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| 08:16.28 | bwegh | morning |
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| 09:30.11 | TelePuzik | Hello All! |
| 09:31.40 | oho | good morning |
| 10:06.30 | *** join/#htc-blueangel cp15_ (n=8fa4660d@www.it-schaller.de) |
| 10:06.49 | cp15_ | Good morning |
| 10:09.15 | cp15_ | Hi immolo, are you there? |
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| 10:20.33 | oho | Hi cp15_ |
| 10:21.41 | cp15_ | Hi oho |
| 10:22.51 | oho | I played a bit with gomunicator in glade and looked at the code --- it is quite messy |
| 10:23.24 | cp15_ | Sure it is |
| 10:23.30 | cp15_ | Any improvement is welcome |
| 10:23.45 | oho | do you think we should seperate the functionality for the BA from the functionality of other devices ? |
| 10:23.51 | oho | or are they very similar ? |
| 10:23.57 | cp15_ | Absolutely |
| 10:24.14 | cp15_ | Don't think so |
| 10:24.40 | cp15_ | The encapsulation and decapsulation is BA specific, and the vibrator works probably different on other platforms too |
| 10:25.09 | oho | ok - I will look into how we could impliment a config option and make more stuff available for the BA |
| 10:25.31 | oho | i looked at the cvs stamps and no one seems to be working on it at the moment |
| 10:25.46 | cp15_ | Actually some kind of autodetection would be nice |
| 10:26.01 | oho | ok |
| 10:26.27 | cp15_ | It worked so far for me (minus some problems of course) so I didn't change much last time |
| 10:26.47 | cp15_ | But I know the code isn't very pretty |
| 10:26.48 | oho | but as we said before, there is still quite a bit missing |
| 10:27.00 | cp15_ | Like? |
| 10:27.20 | oho | provider name, signal strength |
| 10:27.35 | cp15_ | Provider name works for me, signal strength doesn't |
| 10:27.38 | oho | a nicer gui |
| 10:27.44 | cp15_ | Yeah :-) |
| 10:28.51 | oho | I will work on it and let you know how I get on. Do you know where to get write access to the cvs from ? first I will just do the changes localy, but in the long run I will to use the cvs |
| 10:29.32 | cp15_ | Write to w4xy and ask him. Unfortunately I am no administrator for xanadux and can't give you access |
| 10:29.48 | oho | ok will do - thanks |
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| 10:47.06 | cp15_ | oho: Do you plan to come to the CCC Congress between christmas and new year? |
| 10:52.08 | oho | hmmm... I don't think so, due to lack of time. I have been to two camps which was fun |
| 10:52.38 | cp15_ | Have you been at WTH? |
| 10:52.44 | bwegh | morning, cp15_ |
| 10:52.57 | cp15_ | Morning bwegh |
| 10:53.03 | oho | but if i get a cheap flight I might, as I have a few friends in the berlin ccc |
| 10:53.12 | oho | hi bwegh |
| 10:53.16 | bwegh | hi oho |
| 10:53.22 | oho | no I haven't been to wth yet |
| 10:54.04 | cp15_ | In which part of the uk are you? Flights from London to Berlin should be quite cheap |
| 10:55.30 | cp15_ | Probably I will give a little talk about linux on the BA |
| 10:55.31 | oho | I am actually German and will go home over xmas. I live near Karlsruhe |
| 10:55.50 | oho | would be interested in listening to that |
| 10:56.28 | bwegh | oho, you live near Karlsruhe? where? |
| 10:56.39 | oho | Bad Herrenalb |
| 10:56.46 | cp15_ | Hope we get a better gomunicator till then |
| 10:56.47 | bwegh | Durmersheim here |
| 10:56.53 | oho | is about 30 minutes from KA |
| 10:57.07 | bwegh | its betwenn Rastatt and Karlsruhe |
| 10:57.11 | bwegh | i know it, oho ;) |
| 10:57.43 | oho | cp15_: Wink mit dem Zaunpfahl ;-) |
| 10:57.51 | oho | don't know what that is in English |
| 10:58.11 | oho | bwegh: been to Durmersheim before |
| 10:58.28 | oho | it's a small world |
| 10:58.45 | bwegh | oho: what for? normaly you dont go to Durmersheim - except three things: a girl, lamm or xxl sports bar |
| 10:59.32 | cp15_ | oho: www.leo.org knows it: "to give a broad hint"... But not as nice as the german one |
| 10:59.38 | bwegh | maybe motoball or tennis could be reasons to do there, too |
| 10:59.45 | oho | I drove through it once, can't remember what I was doing |
| 11:00.02 | bwegh | hehe |
| 11:00.10 | oho | cp15_: yeah, but still that's not the same |
| 11:00.34 | cp15_ | oho: What are you doing in UK? |
| 11:00.58 | oho | I am doing a PhD in CS |
| 11:01.40 | cp15_ | In what area? |
| 11:02.54 | oho | Context aware systems and Artificial Immune Systems |
| 11:03.45 | oho | I am doveloping memory structures and profiling systems to capture behaviour of users |
| 11:04.28 | cp15_ | Sounds interesting |
| 11:04.52 | oho | yes it is really good fun |
| 11:05.07 | cp15_ | Then you definetly have the right skills to improve gomunicator |
| 11:05.22 | oho | would be nice to get the BA working for my project ;-) |
| 11:05.38 | oho | cp15_: hope so, but I am not the greatest C fan |
| 11:05.46 | oho | I really like python |
| 11:06.07 | oho | but time is always an issue |
| 11:06.16 | cp15_ | Like here |
| 11:06.55 | oho | but if some thing is fun .... |
| 11:08.06 | cp15_ | If I would sum up what I could have earned when doing something for customers instead of hacking the BA it would be a very expensive project |
| 11:08.52 | oho | can imagine, but I see it as a hobby |
| 11:08.57 | cp15_ | But the BA is a nice device, and of course I don't want to use windows :-) |
| 11:10.08 | oho | same here, I started developing my prototype for win CE, but they don't give you any real access to the BT and wifi layers |
| 11:10.19 | oho | also it crashes at least once a day |
| 11:12.21 | cp15_ | I was told access to the camera is also a hot topic, since HTC offers no APIs for this |
| 11:13.04 | oho | I am not too worried about the camera, but it would indeed be nice to get it working |
| 11:13.39 | oho | I still don't understand why they are not just releasing the specs, as some one will find them out sooner or later anyway |
| 11:13.46 | cp15_ | It would be really nice if the resolution would be high enough to scan a barcode. But it isn't |
| 11:14.20 | oho | there are low resolution barcodes available |
| 11:15.00 | cp15_ | Yeah, but I was thinking of something like this: Out of sugar? Just make a photo of the barcode and you will get it on your shopping list |
| 11:15.22 | oho | yeah that would be nice |
| 11:15.33 | oho | do you know what resolution is needed for that ? |
| 11:16.13 | cp15_ | Don't know... Maybe it even works, because last time I tried I used a barcode with more information |
| 11:16.41 | oho | but as you said before, the camera needs to work first |
| 11:17.19 | oho | is any one working in it ? |
| 11:17.45 | cp15_ | Taking a photo shouldn't be too difficult. The Camera is probably connected to SSP, there is a driver for linux existing, so you just have to connect the loose ends |
| 11:17.51 | oho | but what I need first is the wifi - hope the hx4700 guys make some progress soon and we can just use the code ;-) |
| 11:18.32 | cp15_ | Making movies is another thing. The video port is probably connected to the ATI chip which has no public documentation |
| 11:19.05 | cp15_ | I think we will get wifi sooner than the hx4700 people |
| 11:19.40 | oho | would be very nice |
| 11:19.46 | cp15_ | We have already a driver which does something... But not yet the thing it should |
| 11:20.21 | cp15_ | Extending gomunicator to work over voip when at home and over gsm when not is the thing I would like to see |
| 11:20.38 | oho | sounds promising |
| 12:53.48 | bwegh | gtg cu |
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| 14:09.36 | oho | cp15_ : I thought a bit about your suggestion of integrating SIP into the gomunicator. How about the other way around ? There is for instance a nice sip client called minisip around, which could be extended to handel GSM calls. As this work is more or less complete it would be a shame not to use the code |
| 14:17.23 | Funklord | most of the sip/voice stacks I've tried are broken |
| 14:17.58 | Funklord | they have flaky sound support and focus too much on the protocol |
| 14:19.22 | oho | have you tried minisip ? |
| 14:19.42 | Funklord | no |
| 14:20.12 | oho | I think the stacks only provide the core functions and the rest needs to be implemented byt the application |
| 14:20.26 | oho | look here: http://www.gnu.org/software/osip/doc/html/ |
| 14:21.52 | Funklord | I'd like a sip stack with native jack support |
| 14:22.00 | Funklord | ie. non-blocking |
| 14:22.41 | oho | I don't know off one - I just started looking at it |
| 14:23.25 | oho | when improving gomunicator I think we should at least keep the extension for sip calls in mind |
| 14:23.45 | Funklord | oho: I agree fully =) |
| 14:24.02 | Funklord | I've been using kphone in windows ce |
| 14:24.14 | oho | I like skype in CE |
| 14:24.17 | Funklord | my home phones are sip based |
| 14:24.43 | oho | but as gomunicator is a bit of a mess, I thought it might be better to start from the other end |
| 14:25.36 | Funklord | afaik gomunicator doesn't handle sound at all? |
| 14:25.59 | Funklord | only controls serial devices and mixers |
| 14:26.50 | oho | yes |
| 14:27.43 | Funklord | erm before, I meant sjphone not kphone, obviously =P |
| 14:28.15 | oho | would like to see kde on CE |
| 14:29.07 | Funklord | anyhow I believe some serious thought needs to be put into mixing, sound paths and api to use on the BA to get a good calling experience |
| 14:29.53 | Funklord | I believe the best way to do it would be to use jack as an audio server |
| 14:30.03 | oho | agree - I don't know much about that yet, but I have begun to read up on it |
| 14:30.49 | oho | jack seems to be very light weight - which is good |
| 14:31.22 | Funklord | and it doesn't suffer from latency |
| 14:32.07 | Funklord | imagine if you stack 3 filters on your phone call, the latency would be like 2sec |
| 14:32.09 | oho | I will have a look how the minisip guys have done it |
| 14:32.29 | Funklord | unless the filters are hard-coded into the app |
| 14:34.02 | oho | but def. some proper planing is required |
| 14:58.27 | cp15_ | oho: Haven't looked at minisip, but the functionality of a sip phone is usually pretty simple, way too simple for using it with gsm |
| 15:00.50 | oho | cp15_ : I will look into it further and try to come up with a good hybrid design |
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| 15:59.39 | cp15_ | Going home now |
| 15:59.43 | cp15_ | bbl |
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| 16:41.19 | cp15 | re |
| 16:46.18 | Funklord | hey cp15 |
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| 16:52.06 | cp15 | Hi Funklord |
| 16:52.45 | Funklord | it's salary weekend, so I'm happy |
| 16:52.54 | Funklord | you going out? |
| 16:53.35 | cp15 | In a few minutes I will go to a few friends |
| 16:53.40 | cp15 | But tomorrow I have to work |
| 16:56.17 | Funklord | ah, bummer =P |
| 16:56.32 | Funklord | I'm employed atm, so don't need to worry about weekend work |
| 16:57.09 | cp15 | Well, there are lot of tasks you can only do at the weekend |
| 16:57.39 | cp15 | But it gets a bit too much the last months |
| 16:58.09 | oho | you need to relax at least one day a week :-) |
| 16:58.42 | cp15 | I relaxed already enough this week :-) |
| 16:59.10 | oho | so no excuse not to work then ;-) |
| 17:00.13 | Funklord | when I was self-employed I used to sit in a cafeteria all day long and work, about 15h a day |
| 17:00.45 | cp15 | In a cafeteria? Don't think its the right location for work |
| 17:01.06 | Funklord | it's very relaxing |
| 17:01.18 | cp15 | And probably disturbing... |
| 17:01.23 | Funklord | and I had all our company lines there via wireless and sip |
| 17:01.28 | oho | are you sure you didn't just look at the women ;-) |
| 17:01.37 | Funklord | oho: that too =PPP |
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| 17:02.48 | oho | which sd card reader have you guys got ? I am getting fed up using my h3900 as a writer |
| 17:04.01 | cp15 | I have a cheap one which fits in a 5 1/4" mount and has also usb, firewire, serial and some other connectors at the front |
| 17:05.06 | cp15 | It works ok, but misses the first card insert. You have to rmmod usb-storage and then modprobe it again |
| 17:05.19 | oho | ah ok - so most of them should work then. I think I will buy a cheap usb one |
| 17:05.34 | cp15 | If you change the card later it is recognized |
| 17:05.56 | immolo | my usb one works fine expect sometime I have to mount twice |
| 17:06.10 | immolo | not an issue if you use dbus and hal |
| 17:06.18 | Funklord | hmm.. I never had any weirdness with mine |
| 17:06.28 | cp15 | Yes, all card readers I know use the usb-storage, sometimes there are problems with card changes |
| 17:06.39 | Funklord | but I've had a couple that didn't work at all |
| 17:06.49 | cp15 | Hi immolo, good to see you back. How are you and you daughter? |
| 17:07.15 | immolo | we are both fine now |
| 17:07.23 | immolo | good to see you also cp15 |
| 17:08.16 | cp15 | Ok, then lets get back to the topic ;-) Is your oe useable again? |
| 17:08.18 | oho | Hi immolo |
| 17:08.31 | immolo | hey oho |
| 17:09.21 | immolo | cp15- not yet, I did my backup so fast I suptidly forgot permissions carrying across |
| 17:09.50 | cp15 | When do you think you have fixed it? |
| 17:11.14 | cp15 | Because I have made already a lot of changes to your last image and want to make a clean integration before the changes get too many. |
| 17:33.10 | oho | first step done, OE is building gomunicator ipks which work |
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| 17:37.35 | cp15 | Including the desktop config & icon? That one was missing in the last ipkg |
| 17:37.43 | cp15 | Ok, I have to leave now |
| 17:37.46 | cp15 | See you later |
| 17:39.09 | oho | see you |
| 17:43.17 | immolo | sorry cp15 I had a memory loss and forgot I was talking to you |
| 17:44.03 | immolo | I'll start emerging monotone and bitbake right after I do this dvd |
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| 18:26.26 | rob_w | hi all |
| 18:28.00 | oho | hi rob_w |
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| 20:35.11 | JuNuKN | l |
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| 21:26.47 | *** join/#htc-blueangel iclem (n=chatzill@iclem.net) |
| 21:57.19 | iclem | hi |
| 21:58.29 | iclem | i would like to know if someone here is involved in himalaya linux dev |
| 22:13.37 | *** join/#htc-blueangel lamikr (n=chatzill@aragorn.kortex.jyu.fi) |
| 22:13.41 | lamikr | Hi |
| 22:15.26 | iclem | lamikr: Hi |
| 22:16.59 | lamikr | Have you ever used gomunicator for sending SMS messages? |
| 22:17.45 | iclem | I've never used Gomunicator at all =) |
| 22:17.55 | iclem | sorry, can't help |
| 22:18.28 | lamikr | Well, no problem :-) |
| 22:18.38 | lamikr | Do you have blueangel? |
| 22:31.33 | lamikr | cp15: Are you online? |
| 22:32.06 | iclem | lamikr: no, himalaya |
| 22:33.03 | lamikr | iclem: What kind of device is himalaya? Does it have intel hardware? |
| 22:33.54 | iclem | lamikr: yes, http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Himalaya |
| 22:35.41 | lamikr | nice looking device. Are you able to boot it to Linux? |
| 22:36.21 | iclem | yes, using either the xda-dev kernel or the blueangel one |
| 22:36.41 | iclem | but not GUI |
| 22:38.09 | lamikr | So you are able to connect it with SSH/telnet but do not yet have lcd driver? |
| 22:40.09 | iclem | lcd is working, as I see kernel boot log |
| 22:41.23 | iclem | but I don't know if current kernel support himalaya hw as well as blueangel hw |
| 22:43.09 | iclem | i've sshed on it, tried to load some modules |
| 22:43.21 | iclem | but i've no idea on how load GPE or OPIE |
| 22:43.35 | lamikr | Ok... But basically you should be able to boot also to X if you have LCD driver. |
| 22:46.28 | iclem | how do you do it ? |
| 22:47.50 | lamikr | I have ipaq h6340 by myself. It is very different hardware from TI. I am building GPE rootfs by myself by using oe build system. After the gpe image is ready I just extract it to my MMC card or NFS partition. After that I usually install latest kernel over it and just boot the kernel with command that asks to mount the rootfs where the gpe is extracted. After that gpe's initscripts take care from the rest. |
| 22:49.05 | iclem | I've not managed to boot with rootnfs yet, i will give a try |
| 22:49.18 | iclem | what is oe ? |
| 22:49.25 | iclem | openembeded ? |
| 22:51.17 | lamikr | Yes, oe.handhelds.org. Basically it is a huge build system that you can install to your computer and issue command "bitbake gpe-image" ---> Wait many hours that gpe is build. |
| 22:51.56 | lamikr | It consist of 3 different things. |
| 22:52.34 | iclem | Ok, i'm not sure fd and ts are operational for himalay but it can be the test |
| 22:52.45 | lamikr | 1) monotone is used as a distributed version control repository. (Many people do not like from it because it is quite slow) |
| 22:53.28 | lamikr | 2) Then there is bitbake that is written with python... You can compare bitbake to "make"... |
| 22:55.50 | lamikr | 3) Then there is this huge build dependency and bitbakes makefile collection... Basically there is a task called gpe-image which is dependent from many apps, and each apps may have their own dependencies to libraries etc... So when you start building gpe-image for example, oe will first start to build glibc and crosscompiler for you and then continue from that... |
| 22:58.35 | lamikr | iclem: Yes, I recommend testing it. I have once spends weeks for trying to get working gpe rootfs by building everything from scratsch, and with OE things are just much more simpler and automatic. |
| 23:00.03 | lamikr | After you have bitbake and monotone installed, you need to download the monotones initial db... That is slow process that may take hours. So better just to leave it downloading and go to sleep. |
| 23:00.31 | iclem | ok, what do I need else ? I have a compiled a xscale crosstoolchain and kernel-2.6, may it work ? |
| 23:01.26 | lamikr | Yes, it should work... But actually all you should need is your x86 gcc, as oe will build the crosstoolchain for you... |
| 23:01.55 | iclem | good news, i will give a try |
| 23:02.19 | lamikr | After you have downloaded the oe.db (it is the repository), you can extract the current build script head from that to your harddrive. |
| 23:04.14 | lamikr | Then you need to find out whether your device has already the machine configuration file in oe. Thet are listed in directory org.openembedded.dev/conf/machine (currently there is about 70 different) |
| 23:06.08 | lamikr | Each of these machine configuration files, describe the kernel that the machine wants to build, what kind of compiler instructions the kernel needs, etc. |
| 23:07.27 | lamikr | Once you have found your device from the list or made new one, you need to make one more file... It is called local.conf and there you describe where is the temp dir, oe can use for building, where it can put sources it downloads from net, etc... |
| 23:08.34 | lamikr | I recommend reserving own temp dir for oe, as actually it will put there also all usefull things, like crosstool, libraries it builds and also the final image that gets build. |
| 23:09.41 | lamikr | ...and reserve 5-6 gig space for oe to build stuff!!! Sources will only take about 500 mb, but once oe extract them and build them, it takes suprisingly lot of space... |
| 23:10.28 | lamikr | There is pretty good doc at http://oe.handhelds.org/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/GettingStarted |
| 23:10.53 | lamikr | Huh, I am ready with my "intro to oe" :-) |
| 23:11.16 | iclem | I'm on it |
| 23:11.48 | iclem | many thanks |
| 23:12.29 | lamikr | No problem... :-) If you want to listen, I could still list the dirs that are most interesting ones... |
| 23:12.54 | iclem | yes ;) go on |
| 23:14.04 | lamikr | 1) Oe will build crosscompiler stuff that it uses to tmp/cross dir. I am actually using that for building other stuff also. PB15 gave info how he uses that for building gomunicator, and it worked ok also for me. |
| 23:14.34 | lamikr | 2) Final image will be build to tmp/deploy/image dir |
| 23:15.20 | lamikr | 3) Separately installable packages that can be installed with "ipkg" tool will be put to tmp/deploy/ipk dir . (ipkg is a little similar to rpm) |
| 23:16.17 | lamikr | 4) machine configs are in org.openembedded.dev/conf/machine dir |
| 23:17.24 | lamikr | 5) Install info for different apps are under /org.openembedded.dev/packages dir. There is very huge list of different kernels available for example in /org.openembedded.dev/packages/linux dir |
| 23:18.05 | lamikr | 6) Build scripts for images that tide up several apps are in /org.openembedded.dev/packages/meta dir |
| 23:19.07 | lamikr | But basically by following http://oe.handhelds.org/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/GettingStarted should help you get started. And if you have problems you can go to "oe" irc channel or "gpe" channel to ask help. |
| 23:20.23 | lamikr | That's it :-) |
| 23:21.25 | iclem | wow, it announce some good nights for me ;) |
| 23:22.30 | lamikr | Yes, but if things work you can actually go to sleep, and let oe to build :-) |
| 23:24.17 | iclem | now I just hope current kernel is ready for gui |
| 23:24.24 | iclem | again, many thanks |
| 23:25.04 | lamikr | But oe is not as perfect I propably get it sound, but for getting basic framework up it is best that I know... The apps that are in the distro have also some bugs, and sometimes somebody commits in something that fails to compile... But then you can either try to fix it or wait fix from somebody else and continue build after that. |
| 23:25.22 | lamikr | No problem :-) |
| 23:27.26 | lamikr | I am myself in stuck with sending sms messages. I got gomunicator communicating with the gsm module of my device yesterday nicely... When I try to send sms message everything seems to go fine. But after last command is send from gomunicator to gsm module, it returns error code 21 and refuses to send the sms :-( |
| 23:28.04 | lamikr | I just do not see what is going wrong as things should go just like it is documented. |
| 23:34.31 | cp15 | re |
| 23:38.21 | lamikr | Hi cp15 |
| 23:39.19 | cp15 | Hi lamikr |
| 23:39.44 | iclem | hi cp15 |
| 23:39.52 | cp15 | Hi iclem |
| 23:40.06 | cp15 | So some answers... |
| 23:40.16 | lamikr | With small changes I got the gomunicator talking nicely with my gsm module. But when I try to send |
| 23:40.30 | lamikr | answers? |
| 23:40.40 | cp15 | For the questions I found in the log |
| 23:40.44 | iclem | howtos |
| 23:40.57 | cp15 | for the sms problem: Maybe you need to set the sms central |
| 23:41.44 | cp15 | iclem: for the himalaya: llange is working on it, I give you his email address via PM |
| 23:42.21 | iclem | iilange ? yes i've noticed his interest in kernel-discuss archives |
| 23:43.08 | cp15 | llange, I think |
| 23:43.26 | iclem | right |
| 23:43.44 | lamikr | cp15: I made small changes to gomunicator and put it to send sms center phoenumber just before sending the sms pdu but I did not noticed any differences. Do you get sms messages sent if you put that? |
| 23:44.29 | cp15 | Haven't tried it, but sms sending in general works for me |
| 23:44.53 | cp15 | I will see if I can find out what error code 21 means |
| 23:46.30 | cp15 | invalid index |
| 23:46.45 | lamikr | Thanks... After pdu and "\032" are send to gsm module, I get this: CMS ERROR: 21 |
| 23:47.51 | cp15 | Maybe the phone can't assing a sms id by itself |
| 23:48.37 | lamikr | cp15: Hmm, could it be that... I needed to make small changes to init code. |
| 23:49.09 | cp15 | Try setting p->pid in pdu_new to a value different from 0 |
| 23:49.50 | cp15 | What changes? |
| 23:51.33 | lamikr | Wait, I will compile and test. |
| 23:52.58 | lamikr | p->pid change did not help, same error. |
| 23:53.20 | cp15 | Hmm... |
| 23:54.27 | cp15 | Ah... Got a better explanation for the CMS ERROR 21 |
| 23:54.33 | cp15 | 21 - "Short message transfer rejected" |
| 23:54.33 | cp15 | This cause indicates that the equipment sending this cause does not wish to accept this short message, although it could have accepted the short message since the equipment sending this cause is neither busy nor incompatible. |
| 23:54.45 | cp15 | But not really useful |
| 23:55.22 | lamikr | I needed to change command AT+CPMS="SM", "SM", "SM" to AT+CPMS="SM" as the first one was returning error. |
| 23:55.48 | cp15 | Have you tried to set it to something else? |
| 23:55.59 | cp15 | Maybe it can't buffer the sms on the sim card |
| 23:58.02 | cp15 | Try AT+CPMS="ME","ME","ME" |
| 23:58.02 | *** part/#htc-blueangel iclem (n=chatzill@iclem.net) |