| 00:22.29 | DocScrutinizer | what a strange spiit is that which makes people complain about Nokia not mainaining stock maemo anymore, then they start to think about pushing jet propulsion power into Diesel CSSU, and when you offer them a jet propulsion test range where they can actually make that bleeding edge "we gonna change the world" stuff happen, they complain again about "devels won't want to support all three" :-S |
| 00:24.50 | DocScrutinizer | while *sane* devels will want to make their stuff work with STOCK, incl messybox, and only ignorants will develop for messybox-power on thumb with jet propulsion ONLY, and then start whining about so few users are willing to test and use their acme app |
| 00:27.23 | DocScrutinizer | and honestly any app developed in a way it needs thumb because devel didn't care to make it compatible to ARM (a rather hard thing to accomplish, to make something not work on ARM but only on THUMB)... |
| 00:28.22 | DocScrutinizer | ...such an "app" probably won't pass the QA criteria for inclusion nto any official repo anyway |
| 00:30.07 | DocScrutinizer | not because of "dependency" to THUMB, but rather because this has to be the mess of the year to manage it to make build incompatible with ARM |
| 00:31.33 | DocScrutinizer | that's almost like maemo initscripts which ahve dependency to messybox as they rely on a bug in messybox and thus will fail with any proper shell |
| 00:57.19 | Estel_ | You fail to see the point, DocScrutinizer. you're talking about ideology... |
| 00:57.28 | Estel_ | And I'm talking about real life, when developer's time is precious |
| 00:58.08 | Estel_ | and making program, then managing 32643274 versions, due to some fools lacking busybox-power, other using CSSU-lite, other using cssu-extras, other using cssu-rewrites, other using anuy mix of those... |
| 00:58.10 | Estel_ | Is a real pita |
| 00:58.23 | DocScrutinizer | now it's evident YOU failed the point, when you think I'm talking about ideology |
| 00:58.24 | Estel_ | generally, it's hard enough to make people write programs for both Fremantle and Harmattan, for example |
| 00:58.42 | Estel_ | now, imagine convincing them to write app in 4 variants for fremantle... |
| 00:58.56 | Estel_ | cssu-lite, cssu-rewrite, cssu-whatever |
| 00:58.58 | Estel_ | + stock |
| 00:59.02 | Estel_ | I can imagine the enthusiasm |
| 00:59.04 | DocScrutinizer | only idiots need 4 variants |
| 00:59.07 | Estel_ | nope. |
| 00:59.14 | Estel_ | more advanced apps reqwuire some tools alkready |
| 00:59.17 | Estel_ | aslo called dependencies ;) |
| 00:59.24 | DocScrutinizer | experienced devels know to write one version for all |
| 00:59.27 | Estel_ | now, some of dependencies are only in cssu-rewrite |
| 00:59.33 | Estel_ | or in cssu-extras-propulsion-whatever |
| 00:59.41 | Estel_ | other tools, doing similar things, are in stock |
| 00:59.46 | DocScrutinizer | that's you huge epic misconception |
| 00:59.49 | Estel_ | now test Your app in all 4 enviromnents or any combination of those |
| 00:59.52 | Estel_ | and make them to work |
| 00:59.57 | Estel_ | NO sane dev will waste time for that |
| 01:00.13 | Estel_ | OK, but we're not making CSSU for ultra-high-powa-kickass experienced devels only |
| 01:00.21 | Estel_ | BTYW, I would say we have such devels, hm... maybe 4 of them? |
| 01:00.32 | DocScrutinizer | you're telling nonsense |
| 01:00.52 | Estel_ | and half of our experienced devels still wouldn't take a shit of writing for plentora of ideological variantys, from which only one or two are really usable |
| 01:01.13 | Estel_ | well, as I've said before - time will tell. If we won't hit problems, it's great, and You're right. |
| 01:01.23 | DocScrutinizer | and if pigs had wings |
| 01:01.49 | DocScrutinizer | ~wiki posix |
| 01:01.49 | Estel_ | OTOH, I expect slow but constant process of programs being compatible, or at least *tested* and *confirmed* to work properly: only on one, msot advanced "variant" |
| 01:02.05 | Estel_ | wlel, it's academic discussions, as long as we won't see results |
| 01:02.33 | Estel_ | bullshit, even simple things as busybox-power (which should be part of CSSU for ages) and busybox causes problems |
| 01:02.48 | Estel_ | BTW, only in one direction - stock busybox is not compatible, never heard of incompatibility problems with busybox power |
| 01:02.49 | DocScrutinizer | that's not academic, that's urinal talk |
| 01:02.59 | Estel_ | whatever, it's still thing of beliefs |
| 01:03.08 | Estel_ | You belief it will work and won't require devs to do additional work |
| 01:03.26 | Estel_ | I think that it *might* be PITA, and if so, everyone will stop wasting time to maintain compatibility. |
| 01:03.34 | Estel_ | Only time will tell, and it's of no use to argue about that |
| 01:03.45 | DocScrutinizer | who the fuck says messybox-powaa should be part of CSSU? Please give rationeale |
| 01:04.13 | Estel_ | 1. upstream, busybox fixes. 2. maemo busybox is crippled, full ash-compliant comes only with busybox-power |
| 01:04.19 | Estel_ | 3. go and read busybox-power thread |
| 01:04.27 | Estel_ | 4. it won't introdude *any* regressions |
| 01:04.40 | DocScrutinizer | I don't give a shit |
| 01:04.53 | Estel_ | by 2, I mean that m,any things that *should* work, as they're ashh compliant, *doesn't* work, without busybox-power |
| 01:05.11 | DocScrutinizer | prower unix tools even less will introduce any regression, as there's no regression against the real thing |
| 01:05.18 | Estel_ | well, maybe You don't, but if I hit problems writing such small and little thing as ereswap, then, I can imagine what is haunting "real" devs |
| 01:05.19 | DocScrutinizer | proper* |
| 01:05.38 | DocScrutinizer | no you definitely can'T |
| 01:05.52 | DocScrutinizer | you have no idea what's a real dev |
| 01:06.08 | Estel_ | whatever, as I've said it's useless discussion, as only time will tell which directions devs will take. |
| 01:06.43 | Estel_ | now, You're jsut trying to convince me that Your beliefs are more Yours than mine... If this sentence is understandable for other language's folks too ;) |
| 01:06.46 | DocScrutinizer | no, even that isn't exact, as it depends on who's defining what's a "dev" |
| 01:07.11 | Estel_ | honestly? I think Fabric of Reality (tm) doesn't care about Your or mine definition of dev |
| 01:07.40 | Estel_ | we just agree to disagree here, and future will tell who was right (or won't, if we hit thermonuclear war tommorow) |
| 01:07.59 | Estel_ | no need to call anyone names, talk about urinal or fekal talks, etc. Agreed? |
| 01:08.32 | DocScrutinizer | no, we don't need thermonuclear war, we will never agree on who was right, as you will never accept that our definition of develper differs |
| 01:09.44 | ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, Estel_ : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrAeUf7v49g |
| 01:09.59 | ShadowJK | (HD available) |
| 01:11.06 | DocScrutinizer | I'm willing to agree lately we got more and more noobs who take pride in calling themselves developers and actually think messybox-powa is the cutest thing since sliced bread, completely missing the point and concept of original messybox which been "you can do everything you ever need, with just those 14 commands. You just have to *know* your shit with unix shell" |
| 01:14.13 | DocScrutinizer | and including a longls binary to CSSU, to allow noobs develop shellscripts despite not ever having heard of parameter -l in ls command... Hope you get the metaphor. It's the way that made windows bloated, clumsy, unmaintainable and a general PITA |
| 01:16.30 | DocScrutinizer | 57 noobs and fools developing and proliferating 296 tools for exactly the same task, and each single one of those 296 is shite and has other idiosyncrasies and flaws, just because nobody had a *concept* |
| 01:16.37 | DocScrutinizer | that'S windows |
| 01:16.55 | DocScrutinizer | you can'T do that on embedded though, not even with winP7 |
| 01:19.29 | DocScrutinizer | there's stuff not available for stock kernel (e.g. netfilters, certain devices, and filesystems for rootfs [other fs can modprobe their fs!]) - we got powerkernel for those who want to develop apps for that |
| 01:19.40 | DocScrutinizer | ONE powerkernel |
| 01:20.04 | DocScrutinizer | for stuff in system, there's (and w |
| 01:20.14 | DocScrutinizer | always been) libraries etc |
| 01:22.06 | DocScrutinizer | your acme scriptie app depends on busybox-power? BULLSHIT! it maybe depends on a certain commandline tool, like find - so what? make a dependency for it so it installs the command pkg findutils. NOBODY thinks this needs to get included to CSSU |
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| 09:32.33 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer, ping |
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| 10:59.06 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, I respect Your knowledge in various parts of things related to Maemo and linux as a whole - without any irony - but, honestly, discussing with You is like talking with christian's zealot about corectness of bible. |
| 11:01.23 | Estel_ | if You don't agree to disagree, that's ok - no problem for me, honestly, and, btw I agee, that we disagree about who developer is. for me it's not *necessary* complete purist, who sacrifice own time time to be "compatible" with some base ideology. Of course, I hate bloat too, but, as it seems, for someone being fully ash compliant is "bloat and powaaah", for others, just normal working environment. |
| 11:01.37 | Estel_ | it's fine. Opinions and beliefs vary. |
| 11:02.21 | Estel_ | I don't necessary feel "urge" ;) to enforce my POV on You, so chillout. |
| 11:26.20 | DocScrutinizer | prepares a special version of qbasic "that should go into CSSU" to finally allow "devels" to use their favourite language |
| 11:27.29 | DocScrutinizer | obviously this will have impact on compatibility to stock maemo systems, but so what? Times aren't standing still |
| 11:27.57 | DocScrutinizer | ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ if that's been needed |
| 11:35.20 | Estel_ | bad aimed irony, as busybox power doesn't impact on compatibility with stock Maemo. |
| 11:35.38 | Estel_ | anyway, I see that You still can't give up on this discussion ;) |
| 11:36.35 | Estel_ | won't interrupt Your evangelic mission, so take Your time, but for now, it's kinda EOT for me. No offense, or hostility. |
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| 11:51.02 | DocScrutinizer | look, Estel_ - we're not talking about devels' playground for CSSU. It's a community driven effort to give continued uninterrupted service and usability to a lot of mere users who don't give a shit about new developments or even about FOSS at all. |
| 11:51.44 | DocScrutinizer | and all those users paid a friggin lot for their devices incl OS |
| 12:02.07 | DocScrutinizer | CSSU is _not_ meant to redefine anything of what those users decided and paid for |
| 12:04.00 | DocScrutinizer | so WTF is the rationale to demand for messybox-powa becoming a part of CSSU, while it - obvious for absolutely everybody - can ship as a normal app package via extras? |
| 12:17.08 | DocScrutinizer | you're aware you are asking to include a relatively large additional blob of binary (i.e. busybox-power) into *rootfs*, thus reducing free storage space there for absolutely no user relevant ticket to fix by this action? |
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| 15:54.46 | Estel_ | Ok, this point is reasonable |
| 15:54.57 | Estel_ | but, AIUI, cssu-extras is good place for it? |
| 15:55.11 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, ^^^ |
| 15:55.32 | Estel_ | and what about, lets say, camera-ui that is already part of CSSU. should it shift to cssu-extras? |
| 15:55.38 | Estel_ | following whole logic, it seems it should |
| 15:56.19 | Estel_ | do you think it wouldn't create a little distraction in user's word, to got downgraded into stock camera-ui again, without ijnstalling cssu-extras? i'm not arguing, that it may not be good thing to do, i'm jsut wondering about practical consequences |
| 15:57.24 | Estel_ | +, upstream patches from busybox-power (patches != enchancements) should be ported into CSSU independently of busybox-power extra features, or not? Fololowing current CSSu logic, it should be split into two |
| 15:57.53 | Estel_ | and what about all those fuss re portrait mode. It seems it's place is CSSU-extras |
| 15:58.07 | Estel_ | modest in CSSU rewrites? or what? |
| 15:58.23 | Estel_ | all after all, what remains for cssu-barebone? (aka main) |
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| 19:26.04 | Pali | freemangordon, merlin1991: did somebody tested my HAM patches? |
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| 20:23.40 | freemangordon | Pali, where are those? |
| 20:23.54 | freemangordon | and why .debs are not in -devel repo :P |
| 20:24.37 | Pali | https://gitorious.org/~pali/community-ssu/pali-hildon-application-manager |
| 20:25.14 | Pali | merlin wrote that he will try it with next update |
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| 20:47.41 | tadzik | hello |
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| 20:50.43 | tadzik | I seem to have screwed up my CSSU a bit. I did install it, according to the wiki there's no way to remove it, but after removing some installed packages 'CSSU Features Configuration' says that I have no CSSU installed |
| 20:51.15 | tadzik | is there any way to force reinstall everything CSSU-related, or I should just reinstall maemo and copy my personal stuff from a backup? |
| 20:54.01 | Estel_ | if You're not experience,d the latter sounds like good idea |
| 20:54.06 | Estel_ | tadzik ^^^ |
| 20:54.32 | Estel_ | but, You could probably just install again what You've uninstalled by mistake |
| 20:54.56 | Estel_ | FME it should work OK after that, if You know what exactly got screwed |
| 20:57.50 | tadzik | Estel_: I removed some qtm-packages, and something along about-cssu-blablabla |
| 20:58.14 | tadzik | I don't mind a little excitement, and I know my way around at least in a "normal" debian :) |
| 20:58.19 | Estel_ | so reinstall some qtm packages, and something along about-cssu-blablabla |
| 20:58.19 | Estel_ | ;) |
| 20:58.22 | tadzik | hehe |
| 20:58.37 | Estel_ | excitement is good, as long as you have backupmenu installed |
| 20:58.42 | Estel_ | and proper rootfs+optfs backup |
| 20:58.43 | tadzik | thing is, I did a backup before that, not the bootmenu stuff, but this maemo backup thing |
| 20:58.52 | tadzik | and it was supposed to backup application list too |
| 20:59.12 | Estel_ | Honestly never used it, if You try backupmenu once, you would never go back to maemo backup stuff |
| 20:59.17 | tadzik | and it did, it mangled stuff a bit, but that doesn't seem to have helped much |
| 20:59.33 | tadzik | well, the backup from backupmenu is probably the pre-cssu one |
| 20:59.40 | Estel_ | I wouldnt rely bundled-in backup stuff to backup anything above contacts and, maybe, sms'es |
| 21:00.00 | Estel_ | backupmenu backups and restore Your rootfs form nand and optfs *exactly* like it wa sin moment of doing backup |
| 21:00.03 | tadzik | which is not too bad I guess, if I can easily backup my /home and then bring it back |
| 21:00.09 | tadzik | right |
| 21:00.28 | Estel_ | generally, experienced people are Ok to restore rootfs or optfs only |
| 21:00.47 | Estel_ | if Yuo knwo how to handle de-sync between rootfs and optfs (i.e. things one expect to exist but lacking in another) |
| 21:01.05 | tadzik | now that I listen to you I don't think I can handle it :) |
| 21:01.31 | tadzik | so I guess the easiest way to go is: 1) restore backup from backupmenu 2) install cssu again 3) bring back my apps |
| 21:01.33 | Estel_ | ;) if you don't have anything important |
| 21:01.39 | tadzik | well, I do |
| 21:01.44 | tadzik | but it's all in /home I guess |
| 21:01.49 | Estel_ | ...outside maemo's backup from backup program |
| 21:02.06 | Estel_ | the most bulletproof apporoach would be to flash FIASCO |
| 21:02.17 | Estel_ | as backupmenu is backuping /home/ alongside optfs |
| 21:02.24 | Estel_ | which is, probably, only one drawback of this program |
| 21:02.54 | Estel_ | I've suggested to split it to 2 optional backups, as, for example, I've preenv games in /home/games and backuping them alongside optfs, made bgackup # Gb in size |
| 21:03.00 | Estel_ | s/#/3/ |
| 21:03.02 | tadzik | okay, let's get this straight. I want to reinstall the whole system, but somehow keep my smses, contacts, calendar, wolfenstein saves and so on |
| 21:03.26 | Estel_ | I don't know about wolfenstein save,s but rest should be in your backup from osso-backup |
| 21:03.44 | Estel_ | so, screw backupmenu backup this time, backup Your game's saves manually... |
| 21:03.48 | Estel_ | then reflash FIASCO |
| 21:03.53 | Estel_ | install CSSU |
| 21:03.56 | Estel_ | restore backup |
| 21:04.01 | Estel_ | and prepare proper backup with backupmenu |
| 21:04.09 | Estel_ | now, you're free to mess with whatever You want :p |
| 21:04.10 | tadzik | before I google FIASCO, I think I could just backup whole /home/user |
| 21:04.33 | Estel_ | don't google fiasco, just check article in maemo.org's Wiki "Updating the firmware" |
| 21:04.35 | tadzik | does that sound sane? tar.gz it and then unpack it again after restoring backup and reinstalling CSSU |
| 21:04.36 | Estel_ | I know, tricky name |
| 21:05.04 | Estel_ | You could, although, in home user, there are also hidden files like ".configsomething", and I'm not sure if You need it |
| 21:05.15 | tadzik | yeah, I'm aware of them |
| 21:05.21 | tadzik | ok, backupmenu goes first |
| 21:05.21 | Estel_ | so why not |
| 21:05.58 | tadzik | and while I'm going full crazy, how stable is cssu-testing? :) |
| 21:06.57 | Estel_ | very stable. |
| 21:07.16 | Estel_ | Only once in history there was a small mistake-update that amde people's device unbootable, but now, we have cssu-devel too |
| 21:07.55 | tadzik | oh, I didn't know about that one |
| 21:08.44 | Estel_ | Unles you perfectly know what You're doing, stick to cssu-testing and You'll be OK |
| 21:08.57 | tadzik | oh crap, seems that bootmenu's broken |
| 21:09.00 | Estel_ | BTw, welcome in our little Community :) |
| 21:09.05 | tadzik | hey, thanks :) |
| 21:09.05 | Estel_ | how come? |
| 21:09.31 | tadzik | no eye deer. "Error with: cp /usr/bin/evkey bla bla bla", No Such File Or Directory, Press Any Key To Continue |
| 21:09.35 | tadzik | and it hangs |
| 21:09.40 | tadzik | even the led hanged |
| 21:10.25 | Estel_ | ops |
| 21:10.28 | Estel_ | I know wtf |
| 21:10.33 | Estel_ | I hoped they fixed it already |
| 21:10.42 | Estel_ | if You can boot to device, just do |
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| 21:10.45 | Estel_ | as root |
| 21:10.53 | tadzik | hold on, I removed the battery and now rebooting |
| 21:10.57 | Estel_ | wont help |
| 21:11.10 | tadzik | I hope it will, otherwise I have a bricked phone |
| 21:11.23 | Estel_ | Youre sure that it is "Error with: cp /usr/bin/evkey", and not /usr/sbin/evkey? |
| 21:11.30 | tadzik | could've been sbin |
| 21:11.36 | Estel_ | why broken? |
| 21:11.46 | Estel_ | can't boot normally to Maemo again? |
| 21:11.49 | tadzik | well, if you say "reboot wont help"... ;) |
| 21:11.53 | tadzik | Maemo has just booted |
| 21:11.55 | Estel_ | reboot won't help bootmenu |
| 21:11.59 | tadzik | I see |
| 21:12.00 | Estel_ | ok |
| 21:12.06 | Estel_ | now go back to device turned off |
| 21:12.10 | Estel_ | and re-check error message :p |
| 21:12.14 | Estel_ | as it's important to fix |
| 21:12.20 | tadzik | oh wtf |
| 21:12.24 | Estel_ | if it's /usr/sbin/evkey |
| 21:12.29 | Estel_ | You need to, from Maemo, as root: |
| 21:12.45 | Estel_ | cp /usr/bin/evkey /usr/sbin/evkey |
| 21:12.51 | Estel_ | otherwise, just turn it upside down |
| 21:13.09 | tadzik | hold on, something sensemaking seems to happen |
| 21:13.14 | Estel_ | You can also ln -s it |
| 21:13.20 | tadzik | maemo now wants to update stuff, and qtm-blabla is on the list |
| 21:13.32 | Estel_ | hm.... |
| 21:13.33 | tadzik | I'll see what happens |
| 21:13.44 | Estel_ | sure thing |
| 21:14.14 | tadzik | I don't expect success, as I tried installing CSSU-Testing once CSSU-Stable didn't want to reinstall |
| 21:14.21 | tadzik | so thing might've gone crazy |
| 21:14.47 | Estel_ | updating from cssu-stable to testing is ok |
| 21:14.49 | Estel_ | won't work other way |
| 21:15.17 | tadzik | understandable |
| 21:15.37 | tadzik | I know what you mean, I tried downgrading debian testing to debian stable once |
| 21:15.43 | Estel_ | ;) |
| 21:15.45 | tadzik | was an...interesting experience, to say it gently |
| 21:22.33 | tadzik | okay, that didn't fix anything. Back to bootmenu |
| 21:23.30 | tadzik | it's the sbin one that's missing |
| 21:26.22 | tadzik | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.39 | tadzik | Estel_: if I create a new backup using bootmenu, the old one will go away? |
| 21:26.53 | Estel_ | no, it's saved with data appended to it |
| 21:26.59 | tadzik | as in, There Can Be Only One? |
| 21:27.02 | Estel_ | s/data/date/ |
| 21:27.07 | Estel_ | + time |
| 21:27.27 | Estel_ | you just need to keep and eye on it, or you can lose orientation which backup is which easily |
| 21:27.36 | tadzik | I'll backup /home/user first, Justin Case |
| 21:39.10 | tadzik | Estel_: hmm. Does restoring rootfs and opts touch /home/user at all? |
| 21:41.16 | Estel_ | yea |
| 21:41.27 | Estel_ | as I've said, backupmenu optf contain /home/user too |
| 21:41.33 | Estel_ | for reasons unknown, honestly |
| 21:41.44 | Estel_ | it doesn't touch MyDocs only |
| 21:41.54 | tadzik | oh, ok |
| 21:42.13 | tadzik | I'm now creating a new backup in bootmenu, in case that in an hour I'd be even in worse situation that I'm in now :) |
| 21:44.04 | *** join/#maemo-ssu NIN101 (~NIN@p5DD28983.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 22:06.32 | *** join/#maemo-ssu trbs (~trbs@2001:470:d2ad:1:4a5b:39ff:fe7d:1623) |
| 22:41.08 | tadzik | Estel_: seems that everything works, with cssu-testing onboard :) |
| 22:41.19 | tadzik | thank you very much for your help |
| 22:41.19 | Estel_ | nice to hear :) |
| 22:41.25 | Estel_ | no problem, yw. |
| 22:41.48 | Estel_ | don't forget to prepare full rtootfs and optfs backup |
| 22:41.55 | Estel_ | so you can always go back to current situation |
| 22:42.32 | tadzik | right |
| 22:43.02 | tadzik | oh, and it actually did preserve my dotfiles, those in /home/user but not in MyDocs |
| 22:48.06 | *** join/#maemo-ssu FireFly (~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly) |
| 22:48.33 | *** join/#maemo-ssu rzs19 (~richi@ip-176-198-105-189.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 22:49.16 | rzs19 | hello, i have upgraded to the latest stable version of maemo cssu and now i get a segmentation fault, when i try to start camera-ui. |
| 22:49.17 | tadzik | hmm |
| 23:04.10 | *** join/#maemo-ssu rzs19 (~richi@ip-176-198-105-189.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 23:05.07 | rzs19 | okay, i got it, fcam driverswas the problem, i removed itand now everything is fine :) |
| 23:06.50 | rzs19 | creating groups i nthe contact app would be nice. |
| 23:22.29 | rzs19 | is there a way to disable all the 3dstuff? |
| 23:59.02 | *** join/#maemo-ssu int_ua (~int_ua@ip-602f.proline.net.ua) |