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00:33.51 | Termana | good morning |
00:35.54 | tripzero | hi |
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01:17.04 | TSCHAK | bummed that none of the UX code is checked in |
01:20.43 | sandsmark | I can only get a-z working when typing in the qemu image |
01:20.51 | sandsmark | (no uppercase, numbers, or -'s) |
01:21.30 | Termana | TSCHAK, I think it will be checked in with the 1.0 release. Don't quote me on that though, cause I might be wrong. |
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06:20.58 | antonf | I meet belowing Error while build meego iso from trunk repo: |
06:21.01 | antonf | Error: failed to create image : Failed to build transaction : system-config-date-1.9.36-20.1.noarch requires gnome-python2-canvas |
06:22.17 | antonf | I checked repo.meego.com, there is no gnome-python2-canvas package. |
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08:27.59 | Stskeeps | morning slaine |
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08:32.49 | slaine | morning Stskeeps |
08:32.57 | slaine | refreshed I hope |
08:34.21 | Stskeeps | yeah, a bit better |
08:39.13 | slaine | Oh, wednesday already |
08:39.18 | slaine | TSG meeting tonight |
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08:52.44 | Stskeeps | WAHa_06x36: jkirdner is also looking at beagle/meego i think - you two should coordinate |
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09:02.35 | slaine | Did you get any further with your watchdog problem WAHa_06x36 |
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09:11.39 | lbt | o/ |
09:11.45 | lbt | slaine: pin |
09:11.46 | lbt | g |
09:11.57 | slaine | ack |
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09:12.28 | lbt | we're making progress on the RWG front as per emails |
09:12.43 | lbt | I'm building a system that will be a community OBS |
09:12.50 | slaine | awesome |
09:12.54 | lbt | :) |
09:12.59 | slaine | is this all happening on the community list ? |
09:13.21 | lbt | it will be on -dev AFAI |
09:13.23 | lbt | K |
09:13.37 | slaine | grand, that's the only one I'm signed up to at the moment |
09:13.57 | lbt | although quim seems to have re-defined -dev.... which was a surprise |
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09:14.17 | slaine | indeed, he seems to have turned into a moderator of late |
09:14.30 | lbt | remind me ... were we discussing rpm 'training' ? |
09:14.32 | pupnik | looks like my registration problem only occurred with yahoo mail |
09:14.34 | lbt | ages ago? |
09:14.36 | Stskeeps | redefined -dev? |
09:14.47 | lbt | Stskeeps: as "platform dev only" |
09:14.59 | lbt | he redirected app-dev to -sdk/forum |
09:15.04 | slaine | as in not a developers list, but platform dev list |
09:15.05 | lbt | which kinda blew me away |
09:15.18 | Stskeeps | well, that might make sense to some degree |
09:15.21 | Termana | But isn't that the original intent of -dev? |
09:15.32 | slaine | I thought it was a list for developers |
09:15.37 | slaine | not just platform |
09:15.40 | lbt | yeah, except -sdk was about developing an sdk I thought |
09:15.47 | lbt | and what defines 'platform' |
09:15.49 | slaine | I've the same understanding |
09:16.09 | lbt | plus it ain't excatly bulging at the seams :) |
09:16.16 | slaine | lbt, re the rpm training, I think it was th0br0 that was mentioning getting some Fedora heads together to offer some training online |
09:16.27 | Stskeeps | if things pick up more, -dev would be a horrid place to subscribe to |
09:16.46 | lbt | Stskeeps: yes. but that's the time to start splitting it |
09:16.48 | slaine | Wait 'til this time next month |
09:16.57 | Stskeeps | lbt: old habits die hard :/ |
09:17.23 | Stskeeps | ie, split is better to do early than late |
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09:17.25 | lbt | it's a ml, not a forum... we have tools you know ;) |
09:17.27 | slaine | we should all have meego 1.0 in our hands (or on our laps, depending on hardware) and the list will explode |
09:17.45 | lbt | Stskeeps: I disagree - a split increases the chances of missing something |
09:17.54 | Stskeeps | well, each his own opinion :) |
09:17.56 | lbt | right now we need to maximise awareness of activity |
09:18.00 | Stskeeps | i don't like the lack of Reply-to: for instance |
09:18.00 | Stskeeps | :P |
09:18.11 | lbt | reply-alls |
09:18.17 | Stskeeps | and i also like splits because it aids metrics |
09:18.21 | lbt | likes lkml |
09:18.32 | lbt | if it works for them... |
09:18.34 | Stskeeps | which will come back to us again as a valuable tool |
09:18.34 | Stskeeps | :P |
09:19.48 | TheBootroo | when will the garage be opened ? |
09:19.59 | lbt | pings th0br0 for rpm training support :) |
09:20.07 | lbt | TheBootroo: I'm working on it |
09:20.08 | slaine | TheBootroo: you keep asking the same questions |
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09:20.43 | TheBootroo | lbt: you re charged of garage admin ? |
09:20.59 | TheBootroo | slaine: :-) |
09:21.31 | lbt | I'm not "in charge" of anything... but X-Fade and I are working on getting something up and running |
09:21.41 | TheBootroo | ok |
09:21.52 | slaine | lbt, who supplied the hardware in the end ? |
09:21.55 | pupnik | how is that possible without access to server |
09:22.16 | slaine | pupnik: snap, haha |
09:22.25 | lbt | we will be looking for people to alpha/beta-test the processes. They'll need a damned good justification to be part of the alpha-test group though |
09:22.35 | slaine | I rock |
09:22.38 | slaine | does that count ? |
09:22.40 | lbt | slaine: we have a small server from maemo.org |
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09:22.53 | lbt | slaine: submit and see... you only get one submission :) |
09:23.02 | slaine | hehehe |
09:23.15 | TheBootroo | i'm a roxxxin hard Qt dev, can I test ? ;-) |
09:23.53 | lbt | sigh. that was 2 potential testers down at the first hurdle.... "What do you do to make lbt's life easier?" |
09:24.05 | TheBootroo | coffee ? |
09:24.10 | TheBootroo | :D |
09:24.48 | slaine | lol, So it's favors your after then lbt. I didn't know it was gonna be that kinda party |
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09:25.20 | TheBootroo | XD |
09:25.43 | Termana | I can't remember exactly who was involved but there was a thread on the mailing list where someone said they had an n900 to help, and someone replied "I think Nokia has enough n900s" (or something like that). I lol' |
09:25.46 | Termana | lol'ed* |
09:26.07 | TheBootroo | why ? |
09:26.12 | lbt | heh... I will put out an email. And yes, I'm looking for people who can bring something significant to the party: process knowledge, experience with relevant systems/tools etc etc |
09:26.29 | Termana | TheBootroo, can't you see the funny in that? :P |
09:26.36 | pupnik | because the poster apparently thought having a N900 was sufficient to assist with meego |
09:26.40 | slaine | lbt, I would actually be interested in repackaging my moblin repo's rpms for x86 meego, so if there's space and that's something you'd like to test, give me a shout when you're ready. |
09:26.44 | TheBootroo | not really .... that's true and false |
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09:27.15 | slaine | Termana: it was probably TheBootroo that sent that email |
09:27.18 | slaine | ;) |
09:27.21 | TheBootroo | no |
09:27.26 | Termana | :P meany |
09:27.28 | TheBootroo | i'm not on the mailing list |
09:27.40 | pupnik | probably TheBootroo's dad |
09:27.43 | lbt | slaine: OK. I'll forget - but hopefully we'll get a thread going and there'll be a point to jump in. |
09:27.43 | TheBootroo | i have an N900 and i'm keeping it |
09:27.55 | slaine | I'll keep an eye out so |
09:28.10 | TheBootroo | pupnik: my father doesn't have a N900, even if he really wanted to |
09:28.16 | slaine | I'm somewhat familiar with .spec files too, so I may be able to offer some help there |
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09:30.00 | TheBootroo | do you think that there are some Nokia devs who have already a Meego 1.0 preview release running with preliminary Ui on their N900 ? |
09:30.44 | slaine | TheBootroo: of course, it's already be discussed by our benevolent dictators |
09:30.53 | slaine | s/be /been / |
09:31.20 | TheBootroo | so ? |
09:31.47 | TheBootroo | it may happen a big leak like iPhone 4G one ? |
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09:32.08 | Stskeeps | TheBootroo: no, everyone is running xterm with emacs inside ;) |
09:32.21 | TheBootroo | they're not testing the UX ? |
09:32.27 | Stskeeps | emacs is a UX ;) |
09:32.31 | TheBootroo | or have they all just an Iphone ? |
09:32.33 | TheBootroo | :D |
09:32.51 | slaine | TheBootroo: http://carrypad.com/2010/04/13/meego-at-idf-netbook-and-handheld-eye-candy-chrome-fennec-and-lots-of-developer-details/ |
09:33.19 | TheBootroo | Stskeeps: Emacs is not the handheld UX |
09:33.41 | Stskeeps | i would like to wager that emacs would be an excellent handheld u |
09:33.41 | Stskeeps | x |
09:33.42 | Stskeeps | :P |
09:34.27 | TheBootroo | slaine: i know these 3 screenshots but are they the only one on the whole web ? |
09:35.09 | slaine | yes |
09:35.20 | TheBootroo | :-( |
09:35.42 | slaine | and they weren't properly "released" by the meego team, so it might not even be accurate |
09:36.16 | TheBootroo | i hate 'artistic blur' |
09:36.25 | slaine | Stskeeps: I'd rather use vim |
09:36.42 | TheBootroo | slaine: shame on you ^^^ |
09:37.00 | TheBootroo | i would rather use QtCreator 2.0 |
09:37.06 | TheBootroo | ;-) |
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10:51.58 | timeless | hrm, didn't kwork |
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12:10.48 | Jaffa | forum.meego.com down? |
12:11.07 | Stskeeps | yeah, reggies upgrading them both |
12:11.28 | thiago | both? |
12:11.43 | thiago | both of one? |
12:11.49 | Stskeeps | meego.com and maemo.org one |
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12:17.19 | Stskeeps | yawns |
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12:18.55 | thiago | ah |
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13:48.11 | wazd | heya people |
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13:51.51 | Stskeeps | moo |
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14:12.19 | TSCHAKeee | <PROTECTED> |
14:12.21 | TSCHAKeee | like i am running here |
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14:12.25 | TSCHAKeee | i am going to throw up |
14:12.39 | TSCHAKeee | wonders why the hell they got rid of the browser as a tab |
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14:13.52 | lbt | jedix: ask in here jedix |
14:14.14 | jedix | does anyone know where the armv7 repo is? |
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14:14.46 | lbt | you can lie to it and use the armv5el rpms in the :armv7el though |
14:15.18 | lbt | then, create a project and build armv7el using armv5el to bootstrap |
14:15.48 | jedix | okay |
14:15.56 | lbt | Stskeeps may know about armv7el |
14:16.10 | jedix | so I need to grab an entire copy of armv5 |
14:16.14 | TSCHAKeee | so um, where's the next version of Mer? |
14:16.21 | TSCHAKeee | chuckles and dodges the nerf darts |
14:16.24 | TSCHAKeee | ;) |
14:16.45 | lbt | TSCHAKeee: OT, take it to #mer |
14:16.51 | lbt | <slap> |
14:16.57 | TSCHAKeee | AIIIEEE! *DODGE-BAZOOKA-FROM-stskeeps* just kidding! just kiddiinggg!! |
14:17.00 | TSCHAKeee | :) |
14:17.03 | w00t_ | hands lbt a bigger stick |
14:17.25 | jedix | is there an rsync host or do I have to use wget? |
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14:17.48 | lbt | rsync? what centrury do you think this is? |
14:17.58 | lbt | we're talking Intel here.... |
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14:18.23 | lbt | hands jedix some 10baseT |
14:18.33 | jedix | well, what's the best way to grab the entire package set? |
14:18.33 | Fatal | what's wrong with rsync now? |
14:18.55 | lbt | wget --mirror --no-parent --some other crap |
14:19.06 | w00t_ | senses that someone's sarcasm detector is failing |
14:19.15 | Fatal | oh.. god... |
14:19.25 | lbt | jedix: that link I gave you.... look in there |
14:21.22 | jedix | okay, it's going for armv5 |
14:21.41 | jedix | so I should follow that entire site? |
14:23.02 | jedix | lbt: you mentioned a static busybox? |
14:24.49 | lbt | jedix: not the entire site... that's a complex mishmash for fremantle that's WIP at the moment |
14:25.11 | lbt | It uses the rpm cross build process which I think needs static busybox. |
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14:25.42 | lbt | NB if you get this working can you document what you do in intimate detail please? |
14:26.19 | jedix | I will try, for sure |
14:26.28 | jedix | but to get to this point was hell |
14:26.31 | lbt | http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenSuse_Build_Service/Installation |
14:26.45 | jedix | ie: vmware->qemu->vbox to just get the image going |
14:27.02 | jedix | then vbox wasn't working right for the obs |
14:27.11 | jedix | the web stuff was not reachable |
14:27.11 | lbt | mmm xen :) |
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14:27.18 | TSCHAKeee | man |
14:27.27 | TSCHAKeee | and i thought the linuxmce build system was insane |
14:27.29 | TSCHAKeee | ;) |
14:27.55 | jedix | -> coffee |
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14:33.08 | lbt | TSCHAKeee: OBS is wonderful |
14:33.16 | lbt | is serious :) |
14:33.23 | lbt | goes for coffee too |
14:34.13 | TSCHAKeee | ;) |
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14:36.56 | jedix | oh sweet coffee |
14:37.00 | jedix | OBS is wonderful? |
14:37.01 | slaine | jedix, you should be able to write a script to pull down all the packages |
14:37.13 | jedix | slaine: wget can do it.. |
14:37.16 | slaine | I did one last year to get all the moblin stuff |
14:37.20 | jedix | not sure what you mean |
14:37.43 | slaine | I probably just didn't know how to use wget to get the directory I wanted |
14:37.44 | jedix | I have the src.rpm's |
14:37.47 | slaine | grand |
14:38.01 | jedix | just grabbing the amrv5 stuff |
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14:38.08 | jedix | so I can bootstrap the puppy |
14:38.10 | slaine | I pulled down all the .src.rpm's to rebuild them |
14:38.24 | slaine | epic fail |
14:38.34 | slaine | hopefully they've sorted their packaging this time around |
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14:38.37 | jedix | oh god |
14:38.55 | jedix | don't tell me I'm setup for an epic fail |
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14:41.56 | slaine | jedix: here's an example |
14:41.57 | slaine | http://lists.moblin.org/pipermail/dev/2009-August/005889.html |
14:42.05 | Stskeeps | jedix: i'd wait personally |
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14:44.57 | jedix | what I don't get is this maemo.org/OBS page says it's uisng a repositories |
14:45.00 | jedix | I can't use them |
14:45.17 | jedix | Stskeeps: it's either wait or try myself |
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14:48.49 | jedix | lbt: so are the repositories important in this setup? |
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14:51.37 | slaine | jedix: alot of it is probably still behind the iron curtain |
14:52.01 | jedix | slaine: yeah, that's why I'm wondering if it's necessary |
14:52.38 | slaine | i'd imagine it is as a lot of necessary stuff is still behind said curtain |
14:52.43 | jedix | looking at the howto, they're using debian/ubuntu to bootstrap.. which doesn't really make sense but maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it's just for the inital build |
14:54.00 | slaine | I see the Moorsetown chip is finally out, now called the Atom Z600 |
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15:03.04 | slaine | interesting stuff |
15:03.04 | slaine | http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/05/05/intel-announces-atom-z600-series-phones-tablets/ |
15:03.47 | sheepbat | fascinating |
15:05.37 | TSCHAKeee | and what's that they show on the screen? |
15:05.40 | TSCHAKeee | android |
15:05.42 | TSCHAKeee | of course |
15:05.44 | TSCHAKeee | :( |
15:05.46 | TSCHAKeee | (#@(#@ |
15:06.45 | slaine | Stock phone photo though |
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15:11.09 | thiago | it's an Aava Mobile phone |
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15:13.58 | thiago | how do I order one? |
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15:15.03 | lbt | jedix: that webpage was about building fremantle on obs, not meego. |
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15:15.33 | lbt | it's not a howto... it's a "oh, right. Maybe I could try something like that" guide |
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15:16.26 | jedix | lbt: yeah, just wondering if the repos are necessary |
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15:16.34 | jedix | becuase they seemed to be when I was playing with it |
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15:17.14 | lbt | what do you mean by repo. |
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15:21.25 | jedix | repository |
15:24.28 | slaine | what repository |
15:24.42 | slaine | meego arm repo's or maemo ones |
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15:54.22 | slaine | Oh god NO |
15:55.22 | slaine | Intel GMA 600 Graphics – Integrated power-optimized 2-D/3-D graphics with up to 400MHz graphics core frequency, support for OpenGL ES2.0, Open GL 2.1, and OpenVG 1.1, and hardware-accelerated7 HD video7 decode (MPEG4 part 2, H.264, WMV & VC1) and encode |
15:55.22 | slaine | (MPEG4 part2, H.264). Supports internal display up to 1366 x 768 LVDS or 1024 x 600 MIPI. |
15:55.35 | slaine | That's what's on the Atom Z600 |
15:55.38 | slaine | Poulsbo++ |
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16:00.31 | Bostik | slaine: I was under the impression that the major problem with poulsbo/GMA500 was that Intel didn't acquire full rights to the system but only licensed the core; hence they never had specs to give out, and even the drivers were written by someone else |
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16:08.00 | slaine | Bostik: precisely. |
16:08.09 | slaine | lovely hardware, little support |
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16:09.41 | Bostik | one can hope they had learned the lesson |
16:09.59 | Bostik | but this is real life, so not much chance of that happening |
16:14.51 | slaine | It's possible that the IEGD team have gotten upto speed with the driver code |
16:15.18 | slaine | it was a long time ago that Tungsten Graphics wrote the original driver for them. |
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16:20.32 | CosmoHill | offers people cheese toasties |
16:21.08 | slaine | Awe dude, that's just wrong |
16:21.59 | CosmoHill | no, bottle guy is wrong |
16:23.04 | slaine | CosmoHill: |
16:23.04 | slaine | Q: "Why don't doctors give cervical exams to women over 65 ? |
16:23.05 | slaine | A: "Have you ever tried to open a cheese toastie ?" |
16:23.19 | CosmoHill | ewww wtf |
16:23.28 | DawnFoster | ok, people |
16:23.39 | slaine | runs for cover |
16:23.55 | DawnFoster | Just letting you know i'm paying attention :) |
16:24.02 | CosmoHill | i was talking about the food |
16:24.27 | DawnFoster | CosmoHill - you're in the clear, but Slaine is lucky he ran for cover :) |
16:24.34 | CosmoHill | :) |
16:24.35 | slaine | almost are rumbled as this guy, http://www.herald.ie/multimedia/archive/00563/2804_crispad_PA_563283t.jpg |
16:24.45 | slaine | s/ are / as / |
16:26.35 | CosmoHill | I feel pretty tired |
16:26.51 | tripzero | you look pretty tired |
16:27.05 | CosmoHill | :| |
16:27.35 | slaine | CosmoHill: yeah, me too. And I've another late night tonight |
16:27.53 | CosmoHill | what you working on? |
16:29.05 | slaine | customized linux distro |
16:29.16 | slaine | based on Fedora at the moment |
16:29.30 | CosmoHill | i have a small custom one for my server |
16:29.55 | slaine | I need one for our hospital units and set top boxes |
16:30.22 | slaine | we've got a hand rolled one that's mostly ok, I'm working on the tools to create, package, distribute it |
16:30.29 | slaine | from scratch |
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16:34.56 | th0br0 | heya everyone |
16:35.07 | CosmoHill | hey th0br0 |
16:35.22 | th0br0 | let's see what tonight's meeting will bring |
16:35.25 | CosmoHill | I'm watching Ultimate Police Chases: Nowwhere to run |
16:35.30 | CosmoHill | it's horrible editing |
16:35.50 | th0br0 | ^^ |
16:36.06 | CosmoHill | even tho they've redone it with an english narrator |
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16:36.23 | th0br0 | what is / was the original language? |
16:36.27 | CosmoHill | American |
16:36.46 | CosmoHill | it's just toned down a bit |
16:36.48 | CosmoHill | and less annoying |
16:38.02 | th0br0 | k |
16:38.19 | CosmoHill | still the editing is all over the place |
16:38.39 | CosmoHill | the story is linear but the video clips aren't |
16:40.39 | slaine | th0br0: looking forward to the "* Upcoming Release" agenda item :) |
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16:45.40 | CosmoHill | slaine: I have two assignments due in friday |
16:46.01 | slaine | stop watching car crash tv then |
16:46.02 | slaine | ;) |
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16:46.22 | CosmoHill | my biggest problem now is the report |
16:46.35 | slaine | the non-coding part ? |
16:46.38 | CosmoHill | yes |
16:46.54 | slaine | yeah, no motivation to those parts |
16:47.36 | CosmoHill | i think I'll watch a movie |
16:47.42 | slaine | haha |
16:47.46 | CosmoHill | then work on it after dinner |
16:47.50 | CosmoHill | my game is almost finished |
16:48.06 | CosmoHill | i have a strong urge to watch Roborts |
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16:51.17 | CosmoHill | what I'd like is a good computer monitor that can also handle 16:9 stuff from the DVD or sky box |
16:52.19 | CosmoHill | I do like that the first thing you see is "Do turn your mobile phones off and reframe from talking" |
16:52.26 | CosmoHill | the only DVD I've seen that has it |
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17:04.42 | jedix | slaine: that's what I'm saying |
17:04.47 | jedix | there are no meego repos |
17:04.54 | jedix | and there's no choice in obs to use maemo |
17:04.59 | jedix | so wth do I do? |
17:05.26 | slaine | you wait, like we said earlier |
17:05.46 | slaine | it's all still behind the iron curtain |
17:05.57 | wolfalohalani | heh |
17:06.17 | jedix | but the srpms are out |
17:06.28 | jedix | I can't wait |
17:06.35 | wolfalohalani | just for command line, jedix |
17:06.47 | wolfalohalani | no ui yet |
17:07.01 | slaine | there's lots of inconsistencies. there's kickstart files that are public that reference repo urls that are closed etc. |
17:07.16 | slaine | it's a bit of a mess atm. But should clear up over the coming weeks |
17:07.17 | jedix | so the equilivant n900 image x support? |
17:08.15 | wolfalohalani | yes, i think everyone's pretty busy knitting together the codebase |
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17:16.53 | slaine | time to commute |
17:16.57 | slaine | catch you all later |
17:17.00 | CosmoHill | bye |
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17:20.49 | wolfalohalani | so, am i correct in thinking that the meeting is in a little more than 30 minutes? |
17:21.10 | thiago_home | no, you're not |
17:21.20 | thiago_home | it's 99 minutes away |
17:21.38 | CosmoHill | hey thiago_home |
17:21.38 | thiago_home | 19:00 UTC |
17:21.45 | thiago_home | hey CosmoHill |
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17:22.39 | CosmoHill | I'm happy with the code for my assignment :) |
17:23.34 | thiago_home | good |
17:23.44 | thiago_home | but the important question is whether your professor is happy with it too :-P |
17:23.50 | thiago_home | (or the assistant) |
17:24.02 | CosmoHill | i think he's alright with it :0 |
17:24.07 | CosmoHill | it's due in friday |
17:24.14 | CosmoHill | i need to do a 1500 word report on it |
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17:24.44 | wolfalohalani | ah, okay - I'm an hour off |
17:24.45 | wolfalohalani | thanks |
17:25.04 | wolfalohalani | i'm not correcting for daylight savings |
17:25.31 | wolfalohalani | hey Cosmo, what are you writing? |
17:25.43 | CosmoHill | a text based rpg game |
17:26.05 | wolfalohalani | that sounds like fun |
17:26.19 | CosmoHill | depends how my work is going |
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17:26.30 | wolfalohalani | like a mush? |
17:26.36 | TSCHAKeee | @ <-- the icon for a spiraling vortex of pop culture hell |
17:26.38 | CosmoHill | mush? |
17:27.06 | wolfalohalani | yeah, it was a text-based rpg |
17:27.29 | wolfalohalani | well more like a kind of software you could use to play a rpg |
17:27.49 | wolfalohalani | there were mush'es, moo's, one called tinyMush... |
17:28.32 | wolfalohalani | this was right before mosaic released |
17:28.43 | wolfalohalani | probably no one uses them at all now |
17:28.51 | TSCHAKeee | remembers |
17:29.04 | TSCHAKeee | <-- old grey haired bastard |
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17:29.36 | CosmoHill | I'm not old or grey haired |
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18:04.43 | DawnFoster | Quick reminder that the TSG meeting starts in 55 minutes (19:00 UTC). |
18:05.08 | thebootroo | ok thx |
18:05.12 | DawnFoster | Agenda / logistics here: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings |
18:05.13 | th0br0 | Cheers, DawnFoster :) |
18:05.24 | DawnFoster | cheers th0br0 |
18:05.57 | th0br0 | oh, i meant it as "thanks", not bye ;) |
18:06.42 | th0br0 | btw, just *where* does the community come into play in that meego structure graph? |
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18:10.54 | DawnFoster | th0br0 - people can participate in almost any area. |
18:11.37 | DawnFoster | right now, most of the people running those functions will be intel / nokia until people start contributing and rise up in the ranks based on merit |
18:12.28 | DawnFoster | For example, in the community office, we have people outside of Intel / Nokia in key positions - like Reggie who runs the forum |
18:12.50 | DawnFoster | In the program office, localization has tons of contributions from people doing community translations. |
18:13.02 | DawnFoster | anyone can submit bugs, contribute patches, etc. |
18:15.33 | th0br0 | <PROTECTED> |
18:15.39 | th0br0 | I don't really see any place for that in there. |
18:15.57 | th0br0 | .seen lbt |
18:16.01 | th0br0 | .any lbt |
18:16.02 | th0br0 | mh. |
18:16.23 | wolfalohalani | morning Dawn |
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18:18.10 | DawnFoster | Community run initiatives can happen anywhere |
18:18.48 | DawnFoster | wherever they make the most sense. |
18:19.33 | DawnFoster | some might fall under the community office, while others, like localization, fall into other areas |
18:19.52 | wolfalohalani | Dawn, I'm just getting ramped up - do the TSG's happen every week at the same time? |
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18:20.52 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: your topic got cut off in the meeting room |
18:23.00 | DawnFoster | the TSGs happen every week at the same time. |
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18:23.24 | DawnFoster | if we cancel them, you'll see a note at the top of the TSG wiki page: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings |
18:23.37 | DawnFoster | stskeeps - thanks - should be fixed now |
18:23.59 | wolfalohalani | okay, thanks |
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18:28.06 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: when things step up something like ubuntu's 'fridge' meeting calendar could be nice |
18:28.24 | Stskeeps | ie, show when the meeting room is booked |
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18:31.58 | VDVsx | Stskeeps, what about mfe ? </troll> :D |
18:32.00 | VDVsx | hides |
18:32.39 | thebootroo | hurts VDVsx |
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18:34.08 | DawnFoster | stskeeps: yeah, we'll need something like that |
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18:49.36 | mskarpneircfreen | /NICK mskarpne |
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18:50.08 | DawnFoster | oops :) |
18:50.15 | jedix | So.. I have a repo made, but I don't know how to setup a Cross compile for OBS |
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18:50.40 | demee_ | hi all |
18:51.04 | jedix | hello |
18:52.24 | wolfalohalani | hello again jedix |
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19:25.01 | lbt | slaine: I propose we update the protocol to include a "raise hand for question" |
19:25.34 | slaine | I thought the whole point of putting QUESTION in front of a comment was that it was noted and addressed in due course |
19:26.22 | DawnFoster | slaine the problem is that questions get lost. We've had times where we're like 10 questions behind - it's too hard to manage |
19:26.40 | slaine | So how do I ask a question then ? |
19:26.56 | DawnFoster | wait until this question is wrapping up |
19:27.07 | slaine | (it had gone quiet when I started typing it, so I thought everyone had said their piece) |
19:27.22 | DawnFoster | no worries - we'll wrap this one up |
19:27.26 | lbt | slaine: that's why we need a raise hands :) |
19:28.36 | DawnFoster | we're still working out the bugs in the process :) |
19:30.53 | lbt | slaine: I'll be looking for beta testers RSN for the meego-community OBS that we're building |
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19:31.49 | lbt | slaine: and make sure you cc -dev on the mail to Imad :) ... |
19:31.57 | tekojo | slaine the idea with extras is pretty much to host your type of thing |
19:32.13 | slaine | totally, but as arjan points out, that might not always be the case |
19:32.41 | tekojo | legal questions naturally need to be looked at sure, but at least the wlan drivers are clean? |
19:33.50 | slaine | well, that depends on who to you talk to |
19:34.34 | slaine | GregKH took exception to me providing a binary rpm of the broadcom drivers as he sees any kernel drivers as derivative works and therefore covered by the GPL |
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19:35.05 | slaine | I respected his position and came up with a more complicated source rpm route |
19:35.50 | tekojo | which works nicely, but is hard to distribute |
19:36.27 | slaine | yes, took a good bit work to make it as simple as possible |
19:37.05 | lbt | stomps all over lcuk |
19:37.06 | th0br0 | thanks lbt for posing that question earlier ;) |
19:37.35 | slaine | yes, I was going to follow up, WHEN THE TIME WAS RIGHT, ;) |
19:37.44 | lcuk | its ok lbt i was OT - thought we were on other business and arjans point piqued interest |
19:39.26 | th0br0 | but I'm happy to see some constructive tsg meeting today |
19:39.51 | lcuk | meeto :) |
19:39.59 | th0br0 | :) |
19:40.17 | lcuk | formatting and balance is very comfortable and people are managing to speak clearly |
19:40.42 | lcuk | even when misfires occur |
19:41.10 | lbt | arjan: I'm just prodding about mic2 vs kiwi... IMHO you should aim to move away from mic2 |
19:41.37 | lbt | but clearly not until something meets the needs |
19:44.14 | Stskeeps | well, at least the project structure looks sane |
19:44.18 | Stskeeps | even though some annotation would be good |
19:45.18 | arjan | lbt: I disagree. |
19:45.35 | arjan | lbt: kiwi is not there yet. and also, sometimes it's ok to be leading in some area rather than following. |
19:45.38 | lbt | OK but you did say "=0" |
19:46.31 | ezjd__ | I wasn't there when meeting started. But I have an impression now is that MeeGo will be a distribution only and any "dev projects" will be treated similar like other upstream projects like x.org. Am I right? |
19:47.10 | arjan | ezjd__: more or less, but they're still under the meego name/project |
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19:47.19 | arjan | it's ok to take credit for the work we all do for meego |
19:47.21 | thiago_home | then there are the apps |
19:47.29 | arjan | we're not, say, ubuntu or some other integration-only distro |
19:47.34 | thiago_home | sample and real apps for each segment |
19:47.36 | Stskeeps | ezjd__: that's probably good though |
19:47.43 | dhq | does meego have better maps than maemo5 |
19:47.45 | lbt | ezjd__: not quite... we think the Extras-ish will help |
19:47.53 | thiago_home | like the desktop/homescreen |
19:48.04 | thiago_home | dhq: not yet |
19:48.08 | dhq | oh |
19:48.20 | dhq | thankx for the info :) |
19:48.47 | lbt | arjan: I know how important security is. I am not surprised it's being done right. I just want to see it explicitly :) |
19:49.24 | ezjd__ | That sounds OK to me. My next question is that for a dev project like UI framework I am interested, will it run pretty much independent to MeeGo? |
19:49.48 | thiago_home | hmm... not so much |
19:50.01 | thiago_home | its main goal is to provide a UI framework for meego, so it can't be that independent |
19:51.08 | lbt | thiago_home: but it would be nice to ensure it is not "designed to be unuseable" |
19:51.33 | lbt | ie it uses standard apis, is freedesktop compliant etc. |
19:51.43 | thiago_home | lol |
19:51.52 | ezjd__ | thiago_home: But I though it will be easy to use MeeGo framework on other distribution since the underlying infrastructure is very similar. |
19:51.53 | thiago_home | well, it might be designed to be used on meego only |
19:52.08 | thiago_home | making it work on other distros may not be easy |
19:52.28 | thiago_home | for example, current Maemo SDKs use Scratchbox. That's a PITA to get working outside of Debian 32-bit based distros. |
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19:53.02 | lbt | thiago_home: give me a week... |
19:53.22 | lbt | we have a community OBS running |
19:53.54 | thiago_home | I don't want an OBS. I want to build on my own machine. |
19:54.05 | thiago_home | but fortunately, I've already built my own toolchain. It works just fine. |
19:54.08 | lbt | then you don't understand OBS :) |
19:54.21 | thiago_home | except Creator is hardcoded to think that "anything that isn't MADDE is Desktop" |
19:54.37 | TSCHAKeee | whose fault is that? |
19:54.40 | TSCHAKeee | :P |
19:54.58 | thiago_home | the berlin guys, of course, but I didn't insist on a fix because I know they have more important things to do. |
19:56.09 | lbt | ooh, shiney....we're getting a gui... |
19:56.27 | lbt | and by the sound of it... xeyes too! |
19:56.33 | thiago_home | what? no more xterm only? |
19:56.38 | DawnFoster | lbt: dang, and I was hoping we'd keep the fancy terminal window as the UI :) |
19:56.40 | microlith | woohoo, xeyes! |
19:56.46 | slaine | DawnFoster: can I ask a question now ? Or should I keep waiting ? |
19:56.49 | thiago_home | xeyes for touch interface :-) |
19:56.50 | lbt | they're letting in the riff raff now :) |
19:56.56 | DawnFoster | We're about out of time |
19:57.53 | ezjd__ | Looks like to me that the UI is Moblin UI only :) |
19:58.02 | Stskeeps | i think some questions or #meego afterdiscussion might be worthwhile personally |
19:58.15 | vgrade | agreed |
19:58.23 | Stskeeps | handset UX not being part is a bit of a shocker :) |
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19:58.43 | Stskeeps | (even though it does lessen the pain a bit that it's coming out soon after.) |
19:58.45 | lbt | sound like a scheduling issue? |
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19:58.57 | Stskeeps | probably a team that didn't deliver |
19:59.04 | slaine | lol |
19:59.05 | lbt | slackers! |
19:59.10 | Stskeeps | (so it goes everywhere) |
19:59.16 | TSCHAKeee | wtf |
19:59.23 | TSCHAKeee | no handset UX? |
19:59.24 | lbt | TSCHAKeee: +1 hr |
19:59.26 | TSCHAKeee | :( |
19:59.29 | slaine | they couldn't get back from Beijing in time ;) |
19:59.34 | Stskeeps | TSCHAKeee: nah, just delayed |
19:59.47 | TSCHAKeee | shit i missed it again? |
19:59.50 | TSCHAKeee | :( |
19:59.55 | TSCHAKeee | today has totally sucked |
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20:00.10 | lbt | really pleased to see the "structure" diagram... thanks DawnFoster :) |
20:00.18 | TSCHAKeee | girlfriend dumped me, another job offer told me no, broke, electrics about to be turned off, rent not paid. |
20:00.38 | lbt | ouch TSCHAKeee :( |
20:00.54 | lbt | heh... I hear MeeGo is hiring.... |
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20:01.06 | Stskeeps | TSCHAKeee: perfect time to apply for a job at meego devices |
20:01.06 | Stskeeps | :P |
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20:01.13 | slaine | Oh really ? |
20:01.15 | DawnFoster | stskeeps: we're having some issues with the meetbot - none of the topics appeared in the minutes |
20:01.23 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: hmm. |
20:01.28 | vgrade | No loss tere |
20:01.33 | lbt | yeah distmaster... go debug it |
20:01.38 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: i'll take a look |
20:01.41 | GAN900 | thiago_home, the first time I installed the xeyes widget on Fremantle I had my N900 sitting on my desk. Tapped all over the screen trying to get them to move before I realized it was accelerometer based. . . . |
20:01.47 | DawnFoster | TSCHAKeee: yikes - sorry about your day |
20:01.50 | slaine | I saw them earlier ( was 10 mins late and looked at the online log) |
20:01.51 | lbt | makes a note never to write a quick script to help someone out.... |
20:02.00 | lcuk | lbt he would debug it, but the OBS wont build the debug tools :p |
20:02.00 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: i think one of the issues might have been that it wasn't opped from start on |
20:02.10 | Stskeeps | i'll quickly test that theory |
20:02.15 | thiago_home | GAN900: hehehe |
20:02.17 | th0br0 | DawnFoster: uh, as long as the logs are complete |
20:02.23 | th0br0 | you can always just replay them |
20:02.35 | th0br0 | I guess the <'s and >'s might have confused meetbot |
20:02.52 | th0br0 | oh nvm he's already add that ,) |
20:02.52 | lcuk | GAN900, xeyes is the first time any of liqbase code was integrated into another app o_O |
20:03.01 | th0br0 | s/add that/at it/ |
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20:03.12 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: yeah, i think it was that :/ |
20:03.23 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: i'll see if there's some commands for log replay |
20:03.29 | th0br0 | btw, lbt, what's that about obs and you? |
20:03.32 | lbt | th0br0: rpm school! |
20:03.33 | th0br0 | Stskeeps: afair there are. |
20:03.36 | th0br0 | lbt: yes? |
20:03.43 | *** part/#meego macron (~maclaver@esprx02x.nokia.com) |
20:03.54 | lbt | th0br0: I'm setting up an OBS with X-Fade |
20:04.06 | th0br0 | for teacing packaging? |
20:04.14 | th0br0 | *teaching |
20:04.26 | lbt | it will be a prototype for the community OBS for Maemo and MeeGo |
20:04.39 | lbt | so, 2 topics th0br0 :) |
20:04.45 | th0br0 | :) ok, cool. |
20:04.47 | lbt | 1. Community OBS (as you asked about) |
20:04.54 | th0br0 | community OBS MeeGo -> repository wg? |
20:04.56 | lbt | 2. RPM training (I need help) |
20:05.10 | lbt | yes community OBS MeeGo -> repository wg |
20:05.12 | th0br0 | go ahead, I'll try to help you as best as i can. |
20:05.18 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: if you give me a bit i'll see if i can make a new log that fixes things :) |
20:05.35 | lbt | god it's hard when you interleave irc with yourself |
20:05.37 | th0br0 | that's great to hear. I've to admit i haven't been following the mailing lists recently; too much trolling. but everything seems to be taking on form now, I guess I'll start doing it again. |
20:06.22 | lbt | so, my internal team at nokia is doing some work to help the internal devs learn how to transition from deb to rpm |
20:06.37 | lbt | and we are getting permission to publish that to meego.com wiki |
20:06.41 | th0br0 | huh, you're from nokia? |
20:06.49 | lbt | with my other hat on, yes |
20:06.55 | th0br0 | oh, didn't know that :) |
20:07.03 | lbt | I'm a community bod ... they hired me |
20:07.13 | th0br0 | ok |
20:07.18 | lbt | :) |
20:07.24 | th0br0 | recently? |
20:07.24 | DawnFoster | stskeeps: thanks so much for looking into it! |
20:07.32 | lbt | so I advocate from the inside too ... gently |
20:07.36 | th0br0 | ^^ ok |
20:07.44 | lbt | 6+ months |
20:07.49 | th0br0 | oh right |
20:08.21 | Stskeeps | and seemingily i'm outed by now as working for meego too :P |
20:08.21 | DawnFoster | stskeeps: weird, I op'ed it about 15 minutes before the meeting |
20:08.29 | th0br0 | so what do you need my help on? |
20:08.54 | lbt | th0br0: basically the guys writing this stuff are learning as they go |
20:08.56 | th0br0 | I'll only be around for about 30-45 minutes more tonite as i'm writing a test tomorrow, but i'll be around from 16:00 CEST tomorrow I guess. |
20:08.58 | th0br0 | ok. |
20:09.06 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: that is weird |
20:09.18 | lbt | so would take any advice if you get time to keep an eye on it |
20:09.36 | th0br0 | lbt: sure. |
20:09.49 | lbt | eg http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging/Deb_conversion_example |
20:10.20 | lbt | on a general note, we really need to look at meego policy |
20:10.29 | lbt | it's a tad vague in places :) |
20:10.31 | th0br0 | there is no really complete official one yet is there? |
20:10.31 | th0br0 | k |
20:10.44 | lbt | http://wiki.meego.com/Documentation_backlog |
20:10.51 | lbt | no. |
20:10.55 | *** part/#meego spoussa (~poussa@esprx01x.nokia.com) |
20:11.04 | lcuk | lbt i thought make install was depreciated yet its squarly in the middle of the example? |
20:11.13 | lbt | it's a crucial part of making it work |
20:11.16 | lbt | lcuk: correct |
20:11.18 | Jaffa | Ev'ning |
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20:11.31 | lbt | lcuk: just like distributing src is deprecated... :) |
20:11.33 | lcuk | and wont the rm -rf be dangerous depending on buildroot location |
20:11.38 | th0br0 | lcuk: |
20:11.38 | th0br0 | no |
20:11.45 | th0br0 | buildroot is a chroot |
20:11.48 | th0br0 | *must* be |
20:12.06 | lcuk | hopefully will be else ww3 occurs |
20:12.07 | lbt | lcuk: you can be a guinea pig too ... you'll learn lots and you can help debug it |
20:12.38 | Jaffa | lbt: Does the Nokia Qt SDK do anything with packaging? |
20:12.40 | lbt | I also took a look at changelogs this week |
20:12.44 | lcuk | th0br0, i come from a simpler time when you didnt need external services and chroots just to build some cdoe |
20:12.45 | lcuk | code |
20:12.50 | th0br0 | true |
20:12.52 | lbt | Jaffa: yes, it makes .debs :) |
20:12.55 | th0br0 | but you need that when creating packages ;) |
20:12.59 | lbt | http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging/Guidelines#Changelogs |
20:13.04 | lcuk | thats just scary tho! |
20:13.19 | Jaffa | lbt: Right, so targetted at Ovi and closed source stuff |
20:13.30 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: new theory - qgil was chairing the meeting and hence it ignored all your #topic's |
20:13.30 | Jaffa | lbt: Bah, humbug. |
20:13.35 | lbt | Jaffa: I'm not up-to-date to be fair :) |
20:13.49 | th0br0 | https://fedorahosted.org/rpmdevtools/ << any plans on getting that into meego repo? |
20:13.51 | lbt | although I'd expect it to be aimed at VB-level coders :) |
20:13.53 | DawnFoster | Stskeeps: oh, interesting |
20:14.10 | Jaffa | lbt: I'd be surprised if it spat out a .tar.gz with a debian/ and a .dsc (or a .tar.gz and a .spec) |
20:14.22 | thiago_home | lcuk: that's how I made my toolchain. A cross-compiler and a --sysroot= switch |
20:14.31 | lbt | Jaffa: I saw something on the ml to that effect |
20:14.34 | Jaffa | lbt: don't you know - it's the future! |
20:14.35 | lbt | I think |
20:14.42 | lbt | bah humbug |
20:14.48 | lcuk | thiago_home, i just said sod it and built directly on device |
20:14.53 | DawnFoster | stskeeps: I'm in a meeting now, but we should try to confirm that |
20:14.59 | lcuk | make install on the n900 is surprisingly effective |
20:15.07 | DawnFoster | and keep in mind that chair must set topics |
20:15.07 | lcuk | same as gcc |
20:15.11 | thiago_home | lcuk: my N900 has nowhere the processing power of the compile farm in the office |
20:15.30 | lcuk | sure but if you are modifying a single widget within your app its fine |
20:15.36 | lbt | th0br0: need more info... but arjan is probably the man to ask. I'd suggest putting it into extras though |
20:15.37 | lcuk | most people do not require to build all of qt |
20:15.41 | Jaffa | 's N900 seems to have the power of our build farm for the past few days :( |
20:15.42 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: i just confirmed it by editing the log file and replaying it after editing all DawnFoster> #topic to qgil> #topic |
20:15.45 | th0br0 | ok lbt |
20:15.47 | Jaffa | Damn VMware |
20:15.48 | lcuk | its same pricniple as just using python |
20:15.53 | thiago_home | lcuk: even libqt4-dev is maybe too big for the device |
20:16.11 | lcuk | sure - but pyqt works and includes all the same defines... |
20:16.17 | DawnFoster | stskeeps: thanks! that seems like a bug to me :) |
20:16.22 | DawnFoster | but one we can work around |
20:16.24 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-05-05-18.58.html is fixed minutes, old ones left as http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-05-05-18.58-broken.html |
20:16.25 | lbt | lcuk: the problem is that make install is selfish :) |
20:16.26 | th0br0 | lbt: http://pastebin.com/urrKi4MK |
20:16.27 | lcuk | ergo - it SHOULD work |
20:16.49 | thiago_home | lcuk: that's different, that's python |
20:16.59 | lcuk | thiago_home, think about the principle tho |
20:17.05 | th0br0 | Source0 upstream or debian/copyright << doesn't make much sense |
20:17.07 | lcuk | you say libqt4-dev wont work |
20:17.14 | lcuk | that is just a list of function defines etc |
20:17.21 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: next time quim or you can do #chair DawnFoster |
20:17.23 | lbt | th0br0: so we're looking at templating and accelerating package creation. So "hints and tips" like this that eventually become best practice |
20:17.28 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: and it will accept you as chair as well |
20:17.31 | th0br0 | *much sense |
20:17.36 | th0br0 | sure lbt |
20:17.50 | DawnFoster | perfect! I'll add that to my notes & I'll let quim know about this |
20:18.03 | thiago_home | lcuk: one more thing: the libqt4 build is a cross compilation, so uic, moc, rcc and qmake are x86 binaries |
20:18.03 | th0br0 | IMHO it would be easier to semi-copy fedora's packaging guideline in the end tho... i doubt that packaging policy will differ that much |
20:18.06 | lbt | ImadSousou: are you around? |
20:18.23 | lcuk | thiago_home, well compile those for arm |
20:18.26 | lbt | th0br0: 100% agree! |
20:18.27 | th0br0 | but nvm. |
20:18.27 | Stskeeps | DawnFoster: have a good meeting, i'm afk for tonight :) (and remember to post the minutes to mailing list) |
20:18.30 | th0br0 | :) |
20:18.42 | lbt | th0br0: no. please do mind.... |
20:18.46 | thiago_home | lcuk: yeah, but we haven't done that yet |
20:18.49 | th0br0 | yeah right :) |
20:18.51 | Jaffa | lbt: did you see gcobb and I kicking around the idea of making mud target SRPM (on meego-dev)? |
20:19.00 | lcuk | thiago_home, whats gonna happen when theres arm chipset big enough to be usable as desktop |
20:19.05 | th0br0 | that deb_conversion_example is just a draft tho, right? |
20:19.09 | lbt | Jaffa: I want you + gcobb to help me proto my community OBS |
20:19.15 | lcuk | isnt it just a case of building full qt for arm |
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20:19.20 | thiago_home | lcuk: when that happens, desktops will be still 10x faster |
20:19.29 | lbt | th0br0: it's a "release early" and the best we can do so far :) |
20:19.30 | lcuk | are you sure? |
20:19.31 | lbt | (help) |
20:19.32 | th0br0 | i mean, transmission might be a bad example if you don't build subpackages / transmissiond... after all, you don't have to use %config etc otherwise |
20:19.32 | Jaffa | lbt: happy to :) |
20:19.44 | DawnFoster | stskeeps - have a good night, and thanks for the corrected minutes - I'll post to the mailing list shortly :) |
20:19.48 | th0br0 | the best based upon the OBS status or your knowledge? |
20:20.00 | lbt | Jaffa: I think that will replace/supercede mud |
20:20.04 | lbt | kinda |
20:20.07 | thiago_home | lcuk: pretty much. ARM is not targetting server business. |
20:20.08 | th0br0 | besides, shouldn't Requires: meego-lsb be actually part of the default buildroot? |
20:20.10 | lcuk | thiago_home, all im saying is its technically feasible to do native compilation, it may be impractical in the qt sense |
20:20.14 | thiago_home | lcuk: it's targetting the low power market |
20:20.27 | Jaffa | lbt: Yeah, I think you're right. Probably. |
20:20.29 | th0br0 | You can split buildrequires to multiple lines to facilitate readability |
20:20.29 | lbt | th0br0: mmm |
20:20.30 | thiago_home | lcuk: sure, technically it is feasible. |
20:20.44 | thiago_home | lcuk: my whole point was practicality. It's a lot more practical to cross-compile and deploy. |
20:20.52 | th0br0 | you forgot to remove the group in %postun lbt |
20:20.53 | lcuk | thiago_home, ifa cluster of arm chips can fit 100x more chips in a cabinet because of their power profile then its feasible |
20:20.59 | lbt | th0br0: not me :) |
20:21.06 | Jaffa | lbt: But then we'll want the app SDK to spit out something which can be submitted to the community OBS |
20:21.10 | thiago_home | lcuk: the office next to mine is the S60 Test Lab |
20:21.13 | lbt | th0br0: actually I admit, I've barely read it |
20:21.15 | lcuk | :D |
20:21.21 | lbt | Jaffa: *nod* |
20:21.28 | Stskeeps | so, who's up for making a emacs based handset UX since we won't have one for n900? ;) |
20:21.29 | thiago_home | lcuk: there are about 50 N97s, 5800, N86 and N95 in there |
20:21.30 | lbt | Jaffa: and we get osc build too |
20:21.37 | lbt | Stskeeps: woo hoo |
20:21.39 | Stskeeps | (until it's out) |
20:21.42 | thiago_home | lcuk: they had to install an extra A/C |
20:21.49 | th0br0 | ok |
20:21.53 | lbt | Stskeeps: see org-mode! |
20:21.59 | thiago_home | it's noisy inside |
20:22.01 | *** join/#meego InformatiQ (~rhanna@a91-154-124-224.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
20:22.03 | Jaffa | lbt: *nod* - but remembering app SDK runs on more than Linux :) |
20:22.14 | Jaffa | Stskeeps: Eclipse UX ;) |
20:22.15 | thiago_home | though, truth be told, the noise and heat come from the base cradles and the routers |
20:22.28 | lbt | th0br0: please feel free to edit the page/discussion page |
20:22.38 | *** join/#meego InformatiQ (~rhanna@unaffiliated/ramezhanna) |
20:22.38 | lbt | Jaffa: yes, so does osc :) |
20:22.41 | lcuk | heh thiago_home |
20:22.47 | lbt | o/ InformatiQ |
20:22.52 | th0br0 | lbt: will you be around tomorrow? |
20:23.05 | Jaffa | Stskeeps: Eclipse Clearly Leads In People Superceding Emacs |
20:23.05 | lbt | yes.. ping me to get my attention |
20:23.19 | th0br0 | ok. i'll try to give the page some love too |
20:23.26 | Jaffa | lbt: ah, cool. Last time I asked the response was less.... positive |
20:23.40 | lbt | Jaffa: Eclipse. emacs for the 23rd century... |
20:23.49 | Jaffa | lbt: zactly :) |
20:24.03 | lbt | ie you need to wait that long for CPUs to run it in real time! |
20:24.25 | thiago_home | does Eclipse still have a button to run the garbage collector? |
20:24.46 | Jaffa | thiago_home: No, that's always been a third-party plugin |
20:24.47 | lbt | is convinced java is a black-ops project by Kingston |
20:25.21 | Jaffa | thiago_home: which I've never had need for, but some of my colleagues like it for its provision of a memory monitor |
20:25.25 | thiago_home | lcuk: like "humans were invented by water to transport it uphill" ? |
20:25.42 | RST38h | ! |
20:25.50 | RST38h | thiago: bsd fortune cookie db? |
20:26.00 | th0br0 | by kingston? huh? |
20:26.09 | *** join/#meego CosmoHill (~Nate@dyn-62-56-60-21.dslaccess.co.uk) |
20:26.10 | lbt | they make memory... |
20:26.11 | Jaffa | th0br0: Memory manufacturer |
20:26.17 | th0br0 | ah huh... :D |
20:26.43 | CosmoHill | didn't fall asleep >.> |
20:27.06 | Jaffa | Someone asked today if our product would run, in production, on a 1GHz Celeron with 18MB of RAM. "No" was the short answer. |
20:27.22 | Jaffa | Ha, er, s/18/128/ |
20:27.56 | th0br0 | just who still uses such old systems in production |
20:27.57 | lcuk | thats high spec! |
20:28.30 | vgrade | The relase has been branched and is being matured now (qgil, 19:50:30), anyone have a link? |
20:28.31 | Jaffa | th0br0: Noone, it was a new grad employee looking foolish :) |
20:28.35 | RST38h | Jaffa: written in java? =) |
20:28.37 | th0br0 | ah ok |
20:28.51 | Jaffa | RST38h: Indeed |
20:29.02 | RST38h | Jaffa: well...you know... |
20:29.12 | th0br0 | Java rocks! |
20:29.16 | lbt | yeah, grads... |
20:29.17 | Jaffa | th0br0: Trying to impress with his knowledge of CPU types or something |
20:29.20 | th0br0 | Isn't that what you wanted to say, RST38h? ;) |
20:29.24 | Jaffa | RST38h: Shush you. |
20:29.42 | lbt | hugs java |
20:29.46 | lbt | tightly |
20:29.50 | lbt | very very tightly |
20:29.50 | RST38h | necrophile |
20:29.51 | lcuk | drinks java |
20:29.57 | th0br0 | RST38h: not at all. |
20:30.14 | Stskeeps | glances at minutes |
20:30.17 | lcuk | lbt - round the neck? |
20:30.20 | Stskeeps | 'director of nokia meego' |
20:30.29 | Stskeeps | is that meego devices or what does that mean? :P |
20:30.42 | RST38h | Stskeeps: "owner" would sound cooler |
20:30.43 | lbt | I saw that Stskeeps... ain't irc conversation.... persistent |
20:30.50 | *** join/#meego nsuffys (~sabayon5@93.12.206.90) |
20:30.51 | lcuk | it means a guy called meego is now director of nokia |
20:30.54 | RST38h | (I know we cannot wish for "emperor") |
20:30.56 | Jaffa | Stskeeps: Presumably th former. Otherwwise: game over. |
20:31.27 | Jaffa | lbt: could be worse, could be trying to be a cross-platform, web-based product ISV with C++ |
20:31.47 | lbt | yeah. that'd never work! |
20:32.15 | lcuk | what about those suckers that built kernels and things in .. c ? |
20:32.15 | lbt | not unless you had a mobile phone sugar daddy |
20:32.39 | lcuk | surely it wouldv been better in java :D |
20:32.48 | Jaffa | lcuk: perhaps different technologies are better suited to different tasks? |
20:32.56 | lbt | (there (is (only) (one) true) way) |
20:32.58 | lcuk | indeed |
20:33.13 | *** join/#meego andrei_ (~andrei108@193.226.40.134) |
20:33.14 | lcuk | perl for web apps |
20:33.40 | Jaffa | lbt: There'll probably be a port of DUI to JavaScript output. GWT for Qt <shudder/> |
20:33.46 | suihkulokki | remembers the days when sun was boldly claiming how every bulb will have a ip address and run on picojava... |
20:34.03 | Jaffa | lcuk: Perl's the exception. It's perfect for everything. |
20:34.12 | suihkulokki | except reading? |
20:34.16 | Jaffa | suihkulokki: LightFactory? |
20:34.21 | th0br0 | Perl is outdated. |
20:34.25 | Jaffa | suihkulokki: Well, yes :) |
20:34.25 | Stskeeps | write once, cry everywhere |
20:34.27 | lbt | perl6 man!! |
20:34.32 | th0br0 | C++ for webapps! Wt++! |
20:34.35 | lcuk | and demonstrating your fact jaffa, i compiled your comment up and its a working xml processor! |
20:34.39 | th0br0 | (wihtout the ++ after Wt tho) |
20:35.01 | th0br0 | http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt |
20:35.03 | th0br0 | ;) |
20:35.27 | lbt | Jaffa: so... mud on an OBS... |
20:35.34 | lbt | how does that work then? |
20:35.54 | lbt | is it just about declaring a repo that is "meegoplus" |
20:35.59 | Jaffa | lbt: On N900 so dodgy West Coast Main Line data |
20:36.13 | lbt | and bunging a load of libraries+apps in there |
20:36.31 | lbt | ah, commuting? |
20:36.48 | slaine | What's wrong with C you guys |
20:36.48 | Jaffa | lbt: can the repo have a pre-processor? "mud" would then munge whatever it got in with some heuristics |
20:37.01 | Jaffa | lbt: yeah, late nights for next 3 months or so. |
20:37.20 | lbt | I'm thinking that we should focus on a repo and some policy first |
20:37.37 | lbt | with a strong eye to automating it with mud l8r |
20:38.02 | lbt | I'm also writing an event system for nokia OBS/QA systems |
20:38.08 | Jaffa | lbt: absolutely, you mentioned mus ;) |
20:38.17 | Jaffa | bah. sodding keyboard |
20:38.28 | lbt | well, just keeping you keen :) |
20:39.01 | bfree | Intel state the z6xx (Moorestown) will support Meego so does anyone know if that means they are going to produce a Free "driver" for the powerVR based gma600? |
20:39.28 | th0br0 | right, I'm really out now. bye. Jaffa I'd prefer to have a MeeGo MUD :) |
20:39.28 | Jaffa | lbt: there are loads of comments on meego-* about providing h/w for repos etc. Didn't Mer use OpenSuSE's? What's the story there? |
20:39.41 | lbt | we want our own IMHO |
20:39.51 | lbt | we'd integrate with SSO |
20:40.00 | th0br0 | (where MUD == "Multi User Dungeon") ;) /me signs off. |
20:40.01 | lbt | automate promotion like the autobuilder |
20:40.02 | Jaffa | th0br0: You have encountered a tmo troll waving a 770 at you. You have: no tea. |
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20:40.36 | lbt | plus the opensuse OBS is heavily used....ie slow |
20:40.45 | Jaffa | lbt: Thought: EC2 or similar for scalability |
20:40.54 | lbt | heh... I have an AWS account |
20:41.00 | lbt | I'm working on it :) |
20:41.12 | Jaffa | lbt: :) |
20:41.17 | lbt | worried about security though |
20:41.37 | lbt | we can't create a VM inside an EC2 VM |
20:41.42 | Jaffa | lbt: They're doing VPN stuff now, AFAIK |
20:41.44 | *** join/#meego andrei1089 (~andrei108@81.18.92.10) |
20:41.46 | InformatiQ | i hear the N word |
20:41.49 | *** join/#meego fatal__ (~fatal@97-126-212-167.slkc.qwest.net) |
20:41.51 | lbt | and chroot is escapable.... |
20:41.55 | InformatiQ | dragged in mud |
20:41.57 | lbt | hey InformatiQ... yes indeed |
20:42.00 | InformatiQ | have respect |
20:42.10 | Jaffa | lbt: Some h/w as core & master - then spawning EC2 instances when demand is high |
20:42.33 | InformatiQ | now EC2 |
20:42.34 | lbt | the problem is that the EC2 systems would run user-provided stuff as root |
20:42.41 | InformatiQ | some one breif me in |
20:42.48 | Jaffa | lbt: Ah. |
20:42.58 | lbt | InformatiQ: possibly scaling the OBS using EC2 workers... |
20:43.02 | *** part/#meego RhymeswAlbert (~chatzilla@h31.50.220.74.static.ip.windstream.net) |
20:43.03 | lbt | I've been looking at it |
20:43.20 | lbt | Jaffa: yes... ah |
20:43.26 | InformatiQ | hmmm not bad |
20:43.29 | Jaffa | lbt: sbox uses chroot ultimately, we don't worry about escapage on Maemo autobuilder |
20:43.38 | Jaffa | (o we?) |
20:43.39 | InformatiQ | on demand workers in cases of high load |
20:43.41 | InformatiQ | pas as you go |
20:43.41 | lbt | Jaffa: stakes are higher |
20:43.46 | lbt | InformatiQ: *nod* |
20:43.51 | Jaffa | lbt: true |
20:43.58 | Jaffa | InformatiQ: exactly |
20:44.19 | Jaffa | Reduces capital expenditure for community repo too, especially at start |
20:44.31 | Jaffa | Easier sell to sponsors |
20:45.42 | InformatiQ | and what is mud? |
20:45.43 | lbt | it would be an interesting thing to make work... |
20:47.15 | Jaffa | InformatiQ: http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org - makes it easier to create Debian packages for Maemo from upstreams (e.g. tarballs, svn etc.) without upstream having Debian packaging support |
20:48.24 | Jaffa | InformatiQ: And without maintaining a whole copy of upstream just to add that, especially when most of it is machine creatable. |
20:48.46 | InformatiQ | sounds interesting but depends on the implementation |
20:49.12 | lbt | Jaffa: this is one reason I'd like us to adopt a policy of "when in doubt, Suse/Fedora/... is upstream" |
20:49.32 | Jaffa | InformatiQ: I'd point you to my vim & vala packages in MUD if I wasn't on a slow, laggy link |
20:50.19 | Jaffa | lbt: problem with a similarly packaged upstream is if it's base policies (dependency names, package responsibilities) aren't compatible. |
20:50.35 | lbt | *exactly* |
20:50.40 | Jaffa | lbt: found that with the Debian upstream mode of mud early on |
20:50.57 | lbt | this is the reason I'm pissed that MeeGo didn't make that statement for the core |
20:51.05 | lbt | it wouldn't have hurt... |
20:51.08 | Jaffa | lbt: which is why mostly "upstream" for mud packages is real upstream |
20:51.56 | lbt | yeah, which means you still need to follow a package chain, find the upstream etc |
20:52.26 | *** join/#meego andrei_ (~andrei108@81.18.92.10) |
20:52.27 | lbt | you can't just adopt the package chain and create a -maemo1 variant :) |
20:52.59 | Jaffa | lbt: indeed |
20:53.12 | Jaffa | lbt: and it only gets worse over time :( |
20:53.37 | lbt | and it adds zero value |
20:54.17 | lbt | grinds teeth :) |
20:55.40 | lcuk | shoots lbt, my teeth are sore again |
20:55.51 | lcuk | needs a new mouth |
20:56.14 | lbt | wonders just what would be possible on a community OBS... |
20:56.26 | lbt | hmm |
20:56.56 | lcuk | lbt if i were developing at home |
20:57.04 | lcuk | how would i make a package to install/test myself |
20:57.09 | lcuk | does everything need to go through obs |
20:57.13 | CosmoHill | http://xkcd.com/ |
20:57.16 | CosmoHill | lol! |
20:57.24 | lbt | I think your dad did that lcuk |
20:57.40 | lcuk | groan |
20:58.20 | lbt | you mean for the OBS |
20:58.37 | lbt | you know you were talking chroots earlier |
20:58.39 | lcuk | i mean, if im developing appXYZ |
20:58.44 | lcuk | and i want to test it on my device |
20:58.53 | lbt | hmmm |
20:58.57 | lcuk | currently i dpkg_buildpackage and jobs done i copy .deb and install |
20:59.13 | lbt | rpmbuild |
20:59.17 | lcuk | (assuming scratchbox style) |
20:59.20 | InformatiQ | lcuk: should be the same with osc build |
20:59.36 | lbt | write a tarball, specfile, run rpmbuild and you get an rpm |
21:00.00 | lcuk | ok, and that rpmbuild is the central core function that all of OBS is built around? |
21:00.01 | InformatiQ | lbt: has to be in a meego chroot |
21:00.14 | lbt | lcuk: kinda |
21:00.21 | *** join/#meego andrei1089 (~andrei108@81.18.92.10) |
21:00.24 | lcuk | does it have protection against being run outside a chroot |
21:00.29 | lbt | obs is built around "a command" |
21:00.37 | CosmoHill | crap, it"s eletrion day tomorrow |
21:00.43 | lcuk | so OBS can be used to build .debs? |
21:00.45 | lbt | which can be rpmbuild or dpkg-buildpkg |
21:00.53 | *** part/#meego DawnFoster (~Adium@134.134.139.72) |
21:01.04 | lbt | around the outside of that command it creates a chroot |
21:01.19 | lbt | and it looks at your build-deps to decide what to put in the chroot |
21:01.41 | lbt | all of which is done using the "build" command |
21:02.03 | lbt | now the OBS *service* runs the build command for you on a big compile farm |
21:02.37 | lbt | and (thiago_home are you listening) the OBS command "osc build" runs the self-same build command on your home machine |
21:02.57 | lbt | so the build-service and your home machine run the same code.... guaranteed |
21:03.19 | lbt | and that chroot even contains the toolchain |
21:03.43 | lbt | yes? |
21:03.52 | lcuk | sounds reasonable |
21:04.02 | lcuk | but how does it know to build that package for 5 different arches |
21:04.29 | lbt | for arch in arch1 arch2.... ; do osc build <arch>; done |
21:04.29 | lcuk | win/lin32/lin64/mac/armel etc |
21:04.35 | lcuk | ok |
21:04.43 | lbt | ah, careful |
21:04.48 | lcuk | so machines in the cluster wont be specifialised for arch |
21:04.49 | lbt | they're OSes, not arches |
21:04.59 | lcuk | theres a difference? |
21:05.02 | lbt | well, a mix actually |
21:05.07 | lbt | yes. |
21:05.09 | lcuk | targets |
21:05.33 | *** join/#meego jrocha (~JRocha@174.25.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com) |
21:05.47 | lbt | you can have debian lenny on 64/32/arm5/arm7/ppc/sparc.... |
21:05.58 | lcuk | yes but the same binary wont work in each |
21:06.06 | lbt | or ubuntu/fedora/win32 on each of the same arches |
21:06.15 | lcuk | so targets is a better name but can encompas multiple flavours of silicon |
21:06.31 | lbt | yes |
21:06.43 | lbt | OBS has target+arch |
21:06.56 | lbt | so debian_lenny/i586 |
21:07.11 | lbt | or meego_1.0/armv5el |
21:07.17 | lcuk | ok, so a general app which was being written to run anywhere - nothing special, "make all" should build generically |
21:07.31 | lbt | no |
21:07.33 | lcuk | hello world in native c with simple defines for instance |
21:07.57 | lbt | on windows make install goes to c:\some crappy\ path |
21:08.01 | lcuk | will every app have to explicitely specify its targets+archs? |
21:08.14 | lcuk | ahh ok understood |
21:08.17 | lbt | autotools solves that |
21:08.24 | lbt | for sane systems |
21:08.25 | lcuk | but we havent got autotools |
21:08.33 | lcuk | or so i heard |
21:08.34 | lbt | ie all versions of linux that matter |
21:08.38 | lbt | Meego has |
21:08.48 | lbt | meego is a strong autotools distro |
21:08.53 | lcuk | wasnt timeless having trouble getting it working? |
21:08.53 | lbt | AFAIUI |
21:08.58 | lbt | heh... |
21:09.00 | slaine | I tried to follow the moblin guide on how to use 'build' to make native packages, but it never really worked out |
21:09.19 | slaine | that was mostly due to packaging issues |
21:09.22 | lbt | slaine: wait until we have an OBS... the SDK will fade into obscurity |
21:09.44 | slaine | lbt, well, more thinking about me, on my local setup |
21:09.50 | lcuk | there will always be a need for bedroom coders to build natively without running through obs? |
21:10.03 | lbt | lcuk: no |
21:10.11 | slaine | is coding in his bedroom right now |
21:10.42 | lbt | sure, but that's like saying there's always a need to be able to code in asm |
21:10.47 | lcuk | turns off slaine's light - its way past your bedtime and its a schoolnight |
21:10.54 | thiago_home | goes to bed |
21:11.18 | InformatiQ | lcuk: i agree to an extent |
21:11.21 | lcuk | lbt - theres not a lot of need to code in it, but you can be damn sure it needs to be compilable |
21:11.26 | InformatiQ | but then the rpm tools are there |
21:11.31 | lbt | well, for some situations... but 99.999999% of the time... not really. it's just machismo |
21:11.43 | slaine | lcuk, kids are in bed, it's the only time I'll get today to do something productive (was in meetings all day, no coding :( ) |
21:11.49 | InformatiQ | get a meego image use rpmbuild |
21:11.54 | InformatiQ | run it in kvm |
21:11.57 | InformatiQ | build inside |
21:12.12 | lcuk | kvm? |
21:12.16 | slaine | InformatiQ: that unfortunately doesn't work |
21:12.29 | InformatiQ | slaine: why not? |
21:12.30 | slaine | I tried exactly that for rebuilding the moblin source rpms |
21:12.35 | lcuk | arent virtual machines and systems within systems slower in general? |
21:12.37 | slaine | InformatiQ: Poor packaging |
21:12.55 | InformatiQ | slaine: that was which ver of moblin? |
21:12.58 | lbt | lcuk: do you overclock to get the extra 4%? |
21:13.04 | slaine | 2.0 and 2.1 |
21:13.17 | slaine | lbt: he runs gentoo also :) |
21:13.25 | InformatiQ | slaine: do u remember what sort of issues? |
21:13.32 | lcuk | lbt was always hard work cross compiling maemo apps within scratchbox within vmware |
21:13.38 | lcuk | on windows |
21:13.38 | slaine | it's all in the mail archive |
21:13.52 | lbt | lcuk: I was going to say "then you won't notice the virtual machine slowdown" |
21:13.55 | lcuk | that was what led me towards native building and speedups |
21:13.59 | lbt | but for that... |
21:14.09 | InformatiQ | well, i'll give it a try defenitely this week |
21:14.20 | lbt | but even so... you lose more time than you save |
21:14.24 | slaine | I was promised it would be sorted for moblin 2.2 |
21:14.35 | lcuk | lbt, sure within vmware native compiling ubuntu apps within the VM were reasonable |
21:14.40 | InformatiQ | but if it can be built in obs (which would create a chroot of meego rpms) then it should work in kvm image |
21:14.47 | lcuk | and i didnt for my small light apps |
21:14.53 | lcuk | but thats historical |
21:14.53 | InformatiQ | well meego is even better than 2.2 |
21:14.57 | InformatiQ | :) |
21:15.09 | InformatiQ | it has the best of both worlds |
21:15.20 | slaine | InformatiQ: that was the theory. I setup the build as per the instructions on the site and it still failed on those packages |
21:15.42 | slaine | I was told the packaging had been fixed for 2.2, but, as you said, 2.2 got delaye/reworked into meego 1.0 |
21:16.17 | InformatiQ | i would expect this issue to have been fixed |
21:16.55 | slaine | the reason I was rebuilding everything was to have a generic x86 version of moblin that would run on non-ssse3 x86 cpu's |
21:17.17 | lcuk | AND IT WOULD ALSO RUN ON ONES WITH SSSE3 TOO |
21:17.24 | lcuk | -caps |
21:17.37 | lcuk | just a bit less optimal |
21:17.48 | lbt | lcuk: PLEASE USE CAPS WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE SSSE3 CLUSTERFCKUP |
21:18.12 | lcuk | OK |
21:18.19 | lbt | that's just intel being bloodyminded if you ask me :) |
21:19.14 | lcuk | indeed - especially considering excuse being graphics speedups - the lower spec machines are normally lower resolution thereby negating the boost |
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21:22.29 | *** part/#meego pkt (~pradeeptk@192.100.104.17) |
21:23.46 | slaine | I've been tempted to ask for some metrics that proved ssse3 improved real world performance on typical netbook hardware. |
21:24.23 | thiago_home | well, start by not using the 8087 FP instructions |
21:24.39 | thiago_home | that's a complete ABI change though |
21:25.13 | slaine | With all the repackaged versions of Moblin UI for fedora spins, ubuntu, opensuse, mandrake etc. you can run the Moblin UX on all sorts of hardware |
21:25.16 | slaine | and it's usable |
21:26.18 | lcuk | thiago_home, as lbt said, asm isnt routinely used now and people have obviously rebuilt the stack to systems without it |
21:26.23 | lcuk | as slaine says |
21:26.41 | slaine | manages about 17000 machines that are either Via 1Ghz CLE266 boxes or Intel ULV Celeron with 855GM) |
21:26.48 | thiago_home | so if we switch PR1.2 to -mfloat-abi=hard, no one will care? |
21:28.00 | lcuk | thiago_home, inverse: i would jump at the chance to run through all of maemo through the n8x0 spec builders |
21:28.37 | thiago_home | so have separate builds? |
21:28.46 | thiago_home | or run OMAP2-optimised software on the N900? |
21:28.55 | lcuk | i do |
21:29.04 | thiago_home | sorry, let me rephrase |
21:29.07 | thiago_home | which one are you proposing? |
21:29.09 | lcuk | its reasonably recently i upgraded my scratchbox to fremantle |
21:29.15 | lcuk | i used diablo for all my compiling |
21:29.29 | lcuk | never noticed a difference |
21:29.33 | *** join/#meego javispedro (~javier@Maemo/community/council/javispedro) |
21:29.48 | lcuk | apps work the same in general |
21:30.01 | thiago_home | I don't know of any differences between OMAP2 and 3, though |
21:30.14 | thiago_home | we're not using hard FP ABI anyway |
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21:31.20 | lcuk | i fail to understand why there is so much emphasis on atom specifics when intels primary concern for the last 30 years has been backwards compatability with the x86 chip |
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21:31.56 | lbt | $$ |
21:32.09 | lcuk | yeah but all that silicon and all those developers |
21:32.22 | lcuk | sure, people will continue to buy new machines |
21:32.30 | CosmoHill | grr, damn mouth |
21:32.32 | CosmoHill | mouce* |
21:32.35 | thiago_home | the Atom is a different architecture |
21:32.48 | thiago_home | yes, x86, but different from the rest |
21:33.47 | CosmoHill | it's special! |
21:33.52 | slaine | iirc, Phoronix ran some tests against Moblin 2.1 Vs Ubuntu and ubuntu came out on tope for most things |
21:34.02 | slaine | so the sse3 compile flag wasn't doing that much |
21:34.34 | CosmoHill | slaine: did you see this weeks Windows 7 vs Ubuntu 10.04 tests? |
21:35.01 | slaine | yeah, only thing that surprised me was that ubuntu performed as well as it did against windows |
21:35.23 | CosmoHill | really? |
21:35.30 | lcuk | thiago_home, wouldnt you like to run meego on your desktop instead of other things |
21:35.39 | slaine | they where game tests, and windows does games well |
21:35.53 | thiago_home | lcuk: actually, no |
21:36.02 | thiago_home | I'm not the target audience of meego |
21:36.16 | slaine | I'm interested in the other tests which show system performance better, filesystem, process management etc. |
21:36.58 | thiago_home | anyway, SSSE3 isn't going to get used by the compiler in most applications |
21:37.09 | thiago_home | the one thing that matters is SSE2 for floating point |
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21:37.49 | lcuk | slaine, so that includes everything from pentium4 upwards? |
21:37.53 | lcuk | thiago_home, sorry |
21:38.07 | lbt | agreed. having ssse3 is just enought to make sure meego won't run (or build) on non-intel hardware |
21:38.08 | CosmoHill | P4 northwood? |
21:38.19 | slaine | yes |
21:38.26 | CosmoHill | why don't we want meego on AMD? |
21:38.30 | trem | nite all, sweet dreams |
21:38.32 | slaine | we doe |
21:38.35 | CosmoHill | cyas trem |
21:38.35 | slaine | do |
21:38.41 | slaine | Intel don't |
21:39.12 | w00t_ | so, no handset ux for 1.0 |
21:39.23 | w00t_ | am I the only one feeling a bit disappointed by that? |
21:39.25 | lbt | actually the PITA isn't running MeeGo on AMD |
21:39.44 | lbt | it's that you can't develop for an Intel Atom device on an AMD desktop |
21:39.46 | w00t_ | "wait for day one", "wait for 1.0 in may", "wait for it coming Real Soon(tm)" is starting to show a bit of a pattern |
21:39.51 | CosmoHill | hehe bbc made a bobo |
21:40.05 | CosmoHill | you could hear the editor doing the count down in the background to the start and end of the news |
21:40.06 | thiago_home | lcuk: x86-to-x86 cross compiler |
21:40.20 | javispedro | uh? |
21:40.36 | thiago_home | what I said |
21:40.38 | javispedro | has x86 started diverging so much that different subarches now have their own compiler versions? |
21:40.56 | CosmoHill | ah this is true, intel and AMD are different |
21:40.57 | thiago_home | besides, the toolchain doesn't need to be compiled with SSSE3 |
21:41.06 | lbt | thiago_home: you need more... the chroot needed to run mic2 needs to be non-ssse3 |
21:41.10 | CosmoHill | but only if you use flags to compile it for one processor |
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21:41.24 | slaine | w00t_: yes, it's a tad disappointing. I'd imagine we'll see a whole raft of stuff come online between 1.0 and 1.1 |
21:41.29 | thiago_home | if it can run on Windows and Mac, why can't it run on older x86? |
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21:42.04 | thiago_home | again the distinction between application SDK and platform SDK I guess |
21:42.06 | w00t_ | slaine: *nod* |
21:42.15 | lbt | thiago_home: yes |
21:42.16 | thiago_home | the application SDK should pretty much run anywhere |
21:42.20 | javispedro | envisions application SDK requiring SSSE3 ;) |
21:42.29 | thiago_home | the platform SDK is for geeks like us |
21:42.31 | lbt | but you can't make an image to put on your device. |
21:42.33 | slaine | javispedro: For x86, it probalby will |
21:42.42 | w00t_ | slaine: it's just a bit frustrating having things held up is all, I'm looking forward to playing with it :) |
21:42.52 | slaine | aren't we all :) |
21:43.04 | javispedro | thank god I can rebuild it then :) |
21:43.35 | vgrade | The relase has been branched and is being matured now (qgil, 19:50:30), its available now |
21:43.52 | thiago_home | I really don't understand what the big deal is. I don't see anyone complaining about Neon requirement. (aside from those who want to run on N800/N810) |
21:44.00 | thiago_home | and Neon will never be supported on x86 |
21:44.06 | thiago_home | it's ARM |
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21:44.16 | CosmoHill | Neon? |
21:44.22 | thiago_home | if we can run a completely different arch, why can't we run a slightly different one? |
21:44.24 | javispedro | thiago: exactly. they are complaining! |
21:44.29 | CosmoHill | nate@blue[1014]:~ $ rpm -q neon |
21:44.29 | CosmoHill | neon-0.28.2-2.i686 |
21:44.32 | CosmoHill | that program? |
21:44.37 | thiago_home | no, ARM Neon |
21:44.41 | CosmoHill | my mistake |
21:44.57 | thiago_home | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Advanced_SIMD_.28NEON.29 |
21:45.00 | lbt | thiago_home: because, AFAIK there's no quemu for ssse3 on non-sssse3 devices |
21:45.28 | thiago_home | lbt: technical issue that can be solved |
21:45.44 | thiago_home | again, if we can emulate a completely different arch, why not one that is only slightly different? |
21:45.56 | lbt | oh, I agree |
21:46.14 | lbt | I was asking about it months ago... |
21:46.20 | lbt | zero interest. |
21:46.41 | lbt | when MeeGo goes bigger then more devs will hit it when they try to make images |
21:46.58 | thiago_home | maybe |
21:47.04 | lbt | heck, I think the community OBS uses AMD cpus... that'll be interesting |
21:47.20 | thiago_home | but my opinion is that, for a distro targetting low-powered processors, we should be squeezing the most out of performance |
21:47.47 | javispedro | thiago: agreed with that. now, development tools, on the other side... |
21:47.59 | thiago_home | javispedro: application SDK vs platform SDK. |
21:48.00 | lbt | that's not the point... the point is that there's no mechanism for non-Intel desktop owners to engage |
21:48.05 | thiago_home | the application SDK has to run pretty much everywhere. |
21:48.14 | thiago_home | I've been telling so to everyone who wants to listen. |
21:48.39 | javispedro | thiago: both are development tools; why I'd need to create platform images from the target device? |
21:48.44 | thiago_home | the platform SDK is a nother matter. Especially for bootstrapping and creating images, and make world. |
21:48.44 | javispedro | platform SDK also needs to run everywhere. |
21:48.46 | w00t_ | (evening, thiago_home + lbt and others) |
21:49.06 | lbt | :) |
21:49.28 | slaine | thiago_home: one of the biggest headaches in moblin, as a community member, was the almost daily questions of "can I run moblin on this ?....Why not, it's intel .....That sucks" |
21:49.35 | thiago_home | anyway, we should optimise the most. And I don't think we should compromise there because some people can't run the software natively *and* there's a clear technical solution (improve qemu) |
21:49.40 | javispedro | is confused and attacks himself. |
21:50.15 | thiago_home | otherwise someone is going to come and say we can't have atomic instructions on x86 because someone is still using a 386 |
21:50.33 | thiago_home | (moot point, of course, Qt doesn't run on 386) |
21:50.45 | w00t_ | thiago_home: it doesn't? we must fix this! |
21:50.50 | microlith | so therefore AMD users should upgrade? |
21:51.01 | thiago_home | w00t_: it requires at least one 486 instructin |
21:51.10 | thiago_home | microlith: no, they should fix qemu |
21:51.15 | w00t_ | I'm just kidding, don't let me sidetrack the conversation |
21:52.06 | javispedro | thiago: nobody is going to emulate its compiler; we've been through this already (scratchbox) |
21:52.17 | thiago_home | I'm not talking about emulating compilers |
21:52.33 | thiago_home | compilers have to be compiled for all major archs |
21:52.38 | javispedro | then why you mention platform SDK vs application SDK? both should be native. |
21:52.41 | thiago_home | they have to be compiled for Windows and Mac too |
21:52.44 | javispedro | both should generate non-native binaries. |
21:52.59 | thiago_home | application SDK = cross-compiler only |
21:53.13 | thiago_home | platform SDK = cross-compiler and a lot more helper tools |
21:53.17 | javispedro | fails to see it any difference between this and the classic decade old cross compiling environment |
21:53.25 | javispedro | thiago: ah well. |
21:53.41 | thiago_home | the image-creation tool doesn't need to be in the app SDK |
21:54.49 | thiago_home | "You want to create a MeeGo-based device and launch it in the market? You can certainly invest in a couple of good machines running Linux" |
21:55.02 | thiago_home | (I'm not saying good == Intel) |
21:55.29 | thiago_home | as opposed to "You want to make some apps for MeeGo? You can use your existing laptop, running whatever environment you have already" |
21:56.04 | lcuk | you just stopped practically every single bedroom coder in one step |
21:56.16 | javispedro | yet another barrier for serious development. |
21:56.30 | thiago_home | I don't follow |
21:56.33 | w00t_ | me neither |
21:56.36 | lcuk | thats *worse* than the entry level required for maemo |
21:56.46 | lcuk | having to change machines |
21:56.48 | w00t_ | thiago's point is that a cross compiler lowers the barrier to entry |
21:56.54 | thiago_home | entry level required for maemo = Debian-based 32-bit Linux machine |
21:57.00 | thiago_home | entry level I am requesting = machine |
21:57.03 | lcuk | no its windows |
21:57.10 | javispedro | actually, machine capable of virtualization :) |
21:57.20 | thiago_home | I didn't say it had to virtualise |
21:57.24 | w00t_ | that's still a lot more hassle than most people are willing to go through |
21:57.47 | lcuk | thats the level but if they currently code apps for a platform now |
21:57.49 | thiago_home | if it can run a cross-compiler and you have a USB port, it should be enough |
21:57.53 | lcuk | for them to start coding for meego |
21:57.56 | thiago_home | heck, the SDK works without USB ports |
21:58.02 | microlith | thiago_home: for "app" development,r giht? |
21:58.06 | microlith | right* |
21:58.06 | thiago_home | you can deploy via ssh over wifi and do remote debugging |
21:58.09 | thiago_home | microlith: yes, app SDK |
21:58.18 | microlith | now who said that -I- want to only do app development? |
21:58.31 | w00t_ | if you don't want to do app development, don't use the app SDK |
21:58.38 | thiago_home | then use the platform SDK |
21:58.38 | w00t_ | nobody is forcing you to |
21:58.44 | thiago_home | above I was showing extremes |
21:58.54 | MiskaX | i have to say that visual studio is still winner when it comes to remote debugging... |
21:58.55 | javispedro | I'm not saying that a simpler more portable "madde" is worse; I am saying that this is no excuse for adding more complexity to the platform SDK (scratchbox, etc.) (requiring SSSE3 -- yuck :) ) |
21:58.59 | w00t_ | different alternatives for different people |
21:59.01 | thiago_home | right *now* you have to have SSSE3 |
21:59.16 | thiago_home | what I don't want is for the devices to have to settle for less because *you* don't have SSSE3 |
21:59.28 | thiago_home | there are other solutions, including improving qemu |
21:59.44 | w00t_ | I'm in two minds really |
22:00.00 | lcuk | improvements to qemu should be done anyway |
22:00.07 | lcuk | /are being done |
22:00.12 | slaine | why should ssse3 matter for the core os though, that's what I don't get |
22:00.16 | w00t_ | hardware (especially in some places) is not readily available, and it's one thing to say "fix qemu" and it's another to expect (potentially hobbyist) developers to do it |
22:00.31 | lcuk | w00t_, OSS apps get tidied up |
22:00.32 | thiago_home | slaine: suppose there is a 5% gain. Should we do it? |
22:00.37 | w00t_ | lcuk: i'm not denying they don't |
22:00.49 | slaine | thiago_home: quantify that with some tests please |
22:00.55 | w00t_ | lcuk: but you're barking in the wrong place, really |
22:00.56 | thiago_home | slaine: not when I say "suppose" |
22:00.58 | javispedro | supposeeee |
22:01.09 | slaine | I'm seeing figures banded about that people pull out of their you know whats, no data |
22:01.18 | thiago_home | I'm not saying there is |
22:01.20 | w00t_ | lcuk: if a new developer comes along and can't use this, and you say to him "fix qemu and then you can", there is a serious risk they'll wander off and find something else to spend his time on |
22:01.22 | thiago_home | I'm asking a hypothetical question |
22:01.25 | w00t_ | s/his/their/ |
22:01.32 | thiago_home | suppose someone did the benchmarks and calculated there's a 5% gain |
22:01.34 | thiago_home | should we do it? |
22:01.36 | slaine | sorry, issed the suppose |
22:01.39 | slaine | missed |
22:01.47 | lbt | notes that *right now* you can't develop without an ssse3 desktop. |
22:01.47 | lcuk | yeah w00t_ |
22:02.02 | lbt | and *right now* there are no shipping devices |
22:02.08 | MiskaX | btw, when it comes to simd instruction usage and such, any proper app dynamically selects generic or optimized code variant based on cpu capabilities |
22:02.17 | lbt | so *right now* there's no performance benefit to sss3 |
22:02.26 | lbt | and a huge barrier to engagement |
22:02.28 | lcuk | thiago_home, currently i am aware of a quantifiable build of libjpeg that has been improved by use of NEON - but that does not mean that libjpeg was useless before |
22:02.29 | javispedro | MiskaX: not very liked on a mobile distro. |
22:02.33 | thiago_home | MiskaX: multimedia apps do |
22:02.42 | lbt | since *right now* there is no app development for meego |
22:02.48 | thiago_home | JPEG is a case where the GPU should be used |
22:02.53 | MiskaX | thiago_home: yep, like my code |
22:02.59 | lcuk | and is where practical |
22:03.05 | MiskaX | javispedro: i don't see any reason to avoid that on mobile either |
22:03.18 | lcuk | but that doesnt mean you should rebuild the entire OS because of it |
22:03.21 | slaine | I'd love to base our products on a MeeGo foundation, I can't if there's an x86 ssse3 requirement, and I wouldn't be using the UX as it stands. |
22:03.33 | MiskaX | all those code paths should be handwritten assembly anyway and pretty tiny amount of the total code |
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22:03.49 | lcuk | with ifdefs to take care of the cases where its not |
22:03.50 | thiago_home | slaine: that's a complete different take on the subject, though |
22:04.07 | slaine | that's always been my take |
22:04.09 | thiago_home | slaine: you're saying "I want to ship products on something that is not Atom or ARM OMAP3" |
22:04.15 | slaine | yes |
22:04.40 | thiago_home | right now, and until the direction changes, Atom and OMAP3 are the base configs |
22:04.42 | javispedro | envisions MeeGo SDK with MEEGO_X86, MEEGO_X86_SSE3 and MEEGO_X86_ARMEL targets, and much like the current maemo sdk, with the shipped qemu incapable of emulating the latter two ones. |
22:04.48 | *** join/#meego t_s_o (~tso@140.84-49-128.nextgentel.com) |
22:04.53 | slaine | I'll still try once 1.0 is out and I get all the source rpms |
22:04.54 | javispedro | *SSSE3 |
22:04.57 | thiago_home | javispedro: that's probably easy to do |
22:05.04 | MiskaX | unfortunately arm is a bit lacking on cpu capability detection front, my atomic ops detection code is a bit ugly atm |
22:05.07 | slaine | hopefully the packaging issues have been expunged |
22:05.14 | thiago_home | hand-written assembly should be selectable. The rest is a flag to the compiler. |
22:05.24 | thiago_home | you don't detect the CPU in ARM |
22:05.31 | lcuk | does anybody know, would the "normal" middle of the road Pentium M without ssse3 be generally faster than the high spec atoms? |
22:05.33 | thiago_home | you *know* what processor you put in your device. |
22:05.42 | javispedro | thiago++ |
22:05.42 | slaine | lcuk: HELL YES |
22:05.56 | lcuk | so isnt the speedup point entirely moot anyway? |
22:06.04 | slaine | completely |
22:06.10 | thiago_home | lcuk: speed? yes |
22:06.15 | thiago_home | lcuk: power consumption, not by a long shot |
22:06.18 | javispedro | well, if the atom is slow, you try to get the best out of it. |
22:06.25 | MiskaX | thiago_home: that's not portable code... ;) |
22:06.29 | javispedro | so I understand the need for ssse3 if it does anything tangible. |
22:06.30 | thiago_home | the calculation is speed by watt consumed |
22:06.43 | thiago_home | MiskaX: ARM doesn't care about portable code. Or hasn't until now. |
22:06.52 | lcuk | thiago_home, my intel Pentium M based 12" touchscreen tablet works really well |
22:07.08 | javispedro | MiskaX: we're not necessarily talking about a single hotspot written in ASM. Think entire programs build for different FP architectures. |
22:07.10 | lcuk | i even run it at 600mhz powersave mode :D |
22:07.13 | MiskaX | thiago_home: just as an example, try to build binary which runs optimally on OMAP2 _and_ OMAP3 |
22:07.35 | lcuk | MiskaX, i barely noticed the difference |
22:07.36 | thiago_home | MiskaX: what's your point, that it's very hard? |
22:07.42 | slaine | lcuk, We've the same cpu's in our gear |
22:07.59 | lcuk | i just build with -O2 and didnt upgrade scratchbox from diablo for ages |
22:08.27 | javispedro | lcuk: then don't upgrade cause the fremantle compiler is slight slower :) |
22:08.31 | javispedro | *slightly |
22:08.32 | MiskaX | lcuk: the difference is quite huge in certain cases |
22:08.35 | lcuk | too late i needed to |
22:08.58 | MiskaX | javispedro: vtables for high level functions built for two fp archs |
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22:09.12 | javispedro | MiskaX: WHAT? |
22:09.22 | javispedro | and call that optimized? |
22:09.29 | MiskaX | i'm doing that already on my dsp library for x86 |
22:09.41 | javispedro | you expect to do that manually for every application in existence? |
22:09.46 | MiskaX | sse2, sse3, e3dnow, etc. |
22:09.47 | lcuk | are most of us in agreement then that for most cases theres no real technical reason to require ssse3 ? |
22:09.57 | thiago_home | in most cases there isn't |
22:10.06 | lcuk | MiskaX, is special |
22:10.14 | thiago_home | at least, looking at the SSSE3 instructions, I can't understand why |
22:10.15 | lcuk | but he doesnt have to build entire OS |
22:10.16 | MiskaX | javispedro: no, i use c++ capabilities for that ;) |
22:10.19 | thiago_home | nothing groundbreaking there |
22:10.29 | lbt | and currently the only thing ssse3 does is stop people from developing for meego? |
22:10.36 | thiago_home | I've seen gcc use SSE on its own, but no clue what level it was |
22:11.02 | thiago_home | the one ABI issue I've seen is the FP one |
22:11.10 | thiago_home | but that doesn't require SSSE3 AFAIK |
22:11.14 | lcuk | and thats entirely reasonable thiago_home |
22:11.18 | slaine | well, supposedly, ssse3 offers a large performance improvement in FP code over sse2 |
22:11.38 | lcuk | its been proven since early days that FP improvements work well |
22:11.51 | thiago_home | especially in graphics |
22:11.52 | slaine | but the majority of the system isn't being held back by FP performance |
22:11.55 | lcuk | slaine, but we arent saying FP is going to be emulated etc |
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22:12.15 | MiskaX | all compilers are still bad on optimizing things like iir biquad code |
22:12.23 | thiago_home | a few % makes a the difference between 30fps and 60fps |
22:12.31 | lcuk | of course |
22:12.36 | slaine | that's 100% surely |
22:12.38 | thiago_home | if you miss the 60fps mark, you have to settle for 30 to avoid tearing |
22:12.48 | lcuk | surely not! |
22:13.05 | slaine | how does that affect my mke2fs program though ? |
22:13.11 | lcuk | if you can transfer the data in <1/60th of a second |
22:13.17 | lcuk | tearing is a completely different problem |
22:13.25 | lcuk | COMPLETELY |
22:13.35 | thiago_home | lcuk: if you can't calculate and draw your frame in 16 ms, you've lost |
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22:13.43 | thiago_home | then you might as well take 33 |
22:13.52 | slaine | look, we're not talking about writing games |
22:13.57 | thiago_home | nor am I |
22:13.58 | javispedro | what? |
22:14.00 | thiago_home | I'm talking about UIs |
22:14.04 | thiago_home | scrolling, for example |
22:14.07 | javispedro | all is about games! |
22:14.12 | javispedro | what does the iphone has -- games. |
22:14.16 | lcuk | thiago_home, i know all about fluid uis |
22:14.17 | thiago_home | I'm pretty sure you do scrolling |
22:14.17 | w00t_ | scrolling is *important*. |
22:14.20 | CosmoHill | AH AH Ah dead leg |
22:14.23 | MiskaX | just separate class implementations into different source files, use virtual base class and use a runtime-detection factory method to construct the correct specialiced instance |
22:14.28 | javispedro | what do people want to do with their underpowered netbooks -- games. |
22:14.47 | w00t_ | it makes the difference between a beautiful UI experience and a trainwreck |
22:15.00 | lcuk | if tearing is a framerate issue, 60fps would be MORE susceptable than 30 |
22:15.13 | MiskaX | ...different source files can be built with different options... |
22:15.21 | thiago_home | lcuk: my point is that 58 fps has tearing |
22:15.22 | lcuk | tearing is refreshing the screen itself with some of the old and some of the new |
22:15.35 | thiago_home | yes, 60fps is more susceptible |
22:15.40 | lcuk | tearing is because you havent transfered all the data across |
22:15.41 | slaine | this is all theory though of course. the fact is that clutter et al work incredibly well on pretty old and underpowered systems so long as the hardware accelerated rendering works |
22:15.43 | thiago_home | all the more reason to gain even 1% everywhere |
22:15.56 | lcuk | the tearing is 100% system transfer bus speed |
22:16.06 | lcuk | and also whether theres buffers on the lcd side |
22:16.18 | lcuk | you can have tearing on a 1fps system |
22:16.27 | thiago_home | but no one wants a 1fps system |
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22:16.42 | thiago_home | I think the Nexus One feels horrible at 15 fps |
22:16.47 | javispedro | tearing eink-based ebook readers!! ohnoes!! |
22:16.52 | lcuk | but you asserted if you cannot have 60fps you have to drop to 30 |
22:16.54 | lcuk | thats silly |
22:17.11 | thiago_home | lcuk: yes. But the point is that we want 60 fps. |
22:17.15 | lcuk | javispedro, shush i actually considered how to render to those once :p |
22:17.19 | lcuk | of course thiago_home |
22:17.23 | thiago_home | and to have 60fps, we need to get all the optimisations we can get |
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22:17.30 | thiago_home | in graphics, were FP performance does matter. |
22:17.38 | lcuk | but even the highest spec graphics cards pumping out the highest visuals drop under 60fps sometimes |
22:17.54 | thiago_home | yes they do |
22:17.58 | javispedro | and clearly, the ability to "take two registers, concatenate their values, and pull out a register-length section from an offset given by an immediate value encoded in the instruction" is going to help us reach the 60fps mark. |
22:18.02 | thiago_home | but it shouldn't be because your graphics backend is slow |
22:18.09 | thiago_home | it should be because the CPU is busy doing something important |
22:18.10 | lcuk | how freeedrich| quently depends on how optimized the graphics drivers are |
22:18.47 | lcuk | if ssse3 makes such a difference to those then they will be built with it anyway - we are expecting blobs to be from there |
22:18.49 | lcuk | anyway |
22:18.54 | MiskaX | lcuk: i would compare this with audio playback. you can make audio software which never has dropouts. if you cannot keep up with audio frame rate, you have broken audio. same goes for certain graphics too |
22:19.35 | MiskaX | realtime systems - my turf... |
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22:19.46 | lcuk | MiskaX, sure i see graphical glitches every single day |
22:19.46 | javispedro | hey, at least PSHUFB is useful. |
22:19.59 | javispedro | has at least once wished for it. |
22:20.03 | thiago_home | anyway, to summarise what I am saying: there are solutions to allowing people to develop without having a Core2 that don't imply reducing the optimisation on devices |
22:20.06 | MiskaX | if you car's abs breaks decided to hang for a second you can have a fatal crash |
22:20.23 | MiskaX | lcuk: that's called bad software |
22:20.38 | lcuk | MiskaX, sometimes caused by hardware |
22:20.49 | MiskaX | that's bad hadrware design then |
22:20.55 | lcuk | and long historical pipelines |
22:21.10 | MiskaX | running deterministic software on deterministic hardware is deterministic system |
22:21.53 | lcuk | ? |
22:22.19 | MiskaX | it's pretty rare that even a cheap DVD player would not keep up with DVD framerate for the entire length of a movies |
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22:22.55 | lcuk | sure - because they purchased a single use chip that was designed to do that |
22:23.22 | MiskaX | that's usually a CPU+GPU+software. i used to work on set-top-boxes... |
22:23.24 | lcuk | but if i buy a dvd drive and plug it into my computer with software it can only do the best it can |
22:23.35 | MiskaX | (recording DVB-boxes) |
22:23.48 | lcuk | and all the media players include support for dropping frames and other things |
22:23.59 | lcuk | its like gaming: you have options to control quality settings |
22:24.23 | MiskaX | that's why pc gaming is failing :) |
22:24.27 | javispedro | ponders what happened to the "why are development tools built for ssse3" story. |
22:24.34 | lcuk | i can happily run the same games on a low spec graphics card as a high spec one |
22:24.40 | w00t_ | javispedro: welcome to IRC, enjoy your stay |
22:24.42 | lcuk | i just turn the resolution down and tweak the polygon count |
22:25.12 | MiskaX | or you buy xbox360 and have exactly pre-defined experience without any adjustments |
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22:25.48 | javispedro | actually, nobody can do a thing about it so let's just forget about it hoping that amd grabs ssse3 before the meego judgement day |
22:26.16 | MiskaX | since i've been doing audio software for ages, i find it so funny that graphics people find it hard to keep up with performance spec. |
22:26.21 | lcuk | or someone sets up a build server to drag in and redo things as the moblin remixes have shown is possible |
22:26.39 | MiskaX | i can do several hour long recording over and over again without glitches :) |
22:26.47 | lcuk | audio consists of maximum 5 pixels |
22:26.49 | lcuk | ;) |
22:27.00 | javispedro | lcuk: indeed. hopefully one of the benefits of meego -- that you can redo it easily. |
22:27.09 | MiskaX | well, 64 channels, 192 khz, 32-bit |
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22:27.46 | lcuk | jesus audio is 32bit now? |
22:27.47 | MiskaX | that's 46.8 MB/s + all the heavy DSP processing in realtime for that |
22:28.24 | MiskaX | just for practical reasons, 24-bit samples are carried in 32-bit words (dma alignment on bus) |
22:28.40 | lcuk | can people tell the difference between 16 and 24/32 bit? |
22:28.59 | MiskaX | i can pump up the cpu load to constant 80% and no glitches |
22:29.18 | lcuk | leaving 20% for the graphics \@/ |
22:29.22 | lcuk | you bastard :p |
22:29.28 | MiskaX | sure, especially if you put some 40 dB digital gain |
22:29.50 | thiago_home | the difference between 16- and 24-bit samples is the noise level |
22:30.09 | thiago_home | if you're doing audio work, each operation adds to the noise |
22:30.21 | thiago_home | the extra 8 bits mean the end result has less noise than otherwise |
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22:31.12 | lcuk | nod, that does sound reasonable |
22:31.13 | MiskaX | normalized mixing of two channels ((c1 + c2) >> 1) - 1 bit lost already |
22:31.29 | thiago_home | or 3dB increase in noise |
22:33.47 | MiskaX | anyway, i fully agree about optimization and fps, but i still tend to think that for most part code can autoselect hardware dependent optimization paths, either by autoselecting .so on-fly or by doing similar inline |
22:34.22 | MiskaX | and helloworld doesn't have to require simd ;) |
22:34.29 | thiago_home | MiskaX: it does |
22:35.06 | MiskaX | for rest of the performance, it's about correctly utilizing kernel scheduler |
22:35.41 | MiskaX | EDF scheduling for graphics and audio, anyone? ;) |
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22:36.16 | thiago_home | http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qstring.cpp#line3722 |
22:36.24 | thiago_home | this has nothing to do with graphics or audio |
22:36.27 | thiago_home | but uses SIMD anyway |
22:36.56 | MiskaX | sure, but specifically those can autoselect |
22:37.23 | lcuk | thiago_home, i *do* like optimisations like that |
22:37.32 | javispedro | the extra indirection would probably cost more performance that the benefit of doing it with sse2 |
22:37.38 | lcuk | using hardware available when its built makes total sense |
22:37.39 | thiago_home | MiskaX: those aren't auto-selected |
22:37.39 | MiskaX | have two qstring class builds, simd and non-simd and autoconstruct correct one |
22:37.54 | thiago_home | if you compile with SSE2, you get those |
22:37.58 | thiago_home | otherwise, you don't |
22:38.12 | thiago_home | same for the NEON version of the inverse operation (http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qstring.cpp#line3494) |
22:38.42 | thiago_home | btw, gcc uses the same intrinsincs on its own code if you let it |
22:38.42 | lcuk | are there any similar optimisations built in for the ssse bit |
22:38.46 | MiskaX | thiago_home: it could be... |
22:39.34 | lcuk | tried inlining asm into the blitter on liqbase but always failed to get the compiler to accept them |
22:39.34 | javispedro | thiago: you mean gcc's neon autovectorizer works with that loop? |
22:39.40 | MiskaX | in the past i used to have similar thing, but then there was the trouble that x86 linux distros wanted to build for lowest supported hardware |
22:40.03 | MiskaX | that's why things are autodetected these days |
22:40.09 | thiago_home | javispedro: I haven't seen SIMD in ARM code by gcc yet, but I have in x86 |
22:40.18 | javispedro | MiskaX: not completely true. |
22:40.23 | javispedro | let's say there are three ways to do it: |
22:40.26 | thiago_home | mostly due to loop unrolling |
22:40.34 | javispedro | 1. common denominator (386) |
22:40.35 | thiago_home | -ftree-vector |
22:40.57 | javispedro | 2. common denominator for most apps, ship all specifics versions for certain apps (kernel, glibc, mplayer...) |
22:41.07 | javispedro | 3. specific version for all apps (gentoo, ... ) |
22:41.37 | thiago_home | the graphics code does detect SSE2 and disables itself if not present. In fact, it auto-selects other variants. |
22:41.49 | lcuk | im going anyway, its been an informative evening, gnite thiago_home javispedro lbt #meego \o |
22:41.50 | thiago_home | it was judged to be to complex for QString though |
22:41.50 | javispedro | all modern distros are doing (2) |
22:41.56 | javispedro | gnite lcuk |
22:42.03 | lcuk | w00t_, slaine MiskaX \o |
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22:42.25 | w00t_ | nite lcuk |
22:42.29 | javispedro | and both maemo and meego do (3) |
22:42.43 | javispedro | cause they know the target hardware. |
22:42.57 | MiskaX | thiago_home: for example, look at http://subversion.jackaudio.org/jack/trunk/jack/libjack/port.c:jack_port_set_funcs() |
22:43.26 | thiago_home | MiskaX: no doubt |
22:43.31 | thiago_home | I've seen vlc do some evil things too |
22:43.38 | thiago_home | CPU detection via SIGILL :-) |
22:44.29 | MiskaX | thiago_home: this is what i wrote for jack and i don't consider it evil: http://subversion.jackaudio.org/jack/trunk/jack/libjack/simd.c |
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22:45.37 | MiskaX | there's the detection code at the beginning |
22:46.22 | MiskaX | unfortunately for ARM there's no such nice way available |
22:46.54 | ShadowJK | 30 vs 60 fps.. do you mean that at 58 you'd get the occasional duplicate frame, which would make scrollong look jerky? Tearing is when screen displays parts of several different frames simultaneously, and can be avoided as long as cpu can memcpy() a frame fast enough, or, you know, double buffering.. |
22:47.01 | thiago_home | MiskaX: http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/qsimd.cpp |
22:47.18 | thiago_home | I meant http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/master/src/corelib/tools/qsimd.cpp |
22:47.59 | MiskaX | thiago_home: yep, seems to be same thing |
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22:48.30 | MiskaX | thiago_home: so for qstring you would construct internal private class instance out of various specialiced ones based on cached cpu detection instead of the funny ifdef |
22:48.30 | thiago_home | there aren't many ways to flip bits in the same registers |
22:48.47 | thiago_home | not really possible with C++ |
22:48.55 | thiago_home | QString isn't a virtual class |
22:49.22 | MiskaX | it could utilize vtables initialized at load time |
22:49.35 | thiago_home | no vtables. It's not a virtual class. |
22:50.22 | MiskaX | thiago_home: doesn't matter... |
22:50.32 | thiago_home | I need to go to bed now |
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22:50.53 | MiskaX | same here, almost 2am.. |
22:52.07 | MiskaX | really good example of funky vtable is the arm kernel-provided atomic ops |
22:53.09 | MiskaX | automagically hardware specific without app knowing anything about it |
22:55.17 | ShadowJK | MPlayer's fast scaler on N8x0 constructs the code in ram at scaler init time, in order to avoid indirection and extra branches ;p |
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22:55.49 | slaine | and I'm spent |
22:55.57 | slaine | catch you all tomorrow |
22:56.05 | w00t_ | nite slaine |
22:56.15 | slaine | nite |
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