| 01:39.06 | Drathir | sad that mplayer dont have acceleration, but also without is good for mysic except situation when stuck in the same time lock phone enabled, or charger connected... |
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| 14:41.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: I think same rationale as for nicocam applies here. As long as it doesn't fix severe bugs, we don't see a reason why to forcefeed replacements of stock functions onto users |
| 14:41.41 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05: it is for *-devel* only |
| 14:41.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, devel. You can do whatever you like on devel |
| 14:42.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a playground fo devels |
| 14:43.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it doesn't introduce any indication about such a package will go to mandatory mp of cssu-t eventually |
| 14:43.26 | Pali | yes, only for devel, so testers can test new version in easy way |
| 14:43.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's basically just to test optional cssu-only packages |
| 14:43.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: don't see any problem with this |
| 14:44.01 | Pali | note that application with name mediaplayer has special permission in OHM and alsaped |
| 14:44.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's what cssu-devel is meant for |
| 14:44.24 | Pali | so current OMP stored not under mediaplayer name not working correctly in maemo system |
| 14:44.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | mhm |
| 14:44.52 | Pali | and devel is good place for testing if replacement working fine will all OHM & alsaped features |
| 14:44.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | so I guess that's a bug in OMP |
| 14:44.59 | Pali | no it is bug in Maemo |
| 14:45.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | is mediaplayer hardcoded in OHM or alsa? |
| 14:45.23 | Pali | only one application with name mediaplayer has some additional rights in Maemo system |
| 14:45.34 | Pali | yes, it is hardcoded |
| 14:45.34 | Pali | (name) |
| 14:45.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | UGH! |
| 14:45.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | now THATS a bug |
| 14:45.54 | Pali | yes, it is bug in maemo |
| 14:45.58 | Pali | but alsaped is closed |
| 14:46.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that needs to get solved on maemo level, not on mediaplayer app level |
| 14:46.45 | Pali | yes, but there are no people which understand that OHM/policy/dres/alsaped/... maemo craps... |
| 14:46.56 | Pali | dres polices is closed too |
| 14:47.12 | Pali | OHM daemon with all plugins was opened |
| 14:47.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | never even heard of it |
| 14:47.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | (dres) |
| 14:48.07 | Pali | it is some virtual stack machine which interpret some binary policy files |
| 14:48.14 | Pali | jonwil know something about it |
| 14:48.29 | Pali | he found maemo developer which implemented it on n900 in nokia |
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| 16:43.12 | sixwheeledbeast | OMP, Worldclock and even in the near future Qalender in CSSU Devel would be good IMO. TBH I'd remove the default file manager and have Hamster if I could. However this is possibly a step too far as it's not a direct replacement. IMO we should consider replacing closed components for these open rewrites in the future. |
| 16:49.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see the rationale for that |
| 16:51.42 | sixwheeledbeast | They're open source and are supported by devs. I don't see why not? |
| 16:58.09 | sixwheeledbeast | camera-ui was replaced it's the same thing. Replacing things for applications that can be community supported. |
| 16:58.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | because of opensource is not a reason in itself. While it adds to the workload of maintainers and also to the risk for users |
| 16:59.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | as soon as somebody wants to *do* sth about any such component, to fix a bug or provide some elemantay improvement, that's a reason |
| 17:00.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | opensource alone is no reason to "touch a working system" |
| 17:00.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | amd camera-ui been a mistake |
| 17:00.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's no good reason to forcefeed it to users |
| 17:01.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | since it easily can go optional |
| 17:04.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | general policy is: nothing will go mandatory unless other stuff depends on it, or it by itself introduces general system instability or otherwise severely impacts on UX in a negative way that needs to get fixed. For camera-ui that doesn't apply, so it should've gone optional or maybe optional-alternative |
| 17:06.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's been absolutely zero reason to make it mandatory |
| 17:13.29 | sixwheeledbeast | Having to have the stock application and an additional application for media/calender/clock seems stupid when they have the same functionality. Also these 3 I have listed were rewritten due to bugs/UX annoyances anyway. |
| 17:16.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | "to have"? |
| 17:16.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know what you suppose somebody would "have to have" |
| 17:17.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | the stock apps exist and are available and deployed to every user |
| 17:18.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's stupid to force an alternative to every user for the sole sake of "it's FOSS now" - users first instance don't give a F about it |
| 17:19.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | if some user is interested in "my system shall be FOSS only" then they are free to install optional alternatives |
| 17:19.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | if those are available |
| 17:19.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, there's no reason to forcefeed those alternatives to everybody |
| 17:21.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | maemo is no monolithic block that has to consist of a precisely defined immutable set of apps |
| 17:22.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia's idea of a monster metapackage was a silly idea, borne from a corporate mindset thinking |
| 17:27.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and CSSU is not about redefining that template for all users, to move a uniform maemo UX towards some defintion done by a few devels who think they know better what's nice and useful for all users. CSSU first and foremost is about fixing bugs and offering alternatives. Freedom of choice, not new rules. And you could consider mp-fremantle-pr as a bug in itself since it introduces restrictions that are not justified by any technical or |
| 17:27.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | organizational need |
| 17:32.07 | sixwheeledbeast | I like to see if the maemo community agrees... From a "some user" POV there are no changes due to them being rewrites of the stock application anyway! They should/would be happy for the bug fixes/UX fixes/dev support. |
| 17:32.30 | sixwheeledbeast | LIke camera-ui2 users |
| 17:34.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm NOT happy with camera-ui2 |
| 17:34.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it's basically irrelevant how many users opt against their own freedom of choice |
| 17:35.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | they will get it nevertheless, for the sake of those 5% who insist in it |
| 17:36.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | or are you Devo fan? "freedom of choice, is what we got - freedom from choice, is what we want" |
| 17:39.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | democracy also means protection of minorities, and never introduce restrictions for anybody if they are not needed |
| 17:40.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | even when 99.99% of a poll say "I don't mind about whether or not that restriction gets implemented. It doesn't have any effect on my life" |
| 17:42.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | there is a way to provide stuff like camera-ui and OMP and whatnot else without forbidding the usage of the twin stock apps for those who would prefer that. No matter how many or how few those are |
| 17:43.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | so no masses shouting "force it to everybody since we think it's the right thing to do" should rule on that |
| 17:43.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | everybody is free to *OPT* for the FOSS alternatives |
| 17:44.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | for their own litte world err system |
| 17:45.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you want to satisfy those masses even further: create a MP depending on all the alternatives, thus they once install one package cssu-foss-alternatives and they're done |
| 17:46.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | but still everybody not happy with this approach is free to not install the MP, and thus stay on stock for camera and install OMP explicitly |
| 17:46.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see a better approach than this one |
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| 18:00.56 | sixwheeledbeast | Well if that's the way forward then camera-ui2 has to be in CSSU-FOSS package IMO. |
| 18:02.15 | sixwheeledbeast | Also CSSU-FOSS should remove non-required stock applications on installation and re-install stock applications on removal. |
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| 18:49.22 | sixwheeledbeast | awaits the "21.2011.38-1SmaemoX.X+thumb+fossalt" era then ;) |
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| 20:39.49 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: we should have some kind of UI to select between package versions, yes |
| 20:39.57 | kerio | but otoh, writing UIs is such a major pain in the ass |
| 20:40.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think there is such UI |
| 20:40.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | called HAM |
| 20:40.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | and for the friggin metapackage you can for sure ship that via unpatched HAM |
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| 20:44.21 | kerio | the metapackage needs to go, imo |
| 20:44.31 | kerio | so you can make stuff like the builtin mediaplayer a user package |
| 20:45.15 | kerio | so users can, for instance, install OMP and uninstall stock |
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| 21:14.13 | Sicelo | HAM can choose between versions? |
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| 21:23.32 | sixwheeledbeast | distribution section? |
| 21:26.05 | Sicelo | fires up HAM after a loooong time |
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| 23:13.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | ham can choose between packages. packages in turn can provide identical capabilities and they afaik also can conflict with each other |
| 23:15.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | but, for example mediaplayer: simply remove mediaplayer from mp-fremantle-pr metapackage and all of a sudden you're free to uninstall or replace it |
| 23:17.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | make it provide "play-media" and mp-fremantle-pr resp mp-community-pr pulls in the capability "play-media" and you're free to install any alternative that also provides "play-media" and thus uninstalls the stock media player |
| 23:18.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | for this to work you need a ultrthin wrapper around the stock media player, a metapackage called nokia-mediaplayer that simply provides capability "play-media" and depends on stock mediaplayer |
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