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| 05:10.47 | freemangordon | merlin1991: DocScrutinizer05: childspin just hanged here |
| 05:11.43 | freemangordon | on device, running HAM update in foreground |
| 05:17.02 | freemangordon | merlin1991: the very reliable way to make it lock is: run childspin -> opeh HAM -> click on menu -> application catalogs -> rotate the device |
| 05:17.58 | freemangordon | usually it hangs on the first rotation, but may take 2 or 3 |
| 05:32.47 | freemangordon | kernel-cssu3, not stock kernel, so BTB clear may affect it. |
| 05:32.59 | freemangordon | though I doubt |
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| 06:28.39 | Pali | jonwil, netlink is standard way how to communicate between userspace and kernel... it is socket orientated communication, so you need to create "protocol" how are data sent. and nokia created a lot of non standard protocols (e.g how to send NVS wifi data to kernel driver...) |
| 06:29.00 | jonwil | yeah thats what I thought |
| 06:29.17 | jonwil | Is there a better way to do nvs->kernel? |
| 06:29.47 | Pali | wl1271 (*71*) has NVS data in firmware file |
| 06:30.05 | Pali | so it is loaded as firmware data |
| 06:30.23 | jonwil | is that the way the N900 should go? |
| 06:30.37 | jonwil | or should we stick with WL1251_NL_CMD_NVS_PUSH? |
| 06:30.39 | Pali | I think that wl1251 driver can use this same way too |
| 06:31.02 | Pali | wl12XX share more code in kernel |
| 06:32.01 | Pali | look here: http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/wl12xx/calibrator |
| 06:32.13 | Pali | this is tool which create NVS data as firmware file |
| 06:32.27 | Pali | this also add mac address into NVS data |
| 06:32.53 | Pali | and then kernel can use it when module wl1251 is loaded |
| 06:34.14 | Pali | the right way should be: when updating kernel driver, postinst script will call that tool (maybe patched to read data from CAL) and it will create proper NVS firmware file |
| 06:34.35 | Pali | and then wl1251-cal can be deleted, because kernel have all data in firmware file |
| 06:35.26 | Pali | and for regional wifi settings (e.g. enabled channels): for linux kernel is cfg80211 driver which regulate it |
| 06:35.47 | Pali | from userspace you can change country with program "iw" |
| 06:36.08 | jonwil | ok, well what wl1251-cal does is this: |
| 06:37.10 | jonwil | firstly is asks cell network for country code |
| 06:37.24 | jonwil | then it compares it against stored list to determine if its "FCC country" |
| 06:37.40 | jonwil | then it reads NVS from CAL |
| 06:38.10 | jonwil | makes 4 changes to NVS data depending on whether its FCC country or not |
| 06:38.43 | jonwil | and pushes that to driver via WL1251_NL_CMD_NVS_PUSH |
| 06:39.02 | jonwil | then it reads MAC address from CAL |
| 06:40.34 | jonwil | MAC address is sent to driver via SIOCSIFHWADDR |
| 06:40.48 | jonwil | it also uses NL80211_ATTR_REG_ALPHA2 to set country code |
| 06:41.58 | jonwil | right now my plan is to clone wl1251-cal except that it wont use systeminfo and it will pull country value from CAL (same place as sysinfo-tool gets /certs/ccc/pp/wlan-channel from) |
| 06:42.25 | jonwil | just like I did with bluetooth-cal |
| 06:43.35 | jonwil | I think best answer is to:1.Replace non-standard bluetooth hwaddr interface with something standard |
| 06:43.39 | jonwil | 2. |
| 06:43.51 | jonwil | wait ignore that :P |
| 06:44.24 | jonwil | 2.Write tool to read NVS from CAL and apply country change based on value of wlan-channel |
| 06:44.38 | jonwil | 3.Make wl1251 driver use stored firmware nvs |
| 06:44.59 | jonwil | i.e. tool at #2 would produce identical NVS to wl1251-cal |
| 06:45.16 | jonwil | then 4.Write new tool to read bluetooth and wifi MAC plus country code and send all 3 to driver |
| 06:45.22 | jonwil | drivers |
| 06:45.55 | jonwil | but yeah I will write the wl1251-cal clone |
| 06:45.58 | jonwil | and others can go from there |
| 06:46.06 | jonwil | will also write the libcal clone |
| 06:46.10 | jonwil | at some point |
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| 06:50.47 | jonwil | the goal is to replace wl1251-cal and bluetooth-sysinfo (and possibly libcal) on Fremantle and also to replace sysinfod-rx51, libcxal-rx-51-bin, libppu-bin, libwl1251-bin and wl1251-cal-bin on MeeGo & friends |
| 06:54.17 | Pali | jownil, for setting country code, you can use standard iw tool: "iw reg set US" (change US) |
| 06:54.37 | Pali | jonwil, look at linux macchanger program |
| 06:54.54 | Pali | how it set mac address and check if same interface is also for bluetooth |
| 06:55.13 | jonwil | ok, well I will clone the bits and someone else can find a way to make them do things the Right Way(tm) |
| 06:55.24 | Pali | maybe asking on linux bluez mailinglist how to change mac address of bluetooth is good idea |
| 06:56.01 | freemangordon | hcitool? |
| 07:02.43 | Pali | maybe, hcitool can change mac address, I do not know |
| 07:02.49 | Pali | or hciconfig... |
| 07:03.21 | Pali | freemangordon, for vkb see: https://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/ukeyboard/ and http://repo.or.cz/w/ukeyboard.git |
| 07:03.24 | freemangordon | hmm, not sure whether it was hcitool or hciconfig :D |
| 07:03.38 | Pali | this tool can create binary vkb layout |
| 07:04.02 | Pali | there are both: hcitool and hciconfig |
| 07:04.18 | freemangordon | Pali: I know ukeyboard as I am using it, the tools there is for maem4, iirc jonwil fixed it for fremantle |
| 07:04.40 | Pali | ukeyboard working on fremantle too |
| 07:04.57 | Pali | I'm using it for Slovak qwerty layout |
| 07:05.02 | jonwil | You want http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=79899 |
| 07:05.05 | Pali | http://maemo.org/packages/view/ukeyboard/ |
| 07:05.11 | jonwil | Thats the best way to do the vkb on N900 |
| 07:05.24 | freemangordon | I know, I am using it for bulgarian :) |
| 07:05.43 | freemangordon | Pali: I was talking about RE of .vkb files |
| 07:05.54 | Pali | jonwil, it that your code included in ukeyboard? |
| 07:05.57 | jonwil | no |
| 07:06.03 | jonwil | I have nothing to do with ukeyboard |
| 07:06.06 | freemangordon | there is a python/perrl/whatever script flying over the inet |
| 07:06.13 | freemangordon | jonwil: ^^^ |
| 07:06.30 | jonwil | my stuff in that tmo thread contains all the info one needs on the vkb format |
| 07:06.43 | freemangordon | jonwil: I remember I sent that to you, and you fixed it for fremantle .vkb format |
| 07:06.43 | jonwil | including a fremantle-compatible version of the aformentioned perl script |
| 07:06.49 | freemangordon | jonwil: :nod: |
| 07:06.50 | jonwil | yeah |
| 07:07.35 | Pali | I will ask roman if he used your code or not |
| 07:07.37 | jonwil | so yeah that stuff contains decode script, vkb format doc plus code to generate vkb file using libimlayout |
| 07:07.48 | Pali | we do not need more implementations of vkb format... |
| 07:08.27 | freemangordon | Pali: vkbrenderer.so is the one responsible of reading that format and actually displaying the UI |
| 07:08.45 | jonwil | libimlayout is what parses the vkb file format |
| 07:08.58 | jonwil | vkbrenderer is what displays the results recieved from libimlayout |
| 07:09.22 | freemangordon | though not sure if it receiveswhat to display from upper/lower layers |
| 07:09.27 | freemangordon | jonwil: :nod: |
| 07:09.53 | zeq | merlin1991: I should have mentioned having HAM running is a very good way of putting enough load on the system to open up the race window. |
| 07:10.00 | zeq | morning guys :) |
| 07:10.10 | freemangordon | zeq: morning |
| 07:10.16 | Pali | ukeyboard has vkb-format-v3 |
| 07:10.36 | freemangordon | zeq: but not enough, it is the rotation that triggers the bug in 90% of the cases |
| 07:10.58 | jonwil | bah, maemo.org is being annoying |
| 07:11.03 | freemangordon | Pali: so? |
| 07:11.41 | freemangordon | jonwil: don't you like the pink nailpolish? |
| 07:11.59 | freemangordon | it is lumia after all, what color do you expect :D |
| 07:12.28 | zeq | freemangordon: ok, but the point is running the test on an idle system minimizes the race window. |
| 07:12.45 | jonwil | ukeyboard is not using my code as far as I can see |
| 07:13.04 | freemangordon | zeq: agree |
| 07:13.24 | zeq | it probably depends on time spent in kernel(maybe rotation triggers some long latency kernel code?) |
| 07:13.45 | freemangordon | zeq: maybe |
| 07:14.01 | zeq | not that it really matters :) |
| 07:14.07 | freemangordon | but it really does nto matter |
| 07:14.08 | freemangordon | yeah |
| 07:14.41 | Pali | I can write Roman (now maintainer of ukeyboard) to update code |
| 07:14.57 | freemangordon | Pali: to add new keyboards or what? |
| 07:14.58 | Pali | ukeyboard has rewritten control panel aplet |
| 07:15.09 | Pali | to update documentation |
| 07:15.25 | Pali | jonwil has some more info about format |
| 07:15.37 | freemangordon | BTW ukeyboard has an annoying bug (from user POV) |
| 07:16.10 | freemangordon | once installed there are no more messages "input layout has been switched to ..." |
| 07:16.18 | jonwil | my gen_vkb script is as close as its possible to get to the way Nokia does it |
| 07:16.28 | jonwil | not script, binary |
| 07:16.42 | jonwil | I found gen_vkb binary for older Maemo, reverse engineered it and then exended it for Fremantle |
| 07:16.57 | jonwil | Nokia obviously has gen_vkb for Fremantle internally |
| 07:17.01 | jonwil | real one that is |
| 07:17.18 | freemangordon | maybe I missed the point, but what is the relation between vkbrenderer and ukeyboard/gen_vkb? |
| 07:19.02 | freemangordon | anyway, I gtg, see ya |
| 07:21.00 | jonwil | basically gen_vkb generates a .vkb file of the keyboard layout |
| 07:21.17 | jonwil | then libimlayout0 parses that and hands the data off to vkbrenderer |
| 07:21.19 | jonwil | which then renders it |
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| 08:59.54 | kerio | idea: rotation lock in the powerkey menu, and out of the status menu |
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| 17:09.35 | kerio | ok, i have the operator name problem again |
| 17:10.04 | kerio | jonwil: *poke?* |
| 17:10.21 | kerio | i can test the bugfix i guess |
| 17:15.13 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: you too |
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| 17:18.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | eh? |
| 17:18.03 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: i'm ready for more cbsms tests |
| 17:18.13 | kerio | with the fixed version |
| 17:18.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | mhm |
| 17:18.27 | kerio | that i don't know how to install and/or compile |
| 17:18.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas i'm not familiar with the actual implementation, just contributed some architecture |
| 17:19.05 | kerio | k |
| 17:19.25 | kerio | should i ask jonwil then? (was it him?) |
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| 17:19.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably for specifics about the current binary/pkg you better ask pali or jonwil |
| 17:19.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 17:19.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: |
| 17:20.29 | kerio | jonwil! |
| 17:20.37 | kerio | why pali? :o |
| 17:20.42 | kerio | he's everywhere |
| 17:21.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | he did some fixes to the last version before the assumed jonwil bleeding edge one |
| 17:21.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | since jonwil isn't really available that frequently |
| 17:22.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | though he's logged in right now, so odds are he'll answer in a minute |
| 17:22.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: for now you could provide apt-cache policy |
| 17:22.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | for that thing |
| 17:23.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we know what you're using and what we're talking bout |
| 17:24.25 | jonwil | I am here but busy trying to debug with gdb on my phone keyboard (cant use ssh because wl1251-cal work requires wifi to be offline when running the binary) |
| 17:24.40 | jonwil | the good news is that the mac address seems to be being set correctly |
| 17:25.18 | jonwil | ioctl() isn't returning an error |
| 17:25.50 | kerio | what's wl1251-cal? |
| 17:26.02 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: k, one sec |
| 17:27.10 | kerio | Installed: 0.2 |
| 17:27.24 | jonwil | wl1251-cal handles settings for the wl1251 wifi chip |
| 17:27.25 | kerio | for operator-name-cbs-widget |
| 17:27.28 | jonwil | i.e. setting mac address |
| 17:27.38 | kerio | oh, in the proper way? |
| 17:27.41 | jonwil | and dealing with regulatory domain |
| 17:27.52 | kerio | instead of using the l33t drivers |
| 17:27.58 | kerio | i see |
| 17:28.10 | kerio | i'd like to be in japan, yes |
| 17:28.14 | jonwil | wl1251-cal is closed source from nokia, I am currently doing something that does the same thing as wl1251-cal from nokia except open |
| 17:28.20 | jonwil | open source |
| 17:28.34 | jonwil | then someone else can make it use better interfaces and not the nokia-specific stuff |
| 17:31.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: nice stuff, anyway could you spare a few minutes to direct kerio towards properly exploiting the bug just showing up again in his operator-name-cbs-widget? We eventually like to get that fixed, and he's willing to help and just can reproduce the issue |
| 17:32.50 | kerio | "sure sure, but fix this bug first" |
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| 19:16.31 | *** join/#maemo-ssu trumee (~parul@188-222-165-248.zone13.bethere.co.uk) |
| 19:19.28 | jonwil | ok, wl1251-cal is DONE :) |
| 19:20.02 | kerio | :D |
| 19:20.28 | kerio | should cssu allow manual configuration of regulatory domains' |
| 19:20.30 | kerio | ? |
| 19:20.43 | jonwil | thats up to CSSU |
| 19:23.40 | kerio | i wasn't necessarily asking you c: |
| 19:24.57 | *** join/#maemo-ssu BCMM (~user@unaffiliated/bcmm) |
| 19:26.04 | jonwil | :) |
| 19:27.12 | *** join/#maemo-ssu _rd (~rd@p57B4978F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:29.09 | kerio | no, :ↄ |
| 19:29.37 | *** join/#maemo-ssu NIN101 (~NIN@p5DD28A92.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:46.33 | zeq | jonwil: you mean via iw? |
| 19:46.53 | zeq | sorry, *kerio* |
| 19:48.51 | kerio | zeq: yeah |
| 19:48.52 | kerio | maybe |
| 19:49.27 | kerio | but it would be better if it was automatically set to JP |
| 19:49.36 | kerio | or, rather, configurable in a plaintext file |
| 19:49.48 | kerio | is CAL signed? |
| 19:55.18 | kerio | ugh, why can't everything be like fmtxd :( |
| 19:55.39 | kerio | i mean, i suppose it kinda is, you can just use the backported drivers, but they have a crappy powersaving |
| 20:32.17 | *** join/#maemo-ssu infobot (~infobot@rikers.org) |
| 20:32.17 | *** topic/#maemo-ssu is Maemo Community Seamless Software Update "CSSU" channel, http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU | Known bugs: http://j.mp/communityssu-bugs | Channel logs: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/ | Sources: http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/ | Latest version (testing): 21.2011.38-1Tmaemo4.1; (stable): 21.2011.38-1Smaemo3 |
| 20:32.17 | *** mode/#maemo-ssu [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 20:44.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | ABI: Application Binary Interface - the interface on binary level used between binaries to talk to each other. ABI compatibility means binary A doesn't notice *any* change in the interface of binary B it connects to |
| 20:46.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | compare API compatibility which defines a compliance of abstract definition of a interface as used by compilers at build time, so a *new* binary A though built from same sources would still connect without problems to the possibly changed ABI of binary B since both use the same API still |
| 20:48.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | to connect to the funny discussion 24h ago here, which managed so elegantly to declare my 2h in garden at BBQ as a 1 week non-availability, by sending out invitations in obscure channels and 5 minutes in advance, and also spreading FUD about my availability |
| 20:50.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm frankly assuming and stating that several attendees of yesterday's discussion did this on pretty purpose, to bully me out |
| 20:51.22 | kerio | grabs some popcorn |
| 20:52.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | while the experise and less sneaky half knew about my position already and also knew it's in line with theirs |
| 20:54.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, btw, estel_ is on holiday for the next 24 months, don't bother to invite or ask him about anything, we already know what he will say anyway (and we know we don't give a *sh*t*) |
| 20:55.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | assumptions assumptions assumptions. And FUD. Is all of that always just in best intent? I doubt it |
| 20:56.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>problem with 3rd party modules was *always* purely theoretical one. I.e. "there may exist, in some ancient vault, a module compiled in 3000 before christ..." |
| 20:57.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>(from my limited knowledge common folk POV, feel free to correct) |
| 20:57.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>i.e. such situation is purely theoretical, just for sake of doing so, no practical problems risk, ever. 0% chance. |
| 20:57.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>(from my limited knowledge common folk POV, feel free to correct) |
| 20:58.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | WTF?! |
| 20:58.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks a lot really for this elaborated expertise |
| 20:58.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | now we're all a lot wiser |
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| 21:00.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | dear estel, your statements are exactly "purely theoretical, just for sake of doing so" |
| 21:03.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | the possibility of existing custom kernel modules out there that will break with new kernel due to loss of ABI compliance is "purely theoretical, just for sake of doing so" while assuming a problem out of a very rare race that's not even been demontrated by testcode on stock kernel is a welcome argument to push your own ideas. Now THAT'S scientific and honest for sure |
| 21:03.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | and this guy denigrates my merits |
| 21:04.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | >:-( |
| 21:05.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | homestly when you got estel on your side arguing for you, prepare for failure even when your positions and arguments been good |
| 21:05.12 | kerio | kinda unrelated: was ABI-compatibility kept between nokia upgrades to the kernel? |
| 21:05.26 | kerio | were those the same kernel version? |
| 21:05.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope |
| 21:06.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's a direct result of the facts I quoted why it's impossible to keep ABI compatibilty between kernel versions (usually) |
| 21:07.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw I'm not absolutely sure if we've seen a kernel update with any PR upgrade |
| 21:07.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | so maybe Nokia didn't dare to push a new kernel |
| 21:07.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | they might however have fixed some modules |
| 21:08.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | without pushing a new kernel |
| 21:08.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you want to know for sure, you need to run a md4sum across kernel fiasco segment of PR1.0 image |
| 21:09.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and even then you might get wrong idea, since already a later compile time will change the md5sum while it usually should keep ABI stable when *nothing* changed in kernel sources |
| 21:12.46 | kerio | -20094101-0m5 for 1.0, -20103103-0m5 for >=1.2, says maemo.org |
| 21:13.02 | kerio | but it's probably not a version change |
| 21:13.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | but NB I'm maybe enough of a kernel hacker to look into musb_hdrc and spot some things to patch to make USB hostmode work, but I'm not the kernel guru to tell you every detail about symbol binding and early / late addr linking in kernel->module ABI |
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| 21:14.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | if it works similar to usual .so then there's a table of verbatim symbols with some tagging of their types, and as long as that srays unchanged, basic ABI compatibility should stay intact |
| 21:15.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | then you just have to cope with, or override, vermagic and hope for it to not make your system go *boom* |
| 21:16.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I could as well be completely off the lane here |
| 21:17.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | and honestly I didn't get it why fmg got so upset when I suggested to run his new allegedly compatible kernel against stock modules. After all it *should* work, minus for the vermagic, for all I know |
| 21:18.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the end it's just a question of parameters on stack and in registers, and those shouldn't have changed, no? |
| 21:19.31 | kerio | doesn't know that much about the kernel |
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| 21:33.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | do you think estel knows more than you? |
| 21:37.18 | kerio | meh |
| 21:44.51 | *** join/#maemo-ssu zeq (~s_j_newbu@178.102.107.66) |
| 22:14.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Estel_so, gentlemans, do we have any concerns about this point? someone wantg to present opposite arguments? Or are we trying to convince already convinced people? :) |
| 22:14.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | incredible how this guy always tries to push his own tiny horizon and topic and POV |
| 22:15.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | instead of shutting up and listening when experts talk |
| 22:20.14 | *** join/#maemo-ssu zeq (~s_j_newbu@178.100.101.84) |
| 22:56.19 | zeq | IRC doesn't do well with intermittent connectivity! DocScrutinizer05: If I owe you an apology for my part in yesterday's discussion, you have it. I particularly wanted to discuss the future plans for updating (e)glibc (outside of CSSU) and maintaining compatibility with CSSU/stock, and I actually really wanted you there, especially to come up with the difficult arguments and objections. At least from me there was no intention of spreading FUD or makin |
| 22:56.19 | zeq | g unwarranted assumptions, you're just a good experienced engineer and know the pitfalls. You are needed to keep everybody honest. |
| 23:02.59 | Raimu | Haha. |
| 23:03.14 | Raimu | strongly agrees |
| 23:03.27 | Raimu | With the last phrasing, at least |
| 23:17.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | zeq: your position and rationale was without any concern from my side |
| 23:19.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm happy I made it til http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/%23maemo-ssu.2012-08-02.log.html#t2012-08-02T22:20:37 now and still seems common sense of the wiser attendees prevailed |
| 23:19.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just musing about an incompatibility between userland/*.so and kernel |
| 23:21.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm fully supporting merlin1991 with his take on kernel for CSSU shouldn't be another KP51 with bells and whistles nobody ever really tested if they play nice with N900, even if they're upstream. We've seen enough BS upsream, just look at lis302dl.ko vs lis3lv02.ko |
| 23:23.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | zeq: there's a reason maemo kernel is _not_ upstream kernel |
| 23:23.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and any patch being upstream doesn't guarantee it's all sugar and cake for our device |
| 23:25.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | so my take on CSSU kernel is like merlin1991's: port every CVE separately, after *proper* evaluation on the ML, review of at least 2 other experts about possible impact, and finally proper testing before deploying the patch with a new kernel |
| 23:25.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/of at/by at/ |
| 23:27.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | zeq: when estel dare to throw around numbers like "99.99% of users", I can do as well. Keep in mind you're potentially wrecking the devices of 50000 or 100000 users that don't show up here to utter their concerns |
| 23:28.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | and anybody now jumping up and questioning those numbers has to debate with me about his attitude what CSSU is meant to be |
| 23:29.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | aim is to move CSSU on every single N900 ever sold |
| 23:30.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | if we're not there yet, we can't use this as an excuse for anything, particularly not for sloppyness and careless messing with system, but rather we should ponder why we're not there yet |
| 23:32.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | zeq: think "risk management", think "IF we mess it up completely, can we deliver a proper recovery path, and can we do that fast and safely?" |
| 23:32.29 | zeq | I can't disagree with any of that |
| 23:32.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know |
| 23:33.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I definitely didn't mean you, merlin1991, pali or even fmg with my rant about the non-expert half opening their mouth way to wide when they better shut up and listen |
| 23:34.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | but according to estel you're all under my satanic influence |
| 23:34.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 23:34.38 | zeq | :) |
| 23:35.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I hope some guys have learnt now that my satanic influence is STRONG even when I'm just not around |
| 23:35.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | XD |
| 23:37.16 | zeq | incidently, is it known how many N900s there are out there? |
| 23:37.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | numbers differ, I seem to recall preworders been 250k |
| 23:38.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | or sales during first 3 months incl preorders? |
| 23:38.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno |
| 23:39.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe I'm totally wrong and my memory clouded |
| 23:39.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | guys like gan should know better |
| 23:39.43 | Raimu | I wish all this in-scene fighting shit would just recede. |
| 23:39.53 | Raimu | Seen it too often in different circles. |
| 23:40.05 | zeq | I'd better get to sleep now, on holiday you know! ;) |
| 23:40.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | Raimu: seems a normal thing in FOSS |
| 23:40.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-S |
| 23:40.15 | Raimu | Suppose. |
| 23:40.32 | Raimu | No problem with differing opinions, though. Just when it goes ballistic. |
| 23:40.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 23:41.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, all you can earn in FOSS is fame. Some need it more than others, some are ruthless in their means to achive that goal |
| 23:42.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | and some simply haven't groked the concept of meritocracy |
| 23:43.20 | Raimu | Bah, not what I'm talking about. |
| 23:43.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | meritocracy is a top-down concept, where gurus appoint others for peers |
| 23:43.34 | Raimu | Hmm, yes. |
| 23:43.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not the unwashed masses cheering up those with merit |
| 23:43.50 | Raimu | I mean some views are complementary rather than "naturally contradictory". |
| 23:44.58 | Raimu | Anyways. |
| 23:45.24 | Raimu | hugs everyone like a drunkard |
| 23:45.29 | Raimu | I guess that's what I mean. :P |
| 23:45.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 23:46.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | afk for a late beer |
| 23:46.04 | Raimu | One can swing ace concepts every which way, but they're still just that. |
| 23:46.19 | Raimu | already started with a quart of rum'n'ginger |
| 23:46.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | zeq: n8 pal |