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| 07:12.51 | kerio | what decides what gets exported in mass storage mode? |
| 07:19.25 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: http://merlin1991.at/~freemangordon/kernel-cssu-ppoll/ |
| 07:19.37 | freemangordon | in case you need it for tests |
| 07:27.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks |
| 07:27.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | later today |
| 07:27.56 | freemangordon | ok, no hurry |
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| 08:58.54 | jon_y | freemangordon: is cssu-kernel only required for cssu-thumb? |
| 09:04.16 | kerio | kernel-cssu is a rebranded kernel-power |
| 09:07.53 | jon_y | so, just different uname? |
| 09:08.16 | jon_y | is it actually used anywhere else other than in cssu-thumb? |
| 09:08.26 | kerio | nope |
| 09:09.19 | jon_y | so, what is the reason for the rebranding instead of pointing to kp? |
| 09:12.11 | kerio | jon_y: you shouldn't depend on things outside of your repo |
| 09:12.28 | kerio | also, /eventually/ it should become something similar to stock |
| 09:12.44 | jon_y | ok |
| 09:13.00 | jon_y | I thought it was merely stock+errata fix |
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| 10:29.11 | freemangordon | kerio: who said it should become something similar to stock? |
| 10:29.26 | kerio | ok fine, it could become something similar to stock |
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| 11:35.10 | Pali | merlin1991, create repo rtcom-messaging-ui-portrait on gitorious cssu |
| 11:42.46 | Pali | merlin1991, I pushed one line patch which enabling portrait mode in osso-xterm: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/osso-xterm/commit/9b7b8c022b065cb62df05ecd39a843ce9c760249 |
| 11:46.56 | jon_y | Pali: would it be possible to disable it? :) |
| 11:47.28 | Pali | orientation lock |
| 11:47.42 | jon_y | ok, will do that |
| 11:47.56 | jon_y | n900 is too slow for rotation anyway |
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| 11:57.25 | freemangordon | jon_y: what? |
| 11:57.32 | freemangordon | why too slow? |
| 11:58.05 | jon_y | freemangordon: there is an uncomfortable lag when it rotates, screen flickering etc |
| 11:58.28 | kerio | install the "smooth" transitions.ini |
| 11:58.35 | freemangordon | jon_y: not here |
| 11:58.37 | jon_y | where/how? |
| 11:59.09 | jon_y | I really like turbo mode, except for all the red boxes |
| 11:59.35 | freemangordon | also rotation is "slow" as it follows the parameters in /usr/share/hildon-desktop/transitions.ini |
| 12:00.04 | jon_y | how do I speed it up? |
| 12:00.25 | freemangordon | just reduce transition duration |
| 12:00.34 | jon_y | ok, will try |
| 12:00.52 | jon_y | btw, cssu features still safe to use? |
| 12:01.20 | freemangordon | NFC, afaik it has not been updated since long ago |
| 12:02.13 | jon_y | I duration = 50 |
| 12:02.16 | jon_y | that it? |
| 12:03.17 | freemangordon | iirc every parameter in transitions.ini has a comment on what it does, just read it |
| 12:07.43 | jon_y | nope, still flickering after rotation |
| 12:08.01 | jon_y | shaved off 100 every "duration" |
| 12:08.51 | freemangordon | what does "flickering" mean in that context? screen being blanked by half os a second? |
| 12:08.57 | freemangordon | *of |
| 12:10.04 | jon_y | yeah, the screen is blacked after it rotates |
| 12:10.12 | jon_y | and then flickers back |
| 12:10.58 | freemangordon | there is a parameter for that. for how much time to remain blank |
| 12:11.13 | freemangordon | iirc it is on the top of transition.ini |
| 12:11.27 | freemangordon | you can tweak degree of rotation, etc. |
| 12:11.41 | freemangordon | and you better torn zaxis rotation on |
| 12:11.45 | freemangordon | *turn |
| 12:14.03 | MrPingu | what's turbo in transitions.ini? |
| 12:14.09 | MrPingu | Has no comment |
| 12:15.02 | jon_y | MrPingu: makes UI SUPER FAST |
| 12:15.13 | jon_y | at cost of some graphical artifact in the app menu |
| 12:15.38 | jon_y | also, no more blurness |
| 12:20.44 | MrPingu | Thanks |
| 12:21.15 | jon_y | I'd love it if it didn't draw over all the app icons in red |
| 12:21.44 | jon_y | freemangordon: that part isn't controlled by hildon-desktop? |
| 12:23.27 | MrPingu | You can disable blurness by making it's value 0 too |
| 12:23.38 | MrPingu | Makes it smoother too ;) |
| 12:23.59 | jon_y | I mean the red overlay |
| 12:24.14 | jon_y | I'm using blurless without colors already |
| 12:24.54 | MrPingu | without colors? |
| 12:25.21 | MrPingu | I even have NO blur/blackwhite at all ;) |
| 12:25.22 | jon_y | yeah, there is a color option around the same area |
| 12:25.38 | jon_y | makes things go faster |
| 12:25.53 | jon_y | I guess they painted the icons red so it feels 3x faster :) |
| 12:26.38 | MrPingu | Hmm faster than no blur or whatever effects at all? |
| 12:27.07 | MrPingu | My menu looks exactly the same as my desktop, except without widgets |
| 12:27.29 | jon_y | maybe it was psychological for grayscale to feel faster |
| 12:28.24 | MrPingu | Maybe, maybe not |
| 12:28.59 | MrPingu | but I still think turning off blur / grayscale + turning off menu zooming is very fast |
| 12:29.11 | MrPingu | and ofcourse half all duration values :P |
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| 12:57.37 | merlin1991 | Pali: can you add an option into the osso-xterm ui to enable / disable that code? |
| 12:58.28 | jon_y | yes please, I don't want my terminal to spin around when I moved my phone at a wrong angle |
| 12:59.06 | Pali | hm, do we really want to have option to enable/disable portrait mode in each application? |
| 12:59.26 | Pali | I think reason for orientation lock was to move this functionality |
| 12:59.54 | jon_y | its not working on some apps |
| 13:00.06 | merlin1991 | jon_y: there's a fix coming for that |
| 13:00.50 | jon_y | yay, I was getting annoyed at trying to view my portrait pictures when the phone would "helpfully" rotate it for me |
| 13:00.53 | merlin1991 | Pali: orientation lock locks the whole thing, but I can understand when somebody wants a landscape only terminal (more line width) and most things still going portrait |
| 13:02.11 | merlin1991 | I know the problem from harmattan, where the terminal launches in portrait, stuff like the output of "mount" is unreadable untill you rotate to landscape and reissue the command |
| 13:03.20 | jon_y | merlin1991: fix will come in a form of cssu update? |
| 13:03.45 | merlin1991 | jon_y: yes, though it's not goign to fix your gallery problem |
| 13:03.53 | merlin1991 | that is f00bar by application design |
| 13:03.59 | jon_y | aww |
| 13:05.04 | merlin1991 | thinks of going back to the n900 as a main phone |
| 13:05.48 | merlin1991 | I currently have a setup where I use the n950 for everything network related, and the n9 for calls, sms and music, but the friggin media play sucks donkey balls |
| 13:05.59 | luf | +1 for special on/off for terminal rotation |
| 13:06.22 | jon_y | terminal should only go wiiiider |
| 13:06.49 | jon_y | still not used to using the terminal in portrait mode |
| 13:09.31 | luf | I also see the reason when to use terminal in portrait ... |
| 13:09.50 | merlin1991 | when? |
| 13:09.58 | merlin1991 | :D |
| 13:10.03 | jon_y | there is screen(1) for that |
| 13:10.21 | merlin1991 | at least my use pattern is landscape only for terminal stuff :D |
| 13:10.21 | jon_y | not sure how usable it is on a touchscreen though |
| 13:10.22 | luf | To see some long list which isn't wide. |
| 13:10.36 | jon_y | or less(1) |
| 13:10.45 | merlin1991 | bah I don't like screen |
| 13:10.55 | merlin1991 | when you su into another user screen goes f0bar |
| 13:11.12 | luf | I don't remember but I faced the situation few times. |
| 13:11.18 | jon_y | well, start screen after you su? |
| 13:11.51 | merlin1991 | jon_y: screen -r (after su - someuser) --> Cannot open your terminal '/dev/pts/0' - please check |
| 13:12.14 | jon_y | no, su as that user, then screen |
| 13:12.27 | jon_y | oh wait |
| 13:12.28 | jon_y | ok |
| 13:13.13 | jon_y | su and then start the terminal with proper x cookie? |
| 13:13.28 | merlin1991 | headless server I'm talking about here :D |
| 13:13.54 | jon_y | ssh from a different box with a proper terminal emulator? |
| 13:14.03 | merlin1991 | yep |
| 13:14.23 | merlin1991 | because if I ssh in as the user under which the screen runs, it just works |
| 13:14.24 | jon_y | gotta love ssh, magic toolbox |
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| 13:18.16 | MrPingu | without portrait vkb, why would you even want xterm n portrait? |
| 13:18.28 | MrPingu | I know nicolai is working on it |
| 13:18.34 | MrPingu | but still |
| 13:21.16 | MrPingu | Also now that vkb is coming, when will portrait rtcom-messaging-ui be implemented in cssu? |
| 13:21.38 | MrPingu | with custom layout, it is actually already working |
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| 13:35.06 | ivgalvez | hi all |
| 13:35.14 | merlin1991 | moin |
| 13:35.22 | ivgalvez | I've seen recent debate abou inclusion of new kernel in CSSU |
| 13:36.02 | merlin1991 | we always debate ,) |
| 13:36.14 | ivgalvez | while opt-out and other improvements to freedom of choice are desirable, the whole concept about not including new kernel in CSSU is useless |
| 13:36.27 | ivgalvez | as Diablo CSSU already includes new kernel |
| 13:36.44 | ivgalvez | and each Nokia PR provides new kernel as well |
| 13:40.38 | MrPingu | Hi |
| 13:41.10 | MrPingu | True, valid argument if you ask me |
| 13:43.28 | ivgalvez | arguments might be valid for kernel patches (in a patch by patch basis) from a technical POV, but not to the whole idea of packaging a new kernel that actually fixes bugs |
| 13:44.20 | ivgalvez | and there are more bugfixes in KP than just the pselect one that should also be packaged to all users |
| 13:44.28 | jon_y | ivgalvez: the problem is that it forces on what it thinks is a correct kernel |
| 13:44.55 | jon_y | I already have KP loaded via uboot, but it doesn't know that |
| 13:46.01 | ivgalvez | jon_y: sorry I don't understand what you mean |
| 13:46.34 | jon_y | well, the cssu kernel flashed over my uboot |
| 13:46.42 | jon_y | it didn't need to do so |
| 13:47.07 | jon_y | kp already handles whatever cssu throws at it |
| 13:47.28 | ivgalvez | if there were a new PR by Nokia with a newer kernel, what would happen in your case? |
| 13:47.28 | jon_y | so the whole flashing is kind of feels like a shove |
| 13:47.48 | MrPingu | his uboot would be overwritten |
| 13:47.56 | ivgalvez | exactly |
| 13:48.00 | jon_y | I don't even have nokia kernel installed at all |
| 13:48.09 | jon_y | it was removed by cssu |
| 13:48.15 | jon_y | well, cssu-thumb |
| 13:48.20 | ivgalvez | is uboot part of standard Maemo distribution? |
| 13:48.27 | ivgalvez | or multiboot? |
| 13:48.28 | ivgalvez | nope |
| 13:48.30 | MrPingu | No |
| 13:48.31 | jon_y | uboot for pr13 |
| 13:48.44 | jon_y | and then there is pali's uboot |
| 13:48.52 | ivgalvez | CSSU is upgrade/bugfixes for PR1.3 |
| 13:49.00 | MrPingu | exactly! |
| 13:49.08 | ivgalvez | and it should provide any bugfixes available to that |
| 13:49.34 | MrPingu | Well but problem is, it might break 3rd party apps |
| 13:49.48 | ivgalvez | (I will avoid the discussion around open source replacements or improved applications) |
| 13:49.57 | MrPingu | see fcam-driver issues |
| 13:50.00 | jon_y | all it needs is a "I know what I'm doing dammit" mode |
| 13:50.27 | ivgalvez | if you have uboot.... you should know what you are doing |
| 13:50.28 | MrPingu | jon_y: all we need is an truly open nolo :P |
| 13:50.53 | MrPingu | That won't happen tho :( |
| 13:51.13 | jon_y | whats wrong with fcam? |
| 13:51.19 | MrPingu | Nothing |
| 13:51.25 | ivgalvez | in the meantime, average user that shouldn't need to know about Kernel Power, uboot, multiboot etc, needs to receive bugfixes |
| 13:51.47 | jon_y | ivgalvez: right, which is why the option should be given with scary sounding words |
| 13:52.06 | jon_y | skip the flash at your own risk |
| 13:52.07 | MrPingu | ivgalvez, how many average users are there on CSSU? |
| 13:52.19 | Pali | I already have package which patching flashing and if you are going to flash other kernel version it show message to user |
| 13:52.19 | jon_y | yes, that would be another point |
| 13:52.28 | Pali | new kernel-power v53 will depends on that package |
| 13:52.41 | jon_y | Pali: yeah, I am using your flasher |
| 13:52.41 | ivgalvez | MrPincu We should promote use of CSSU among avarage users |
| 13:52.44 | Pali | my last u-boot also depends on iy |
| 13:52.46 | ivgalvez | CSSU Stable |
| 13:52.46 | Pali | *it |
| 13:53.00 | MrPingu | ivgalvez: sure! |
| 13:53.00 | Pali | deb package fiasco-image-update-ask |
| 13:53.05 | jon_y | I thought I had no choice to avoid the flashing, since I saw only an "agree" button |
| 13:53.19 | Pali | jon_y, so cancel it |
| 13:53.24 | MrPingu | Take for example gemote, closed source application |
| 13:53.31 | jon_y | I did not know how to cancel it |
| 13:53.37 | MrPingu | depends on qt 4.7.0 |
| 13:53.37 | jon_y | now I know though |
| 13:53.46 | Pali | click above window |
| 13:53.53 | Pali | maemo has no cancel button |
| 13:54.01 | jon_y | yes, I did that as soon as I learned it |
| 13:54.04 | Pali | cancel is done by clicking out of window |
| 13:54.06 | MrPingu | cssu upgraded qt to 4.7.4 and broke the app |
| 13:54.33 | ivgalvez | CSSU must try not to break 3rd party applications, but that could be unavoidable. MrPingu 's example or LinkedUp that fails miserably with newer Qt due to focus lost |
| 13:55.20 | MrPingu | It's a bit of a dilemma because 4.7.4 fixed also alot of bugs |
| 13:55.41 | MrPingu | maintaining backward compatibility can be a pain sometimes |
| 13:56.03 | ivgalvez | if the only problem packaging newer kernel is that users with custom kernels might need to reinstall them, then that's not a real issue but an annoyance (for a few advanced users that will know how to deal with it) |
| 13:56.18 | MrPingu | True that! |
| 13:56.47 | MrPingu | My concern is more that it might break 3rd party apps from the ovistore |
| 13:56.50 | jon_y | Pali: what does kp53 change, and why was kp52 not in the regular update channels? |
| 13:57.21 | Pali | jon_y, kp52 was not released yet |
| 13:57.23 | ivgalvez | MrPingu, that's really a concern |
| 13:57.30 | Pali | there is only pre release version |
| 13:57.35 | ivgalvez | not all this drama about flashing kernels |
| 13:57.37 | jon_y | oh I see |
| 13:57.44 | Pali | I'm waiting for dfries musb patches |
| 13:58.02 | Pali | after that there will be time to testing and then will go to extras |
| 13:58.18 | jon_y | dfries musb? |
| 13:58.38 | MrPingu | If you upgraded from *official* PR1.2 to PR 1.3, you also lost your Power-kernel |
| 13:59.01 | MrPingu | Totally behind you ivgalvez, in that matter |
| 13:59.04 | Pali | musb driver patches from david fries |
| 13:59.15 | jon_y | well, with pali's ask mod, no longer :) |
| 13:59.46 | MrPingu | pali, hows exams? |
| 14:00.11 | Pali | MrPingu, finished in sep :-) |
| 14:00.16 | jon_y | I held out of 1.3 for quite some time until I needed a reflash from apt problems |
| 14:01.44 | MrPingu | Still, you upgraded, you lost your kernel. So why wouldn't cssu not do that too, regarding your uboot argument |
| 14:02.20 | jon_y | because it was hosed anyway? |
| 14:02.58 | MrPingu | well in that case, hose your device first, then upgrade |
| 14:03.26 | jon_y | like I said, put a "I know what I'm doing" button, like Pali's flasher |
| 14:03.44 | MrPingu | OK, fine with that too ;) |
| 14:03.44 | jon_y | that would have been pretty nice to know you can ignore the flash |
| 14:04.01 | MrPingu | I agree |
| 14:04.12 | jon_y | well, you better know what you're doing if you skip the flash |
| 14:04.24 | MrPingu | as probably kp > cssu |
| 14:04.30 | MrPingu | in terms of features |
| 14:04.53 | ivgalvez | merlin1991 I think you should take a final decision regarding this and other issues, you won't be able to keep everybody happy |
| 14:05.06 | MrPingu | I mean kp will include the same functionality as cssu |
| 14:05.53 | MrPingu | only cssu-kernel only the necessary patches, not the OC patches and such |
| 14:06.16 | MrPingu | This the way it should be in my eyes, not saying it is :P |
| 14:07.28 | jon_y | if cssh-kernel is basically the stock kernel+cssu feature requirements, it might actually have been useful if you already have kp |
| 14:07.48 | jon_y | fallback kernel in case your kp install is doing something undesirable |
| 14:08.10 | jon_y | could happen with kp bugs that leak through |
| 14:18.08 | *** join/#maemo-ssu freemangordon (d5e23faf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.226.63.175) |
| 14:18.32 | freemangordon | the fuck, I lost the connection to my desktop :( |
| 14:18.46 | merlin1991 | hm? |
| 14:18.49 | freemangordon | I hope my PC is still alive :D |
| 14:18.59 | freemangordon | nfc, power outage maybe |
| 14:19.09 | freemangordon | i am using webirc now |
| 14:19.39 | freemangordon | usually i connect via remote desktop to my home PC |
| 14:20.27 | freemangordon | anyway, I saw there is a discussion going on again here :) |
| 14:20.42 | merlin1991 | Pali: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/rtcom-messaging-ui-portrait |
| 14:21.00 | freemangordon | Pali: did you try that? |
| 14:23.47 | MrPingu | freemangordon: good eyes ^^ |
| 14:24.38 | *** join/#maemo-ssu M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@ip-89-102-207-166.net.upcbroadband.cz) |
| 14:26.17 | freemangordon | jon_y: KP and the kernel to be in CSSU are (or at least should be) a totally different beasts. Not because of the paches they contain, but because of the way they are/will be maintained |
| 14:26.53 | jon_y | freemangordon: yeah, I know what you mean |
| 14:27.09 | jon_y | cssu at least from what I read, is supposed to be more conservative |
| 14:27.33 | MrPingu | freemangordon: but we can assume that kp = cssu + power features |
| 14:27.35 | freemangordon | exactly |
| 14:27.36 | MrPingu | ? |
| 14:27.55 | freemangordon | MrPingu: define "power feaurea" |
| 14:28.03 | freemangordon | *features |
| 14:28.38 | MrPingu | power features: modules for host mode, OC, 720p bridgedriver |
| 14:28.38 | jon_y | pppoe and ip routing? |
| 14:28.47 | jon_y | vpn? |
| 14:29.00 | freemangordon | is .ko file sitting in /lib/modules... , but unloaded a power feature? |
| 14:29.26 | MrPingu | I don't know |
| 14:29.54 | MrPingu | but if it isn't used, why is it included? |
| 14:30.51 | freemangordon | MrPingu: what if it is included? |
| 14:31.02 | MrPingu | eating space |
| 14:31.28 | freemangordon | we are talking about the freedom, but I don;t think stripping kernel functionality is equal to giving freedom to the users |
| 14:31.43 | MrPingu | I don't care what's included, I will probably go KP anyway |
| 14:32.16 | MrPingu | but we are also talking about that cssu-kernel is more conservative |
| 14:32.37 | freemangordon | sure |
| 14:33.20 | MrPingu | in that case: normal user doesn't need the charging driver, wlan driver, hostmode |
| 14:33.29 | MrPingu | these people go KP anyway |
| 14:33.53 | freemangordon | but he needs iptables to run qtmobile hotspot |
| 14:33.58 | MrPingu | Yes |
| 14:34.07 | freemangordon | see, who will evaluate what "normal user" needs and what not |
| 14:34.18 | MrPingu | That's a bit of a problem |
| 14:34.23 | jon_y | see the latest stock iphone |
| 14:34.24 | freemangordon | not me, that's for sure |
| 14:34.28 | jon_y | that is the normal user |
| 14:34.50 | freemangordon | jon_y: bullshit |
| 14:34.52 | jon_y | does the stock iphone has an equivalent of qtmobile? |
| 14:34.58 | MrPingu | but IMO iptables is less progressive than eg host mode and more of these bleeding-edge stuff |
| 14:35.01 | jon_y | ok, I was just joking |
| 14:35.03 | Pali | merlin1991, ok |
| 14:35.10 | Pali | freemangordon, now testing |
| 14:35.26 | MrPingu | But still who defines: "normal user" indeed |
| 14:35.34 | freemangordon | MrPingu: exactly |
| 14:35.38 | jon_y | looking at the iphone givees you some objective goals to compare to |
| 14:35.39 | Pali | freemangordon, it show me both horizontal & vertical scrollbar |
| 14:35.58 | jon_y | the n900 is not the iphone though |
| 14:36.11 | MrPingu | Pali: rtcom-messaging-ui? |
| 14:36.14 | jon_y | yeah, selection bias sucks |
| 14:36.18 | freemangordon | Pali: but you should not need to scroll horizontaly |
| 14:36.34 | DocScrutinizer51 | I vote against implementing a (CSSU special) orientation lock into every app. The way to go is to make the orientation lock widget in status bar more smart and aware of the currently upfront application window, so you can edit blacklist settings for that particular app specifically |
| 14:36.53 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer51: :nod: |
| 14:36.59 | *** join/#maemo-ssu NIN101 (~NIN@p5DD2864F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:37.09 | jon_y | well, as long as it's easy to add to the blacklist\ |
| 14:37.23 | jon_y | and no need to restart hildon-desktop to take effect |
| 14:37.35 | Pali | freemangordon, jabber chat is ok |
| 14:37.42 | freemangordon | I am in a prcess of REing part of systemui, so hopefully we'll have the interface to add stuff to power menu and such more easily |
| 14:37.43 | Pali | but I need to scroll in SMS |
| 14:38.01 | freemangordon | hmm, that's strange |
| 14:38.22 | freemangordon | Pali: lemme check |
| 14:39.24 | MrPingu | pali: talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=955119 |
| 14:40.13 | DocScrutinizer51 | btw while we're at it, we should augment simple brightness widget screen-on-always function in a similar way, keeping screen on only when brightlisted app is upfront |
| 14:40.40 | DocScrutinizer51 | basically identical GUI paradigm |
| 14:41.07 | freemangordon | Pali: WFM, maybe I didn't send you some file, lemme check again |
| 14:41.37 | MrPingu | DocScrutinizer51: does that applet have some kind of whitelist? |
| 14:41.48 | DocScrutinizer51 | not yet |
| 14:42.14 | DocScrutinizer51 | it's as global as orientation lock is, right now |
| 14:42.34 | MrPingu | Just thought I was studip and didn't see that before .P |
| 14:42.44 | DocScrutinizer51 | nah :) |
| 14:43.07 | freemangordon | Pali: where did you put those files? |
| 14:43.18 | Pali | I relaced original |
| 14:43.23 | freemangordon | "/usr/share/rtcom-messaging-ui/html" |
| 14:43.30 | Pali | hm, now I testing and for some SMS it is OK |
| 14:43.33 | Pali | and for some not |
| 14:43.46 | freemangordon | did you reboot? |
| 14:44.15 | MrPingu | killall rtcom-messaging-ui is enough |
| 14:44.22 | MrPingu | atleast afaik |
| 14:45.03 | Pali | now after killall it is OK :-) |
| 14:45.12 | Pali | I forgot about it |
| 14:45.14 | freemangordon | PALIIII |
| 14:45.22 | freemangordon | :D:D:D |
| 14:45.28 | Pali | so messaging-ui does not close window |
| 14:45.33 | Pali | only hide it |
| 14:46.10 | Pali | and when I opened old SMS (which was not shown after last boot) is was ok |
| 14:46.15 | Pali | and for some new, it not worked... |
| 14:46.50 | freemangordon | in that regard, why modest does not auto-rotate when forced rotation is disabled? |
| 14:47.21 | Pali | freemangordon, but now all avatars (also empty) are on separate line |
| 14:47.26 | Pali | before it was in text |
| 14:48.10 | Pali | ^^ this is only for SMS |
| 14:48.45 | MrPingu | Pali: talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=955119 |
| 14:49.06 | Pali | MrPingu, why? |
| 14:49.09 | MrPingu | that layout is the default with portraitsuporrt |
| 14:49.33 | Pali | I have forcerotation enabled |
| 14:49.47 | Pali | without it rtcom messaging ui portrait not working... |
| 14:49.47 | MrPingu | I understand |
| 14:50.17 | MrPingu | I mean, the layout of the conversations are just css if I am right |
| 14:50.31 | MrPingu | these files + forced rotation |
| 14:50.32 | freemangordon | Pali: layout might be a little bit different to stock, didn't checked |
| 14:50.37 | freemangordon | MrPingu: yes |
| 14:50.42 | Pali | then, ok |
| 14:51.13 | freemangordon | Pali: all avatrs are here |
| 14:51.20 | MrPingu | The link I send you has the default layout + portrait support so you don't have to scroll sideways |
| 14:51.24 | freemangordon | Pali: please, reboot :P |
| 14:52.07 | freemangordon | MrPingu: there is a nasty bug on TMO, if you click on the avatar to open a conversation, ui hangs |
| 14:52.36 | freemangordon | s/conversation/contact/ |
| 14:53.12 | MrPingu | Never experienced that |
| 14:53.47 | freemangordon | ok, there are several versions of css, there is at least one hat is ok, but I was not sure which one |
| 14:54.02 | freemangordon | so I sent what i use to pali, it works for sure |
| 14:54.39 | MrPingu | NP |
| 14:55.21 | MrPingu | good to see portrait vkb is almost ready too :) |
| 14:56.49 | freemangordon | yeah, kudos to nicolai |
| 14:58.40 | MrPingu | Installed that deb as I was eager to try but it didn't work as stated in his edit :P |
| 15:01.45 | Pali | deb package is here: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/rtcom-messaging-ui-portrait |
| 15:03.39 | MrPingu | Also for brave souls like me? :P |
| 15:07.16 | freemangordon | :D |
| 15:07.38 | freemangordon | MrPingu: did you install vkbrenederer as well? |
| 15:09.25 | MrPingu | vkbrenderer is included doesn't it? |
| 15:10.22 | freemangordon | BTW whitelisting rtcom-messaging-ui does not work as it should, at least here. Lets hope latest patches from arcean fix that |
| 15:10.25 | freemangordon | MrPingu: NFC |
| 15:11.12 | MrPingu | libhildon-im-vkbrenderer3 3.3.20-1+0m5 |
| 15:11.19 | MrPingu | seems it's installed ;) |
| 15:11.41 | MrPingu | freemangordon: have whitelisted it here |
| 15:12.16 | freemangordon | MrPingu: of course it is installed :D |
| 15:12.26 | freemangordon | this is part of PR1.x |
| 15:12.34 | freemangordon | the question is which version? |
| 15:13.37 | freemangordon | hmm, actually it is not changed |
| 15:14.04 | MrPingu | Problem here is, it doesn't get displayed in portrait. Vkb doesn't show up at all |
| 15:14.19 | MrPingu | landscape works fine |
| 15:14.32 | MrPingu | but g2g, driving lesson |
| 15:36.36 | *** join/#maemo-ssu dafox (~dafox@ip51cc571d.speed.planet.nl) |
| 16:06.33 | *** join/#maemo-ssu freemangordon (~freemango@130-204-50-168.2074221835.ddns.cablebg.net) |
| 16:21.18 | *** join/#maemo-ssu dafox (~dafox@ip51cc571d.speed.planet.nl) |
| 16:24.40 | Pali | freemangordon, is there whitelist for forcerotation? |
| 16:24.57 | freemangordon | yep |
| 16:25.30 | Pali | do you have link? |
| 16:25.40 | freemangordon | what? |
| 16:25.50 | freemangordon | it is in transitions.ini |
| 16:26.16 | freemangordon | ok, it is not there by default, but you can add whitelist=... |
| 16:26.25 | freemangordon | in the same way as blacklist |
| 16:26.45 | Pali | I mean if there is list of working application |
| 16:26.57 | freemangordon | aah, |
| 16:26.58 | Pali | so to add them into transitions.ini to cssu |
| 16:27.02 | freemangordon | don;t know |
| 16:27.46 | freemangordon | we can't, until it is fixed |
| 16:28.18 | DocScrutinizer51 | fsckng thumbnailerd heats up my N900 |
| 16:28.36 | DocScrutinizer51 | pretty sane a thing to do on battery |
| 16:31.45 | freemangordon | Pali: would you help me to assess patches in KP/KCSSU? |
| 16:34.54 | Pali | which patches? |
| 16:35.03 | freemangordon | all of them. |
| 16:35.30 | freemangordon | it is needed to decide what will go into CSSU kernel |
| 16:35.31 | Pali | ok |
| 16:35.41 | freemangordon | I'll do a page on wiki |
| 16:35.51 | freemangordon | (or will ask someone to do it :D) |
| 16:36.06 | Pali | btw, I'm waiting for musb patches from dfries |
| 16:36.07 | freemangordon | or if ou have a better idea, I am ok |
| 16:36.14 | Pali | wiki is ok |
| 16:36.23 | freemangordon | for suspend to RAM? |
| 16:36.55 | Pali | yes |
| 16:37.07 | Pali | and rtc fixes |
| 16:37.30 | freemangordon | thats ok, but I dion't think those will have to be included in CSSU kernel. At least not in the initial version |
| 16:37.37 | Pali | ok |
| 16:38.07 | freemangordon | we'd rather taker kernel-cssu as basis, remove bqxxx patches and assess the others |
| 16:38.54 | Pali | in kernel-power there are for kp52 new patches like udf fix |
| 16:39.02 | Pali | which should go to cssu kernel |
| 16:39.24 | freemangordon | i did a quick look ath what remains, maybe ramzswap should be removed too. though I am not absolutely sure, as it is just one .ko more |
| 16:39.42 | Pali | udf fix - from upstream kernel which fixing mouting UDF filesystem on sd card/usb flash disk |
| 16:40.08 | freemangordon | ok, if you say so. that is why we need to make the assessment |
| 16:40.47 | freemangordon | Pali: is it tested enough? if at all? |
| 16:40.51 | *** join/#maemo-ssu arcean (~arcean@aadd169.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 16:41.17 | Pali | kp52 was not released yet.. I do not know many people tested pre release |
| 16:41.42 | freemangordon | Pali: hehe. wouldn;t say that's enough for CSSU |
| 16:41.56 | Pali | I know, but it is good candicate |
| 16:41.59 | freemangordon | we have to be very careful with the kernel stuf |
| 16:42.05 | Pali | *candidate |
| 16:42.10 | freemangordon | *stuff |
| 16:42.12 | freemangordon | :D |
| 16:43.22 | freemangordon | Pali: if we follow the idea of CSSU kernel to be rock stable and KP to be used for bleeding edge stuff, I would say we should keep CSSU kernel 1-2 versions behind KP version in extras |
| 16:43.34 | *** join/#maemo-ssu Milhouse (~irc_milho@Maemo/community/contributor/Milhouse) |
| 16:43.34 | Pali | ok, no problem |
| 16:43.46 | freemangordon | excluding bug fixes of course |
| 16:44.32 | freemangordon | in that regard having udf is a nice thing, but it should reach CSSU when matured enough |
| 16:44.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 16:44.55 | freemangordon | the same with bqxxx,rx_battery, etc |
| 16:45.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod:^2 |
| 16:45.48 | freemangordon | I am still not sure what to do with dsp driver |
| 16:46.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | took 'us' how long - in KP versions - until I err we noticed complete fuckup of I2C kernel driver? |
| 16:47.17 | freemangordon | there was at least one report that TI gstreamer components does not work with it. Though I'd rather take the risk and fix userland |
| 16:47.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | and how long took 'doesn't boot when plugged in to fastcharger', if that's fixed at all yet? |
| 16:47.52 | freemangordon | that way we remove TI's closed source binaries and replace them with gst-dsp |
| 16:48.02 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: it is fixed |
| 16:48.11 | freemangordon | took me a couple of daus :D |
| 16:48.14 | freemangordon | *days |
| 16:48.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | once you noticed the issue, yes |
| 16:49.04 | freemangordon | TBH I don't see the reason to remove hostmode, I am not aware of any issues. The patch as such I mean |
| 16:49.31 | freemangordon | Pali: ^^^ |
| 16:49.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | the patch as h-e-n/paul did it is considered rather safe as it doesn't mess with normal operation of USB |
| 16:50.12 | freemangordon | this is what I am talking about |
| 16:50.55 | freemangordon | Pali's patches will wait until KP52 enter extras. If there is extras by that time :D:D:D |
| 16:51.04 | freemangordon | Pali: ok with that? |
| 16:51.21 | freemangordon | or you consider your patches sfae? |
| 16:51.24 | freemangordon | *safe |
| 16:51.49 | Pali | rx51_battery is safe |
| 16:52.14 | freemangordon | yeah, thats correct. and it is .ko, so np with it |
| 16:52.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least it *shouldn't* ;-) |
| 16:53.05 | freemangordon | yeah. but we all know what it does, so... |
| 16:53.49 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: btw did you test ppoll/pselect? |
| 16:53.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, nobody ever *knows* what a patch does. You might have educated guess |
| 16:54.15 | Pali | freemangordon, what is state of 720p playback? |
| 16:54.19 | Pali | ready to extras? |
| 16:54.21 | Pali | or not? |
| 16:54.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just returned home from robotnik, now chilling pending |
| 16:54.22 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: me and pali know what rx_51battery does |
| 16:54.44 | freemangordon | Pali: kernel side? or userland |
| 16:54.53 | Pali | both |
| 16:55.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm talking about patches like hostmode, not about modules which a pretty defined on what they do when not loaded |
| 16:55.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/ a / are / |
| 16:56.18 | freemangordon | Pali: it is a bit complicated. combination of KP+gst-dsp(maemo5 HD patch)+harmattan codecs is rock stable AFAIK |
| 16:56.44 | arcean | "freemangordon: BTW whitelisting rtcom-messaging-ui does not work as it should, at least here. Lets hope latest patches from arcean fix that" works here with the latest h-d :) |
| 16:56.47 | freemangordon | not 100% sure for other combinations |
| 16:56.57 | freemangordon | arcean: great |
| 16:57.13 | Pali | freemangordon, ok |
| 16:57.31 | freemangordon | arcean: I was about to ask you, but we started another discussion |
| 16:57.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | since Paul messed with the musb_hdrc and related src quite a bit, it's only an assumption he didn't introduce some small typo that might still mess up normal hostmode operation. But I guess that would've shown up meanwhile |
| 16:57.45 | freemangordon | :nod: |
| 16:57.45 | Pali | freemangordon, what about create one deb package which install all needed? (and depends on kernel-feature-..)? |
| 16:57.56 | Pali | and push it to extras? |
| 16:58.11 | freemangordon | Pali: gst-dsp is a system component |
| 16:58.19 | Pali | dpkg-divert |
| 16:58.37 | freemangordon | naah, i'd rather want that in CSSU |
| 16:58.44 | Pali | for extras there is no other solution |
| 16:58.47 | Pali | or CSSU |
| 16:58.57 | freemangordon | after I make it compatible with both old and new codecs |
| 16:59.24 | freemangordon | and will leave to someone else decision where to put harmattan DSP codec nodes |
| 17:00.06 | Pali | ok |
| 17:00.12 | *** join/#maemo-ssu dafox (~dafox@ip51cc571d.speed.planet.nl) |
| 17:00.32 | freemangordon | after all anyone can package and host those |
| 17:00.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I hope you guys keep in mind that this leete new kernel still has to be small enough to co-exist with uBoot in kernel MTD partition |
| 17:00.58 | Pali | last kp52 is still small |
| 17:01.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, fine then |
| 17:01.09 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: asking who? u-boot's maintainer for n900? |
| 17:01.13 | freemangordon | :P |
| 17:01.34 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, but kp is loaded from eMMC, so size is not problem :-) |
| 17:01.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | DAFAQ NO! |
| 17:02.06 | freemangordon | Pali: the point was that it should be small enough to be embedded in u-boot |
| 17:02.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | CSSU kernel is a replacement for stock kernel! |
| 17:02.25 | Pali | yes, it is still small |
| 17:02.32 | freemangordon | *enough* |
| 17:02.49 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: most of the added stuff is modules |
| 17:02.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 17:03.13 | freemangordon | zImage is not increased much in size |
| 17:03.29 | Pali | max zImage is 1832960 |
| 17:03.40 | Pali | in uboot |
| 17:03.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | now that's a word |
| 17:04.00 | freemangordon | we still have some 100k free |
| 17:04.14 | freemangordon | iirc Kp is about 170x KiB |
| 17:04.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | good |
| 17:04.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise we're screwed |
| 17:05.10 | freemangordon | yeah. but so far there is no problem |
| 17:05.48 | freemangordon | and we can always strip stuff to .ko and load it in preinit |
| 17:05.50 | freemangordon | if needed |
| 17:05.56 | Pali | btw I compiled u-boot with thumb without eMMC support and is smaller then nolo |
| 17:06.09 | Pali | anybody who will try to flash it instead nolo? :D |
| 17:06.16 | freemangordon | hehe |
| 17:06.28 | freemangordon | I have only one spare device :P |
| 17:06.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | since I think CSSU-kernel installer should check and correctly detect: plain vanilla stock kernel in MTD, uBoot+stock-kernel in MTD, KP in MTD, and multiboot (I can't believe saying this), and then suggest to install the right replacement for each one of them |
| 17:06.39 | Pali | emmc support is really big, so it must be disabled :-( |
| 17:06.54 | freemangordon | how big? |
| 17:07.06 | freemangordon | and which compiler? |
| 17:07.08 | Pali | about 40kB |
| 17:07.13 | freemangordon | 4.6.2? |
| 17:07.26 | Pali | Ubuntu/Linaro 4.7.2-1ubuntu1 |
| 17:07.42 | freemangordon | hmm... |
| 17:07.45 | freemangordon | I see |
| 17:07.58 | Pali | default cross compiler in ubuntu 12.10 |
| 17:08.06 | freemangordon | ca;t we split u-boot? |
| 17:08.11 | freemangordon | *can't |
| 17:08.22 | Pali | we can use uboot SPL |
| 17:08.38 | Pali | uboot spl is very very small bootloader which can load u-boot |
| 17:08.46 | Pali | from nand, mmc, ... |
| 17:08.57 | Pali | but nand support for rx51 in uboot not working |
| 17:09.05 | freemangordon | I know :P |
| 17:09.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least one of those options, particularly >>uBoot+stock-kernel in MTD<< will imply some size restrictions on CSSU zImage |
| 17:09.15 | Pali | and uboot spl has no output (only serial console) |
| 17:09.35 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: so far there is no proble with zImage size |
| 17:09.39 | freemangordon | *problem |
| 17:09.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I said "good" |
| 17:10.20 | freemangordon | And I don't think there will be, as we are not adding stuff to zImage. usually :) |
| 17:10.21 | Pali | tada! now I got email that rx51 code was included into uboot :-) |
| 17:10.33 | freemangordon | congrats |
| 17:10.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, and for the chanlog: cssu kernel updater should also do a backup of current kernel, by mtd_utils |
| 17:10.53 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: what? |
| 17:11.03 | freemangordon | there is a backup in repos |
| 17:11.12 | freemangordon | aah, *current* |
| 17:11.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I give a shit about repos, you have NFC what weird kernel user got installed |
| 17:11.28 | freemangordon | why is that? |
| 17:11.37 | freemangordon | I have a clue |
| 17:11.51 | freemangordon | you have 4 options for the last 2 years |
| 17:12.06 | *** join/#maemo-ssu dhbiker (~dhbiker@95.87.145.172) |
| 17:12.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's like grub installer creating a backup of MBR |
| 17:12.07 | freemangordon | KP, BFS, stock, and KCSSU lately |
| 17:12.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: bet how much? |
| 17:12.44 | freemangordon | I don;t care if someone is still on KP 40 |
| 17:12.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | that I got a kernel here you never could restore when you nuke it |
| 17:12.53 | Pali | there was lehte's builds... |
| 17:13.03 | freemangordon | how old are they? |
| 17:13.08 | freemangordon | 3 years? |
| 17:13.15 | freemangordon | 2.5 |
| 17:13.19 | Pali | pr1.2 |
| 17:13.35 | freemangordon | may 2010 |
| 17:13.38 | freemangordon | iirc |
| 17:14.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, you got NFC about which kernel user actually got installed, all you can do is trying to detect the ones you know, but there might be mishaps |
| 17:14.30 | Pali | DocScrutinizer05, kerel backup is not possible yet |
| 17:14.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure it is |
| 17:14.42 | freemangordon | that is why I said we should ask those with non-stock kernel |
| 17:14.47 | Pali | there is some header and footer |
| 17:14.57 | Pali | 0xFFFF will have for that support |
| 17:15.02 | Pali | but need to RE it |
| 17:15.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | not on mtd-utils |
| 17:15.21 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: is it raw mtd device? |
| 17:15.25 | Pali | but you cant flash that dump in normal way |
| 17:15.30 | freemangordon | I doubt |
| 17:15.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: check out mtd-utils |
| 17:16.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: nope, but I can flash it using mtdwrite |
| 17:16.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | nandwrite actually |
| 17:16.17 | Pali | but this is not normal way |
| 17:16.21 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: just ask the user when you detect non-stock kernel. Let him decide whether he wants his fancy kernel or CSSU one |
| 17:16.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | save with nanddump, restore with nandwrite |
| 17:16.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: nope - ALWAYS ask user |
| 17:16.58 | Pali | fiasco-image-ask now asking if you are going to change kernel |
| 17:17.06 | freemangordon | ok, ok |
| 17:17.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | tell him what you think you detected and what you suggest and will do when he agrees |
| 17:17.18 | Pali | and you can cancel flashing |
| 17:17.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | but nevertheless - make a backup |
| 17:17.49 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: nandread/write is too hackish way for CSSU stuff to make backup |
| 17:18.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooo |
| 17:18.01 | freemangordon | leave that to user |
| 17:18.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | my |
| 17:18.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | god |
| 17:18.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | suuuure |
| 17:18.50 | freemangordon | if someone has his custom kernel flashed, lets assume he knows what kernel is and where to find the debs if he need to restore it someday |
| 17:19.13 | freemangordon | or... |
| 17:19.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | yesterday you told me users get scared by a kind question, since there's the word kernel in that question. Today you suggest users should do kernel backup by themselves rather than CSSU installed doing it for them |
| 17:19.51 | freemangordon | I was talking about "stock" kernel users |
| 17:20.02 | freemangordon | not about those with custom kernels |
| 17:20.25 | freemangordon | we should always ask those with kernel which is not stock |
| 17:20.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, WTF will you do when user's kernel is detected as stock kernel by error in your cute updater? |
| 17:21.00 | freemangordon | will flash CSSU kernel without asking :P |
| 17:21.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I will shoot you without asking, when you do that on my device |
| 17:21.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 17:21.54 | Pali | you should read ham update changelog |
| 17:22.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | "CSSU comes with great new kernel now. Update detected a standard config on your device and suggests to install the new kernel. If you think update got something wrong about that, or for some reason you want to keep the current kernel config, check the checkbox below" \n "[ ] Don't touch my kernel!" \n "DONE" |
| 17:22.21 | Pali | there will be info about it |
| 17:22.26 | freemangordon | sigh. Not all of the users are like you. There are lots of iphone users that bought n900 by mistake |
| 17:22.32 | freemangordon | not their mistake though |
| 17:22.41 | freemangordon | remember how was n900 advertised |
| 17:22.59 | Pali | so that users does not have any custom kernel with same version string |
| 17:23.05 | *** join/#maemo-ssu crashanddie (~slauwers@bch66-2-88-164-78-176.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 17:23.05 | *** join/#maemo-ssu crashanddie (~slauwers@Maemo/community/contributor/crashanddie) |
| 17:23.12 | Pali | as stock |
| 17:23.15 | freemangordon | exactly |
| 17:23.52 | freemangordon | and if someday CSSU gets spread, those will say "WTF. There is a virus" |
| 17:24.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't give a damn about it, ASK the user, TELL him what you gonna do, give him options where options are any feasible, and goddamn do a BACKUP! |
| 17:24.19 | freemangordon | who put a "kernel" in my phone |
| 17:24.29 | freemangordon | ? |
| 17:24.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: you're a poor commedian |
| 17:24.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | not funny |
| 17:25.01 | freemangordon | actually i'm not, it is your sense of humor that sucks :P |
| 17:25.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe |
| 17:26.28 | freemangordon | anyway, really, you should think about the userbase. me too in that regard |
| 17:26.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: tell them about your MTD restore success, please |
| 17:27.11 | *** join/#maemo-ssu ivgalvez (~quassel@191.pool85-49-215.dynamic.orange.es) |
| 17:27.42 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I don't give a shit what hack has done someone who hangs 24/7 on #maemo and #maemo-ssu IRC |
| 17:28.20 | Pali | and where to store backup? |
| 17:28.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: then we don't have anything to talk about today |
| 17:28.23 | Pali | to rootfs? |
| 17:28.25 | Pali | emmc? |
| 17:28.27 | Pali | mydocs? |
| 17:28.29 | Pali | sd? |
| 17:28.30 | freemangordon | most of the n900 users are not like that |
| 17:28.43 | freemangordon | and CSSU is about them, not about kerio |
| 17:28.46 | Pali | note that only roofs can be mounted |
| 17:28.49 | freemangordon | or you or me |
| 17:28.58 | Pali | other csn be unmounted (connected usb cable...) |
| 17:29.14 | Pali | and adding files to rootfs is not good idea |
| 17:29.31 | Pali | backup of kernel in rootfs is useless |
| 17:29.47 | Pali | if new will not work, there is no (normal) way to restore it |
| 17:30.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems freemangordon thinks CSSU is solely about *his* *notion* of a standard user, while not being able to even tell how CSSU is related to standard users or WTF a standard user is - in *his* notion which seems the only correct notion on this earth |
| 17:30.25 | freemangordon | Pali: I see doc's point as not a fallback it new kernel skrew the things |
| 17:30.37 | freemangordon | but rather if the user wants to restore his kernel later |
| 17:31.33 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: you're still missing my point |
| 17:31.46 | freemangordon | it is my English, I can bet |
| 17:31.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: sorry, my updates write happily to /opt and even MyDocs, every time |
| 17:32.45 | Pali | I think it is up to user, where how and when will backup what |
| 17:33.01 | freemangordon | My point is that there are users who don;t give a shit what kernel is and which kernel version they are using as long as their device works. And even after that. |
| 17:33.21 | freemangordon | you should put those in your equation too |
| 17:33.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | so WHAT? |
| 17:34.30 | freemangordon | asking such user "do you want to flash a new fancy kernel" will scare the shit out of him |
| 17:34.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are even more users who don't gibe a shit if the app is installed from extras or nokia repo, still we got that warning about 3rd party source and you even need to click "I accept" |
| 17:35.06 | freemangordon | because nokia has to do it |
| 17:35.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | so do we |
| 17:35.13 | freemangordon | fo legal reasons |
| 17:35.17 | freemangordon | no |
| 17:35.45 | freemangordon | no for users of "stock" kernel |
| 17:35.55 | freemangordon | even nokia didn't do it |
| 17:36.20 | Pali | you should not ask this for user of stock kernel |
| 17:36.30 | freemangordon | exactly |
| 17:36.41 | Pali | what happen if you unpack new modules, but user decide to stop flashing? |
| 17:36.51 | Pali | you can have unbootable phone... |
| 17:36.59 | Pali | or some modules will not work, ... |
| 17:37.08 | freemangordon | Pali: well, we can prevent that |
| 17:37.24 | freemangordon | if we put that warning in preinst |
| 17:37.42 | freemangordon | ... of some package |
| 17:37.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, we're same point as yesterday. You deny benefit of informing user about the fact that a new kernel will get installed, you deny some users might want an option to stay with stock kernel, you even deny those users who might get scared according to your deep userbase study might not be able to do a backup with nanddump, and you feel happy and self confident about you *never* could fail on all that shite and might *need* a |
| 17:37.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | recovery path afterwords |
| 17:38.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: bullshit |
| 17:38.38 | ivgalvez | if Diablo CSSU can distribute new kernel why shouldn't Fremantle CSSU? |
| 17:38.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | if your procedure allows that, then your procedure is crap |
| 17:38.53 | freemangordon | if the kernel gets screwed you don;t have any other recovery but to flash rootfs |
| 17:39.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: now you!!! |
| 17:39.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're not even faintly discussing this |
| 17:39.47 | ivgalvez | you are discussing ways to avoid flashing a kernel |
| 17:39.57 | ivgalvez | why would you need to provide that |
| 17:40.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's about letting user know that we do, or hide it away from him and not offer him the options that are immanent in the process |
| 17:40.13 | freemangordon | Nokia do it in that way, I don;t see any reason to di it better than Nokia by asking those with non-stock kernal and flashing stock replacement without asking those on stock |
| 17:40.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're rather insane |
| 17:40.51 | freemangordon | s/to di/why not do/ |
| 17:41.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's next? cssu-cherry, since Nokia also did it? |
| 17:41.07 | ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 can you provide any examle of Linux distribution that ask user about installing a new kernel? |
| 17:41.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | ALL desktop updaters ask user about each package they update |
| 17:41.48 | ivgalvez | actually, what you are proposing is anew feature |
| 17:41.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | even friggin apper |
| 17:42.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, sorry guys I'm fed up with this, right after not even getting my shoes off when coming home from daywork. |
| 17:46.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: kernel update is a new feature, informing user about the fact that kernel gets updated is the only sane thing to do, and allowing powerusers to say "pretty please nope, don't touch that stuff, I did something you stupid installer have no idea of and I prefer to deal with the issue later, manually" is not an insane scaring of dumbarses but the most normal way any software should be designed. When there's an option, there |
| 17:46.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | has to be a way for user to decide on that option |
| 17:47.14 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: how is the kernel different from glibc, gtk, hildon-desktop, etc... |
| 17:47.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | and please stop telling me we scare away N900 users by politely and kindly informing them they have a checkbox below to stop kernel update - especially when a lengthy ecxplanation follows abotu the detailed consequences |
| 17:48.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: if you don't know, I guess you will find out by a few days of pondering |
| 17:48.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | or not |
| 17:48.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I'm afk now |
| 17:48.50 | freemangordon | anyway, this is yet to be decided, stay tuned |
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| 17:51.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're demonstrating an annoying disrespect for your user base |
| 17:52.11 | ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 I have just updated from Ubuntu 12.04 to 12.10 and I miss any message about a new kernel being installed |
| 17:52.26 | ivgalvez | s/miss/missed( |
| 17:52.35 | ivgalvez | s/miss/missed/ |
| 17:52.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah you missed it |
| 17:52.47 | freemangordon | ubuntu? aah, you're not true Linux user :P |
| 17:53.11 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I have (ubuntu) on my desktop, there is no special message for the kernel |
| 17:53.12 | ivgalvez | well in fact it was Kubuntu |
| 17:53.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's in the list of updated packages which every user can open and scrutinize |
| 17:53.26 | freemangordon | it is treated in the same way as all of the other packages |
| 17:53.41 | freemangordon | the same goes for -mp thing |
| 17:53.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh |
| 17:53.58 | freemangordon | you can open details in HAM and check what's goingto be updated |
| 17:54.38 | Pali | and we can also append changelog |
| 17:54.47 | Pali | to that details info |
| 17:54.56 | ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, you know latest update in CSSU broke my busybox-power installation and I had to reinstall it manually |
| 17:54.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm honestly not going to continue this debate about the imaginary user getting scared by a requeter, The users I know rather klick OK on each requester without even bothering to read |
| 17:54.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and ETX |
| 17:55.08 | ivgalvez | I should have been warned |
| 17:55.16 | freemangordon | good point |
| 17:55.55 | ivgalvez | "I'll shoot whoever wiped out my busybox-power" |
| 17:56.09 | freemangordon | merlin1991: run away :D |
| 17:56.17 | ivgalvez | :D |
| 17:56.22 | freemangordon | ivgalvez has a shotgun |
| 17:56.47 | ivgalvez | look to the quotes :D |
| 17:56.55 | freemangordon | i looked |
| 17:56.58 | freemangordon | ;) |
| 18:00.43 | freemangordon | Pali: so, rx51 is upstreamed in u-boot? |
| 18:01.24 | merlin1991 | hides in the austrian woods |
| 18:01.48 | freemangordon | Pali: I thing that deserves a post on TMO |
| 18:01.54 | freemangordon | *think |
| 18:03.23 | Pali | freemangordon, it was added to uboot TI branch |
| 18:03.37 | Pali | it will be merged into master in next version (maybe) |
| 18:03.52 | Pali | but u-boot bootmenu was not upstreamed yet |
| 18:04.00 | freemangordon | aah |
| 18:04.08 | merlin1991 | ivgalvez: you got warned when you installed busybox-power |
| 18:04.13 | merlin1991 | it's entirely your fault ;) |
| 18:04.52 | ivgalvez | :D |
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| 18:06.33 | ivgalvez | merlin1991 I assume that no changes with the administration interface for repositories |
| 18:07.52 | merlin1991 | yeah |
| 18:08.17 | merlin1991 | I didn't check tbh, but nobody contacted me, so I guess it wasn't looked into |
| 18:12.13 | merlin1991 | ivgalvez: I just checked, nothing |
| 18:17.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | (([2012-11-02 18:55:08] <ivgalvez> I should have been warned)) Absolutely 110% correct. Though you already got warned by a requester when you installed busybox-power. Too bad it didn't scare you away from the whole thing ;-D |
| 18:17.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | you also got warned when you installed CSSU-T |
| 18:19.22 | Lava_Croft | what is the biggest problem with bb-power? |
| 18:19.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | but nobody is going to warn you before replacing your stock kernel by something incompatible to your fcam modules, if we accept freemangordon's notion on how to kick ass of "stupid standard users". Hell, you'll not even have a chance to opt out, other than uninstalling MP |
| 18:20.25 | MrPingu | Yes those fcam-drivers |
| 18:20.44 | MrPingu | the version from extras-devel or testing are working |
| 18:20.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | replace that by whatever reason you might not even dream of, for a user wanting to stay with stock kernel |
| 18:21.10 | MrPingu | can't these go into extras then? |
| 18:21.14 | ivgalvez | fcam drivers work with KP |
| 18:21.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | bwahahaha |
| 18:22.15 | MrPingu | I know but not those in extras |
| 18:22.27 | MrPingu | Only in extras-devel |
| 18:22.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | FAQ #1 with KP: "my camera doesn't work anymore. What shall I do" |
| 18:22.59 | MrPingu | answer: enable extras-devel and install fcam-drivers |
| 18:23.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: read about `man modprobe` and vermagic |
| 18:23.25 | MrPingu | but we don't want to enable extras-devel for "user" do we? |
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| 18:23.53 | Lava_Croft | im not sure if extras-devel right is actually really the same extras-devel as it used to be |
| 18:23.59 | Lava_Croft | right now* |
| 18:24.18 | ivgalvez | promote fcam drivers then |
| 18:24.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | we don't want to forcefeed a new kernel to all cssu users unconditionally, since we got the opportunity to make it optional |
| 18:24.24 | Lava_Croft | i mean, does stuff actually get promoted these days? |
| 18:24.29 | ivgalvez | "we" |
| 18:24.33 | ivgalvez | ? |
| 18:25.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | lemme rephrase |
| 18:25.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | we - the users of CSSU - don't want to get forcefed a new kernel to all cssu users unconditionally, since we got the opportunity to make it optional |
| 18:25.59 | Lava_Croft | if the kernel is not needed by the CSSU to function, you are correct |
| 18:26.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | it is not needed |
| 18:26.23 | Lava_Croft | does it qualify as an open-source replacement? |
| 18:26.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 18:26.39 | MrPingu | ivgalvez, remember sixwheeledbeast and I started to sort out extrasf-devel? |
| 18:26.43 | Lava_Croft | simple case make it optional then |
| 18:26.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | it qualifies as a bugfix, nothing else |
| 18:27.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly my argument, it's *optional* |
| 18:27.10 | Lava_Croft | wasnt this 'tried' with that camera ui too? |
| 18:27.21 | Lava_Croft | forcing users to upgrade to it via cssu |
| 18:27.27 | Lava_Croft | or is this a completely different kind of case |
| 18:27.29 | ivgalvez | MrPingu I have done a lot of review in extras-testing as well, the problem is that actually we don't control repositories |
| 18:27.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | but the guys here don't even want to consider *asking* user about whether she wants to opt OUT |
| 18:27.37 | ivgalvez | administration is in Nemeind hands |
| 18:28.16 | Lava_Croft | well, apart from the sake of 'correctly' handling optional stuff like this, is there really a reason *not* to install KP with cssu? |
| 18:28.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | Lava_Croft: nope, it's basically all the same old story as with camera-ui, just this time it's about *kernel* |
| 18:28.53 | Lava_Croft | i mean, asking if the user wants to install the kernel just because you want to be correct in asking the user is a bit, well, silly |
| 18:28.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | and this time we already made it optional |
| 18:29.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | by matter of dependencies |
| 18:29.30 | Lava_Croft | but overall, stuff like this kernel and that new camera ui should be optional and have to be enabled by the user |
| 18:29.36 | Lava_Croft | via a nice tickbox thingy, you know |
| 18:29.49 | Lava_Croft | kind of exactly as you desire |
| 18:30.02 | freemangordon | Lava_Croft: this new kernel, along with this new glibc are fixing a very nasty bug |
| 18:30.24 | ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 you can insist as much as you want. Nokia kernel has bugs that are fixed in KP and those fixes must be distributed to normal users |
| 18:30.26 | freemangordon | and if bugfixing is optional for CSSU, I am speechless |
| 18:30.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | but freemangordon claims it "will scare hell out of users" to get a screen telling "we have a quite huge update this time. Click 'advanced' below to configure, if you feel you need to do that" |
| 18:30.33 | ivgalvez | normal users don't care about kernels |
| 18:30.42 | Lava_Croft | freemangordon: but KP also comes with a lot of other things |
| 18:30.47 | Lava_Croft | that go far beyond fixing nasty bug |
| 18:30.53 | freemangordon | Lava_Croft: sure, so what |
| 18:31.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: how arrogant can you get? |
| 18:31.28 | freemangordon | what bad does a couple of .ko modules sitting in rootfs |
| 18:31.29 | MrPingu | Whats the defenition of normal user? |
| 18:31.31 | Lava_Croft | freemangordon: then use a kernel that only fixes those bugs? |
| 18:31.33 | ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, looking to a mirror? |
| 18:31.40 | MrPingu | besides eating space? nothing |
| 18:31.49 | freemangordon | exactly |
| 18:31.58 | Lava_Croft | freemangordon: i dont know how nasty the bug is tho |
| 18:32.13 | MrPingu | but since space is very precious in rootfs |
| 18:32.19 | freemangordon | google for ppoll/pselect arm |
| 18:32.24 | freemangordon | Lava_Croft: ^^^ |
| 18:32.42 | MrPingu | (silently pointing to bb-p discussion) :P |
| 18:32.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | the 70% non-normal CSSU users don't count when it comes to omitting a sane way to decide on whether power users want or don't want to install that kernel? You, the evil emperor, are going to decide for all your people that they have to use that new kernel? sane, for sure |
| 18:33.17 | freemangordon | MrPingu: this is not a valid argument for me (rootfs space) |
| 18:33.21 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: stop that |
| 18:33.34 | ivgalvez | OK, now that you are talking about emperor, let's do a voting |
| 18:33.44 | freemangordon | I said at least 3 times that we should ask those with non-stock kernel |
| 18:34.07 | MrPingu | Freemangordon: me neither but I can imagine there are users |
| 18:34.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez, the evil emperor, commands his people to vote |
| 18:34.28 | freemangordon | hmm, where is estel? |
| 18:34.33 | freemangordon | or wait |
| 18:34.47 | freemangordon | he has stolen doc's nick |
| 18:35.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: democracy is about protection of minorities |
| 18:35.14 | Lava_Croft | i think im not qualified to judge this bug's severity |
| 18:35.39 | MrPingu | DocScrutinizer05: democracy is the dictatorship of the majority ;) |
| 18:35.48 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: and those minorities, i.e the ones with custom kernel will get protected by the question"do you want CSSU kenel" flashed |
| 18:35.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope, definitely not, unless we're on #maemo-ssu |
| 18:35.59 | ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05: we are going to have a lot of fun with you during next Coucnil period :D |
| 18:36.29 | freemangordon | MrPingu: :nod: |
| 18:36.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: noipe sir, your logic is flawed |
| 18:36.39 | freemangordon | no, it is not |
| 18:37.23 | MrPingu | Well, why not make a poll in TMO, the most "users" are there |
| 18:37.29 | Lava_Croft | hello this is going nowhere, DocScrutinizer05 and freemangordon |
| 18:37.39 | freemangordon | Lava_Croft: as usual :D |
| 18:37.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | I could elaborate on your stereotypes of minorieties, how you pick one and ignore the other. But I know this won't help |
| 18:37.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | since your argument of scared user been silly and made up just enough |
| 18:38.40 | MrPingu | You both have different insight of what an user possibly *might* think |
| 18:38.56 | ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05: in the meantime, there is an important Council meeting taking place... |
| 18:38.58 | MrPingu | Kernel sounds very deep |
| 18:39.11 | freemangordon | MrPingu: and hot sounds glibc then? |
| 18:39.14 | freemangordon | *how |
| 18:39.23 | MrPingu | for me as deep as kernel |
| 18:39.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | "there's an option for XY, but we better don't offer it to user by *ANY* means, since user for sure would kill himself because we scared him so much" <- rethink!!! |
| 18:39.35 | MrPingu | but for normal user not as "deep" as kernel |
| 18:39.38 | freemangordon | because the bug in question is fixed partially in the kernel and partially in glibc |
| 18:40.04 | ivgalvez | fremangordon, there are even more important fixes in current KP |
| 18:40.13 | freemangordon | ivgalvez: I know |
| 18:40.23 | ivgalvez | smartreflex is number 1 for me |
| 18:40.33 | freemangordon | well, we'll not enable that |
| 18:40.48 | freemangordon | recently a guy reported SR unstable on his device |
| 18:41.01 | ivgalvez | that's unfortunate |
| 18:41.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's normal |
| 18:41.15 | freemangordon | but anyway that is irrelevant to what we discuss |
| 18:41.28 | freemangordon | well, it could be that his device is just faulty, but still |
| 18:41.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | since those messing with SR usually have a 15% clue what it's all about |
| 18:41.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | at best |
| 18:41.58 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: you're getting more arrogant that I can take |
| 18:42.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha |
| 18:42.43 | freemangordon | just lower you attitude a bit, ok? |
| 18:43.30 | freemangordon | I don;t think we are here to measure who's longer |
| 18:43.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not the one arrogantly depriving users of the freedom of choice, by supposing they'd get scared to death by whatever nice phrased question I could come up with |
| 18:44.07 | ivgalvez | freemangordon, you have demonstrated already to have the longer one... |
| 18:44.15 | freemangordon | hehe |
| 18:44.46 | ivgalvez | in a real meritocracy your word should be listened with respect |
| 18:44.53 | freemangordon | anyway, I got to go, GF will beat me to death if I stay here for even one more minute |
| 18:45.10 | ivgalvez | go now! |
| 18:45.14 | freemangordon | night, bbl |
| 18:45.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | aha, respect for depriving me of any choice regarding installing that kernel, suuuure |
| 18:45.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not even here, when I ponder again |
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