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| 01:32.31 | austinprog | what happens if a student "fails" the mid-term reviews of the code? |
| 01:33.30 | olly | then they are out of the program |
| 01:33.50 | olly | it's not really a "review of the code" though |
| 01:33.51 | olly | it' |
| 01:34.05 | olly | s a review of how they are progressing |
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| 02:52.57 | austinprog | how do I view the chat log as I had to log off unexpectedly a while ago |
| 02:54.40 | crowell | !logs |
| 02:54.40 | gsocbot | crowell: "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/ |
| 02:54.58 | crowell | austinprog: ^^ |
| 02:58.09 | austinprog | Thank you |
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| 03:19.49 | austinprog | Does GSOC have many community college student applicants? I am at a community college presently. |
| 03:20.22 | austinprog | also some apps ask for university, would that mean im disqualified from applying to that org? |
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| 03:29.23 | olly | austinprog: so long as it's OK for google, I think you're probably just seeing orgs using "university" to mean "where you're studying" |
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| 05:32.17 | kzisme | What should we do if we are having trouble making contact with an org or the mentors of the org |
| 05:34.33 | valorie | kzisme: what methods have you tried? |
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| 05:34.56 | valorie | usually orgs list more than one way to contact them |
| 05:35.07 | valorie | and you will want to try them all |
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| 05:37.52 | kzisme | valorie: IRC - been idling all day after pinging mentors |
| 05:37.57 | kzisme | and email list |
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| 05:40.53 | valorie | ok - and no comments on your proposal yet? |
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| 05:41.33 | valorie | of course idling all day may or may not work, depending on where the team mostly lives |
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| 05:42.03 | valorie | in KDE, Asians and Americans are disappointed in irc often because most of the devels are in Europe |
| 05:42.19 | Hamza | oh great valoire |
| 05:42.23 | Hamza | Hi ppl |
| 05:42.36 | valorie | so patience - you've started rather late to try contacting them for the first time |
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| 05:42.59 | valorie | if you don't hear by the end of the weekend, that's not cool |
| 05:43.09 | Hamza | hmmm |
| 05:43.12 | Hamza | great |
| 05:43.33 | Hamza | Asians and americans |
| 05:43.46 | valorie | I've commented on most of the proposals in KDE already, other than those with lots of comments from mentors, or sheer crap |
| 05:44.01 | Hamza | sheer crap |
| 05:44.18 | valorie | as in copy/paste from the ideas page |
| 05:44.48 | valorie | who knows, maybe they will actually develop a proposal and wanted that as a placeholder |
| 05:45.07 | valorie | I don't want to prejudice anyone against that student |
| 05:45.37 | valorie | yes, we sometimes get spammy ones |
| 05:45.43 | valorie | or just c/p as I said |
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| 05:48.44 | valorie | if students put a minimal amount of effort into the proposal, I tell them that much more detail is needed; I think they deserve at least some comment |
| 05:50.06 | dumindux | valorie: Would you accept a proposal of a student who appears after the application period opens but have a good proposal over a student who has been around for a while with the org solving bugs but have a proposal which is not very good? |
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| 05:52.03 | valorie | that all depends on the student |
| 05:52.33 | valorie | we want a student who will be successful, and shows signs of sticking around to support hir code |
| 05:52.58 | Hamza | that smellls great |
| 05:53.07 | valorie | it also depends on the competition |
| 05:53.40 | valorie | but in general the student is more important than the quality of their proposal |
| 05:53.54 | valorie | that said, excellent students usually turn in great proposals |
| 05:54.13 | valorie | or ask for help in improving them |
| 05:54.46 | Hamza | dude that's awesome |
| 05:55.25 | dumindux | Sounds good. |
| 05:55.36 | Hamza | to me |
| 05:55.54 | valorie | it is a great program |
| 05:56.09 | valorie | really great opportunity for the orgs and the students both |
| 05:57.15 | Hamza | for me it's out ov this world |
| 05:58.30 | Hamza | Hey Valoire: on a serious note..... why there ain't IRC channels for many orgs |
| 05:58.43 | Hamza | i've been sticking many time |
| 05:58.56 | Hamza | ppl are not serious here |
| 05:58.59 | darnir | Hamza: Not all of them use IRC for communication |
| 05:59.24 | Hamza | i'm talking about the ones who do |
| 05:59.57 | valorie | have you tried using the alis service on freenode? |
| 05:59.57 | Hamza | ppl don't reply they are not active |
| 05:59.59 | namratab94 | It could also be because of the time difference. |
| 06:00.20 | valorie | if not, try /msg alis help |
| 06:00.21 | Hamza | alias service? |
| 06:00.34 | valorie | it is a search for freenode channels |
| 06:01.00 | darnir | There's a time difference. And IRC is often seen by many as a way for non-critical communication. |
| 06:01.08 | valorie | in large channels, *many* people hang out all the time (I do, I have a bouncer) and only speak up when a question is asked I can answer |
| 06:01.18 | valorie | darnir: great point |
| 06:01.24 | darnir | I always respond to all messages, but it may tak upto 12-16 hours to get a response. |
| 06:01.37 | valorie | usually it is used for chat, for meetings, or for all-around help/questions |
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| 06:02.06 | valorie | in KDE we must have 50 chans, used for various purposes and teams |
| 06:02.23 | valorie | sometimes I swear they are only there for the topic line |
| 06:02.23 | Hamza | hmm good |
| 06:02.46 | valorie | topics almost always have helpful links, etc. |
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| 06:03.03 | valorie | use /topic to read them if you client doesn't display them by default |
| 06:03.16 | Hamza | no they don't even have topic lines seems like trends have changed even the geeks dont prefer irc |
| 06:03.33 | valorie | I <3 IRC |
| 06:03.43 | valorie | although I refuse to use it on my phone |
| 06:03.49 | valorie | as some fanatics do |
| 06:03.58 | darnir | Hamza: I agree. Not all geeks use IRC anymore. |
| 06:04.11 | valorie | some never did |
| 06:04.21 | valorie | some people get too distracted |
| 06:04.37 | valorie | or find it unpleasant for various reasons |
| 06:04.58 | Hamza | hmmmmm btw you ppl are google representaitves or mentor of some org |
| 06:05.04 | tbr | valorie: phones with hw keyboard ftw! :) |
| 06:05.10 | valorie | is an admin for KDE |
| 06:05.16 | darnir | is a mentor for GNU |
| 06:05.26 | valorie | even with a keyboard, the screen is too tiny |
| 06:05.38 | valorie | I want my laptop and a steady connection or nothing |
| 06:05.47 | Hamza | yeah for andoid its too annoying |
| 06:06.05 | darnir | I use IRC on my android only when I'm expecting a message. |
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| 06:06.31 | valorie | I give people my number so they can text me instead |
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| 06:06.58 | Hamza | yeah the txt thing is way better |
| 06:07.42 | namratab94 | valorie: But won't that disturb you too much if too many people text you? |
| 06:08.06 | valorie | it has never been a problem yet |
| 06:08.25 | namratab94 | Oh okay. |
| 06:08.29 | valorie | but irc is the best IMO |
| 06:09.14 | darnir | IRC / email. |
| 06:09.41 | darnir | This time I have a few students who would prefer Hangout or even worse, Facebook. |
| 06:09.52 | valorie | yes, email for more involved issues |
| 06:09.55 | austinprog | Do anyone orgs ever choose to use Skype? |
| 06:10.06 | valorie | sounds very unfree |
| 06:10.12 | Hamza | facebook aint no good |
| 06:10.28 | valorie | I would never agree to use FB |
| 06:10.31 | namratab94 | How about Google hangouts for video calls? |
| 06:10.38 | valorie | bad enough I have to use it for family sometimes |
| 06:10.48 | darnir | Some orgs use Skype. |
| 06:11.02 | valorie | namratab94: there are getting to be good free as in freedom alternatives |
| 06:11.05 | darnir | Imagine using Facebook / hangouts for a GNU project. |
| 06:11.15 | Hamza | hahahhaa |
| 06:11.23 | darnir | Oh, poor RMS would go insane. |
| 06:12.10 | valorie | some KDE teams use hangouts for group meetings |
| 06:12.18 | valorie | but I prefer other means |
| 06:12.43 | namratab94 | valorie: Asked about Hangouts since GSoC is a Google sponsored event. |
| 06:12.54 | valorie | sure |
| 06:13.17 | valorie | one problem with hangouts is that people have to be over the age of 18 |
| 06:13.37 | valorie | we've had team members left out of meetings because of that |
| 06:14.13 | valorie | and while it is free as in beer, it is not free software |
| 06:14.14 | namratab94 | Isn't that a must for all the participants of GSoC to be over 18 anyways? |
| 06:14.24 | valorie | yes, so not a problem for GSoC |
| 06:14.48 | valorie | unusable for GCi |
| 06:15.03 | namratab94 | Issues would arise for Code In and other events. |
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| 06:15.09 | dumindux | hm didn't know you have to be over 18 to use hangouts. |
| 06:15.18 | valorie | yup |
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| 06:15.33 | darnir | didn't know that actually kept some people from using it anyways |
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| 06:16.34 | Hamza | when is code in 2015 coming |
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| 06:16.47 | darnir | After SoC is over |
| 06:17.13 | valorie | it is usually late fall, if they do it again |
| 06:17.18 | valorie | which I hope they will |
| 06:17.34 | Hamza | darnir you know something about this project DHCP client in Guile Scheme |
| 06:18.00 | Hamza | code in awesome i heard |
| 06:18.08 | Hamza | *is |
| 06:18.17 | valorie | awesome+exhausting |
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| 06:18.36 | namratab94 | Hamza GCi is only for those under 17 though. |
| 06:19.04 | valorie | students are like piranhas, eating up projects, stripping mentors and admins to the bone in days |
| 06:19.07 | valorie | :-) |
| 06:19.11 | darnir | Hamza: No clue. GNU is an umbrella organization. |
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| 06:19.24 | Hamza | namratab93: ooopssss =====>>i know that still thx |
| 06:19.24 | darnir | I only know about the projects related to GNU Wget. |
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| 06:19.37 | valorie | <3 wget |
| 06:19.49 | darnir | thanks valorie. |
| 06:19.59 | darnir | Don't always get to hear appreciation. Only rants |
| 06:20.15 | Hamza | and you valoire what's your field?? |
| 06:20.29 | Hamza | sorry valorie |
| 06:20.36 | darnir | We had the GSoC students finish all the small bugs we'd accumalted over the last year within days. |
| 06:20.36 | valorie | I'm active in teh community in KDE |
| 06:20.48 | valorie | and Kubuntu |
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| 06:21.05 | valorie | darnir: that is totally wonderful |
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| 06:21.12 | Hamza | kubuntu is way to light and fast |
| 06:21.13 | darnir | New potential candidates are now eating our brains out for small teaser tasks and we have none |
| 06:21.23 | valorie | see? piranhas |
| 06:21.27 | namratab94 | But do students with delayed start stand any chance valorie? |
| 06:21.27 | valorie | :-) |
| 06:21.28 | Hamza | i prefer it for system programming |
| 06:21.45 | valorie | namratab94: if you have a kickass proposal, of course |
| 06:22.07 | Hamza | kickass.to/proposal |
| 06:22.12 | Hamza | :) |
| 06:22.21 | darnir | KDE is good, Ubuntu isn't. But that's only my own view. |
| 06:22.25 | valorie | nobody is out or in until proposals close |
| 06:22.37 | valorie | the ubuntu community rocks |
| 06:22.50 | valorie | and brought Debian to the masses |
| 06:22.59 | valorie | unity I don't like |
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| 06:23.37 | valorie | but tastes differ, and that's ok |
| 06:23.44 | valorie | this is software, not religion |
| 06:23.47 | namratab94 | That's true but our chances improve if we can make contributions though, Right? Without that what is the importance of a good proposal? |
| 06:23.49 | darnir | It's canonical I don't like. :) |
| 06:24.07 | valorie | Canonical is another company looking for profit |
| 06:24.13 | valorie | they are what they are |
| 06:24.30 | valorie | they host our project so what can I say |
| 06:24.42 | darnir | Okay. Let's not discuss this firther then. |
| 06:24.47 | darnir | further* |
| 06:24.51 | valorie | namratab94: there is time to solve some bugs perhaps |
| 06:25.17 | valorie | basically at this point you have to lead with your proposal |
| 06:25.33 | valorie | it had better be well documented, as detailed as you can make it |
| 06:25.45 | valorie | spell and grammar checked if possible |
| 06:25.57 | valorie | and nicely formatted enough to be easy to read |
| 06:26.05 | darnir | thinks spell and grammar checks should be mandatory. |
| 06:26.10 | valorie | don't spend much time on the formatting part |
| 06:26.14 | Hamza | darnir you are Darshit if i am not wrong |
| 06:26.22 | namratab94 | Thanks valorie. How about getting the feedback? |
| 06:26.38 | darnir | Hamza: That matters because? |
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| 06:26.54 | valorie | of course you should join the requisite MLs and post a link to your proposal and ask for feedback |
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| 06:27.12 | valorie | and promptly respond to comments on the ML and/or melange |
| 06:27.22 | Hamza | no that does not matter |
| 06:27.41 | namratab94 | Okay. Will get onto it right away. |
| 06:27.45 | Hamza | was asking because when you told me abut wget i started checking that out |
| 06:29.05 | valorie | darnir: I'm not touchy about such a discussion, but perhaps not in this chan |
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| 06:35.25 | darnir | valorie: It was getting off-topic a little too quickly for this channel. So I figured I'll stop. |
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| 06:36.35 | Seun | Anyone here able to give some advice to a newbie? |
| 06:37.49 | darnir | Seun: Lots. Just ask your question. |
| 06:40.22 | Seun | Alright, So I waited till the 16th to even decide what organizations I wanted to decide on, but because of Finals, I wasn't able to really do much of anything on these applications till today. |
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| 06:42.15 | valorie | Seun: what's your question? |
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| 06:45.24 | Seun | Is the student application deadline a hard deadline? |
| 06:45.40 | valorie | yes |
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| 06:46.26 | valorie | after the deadline, melange will not allow anymore editing of proposals |
| 06:47.37 | valorie | if you fear you won't be prepared for this year, start now for next year |
| 06:47.40 | valorie | :-) |
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| 06:50.26 | Seun | Well, I'm graduating this year. What could I do this year to increase my chances? |
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| 06:52.18 | valorie | put all your effort into writing a good proposal and talking to prospective team and mentor |
| 06:52.36 | valorie | if they want you, they will help you make it better |
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| 06:53.42 | Seun | Alright, thanks. |
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| 06:57.10 | ujjwal | if I apply for an org and does not get accepted, does this effect my future attempt with same org? |
| 06:57.30 | valorie | no |
| 06:57.40 | valorie | especially if you improve the next time |
| 06:57.56 | valorie | also, every year has new challenges for both student and org |
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| 07:17.25 | Seun | Is there another site like en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ that contain the student manuals? The one I mentioned is down. |
| 07:20.19 | tbr | Seun: how about https://web.archive.org/web/20150315023159/http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ |
| 07:20.51 | Seun | That'll do, thx. |
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| 07:21.50 | tbr | use nav on the left or download epub/pdf as the buttons on the bottom seem to be javascript or such and don't work |
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| 07:24.33 | Guest33732 | can you help me with some of the details i need to know actually i am completely new to this |
| 07:25.55 | darnir | !faq | Guest33732 |
| 07:25.56 | gsocbot | Guest33732: "faq" is http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2015/help_page |
| 07:26.05 | darnir | Have you read this yet Guest33732 ? |
| 07:26.22 | valorie | oh thanks, good thinking tbr |
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| 07:26.38 | valorie | archive.org <3 |
| 07:26.55 | tbr | :) |
| 07:27.08 | Guest33732 | yes i tried to figure it out from there but i am not understanding it yet! |
| 07:27.34 | darnir | What do you not understand? |
| 07:27.59 | darnir | You should also try reading the Student Manual first. It has lots of good points. |
| 07:28.04 | Guest33732 | i registered for gsoc giving my basic information how do i go ahead? |
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| 07:28.22 | valorie | 1. you pick an org |
| 07:28.22 | darnir | https://web.archive.org/web/20150315023159/http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ |
| 07:28.37 | valorie | 2. you pick an idea to make into a proposal |
| 07:28.48 | valorie | 3. you write that proposal in melange |
| 07:29.03 | valorie | 4 you talk with the org/mentors about it, and make it better |
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| 07:31.46 | Guest33732 | how do i pick an org i mean where from ? |
| 07:32.04 | raincrash | hi! Can I change my address in between the coding period to receive payments to different addresses. (that is, if I get selected, ofcourse!) |
| 07:33.34 | valorie | Guest33732: pretty late in the game to be picking an org now |
| 07:33.45 | valorie | !timeline |
| 07:33.45 | gsocbot | valorie: "timeline" is http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc2015 |
| 07:34.26 | valorie | of course you are not out of time, but you had better get cracking |
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| 07:35.41 | nurupo | !next |
| 07:35.42 | gsocbot | nurupo: "next" is GSoC student applications close on 27 March at 19:00 UTC |
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| 07:44.56 | Seun | How many proposals can you submit to an umbrella organization? |
| 07:45.44 | darnir | Seun: A student can submit upto a maximum of 5 proposals. How you distribute them is entirely upto you. |
| 07:45.47 | valorie | since you are beginning late, focus on one, and make it great |
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| 07:46.13 | valorie | I've never heard of a successful student with more than two however |
| 07:46.23 | darnir | However, a greater number of proposals is usually inversely proposal to the chances of being accepted. |
| 07:46.32 | valorie | although there could have been |
| 07:47.07 | darnir | /proposal/propotional |
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| 07:51.33 | sonali | hi...this is sonali |
| 07:51.59 | valorie | yes, we can see your nick |
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| 07:54.20 | olly | valorie: there was a student who got accepted by a ludicrous number of orgs in one of the early years (about 5 I think) |
| 07:54.32 | olly | but orgs expect a lot more in a proposal these days |
| 07:54.32 | valorie | oh my |
| 07:54.35 | olly | and patches, etc |
| 07:54.50 | valorie | I don't think we have lowered our standards |
| 07:54.54 | olly | so i doubt even that 1 in 10000+ could repeat it now |
| 07:54.56 | valorie | raised them, perhaps |
| 07:55.03 | olly | yes, that's what I'm saying |
| 07:55.28 | valorie | of course there were not many orgs in the beginning either |
| 07:56.06 | valorie | sonali: what did you want to ask? |
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| 07:57.54 | raincrash | valorie: If I give a residential address now and wanted to change it later. Will all the communication be changed to the new address? |
| 07:57.55 | sonali_ | hey!! |
| 07:58.39 | olly | as a more useful data point, i've noticed that the students who we rank highest have rarely applied elsewhere (or are lying about having done so, but we've yet to see an unexpected collision) |
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| 07:59.26 | valorie | raincrash: probably that is covered in the FAQ or student manual |
| 07:59.32 | valorie | I think so, but do not know |
| 07:59.35 | valorie | !faq |
| 07:59.35 | gsocbot | valorie: "faq" is http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2015/help_page |
| 07:59.52 | olly | it can certainly take some time for a change to propagate |
| 07:59.56 | valorie | sonali: what did you want to ask? |
| 08:00.15 | olly | as the addresses get passed to a delivery company to use |
| 08:00.46 | raincrash | I couldn't find it in the manual. I will recheck. |
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| 08:01.33 | valorie | olly: I think you're right |
| 08:01.35 | sonali_ | volorie:iam interested in subsurface n tux4kids organisation |
| 08:01.50 | sonali_ | i drafted a proposal |
| 08:01.59 | valorie | most of the students who try to straddle orgs talk them into sharing mentors, which does work |
| 08:02.03 | sonali_ | so i wanted a gsoc organiser to check it |
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| 08:02.17 | olly | sonali_: ask the org to look |
| 08:02.18 | valorie | sonali_: much better to have the org/mentors check it |
| 08:02.26 | valorie | they know what they want |
| 08:02.30 | valorie | and we do not |
| 08:02.39 | olly | and it is the org who pick the proposals |
| 08:02.45 | sonali_ | oh.. okay thank u :) |
| 08:03.04 | valorie | the GSoC organizers certainly do not have time to check student proposals for sure |
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| 08:07.07 | sonali_ | do u know how many ppl would be selected in gsoc 2015?? |
| 08:07.40 | valorie | !numapps |
| 08:07.41 | gsocbot | valorie: "numapps" is 2015: 137/416 orgs. 2014: 190/371 orgs; 1304/6313 proposals (by 4420 students). 2013: 177/417 orgs; 1192/5999 proposals (by 4144 students). 2012: 180/406 orgs; 1212/6685 proposals (by 4258 students). 2011: 175/417 orgs; 1116/5474 proposals (by 3731 students). 2010: 151/367 orgs; 1026/5539 proposals (by 3464 students). |
| 08:08.25 | sonali_ | woah!! |
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| 08:08.33 | sonali_ | thats so many!! |
| 08:08.45 | valorie | you see why they could not possibly check student proposals |
| 08:09.29 | valorie | just keeping up with that many orgs will be a full-time job and a half |
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| 08:10.42 | olly | i worked out that if carols had to read them all, she could spend about a minute on each in the time available |
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| 08:11.02 | olly | she didn't see keen on the idea |
| 08:11.08 | valorie | lol |
| 08:11.16 | valorie | what a wimp! |
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| 08:12.02 | sonali_ | #join subsurface |
| 08:12.16 | sonali_ | #subsurface |
| 08:12.23 | valorie | click it |
| 08:12.32 | valorie | or put / before your command |
| 08:12.44 | valorie | like: /join #subsurface |
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| 08:14.01 | sonali_ | oh yeah..thank u :) |
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| 08:31.56 | metamash | hello? |
| 08:32.55 | Hamza | yellow |
| 08:33.44 | metamash | How long should a proposal be? |
| 08:34.01 | valorie | as long as it needs to be, and no longer |
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| 08:37.35 | metamash | any ideas on possible projects? Whats a hot area of development? |
| 08:37.43 | haWx | optimal criteria |
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| 08:40.31 | olly | apply for projects that interest you |
| 08:42.03 | valorie | ^^^ best advice of the night ^^^ |
| 08:43.27 | haWx | filter the projects statement to a couple of projects only |
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| 08:47.21 | darnir | valorie: That needs to be a factoid. |
| 08:47.29 | metamash | gnome is a cool desktop enviroment and Wine is amazing, maybe I should look into those. |
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| 08:48.08 | valorie | darnir: true that |
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| 08:56.19 | gsoc023 | hello |
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| 09:00.16 | valorie | can we help you, gsoc023? |
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| 09:03.11 | kzisme | valorie: I was looking for information to write my proposal |
| 09:03.21 | kzisme | (from the org) |
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| 09:04.38 | valorie | excellent |
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| 09:16.28 | lalala | I put a lot of images in my proposal.They were showing up earlier on, but now when I review they don't load, i.e. the default unloaded image is showing. |
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| 09:16.55 | lalala | Would it show to the person reviewing my proposal? |
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| 09:18.37 | darnir | lalala: You should ask that on #melange. They might be able to help you |
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| 09:20.30 | lalala | THanls |
| 09:20.34 | lalala | Thanks* |
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| 09:22.24 | manavmittl | hey i have written my application for an organization, can someone pls review it before i submit it? |
| 09:23.01 | |Kev| | manavmittl: Ask your org. |
| 09:23.38 | manavmittl | yes i did ask them. |
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| 09:24.15 | |Kev| | Good. They'll have a better idea of what they want than we will. |
| 09:24.33 | manavmittl | yep . true :) |
| 09:24.38 | manavmittl | thanks a lot |
| 09:24.46 | |Kev| | NP. |
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| 10:58.45 | rharish | in no case can a student edit the proposal after the submission deadline right ? |
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| 10:59.02 | rharish | but IIRC, the mentors can edit/make changes, if required ? |
| 10:59.59 | darnir | rharish: You should concentrate on submitting your *complete* proposal before the deadline. |
| 11:00.41 | rharish | darnir: yes, I've submitted the proposal already, however I've got some reviews suggesting changes which I'd like to make |
| 11:00.52 | olly | then make them |
| 11:00.58 | rharish | but my university exams start tomorrow and end on 27th |
| 11:01.07 | rharish | really leave me with very little time |
| 11:01.15 | rharish | just asking if something can be done :) |
| 11:01.39 | olly | it's a question for the org - we can't know if they'll allow you to edit afterwards |
| 11:01.53 | olly | but you shouldn't rely on being able to |
| 11:02.00 | olly | and don't nag them about it |
| 11:02.38 | rharish | olly: okay, I'll edit it if I'm allowed to |
| 11:02.53 | rharish | so it's the org's call, I see |
| 11:03.13 | olly | you can still comment after the deadline, so you can address points in comments |
| 11:03.31 | rharish | yeah, true |
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| 11:05.07 | PulkoMandy | I think last year the orgs were allowed to re-enable you to make changes after the deadline. But don't count on it, better have things ready before the deadline |
| 11:05.35 | PulkoMandy | if in doubt, at least add a comment that you are having exams and you don't know if you can make it in time |
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| 11:06.58 | rharish | PulkoMandy: yes, I'm doing just that |
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| 12:26.08 | Keeter | Hi, does the student have to be majoring in computer science or related subjects for GSoC? |
| 12:26.12 | |Kev| | No. |
| 12:26.47 | Keeter | Is any major looked upon unfavorably or is everything game? |
| 12:27.07 | |Kev| | I doubt many people care about the major. |
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| 12:27.17 | Keeter | Alright, thanks. |
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| 12:27.34 | Keeter | I just asked because some orgs ask for major and related compsci coursework. |
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| 12:28.10 | |Kev| | Only accepting students from certain majors would be quite un-gsoccish. |
| 12:28.23 | |Kev| | I'm surprised any orgs are asking for compsci students. |
| 12:29.01 | Keeter | Along with compsci coursework, the org I'm looking at also asks for math/stats coursework. |
| 12:29.39 | gevaerts | Assuming that most of the students have such a background is natural I think |
| 12:29.53 | gevaerts | So asking for coursework references just in case seems fine to me |
| 12:30.20 | |Kev| | Depends if they're asking or requiring, I guess. |
| 12:30.22 | perepujal | LOL, I'd never been able to compite in GSOC :) |
| 12:30.26 | gevaerts | It's when they reject students *just* for not following the right courses that things get questionable I'd say |
| 12:30.34 | perepujal | not ever been at the uni |
| 12:30.57 | Keeter | I guess. |
| 12:31.43 | Keeter | I'm just wondering if a compsci with a long list of compsci coursework taken might be more favorable with me with around two elective compsci classes, lol. |
| 12:31.54 | Keeter | *than |
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| 12:35.08 | |Kev| | Well, I only care that the students can demonstrate competence, I don't much care what degree they're doing. |
| 12:35.33 | |Kev| | Others may feel differently, I guess. |
| 12:35.49 | |Kev| | But then, I don't hire devs based on their degrees either, so ... *shrug* |
| 12:37.15 | Keeter | Yeah. Demonstrating competence would be like having a lot of projects done before? |
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| 12:37.41 | |Kev| | No, submitting patches and being able to write a proposal that shows you've researched and understood the projects. |
| 12:38.00 | |Kev| | Well, I guess 'yes', and demonstration of previous code is good. |
| 12:38.13 | perepujal | Keeter: not exactly, you must show research in your proposal |
| 12:39.08 | Keeter | Alright, I see. That makes sense. |
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| 12:41.36 | Keeter | With these orgs that are taking proposals for the summer, is it still possible to keep in contact and perhaps contribute to them year-round somehow? |
| 12:41.44 | |Kev| | Keeter: Most orgs will expect you to submit some patches as part of your application, though. Some people call them 'teaser tasks'. |
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| 12:41.57 | Keeter | I'm interested but I'm not sure if I'm ready for this summer, and might not be able to sign up next summer. |
| 12:42.01 | |Kev| | Keeter: Yes, for most orgs the point of GSoC is to encourage long-term contributors. |
| 12:42.55 | |Kev| | If you find orgs you're interested in, you might chat to them, get to know them. Even if you're not accepted, you might ask if they'd mentor you outside GSoC. |
| 12:43.04 | |Kev| | Some would, some wouldn't, I expect. |
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| 12:46.54 | Keeter | Alright, that's great to know. Thanks Kev. |
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| 12:54.19 | swetha | av_n |
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| 13:30.21 | sss | Hello, am I able to edit proposal after 27th? |
| 13:30.46 | sss | I mean submmited proposals |
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| 13:31.15 | Rishabh | hi, how can we save the proposal on melange ? |
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| 13:31.29 | Rishabh | to edit some details later |
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| 13:31.53 | supun | hey |
| 13:32.05 | |Kev| | sss: You should not rely on it. |
| 13:32.09 | sss | Rishabh: just press submit button |
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| 13:32.38 | sss | |Kev|: ya definitely I won't. But is there's a possibility |
| 13:33.01 | Rishabh | sss, after that the application will be visible to organization members before 27th? |
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| 13:33.04 | sss | is there any strict deadline on edit for submitted proposals? |
| 13:33.05 | |Kev| | In previous years, an org has been able to allow a proposal to be edited if they chose. It might be the same this year. |
| 13:33.17 | |Kev| | sss: Yes, the submission date is a strict deadline. |
| 13:33.37 | |Kev| | After that you can only edit it if the org allows you. (Assuming that that's even possible this year) |
| 13:33.48 | sss | Rishabh: yes, it will be visible to org. member after you submit. and don;t worry you can edit you proposal latter |
| 13:33.58 | Rishabh | sss, thanks |
| 13:34.14 | sss | |Kev|: ok, got it |
| 13:34.35 | |Kev| | Rishabh: I'd not submit something clearly unfinished without marking it, though. The poor org's probably going to read it as soon as you submit it. |
| 13:35.34 | Rishabh | I want to start adding the details in chunks |
| 13:35.51 | sss | ya, this is right. You have time for now. edit is for adding things which your org will give u as feedback |
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| 13:54.33 | priyankas | hello is anyone here? |
| 13:55.54 | Keeter | Yep. |
| 13:57.22 | priyankas | I was wondering if anyone could tell me if i was eligible to participate in gsoc 2015 as a student |
| 13:57.36 | priyankas | i am a sponsored phd student at iit kharagpur |
| 13:57.37 | priyankas | in cse |
| 13:57.47 | priyankas | and i work full time at tcs research |
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| 13:58.02 | priyankas | most of my daily job is towards my phd |
| 13:58.13 | priyankas | as my job and phd are both aligned |
| 13:58.23 | priyankas | i was wondering if that makes me eligible or ineligible for participating? |
| 13:58.33 | sss | priyankas: I guess you are |
| 13:59.00 | sss | you need to have a enrollment proof |
| 13:59.45 | gevaerts | priyankas: the big question is if you'll have enough time for gsoc I think |
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| 14:00.10 | |Kev| | priyankas: You're probably eligible (read the FAQ), but GSoC isn't suitable for you if your PhD is already a full-time job. |
| 14:00.22 | priyankas | ok |
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| 14:00.36 | |Kev| | priyankas: As GSoC is itself akin to a full-time job, and there aren't enough hours in the week to do two 40hour/week jobs and stay sane :) |
| 14:00.45 | priyankas | aaah |
| 14:00.46 | priyankas | ok |
| 14:01.03 | |Kev| | I did GSoC as a student, many years ago, during my PhD, but I drastically cut back my PhD time while doing it. |
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| 14:02.35 | priyankas | ohh |
| 14:02.45 | Keeter | Can't be from Crimea, Iran, Syria, Cuba, Sudan, and North Korea either, apparently. |
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| 14:02.59 | priyankas | i am from india :) |
| 14:03.33 | priyankas | yeah i am like a 3rd year phd student |
| 14:03.42 | priyankas | i am working on text mining of enterprise social media text |
| 14:03.57 | priyankas | the dbpedia-spotlight problems looked interesting to me |
| 14:04.01 | |Kev| | I think I did it during my 3rd year, too. But then I ended up taking 4 years for my PhD, so ... |
| 14:04.16 | sss | do Phd work in summer also? |
| 14:04.32 | Keeter | You would also have to show that your university is accredited. Besides that yeah, for you it would be a time thing, priyankas. |
| 14:04.33 | priyankas | yes.. mine is a full time job actually that focusses on my phd |
| 14:04.34 | darnir | I didn't know PhD students got a break? |
| 14:04.50 | |Kev| | darnir: Hmm? |
| 14:05.02 | gevaerts | suspects that PhDs are like any other form of education: different all over the world |
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| 14:05.16 | |Kev| | gevaerts: Vastly, yes. More so than Bachelor degrees, possibly. |
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| 14:05.27 | darnir | The last place I interned at, the PhD students never took a break. They worked round the year. |
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| 14:06.01 | darnir | Never been through the program myself though. Still need to get my MS first. |
| 14:06.02 | |Kev| | darnir: Right, but I don't think anyone said that PhD students got a holiday? |
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| 14:06.35 | darnir | I thought someone implied that. |
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| 14:06.54 | darnir | ANyways, we're getting offtopic. If carols was here, we'd get muted. |
| 14:06.57 | Keeter | Do many undergraduate freshmen or sophomores turn out to be successful candidates for gsoc? |
| 14:06.57 | priyankas | i wanted to participate in gsoc because i felt it would be a good way to get some of my ideas into open source code.. especially since there is a dedicated mentor .. which i am skeptical is possible if i get involved outside of gsoc |
| 14:06.59 | |Kev| | I cut back on my PhD time to do GSoC, but that's not the same as it being my holiday. |
| 14:07.18 | sss | This year melange has provided facility of ordering proposals, that mean no clash of students choice |
| 14:07.23 | gevaerts | darnir: it's sunday, and she's not here :) |
| 14:07.42 | darnir | Hence, the slight freedom. |
| 14:07.42 | |Kev| | priyankas: If you have an org in mind, and they participate in GSoC, you might approach them and ask if they'd be willing to do a similar thing outside GSoC. I bet some would be happy to. |
| 14:07.59 | priyankas | ok.. yes .. that should be better for me |
| 14:08.02 | |Kev| | priyankas: As the deal for the orgs is largely the same, it's the student who misses out on the stipend. |
| 14:08.13 | darnir | A lot of them would be happy to get more contributors. With or without GSoC. |
| 14:08.50 | darnir | |Kev|: There's a small amount of $500. But it wouldn't bother anyone. |
| 14:08.55 | priyankas | yeah .. the thing is .. i am kinda scared that if i contribute outside of gsoc .. i might not get any "mentorship" or "code review" or similar stuff |
| 14:09.21 | |Kev| | darnir: Well, yeah, but ... I tend not to think about that much for our org. It pays for the books etc. we send students, but it's not the biggest deal. |
| 14:09.29 | darnir | I mentored a student last year outside of GSoC, because we didn't have enough slots to select him. |
| 14:09.35 | |Kev| | priyankas: You could ask. You could explain that that's what you're looking for. |
| 14:09.39 | priyankas | ok |
| 14:09.47 | |Kev| | Some orgs won't, some orgs will, I suspect. |
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| 14:10.01 | |Kev| | Some might say "Yes, but we don't have capacity during GSoC, come back in September". |
| 14:10.05 | |Kev| | Won't know unless you ask :) |
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| 14:10.23 | priyankas | sounds good to me |
| 14:11.02 | priyankas | thanks kev, darnir, Keeter andgevaerts |
| 14:11.25 | |Kev| | Welcome. |
| 14:11.39 | Keeter | priyankas: Good luck with your PhD work. :) |
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| 14:11.59 | priyankas | :) bbye then |
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| 14:12.58 | darnir | |Kev|: Random question. How do you'll deal with proposals that just appear on melange and the student hasn't spoken to the community at all? |
| 14:13.15 | |Kev| | darnir: Completely ignore them. |
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| 14:14.22 | |Kev| | The template asks them which teasers they've done with us. They can't answer that without having spoken to us, and they must know they're not answering the question, so that implies they're spam applications. |
| 14:14.37 | darnir | Yeah. I think I'll do the same. Especially given that our ideas page makes it mandatory to complete some teaser tasks. |
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| 14:15.34 | |Kev| | If the application looks particularly good, and there's a plausible reason for not having been in touch, I guess we'd consider what to do. |
| 14:15.52 | |Kev| | But when the ideas page says "Talk to us here first", the template asks which teasers they've done, etc... |
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| 14:16.25 | |Kev| | https://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org2/google/gsoc2015/xmpp - we've got 'which of the potential mentors have you been talking to' as well. |
| 14:16.53 | |Kev| | So we're in willful ignorance at that point, I think. |
| 14:17.15 | Keeter | Oh, that's interesting... I just heard of GSoC a week ago from my professor and didn't really realize how much prior commitment the process takes... |
| 14:18.04 | darnir | |Kev|: That's interesting. We have a proposal that is more thoroughly researched than any other, but the student hasn't spoken to us at all. |
| 14:18.16 | darnir | So I was wondering how to treat with this particular case. |
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| 14:18.40 | |Kev| | If that was the case, I'd probably reply to the proposal asking which of the mentors they've been in touch with, or somesuch. |
| 14:20.01 | darnir | They haven't. I know. We're only three mentors and we sync'ed up. |
| 14:20.12 | |Kev| | I realise that :) |
| 14:20.43 | |Kev| | I'd just be inclined to gently push them with the question, instead of "YOU DIDN'T READ" :) |
| 14:20.44 | darnir | I think I'll leave a message and see how it goes. I wouldn't want a good but uncommunicative student either. They're not bound to be long term contributors. |
| 14:20.53 | |Kev| | For that reason, yes. |
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| 14:24.02 | |Kev| | I'm actually surprised how few applications we're seeing this year. |
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| 14:24.45 | |Kev| | There's good stuff there, but less than I'd expect. |
| 14:25.10 | dumindux | |Kev| from which org are you? :) |
| 14:25.30 | |Kev| | XMPP, which I suspect is part of the problem. |
| 14:25.51 | |Kev| | Considering rebranding ourselves "An XMPP Org" or something, to see if the sorting helps in the future ;) |
| 14:26.08 | darnir | Even in GNU we're seeing way lesser applications than in the previous years. |
| 14:26.36 | Keeter | I'm tempted to submit something, but I'm not sure I'm qualified enough. :p |
| 14:26.37 | darnir | But, the quality seems to be a lot higher. I take that is a good sign. |
| 14:26.54 | darnir | Keeter: If you can code at all, you're qualified. |
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| 14:27.13 | |Kev| | !eligible | Keeter |
| 14:27.13 | gsocbot | Keeter: "eligible" is http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2015/help_page#1._Are_there_any_age_restrictions_on |
| 14:27.15 | perepujal | !amigoodenogh |
| 14:27.18 | |Kev| | There's stuff under there. |
| 14:27.23 | |Kev| | !goodenough |
| 14:27.23 | gsocbot | |Kev|: "goodenough" is Am I good enough to be a student for GSoC? http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ch003_am-i-good-enough/ |
| 14:27.24 | |Kev| | I think :) |
| 14:27.38 | darnir | ^^ Precisely ^^ |
| 14:27.43 | perepujal | :) |
| 14:28.12 | gevaerts | Except of course that flossmanuals still seems to be down :) |
| 14:28.12 | darnir | I keep forgetting the factoids. We need someone to list them out and publish it. |
| 14:28.31 | |Kev| | Wouldn't that then be the students guide? :) |
| 14:28.59 | darnir | You can still access it on the wayback machine |
| 14:29.09 | Keeter | Well what I mean is, I'm definitely gonna get started on some open source projects and make some contacts. For a stipend and full-time job, not sure yet. :p |
| 14:29.21 | |Kev| | darnir: Oh. The students guide has gone? :o |
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| 14:29.37 | snizzo | |Kev|: I'd like to join gsoc as a student this year, I'm doing a proposal with KDE but I find your projects interesting so don't lose faith, maybe more students will do a proposal next days :) |
| 14:30.00 | darnir | |Kev|: Flossmanuals is down it seems. So no way to access the student guide |
| 14:30.02 | |Kev| | snizzo: Thanks. And FWIW, the KDE folks are great at this GSoC lark. |
| 14:32.52 | Keeter | Readable on the WM, yup. Thanks for the link. |
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| 14:35.22 | gevaerts | is happy |
| 14:35.40 | Keeter | I think I would just feel more uh, comfortable spending a year or two getting involved with an org on my own time and "preparing," haha. |
| 14:35.48 | gevaerts | My crème brûlée is finally beginning to set :) |
| 14:36.40 | Keeter | Btw I was just wondering, what's the general age range of applicants for GSoC? More grad students than undergrad, evenly mixed, etc. |
| 14:40.33 | Keeter | Or is that not public information? :s |
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| 14:47.52 | darnir | Keeter: OSPO publishes some stats every year. Yopu should check out their blog |
| 14:48.27 | gevaerts | I don't think I've seen age statistics |
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| 14:48.55 | gevaerts | Not sure why, general mean / distribution of that shouldn't be privacy-sensitive I'd say |
| 14:49.04 | darnir | I think they mentioned the max age once. |
| 14:50.27 | gevaerts | I wouldn't expect grad/undergrad statistics. That needs mapping data from hundreds of different systems, assuming that the information is even known in a structured way |
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| 14:50.37 | perepujal | I remember some years ago max age was 50+ |
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| 14:51.56 | Keeter | I was mainly just wondering how many applicants are in the undergraduate freshman/sophomore group, really. |
| 14:52.15 | |Kev| | That doesn't map cleanly. |
| 14:52.19 | |Kev| | There are other countries :) |
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| 14:54.24 | Keeter | Hm. I'm guessing the youngest an applicant can be is when they've been accepted to a college/uni the spring prior to their first year? |
| 14:55.07 | gevaerts | Not necessarily. You *can* start university before you're 18 in some places and circumstances |
| 14:55.40 | Keeter | Well, yes. I was gonna say 17/18 or before, but I think youngest req age is 18 for GSoC. |
| 14:56.00 | gevaerts | Yes, but you can be working on your PhD by then! |
| 14:56.17 | Keeter | Mm, guess so lol |
| 14:56.18 | gevaerts | Well, *some* people can :) |
| 14:56.35 | Keeter | A couple of uh...outliers? :p |
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| 14:57.13 | Kephael | nah, if you start at 15 and you are in a country with only 3 year bachelor's degrees it's not that hard Keeter |
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| 14:59.22 | gevaerts | Kephael: s/not that hard/possible/ :) |
| 14:59.30 | Keeter | I guess it is possible. Maybe not the majority. But maybe the majority of 18 yr olds who participate in GSoC? Who knows. |
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| 15:00.33 | gevaerts | waits for the first person to complain because he's no longer a student due to have finished his PhD last year and he can't participate because he's not 18 yet |
| 15:00.39 | Keeter | Anyway, I was just wondering about the targeted age range mainly. But I guess it doesn't really matter so much, as long as you're qualified. And the age is just an extra stat. |
| 15:01.02 | Keeter | gevaerts: That's just...lol. |
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| 15:06.46 | werw | 2nd year undergrads |
| 15:06.53 | werw | mostly |
| 15:07.03 | werw | as far as India in concerned |
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| 15:08.13 | Keeter | Do many apply? |
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| 15:08.50 | werw | Yes, if by many you mean many by number, as our population is huge |
| 15:08.52 | prasad_ | hi |
| 15:08.58 | Keeter | I'm in the U.S. and a 2nd year UG right now, it's not really very advertised at my uni. |
| 15:09.26 | teepee | there's stats by country on the blog :) |
| 15:09.57 | Keeter | teepee: Which blog exactly? Where can I find it? |
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| 15:10.26 | teepee | Keeter: overview with blog links... https://developers.google.com/open-source/soc/resources/stats |
| 15:10.48 | werw | http://google-opensource.blogspot.in/ ? |
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| 15:11.26 | teepee | yup |
| 15:11.38 | werw | There you see, 401/1307 indians :P |
| 15:11.45 | werw | i wasnt expecting that tho |
| 15:11.56 | Keeter | teepee: Excellent! Thank you. |
| 15:12.02 | prasad_ | I'm in India and my skills writing a code,shell script,Ansible experince then how to choose the project |
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| 15:12.17 | Keeter | Yup, in the 2014 data looks like India is first place in terms of numbers. US is second though. |
| 15:12.29 | teepee | prasad_: look though the project list and see if something matches / sounds interesting? |
| 15:13.23 | werw | What do they mean by the success rate? |
| 15:13.28 | prasad_ | teepee:where is project list?, i see only the orgnizations name here |
| 15:13.46 | werw | Prasad,every org. has their projects |
| 15:13.53 | teepee | prasad_: if you go to the detail page for the org, there's a link to the project ideas page for that org |
| 15:14.10 | dumindux | and most students by a university is from University of Moratuwa, Sri Lanka ;) |
| 15:14.27 | darnir | dumindux: Nope. It's III-H, India since 2014 |
| 15:14.39 | prasad_ | ok teepee thanks for information. |
| 15:14.46 | darnir | Used to be U. of Moratuwa before that. |
| 15:14.57 | teepee | werw: well, success as in successfully passed the final evaluation I guess |
| 15:15.21 | dumindux | considering all years still University of Moratuwa right? |
| 15:15.36 | darnir | Yes. |
| 15:15.42 | dumindux | hm |
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| 15:16.14 | werw | @keeter, you can see that in 2014 max no of people were selected with birthyear 93' i.e 21 |
| 15:17.43 | werw | And ~68% undergards |
| 15:18.45 | Keeter | werw: Ah that's some helpful info, thanks. |
| 15:19.54 | Keeter | I'm planning on the summer before starting grad school. Unless someone might take me this summer. |
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| 15:24.27 | prasad_ | another query the project idea is given by us or the organization will give us ... |
| 15:25.09 | Valodim | either is possible, usually the org provides ideas to choose from |
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| 15:26.28 | darnir | prasad_: Each org has their list of project ideas. But you're free to propose your own too. |
| 15:27.44 | prasad_ | k darnir thanks |
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| 15:29.34 | gevaerts | prasad_: note that you don't just pick an idea and be done with it. You actually have to think about it and provide a proposal on how you plan to approach the thing |
| 15:29.53 | kishoredbn | Hi I'm Kishore from FL. I want to what gsoc team is expecting in Enrollment form in the registration page? |
| 15:30.02 | kishoredbn | *know |
| 15:30.22 | gevaerts | kishoredbn: did you read http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2015/proofofenrollment ? |
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| 15:31.15 | Keeter | ^ Yup, it's all in the link. |
| 15:31.40 | Keeter | If you're unsure, they say to send something in anyway. They'll tell you if it doesn't work for them. |
| 15:32.16 | kishoredbn | Okay! got it! Thanks :) |
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| 15:44.07 | prasad_ | ya that is very important we have to think :gevaerts |
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| 16:02.09 | chuongv | !next |
| 16:02.10 | gsocbot | chuongv: "next" is GSoC student applications close on 27 March at 19:00 UTC |
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| 16:27.48 | ginger | Hi, how advisable is it for a newbee to enroll into gsoc, 6 days before submissions close? |
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| 16:28.25 | darnir | ginger: To be honest. You're a bit late. But I would still advise you try. |
| 16:28.41 | darnir | There's no harm. And if not, you can always start preparing for next year :) |
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| 16:33.00 | ginger | Any advice? |
| 16:33.24 | darnir | Talk to orgs, and the mentors. They can give you the best advice. |
| 16:33.37 | ginger | alright. Thanks :) |
| 16:34.13 | teepee | yep, if you have the remaining days to work on a nice proposal, there's still a good chance |
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| 16:35.17 | teepee | ginger: did you read though the student manual already? it has lots of information about gsoc in general and how it works |
| 16:35.36 | snizzo | ginger: agree on what others said, if you talk to people in the organization of your choice, explain your ideas clearly and dedicate the remaining days into writing a good proposal you can do it |
| 16:36.30 | snizzo | if in the spare time remaining you can send a bugfix that could be sort of "game changing" |
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| 16:42.41 | kzisme | IF i can't contact an org im interested in via any of their listed contact info - what should I do? |
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| 16:43.57 | teepee | kzisme: depends on how long you've waited I guess :) |
| 16:44.07 | kzisme | 24+ hours o.O |
| 16:44.13 | teepee | there's always the option to look somewhere else |
| 16:44.24 | kzisme | Do you have any suggestions for pythonish things? :D |
| 16:44.57 | teepee | nope, not really, but you'll probably find quite a big number when filtering the org list by "python" |
| 16:45.03 | kzisme | The ops in the channel just aren't talking |
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| 16:45.26 | kzisme | (well just not replying to me specifically) |
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| 16:45.31 | teepee | kzisme: well, timezones and weekend could make things a bit slower |
| 16:45.58 | kzisme | teepee: Yeah I suppose - I pinged them though and it's been 24 hours of idling xD |
| 16:46.16 | PulkoMandy | if it's only not replying to you, maybe you didn't ask things in the right way |
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| 16:46.52 | kzisme | PulkoMandy: I said "I'm just looking fora response to my mailing list post - and gathering information to write a GSOC proposal" |
| 16:47.19 | PulkoMandy | that isn't a question, so you get no answer |
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| 16:47.28 | teepee | kzisme: in general it's more promising to ask very specific questions |
| 16:47.39 | ginger | A basic doubt. Should one choose the project and then contact the mentor, or can we ask the mentor which is the most feasible topic given our skill-sets. |
| 16:47.43 | PulkoMandy | see http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html for how to ask more efficient questions, for example |
| 16:47.43 | teepee | people tend to ignore very general and open ended questions as it's lots of effort to answer |
| 16:47.56 | kzisme | teepee: Even if I'm directing then to my email/group posting as well |
| 16:48.33 | teepee | kzisme: sure, it's normally a mailing list for the whole project, so likely only a very tiny number of people there will be involved in gsoc |
| 16:49.09 | teepee | ginger: the mentor can't easily choose a project for you, he/she do not know you yet |
| 16:49.17 | PulkoMandy | also maybe your mail had similar problems? (I dont know, I didn't see it) |
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| 16:57.23 | kzisme | anyone have suggestions on an organization to look into? |
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| 17:01.30 | sagar_hani | !next |
| 17:01.31 | gsocbot | sagar_hani: "next" is GSoC student applications close on 27 March at 19:00 UTC |
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| 17:04.06 | suchakra | Q: Can I unregister as student and re-register as mentor now? |
| 17:04.57 | teepee | suchakra: not sure it's possible, you probably need help from someone in #melange |
| 17:05.30 | suchakra | ok thanks, teepee |
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| 17:21.38 | Seun | Do organization's actually care about how many proposals I send out? I wan't to complete 2 high quality ones because I don't like the idea of putting all my eggs in one basket. |
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| 17:24.18 | teepee | Seun: that's hard to tell as it depends on the org. I would not mind, as in the end the quality is the factor for the selection |
| 17:24.47 | teepee | Seun: you could just ask the org how the feel about that :) |
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| 17:30.15 | Guest17696 | hey guy |
| 17:30.23 | Guest17696 | anyone here |
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| 17:30.58 | teepee | sure |
| 17:31.25 | Guest17696 | i'm so late to present the CV and proposal |
| 17:31.59 | Guest17696 | do you think that i can finish it in 5 days |
| 17:32.18 | teepee | if you use the time wisely, that should be plenty of time |
| 17:33.18 | Guest17696 | i don't know how can i do the proposal |
| 17:33.33 | teepee | hmm, that's a problem then |
| 17:33.53 | teepee | do you have any specific question? |
| 17:34.21 | Guest17696 | i think that proposal want to know an idea |
| 17:34.28 | Guest17696 | for the project |
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| 17:35.14 | teepee | yep |
| 17:35.42 | Guest17696 | and the problem of the project how can i fit him |
| 17:35.57 | teepee | you'll propose a project based on one of the ideas list from the org or come up with your own (most orgs allow that, I think) |
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| 17:36.20 | Guest17696 | but i don't know how can i do that |
| 17:36.40 | teepee | which part specifically? |
| 17:37.08 | Guest17696 | the idea |
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| 17:37.58 | teepee | how to find the idea? go to the main gsoc 2015 page, browse though the list of orgs, pick something interesting, follow the link to the idea page |
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| 17:39.09 | teepee | hmpf, http://en.flossmanuals.net/ seems to be down? |
| 17:39.28 | Guest17696 | ok i''l do it |
| 17:40.01 | teepee | I'd point to the student guide in addition, but unfortunately that seems to be down currently :( |
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| 17:40.43 | teepee | !studentguide | Guest17696 |
| 17:40.43 | gsocbot | Guest17696: "studentguide" is http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ |
| 17:41.20 | teepee | Guest17696: save the link for later, hopefully it's coming back soon |
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| 17:42.42 | Guest17696 | i want to enter in this program for experience for the first once |
| 17:43.16 | Guest17696 | do you know any other way to have experience ?@teepee |
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| 17:44.02 | teepee | sure, there's always only one way to get experience, try it and learn |
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| 17:45.04 | Guest17696 | to you know any other program like google summer of code ? |
| 17:45.32 | teepee | I know "semester of code" which is similar, but there are likely others |
| 17:45.55 | teepee | right now is the perfect time for gsoc though, so why not focus on that |
| 17:45.56 | Guest17696 | do you have the link ? |
| 17:46.33 | teepee | even if you end up not being selected, you'll see how writing a proposal works. that will be useful for lots of different cases later |
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| 17:47.24 | ujjwal | yeah I agree It's a valuable experience |
| 17:47.35 | Guest17696 | ok i'll make a proposal |
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| 17:52.05 | Guest17696 | thank you teepee for your time |
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| 18:00.27 | lokeshw24 | Hi, I've doubt regarding the student profile form that is to be filled on the melange site. |
| 18:00.36 | lokeshw24 | Can we edit the information filled later? |
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| 18:02.05 | |Kev| | lokeshw24: You can edit until the deadline. |
| 18:02.21 | |Kev| | Assuming you're talking about the proposal submissions. |
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| 18:03.13 | lokeshw24 | @Kev : No, not proposal submission, I'm talking about the profile information. Name, address, t-shirt size etc |
| 18:03.35 | |Kev| | Ah. Then I'm not sure of the answer, sorry. |
| 18:03.39 | Guest17696 | what's the deadline to present the proposal ? |
| 18:03.48 | |Kev| | !next | Guest17696 |
| 18:03.49 | gsocbot | Guest17696: "next" is GSoC student applications close on 27 March at 19:00 UTC |
| 18:03.53 | sedas | 27th march |
| 18:04.00 | |Kev| | Guest17696: But you really should be able to find that out yourself. |
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| 18:04.51 | kzisme | Wait...how many orgs can you apply to ? |
| 18:05.03 | sedas | Any number |
| 18:05.08 | ankuromar | 5 |
| 18:05.17 | sedas | though it is good if u concentrate on one |
| 18:05.35 | kzisme | sedas: I'm still trying to find one that will reply at least before I focus on a single one |
| 18:05.52 | ankuromar | what if the irc channel on an organisation isn active? |
| 18:06.01 | kzisme | ^^^ |
| 18:06.04 | ankuromar | or isnt responding to a particular project? |
| 18:06.16 | kzisme | I'm having the same problem ankuromar |
| 18:06.29 | kzisme | I like the projecst and the org but over a day and no replies |
| 18:06.35 | ankuromar | is it advisable to post a proposal for tha project? |
| 18:06.43 | |Kev| | ankuromar: Consider if your definition of 'active' is reasonable, and if so and it's not active, check that's the main way they want you to communicate. |
| 18:07.03 | |Kev| | kzisme: Is that over a day at the weekend? Lots of people like to take weekends off... |
| 18:07.09 | teepee | considering timezones and weekend, trying on monday might be an option |
| 18:07.15 | ankuromar | i mailed the mentors separately too |
| 18:07.27 | ankuromar | but no replies isnce 40-5 days |
| 18:07.27 | kzisme | Yesterday at 10am-now 2pm |
| 18:07.31 | ankuromar | 4-5 |
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| 18:08.28 | kzisme | |Kev|: IS it worth starting a proposal though if they aren't replying |
| 18:08.33 | |Kev| | 4-5 days seems excessive to not reply. |
| 18:08.46 | |Kev| | One day over the weekend seems quite reasonable to not reply. |
| 18:09.06 | sedas | kzisme if u have contributed to the org/proj before you may |
| 18:09.24 | |Kev| | kzisme: I wouldn't apply to a project where I haven't had discussions with the org, personally. |
| 18:09.28 | kzisme | |Kev|: Eh, they did talk a bit in IRC but not much - might be busy but I just want to get somethng in |
| 18:09.31 | |Kev| | But I can't decide for you :) |
| 18:09.39 | kzisme | Yeah it feels like a waste and that's what I'm trying to do |
| 18:09.53 | ankuromar | yeah |
| 18:09.56 | kzisme | sedas: I haven't in the past Iwas just trying to discuss projects and proposals with them |
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| 18:10.51 | kzisme | |Kev|: Any suggestions on orgs to look into? |
| 18:10.56 | kzisme | sedas: |
| 18:11.01 | kzisme | I have this whole week to work on it |
| 18:11.10 | |Kev| | kzisme: Whatever excites you. |
| 18:11.20 | kzisme | My choices are more language specific honestly |
| 18:11.28 | kzisme | Qtile seemd cool because I love WM's and DE's |
| 18:12.02 | lokeshw24 | @Kev : Yes, we can edit the profile information :) |
| 18:12.03 | |Kev| | There are other DE orgs involved in GSoC. |
| 18:12.08 | |Kev| | lokeshw24: Glad to hear it. |
| 18:12.20 | kzisme | |Kev|: As orgs or sub orgs? |
| 18:12.27 | ankuromar | what are the possibilities of the project being selected, given that i have already worked substantially in that particular field, but haven't got any reply yet from the organisation? |
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| 18:12.34 | |Kev| | kzisme: Well, there's KDE for example, isn't there? |
| 18:12.37 | kzisme | I know KDE and Debian are there but I doubt I would get into a bigger org |
| 18:12.42 | |Kev| | !odds | ankuromar |
| 18:12.42 | gsocbot | ankuromar: "odds" is Odds, chances or probability really do not come into play for GSoC. Rambling off numbers or asking What are the odds of getting accepted... is really quite useless as one's acceptance is not dictated by luck or numbers, but by the quality of your proposal and your skills instead. |
| 18:13.07 | |Kev| | kzisme: You certainly won't if you don't apply. |
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| 18:13.16 | ankuromar | but there hasnt been a chain of communication between us |
| 18:13.33 | |Kev| | Personally, I wouldn't want to apply to an org I hadn't spoken to. |
| 18:13.37 | kzisme | As for proposals is it beneficial to be more original or just work off of one of their ideas |
| 18:13.45 | kzisme | Same here |
| 18:14.34 | ankuromar | how will they judge my skills if they wont respond.. :( |
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| 18:20.08 | kzisme | I'm wondering the same |
| 18:20.18 | kzisme | |Kev|: Are you a student or a mentor errrrr |
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| 18:20.27 | |Kev| | kzisme: Mentor/org admin. |
| 18:20.39 | kzisme | Which org are you working with? |
| 18:20.47 | |Kev| | XMPP Standards Foundation. |
| 18:22.04 | kzisme | Ah, I looked at that yesterday - seems over my head o.O |
| 18:22.09 | kzisme | I just want to learn a lot and contribute |
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| 18:23.59 | |Kev| | This channel isn't for scrounging for students or selling your orgs, but I don't see why it should be over the head of any student capable of being in GSoC, it's just code. |
| 18:24.48 | ankuromar | i am just wondering that, isn't it so that the organisation itself is disinterested in that particular project hence not responding to it.... |
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| 18:26.16 | iptop | How long does it generally take for orgs to respond after you submit your proposal ? |
| 18:26.37 | iptop | I am in India, org is in Sri Lanka. So, same timezone |
| 18:26.39 | |Kev| | iptop: Have you been talking to the org outside Melange? |
| 18:26.50 | iptop | Yeah. Of course |
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| 18:27.17 | |Kev| | Then you could ask them :) |
| 18:27.20 | teepee | iptop: they might not respond automatically until the deadline. you could ask though |
| 18:27.25 | |Kev| | But I wouldn't expect responses until after the deadline, personally. |
| 18:27.59 | iptop | I have been trying to talk to them(They were initially responding to their own university students). Then now It's been around 4 days since I submitted my proposal. No replies yet |
| 18:28.10 | iptop | What about feedback ? |
| 18:28.28 | iptop | What if something can be improved in my proposal ? |
| 18:28.41 | iptop | with their feedback/suggestions ? |
| 18:29.41 | iptop | teepee : I mailed them personally also. Nothing yet |
| 18:30.52 | teepee | iptop: I can only say I'd try to respond (mails can get lost in spam folders) but they could also just expect the students come up with a proposal on their own |
| 18:31.26 | iptop | Oh. Feedback is not compulsory then. I thought they must respond when you submit a proposal! |
| 18:31.47 | |Kev| | They're not obliged to respond, no. |
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| 18:32.11 | iptop | Okay. Then. Thanks for your time. :( |
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| 18:50.08 | shiv | is there anyone mentor? please reply |
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| 18:51.21 | dfighter | shiv, just contact them directly on their mailing list or IRC |
| 18:51.34 | dfighter | shiv, this is NOT the place to discuss your proposal with them |
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| 19:09.43 | Corey84 | what project shivam ? |
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| 19:15.39 | kzisme | This is a frustrating process o.O |
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| 19:37.41 | |Kev| | What's frustrating? |
| 19:37.44 | dfighter | kzisme, what do you mean? |
| 19:38.04 | dfighter | :D |
| 19:38.14 | kzisme | Just finding an org that will communicate as well as creating a proposal that is acceptable |
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| 19:40.10 | dfighter | neither of those is frustrating or hard |
| 19:40.16 | kzisme | How so ? |
| 19:40.18 | dfighter | however acceptable is not enough |
| 19:40.29 | dfighter | you have to be outstanding! |
| 19:40.34 | dfighter | that's somewhat harder |
| 19:40.48 | kzisme | Well I suppose just keeping it not boring and such |
| 19:40.59 | dfighter | not boring? |
| 19:41.03 | dfighter | you aren't writing a novel |
| 19:41.05 | kzisme | (the proposal) |
| 19:41.09 | dfighter | you are writing a technical specification |
| 19:41.16 | dfighter | by definition it is "boring" |
| 19:41.25 | kzisme | I find this stuff interesting lol |
| 19:41.43 | dfighter | we all do |
| 19:42.17 | dfighter | that why I said "boring" and not boring :) |
| 19:42.31 | kzisme | :P |
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| 19:43.44 | kzisme | dfighter: Any suggestions on orgs and such? |
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| 19:44.13 | dfighter | kzisme take a look at the accepted orgs, and pick one that offers an idea that you are interested in |
| 19:44.27 | dfighter | make contact with them, write a great proposal |
| 19:44.38 | dfighter | altough I'd say if you are only just looking for orgs now you are a bit late |
| 19:44.39 | kzisme | I should make sure to speak to them before writing on then right? |
| 19:44.47 | dfighter | since you need to do research |
| 19:44.51 | dfighter | which takes time |
| 19:45.02 | kzisme | I assumed Openhatch would be participating this year but they aren;t |
| 19:45.10 | kzisme | I basically am using this whole week to do this |
| 19:45.35 | dfighter | I started when they were announced, picked 3 orgs |
| 19:45.41 | dfighter | by now ruled out 2 of them |
| 19:45.49 | dfighter | writing the proposal for the 1 remaining now |
| 19:45.52 | kzisme | via research? |
| 19:45.56 | dfighter | yes |
| 19:46.00 | dfighter | looked at their code |
| 19:46.05 | dfighter | infrastructure |
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| 19:46.06 | dfighter | etc |
| 19:46.23 | dfighter | I kept the one that is most suitable for me |
| 19:46.30 | kzisme | Is this your first year participating? |
| 19:46.54 | dfighter | one of them was so huge that I couldn't progress well because it took forever to build, after a change |
| 19:47.10 | dfighter | no kzisme not my first year |
| 19:47.22 | kzisme | Who were you with last year? |
| 19:47.35 | dfighter | Ryzom Core under the Worldforge umbrella |
| 19:47.44 | dfighter | sadly they weren't picked this year |
| 19:47.59 | kzisme | What are your interests then? |
| 19:48.41 | dfighter | I have lots, but the main point is that I am most familiar with the C++ programming language |
| 19:49.01 | dfighter | so I looked for C++ projects |
| 19:49.11 | dfighter | browsed through them and picked ideas that interest me |
| 19:51.00 | kzisme | Same here - but I dislike the language heh so i'm looking for python or java primarily |
| 19:51.38 | dfighter | oh yea forgot to tell you, that contacting them *early* is very important since they might give you tasks |
| 19:51.49 | kzisme | define early? :P |
| 19:51.57 | dfighter | earliest possible time |
| 19:52.26 | dfighter | you need to do research not only for the proposal, but also for the tasks |
| 19:52.35 | dfighter | just to convince them you are capable of doing what you promise |
| 19:53.00 | dfighter | which makes sense, think about your proposal like something you'd do on a tech interview |
| 19:53.02 | kzisme | previously - did you speak with your mentors frequently during the week? |
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| 19:53.18 | dfighter | I corresponded with them yes |
| 19:53.22 | dfighter | that's how I got the tasks |
| 19:53.39 | kzisme | lots of communication? |
| 19:53.59 | dfighter | yes, that's important |
| 19:54.15 | dfighter | before you submit, and after too |
| 19:54.29 | dfighter | you should also discuss your proposal with them |
| 19:54.45 | dfighter | they might also requests more details AFTER the submission deadline |
| 19:54.52 | dfighter | so you can't just disappear |
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| 20:03.03 | Seun | How many students is an organization allowed to choose? |
| 20:03.23 | dfighter | that's not known yet |
| 20:03.29 | dfighter | Google decides that later |
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| 20:06.39 | dfighter | Seun, also you shouldn't worry about numbers |
| 20:06.45 | dfighter | just make a great proposal |
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| 20:39.59 | chick | Hi IS IT GOOGLE THAT SELECTS THE STUDENTS OR THE ORGANISATION ADMINS? |
| 20:41.06 | teepee | the orgs do |
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| 20:44.02 | dfighter | chick, also please stop yelling |
| 20:45.05 | chick | hi dfighter Sorry i was't yelling y got me wrong |
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| 20:45.57 | chick | thanks teepee |
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| 21:37.45 | Seun | I don't think I have enough time left to submit my own idea, so I plan to draft a preliminary proposal based on the idea page. |
| 21:38.18 | Seun | Is this a good idea? |
| 21:39.22 | dfighter | pretty sure most people do that |
| 21:39.47 | dfighter | also orgs put ideas that they want implemented on their ideas page |
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| 21:52.55 | Seun | Luckily, I'm on spring break but because of the circumstances, I might not have time to wait for things like email correspondence. How exactly am do I introduce myself in IRC for instance. |
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| 21:54.04 | Valodim | that's up to you |
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| 21:59.38 | gehad | why melange is so stupid :/ |
| 22:00.01 | gehad | anyone have recommendations how to format the proposal well on melange ? |
| 22:00.31 | dfighter | write it as plain text, then format it in the end |
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| 22:06.26 | hupei1991 | hey guys. is there any good ideas or programs list to choose from? |
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| 22:11.01 | gevaerts | hupei1991: you mean other than the organisations list on melange? |
| 22:11.16 | gevaerts | !studentguide |
| 22:11.16 | gsocbot | gevaerts: "studentguide" is http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ |
| 22:11.37 | gevaerts | !learn studentguide as http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ or if that site is down https://web.archive.org/web/20150314235727/http://flossmanuals.net/gsocstudentguide/ |
| 22:11.38 | gsocbot | gevaerts: "studentguide" is (#1) http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/, or (#2) http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ or if that site is down https://web.archive.org/web/20150314235727/http://flossmanuals.net/gsocstudentguide/ |
| 22:11.44 | gevaerts | !forget studentguide 1 |
| 22:11.44 | gsocbot | gevaerts: "studentguide" is http://en.flossmanuals.net/GSoCStudentGuide/ or if that site is down https://web.archive.org/web/20150314235727/http://flossmanuals.net/gsocstudentguide/ |
| 22:11.46 | hupei1991 | yeah.. probably |
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| 22:12.48 | gevaerts | Well, no. Organisation and project choice is a very personal thing... |
| 22:13.17 | hupei1991 | Since there r tooo many organisations to pick, so as the projects... |
| 22:13.53 | gevaerts | You're basically asking if someone else can decide what you'd prefer |
| 22:14.04 | hupei1991 | i was wondering if there is a filter to pick according to ur skills or something like that |
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| 22:14.36 | hupei1991 | just like i prefer C++ as a major programming language |
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| 22:14.56 | hupei1991 | so i can filter those orgranizations by choosing C++ |
| 22:15.19 | teepee | yes, you can do that, just try |
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| 22:16.26 | formap | thereâs a search bar on top of the organizations list you can use to filter by project tags |
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| 22:20.07 | hupei1991 | cool. think i reached on that pageâ¦. working on it.. ty |
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| 23:26.11 | Corey84 | oddly quiet here tonight |
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| 23:33.59 | dfighter | Corey84, most of the times actually |
| 23:34.03 | dfighter | and it's not odd |
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| 23:34.08 | dfighter | it means people are working on their stuff |
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| 23:34.57 | Corey84 | given the pending close of apps i'd figure it would be as busy as the am (USA time ) have been |
| 23:36.06 | dfighter | that's almost 5 days ahead |
| 23:36.15 | dfighter | it will be busy around the end of the window |
| 23:36.16 | gevaerts | It just means that suddenly everyone understands the documentation :) |
| 23:36.18 | DaSpirit | Can students view the proposals of other students? |
| 23:36.21 | dfighter | lots of people asking for extensions :D |
| 23:36.34 | dfighter | DaSpirit, yes and no |
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| 23:36.41 | dfighter | if it's public and you have the link yes |
| 23:36.43 | dfighter | otherwise no |
| 23:36.50 | DaSpirit | Thanks. |
| 23:36.54 | dfighter | it would be quite unfair to just allow you to view them |
| 23:36.55 | MatthewWilkes | dfighter: It might be 5 days but lots of people have been saying that it's too late to start. I can't for the life of me work out why, as it really isn't, but people seem to be obsessed with the deadline this year. |
| 23:37.18 | dfighter | MatthewWilkes, because you need to do research which takes time |
| 23:37.30 | dfighter | granted that time depends on the size of the project |
| 23:37.47 | olly | 5 days should be enough |
| 23:38.00 | MatthewWilkes | more than enough |
| 23:38.10 | dfighter | if you have nothing else to do sure |
| 23:38.14 | olly | you might not write the best proposal the org will see, but it'll be decent enough |
| 23:38.20 | dfighter | plus if you know what you want to propose |
| 23:38.26 | Corey84 | you can see the "public" parts only iirc |
| 23:38.26 | dfighter | if you need to find an org |
| 23:38.43 | dfighter | that also takes time |
| 23:38.50 | olly | what I really don't get is people spending a lot of the time they have left asking on here if they have enough time |
| 23:38.58 | dfighter | lol |
| 23:39.14 | dfighter | anxiety probably |
| 23:39.20 | MatthewWilkes | Yeah, it all takes time. I'd estimate that if you're not procrastinating you can probably go from zero to a winning proposal in about a day |
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| 23:39.41 | dfighter | MatthewWilkes, I'd like to see you doing that |
| 23:39.46 | olly | actually, I'm lying - I totally understand procrastination |
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| 23:40.19 | olly | it just looks more ridiculous in others |
| 23:40.42 | gevaerts | won't procrastinate today |
| 23:40.46 | gevaerts | I'll do it tomorrow |
| 23:40.58 | dfighter | :) |
| 23:41.07 | olly | and you don't have to view all 100 and whatever orgs, just find one that you'll enjoy working with |
| 23:41.22 | rajan | I had a question; Should I ask for feedback on my proposal draft on the mailing list or should I PM the proposed mentors and other important people in the community? |
| 23:41.24 | dfighter | we have a poem about procastrination here in Hungary |
| 23:41.30 | dfighter | title is "Pató Pá Ãr" |
| 23:41.32 | dfighter | eh |
| 23:41.36 | dfighter | "Pató Pál Ãr" |
| 23:41.46 | olly | it depends on the org, but generally the culture is that you should communicate in public not private |
| 23:41.51 | MatthewWilkes | rajan: It will depend on your org, but in general if you're happy for the public to see it the mailing list is better |
| 23:41.57 | dfighter | basically it's about a guy who keeps saying "We can do it later" :D |
| 23:42.26 | olly | anyway, I should get on with what I'm meant to be doing |
| 23:43.02 | rajan | okay,thanks |
| 23:43.05 | MatthewWilkes | dfighter: I'd happily take up that challenge, if not for the fact it'd piss off a lot of people, especially the people that work hard on keeping this programme running smoothly. |
| 23:43.55 | dfighter | MatthewWilkes, you don't need to actually submit it |
| 23:44.21 | dfighter | I just really would like to see what you come up with within a day |
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| 23:44.41 | dfighter | ofc if it would take away time from a program related commitment, then don't do it! |
| 23:45.00 | MatthewWilkes | Any particular org? |
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| 23:45.38 | dfighter | MatthewWilkes, it wouldn't be fair if I told you which org to choose |
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| 23:45.53 | dfighter | just one you are not familiar with |
| 23:45.55 | MatthewWilkes | dfighter: Wouldn't be fair if I got a free choice, either |
| 23:45.56 | MatthewWilkes | okay |
| 23:47.08 | MatthewWilkes | I would say RockBox and get gevaerts to adjudicate, but they're not participating this year |
| 23:47.24 | gevaerts | Bad luck! |
| 23:47.45 | gevaerts | I'd also have volunteered to answer all of your questions in less than 72 hours :) |
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| 23:57.51 | Faker | I want to participate in gsoc but my english is not that good , still i have a chance to be chosen ? |
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| 23:59.21 | DaSpirit | Speak to your organization - there might be a mentor available that speaks your language. |