| 02:25.06 | *** join/#maemo-ssu LaoLang_cool (~LaoLang_c@221.226.175.141) |
| 02:27.39 | *** join/#maemo-ssu LaoLang_cool (~LaoLang_c@221.226.175.141) |
| 02:55.31 | *** join/#maemo-ssu amiconn_ (amiconn@rockbox/developer/amiconn) |
| 04:07.32 | *** join/#maemo-ssu mirandir (~valentin@lec67-4-82-230-53-23.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 04:07.48 | *** part/#maemo-ssu mirandir (~valentin@lec67-4-82-230-53-23.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 07:19.06 | *** join/#maemo-ssu Pali (~pali@unaffiliated/pali) |
| 08:10.43 | *** join/#maemo-ssu dafox (~dafox@dyn-194208.nbw.tue.nl) |
| 08:45.14 | *** join/#maemo-ssu _rd (~rd@p57B49806.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 09:24.43 | *** join/#maemo-ssu LaoLang_cool (~LaoLang_c@221.226.175.141) |
| 09:40.23 | *** join/#maemo-ssu andre__ (~andre@Maemo/community/bugmaster/andre) |
| 09:52.20 | *** join/#maemo-ssu LaoLang_cool (~LaoLang_c@221.226.175.141) |
| 09:55.24 | *** join/#maemo-ssu arcean (~Arcean@aael1.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 09:59.35 | *** join/#maemo-ssu Kamping_Kaiser (~kgoetz@gnewsense/friend/kgoetz) |
| 10:00.01 | Kamping_Kaiser | hi maemoists. i just got cssu installed on an n900 so i thought i'd jump in and say hi :) |
| 10:32.24 | MohammadAG | Hi Kamping_Kaiser |
| 10:43.52 | *** join/#maemo-ssu lartza_ (~lartza@IP-62-216-117-183.telemail.fi) |
| 11:07.04 | DocScrutinizer | hi Kamping_Kaiser |
| 11:07.17 | DocScrutinizer | long time no post :-D |
| 11:07.34 | DocScrutinizer | hope you'll enjoy CSSU |
| 11:10.21 | *** join/#maemo-ssu lartza_ (~lartza@IP-62-216-117-183.telemail.fi) |
| 12:07.41 | *** join/#maemo-ssu ivgalvez (598c718a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.140.113.138) |
| 12:08.08 | ivgalvez | I see there still discussion around introducing World Clock and OMP |
| 12:10.45 | DocScrutinizer | unrelated to CSSU |
| 12:12.10 | ivgalvez | Why is that unrelated? |
| 12:12.36 | DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU >>It won't, however, bundle software which can (or could) be installed through the Extras repositories.<< |
| 12:13.27 | ivgalvez | the purpose of CSSU is to Fix bugs in already existing Nokia software and even replace proprietary stuff from Nokia in order to accomplish that |
| 12:13.45 | ivgalvez | Like the replacement for osso-calculator |
| 12:13.52 | ivgalvez | or camera-ui |
| 12:14.04 | DocScrutinizer | camera-ui was definitely a failure |
| 12:14.25 | ivgalvez | if you don't want to see bugs in CSSU use Stable instead of Testing |
| 12:14.31 | DocScrutinizer | and there's very little discern about that |
| 12:14.50 | ivgalvez | Camera-ui works for me (tm) |
| 12:15.14 | DocScrutinizer | nevertheless it's definitely not in scope of CSSU |
| 12:15.35 | DocScrutinizer | CSSU is about maintenance |
| 12:16.04 | DocScrutinizer | it's NOT the alternative OS |
| 12:16.15 | ivgalvez | every thing can be in the scope of CSSU if there are developers willing to |
| 12:16.57 | ivgalvez | and deinitevely substituting the closed source World Clock for a open source reimplementation that is feature complete |
| 12:17.08 | ivgalvez | and free of bugs |
| 12:17.09 | DocScrutinizer | that's mere BS. CSSU isn't defined as an environment to deliver app stuff in it. |
| 12:17.38 | DocScrutinizer | there's no benefit at all in "replacing something" |
| 12:17.55 | DocScrutinizer | and for sure not in "replacing an app" |
| 12:18.10 | DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU >>It won't, however, bundle software which can (or could) be installed through the Extras repositories.<< |
| 12:18.11 | ivgalvez | by a better open source replacement.? definitively yes |
| 12:18.48 | ivgalvez | OMP still has some bugs, but WC hasn't |
| 12:19.16 | ivgalvez | and without pushing it into CSSU-ÇTesting, there won't be people enough to test it |
| 12:19.48 | DocScrutinizer | now THAT is THE killer argument |
| 12:20.14 | DocScrutinizer | develop random app, claim it has to go into CSSU as otherwise not enough users testing it |
| 12:20.47 | DocScrutinizer | listen buddy, what stops you from publishing your app via extras, like every other devel would do? |
| 12:21.21 | ivgalvez | WC is not a random app and not my application |
| 12:21.41 | DocScrutinizer | nevertheless still a normal application |
| 12:21.41 | ivgalvez | some people have already tested it for quite some time, bugs have been fixed and it's feature complete |
| 12:22.01 | DocScrutinizer | fine, then promote it from estras-testing to extras |
| 12:22.16 | ivgalvez | it's not packaged, please read |
| 12:22.29 | DocScrutinizer | that'S what apps do, when they are feature complete, bug free, and tested |
| 12:22.40 | ivgalvez | because it was supposed to be a REPLACEMENT to enter in CSSU |
| 12:22.55 | DocScrutinizer | supposed to??? WTF |
| 12:22.59 | ivgalvez | it only needs one developer to actually pushed the code in Gitorious |
| 12:23.04 | DocScrutinizer | my app is supposed to conquer the world |
| 12:23.18 | ivgalvez | you are quite unpolite |
| 12:24.24 | DocScrutinizer | no Sir, *you* are unpolite to all those CSSU users that want a minimum of random messing with their working original maemo - esp for no good reason (where good reason is BUGFIXES!) |
| 12:24.57 | ivgalvez | you can decide whether or not to install CSSU |
| 12:25.10 | ivgalvez | if you don't want to see bugs use Stable flavour |
| 12:25.10 | DocScrutinizer | you can NOT desice what's CSSU |
| 12:25.21 | ivgalvez | neither do you |
| 12:25.33 | DocScrutinizer | no, I'm just quoting |
| 12:25.46 | DocScrutinizer | and explaining to you what that quoze means |
| 12:25.54 | DocScrutinizer | as you seem to fail to understand |
| 12:26.22 | *** join/#maemo-ssu Pali (~pali@unaffiliated/pali) |
| 12:26.37 | ivgalvez | I have actually come to politely ask about the situation of these two applications, considering that it was disscused by real developers a few days ago |
| 12:26.52 | ivgalvez | and you are over reacting and insulting |
| 12:27.36 | DocScrutinizer | well, you're not alone with your idea to change the world for the better by forcing it to use better apps than those it got now |
| 12:27.49 | DocScrutinizer | I'm insulting? |
| 12:28.15 | ivgalvez | please reread your posts and some of your comments |
| 12:28.24 | DocScrutinizer | so what? |
| 12:28.34 | DocScrutinizer | quote an insult please |
| 12:28.48 | DocScrutinizer | I fail on spotting any |
| 12:29.08 | DocScrutinizer | my appologies if it got percieved as such |
| 12:29.21 | ivgalvez | it's your general tone, anyway I don't want to argue |
| 12:30.25 | DocScrutinizer | your general tone sugesting "you can use CSSU-S or decide to not use CSSU at all if you don't like my idea of what CSSU is meant to do and be" is not any better than mine |
| 12:31.17 | ivgalvez | I have not come here to argue with you |
| 12:31.32 | ivgalvez | just asking CSSU developers about WC and OMP |
| 12:31.45 | DocScrutinizer | and I answered that question |
| 12:32.14 | DocScrutinizer | neither is complying with the definition of what shall ship via CSSU |
| 12:33.16 | Kamping_Kaiser | DocScrutinizer: good to see you :) hopefully i'll find time to chat another time - just heading off now. |
| 12:33.22 | DocScrutinizer | it's up to each user's discretion to either use original WC and MP, or opensource WC and OMP |
| 12:33.51 | DocScrutinizer | and it's not bound to CSSU being installed or not |
| 12:33.59 | Kamping_Kaiser | DocScrutinizer: i'm sure CSSU will keep me going for a while to come - once i know how to package stuff (Freeciv 2.1? that needs updating ;)) |
| 12:34.03 | DocScrutinizer | hi Kamping_Kaiser , and c u l8r |
| 12:34.34 | Kamping_Kaiser | you too |
| 12:37.27 | DocScrutinizer | ivgalvez: calculator was a bit special, as it's using a commandline tool that has a bug. This commadline tool is not that easy to replace with a bugfixed version by installing a new TheBetterCalculator form extras-repo via HAM |
| 12:38.14 | DocScrutinizer | IIRC |
| 12:39.09 | DocScrutinizer | the point about CSSU is: it's not meant to force anything on users when there is a way to give users the freedom of choice |
| 12:42.40 | Sicelo | is still kinda unhappy about Calculator |
| 12:43.14 | DocScrutinizer | fsck calculator :-D there are better ones available |
| 12:43.21 | Sicelo | :D |
| 12:43.40 | DocScrutinizer | the original calculator is braindead anyway |
| 12:43.42 | Sicelo | i have ATI85 .. but it's overkill for simple calculations,, lol |
| 12:44.19 | ivgalvez | "It won't, however, bundle software which can be installed through the Extras repositories. " |
| 12:44.42 | ivgalvez | That comment was introduced by Jaffa on 11:29 25 ene 2011 |
| 12:45.12 | ivgalvez | Previous version said: "The packages contained within the CSSU includes fixes for core N900 programs but not programs that exist in other repositories such as extras, extras-testing and/or extras-devel. " |
| 12:45.36 | ivgalvez | And now you are keeping that phrase as the absolute truth |
| 12:45.47 | ivgalvez | but it's up to developers to develop what they want |
| 12:46.23 | ivgalvez | If any of the CSSU developers want to push WC or OMP is up to them |
| 12:46.26 | DocScrutinizer | yes, granted. But anyway CSSU is not about replacing original calculator by ATI85 or HP48 for all users now. Neither shall it replace original $app by a "feature complete bug free" replacement, unless that original $app has a bug and is used by other system components as well, so we'd need to fix it to make other things work |
| 12:47.00 | ivgalvez | Hildon-desktop has introduced new features |
| 12:47.12 | ivgalvez | like rotation support |
| 12:47.15 | DocScrutinizer | ^^^ Sicelo |
| 12:47.25 | Sicelo | yeah. :P |
| 12:47.43 | DocScrutinizer | ivgalvez: you're free to develop whatever you want. Nevertheless you shouldn't abuse CSSU to deploy your app |
| 12:47.46 | ivgalvez | and WC replacement fix rotation not working with close source version by Nokia |
| 12:48.07 | ivgalvez | Let me repeat, it's not my application |
| 12:48.13 | DocScrutinizer | ok, that'S a legal point |
| 12:48.49 | DocScrutinizer | if it's not working on stock maemo, due to fixes in rotation, then we need to ship it via CSSU |
| 12:48.56 | ivgalvez | and the only real argument by CSSU developer is that none of them have contributed to the code |
| 12:49.32 | DocScrutinizer | that doesn't matter at all |
| 12:49.42 | ivgalvez | that's my point |
| 12:50.05 | ivgalvez | by the way, have you tried Worldclock replacement? |
| 12:50.21 | DocScrutinizer | nope |
| 12:50.59 | DocScrutinizer | I'm happy with worldclock like it is, and I'd not like to have to check any new version that comes just for awesomeness |
| 12:51.03 | Sicelo | anyway, my stance in the whole thing is to agree with Jaffa's statement. the less stuff i have the better. (i'd have bought android device if i wanted tons of apps, lol). ivgalvez: maybe that's why i'm on Stable |
| 12:51.50 | DocScrutinizer | there's basically no difference between S and T regarding this pokicy |
| 12:51.55 | DocScrutinizer | policy* |
| 12:52.08 | ivgalvez | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1150223#post1150223 |
| 12:52.35 | ivgalvez | Sorry |
| 12:52.44 | ivgalvez | clicked in the wrong point |
| 12:54.30 | Sicelo | ivgalvez: my guess is that you will see OMP and WC on CSSU some day :/ |
| 12:54.32 | Sicelo | w/in 31 |
| 12:54.46 | Sicelo | sorry .. typo now |
| 12:55.14 | ivgalvez | I don't have any special interest in having them in CSSU, I already have installed both |
| 12:55.50 | ivgalvez | but I think that replacing closed source components is a gain in the long run |
| 12:56.13 | *** join/#maemo-ssu DocScrutinizer (~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 12:56.15 | DocScrutinizer | if WC can get deployed via extras-repo under name WC-II and will work on stock maemo, I don't see how it ever gets into CSSU. If OTOH it has a bug that's spoiling other things in system, or can't run on anything but CSSU, it's a must to include it to CSSU optional pkgs at least |
| 12:57.36 | Sicelo | ivgalvez: DocScrutinizer's argument holds water imo. i really do miss my working calculator, seriouly. |
| 12:57.40 | ivgalvez | being able to distribute it on Extras should not be an argument, as almos everything (with more or less effort) could be packaged separately and substitute your binaries and/or libs |
| 12:58.11 | DocScrutinizer | no, that's not true |
| 12:58.12 | ivgalvez | as an exaple busybox-power |
| 12:58.24 | ivgalvez | it substitutes the busybox binary |
| 12:58.37 | ivgalvez | not very clean, but works |
| 12:58.38 | DocScrutinizer | well, busybox-power is something nobody sane would want to ship with CSSU |
| 12:59.08 | ivgalvez | yes, but the point is that almost anything can be packaged separetely |
| 12:59.17 | DocScrutinizer | not really |
| 12:59.35 | DocScrutinizer | it's not about packaging, it's about dependencies |
| 13:00.24 | DocScrutinizer | basically CSSU got invented to overcome problems introduced by maemo-MP |
| 13:01.58 | DocScrutinizer | and even while some apps are part of MP, they could still ship around this dependency to get them installed via extras. That's all fine as long as the dependency to MP is not based on any real dependency |
| 13:03.10 | DocScrutinizer | if there's a real dependency to the rest of system (like above mentioned, if WC would need CSSU rotation support to work, and thus can't work on stock maemo) it qualifies for CSSU |
| 13:03.16 | DocScrutinizer | otherwise not |
| 13:03.41 | DocScrutinizer | that's the baseline we try to defend |
| 13:03.56 | ivgalvez | "you" try to defend |
| 13:04.13 | DocScrutinizer | no, it's not my private idea |
| 13:04.39 | DocScrutinizer | it's been common sense between quite a number of CSSU "inventors" |
| 13:04.39 | ivgalvez | sorry, I have failed to see any one else defending this idea |
| 13:04.53 | DocScrutinizer | Sicelo: any comments? |
| 13:06.35 | ivgalvez | anyway, now that we are talking, would you mind to change subject to HEN? |
| 13:06.36 | DocScrutinizer | if not by obvious best practice and common sense about trying to keep a thing maximum liberal and compatible, it should at least be clear from you yourself mentioned it's been Jaffa who wrote that very sentence in http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 13:07.07 | Sicelo | ivgalvez: i'm one of them. but then, i agree with you no one else is defending the idea. that's why i said you will see such stuff in CSSU sometime soon. I'm no dev, so i'm not in a deciding position. but if i was, i can definitely say i'd do my best to have things done exactly as DocScrutinizer just said |
| 13:07.50 | ivgalvez | Sicelo: that's a great answer |
| 13:08.04 | Sicelo | :D |
| 13:08.06 | Sicelo | lulz |
| 13:08.44 | ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer: any chance to see a new version of HEN with updated booston script? |
| 13:08.58 | DocScrutinizer | no one else is vocal about it, nevertheless I frequently get thanks-/queries |
| 13:09.34 | DocScrutinizer | umm, I'd like to see such update. But it's MohammadAG who's h-e-n maintainer |
| 13:10.15 | ivgalvez | that sghouldn't be a problem, anyone can push a package to Devel and then ask for maintenace permission to promote it |
| 13:10.36 | ivgalvez | besides I think MAG is maintainer of a ton of packages |
| 13:26.28 | *** part/#maemo-ssu Kaptenen (~Kaptenen@81.216.60.47) |
| 14:13.54 | *** join/#maemo-ssu LaoLang_cool (~LaoLang_c@221.226.175.141) |
| 16:00.27 | merlin1991 | MohammadAG: how's your laptop/scratchbox doing? |
| 16:07.31 | *** join/#maemo-ssu NIN101 (~NIN@p5DD2865F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:15.14 | MohammadAG | Upgrading ubuntu |
| 16:15.35 | MohammadAG | anyone familiar with how/where hildon-desktop executes stuff? |
| 16:22.09 | DocScrutinizer | where? in RAM. How? you don't wanna know each gory detail |
| 16:22.59 | MohammadAG | where as in which line of code |
| 16:23.11 | MohammadAG | I've talked about this before but I'm planning a hooking platform |
| 16:23.31 | DocScrutinizer | cool, moh the pimp |
| 16:23.43 | DocScrutinizer | :-) |
| 16:23.52 | MohammadAG | lol |
| 16:24.13 | MohammadAG | C hooking :P |
| 16:24.24 | MohammadAG | the platform would load .so files if available |
| 16:24.56 | MohammadAG | when starting rtcom-call-ui for example, it'd check /opt/usr/lib/hooks/rtcom-call-ui/*.so |
| 16:25.03 | MohammadAG | if available, LD_PRELOAD, then exec |
| 16:26.02 | MohammadAG | trap SIGSEV, write to /tmp/brokenhooks so they're not reloaded till you verify they're ok |
| 16:30.10 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: this channel is all about the gory details ;) |
| 16:32.10 | *** join/#maemo-ssu xmlich02 (~imlich@2001:67c:1220:80c:1:d82c:fae6:23a9) |
| 16:47.27 | *** join/#maemo-ssu mase76 (~mase76@p5DD3A020.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:49.47 | *** join/#maemo-ssu wmarone_ (~wmarone@c-67-174-151-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 17:11.23 | *** join/#maemo-ssu mase76 (~mase76@p5DD3A992.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:11.37 | *** join/#maemo-ssu ekze (nyan@2002:5046:e474:1::3) |
| 17:50.17 | *** join/#maemo-ssu mase76 (~mase76@p5DD3A992.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:09.09 | *** join/#maemo-ssu trbs (~trbs@2001:470:d2ad:1:4a5b:39ff:fe7d:1623) |
| 18:23.28 | *** join/#maemo-ssu _rd (~rd@p57B49806.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:46.03 | *** join/#maemo-ssu _rd (~rd@p57B49806.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:46.25 | *** join/#maemo-ssu nox- (noident@freebsd/developer/nox) |
| 20:32.29 | *** join/#maemo-ssu _rd (~rd@p57B49806.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:41.13 | *** join/#maemo-ssu trumee (~parul@188-222-165-248.zone13.bethere.co.uk) |
| 21:04.03 | *** join/#maemo-ssu smoku (~spectrum@xkh0g2.infr.xiaoka.com) |
| 23:33.39 | *** join/#maemo-ssu LaoLang_cool (~LaoLang_c@221.226.175.141) |
| 23:47.19 | *** join/#maemo-ssu smoku (~spectrum@xkh0g2.infr.xiaoka.com) |