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| 00:19.48 | *** topic/#gsoc is Google Summer of Code 2018 | Accepted Projects announced on April 23rd (16:00 UTC) | https://g.co/gsoc |
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| 09:46.48 | embden | @Robert_S, hello, I have a proposition. Is it possible next year to differentiate a stipend based not a location but on a task's difficulty. Today we have a situation when one student for a hard task can receive 2.5 times less than other student for a quite easy task. It doesn't really motivate exceptional students from 3rd world countries to work on hard task/participate in gsoc. |
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| 09:56.25 | PulkoMandy | the differentiation is made that way because before there was a fixed amount for everyone, and students from some 3rd world countries would work for a month to get the initial payment, which was more than enough to pay their whole studies and more |
| 09:56.29 | PulkoMandy | and then they would disappear |
| 09:57.23 | PulkoMandy | the idea is that the money should enable your student to work full time on the project, so they don't have to find another job and can concentrate on it. That's it. If their motivation is "I'm earning a lot of money" they are not doing GSoC for the right reasons :) |
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| 10:07.29 | embden | PulkoMandy, your first proposition is not true, it is against human psychology. People are trying to get more, so if they received the first payment they continue to work. That's just psychology. |
| 10:08.05 | embden | PulkoMandy, or if this is true why the amount of money on GSoC is decreased almost twice? |
| 10:08.38 | embden | PulkoMandy, but let's assume that it is true |
| 10:08.55 | PulkoMandy | embden: I don't know about psychology, but I know what happened to apparently promising students working for my and other orgs |
| 10:09.45 | embden | PulkoMandy, I was a participant of GSoC2017 and some people decided not to work after the second deadline |
| 10:10.11 | embden | PulkoMandy, does this mean that differentiation doesn't work? |
| 10:11.06 | PulkoMandy | it did improve things a lot. It's still not perfect :) |
| 10:11.36 | embden | PulkoMandy, three of ten decided not to continue their work |
| 10:11.41 | PulkoMandy | there used to be an initial $500 payment just for getting your application selected. We had students getting just this and then never working on anything |
| 10:11.42 | embden | out of ten |
| 10:12.32 | embden | PulkoMandy, this is not the reason for differentiating stipends, it is possible just to pay after the first deadline (as it is done now) |
| 10:14.15 | embden | PulkoMandy, let's assume that stipends are just to allow people to not look for a job during gsoc - I agree that is a very good reason for a stipend |
| 10:20.44 | embden | PulkoMandy, today we have that easiest projects a less time-consuming than the hardest one. So, the best students will look for a relevant compensation for their time in case of hard projects. So, most of them wouldn't even try to take a harder project. |
| 10:25.27 | PulkoMandy | it depends. What motivates me to contribute to open source project is not the money (in most cases I'm not getting paid, at all). It's the challenge. So I'd rather take a complex project where I can learn a lot |
| 10:26.24 | PulkoMandy | and this is also what we look for in our students. What they achieve during the summer isn't worth much, what matters is wether they will continue contributing after the summer is over |
| 10:27.03 | PulkoMandy | so in our case, I find it better that the stipend is not that high. This way, students who just want to earn some money will get a less interesting but more paying job, and we get only the students who are here for the challenge |
| 10:27.17 | embden | For example, there is a project https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/organizations/5674023002832896/. I would say that it require only a book, a laptop and three hours per day. At the same time, there are mixed software/hardware projects where a participant should have oscilloscopes, dev boards and etc. Also, such projects might be quite time-consuming and sometimes it requires to work 8-10 hours per day. So, the main question is why th |
| 10:31.21 | PulkoMandy | the GSoC rules says projects should be ~30 hours per week. If organizations are putting much simpler things as project, they are just giving away free money to students and maybe this should be reported to Google |
| 10:31.33 | PulkoMandy | if they set unrealistic goals, they should get no students applying to their ideas |
| 10:31.57 | embden | PulkoMandy, at the same time one of my fellow students said that he will participate in GSoC |
| 10:32.03 | PulkoMandy | and if special hardware is required, it is not up to Google to fund it. In our cases, it happened that the org bought dev boards and let the student use them for the duration of the project |
| 10:33.53 | embden | PilkoMandy, and to do this he applied to be an exchange student in German university. "Why to work for $3600 if you can move to another country and get more" |
| 10:34.26 | embden | PulkoMandy* |
| 10:35.45 | PulkoMandy | I'm not sure people at Google would be happy about that |
| 10:37.48 | embden | I want only to say that 90% of people treat GSoC as a source of money and don't care about open-source at all. |
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| 10:46.12 | PulkoMandy | but as a mentor, I'm interested in the other 10%. So, anything we can do to make it less attractive to these 90% helps me find the students I want to be mentoring :) |
| 10:47.49 | wz1000 | the stipend situation is a bit disheartening tbh... Last year haskell.org wasn't accepted into gsoc and ran their own summer program, so I got the full $5500 stipend |
| 10:48.20 | wz1000 | but this year I'm going to get less than half($2400) for the same(or what seems like even more) work |
| 10:48.38 | wz1000 | it's not really about the money, I agree |
| 10:48.43 | wz1000 | I would probably do it for free |
| 10:59.33 | embden | PulkoMandy, but your own intern is GSoC'16 intern with another organization. Wikimedia. I am not sure that he doesn't do it for money. |
| 11:00.22 | PulkoMandy | yes. Things are still not perfect :) |
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| 11:14.19 | embden | PulkoMandy, and your second intern is also was an intern twice in different orgs. And currently working in two startups: http://hrily.co/Resume/#! |
| 11:15.30 | PulkoMandy | we'll see. In his application he said he had no commitment that would conflict. If he does not commit enough work, we fail him at the end of the community bonding or at the end of the first coding period. |
| 11:15.50 | PulkoMandy | if he can manage 3 jobs and still get work done for all of them, I don't see a problem on our side |
| 11:16.16 | PulkoMandy | what you list is from 2017, so where do you see "currently"? |
| 11:16.34 | PulkoMandy | ah right, in the other column |
| 11:16.50 | PulkoMandy | well, we'll see, but I don't have a problem failing students if there is not enough work getting done. |
| 11:17.37 | PulkoMandy | we did not get much student applying to our org this year, so we didn't have hard choices to make from the start. We could accept everyone with convincing applications, and we'll be watching for student activity during community bonding |
| 11:21.39 | embden | PulkoMandy, I don't have anything against your projects. I understand that student is ineligible but nobody cares. I can write it here CAPS LOCKed and nobody will care. I want only to say that the current system of motivation in GSoC is far from ideal and I am trying to change something. Because I can see that this year there are less interesting and challenging projects than in earlier years. |
| 11:23.50 | PulkoMandy | for now I'm quite happy with the students we have this year. We'll see how it goes. Writing here, even in all caps, is not very useful, if you have specific issues to raise you can reach the Google team |
| 11:23.53 | PulkoMandy | !support |
| 11:24.04 | PulkoMandy | mh... and we lost the bot :> |
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| 11:34.31 | embden | PulkoMandy, last time when I contacted Outreachy support and said that one of their alums was ineligible because she was a worker in Microsoft and provided some proofs I was said to stop haunting their interns. Since that time I don't really believe such projects' organizers. For example, Google will ask the student why he is working somewhere else, the student will remove that information and that's all. |
| 11:35.19 | PulkoMandy | as I said, if they can manage 2 jobs in parallel that's not my problem. If they can't, we just fail them at the end of community bonding, and they don't get paid |
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| 11:42.13 | embden | PulkoMandy, I thought you are looking for interns who are passion about open-source. But it seems that you are not. But again who cares. |
| 11:42.24 | PulkoMandy | ? |
| 11:42.41 | PulkoMandy | I have passion for open source, and also a daytime job. Does that seem impossible to you? |
| 11:46.22 | PulkoMandy | let's see, GSoC asks for 30 hours a week, that would be about 4.5 hours a day. I can easily hack on open source stuff from 7 to 11PM every day (that's 4 hours a day), and a lot more on week-ends. I don't see a problem if GSoC students do that and combine it with another job |
| 11:46.57 | PulkoMandy | as long as the result are there. I won't accept it as a pretext for being late or under performing |
| 11:47.05 | PulkoMandy | but if they can manage, that's fine |
| 11:48.46 | PulkoMandy | in fact if students can already manage that it's a good thing, it means they will still be able to contribute to our project (or elsewhere) even when they have a full time job. So this is the kind of contributors we're after |
| 11:49.16 | PulkoMandy | because we can't afford to hire them as part of a normal job, so we need people who can combine this with another (paying) job. |
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| 11:49.53 | embden | there is no sense in discussing it. For me it is obvious that those students just want more money. You believe that they don't. That's ok. |
| 11:50.38 | PulkoMandy | as long as they put the requested work, they deserve the money. Otherwise they don't get it |
| 11:51.14 | PulkoMandy | if I was after money I wouldn't take the risk of doing GSoC. I would get a job in any software enigneering company, get paid for sure and do less stressful work |
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| 12:10.46 | embden | PulkoMandy, what risk? If you were after money, you would have a job and a GSoC simultaneously, this is a common practice. And that's why I suggest my proposal. It would reduce attractiveness of an entry-level tasks which are preferable for full-time workers. At the same time it would increase attractiveness of GSoC for bright-minded people from the 3rd world countries, provide orgs with a possibility to attract such people and keep th |
| 12:11.23 | PulkoMandy | that's not my problem, because in my project we don't have such entry-level tasks |
| 12:11.38 | PulkoMandy | the risk I mean is that if the students are not active enough, we just fail them and they don't get paid |
| 12:11.44 | PulkoMandy | no work done, no money |
| 12:12.31 | PulkoMandy | I don't care much about what happens in other projects. If their choice is making easy project and let students get a few thousand dollars from Google with only a few hours per week, that's their problem |
| 12:13.04 | PulkoMandy | in our case, we have projects of a reasonable size, and maybe as a result of that, we have few students applying. But it is fine for us this way |
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| 18:13.19 | embden | PulkoMandy, I found out that students can work during GSoC. I am amazed |
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| 18:58.16 | sitta | !cookie |
| 18:58.22 | sitta | did I do this right? |
| 18:58.26 | sitta | :| |
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