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| 07:01.11 | freemangordon | FatPhil: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/linux.kernel/unMdjD_fnZM |
| 07:01.40 | freemangordon | FatPhil: /me needs an advice on how to continue from there |
| 07:02.47 | freemangordon | I think I should insist on reverting the patch that broke, it, but don;t know how to ask for that - sending a new patch or telling Tomi to do it |
| 07:02.54 | freemangordon | telling/asking |
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| 08:40.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | moin Pali |
| 08:42.16 | Pali | hi |
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| 13:35.10 | sunweaver | Hi. Is this the place of the Fremantle Porting Task Force? |
| 13:35.44 | sunweaver | I am a Debian Developer and would like to bring the Hildon desktop to Debian. I wonder what approach I should use. |
| 13:35.55 | sunweaver | ... as the upstream situation is unclear. |
| 13:36.33 | sunweaver | And of course, packaging software for Debian means that the software has to compile against libs and stuff currently in Debian unstable. |
| 13:36.41 | sunweaver | any hints will be appreciated... |
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| 13:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, *basically* fremantle _is_ a debian already |
| 13:51.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | with quite a number of customizations like hildon-desktop, hildon-home, and several other middleware |
| 13:52.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | so "bringin hildon to debian" is a bit... fuzzy |
| 13:52.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's rather like "bring most recent debian (and kernel) to fremantle-debian" |
| 13:54.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | to give you an idea: |
| 13:54.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~closed |
| 13:54.03 | infobot | somebody said closed was http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages or https://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages |
| 13:54.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~fptf |
| 13:54.18 | infobot | hmm... fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 |
| 13:56.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | "bringing HD to debian" wouldn't mean any of the debian apps would run under hildon out of the box, since they use specific HD functions |
| 13:56.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | or they *don't*, rather |
| 13:58.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | HD is a desktop manager, kinda similar to KDE or gnome |
| 13:59.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | but highly customized resp tailored to fit on embedded with touchscreen and no mouse |
| 14:00.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | bringing it to debian is... well I don't find a better word for it than "fuzzy" |
| 14:02.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | fremantle kernel is FOSS but based on http://elinux.org/OMAP_Power_Management aiui, which makes for 50+% of the awesome standby time of N900 |
| 14:04.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | unlike android and other embedded OS, maemo completely relies on zeroclocking of idle CPU |
| 14:04.51 | sunweaver | DocScrutinizer05: so providing the Hildon Desktop in Debian would put a demand on many other applications to link into the hildon API? |
| 14:05.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | other OS either stop tasks that are not having focus, or they even suspend the whole device to RAM which also isn't really a nice idea |
| 14:05.11 | sunweaver | the idea is getting Debian ready for embedded devices. |
| 14:05.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | sunweaver: that's fremantle |
| 14:05.30 | sunweaver | hmmm... |
| 14:05.50 | sunweaver | but it's based on old Debian sources that are unmaintained in Debian... |
| 14:06.02 | sunweaver | do you maintain the complete stack yourself? |
| 14:06.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, then redefine your task |
| 14:06.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 14:06.10 | sunweaver | based on loads of old upstream releases? |
| 14:06.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask pali and freemangordon about that, afaik they do exactly that |
| 14:07.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | backporting of new patches |
| 14:07.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | is a main task of CSSU |
| 14:07.28 | sunweaver | what would make sense to me is take the non-Debian component in Fremantle, tailor them in the role of upstream, so that they fit into Debian, propagate APIs for Hildon that other upstream project should adopt and then build your stack for the Neo900 from there... |
| 14:07.44 | sunweaver | ok... |
| 14:08.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're not going to completely re-invent fremantle |
| 14:08.27 | sunweaver | hehe... course not... |
| 14:08.31 | sunweaver | hmmm... |
| 14:08.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | since then we'd duplicate what mer/nemo already did.., twice? three times? |
| 14:09.02 | sunweaver | I tend to compare things with Ubuntu and Debian... |
| 14:09.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | eeeew ubuntu |
| 14:09.16 | sunweaver | It's so easy to get software into Ubuntu... |
| 14:09.31 | sunweaver | But if you want to get the software widely spread, get it into Debian... |
| 14:09.48 | sunweaver | it will end up in Ubuntu anyway and also in other derivatives... |
| 14:10.05 | sunweaver | So the sustainable approach for a Debian derived system is: go back to the roots. |
| 14:10.08 | sunweaver | IMHO |
| 14:10.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, look e.g for marble |
| 14:10.55 | sunweaver | get your stack running inside Debian, and only add hardware specific stuff in fremantle |
| 14:11.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/packages/view/marble/ |
| 14:11.13 | sunweaver | marble? URL? |
| 14:11.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a "kde" app |
| 14:11.51 | sunweaver | yes. and? |
| 14:11.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | but you don't port fremantle or hildon to marble or kde, you port marble to hildon |
| 14:12.11 | sunweaver | sure. |
| 14:12.18 | merlin1991 | hildon is a full set of apis just like kde or the gnome desktop |
| 14:12.20 | sunweaver | hildon is a desktop UI, right? |
| 14:12.28 | merlin1991 | hildon-desktop is |
| 14:12.32 | merlin1991 | but hildon goes further |
| 14:12.32 | sunweaver | ok, API. |
| 14:12.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | hildon is a desktop manager |
| 14:12.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | incl API as usual |
| 14:12.52 | sunweaver | is it tied to a distribution (fremantle)? |
| 14:13.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, kinda |
| 14:13.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it's pretty hw specific |
| 14:13.23 | sunweaver | hmmm... ok. |
| 14:13.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I already mentioned this |
| 14:13.29 | merlin1991 | it even has screen sizes hardcoded in a few places :D |
| 14:13.36 | sunweaver | touchpad, no keyboard. |
| 14:13.44 | sunweaver | urghh.... |
| 14:13.47 | merlin1991 | touch + keyboard |
| 14:13.51 | sunweaver | ok, that's hardware specific. |
| 14:13.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | uh? we got proper hw kbd! ;-) |
| 14:13.58 | sunweaver | right, N900 has a keyboard. |
| 14:14.05 | sunweaver | but can do without... |
| 14:14.29 | sunweaver | so, but basically, there is nothing hardware specific I can see in the generic concept. |
| 14:14.44 | merlin1991 | regarding the screen size though, there is a project that changed hildon-desktop so that it is resolution independend |
| 14:14.58 | sunweaver | I know, Cordia. But they are dead. |
| 14:15.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | bottom line: don't bring Hildon to debian, since it's already there (fremantle == debian special). Bring new debian stuff to fremantle |
| 14:15.03 | sunweaver | it seems |
| 14:15.29 | sunweaver | DocScrutinizer05: how about finding a way to automize that? |
| 14:15.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | tlak about that to the specialists, pali, freemangordon, FatPhil, jonwil |
| 14:16.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991 |
| 14:16.14 | sunweaver | ok. |
| 14:16.32 | sunweaver | anyone of the mentioned persons, I am happy to gain feedback on the above ^^^^ |
| 14:16.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just the spiritus rector |
| 14:16.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and even that is arguable ;-) |
| 14:20.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | but, for example, don't even start to think about bringing systemd to fremantle, just because debian seems to import that shite now ;-P |
| 14:21.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | for Meo900 the goal is to stay binary-compatible to all the existing N900 apps |
| 14:21.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 even |
| 14:21.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't want to start a new "distro" for that hw platform |
| 14:22.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | the applealing thing is exactly the proven OS and the wealth of existing apps (though many of them are not actively maintained anymore, but still work just fine) |
| 14:23.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and osme of the core apps are ~closed and thus never will get ported to any new distro, no matter how similar |
| 14:23.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | some* |
| 14:24.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | we want to keep those, since they are really fundamental for the fremantle UX |
| 14:25.19 | sunweaver | ack |
| 14:25.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | until somebody conmes up with a FOSS implementation of calendar, contacts, dialer, notifictions, conversations, telepathy, *all* of that nicely integrated, we can't move on with fremantle to a new "distro" |
| 14:27.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | waves |
| 14:27.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | have to run |
| 14:27.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | l8rs |
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| 15:46.27 | DocScrutinizer51 | damn, O2-germany has general connectivy issues, allegedly thanks to strom |
| 15:47.04 | DocScrutinizer51 | storm that is |
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| 16:35.38 | sixwheeledbeast | FOSS calendar is in progress. |
| 17:14.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | nice |
| 17:17.59 | sixwheeledbeast | it's qt from the same dev that maintains OMP. |
| 17:18.41 | sixwheeledbeast | Still work to be done but I am using it day to day with no obvious issues. |
| 17:44.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | will it work with all the apps that depend on its API? like e.g. Fahrplan, to create tasks/appointments from a train schedule? |
| 17:44.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | SMS? |
| 17:44.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | mail? |
| 17:45.58 | sixwheeledbeast | http://wiki.maemo.org/Qalendar |
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| 17:59.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | is it just me or is maemo seeing a second springtime? |
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