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| 08:59.23 | ivgalvez | I don't really like the idea of a different repo (fork) |
| 09:00.05 | ivgalvez | unless you consider that as CSSU-Devel |
| 09:01.31 | freemangordon | ivgalvez, that is not a real fork. And lets see how it will develop, after all I may be wrong and thumb is not stable |
| 09:02.28 | ivgalvez | we are happy ginea pigeons |
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| 09:13.17 | freemangordon | :D |
| 09:13.33 | merlin1991 | freemangordon: did you post on tmo already? |
| 09:14.30 | freemangordon | nope |
| 09:14.39 | freemangordon | I am not ready with all the packages |
| 09:14.49 | merlin1991 | and the mp ;) |
| 09:15.01 | freemangordon | yep |
| 09:15.07 | merlin1991 | btw did you add the thumb errater depends to all packages? |
| 09:16.15 | freemangordon | no, I will do it mp- package |
| 09:16.27 | freemangordon | *in mp- |
| 09:16.36 | merlin1991 | technically it shoud be on each thumb package |
| 09:17.02 | freemangordon | hmm, correct, but I still don't have such kernel |
| 09:17.03 | merlin1991 | because the way it is currently apt would only remove the mp in case you install an invalid kernel package |
| 09:17.32 | freemangordon | once I have it, i will add the dependency |
| 09:17.36 | merlin1991 | k |
| 09:18.00 | merlin1991 | just came around to announce our meeting on the mailinglist |
| 09:18.05 | merlin1991 | I totally forgot about that :D |
| 09:20.42 | freemangordon | :D |
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| 09:29.33 | ivgalvez | I understan that the kernel in thumb repository will be the same than KP |
| 09:29.43 | freemangordon | yep |
| 09:29.45 | merlin1991 | yes |
| 09:29.56 | ivgalvez | wouldn't it be better to first include errata in KP at devel? |
| 09:30.09 | ivgalvez | so there is no need to have yet another kernel |
| 09:30.09 | freemangordon | why is that? |
| 09:30.19 | merlin1991 | the problem is that the repo has to work even if the user disabled -devel |
| 09:30.27 | ivgalvez | yep |
| 09:30.37 | ivgalvez | you're right |
| 09:31.05 | *** join/#maemo-ssu Jaffa (~andrew@badger.bleb.org) |
| 09:31.06 | freemangordon | that first, and as we need community kernel soon or later, that will be a good start |
| 09:31.13 | Jaffa | Morning all |
| 09:31.25 | merlin1991 | morning jaffa :D |
| 09:31.29 | freemangordon | morning |
| 09:31.30 | ivgalvez | morning |
| 09:32.10 | ivgalvez | freemangordon: then the kernel in thumb repo will substitute Nokia's kernel? |
| 09:33.12 | ivgalvez | I understood that the idea was to keep KP with extra features (including errata) and provide a substitute for Nokia's kernel only ith bugfixes (including errata) |
| 09:33.28 | freemangordon | no |
| 09:33.39 | freemangordon | why should we maintain 2 kernels |
| 09:33.58 | freemangordon | what is better to have both KP and omap? |
| 09:34.02 | ivgalvez | it's ok for me not to maintain two kernels, it's been years since last time I used Nokia's |
| 09:34.03 | freemangordon | *why |
| 09:34.31 | ivgalvez | just asking |
| 09:35.04 | merlin1991 | ivgalvez: we might introduce a kernel in the future that is only omap1 + fixes, but atm we have no kernel at all in cssu, and for -thumb we'll rely on KP |
| 09:36.32 | ivgalvez | my prediction is that most of TMO users will switch to -thumb very soon |
| 09:37.06 | merlin1991 | we'll see |
| 09:37.08 | freemangordon | hmm, lets see |
| 09:37.10 | freemangordon | :D |
| 09:37.26 | merlin1991 | there are plenty stable users on tmo aswell |
| 09:37.33 | ivgalvez | yes for Stable |
| 09:37.40 | ivgalvez | but no one will use Testing |
| 09:37.40 | merlin1991 | and I don't hink they'll jump to thumb that easily |
| 09:37.57 | merlin1991 | well essentially everybody will still use Testing :D |
| 09:38.13 | merlin1991 | only that a few pakages are thumb aswell |
| 09:38.41 | ivgalvez | yes, at some point, all the thmb stuff (if proved to work) should then be moved to Testing, maybe with the omap1+bugfixes kernel |
| 09:39.07 | merlin1991 | nah |
| 09:39.12 | freemangordon | if it turns out that most of the people use thumb and it is stable, then why not, we only need merlin1991 and DocScrutinizer to re-consider their position :P |
| 09:39.32 | freemangordon | but not with omap1 kernel |
| 09:39.45 | merlin1991 | there is a reason why I am against moving thumb support into the current cssu repo |
| 09:39.47 | freemangordon | there is noone to maintain it AFAIK |
| 09:39.55 | Raimu | Remember to provide a multiboot enabled kernel too |
| 09:40.08 | freemangordon | merlin1991, yes, we discussed that |
| 09:40.11 | Raimu | If that is a possibility. |
| 09:40.46 | freemangordon | adn why you need MB when we have (almost) upstream u-boot? |
| 09:40.56 | ivgalvez | maintenance is very relative, consider that what is maintained now could be unmaintained in just a matter of days if it's developer moves or whatever |
| 09:41.56 | ivgalvez | about uboot, there should be a proper path for Nitdroid users to move from their existing multiboot configuration |
| 09:41.57 | freemangordon | ivgalvez, I am not against omap1 clone in CSSU, just don't know who will maintain it. Not me for sure and I never heard Pali to want to do it |
| 09:42.01 | merlin1991 | freemangordon: I think nitroid still relies on multiboot |
| 09:42.14 | Raimu | freemangordon: Um, dunno. To be honest I installed MB way back when and haven't gone around to switching since I also installed NITdroid. |
| 09:42.25 | freemangordon | nah, Pali said it has Nitdroid booting through u-boot |
| 09:42.51 | ivgalvez | yes, but before forcing uboot, there shoud be a thread on TMO to encourage people to migrate |
| 09:42.58 | ivgalvez | and a proper how to |
| 09:43.02 | freemangordon | and migration path for current MB user is something Pali (being u-boot maintainer) should consider |
| 09:43.15 | ivgalvez | Pali ping |
| 09:43.56 | Raimu | I would migrate right away, I guess, if it was something that came with instructions and wasn't terribly likely to mess me up many times. |
| 09:44.16 | ivgalvez | Raimu: Me too |
| 09:44.35 | ivgalvez | but there is a ton of Nitdroid users |
| 09:44.44 | ivgalvez | that will be painfull |
| 09:48.27 | Raimu | is off to read up the latest on uboot |
| 09:52.47 | Jaffa | ivgalvez: There are *thousands* of N900 users who don't read TMO, actively use their device and even actively download stuff from Extras (hence the reason why CSSU Stable should be advertised on banners across maemo.org) |
| 09:53.58 | ivgalvez | Jaffa: even though there will be people that won't notice |
| 09:55.02 | ivgalvez | A possible solution would be to promote a package up to Extras to install CSSU, something like a "Maemo 5 Community Upgrade" package that install the repo and CSSU Stable |
| 09:55.29 | Jaffa | ivgalvez: "won't notice"? |
| 09:56.04 | ivgalvez | those who don't enter on TMO but install stuff from Extras |
| 09:56.45 | Jaffa | ivgalvez: Agreed. But not sure what that's got to do with maintainership of apps or changing to thumb |
| 10:03.57 | ivgalvez | Jaffa: I changed subject :D |
| 10:04.04 | ivgalvez | regarding the banner |
| 10:04.13 | ivgalvez | and the promotion of CSSU |
| 10:08.57 | Jaffa | ivgalvez: Ah :) |
| 10:11.53 | Pali | ivgalvez, pong |
| 10:13.42 | ivgalvez | Pali: ping |
| 10:14.19 | ivgalvez | We were talking about including errata in KP and Community Kernel |
| 10:15.05 | ivgalvez | if a -thumb repo is enabled including KP + errata, that would require to install another kernel besides KP |
| 10:15.46 | ivgalvez | would you then stop maintaing KP in repos as it's now a pain in the ass each time you want to promote it? |
| 10:16.36 | ivgalvez | The other question is about uboot and Nitdroid |
| 10:17.08 | ivgalvez | moving to uboot for KP + errata would require existing Nitdroid users to migrate from multiboot to uboot |
| 10:17.21 | ivgalvez | that won't be easy |
| 10:30.29 | Pali | ivgalvez, migrating nitdroid users from multiboot to u-boot will require reinstall nitdroid I think |
| 10:30.47 | Pali | but on nitdroid is working vakkov |
| 10:31.12 | Pali | and he will prepair nitdroid image with u-boot bootmenu entry for easy install |
| 10:31.45 | Pali | you can comtact him at #nitdroid |
| 10:32.31 | Pali | about kernel (power|community|...), if it will be in extra repo I can maintain it with needed thumb2 patch |
| 10:33.18 | Pali | I belive that OBS will be working and allow us to create repository like: "Maemo5 repo with thumb binaries" |
| 10:56.41 | amiconn | Is nitdroid actually usable for anything else than just testing? |
| 10:58.09 | ivgalvez | amiconn: It's nice for gaming |
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| 11:33.35 | *** join/#maemo-ssu DocScrutinizer (~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 11:50.31 | DocScrutinizer | shipping a CSSU-introducer pkg to extras is a dead symple thing to do, no? |
| 11:51.11 | merlin1991 | kinda |
| 11:51.24 | DocScrutinizer | clone one of the megaton of website-bookmark-pkgs, let URL point to http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 11:51.25 | merlin1991 | it's dead simple to have it blow in your face though |
| 11:52.01 | DocScrutinizer | merlin1991: nah! |
| 11:52.11 | DocScrutinizer | not my approach |
| 11:52.25 | merlin1991 | which would be what? |
| 11:52.30 | merlin1991 | places a bookmark on the desktop? |
| 11:52.30 | DocScrutinizer | clone one of the megaton of website-bookmark-pkgs, let URL point to http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 11:52.34 | DocScrutinizer | yes |
| 11:55.12 | DocScrutinizer | I bet X-Fade would allow us to skip quarantine even ;-D |
| 11:56.49 | DocScrutinizer | even better: directly open the website http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU during install, via postinstall script |
| 11:57.24 | merlin1991 | dbus-send ftw |
| 11:57.38 | DocScrutinizer | that's _all_ it does, besides failing (throw error so it doesn't count as installed) |
| 11:58.12 | merlin1991 | hm doesn't an error in postinst make the pkg be partly installed? |
| 11:58.26 | DocScrutinizer | don't think so |
| 11:58.58 | DocScrutinizer | what's a partially installed pkg by apt's view? |
| 11:59.04 | merlin1991 | nfc |
| 11:59.10 | DocScrutinizer | it's either installed or not installed? |
| 11:59.16 | merlin1991 | whenever I have such fail I immediately go fixing :D |
| 11:59.42 | DocScrutinizer | sure, as usually the 'install' actually changed things |
| 11:59.46 | DocScrutinizer | ours won't |
| 12:00.19 | merlin1991 | I can look into it what dpkg / apt / ham thinks of a package that fails during one of the install scripts |
| 12:00.24 | DocScrutinizer | it *only* invokes microb with http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU |
| 12:00.37 | DocScrutinizer | fine :-D |
| 12:02.03 | DocScrutinizer | well, we actually should create a landing page for this introducer, like http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU__from-extras |
| 12:02.23 | DocScrutinizer | then just forward to http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, of we don't need special announcements |
| 12:02.24 | merlin1991 | yea |
| 12:03.35 | DocScrutinizer | like "you'll be forwarded to CSSU wiki in 10s. PLEASE DON'T FORGET TO CLOSE HAM!" |
| 12:03.53 | merlin1991 | that isn't even necessary afaik |
| 12:04.00 | DocScrutinizer | prolly not |
| 12:04.16 | DocScrutinizer | just gices us a hook where to place such stuff IF we need |
| 12:04.31 | DocScrutinizer | gives* DAMN |
| 12:04.37 | merlin1991 | I'd place a big fat: DON'T FORGET TO *NOT* USE FAPMAN :D |
| 12:04.39 | DocScrutinizer | time for 12648430 ☕ |
| 12:04.59 | DocScrutinizer | :-D |
| 12:06.05 | DocScrutinizer | ok, I got a third device now, I can test all sorts of shite, like clicking install while HAM open |
| 12:07.14 | DocScrutinizer | I also finally permanently blacklisted cdc_ether so flashing shouldn't be the PITA it used to be |
| 12:07.31 | merlin1991 | which dist do yo uuse? |
| 12:07.36 | DocScrutinizer | (you noticed I updated wiki for that?) |
| 12:07.37 | merlin1991 | on kubuntu I never had such problems |
| 12:07.56 | DocScrutinizer | suse |
| 12:08.42 | DocScrutinizer | buntkuh *cough* |
| 12:09.20 | merlin1991 | well I need .deb based for scratchbox |
| 12:09.28 | merlin1991 | and recent drivers thanks to my hw |
| 12:09.36 | merlin1991 | thus buntkuh :/ |
| 12:09.50 | DocScrutinizer | I once tried to help a friend with his buntkuh system. Drove me mad to browse thru 47 configuration apps to find out where he could manage his locale |
| 12:10.00 | merlin1991 | :D |
| 12:10.15 | merlin1991 | actually that stuff is easy now |
| 12:10.22 | merlin1991 | kde has a central conf app |
| 12:10.35 | DocScrutinizer | suse always had |
| 12:10.54 | merlin1991 | though that isn't exactly a pro suse argument ,) |
| 12:11.11 | DocScrutinizer | and always had way better localization, and better audio support |
| 12:11.21 | merlin1991 | "we did it better in the past" --> whatabout now? :D |
| 12:11.29 | DocScrutinizer | after all suse inc. contributed to ALSA a lot |
| 12:11.37 | merlin1991 | but yea audio support in buntkuh is gay |
| 12:11.49 | merlin1991 | untill you apt-get remove --purge pluseaudio |
| 12:11.54 | merlin1991 | and suddenly it's all fine :D |
| 12:12.32 | merlin1991 | though I need a lil of .asoundrc hackery in order to get flash sound into my usb headset |
| 12:14.02 | DocScrutinizer | who's going to build the acme cssu-introducer pkg? |
| 12:14.31 | merlin1991 | I suppose the autobuilder? :D |
| 12:14.37 | DocScrutinizer | I probably could tweak starhash-enabler, but I haven't touched stuff since 2 yeras |
| 12:17.27 | merlin1991 | I do debian packages while sleeping now |
| 12:17.37 | merlin1991 | have tweaked far too many packaging scripts for my liking :D |
| 12:17.52 | DocScrutinizer | btw I haven't found your invitation mail for monday's CSSU-extras discussion, on community ML |
| 12:17.58 | DocScrutinizer | or devel-ML |
| 12:18.01 | merlin1991 | it's on devel-ml |
| 12:18.08 | DocScrutinizer | hmm |
| 12:18.10 | merlin1991 | http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2012-May/028894.html |
| 12:18.23 | merlin1991 | kinda forgot about it and sent it out today |
| 12:18.34 | DocScrutinizer | aaah |
| 12:18.44 | DocScrutinizer | that'S why I didn't find it yesterday |
| 12:23.01 | merlin1991 | btw I'm offline from within an hour till sat evening |
| 12:46.07 | DocScrutinizer | YAY |
| 12:46.25 | DocScrutinizer | any particular rason? ;-) |
| 12:46.31 | DocScrutinizer | reason even |
| 12:47.32 | *** mode/#maemo-ssu [+o DocScrutinizer] by ChanServ |
| 12:48.21 | merlin1991 | off for fun in the countryside :D |
| 12:49.29 | *** topic/#maemo-ssu by DocScrutinizer -> Maemo Community Seamless Software Update "CSSU" channel, http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU | Known bugs: http://j.mp/communityssu-bugs | Channel logs: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/ | Sources: http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/ | Latest version (testing): 21.2011.38-1Tmaemo3.1; (stable): 21.2011.38-1Smaemo3 | next meeting: 14.05 18:00UTC topic: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae |
| 12:49.38 | DocScrutinizer | thought as much :-S |
| 12:50.29 | *** topic/#maemo-ssu by DocScrutinizer -> Maemo Community Seamless Software Update "CSSU" channel, http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU | Known bugs: http://j.mp/communityssu-bugs | Channel logs: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/ | Sources: http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/ | Latest version (testing): 21.2011.38-1Tmaemo3.1; (stable): 21.2011.38-1Smaemo3 | meeting: 14.05 18:00UTC http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developer |
| 12:50.35 | DocScrutinizer | damn |
| 12:51.40 | merlin1991 | max topic lenght exceeded? :D |
| 12:51.48 | DocScrutinizer | nof |
| 12:51.50 | DocScrutinizer | dod |
| 12:51.53 | DocScrutinizer | damn |
| 12:51.57 | DocScrutinizer | nod |
| 12:52.26 | *** topic/#maemo-ssu by DocScrutinizer -> Maemo Community Seamless Software Update "CSSU" channel, http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU | Known bugs: http://j.mp/communityssu-bugs | Channel logs: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/ | Sources: http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/ | Latest version (testing): 21.2011.38-1Tmaemo3.1; (stable): 21.2011.38-1Smaemo3 | next meeting: 14.05 18:00UTC |
| 12:52.31 | DocScrutinizer | meh! |
| 12:52.34 | *** mode/#maemo-ssu [-o DocScrutinizer] by ChanServ |
| 12:52.47 | merlin1991 | hm I always deop myself |
| 12:52.59 | merlin1991 | not via chanserv, no idea how todo it via chanserv :D |
| 12:53.09 | DocScrutinizer | WTF we need "known bugs:" in topic? |
| 12:53.10 | merlin1991 | and don't thell me to msg help to the bot ;) |
| 12:53.25 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: it's been there ever since we got our bugtracker entry |
| 12:53.37 | DocScrutinizer | /msg chanserv deop #channel |
| 12:53.37 | merlin1991 | it's the direct link to all open tickets against cssu |
| 12:53.47 | DocScrutinizer | and |
| 12:53.51 | DocScrutinizer | /msg chanserv op #channel |
| 12:54.34 | DocScrutinizer | honestly such stuff should go to IRC landing page |
| 12:54.53 | DocScrutinizer | which, in this case would be http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU so far |
| 12:56.08 | DocScrutinizer | I'd suggest to change http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU to http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU__IRC, and have Known bugs: http://j.mp/communityssu-bugs Sources: http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/ and http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU there |
| 12:57.39 | DocScrutinizer | best practice to have a dedicated IRC webpage to colect stuff like channel policies etc there, all the stuff that's simply too long for topic |
| 12:58.47 | DocScrutinizer | merlin1991: ooh, and enjoy your countryside trip. Hope you'll not get killed by hail and tornado |
| 13:01.23 | DocScrutinizer | moans about IT not really smart yet today. Where's the context menu cmdline on merlin1991's context menu, where you'd enter "find weather" to initiate a traceroute, ip-locator query, and a unwetterzentrale.de lookup |
| 13:02.31 | DocScrutinizer | type "find bithday" to get a spider crawl the internet to find any indication of merlin1991's birthday/age |
| 13:03.23 | DocScrutinizer | of course also indirect references |
| 13:03.40 | DocScrutinizer | so the spider has to have some intelligence obviously |
| 13:06.32 | DocScrutinizer | merlin1991: (op, deop) I got two irc client user defined commands for that, called /opm and /dopm |
| 13:06.47 | DocScrutinizer | works also geat like /opm merlin1991 |
| 13:06.50 | *** mode/#maemo-ssu [+o merlin1991] by ChanServ |
| 13:06.58 | *** mode/#maemo-ssu [-o merlin1991] by ChanServ |
| 13:10.43 | Raimu | Maybe Wolfram Alpha would know "what is merlin1991's birthday" |
| 13:11.58 | Raimu | Alas, not. ._. |
| 13:13.10 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, but a good approach I already considered. Alas WA is human-configured mainly |
| 13:13.42 | DocScrutinizer | it doesn't have a single bit of own intelligence |
| 13:14.10 | DocScrutinizer | basically a huge expert system filled with rules it can apply on the local factoid database |
| 13:14.21 | Raimu | Yup. |
| 13:14.51 | Raimu | It would know a celebrity's birthday because it's such a well-known fact, but us mere mortals... |
| 13:15.18 | DocScrutinizer | no way |
| 13:15.39 | DocScrutinizer | well, I'm a celebrity but nobody knows my birthday ;-P |
| 13:16.59 | DocScrutinizer | and actually I prefer it stays unknown |
| 13:20.40 | Raimu | :D |
| 13:24.18 | Raimu | It has data for me on Hollywood star birthdays but it didn't know Stephen Elop's one (it can be found on Wikipedia). :p |
| 13:25.27 | Raimu | So yeah, "intelligent" webcrawlers would rock the world. |
| 13:38.18 | amiconn | ~weather eddb |
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| 17:23.13 | dreamer | hmm, anyone else having problems with the battery monitor on n900? |
| 17:23.54 | dreamer | I got an update this week and now it doesn't signal when I'm charging or what the current charge is (just says APMD connected) |
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| 18:17.25 | ShadowJK | apmd? Is that advanced power monitor thing? |
| 18:17.47 | freemangordon | kill that. with fire :D |
| 18:18.31 | ShadowJK | I was going to say that, but self-censored :) |
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| 20:04.52 | Sc0rpius | hi |
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| 21:44.41 | DocScrutinizer | hands out torches and forks |
| 21:48.06 | DocScrutinizer | dreamer: on a more serious statement: I think there's only one *proper* battery monitor app available for N900, and that's bq27* shellscript |
| 21:49.53 | DocScrutinizer | for all I know all other apps either use HAL (guesstimate at its finest, just like battery icon in status bar) or they rely on bq27200.ko kernel module and sysfs nodes, which are known to break things and a so badly deprecated we should nuke them off God's great earth |
| 21:50.25 | DocScrutinizer | s/and a /and are / |
| 21:55.34 | dreamer | DocScrutinizer: hmmm |
| 21:55.55 | dreamer | well, it always worked just fine |
| 21:56.04 | dreamer | BatteryGraph still works though |
| 21:56.10 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, you thought that |
| 21:56.24 | DocScrutinizer | battery graph probably using HAL |
| 21:58.14 | DocScrutinizer | bq27200.ko however could either cause reboots when you for example use h-e-n (stopping then restarting bme), or (in an other even worse fsckdup version) could actually damage your hardware, due to locking in I"C got removed systemwide, to stop bme from causing reboot |
| 21:58.20 | DocScrutinizer | I2C even |
| 21:59.48 | DocScrutinizer | in current powerkernel it's blacklisted by default, due to all those severe issues |
| 22:02.20 | DocScrutinizer | aiui you can unblacklist it on your own peril. This will make all battery monitors "work" like on PK49 (48?), risking your device escaping blue magic smoke in worst case |
| 22:05.08 | DocScrutinizer | s/escaping/emitting/. |
| 22:06.24 | DocScrutinizer | "why doesn't it work anymore?" "well, the blue magic smoke escaped. Did you open it?" |
| 22:55.47 | dreamer | DocScrutinizer: ouch |
| 22:55.59 | DocScrutinizer | indeed |
| 22:56.00 | dreamer | hehe |
| 22:56.24 | dreamer | well, I try not to go too deep in to the internals, but it's too bad that it doesn't work anymore ;) |
| 23:06.09 | Raimu | DocScrutinizer: By bq27* script do you mean for example bq27200.sh on maemo.cloud-7? |
| 23:27.24 | DocScrutinizer | yep |
| 23:29.44 | DocScrutinizer | those scripts using i2ctools are considered relatively safe (unless you mess with i2ctools and don't know what you're doing), they work on all kernels as long as bq27200.ko kernel module not loaded, don't actually cause any permamnet trouble and deliver reasonable values for result, if you know to read them |
| 23:30.32 | DocScrutinizer | permanent even |