine: pin
09:11.46lbtg
09:11.57slaineack
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09:12.28lbtwe're making progress on the RWG front as per emails
09:12.43lbtI'm building a system that will be a community OBS
09:12.50slaineawesome
09:12.54lbt:)
09:12.59slaineis this all happening on the community list ?
09:13.21lbtit will be on -dev AFAI
09:13.23lbtK
09:13.37slainegrand, that's the only one I'm signed up to at the moment
09:13.57lbtalthough quim seems to have re-defined -dev.... which was a surprise
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09:14.17slaineindeed, he seems to have turned into a moderator of late
09:14.30lbtremind me ... were we discussing rpm 'training' ?
09:14.32pupniklooks like my registration problem only occurred with yahoo mail
09:14.34lbtages ago?
09:14.36Stskeepsredefined -dev?
09:14.47lbtStskeeps: as "platform dev only"
09:14.59lbthe redirected app-dev to -sdk/forum
09:15.04slaineas in not a developers list, but platform dev list
09:15.05lbtwhich kinda blew me away
09:15.18Stskeepswell, that might make sense to some degree
09:15.21TermanaBut isn't that the original intent of -dev?
09:15.32slaineI thought it was a list for developers
09:15.37slainenot just platform
09:15.40lbtyeah, except -sdk was about developing an sdk I thought
09:15.47lbtand what defines 'platform'
09:15.49slaineI've the same understanding
09:16.09lbtplus it ain't excatly bulging at the seams :)
09:16.16slainelbt, re the rpm training, I think it was th0br0 that was mentioning getting some Fedora heads together to offer some training online
09:16.27Stskeepsif things pick up more, -dev would be a horrid place to subscribe to
09:16.46lbtStskeeps: yes. but that's the time to start splitting it
09:16.48slaineWait 'til this time next month
09:16.57Stskeepslbt: old habits die hard :/
09:17.23Stskeepsie, split is better to do early than late
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09:17.25lbtit's a ml, not a forum... we have tools you know ;)
09:17.27slainewe should all have meego 1.0 in our hands (or on our laps, depending on hardware) and the list will explode
09:17.45lbtStskeeps: I disagree - a split increases the chances of missing something
09:17.54Stskeepswell, each his own opinion :)
09:17.56lbtright now we need to maximise awareness of activity
09:18.00Stskeepsi don't like the lack of Reply-to: for instance
09:18.00Stskeeps:P
09:18.11lbtreply-alls
09:18.17Stskeepsand i also like splits because it aids metrics
09:18.21lbtlikes lkml
09:18.32lbtif it works for them...
09:18.34Stskeepswhich will come back to us again as a valuable tool
09:18.34Stskeeps:P
09:19.48TheBootroowhen will the garage be opened ?
09:19.59lbtpings th0br0 for rpm training support :)
09:20.07lbtTheBootroo: I'm working on it
09:20.08slaineTheBootroo: you keep asking the same questions
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09:20.43TheBootroolbt: you re charged of garage admin ?
09:20.59TheBootrooslaine: :-)
09:21.31lbtI'm not "in charge" of anything... but X-Fade and I are working on getting something up and running
09:21.41TheBootroook
09:21.52slainelbt, who supplied the hardware in the end ?
09:21.55pupnikhow is that possible without access to server
09:22.16slainepupnik: snap, haha
09:22.25lbtwe will be looking for people to alpha/beta-test the processes. They'll need a damned good justification to be part of the alpha-test group though
09:22.35slaineI rock
09:22.38slainedoes that count ?
09:22.40lbtslaine: we have a small server from maemo.org
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09:22.53lbtslaine: submit and see... you only get one submission :)
09:23.02slainehehehe
09:23.15TheBootrooi'm a roxxxin hard Qt dev, can I test ?  ;-)
09:23.53lbtsigh. that was 2 potential testers down at the first hurdle.... "What do you do to make lbt's life easier?"
09:24.05TheBootroocoffee ?
09:24.10TheBootroo:D
09:24.48slainelol, So it's favors your after then lbt. I didn't know it was gonna be that kinda party
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09:25.20TheBootrooXD
09:25.43TermanaI can't remember exactly who was involved but there was a thread on the mailing list where someone said they had an n900 to help, and someone replied "I think Nokia has enough n900s" (or something like that). I lol'
09:25.46Termanalol'ed*
09:26.07TheBootroowhy ?
09:26.12lbtheh... I will put out an email. And yes, I'm looking for people who can bring something significant to the party: process knowledge, experience with relevant systems/tools etc etc
09:26.29TermanaTheBootroo, can't you see the funny in that? :P
09:26.36pupnikbecause the poster apparently thought having a N900 was sufficient to assist with meego
09:26.40slainelbt, I would actually be interested in repackaging my moblin repo's rpms for x86 meego, so if there's space and that's something you'd like to test, give me a shout when you're ready.
09:26.44TheBootroonot really .... that's true and false
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09:27.15slaineTermana: it was probably TheBootroo that sent that email
09:27.18slaine;)
09:27.21TheBootroono
09:27.26Termana:P meany
09:27.28TheBootrooi'm not on the mailing list
09:27.40pupnikprobably TheBootroo's dad
09:27.43lbtslaine: OK. I'll forget - but hopefully we'll get a thread going and there'll be a point to jump in.
09:27.43TheBootrooi have an N900 and i'm keeping it
09:27.55slaineI'll keep an eye out so
09:28.10TheBootroopupnik: my father doesn't have a N900, even if he really wanted to
09:28.16slaineI'm somewhat familiar with .spec files too, so I may be able to offer some help there
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09:30.00TheBootroodo you think that there are some Nokia devs who have already a Meego 1.0 preview release running with preliminary Ui on their N900 ?
09:30.44slaineTheBootroo: of course, it's already be discussed by our benevolent dictators
09:30.53slaines/be /been /
09:31.20TheBootrooso ?
09:31.47TheBootrooit may happen a big leak like iPhone 4G one ?
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09:32.08StskeepsTheBootroo: no, everyone is running xterm with emacs inside ;)
09:32.21TheBootroothey're not testing the UX ?
09:32.27Stskeepsemacs is a UX ;)
09:32.31TheBootrooor have they all just an Iphone ?
09:32.33TheBootroo:D
09:32.51slaineTheBootroo: http://carrypad.com/2010/04/13/meego-at-idf-netbook-and-handheld-eye-candy-chrome-fennec-and-lots-of-developer-details/
09:33.19TheBootrooStskeeps: Emacs is not the handheld UX
09:33.41Stskeepsi would like to wager that emacs would be an excellent handheld u
09:33.41Stskeepsx
09:33.42Stskeeps:P
09:34.27TheBootrooslaine: i know these 3 screenshots but are they the only one on the whole web ?
09:35.09slaineyes
09:35.20TheBootroo:-(
09:35.42slaineand they weren't properly "released" by the meego team, so it might not even be accurate
09:36.16TheBootrooi hate 'artistic blur'
09:36.25slaineStskeeps: I'd rather use vim
09:36.42TheBootrooslaine: shame on you ^^^
09:37.00TheBootrooi would rather use QtCreator 2.0
09:37.06TheBootroo;-)
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10:51.58timelesshrm, didn't kwork
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12:10.48Jaffaforum.meego.com down?
12:11.07Stskeepsyeah, reggies upgrading them both
12:11.28thiagoboth?
12:11.43thiagoboth of one?
12:11.49Stskeepsmeego.com and maemo.org one
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14:12.19TSCHAKeee<PROTECTED>
14:12.21TSCHAKeeelike i am running here
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14:12.25TSCHAKeeei am going to throw up
14:12.39TSCHAKeeewonders why the hell they got rid of the browser as a tab
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14:13.52lbtjedix: ask in here jedix
14:14.14jedixdoes anyone know where the armv7 repo is?
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14:14.46lbtyou can lie to it and use the armv5el rpms in the :armv7el though
14:15.18lbtthen, create a project and build armv7el using armv5el to bootstrap
14:15.48jedixokay
14:15.56lbtStskeeps may know about armv7el
14:16.10jedixso I need to grab an entire copy of armv5
14:16.14TSCHAKeeeso um, where's the next version of Mer?
14:16.21TSCHAKeeechuckles and dodges the nerf darts
14:16.24TSCHAKeee;)
14:16.45lbtTSCHAKeee: OT, take it to #mer
14:16.51lbt<slap>
14:16.57TSCHAKeeeAIIIEEE! *DODGE-BAZOOKA-FROM-stskeeps* just kidding! just kiddiinggg!!
14:17.00TSCHAKeee:)
14:17.03w00t_hands lbt a bigger stick
14:17.25jedixis there an rsync host or do I have to use wget?
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14:17.48lbtrsync? what centrury do you think this is?
14:17.58lbtwe're talking Intel here....
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14:18.23lbthands jedix some 10baseT
14:18.33jedixwell, what's the best way to grab the entire package set?
14:18.33Fatalwhat's wrong with rsync now?
14:18.55lbtwget --mirror --no-parent --some other crap
14:19.06w00t_senses that someone's sarcasm detector is failing
14:19.15Fataloh.. god...
14:19.25lbtjedix: that link I gave you.... look in there
14:21.22jedixokay, it's going for armv5
14:21.41jedixso I should follow that entire site?
14:23.02jedixlbt: you mentioned a static busybox?
14:24.49lbtjedix: not the entire site... that's a complex mishmash for fremantle that's WIP at the moment
14:25.11lbtIt uses the rpm cross build process which I think needs static busybox.
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14:25.42lbtNB if you get this working can you document what you do in intimate detail please?
14:26.19jedixI will try, for sure
14:26.28jedixbut to get to this point was hell
14:26.31lbthttp://wiki.maemo.org/OpenSuse_Build_Service/Installation
14:26.45jedixie: vmware->qemu->vbox to just get the image going
14:27.02jedixthen vbox wasn't working right for the obs
14:27.11jedixthe web stuff was not reachable
14:27.11lbtmmm xen :)
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14:27.18TSCHAKeeeman
14:27.27TSCHAKeeeand i thought the linuxmce build system was insane
14:27.29TSCHAKeee;)
14:27.55jedix-> coffee
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14:33.08lbtTSCHAKeee: OBS is wonderful
14:33.16lbtis serious :)
14:33.23lbtgoes for coffee too
14:34.13TSCHAKeee;)
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14:36.56jedixoh sweet coffee
14:37.00jedixOBS is wonderful?
14:37.01slainejedix, you should be able to write a script to pull down all the packages
14:37.13jedixslaine: wget can do it..
14:37.16slaineI did one last year to get all the moblin stuff
14:37.20jedixnot sure what you mean
14:37.43slaineI probably just didn't know how to use wget to get the directory I wanted
14:37.44jedixI have the src.rpm's
14:37.47slainegrand
14:38.01jedixjust grabbing the amrv5 stuff
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14:38.08jedixso I can bootstrap the puppy
14:38.10slaineI pulled down all the .src.rpm's to rebuild them
14:38.24slaineepic fail
14:38.34slainehopefully they've sorted their packaging this time around
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14:38.37jedixoh god
14:38.55jedixdon't tell me I'm setup for an epic fail
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14:41.56slainejedix: here's an example
14:41.57slainehttp://lists.moblin.org/pipermail/dev/2009-August/005889.html
14:42.05Stskeepsjedix: i'd wait personally
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14:44.57jedixwhat I don't get is this maemo.org/OBS page says it's uisng a repositories
14:45.00jedixI can't use them
14:45.17jedixStskeeps: it's either wait or try myself
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14:48.49jedixlbt: so are the repositories important in this setup?
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14:51.37slainejedix: alot of it is probably still behind the iron curtain
14:52.01jedixslaine: yeah, that's why I'm wondering if it's necessary
14:52.38slainei'd imagine it is as a lot of necessary stuff is still behind said curtain
14:52.43jedixlooking at the howto, they're using debian/ubuntu to bootstrap.. which doesn't really make sense but maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it's just for the inital build
14:54.00slaineI see the Moorsetown chip is finally out, now called the Atom Z600
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15:03.04slaineinteresting stuff
15:03.04slainehttp://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/05/05/intel-announces-atom-z600-series-phones-tablets/
15:03.47sheepbatfascinating
15:05.37TSCHAKeeeand what's that they show on the screen?
15:05.40TSCHAKeeeandroid
15:05.42TSCHAKeeeof course
15:05.44TSCHAKeee:(
15:05.46TSCHAKeee(#@(#@
15:06.45slaineStock phone photo though
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15:11.09thiagoit's an Aava Mobile phone
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15:13.58thiagohow do I order one?
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15:15.03lbtjedix: that webpage was about building fremantle on obs, not meego.
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15:15.33lbtit's not a howto... it's a "oh, right. Maybe I could try something like that" guide
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15:16.26jedixlbt: yeah, just wondering if the repos are necessary
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15:16.34jedixbecuase they seemed to be when I was playing with it
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15:17.14lbtwhat do you mean by repo.
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15:21.25jedixrepository
15:24.28slainewhat repository
15:24.42slainemeego arm repo's or maemo ones
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15:54.22slaineOh god NO
15:55.22slaineIntel GMA 600 Graphics – Integrated power-optimized 2-D/3-D graphics with up to 400MHz graphics core frequency, support for OpenGL ES2.0, Open GL 2.1, and OpenVG 1.1, and hardware-accelerated7 HD video7 decode (MPEG4 part 2, H.264, WMV & VC1) and encode
15:55.22slaine(MPEG4 part2, H.264). Supports internal display up to 1366 x 768 LVDS or 1024 x 600 MIPI.
15:55.35slaineThat's what's on the Atom Z600
15:55.38slainePoulsbo++
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16:00.31Bostikslaine: I was under the impression that the major problem with poulsbo/GMA500 was that Intel didn't acquire full rights to the system but only licensed the core; hence they never had specs to give out, and even the drivers were written by someone else
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16:08.00slaineBostik: precisely.
16:08.09slainelovely hardware, little support
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16:09.41Bostikone can hope they had learned the lesson
16:09.59Bostikbut this is real life, so not much chance of that happening
16:14.51slaineIt's possible that the IEGD team have gotten upto speed with the driver code
16:15.18slaineit was a long time ago that Tungsten Graphics wrote the original driver for them.
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16:20.32CosmoHilloffers people cheese toasties
16:21.08slaineAwe dude, that's just wrong
16:21.59CosmoHillno, bottle guy is wrong
16:23.04slaineCosmoHill:
16:23.04slaineQ: "Why don't doctors give cervical exams to women over 65 ?
16:23.05slaineA: "Have you ever tried to open a cheese toastie ?"
16:23.19CosmoHillewww wtf
16:23.28DawnFosterok, people
16:23.39slaineruns for cover
16:23.55DawnFosterJust letting you know i'm paying attention :)
16:24.02CosmoHilli was talking about the food
16:24.27DawnFosterCosmoHill - you're in the clear, but Slaine is lucky he ran for cover :)
16:24.34CosmoHill:)
16:24.35slainealmost are rumbled as this guy, http://www.herald.ie/multimedia/archive/00563/2804_crispad_PA_563283t.jpg
16:24.45slaines/ are / as /
16:26.35CosmoHillI feel pretty tired
16:26.51tripzeroyou look pretty tired
16:27.05CosmoHill:|
16:27.35slaineCosmoHill: yeah, me too. And I've another late night tonight
16:27.53CosmoHillwhat you working on?
16:29.05slainecustomized linux distro
16:29.16slainebased on Fedora at the moment
16:29.30CosmoHilli have a small custom one for my server
16:29.55slaineI need one for our hospital units and set top boxes
16:30.22slainewe've got a hand rolled one that's mostly ok, I'm working on the tools to create, package, distribute it
16:30.29slainefrom scratch
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16:34.56th0br0heya everyone
16:35.07CosmoHillhey th0br0
16:35.22th0br0let's see what tonight's meeting will bring
16:35.25CosmoHillI'm watching Ultimate Police Chases: Nowwhere to run
16:35.30CosmoHillit's horrible editing
16:35.50th0br0^^
16:36.06CosmoHilleven tho they've redone it with an english narrator
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16:36.23th0br0what is / was the original language?
16:36.27CosmoHillAmerican
16:36.46CosmoHillit's just toned down a bit
16:36.48CosmoHilland less annoying
16:38.02th0br0k
16:38.19CosmoHillstill the editing is all over the place
16:38.39CosmoHillthe story is linear but the video clips aren't
16:40.39slaineth0br0: looking forward to the "* Upcoming Release" agenda item :)
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16:45.40CosmoHillslaine: I have two assignments due in friday
16:46.01slainestop watching car crash tv then
16:46.02slaine;)
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16:46.22CosmoHillmy biggest problem now is the report
16:46.35slainethe non-coding part ?
16:46.38CosmoHillyes
16:46.54slaineyeah, no motivation to those parts
16:47.36CosmoHilli think I'll watch a movie
16:47.42slainehaha
16:47.46CosmoHillthen work on it after dinner
16:47.50CosmoHillmy game is almost finished
16:48.06CosmoHilli have a strong urge to watch Roborts
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16:51.17CosmoHillwhat I'd like is a good computer monitor that can also handle 16:9 stuff from the DVD or sky box
16:52.19CosmoHillI do like that the first thing you see is "Do turn your mobile phones off and reframe from talking"
16:52.26CosmoHillthe only DVD I've seen that has it
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17:04.42jedixslaine: that's what I'm saying
17:04.47jedixthere are no meego repos
17:04.54jedixand there's no choice in obs to use maemo
17:04.59jedixso wth do I do?
17:05.26slaineyou wait, like we said earlier
17:05.46slaineit's all still behind the iron curtain
17:05.57wolfalohalaniheh
17:06.17jedixbut the srpms are out
17:06.28jedixI can't wait
17:06.35wolfalohalanijust for command line, jedix
17:06.47wolfalohalanino ui yet
17:07.01slainethere's lots of inconsistencies. there's kickstart files that are public that reference repo urls that are closed etc.
17:07.16slaineit's a bit of a mess atm. But should clear up over the coming weeks
17:07.17jedixso the equilivant n900 image x support?
17:08.15wolfalohalaniyes, i think everyone's pretty busy knitting together the codebase
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17:16.53slainetime to commute
17:16.57slainecatch you all later
17:17.00CosmoHillbye
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17:20.49wolfalohalaniso, am i correct in thinking that the meeting is in a little more than 30 minutes?
17:21.10thiago_homeno, you're not
17:21.20thiago_homeit's 99 minutes away
17:21.38CosmoHillhey thiago_home
17:21.38thiago_home19:00 UTC
17:21.45thiago_homehey CosmoHill
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17:22.39CosmoHillI'm happy with the code for my assignment :)
17:23.34thiago_homegood
17:23.44thiago_homebut the important question is whether your professor is happy with it too :-P
17:23.50thiago_home(or the assistant)
17:24.02CosmoHilli think he's alright with it :0
17:24.07CosmoHillit's due in friday
17:24.14CosmoHilli need to do a 1500 word report on it
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17:24.44wolfalohalaniah, okay - I'm an hour off
17:24.45wolfalohalanithanks
17:25.04wolfalohalanii'm not correcting for daylight savings
17:25.31wolfalohalanihey Cosmo, what are you writing?
17:25.43CosmoHilla text based rpg game
17:26.05wolfalohalanithat sounds like fun
17:26.19CosmoHilldepends how my work is going
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17:26.30wolfalohalanilike a mush?
17:26.36TSCHAKeee@ <-- the icon for a spiraling vortex of pop culture hell
17:26.38CosmoHillmush?
17:27.06wolfalohalaniyeah, it was a text-based rpg
17:27.29wolfalohalaniwell more like a kind of software you could use to play a rpg
17:27.49wolfalohalanithere were mush'es, moo's, one called tinyMush...
17:28.32wolfalohalanithis was right before mosaic released
17:28.43wolfalohalaniprobably no one uses them at all now
17:28.51TSCHAKeeeremembers
17:29.04TSCHAKeee<-- old grey haired bastard
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17:29.36CosmoHillI'm not old or grey haired
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18:04.43DawnFosterQuick reminder that the TSG meeting starts in 55 minutes (19:00 UTC).
18:05.08thebootroook thx
18:05.12DawnFosterAgenda / logistics here: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings
18:05.13th0br0Cheers, DawnFoster :)
18:05.24DawnFostercheers th0br0
18:05.57th0br0oh, i meant it as "thanks", not bye ;)
18:06.42th0br0btw, just *where* does the community come into play in that meego structure graph?
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18:10.54DawnFosterth0br0 - people can participate in almost any area.
18:11.37DawnFosterright now, most of the people running those functions will be intel / nokia until people start contributing and rise up in the ranks based on merit
18:12.28DawnFosterFor example, in the community office, we have people outside of Intel / Nokia in key positions - like Reggie who runs the forum
18:12.50DawnFosterIn the program office, localization has tons of contributions from people doing community translations.
18:13.02DawnFosteranyone can submit bugs, contribute patches, etc.
18:15.33th0br0<PROTECTED>
18:15.39th0br0I don't really see any place for that in there.
18:15.57th0br0.seen lbt
18:16.01th0br0.any lbt
18:16.02th0br0mh.
18:16.23wolfalohalanimorning Dawn
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18:18.10DawnFosterCommunity run initiatives can happen anywhere
18:18.48DawnFosterwherever they make the most sense.
18:19.33DawnFostersome might fall under the community office, while others, like localization, fall into other areas
18:19.52wolfalohalaniDawn, I'm just getting ramped up - do the TSG's happen every week at the same time?
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18:20.52StskeepsDawnFoster: your topic got cut off in the meeting room
18:23.00DawnFosterthe TSGs happen every week at the same time.
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18:23.24DawnFosterif we cancel them, you'll see a note at the top of the TSG wiki page: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings
18:23.37DawnFosterstskeeps - thanks - should be fixed now
18:23.59wolfalohalaniokay, thanks
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18:28.06StskeepsDawnFoster: when things step up something like ubuntu's 'fridge' meeting calendar could be nice
18:28.24Stskeepsie, show when the meeting room is booked
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18:31.58VDVsxStskeeps, what about mfe ? </troll> :D
18:32.00VDVsxhides
18:32.39thebootroohurts VDVsx
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18:34.08DawnFosterstskeeps: yeah, we'll need something like that
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18:50.08DawnFosteroops :)
18:50.15jedixSo.. I have a repo made, but I don't know how to setup a Cross compile for OBS
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18:50.40demee_hi all
18:51.04jedixhello
18:52.24wolfalohalanihello again jedix
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19:25.01lbtslaine: I propose we update the protocol to include a "raise hand for question"
19:25.34slaineI thought the whole point of putting QUESTION in front of a comment was that it was noted and addressed in due course
19:26.22DawnFosterslaine the problem is that questions get lost. We've had times where we're like 10 questions behind - it's too hard to manage
19:26.40slaineSo how do I ask a question then ?
19:26.56DawnFosterwait until this question is wrapping up
19:27.07slaine(it had gone quiet when I started typing it, so I thought everyone had said their piece)
19:27.22DawnFosterno worries - we'll wrap this one up
19:27.26lbtslaine: that's why we need a raise hands :)
19:28.36DawnFosterwe're still working out the bugs in the process :)
19:30.53lbtslaine: I'll be looking for beta testers RSN for the meego-community OBS that we're building
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19:31.49lbtslaine: and make sure you cc -dev on the mail to Imad :) ...
19:31.57tekojoslaine the idea with extras is pretty much to host your type of thing
19:32.13slainetotally, but as arjan points out, that might not always be the case
19:32.41tekojolegal questions naturally need to be looked at sure, but at least the wlan drivers are clean?
19:33.50slainewell, that depends on who to you talk to
19:34.34slaineGregKH took exception to me providing a binary rpm of the broadcom drivers as he sees any kernel drivers as derivative works and therefore covered by the GPL
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19:35.05slaineI respected his position and came up with a more complicated source rpm route
19:35.50tekojowhich works nicely, but is hard to distribute
19:36.27slaineyes, took a good bit work to make it as simple as possible
19:37.05lbtstomps all over lcuk
19:37.06th0br0thanks lbt for posing that question earlier ;)
19:37.35slaineyes, I was going to follow up, WHEN THE TIME WAS RIGHT, ;)
19:37.44lcukits ok lbt i was OT - thought we were on other business and arjans point piqued interest
19:39.26th0br0but I'm happy to see some constructive tsg meeting today
19:39.51lcukmeeto :)
19:39.59th0br0:)
19:40.17lcukformatting and balance is very comfortable and people are managing to speak clearly
19:40.42lcukeven when misfires occur
19:41.10lbtarjan: I'm just prodding about mic2 vs kiwi... IMHO you should aim to move away from mic2
19:41.37lbtbut clearly not until something meets the needs
19:44.14Stskeepswell, at least the project structure looks sane
19:44.18Stskeepseven though some annotation would be good
19:45.18arjanlbt: I disagree.
19:45.35arjanlbt: kiwi is not there yet. and also, sometimes it's ok to be leading in some area rather than following.
19:45.38lbtOK but you did say "=0"
19:46.31ezjd__I wasn't there when meeting started. But I have an impression now is that MeeGo will be a distribution only and any "dev projects" will be treated similar like other upstream projects like x.org. Am I right?
19:47.10arjanezjd__: more or less, but they're still under the meego name/project
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19:47.19arjanit's ok to take credit for the work we all do for meego
19:47.21thiago_homethen there are the apps
19:47.29arjanwe're not, say, ubuntu or some other integration-only distro
19:47.34thiago_homesample and real apps for each segment
19:47.36Stskeepsezjd__: that's probably good though
19:47.43dhqdoes meego have better maps than maemo5
19:47.45lbtezjd__: not quite... we think the Extras-ish will help
19:47.53thiago_homelike the desktop/homescreen
19:48.04thiago_homedhq: not yet
19:48.08dhqoh
19:48.20dhqthankx for the info :)
19:48.47lbtarjan: I know how important security is. I am not surprised it's being done right. I just want to see it explicitly :)
19:49.24ezjd__That sounds OK to me. My next question is that for a dev project like UI framework I am interested, will it run pretty much independent to MeeGo?
19:49.48thiago_homehmm... not so much
19:50.01thiago_homeits main goal is to provide a UI framework for meego, so it can't be that independent
19:51.08lbtthiago_home: but it would be nice to ensure it is not "designed to be unuseable"
19:51.33lbtie it uses standard apis, is freedesktop compliant etc.
19:51.43thiago_homelol
19:51.52ezjd__thiago_home: But I though it will be easy to use MeeGo framework on other distribution since the underlying infrastructure is very similar.
19:51.53thiago_homewell, it might be designed to be used on meego only
19:52.08thiago_homemaking it work on other distros may not be easy
19:52.28thiago_homefor example, current Maemo SDKs use Scratchbox. That's a PITA to get working outside of Debian 32-bit based distros.
19:52.31*** join/#meego Covalence (~user@m4c5636d0.tmodns.net)
19:53.02lbtthiago_home: give me a week...
19:53.22lbtwe have a community OBS running
19:53.54thiago_homeI don't want an OBS. I want to build on my own machine.
19:54.05thiago_homebut fortunately, I've already built my own toolchain. It works just fine.
19:54.08lbtthen you don't understand OBS :)
19:54.21thiago_homeexcept Creator is hardcoded to think that "anything that isn't MADDE is Desktop"
19:54.37TSCHAKeeewhose fault is that?
19:54.40TSCHAKeee:P
19:54.58thiago_homethe berlin guys, of course, but I didn't insist on a fix because I know they have more important things to do.
19:56.09lbtooh, shiney....we're getting a gui...
19:56.27lbtand by the sound of it... xeyes too!
19:56.33thiago_homewhat? no more xterm only?
19:56.38DawnFosterlbt: dang, and I was hoping we'd keep the fancy terminal window as the UI :)
19:56.40microlithwoohoo, xeyes!
19:56.46slaineDawnFoster: can I ask a question now ? Or should I keep waiting ?
19:56.49thiago_homexeyes for touch interface :-)
19:56.50lbtthey're letting in the riff raff now :)
19:56.56DawnFosterWe're about out of time
19:57.53ezjd__Looks like to me that the UI is Moblin UI only :)
19:58.02Stskeepsi think some questions or #meego afterdiscussion might be worthwhile personally
19:58.15vgradeagreed
19:58.23Stskeepshandset UX not being part is a bit of a shocker :)
19:58.35*** join/#meego chffffffff (~chfffffff@cfoecker.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE)
19:58.43Stskeeps(even though it does lessen the pain a bit that it's coming out soon after.)
19:58.45lbtsound like a scheduling issue?
19:58.56*** join/#meego mskarpne (~mskarpne@nat/intel/x-bguitjrqceifwnvi)
19:58.57Stskeepsprobably a team that didn't deliver
19:59.04slainelol
19:59.05lbtslackers!
19:59.10Stskeeps(so it goes everywhere)
19:59.16TSCHAKeeewtf
19:59.23TSCHAKeeeno handset UX?
19:59.24lbtTSCHAKeee: +1 hr
19:59.26TSCHAKeee:(
19:59.29slainethey couldn't get back from Beijing in time ;)
19:59.34StskeepsTSCHAKeee: nah, just delayed
19:59.47TSCHAKeeeshit i missed it again?
19:59.50TSCHAKeee:(
19:59.55TSCHAKeeetoday has totally sucked
20:00.09*** part/#meego jsv (~jusaaval@a91-156-104-22.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
20:00.10lbtreally pleased to see the "structure" diagram... thanks DawnFoster :)
20:00.18TSCHAKeeegirlfriend dumped me, another job offer told me no, broke, electrics about to be turned off, rent not paid.
20:00.38lbtouch TSCHAKeee :(
20:00.54lbtheh... I hear MeeGo is hiring....
20:00.58*** join/#meego andrei1089 (~andrei108@193.226.40.134)
20:01.06StskeepsTSCHAKeee: perfect time to apply for a job at meego devices
20:01.06Stskeeps:P
20:01.10*** join/#meego W_I (~W_I@ip-87-108-57-12.customer.academica.fi)
20:01.13slaineOh really ?
20:01.15DawnFosterstskeeps: we're having some issues with the meetbot - none of the topics appeared in the minutes
20:01.23StskeepsDawnFoster: hmm.
20:01.28vgradeNo loss tere
20:01.33lbtyeah distmaster... go debug it
20:01.38StskeepsDawnFoster: i'll take a look
20:01.41GAN900thiago_home, the first time I installed the xeyes widget on Fremantle I had my N900 sitting on my desk. Tapped all over the screen trying to get them to move before I realized it was accelerometer based. . . .
20:01.47DawnFosterTSCHAKeee: yikes - sorry about your day
20:01.50slaineI saw them earlier ( was 10 mins late and looked at the online log)
20:01.51lbtmakes a note never to write a quick script to help someone out....
20:02.00lcuklbt he would debug it, but the OBS wont build the debug tools :p
20:02.00StskeepsDawnFoster: i think one of the issues might have been that it wasn't opped from start on
20:02.10Stskeepsi'll quickly test that theory
20:02.15thiago_homeGAN900: hehehe
20:02.17th0br0DawnFoster: uh, as long as the logs are complete
20:02.23th0br0you can always just replay them
20:02.35th0br0I guess the <'s and >'s might have confused meetbot
20:02.52th0br0oh nvm he's already add that ,)
20:02.52lcukGAN900, xeyes is the first time any of liqbase code was integrated into another app o_O
20:03.01th0br0s/add that/at it/
20:03.05*** join/#meego adam (~adam@hypnos.fscker.com)
20:03.12StskeepsDawnFoster: yeah, i think it was that :/
20:03.23StskeepsDawnFoster: i'll see if there's some commands for log replay
20:03.29th0br0btw, lbt, what's that about obs and you?
20:03.32lbtth0br0: rpm school!
20:03.33th0br0Stskeeps: afair there are.
20:03.36th0br0lbt: yes?
20:03.43*** part/#meego macron (~maclaver@esprx02x.nokia.com)
20:03.54lbtth0br0: I'm setting up an OBS with X-Fade
20:04.06th0br0for teacing packaging?
20:04.14th0br0*teaching
20:04.26lbtit will be a prototype for the community OBS for Maemo and MeeGo
20:04.39lbtso, 2 topics th0br0 :)
20:04.45th0br0:) ok, cool.
20:04.47lbt1. Community OBS (as you asked about)
20:04.54th0br0community OBS MeeGo -> repository wg?
20:04.56lbt2. RPM training (I need help)
20:05.10lbtyes community OBS MeeGo -> repository wg
20:05.12th0br0go ahead, I'll try to help you as best as i can.
20:05.18StskeepsDawnFoster: if you give me a bit i'll see if i can make a new log that fixes things :)
20:05.35lbtgod it's hard when you interleave irc with yourself
20:05.37th0br0that's great to hear. I've to admit i haven't been following the mailing lists recently; too much trolling. but everything seems to be taking on form now, I guess I'll start doing it again.
20:06.22lbtso, my internal team at nokia is doing some work to help the internal devs learn how to transition from deb to rpm
20:06.37lbtand we are getting permission to publish that to meego.com wiki
20:06.41th0br0huh, you're from nokia?
20:06.49lbtwith my other hat on, yes
20:06.55th0br0oh, didn't know that :)
20:07.03lbtI'm a community bod ... they hired me
20:07.13th0br0ok
20:07.18lbt:)
20:07.24th0br0recently?
20:07.24DawnFosterstskeeps: thanks so much for looking into it!
20:07.32lbtso I advocate from the inside too ... gently
20:07.36th0br0^^ ok
20:07.44lbt6+ months
20:07.49th0br0oh right
20:08.21Stskeepsand seemingily i'm outed by now as working for meego too :P
20:08.21DawnFosterstskeeps: weird, I op'ed it about 15 minutes before the meeting
20:08.29th0br0so what do you need my help on?
20:08.54lbtth0br0: basically the guys writing this stuff are learning as they go
20:08.56th0br0I'll only be around for about 30-45 minutes more tonite as i'm writing a test tomorrow, but i'll be around from 16:00 CEST tomorrow I guess.
20:08.58th0br0ok.
20:09.06StskeepsDawnFoster: that is weird
20:09.18lbtso would take any advice if you get time to keep an eye on it
20:09.36th0br0lbt: sure.
20:09.49lbteg http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging/Deb_conversion_example
20:10.20lbton a general note, we really need to look at meego policy
20:10.29lbtit's a tad vague in places :)
20:10.31th0br0there is no really complete official one yet is there?
20:10.31th0br0k
20:10.44lbthttp://wiki.meego.com/Documentation_backlog
20:10.51lbtno.
20:10.55*** part/#meego spoussa (~poussa@esprx01x.nokia.com)
20:11.04lcuklbt i thought make install was depreciated yet its squarly in the middle of the example?
20:11.13lbtit's a crucial part of making it work
20:11.16lbtlcuk: correct
20:11.18JaffaEv'ning
20:11.23*** join/#meego t_s_o (~tso@140.84-49-128.nextgentel.com)
20:11.31lbtlcuk: just like distributing src is deprecated... :)
20:11.33lcukand wont the rm -rf be dangerous depending on buildroot location
20:11.38th0br0lcuk:
20:11.38th0br0no
20:11.45th0br0buildroot is a chroot
20:11.48th0br0*must* be
20:12.06lcukhopefully will be else ww3 occurs
20:12.07lbtlcuk: you can be a guinea pig too ... you'll learn lots and you can help debug it
20:12.38Jaffalbt: Does the Nokia Qt SDK do anything with packaging?
20:12.40lbtI also took a look at changelogs this week
20:12.44lcukth0br0, i come from a simpler time when you didnt need external services and chroots just to build some cdoe
20:12.45lcukcode
20:12.50th0br0true
20:12.52lbtJaffa: yes, it makes .debs :)
20:12.55th0br0but you need that when creating packages ;)
20:12.59lbthttp://wiki.meego.com/Packaging/Guidelines#Changelogs
20:13.04lcukthats just scary tho!
20:13.19Jaffalbt: Right, so targetted at Ovi and closed source stuff
20:13.30StskeepsDawnFoster: new theory - qgil was chairing the meeting and hence it ignored all your #topic's
20:13.30Jaffalbt: Bah, humbug.
20:13.35lbtJaffa: I'm not up-to-date to be fair :)
20:13.49th0br0https://fedorahosted.org/rpmdevtools/ << any plans on getting that into meego repo?
20:13.51lbtalthough I'd expect it to be aimed at VB-level coders :)
20:13.53DawnFosterStskeeps: oh, interesting
20:14.10Jaffalbt: I'd be surprised if it spat out a .tar.gz with a debian/ and a .dsc (or a .tar.gz and a .spec)
20:14.22thiago_homelcuk: that's how I made my toolchain. A cross-compiler and a --sysroot= switch
20:14.31lbtJaffa: I saw something on the ml to that effect
20:14.34Jaffalbt: don't you know - it's the future!
20:14.35lbtI think
20:14.42lbtbah humbug
20:14.48lcukthiago_home, i just said sod it and built directly on device
20:14.53DawnFosterstskeeps: I'm in a meeting now, but we should try to confirm that
20:14.59lcukmake install on the n900 is surprisingly effective
20:15.07DawnFosterand keep in mind that chair must set topics
20:15.07lcuksame as gcc
20:15.11thiago_homelcuk: my N900 has nowhere the processing power of the compile farm in the office
20:15.30lcuksure but if you are modifying a single widget within your app its fine
20:15.36lbtth0br0: need more info... but arjan is probably the man to ask. I'd suggest putting it into extras though
20:15.37lcukmost people do not require to build all of qt
20:15.41Jaffa's N900 seems to have the power of our build farm for the past few days :(
20:15.42StskeepsDawnFoster: i just confirmed it by editing the log file and replaying it after editing all DawnFoster> #topic to qgil> #topic
20:15.45th0br0ok lbt
20:15.47JaffaDamn VMware
20:15.48lcukits same pricniple as just using python
20:15.53thiago_homelcuk: even libqt4-dev is maybe too big for the device
20:16.11lcuksure - but pyqt works and includes all the same defines...
20:16.17DawnFosterstskeeps: thanks! that seems like a bug to me :)
20:16.22DawnFosterbut one we can work around
20:16.24StskeepsDawnFoster: http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-05-05-18.58.html is fixed minutes, old ones left as http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-05-05-18.58-broken.html
20:16.25lbtlcuk: the problem is that make install is selfish :)
20:16.26th0br0lbt:  http://pastebin.com/urrKi4MK
20:16.27lcukergo - it SHOULD work
20:16.49thiago_homelcuk: that's different, that's python
20:16.59lcukthiago_home, think about the principle tho
20:17.05th0br0Source0  upstream or debian/copyright  << doesn't make much sense
20:17.07lcukyou say libqt4-dev wont work
20:17.14lcukthat is just a list of function defines etc
20:17.21StskeepsDawnFoster: next time quim or you can do #chair DawnFoster
20:17.23lbtth0br0: so we're looking at templating and accelerating package creation. So "hints and tips" like this that eventually become best practice
20:17.28StskeepsDawnFoster: and it will accept you as chair as well
20:17.31th0br0*much sense
20:17.36th0br0sure lbt
20:17.50DawnFosterperfect! I'll add that to my notes & I'll let quim know about this
20:18.03thiago_homelcuk: one more thing: the libqt4 build is a cross compilation, so uic, moc, rcc and qmake are x86 binaries
20:18.03th0br0IMHO it would be easier to semi-copy fedora's packaging guideline in the end tho... i doubt that packaging policy will differ that much
20:18.06lbtImadSousou: are you around?
20:18.23lcukthiago_home, well compile those for arm
20:18.26lbtth0br0: 100% agree!
20:18.27th0br0but nvm.
20:18.27StskeepsDawnFoster: have a good meeting, i'm afk for tonight :) (and remember to post the minutes to mailing list)
20:18.30th0br0:)
20:18.42lbtth0br0: no. please do mind....
20:18.46thiago_homelcuk: yeah, but we haven't done that yet
20:18.49th0br0yeah right :)
20:18.51Jaffalbt: did you see gcobb and I kicking around the idea of making mud target SRPM (on meego-dev)?
20:19.00lcukthiago_home, whats gonna happen when theres arm chipset big enough to be usable as desktop
20:19.05th0br0that deb_conversion_example is just a draft tho, right?
20:19.09lbtJaffa: I want you + gcobb to help me proto my community OBS
20:19.15lcukisnt it just a case of building full qt for arm
20:19.19*** join/#meego zeenix (zeenix@static.fi)
20:19.20thiago_homelcuk: when that happens, desktops will be still 10x faster
20:19.29lbtth0br0: it's a "release early" and the best we can do so far :)
20:19.30lcukare you sure?
20:19.31lbt(help)
20:19.32th0br0i mean, transmission might be a bad example if you don't build subpackages / transmissiond... after all, you don't have to use %config etc otherwise
20:19.32Jaffalbt: happy to :)
20:19.44DawnFosterstskeeps - have a good night, and thanks for the corrected minutes - I'll post to the mailing list shortly :)
20:19.48th0br0the best based upon the OBS status or your knowledge?
20:20.00lbtJaffa: I think that will replace/supercede mud
20:20.04lbtkinda
20:20.07thiago_homelcuk: pretty much. ARM is not targetting server business.
20:20.08th0br0besides, shouldn't Requires: meego-lsb be actually part of the default buildroot?
20:20.10lcukthiago_home, all im saying is its technically feasible to do native compilation, it may be impractical in the qt sense
20:20.14thiago_homelcuk: it's targetting the low power market
20:20.27Jaffalbt: Yeah, I think you're right. Probably.
20:20.29th0br0You can split buildrequires to multiple lines to facilitate readability
20:20.29lbtth0br0: mmm
20:20.30thiago_homelcuk: sure, technically it is feasible.
20:20.44thiago_homelcuk: my whole point was practicality. It's a lot more practical to cross-compile and deploy.
20:20.52th0br0you forgot to remove the group in %postun lbt
20:20.53lcukthiago_home, ifa cluster of arm chips can fit 100x more chips in a cabinet because of their power profile then its feasible
20:20.59lbtth0br0: not me :)
20:21.06Jaffalbt: But then we'll want the app SDK to spit out something which can be submitted to the community OBS
20:21.10thiago_homelcuk: the office next to mine is the S60 Test Lab
20:21.13lbtth0br0: actually I admit, I've barely read it
20:21.15lcuk:D
20:21.21lbtJaffa: *nod*
20:21.28Stskeepsso, who's up for making a emacs based handset UX since we won't have one for n900? ;)
20:21.29thiago_homelcuk: there are about 50 N97s, 5800, N86 and N95 in there
20:21.30lbtJaffa: and we get osc build too
20:21.37lbtStskeeps: woo hoo
20:21.39Stskeeps(until it's out)
20:21.42thiago_homelcuk: they had to install an extra A/C
20:21.49th0br0ok
20:21.53lbtStskeeps: see org-mode!
20:21.59thiago_homeit's noisy inside
20:22.01*** join/#meego InformatiQ (~rhanna@a91-154-124-224.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
20:22.03Jaffalbt: *nod* - but remembering app SDK runs on more than Linux :)
20:22.14JaffaStskeeps: Eclipse UX ;)
20:22.15thiago_homethough, truth be told, the noise and heat come from the base cradles and the routers
20:22.28lbtth0br0: please feel free to edit the page/discussion page
20:22.38*** join/#meego InformatiQ (~rhanna@unaffiliated/ramezhanna)
20:22.38lbtJaffa: yes, so does osc :)
20:22.41lcukheh thiago_home
20:22.47lbto/ InformatiQ
20:22.52th0br0lbt: will you be around tomorrow?
20:23.05JaffaStskeeps: Eclipse Clearly Leads In People Superceding Emacs
20:23.05lbtyes.. ping me to get my attention
20:23.19th0br0ok. i'll try to give the page some love too
20:23.26Jaffalbt: ah, cool. Last time I asked the response was less.... positive
20:23.40lbtJaffa: Eclipse. emacs for the 23rd century...
20:23.49Jaffalbt: zactly :)
20:24.03lbtie you need to wait that long for CPUs to run it in real time!
20:24.25thiago_homedoes Eclipse still have a button to run the garbage collector?
20:24.46Jaffathiago_home: No, that's always been a third-party plugin
20:24.47lbtis convinced java is a black-ops project by Kingston
20:25.21Jaffathiago_home: which I've never had need for, but some of my colleagues like it for its provision of a memory monitor
20:25.25thiago_homelcuk: like "humans were invented by water to transport it uphill" ?
20:25.42RST38h!
20:25.50RST38hthiago: bsd fortune cookie db?
20:26.00th0br0by kingston? huh?
20:26.09*** join/#meego CosmoHill (~Nate@dyn-62-56-60-21.dslaccess.co.uk)
20:26.10lbtthey make memory...
20:26.11Jaffath0br0: Memory manufacturer
20:26.17th0br0ah huh... :D
20:26.43CosmoHilldidn't fall asleep >.>
20:27.06JaffaSomeone asked today if our product would run, in production, on a 1GHz Celeron with 18MB of RAM. "No" was the short answer.
20:27.22JaffaHa, er, s/18/128/
20:27.56th0br0just who still uses such old systems in production
20:27.57lcukthats high spec!
20:28.30vgradeThe relase has been branched and is being matured now (qgil, 19:50:30), anyone have a link?
20:28.31Jaffath0br0: Noone, it was a new grad employee looking foolish :)
20:28.35RST38hJaffa: written in java? =)
20:28.37th0br0ah ok
20:28.51JaffaRST38h: Indeed
20:29.02RST38hJaffa: well...you know...
20:29.12th0br0Java rocks!
20:29.16lbtyeah, grads...
20:29.17Jaffath0br0: Trying to impress with his knowledge of CPU types or something
20:29.20th0br0Isn't that what you wanted to say, RST38h? ;)
20:29.24JaffaRST38h: Shush you.
20:29.42lbthugs java
20:29.46lbttightly
20:29.50lbtvery very tightly
20:29.50RST38hnecrophile
20:29.51lcukdrinks java
20:29.57th0br0RST38h: not at all.
20:30.14Stskeepsglances at minutes
20:30.17lcuklbt - round the neck?
20:30.20Stskeeps'director of nokia meego'
20:30.29Stskeepsis that meego devices or what does that mean? :P
20:30.42RST38hStskeeps: "owner" would sound cooler
20:30.43lbtI saw that Stskeeps... ain't irc conversation.... persistent
20:30.50*** join/#meego nsuffys (~sabayon5@93.12.206.90)
20:30.51lcukit means a guy called meego is now director of nokia
20:30.54RST38h(I know we cannot wish for "emperor")
20:30.56JaffaStskeeps: Presumably th former. Otherwwise: game over.
20:31.27Jaffalbt: could be worse, could be trying to be a cross-platform, web-based product ISV with C++
20:31.47lbtyeah. that'd never work!
20:32.15lcukwhat about those suckers that built kernels and things in .. c ?
20:32.15lbtnot unless you had a mobile phone sugar daddy
20:32.39lcuksurely it wouldv been better in java :D
20:32.48Jaffalcuk: perhaps different technologies are better suited to different tasks?
20:32.56lbt(there (is (only) (one) true) way)
20:32.58lcukindeed
20:33.13*** join/#meego andrei_ (~andrei108@193.226.40.134)
20:33.14lcukperl for web apps
20:33.40Jaffalbt: There'll probably be a port of DUI to JavaScript output. GWT for Qt <shudder/>
20:33.46suihkulokkiremembers the days when sun was boldly claiming how every bulb will have a ip address and run on picojava...
20:34.03Jaffalcuk: Perl's the exception. It's perfect for everything.
20:34.12suihkulokkiexcept reading?
20:34.16Jaffasuihkulokki: LightFactory?
20:34.21th0br0Perl is outdated.
20:34.25Jaffasuihkulokki: Well, yes :)
20:34.25Stskeepswrite once, cry everywhere
20:34.27lbtperl6 man!!
20:34.32th0br0C++ for webapps! Wt++!
20:34.35lcukand demonstrating your fact jaffa, i compiled your comment up and its a working xml processor!
20:34.39th0br0(wihtout the ++ after Wt tho)
20:35.01th0br0http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt
20:35.03th0br0;)
20:35.27lbtJaffa: so... mud on an OBS...
20:35.34lbthow does that work then?
20:35.54lbtis it just about declaring a repo that is "meegoplus"
20:35.59Jaffalbt: On N900 so dodgy West Coast Main Line data
20:36.13lbtand bunging a load of libraries+apps in there
20:36.31lbtah, commuting?
20:36.48slaineWhat's wrong with C you guys
20:36.48Jaffalbt: can the repo have a pre-processor? "mud" would then munge whatever it got in with some heuristics
20:37.01Jaffalbt: yeah, late nights for next 3 months or so.
20:37.20lbtI'm thinking that we should focus on a repo and some policy first
20:37.37lbtwith a strong eye to automating it with mud l8r
20:38.02lbtI'm also writing an event system for nokia OBS/QA systems
20:38.08Jaffalbt: absolutely, you mentioned mus ;)
20:38.17Jaffabah. sodding keyboard
20:38.28lbtwell, just keeping you keen :)
20:39.01bfreeIntel state the z6xx (Moorestown) will support Meego so does anyone know if that means they are going to produce a Free "driver" for the powerVR based gma600?
20:39.28th0br0right, I'm really out now. bye. Jaffa I'd prefer to have a MeeGo MUD :)
20:39.28Jaffalbt: there are loads of comments on meego-* about providing h/w for repos etc. Didn't Mer use OpenSuSE's? What's the story there?
20:39.41lbtwe want our own IMHO
20:39.51lbtwe'd integrate with SSO
20:40.00th0br0(where MUD == "Multi User Dungeon") ;) /me signs off.
20:40.01lbtautomate promotion like the autobuilder
20:40.02Jaffath0br0: You have encountered a tmo troll waving a 770 at you. You have: no tea.
20:40.35*** join/#meego sqwable (~sqwabler_@c-899ee055.312-1-64736c22.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
20:40.36lbtplus the opensuse OBS is heavily used....ie slow
20:40.45Jaffalbt: Thought: EC2 or similar for scalability
20:40.54lbtheh... I have an AWS account
20:41.00lbtI'm working on it :)
20:41.12Jaffalbt: :)
20:41.17lbtworried about security though
20:41.37lbtwe can't create a VM inside an EC2 VM
20:41.42Jaffalbt: They're doing VPN stuff now, AFAIK
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20:41.46InformatiQi hear the N word
20:41.49*** join/#meego fatal__ (~fatal@97-126-212-167.slkc.qwest.net)
20:41.51lbtand chroot is escapable....
20:41.55InformatiQdragged in mud
20:41.57lbthey InformatiQ... yes indeed
20:42.00InformatiQhave respect
20:42.10Jaffalbt: Some h/w as core & master - then spawning EC2 instances when demand is high
20:42.33InformatiQnow EC2
20:42.34lbtthe problem is that the EC2 systems would run user-provided stuff as root
20:42.41InformatiQsome one breif me in
20:42.48Jaffalbt: Ah.
20:42.58lbtInformatiQ: possibly scaling the OBS using EC2 workers...
20:43.02*** part/#meego RhymeswAlbert (~chatzilla@h31.50.220.74.static.ip.windstream.net)
20:43.03lbtI've been looking at it
20:43.20lbtJaffa: yes... ah
20:43.26InformatiQhmmm not bad
20:43.29Jaffalbt: sbox uses chroot ultimately, we don't worry about escapage on Maemo autobuilder
20:43.38Jaffa(o we?)
20:43.39InformatiQon demand workers in cases of high load
20:43.41InformatiQpas as you go
20:43.41lbtJaffa: stakes are higher
20:43.46lbtInformatiQ: *nod*
20:43.51Jaffalbt: true
20:43.58JaffaInformatiQ: exactly
20:44.19JaffaReduces capital expenditure for community repo too, especially at start
20:44.31JaffaEasier sell to sponsors
20:45.42InformatiQand what is mud?
20:45.43lbtit would be an interesting thing to make work...
20:47.15JaffaInformatiQ: http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org - makes it easier to create Debian packages for Maemo from upstreams (e.g. tarballs, svn etc.) without upstream having Debian packaging support
20:48.24JaffaInformatiQ: And without maintaining a whole copy of upstream just to add that, especially when most of it is machine creatable.
20:48.46InformatiQsounds interesting but depends on the implementation
20:49.12lbtJaffa: this is one reason I'd like us to adopt a policy of "when in doubt, Suse/Fedora/... is upstream"
20:49.32JaffaInformatiQ: I'd point you to my vim & vala packages in MUD if I wasn't on a slow, laggy link
20:50.19Jaffalbt: problem with a similarly packaged upstream is if it's base policies (dependency names, package responsibilities) aren't compatible.
20:50.35lbt*exactly*
20:50.40Jaffalbt: found that with the Debian upstream mode of mud early on
20:50.57lbtthis is the reason I'm pissed that MeeGo didn't make that statement for the core
20:51.05lbtit wouldn't have hurt...
20:51.08Jaffalbt: which is why mostly "upstream" for mud packages is real upstream
20:51.56lbtyeah, which means you still need to follow a package chain, find the upstream etc
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20:52.27lbtyou can't just adopt the package chain and create a -maemo1 variant :)
20:52.59Jaffalbt: indeed
20:53.12Jaffalbt: and it only gets worse over time :(
20:53.37lbtand it adds zero value
20:54.17lbtgrinds teeth :)
20:55.40lcukshoots lbt, my teeth are sore again
20:55.51lcukneeds a new mouth
20:56.14lbtwonders just what would be possible on a community OBS...
20:56.26lbthmm
20:56.56lcuklbt if i were developing at home
20:57.04lcukhow would i make a package to install/test myself
20:57.09lcukdoes everything need to go through obs
20:57.13CosmoHillhttp://xkcd.com/
20:57.16CosmoHilllol!
20:57.24lbtI think your dad did that lcuk
20:57.40lcukgroan
20:58.20lbtyou mean for the OBS
20:58.37lbtyou know you were talking chroots earlier
20:58.39lcuki mean, if im developing appXYZ
20:58.44lcukand i want to test it on my device
20:58.53lbthmmm
20:58.57lcukcurrently i dpkg_buildpackage and jobs done i copy .deb and install
20:59.13lbtrpmbuild
20:59.17lcuk(assuming scratchbox style)
20:59.20InformatiQlcuk: should be the same with osc build
20:59.36lbtwrite a tarball, specfile, run rpmbuild and you get an rpm
21:00.00lcukok, and that rpmbuild is the central core function that all of OBS is built around?
21:00.01InformatiQlbt: has to be in a meego chroot
21:00.14lbtlcuk: kinda
21:00.21*** join/#meego andrei1089 (~andrei108@81.18.92.10)
21:00.24lcukdoes it have protection against being run outside a chroot
21:00.29lbtobs is built around "a command"
21:00.37CosmoHillcrap, it"s eletrion day tomorrow
21:00.43lcukso OBS can be used to build .debs?
21:00.45lbtwhich can be rpmbuild or dpkg-buildpkg
21:00.53*** part/#meego DawnFoster (~Adium@134.134.139.72)
21:01.04lbtaround the outside of that command it creates a chroot
21:01.19lbtand it looks at your build-deps to decide what to put in the chroot
21:01.41lbtall of which is done using the "build" command
21:02.03lbtnow the OBS *service* runs the build command for you on a big compile farm
21:02.37lbtand (thiago_home are you listening) the OBS command "osc build" runs the self-same build command on your home machine
21:02.57lbtso the build-service and your home machine run the same code.... guaranteed
21:03.19lbtand that chroot even contains the toolchain
21:03.43lbtyes?
21:03.52lcuksounds reasonable
21:04.02lcukbut how does it know to build that package for 5 different arches
21:04.29lbtfor arch in arch1 arch2.... ; do osc build <arch>; done
21:04.29lcukwin/lin32/lin64/mac/armel etc
21:04.35lcukok
21:04.43lbtah, careful
21:04.48lcukso machines in the cluster wont be specifialised for arch
21:04.49lbtthey're OSes, not arches
21:04.59lcuktheres a difference?
21:05.02lbtwell, a mix actually
21:05.07lbtyes.
21:05.09lcuktargets
21:05.33*** join/#meego jrocha (~JRocha@174.25.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
21:05.47lbtyou can have debian lenny on 64/32/arm5/arm7/ppc/sparc....
21:05.58lcukyes but the same binary wont work in each
21:06.06lbtor ubuntu/fedora/win32 on each of the same arches
21:06.15lcukso targets is a better name but can encompas multiple flavours of silicon
21:06.31lbtyes
21:06.43lbtOBS has target+arch
21:06.56lbtso debian_lenny/i586
21:07.11lbtor meego_1.0/armv5el
21:07.17lcukok, so a general app which was being written to run anywhere - nothing special, "make all" should build generically
21:07.31lbtno
21:07.33lcukhello world in native c with simple defines for instance
21:07.57lbton windows make install goes to c:\some crappy\ path
21:08.01lcukwill every app have to explicitely specify its targets+archs?
21:08.14lcukahh ok understood
21:08.17lbtautotools solves that
21:08.24lbtfor sane systems
21:08.25lcukbut we havent got autotools
21:08.33lcukor so i heard
21:08.34lbtie all versions of linux that matter
21:08.38lbtMeego has
21:08.48lbtmeego is a strong autotools distro
21:08.53lcukwasnt timeless having trouble getting it working?
21:08.53lbtAFAIUI
21:08.58lbtheh...
21:09.00slaineI tried to follow the moblin guide on how to use 'build' to make native packages, but it never really worked out
21:09.19slainethat was mostly due to packaging issues
21:09.22lbtslaine: wait until we have an OBS... the SDK will fade into obscurity
21:09.44slainelbt, well, more thinking about me, on my local setup
21:09.50lcukthere will always be a need for bedroom coders to build natively without running through obs?
21:10.03lbtlcuk: no
21:10.11slaineis coding in his bedroom right now
21:10.42lbtsure, but that's like saying there's always a need to be able to code in asm
21:10.47lcukturns off slaine's light - its way past your bedtime and its a schoolnight
21:10.54thiago_homegoes to bed
21:11.18InformatiQlcuk: i agree to an extent
21:11.21lcuklbt - theres not a lot of need to code in it, but you can be damn sure it needs to be compilable
21:11.26InformatiQbut then the rpm tools are there
21:11.31lbtwell, for some situations... but 99.999999% of the time... not really. it's just machismo
21:11.43slainelcuk, kids are in bed, it's the only time I'll get today to do something productive (was in meetings all day, no coding :( )
21:11.49InformatiQget a meego image use rpmbuild
21:11.54InformatiQrun it in kvm
21:11.57InformatiQbuild inside
21:12.12lcukkvm?
21:12.16slaineInformatiQ: that unfortunately doesn't work
21:12.29InformatiQslaine: why not?
21:12.30slaineI tried exactly that for rebuilding the moblin source rpms
21:12.35lcukarent virtual machines and systems within systems slower in general?
21:12.37slaineInformatiQ: Poor packaging
21:12.55InformatiQslaine: that was which ver of moblin?
21:12.58lbtlcuk: do you overclock to get the extra 4%?
21:13.04slaine2.0 and 2.1
21:13.17slainelbt: he runs gentoo also :)
21:13.25InformatiQslaine: do u remember what sort of issues?
21:13.32lcuklbt was always hard work cross compiling maemo apps within scratchbox within vmware
21:13.38lcukon windows
21:13.38slaineit's all in the mail archive
21:13.52lbtlcuk: I was going to say "then you won't notice the virtual machine slowdown"
21:13.55lcukthat was what led me towards native building and speedups
21:13.59lbtbut for that...
21:14.09InformatiQwell, i'll give it a try defenitely this week
21:14.20lbtbut even so... you lose more time than you save
21:14.24slaineI was promised it would be sorted for moblin 2.2
21:14.35lcuklbt, sure within vmware native compiling ubuntu apps within the VM were reasonable
21:14.40InformatiQbut if it can be built in obs (which would create a chroot of meego rpms) then it should work in kvm image
21:14.47lcukand i didnt for my small light apps
21:14.53lcukbut thats historical
21:14.53InformatiQwell meego is even better than 2.2
21:14.57InformatiQ:)
21:15.09InformatiQit has the best of both worlds
21:15.20slaineInformatiQ: that was the theory. I setup the build as per the instructions on the site and it still failed on those packages
21:15.42slaineI was told the packaging had been fixed for 2.2, but, as you said, 2.2 got delaye/reworked into meego 1.0
21:16.17InformatiQi would expect this issue to have been fixed
21:16.55slainethe reason I was rebuilding everything was to have a generic x86 version of moblin that would run on non-ssse3 x86 cpu's
21:17.17lcukAND IT WOULD ALSO RUN ON ONES WITH SSSE3 TOO
21:17.24lcuk-caps
21:17.37lcukjust a bit less optimal
21:17.48lbtlcuk: PLEASE USE CAPS WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE SSSE3 CLUSTERFCKUP
21:18.12lcukOK
21:18.19lbtthat's just intel being bloodyminded if you ask me :)
21:19.14lcukindeed - especially considering excuse being graphics speedups - the lower spec machines are normally lower resolution thereby negating the boost
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21:22.29*** part/#meego pkt (~pradeeptk@192.100.104.17)
21:23.46slaineI've been tempted to ask for some metrics that proved ssse3 improved real world performance on typical netbook hardware.
21:24.23thiago_homewell, start by not using the 8087 FP instructions
21:24.39thiago_homethat's a complete ABI change though
21:25.13slaineWith all the repackaged versions of Moblin UI for  fedora spins, ubuntu, opensuse, mandrake etc. you can run the Moblin UX on all sorts of hardware
21:25.16slaineand it's usable
21:26.18lcukthiago_home, as lbt said, asm isnt routinely used now and people have obviously rebuilt the stack to systems without it
21:26.23lcukas slaine says
21:26.41slainemanages about 17000 machines that are either Via 1Ghz CLE266 boxes or Intel ULV Celeron with 855GM)
21:26.48thiago_homeso if we switch PR1.2 to -mfloat-abi=hard, no one will care?
21:28.00lcukthiago_home, inverse: i would jump at the chance to run through all of maemo through the n8x0 spec builders
21:28.37thiago_homeso have separate builds?
21:28.46thiago_homeor run OMAP2-optimised software on the N900?
21:28.55lcuki do
21:29.04thiago_homesorry, let me rephrase
21:29.07thiago_homewhich one are you proposing?
21:29.09lcukits reasonably recently i upgraded my scratchbox to fremantle
21:29.15lcuki used diablo for all my compiling
21:29.29lcuknever noticed a difference
21:29.33*** join/#meego javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/council/javispedro)
21:29.48lcukapps work the same in general
21:30.01thiago_homeI don't know of any differences between OMAP2 and 3, though
21:30.14thiago_homewe're not using hard FP ABI anyway
21:30.58*** join/#meego glunardi (~glunardi@nat/novell/x-rafynuxofugkbwfi)
21:31.20lcuki fail to understand why there is so much emphasis on atom specifics when intels primary concern for the last 30 years has been backwards compatability with the x86 chip
21:31.39*** join/#meego b-man (~b-man17@pool-71-244-170-168.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net)
21:31.56lbt$$
21:32.09lcukyeah but all that silicon and all those developers
21:32.22lcuksure, people will continue to buy new machines
21:32.30CosmoHillgrr, damn mouth
21:32.32CosmoHillmouce*
21:32.35thiago_homethe Atom is a different architecture
21:32.48thiago_homeyes, x86, but different from the rest
21:33.47CosmoHillit's special!
21:33.52slaineiirc, Phoronix ran some tests against Moblin 2.1 Vs Ubuntu and ubuntu came out on tope for most things
21:34.02slaineso the sse3 compile flag wasn't doing that much
21:34.34CosmoHillslaine: did you see this weeks Windows 7 vs Ubuntu 10.04 tests?
21:35.01slaineyeah, only thing that surprised me was that ubuntu performed as well as it did against windows
21:35.23CosmoHillreally?
21:35.30lcukthiago_home, wouldnt you like to run meego on your desktop instead of other things
21:35.39slainethey where game tests, and windows does games well
21:35.53thiago_homelcuk: actually, no
21:36.02thiago_homeI'm not the target audience of meego
21:36.16slaineI'm interested in the other tests which show system performance better, filesystem, process management etc.
21:36.58thiago_homeanyway, SSSE3 isn't going to get used by the compiler in most applications
21:37.09thiago_homethe one thing that matters is SSE2 for floating point
21:37.48*** join/#meego jsa- (~Macbook@dna23-252.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi)
21:37.49lcukslaine, so that includes everything from pentium4 upwards?
21:37.53lcukthiago_home, sorry
21:38.07lbtagreed. having ssse3 is just enought to make sure meego won't run (or build) on non-intel hardware
21:38.08CosmoHillP4 northwood?
21:38.19slaineyes
21:38.26CosmoHillwhy don't we want meego on AMD?
21:38.30tremnite all, sweet dreams
21:38.32slainewe doe
21:38.35CosmoHillcyas trem
21:38.35slainedo
21:38.41slaineIntel don't
21:39.12w00t_so, no handset ux for 1.0
21:39.23w00t_am I the only one feeling a bit disappointed by that?
21:39.25lbtactually the PITA isn't running MeeGo on AMD
21:39.44lbtit's that you can't develop for an Intel Atom device on an AMD desktop
21:39.46w00t_"wait for day one", "wait for 1.0 in may", "wait for it coming Real Soon(tm)" is starting to show a bit of a pattern
21:39.51CosmoHillhehe bbc made a bobo
21:40.05CosmoHillyou could hear the editor doing the count down in the background to the start and end of the news
21:40.06thiago_homelcuk: x86-to-x86 cross compiler
21:40.20javispedrouh?
21:40.36thiago_homewhat I said
21:40.38javispedrohas x86 started diverging so much that different subarches now have their own compiler versions?
21:40.56CosmoHillah this is true, intel and AMD are different
21:40.57thiago_homebesides, the toolchain doesn't need to be compiled with SSSE3
21:41.06lbtthiago_home: you need more... the chroot needed to run mic2 needs to be non-ssse3
21:41.10CosmoHillbut only if you use flags to compile it for one processor
21:41.11*** join/#meego bleeter (~bleeter@guifications/developer/bleeter)
21:41.24slainew00t_: yes, it's a tad disappointing. I'd imagine we'll see a whole raft of stuff come online between 1.0 and 1.1
21:41.29thiago_homeif it can run on Windows and Mac, why can't it run on older x86?
21:41.40*** join/#meego mitsutaka (~mitsutaka@pw126232167004.18.tss.panda-world.ne.jp)
21:42.04thiago_homeagain the distinction between application SDK and platform SDK I guess
21:42.06w00t_slaine: *nod*
21:42.15lbtthiago_home: yes
21:42.16thiago_homethe application SDK should pretty much run anywhere
21:42.20javispedroenvisions application SDK requiring SSSE3 ;)
21:42.29thiago_homethe platform SDK is for geeks like us
21:42.31lbtbut you can't make an image to put on your device.
21:42.33slainejavispedro: For x86, it probalby will
21:42.42w00t_slaine: it's just a bit frustrating having things held up is all, I'm looking forward to playing with it :)
21:42.52slainearen't we all :)
21:43.04javispedrothank god I can rebuild it then :)
21:43.35vgradeThe relase has been branched and is being matured now (qgil, 19:50:30), its available now
21:43.52thiago_homeI really don't understand what the big deal is. I don't see anyone complaining about Neon requirement. (aside from those who want to run on N800/N810)
21:44.00thiago_homeand Neon will never be supported on x86
21:44.06thiago_homeit's ARM
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21:44.16CosmoHillNeon?
21:44.22thiago_homeif we can run a completely different arch, why can't we run a slightly different one?
21:44.24javispedrothiago: exactly. they are complaining!
21:44.29CosmoHillnate@blue[1014]:~ $ rpm -q neon
21:44.29CosmoHillneon-0.28.2-2.i686
21:44.32CosmoHillthat program?
21:44.37thiago_homeno, ARM Neon
21:44.41CosmoHillmy mistake
21:44.57thiago_homehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Advanced_SIMD_.28NEON.29
21:45.00lbtthiago_home: because, AFAIK there's no quemu for ssse3 on non-sssse3 devices
21:45.28thiago_homelbt: technical issue that can be solved
21:45.44thiago_homeagain, if we can emulate a completely different arch, why not one that is only slightly different?
21:45.56lbtoh, I agree
21:46.14lbtI was asking about it months ago...
21:46.20lbtzero interest.
21:46.41lbtwhen MeeGo goes bigger then more devs will hit it when they try to make images
21:46.58thiago_homemaybe
21:47.04lbtheck, I think the community OBS uses AMD cpus... that'll be interesting
21:47.20thiago_homebut my opinion is that, for a distro targetting low-powered processors, we should be squeezing the most out of performance
21:47.47javispedrothiago: agreed with that. now, development tools, on the other side...
21:47.59thiago_homejavispedro: application SDK vs platform SDK.
21:48.00lbtthat's not the point... the point is that there's no mechanism for non-Intel desktop owners to engage
21:48.05thiago_homethe application SDK has to run pretty much everywhere.
21:48.14thiago_homeI've been telling so to everyone who wants to listen.
21:48.39javispedrothiago: both are development tools; why I'd need to create platform images from the target device?
21:48.44thiago_homethe platform SDK is a nother matter. Especially for bootstrapping and creating images, and make world.
21:48.44javispedroplatform SDK also needs to run everywhere.
21:48.46w00t_(evening, thiago_home + lbt and others)
21:49.06lbt:)
21:49.28slainethiago_home: one of the biggest headaches in moblin, as a community member, was the almost daily questions of "can I run moblin on this ?....Why not, it's intel .....That sucks"
21:49.35thiago_homeanyway, we should optimise the most. And I don't think we should compromise there because some people can't run the software natively *and* there's a clear technical solution (improve qemu)
21:49.40javispedrois confused and attacks himself.
21:50.15thiago_homeotherwise someone is going to come and say we can't have atomic instructions on x86 because someone is still using a 386
21:50.33thiago_home(moot point, of course, Qt doesn't run on 386)
21:50.45w00t_thiago_home: it doesn't? we must fix this!
21:50.50microlithso therefore AMD users should upgrade?
21:51.01thiago_homew00t_: it requires at least one 486 instructin
21:51.10thiago_homemicrolith: no, they should fix qemu
21:51.15w00t_I'm just kidding, don't let me sidetrack the conversation
21:52.06javispedrothiago: nobody is going to emulate its compiler; we've been through this already (scratchbox)
21:52.17thiago_homeI'm not talking about emulating compilers
21:52.33thiago_homecompilers have to be compiled for all major archs
21:52.38javispedrothen why you mention platform SDK vs application SDK? both should be native.
21:52.41thiago_homethey have to be compiled for Windows and Mac too
21:52.44javispedroboth should generate non-native binaries.
21:52.59thiago_homeapplication SDK = cross-compiler only
21:53.13thiago_homeplatform SDK = cross-compiler and a lot more helper tools
21:53.17javispedrofails to see it any difference between this and the classic decade old cross compiling environment
21:53.25javispedrothiago: ah well.
21:53.41thiago_homethe image-creation tool doesn't need to be in the app SDK
21:54.49thiago_home"You want to create a MeeGo-based device and launch it in the market? You can certainly invest in a couple of good machines running Linux"
21:55.02thiago_home(I'm not saying good == Intel)
21:55.29thiago_homeas opposed to "You want to make some apps for MeeGo? You can use your existing laptop, running whatever environment you have already"
21:56.04lcukyou just stopped practically every single bedroom coder in one step
21:56.16javispedroyet another barrier for serious development.
21:56.30thiago_homeI don't follow
21:56.33w00t_me neither
21:56.36lcukthats *worse* than the entry level required for maemo
21:56.46lcukhaving to change machines
21:56.48w00t_thiago's point is that a cross compiler lowers the barrier to entry
21:56.54thiago_homeentry level required for maemo = Debian-based 32-bit Linux machine
21:57.00thiago_homeentry level I am requesting = machine
21:57.03lcukno its windows
21:57.10javispedroactually, machine capable of virtualization :)
21:57.20thiago_homeI didn't say it had to virtualise
21:57.24w00t_that's still a lot more hassle than most people are willing to go through
21:57.47lcukthats the level but if they currently code apps for a platform now
21:57.49thiago_homeif it can run a cross-compiler and you have a USB port, it should be enough
21:57.53lcukfor them to start coding for meego
21:57.56thiago_homeheck, the SDK works without USB ports
21:58.02microliththiago_home: for "app" development,r giht?
21:58.06microlithright*
21:58.06thiago_homeyou can deploy via ssh over wifi and do remote debugging
21:58.09thiago_homemicrolith: yes, app SDK
21:58.18microlithnow who said that -I- want to only do app development?
21:58.31w00t_if you don't want to do app development, don't use the app SDK
21:58.38thiago_homethen use the platform SDK
21:58.38w00t_nobody is forcing you to
21:58.44thiago_homeabove I was showing extremes
21:58.54MiskaXi have to say that visual studio is still winner when it comes to remote debugging...
21:58.55javispedroI'm not saying that a simpler more portable "madde" is worse; I am saying that this is no excuse for adding more complexity to the platform SDK (scratchbox, etc.) (requiring SSSE3 -- yuck :) )
21:58.59w00t_different alternatives for different people
21:59.01thiago_homeright *now* you have to have SSSE3
21:59.16thiago_homewhat I don't want is for the devices to have to settle for less because *you* don't have SSSE3
21:59.28thiago_homethere are other solutions, including improving qemu
21:59.44w00t_I'm in two minds really
22:00.00lcukimprovements to qemu should be done anyway
22:00.07lcuk/are being done
22:00.12slainewhy should ssse3 matter for the core os though, that's what I don't get
22:00.16w00t_hardware (especially in some places) is not readily available, and it's one thing to say "fix qemu" and it's another to expect (potentially hobbyist) developers to do it
22:00.31lcukw00t_, OSS apps get tidied up
22:00.32thiago_homeslaine: suppose there is a 5% gain. Should we do it?
22:00.37w00t_lcuk: i'm not denying they don't
22:00.49slainethiago_home: quantify that with some tests please
22:00.55w00t_lcuk: but you're barking in the wrong place, really
22:00.56thiago_homeslaine: not when I say "suppose"
22:00.58javispedrosupposeeee
22:01.09slaineI'm seeing figures banded about that people pull out of their you know whats, no data
22:01.18thiago_homeI'm not saying there is
22:01.20w00t_lcuk: if a new developer comes along and can't use this, and you say to him "fix qemu and then you can", there is a serious risk they'll wander off and find something else to spend his time on
22:01.22thiago_homeI'm asking a hypothetical question
22:01.25w00t_s/his/their/
22:01.32thiago_homesuppose someone did the benchmarks and calculated there's a 5% gain
22:01.34thiago_homeshould we do it?
22:01.36slainesorry, issed the suppose
22:01.39slainemissed
22:01.47lbtnotes that *right now* you can't develop without an ssse3 desktop.
22:01.47lcukyeah w00t_
22:02.02lbtand *right now* there are no shipping devices
22:02.08MiskaXbtw, when it comes to simd instruction usage and such, any proper app dynamically selects generic or optimized code variant based on cpu capabilities
22:02.17lbtso *right now* there's no performance benefit to sss3
22:02.26lbtand a huge barrier to engagement
22:02.28lcukthiago_home, currently i am aware of a quantifiable build of libjpeg that has been improved by use of NEON - but that does not mean that libjpeg was useless before
22:02.29javispedroMiskaX: not very liked on a mobile distro.
22:02.33thiago_homeMiskaX: multimedia apps do
22:02.42lbtsince *right now* there is no app development for meego
22:02.48thiago_homeJPEG is a case where the GPU should be used
22:02.53MiskaXthiago_home: yep, like my code
22:02.59lcukand is where practical
22:03.05MiskaXjavispedro: i don't see any reason to avoid that on mobile either
22:03.18lcukbut that doesnt mean you should rebuild the entire OS because of it
22:03.21slaineI'd love to base our products on a MeeGo foundation, I can't if there's an x86 ssse3 requirement, and I wouldn't be using the UX as it stands.
22:03.33MiskaXall those code paths should be handwritten assembly anyway and pretty tiny amount of the total code
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22:03.49lcukwith ifdefs to take care of the cases where its not
22:03.50thiago_homeslaine: that's a complete different take on the subject, though
22:04.07slainethat's always been my take
22:04.09thiago_homeslaine: you're saying "I want to ship products on something that is not Atom or ARM OMAP3"
22:04.15slaineyes
22:04.40thiago_homeright now, and until the direction changes, Atom and OMAP3 are the base configs
22:04.42javispedroenvisions MeeGo SDK with MEEGO_X86, MEEGO_X86_SSE3 and MEEGO_X86_ARMEL targets, and much like the current maemo sdk, with the shipped qemu incapable of emulating the latter two ones.
22:04.48*** join/#meego t_s_o (~tso@140.84-49-128.nextgentel.com)
22:04.53slaineI'll still try once 1.0 is out and I get all the source rpms
22:04.54javispedro*SSSE3
22:04.57thiago_homejavispedro: that's probably easy to do
22:05.04MiskaXunfortunately arm is a bit lacking on cpu capability detection front, my atomic ops detection code is a bit ugly atm
22:05.07slainehopefully the packaging issues have been expunged
22:05.14thiago_homehand-written assembly should be selectable. The rest is a flag to the compiler.
22:05.24thiago_homeyou don't detect the CPU in ARM
22:05.31lcukdoes anybody know, would the "normal" middle of the road Pentium M without ssse3 be generally faster than the high spec atoms?
22:05.33thiago_homeyou *know* what processor you put in your device.
22:05.42javispedrothiago++
22:05.42slainelcuk: HELL YES
22:05.56lcukso isnt the speedup point entirely moot anyway?
22:06.04slainecompletely
22:06.10thiago_homelcuk: speed? yes
22:06.15thiago_homelcuk: power consumption, not by a long shot
22:06.18javispedrowell, if the atom is slow, you try to get the best out of it.
22:06.25MiskaXthiago_home: that's not portable code... ;)
22:06.29javispedroso I understand the need for ssse3 if it does anything tangible.
22:06.30thiago_homethe calculation is speed by watt consumed
22:06.43thiago_homeMiskaX: ARM doesn't care about portable code. Or hasn't until now.
22:06.52lcukthiago_home, my intel Pentium M based 12" touchscreen tablet works really well
22:07.08javispedroMiskaX: we're not necessarily talking about a single hotspot written in ASM. Think entire programs build for different FP architectures.
22:07.10lcuki even run it at 600mhz powersave mode :D
22:07.13MiskaXthiago_home: just as an example, try to build binary which runs optimally on OMAP2 _and_ OMAP3
22:07.35lcukMiskaX, i barely noticed the difference
22:07.36thiago_homeMiskaX: what's your point, that it's very hard?
22:07.42slainelcuk, We've the same cpu's in our gear
22:07.59lcuki just build with -O2 and didnt upgrade scratchbox from diablo for ages
22:08.27javispedrolcuk: then don't upgrade cause the fremantle compiler is slight slower :)
22:08.31javispedro*slightly
22:08.32MiskaXlcuk: the difference is quite huge in certain cases
22:08.35lcuktoo late i needed to
22:08.58MiskaXjavispedro: vtables for high level functions built for two fp archs
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22:09.12javispedroMiskaX: WHAT?
22:09.22javispedroand call that optimized?
22:09.29MiskaXi'm doing that already on my dsp library for x86
22:09.41javispedroyou expect to do that manually for every application in existence?
22:09.46MiskaXsse2, sse3, e3dnow, etc.
22:09.47lcukare most of us in agreement then that for most cases theres no real technical reason to require ssse3 ?
22:09.57thiago_homein most cases there isn't
22:10.06lcukMiskaX, is special
22:10.14thiago_homeat least, looking at the SSSE3 instructions, I can't understand why
22:10.15lcukbut he doesnt have to build entire OS
22:10.16MiskaXjavispedro: no, i use c++ capabilities for that ;)
22:10.19thiago_homenothing groundbreaking there
22:10.29lbtand currently the only thing ssse3 does is stop people from developing for meego?
22:10.36thiago_homeI've seen gcc use SSE on its own, but no clue what level it was
22:11.02thiago_homethe one ABI issue I've seen is the FP one
22:11.10thiago_homebut that doesn't require SSSE3 AFAIK
22:11.14lcukand thats entirely reasonable thiago_home
22:11.18slainewell, supposedly, ssse3 offers a large performance improvement in FP code over sse2
22:11.38lcukits been proven since early days that FP improvements work well
22:11.51thiago_homeespecially in graphics
22:11.52slainebut the majority of the system isn't being held back by FP performance
22:11.55lcukslaine, but we arent saying FP is going to be emulated etc
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22:12.15MiskaXall compilers are still bad on optimizing things like iir biquad code
22:12.23thiago_homea few % makes a the difference between 30fps and 60fps
22:12.31lcukof course
22:12.36slainethat's 100% surely
22:12.38thiago_homeif you miss the 60fps mark, you have to settle for 30 to avoid tearing
22:12.48lcuksurely not!
22:13.05slainehow does that affect my mke2fs program though ?
22:13.11lcukif you can transfer the data in <1/60th of a second
22:13.17lcuktearing is a completely different problem
22:13.25lcukCOMPLETELY
22:13.35thiago_homelcuk: if you can't calculate and draw your frame in 16 ms, you've lost
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22:13.43thiago_homethen you might as well take 33
22:13.52slainelook, we're not talking about writing games
22:13.57thiago_homenor am I
22:13.58javispedrowhat?
22:14.00thiago_homeI'm talking about UIs
22:14.04thiago_homescrolling, for example
22:14.07javispedroall is about games!
22:14.12javispedrowhat does the iphone has -- games.
22:14.16lcukthiago_home, i know all about fluid uis
22:14.17thiago_homeI'm pretty sure you do scrolling
22:14.17w00t_scrolling is *important*.
22:14.20CosmoHillAH AH Ah dead leg
22:14.23MiskaXjust separate class implementations into different source files, use virtual base class and use a runtime-detection factory method to construct the correct specialiced instance
22:14.28javispedrowhat do people want to do with their underpowered netbooks -- games.
22:14.47w00t_it makes the difference between a beautiful UI experience and a trainwreck
22:15.00lcukif tearing is a framerate issue, 60fps would be MORE susceptable than 30
22:15.13MiskaX...different source files can be built with different options...
22:15.21thiago_homelcuk: my point is that 58 fps has tearing
22:15.22lcuktearing is refreshing the screen itself with some of the old and some of the new
22:15.35thiago_homeyes, 60fps is more susceptible
22:15.40lcuktearing is because you havent transfered all the data across
22:15.41slainethis is all theory though of course. the fact is that clutter et al work incredibly well on pretty old and underpowered systems so long as the hardware accelerated rendering works
22:15.43thiago_homeall the more reason to gain even 1% everywhere
22:15.56lcukthe tearing is 100% system transfer bus speed
22:16.06lcukand also whether theres buffers on the lcd side
22:16.18lcukyou can have tearing on a 1fps system
22:16.27thiago_homebut no one wants a 1fps system
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22:16.42thiago_homeI think the Nexus One feels horrible at 15 fps
22:16.47javispedrotearing eink-based ebook readers!! ohnoes!!
22:16.52lcukbut you asserted if you cannot have 60fps you have to drop to 30
22:16.54lcukthats silly
22:17.11thiago_homelcuk: yes. But the point is that we want 60 fps.
22:17.15lcukjavispedro, shush i actually considered how to render to those once :p
22:17.19lcukof course thiago_home
22:17.23thiago_homeand to have 60fps, we need to get all the optimisations we can get
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22:17.30thiago_homein graphics, were FP performance does matter.
22:17.38lcukbut even the highest spec graphics cards pumping out the highest visuals drop under 60fps sometimes
22:17.54thiago_homeyes they do
22:17.58javispedroand clearly, the ability to "take two registers, concatenate their values, and pull out a register-length section from an offset given by an immediate value encoded in the instruction" is going to help us reach the 60fps mark.
22:18.02thiago_homebut it shouldn't be because your graphics backend is slow
22:18.09thiago_homeit should be because the CPU is busy doing something important
22:18.10lcukhow freeedrich| quently depends on how optimized the graphics drivers are
22:18.47lcukif ssse3 makes such a difference to those then they will be built with it anyway - we are expecting blobs to be from there
22:18.49lcukanyway
22:18.54MiskaXlcuk: i would compare this with audio playback. you can make audio software which never has dropouts. if you cannot keep up with audio frame rate, you have broken audio. same goes for certain graphics too
22:19.35MiskaXrealtime systems - my turf...
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22:19.46lcukMiskaX, sure i see graphical glitches every single day
22:19.46javispedrohey, at least PSHUFB is useful.
22:19.59javispedrohas at least once wished for it.
22:20.03thiago_homeanyway, to summarise what I am saying: there are solutions to allowing people to develop without having a Core2 that don't imply reducing the optimisation on devices
22:20.06MiskaXif you car's abs breaks decided to hang for a second you can have a fatal crash
22:20.23MiskaXlcuk: that's called bad software
22:20.38lcukMiskaX, sometimes caused by hardware
22:20.49MiskaXthat's bad hadrware design then
22:20.55lcukand long historical pipelines
22:21.10MiskaXrunning deterministic software on deterministic hardware is deterministic system
22:21.53lcuk?
22:22.19MiskaXit's pretty rare that even a cheap DVD player would not keep up with DVD framerate for the entire length of a movies
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22:22.55lcuksure - because they purchased a single use chip that was designed to do that
22:23.22MiskaXthat's usually a CPU+GPU+software. i used to work on set-top-boxes...
22:23.24lcukbut if i buy a dvd drive and plug it into my computer with software it can only do the best it can
22:23.35MiskaX(recording DVB-boxes)
22:23.48lcukand all the media players include support for dropping frames and other things
22:23.59lcukits like gaming: you have options to control quality settings
22:24.23MiskaXthat's why pc gaming is failing :)
22:24.27javispedroponders what happened to the "why are development tools built for ssse3" story.
22:24.34lcuki can happily run the same games on a low spec graphics card as a high spec one
22:24.40w00t_javispedro: welcome to IRC, enjoy your stay
22:24.42lcuki just turn the resolution down and tweak the polygon count
22:25.12MiskaXor you buy xbox360 and have exactly pre-defined experience without any adjustments
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22:25.48javispedroactually, nobody can do a thing about it so let's just forget about it hoping that amd grabs ssse3 before the meego judgement day
22:26.16MiskaXsince i've been doing audio software for ages, i find it so funny that graphics people find it hard to keep up with performance spec.
22:26.21lcukor someone sets up a build server to drag in and redo things as the moblin remixes have shown is possible
22:26.39MiskaXi can do several hour long recording over and over again without glitches :)
22:26.47lcukaudio consists of maximum 5 pixels
22:26.49lcuk;)
22:27.00javispedrolcuk: indeed. hopefully one of the benefits of meego -- that you can redo it easily.
22:27.09MiskaXwell, 64 channels, 192 khz, 32-bit
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22:27.46lcukjesus audio is 32bit now?
22:27.47MiskaXthat's 46.8 MB/s + all the heavy DSP processing in realtime for that
22:28.24MiskaXjust for practical reasons, 24-bit samples are carried in 32-bit words (dma alignment on bus)
22:28.40lcukcan people tell the difference between 16 and 24/32 bit?
22:28.59MiskaXi can pump up the cpu load to constant 80% and no glitches
22:29.18lcukleaving 20% for the graphics \@/
22:29.22lcukyou bastard :p
22:29.28MiskaXsure, especially if you put some 40 dB digital gain
22:29.50thiago_homethe difference between 16- and 24-bit samples is the noise level
22:30.09thiago_homeif you're doing audio work, each operation adds to the noise
22:30.21thiago_homethe extra 8 bits mean the end result has less noise than otherwise
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22:31.12lcuknod, that does sound reasonable
22:31.13MiskaXnormalized mixing of two channels ((c1 + c2) >> 1) - 1 bit lost already
22:31.29thiago_homeor 3dB increase in noise
22:33.47MiskaXanyway, i fully agree about optimization and fps, but i still tend to think that for most part code can autoselect hardware dependent optimization paths, either by autoselecting .so on-fly or by doing similar inline
22:34.22MiskaXand helloworld doesn't have to require simd ;)
22:34.29thiago_homeMiskaX: it does
22:35.06MiskaXfor rest of the performance, it's about correctly utilizing kernel scheduler
22:35.41MiskaXEDF scheduling for graphics and audio, anyone? ;)
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22:36.16thiago_homehttp://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qstring.cpp#line3722
22:36.24thiago_homethis has nothing to do with graphics or audio
22:36.27thiago_homebut uses SIMD anyway
22:36.56MiskaXsure, but specifically those can autoselect
22:37.23lcukthiago_home, i *do* like optimisations like that
22:37.32javispedrothe extra indirection would probably cost more performance that the benefit of doing it with sse2
22:37.38lcukusing hardware available when its built makes total sense
22:37.39thiago_homeMiskaX: those aren't auto-selected
22:37.39MiskaXhave two qstring class builds, simd and non-simd and autoconstruct correct one
22:37.54thiago_homeif you compile with SSE2, you get those
22:37.58thiago_homeotherwise, you don't
22:38.12thiago_homesame for the NEON version of the inverse operation (http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qstring.cpp#line3494)
22:38.42thiago_homebtw, gcc uses the same intrinsincs on its own code if you let it
22:38.42lcukare there any similar optimisations built in for the ssse bit
22:38.46MiskaXthiago_home: it could be...
22:39.34lcuktried inlining asm into the blitter on liqbase but always failed to get the compiler to accept them
22:39.34javispedrothiago: you mean gcc's neon autovectorizer works with that loop?
22:39.40MiskaXin the past i used to have similar thing, but then there was the trouble that x86 linux distros wanted to build for lowest supported hardware
22:40.03MiskaXthat's why things are autodetected these days
22:40.09thiago_homejavispedro: I haven't seen SIMD in ARM code by gcc yet, but I have in x86
22:40.18javispedroMiskaX: not completely true.
22:40.23javispedrolet's say there are three ways to do it:
22:40.26thiago_homemostly due to loop unrolling
22:40.34javispedro1. common denominator (386)
22:40.35thiago_home-ftree-vector
22:40.57javispedro2. common denominator for most apps, ship all specifics versions for certain apps (kernel, glibc, mplayer...)
22:41.07javispedro3. specific version for all apps (gentoo, ... )
22:41.37thiago_homethe graphics code does detect SSE2 and disables itself if not present. In fact, it auto-selects other variants.
22:41.49lcukim going anyway, its been an informative evening, gnite thiago_home javispedro lbt #meego \o
22:41.50thiago_homeit was judged to be to complex for QString though
22:41.50javispedroall modern distros are doing (2)
22:41.56javispedrognite lcuk
22:42.03lcukw00t_, slaine MiskaX \o
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22:42.25w00t_nite lcuk
22:42.29javispedroand both maemo and meego do (3)
22:42.43javispedrocause they know the target hardware.
22:42.57MiskaXthiago_home: for example, look at http://subversion.jackaudio.org/jack/trunk/jack/libjack/port.c:jack_port_set_funcs()
22:43.26thiago_homeMiskaX: no doubt
22:43.31thiago_homeI've seen vlc do some evil things too
22:43.38thiago_homeCPU detection via SIGILL :-)
22:44.29MiskaXthiago_home: this is what i wrote for jack and i don't consider it evil: http://subversion.jackaudio.org/jack/trunk/jack/libjack/simd.c
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22:45.37MiskaXthere's the detection code at the beginning
22:46.22MiskaXunfortunately for ARM there's no such nice way available
22:46.54ShadowJK30 vs 60 fps.. do you mean that at 58 you'd get the occasional duplicate frame, which would make scrollong look jerky? Tearing is when screen displays parts of several different frames simultaneously, and can be avoided as long as cpu can memcpy() a frame fast enough, or, you know, double buffering..
22:47.01thiago_homeMiskaX: http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/qsimd.cpp
22:47.18thiago_homeI meant http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qsimd.cpp
22:47.59MiskaXthiago_home: yep, seems to be same thing
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22:48.30MiskaXthiago_home: so for qstring you would construct internal private class instance out of various specialiced ones based on cached cpu detection instead of the funny ifdef
22:48.30thiago_homethere aren't many ways to flip bits in the same registers
22:48.47thiago_homenot really possible with C++
22:48.55thiago_homeQString isn't a virtual class
22:49.22MiskaXit could utilize vtables initialized at load time
22:49.35thiago_homeno vtables. It's not a virtual class.
22:50.22MiskaXthiago_home: doesn't matter...
22:50.32thiago_homeI need to go to bed now
22:50.33*** join/#meego Clay (~clay@S0106001ff3430fc4.vw.shawcable.net)
22:50.53MiskaXsame here, almost 2am..
22:52.07MiskaXreally good example of funky vtable is the arm kernel-provided atomic ops
22:53.09MiskaXautomagically hardware specific without app knowing anything about it
22:55.17ShadowJKMPlayer's fast scaler on N8x0 constructs the code in ram at scaler init time, in order to avoid indirection and extra branches ;p
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22:55.49slaineand I'm spent
22:55.57slainecatch you all tomorrow
22:56.05w00t_nite slaine
22:56.15slainenite
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