IRC log for #gsoc on 20140326

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09:38.18d3r1ckhello
09:38.57darnirHello
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09:40.51d3r1ckdarnir: how is it moving over there?
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09:41.49darnirOur students have disappeared since the applicatins closed :)
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09:42.47PulkoMandysame here (well, most of them)
09:43.03PulkoMandynot a good sign if we want them to stay after GSoC, I'd say...
09:43.13darnirPrecisely my point.
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09:43.43darnirAlso, what's even more interesting is that our mailing lists are currently more active than during the rest of the year
09:44.31darnirMost of the contributors are refactoring, cleaning up code and doing other janitorial tasks that these students could easily pick up.
09:44.39fewchakai: When I click on Important Documents on my dashboard, I get a list, with one item (Proof of Enrollment) present in it. When I click on it, it does not show the document which I uploaded for that, but instead gives a descrption of what it means. Do I need to worry?
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09:45.06darnirWould allow them to learn and understand the codebase and also interact with the rest of the community
09:45.51d3r1ckdarnir: are you a mentor or what?
09:46.53darnirfewcha: If you've submitted the proposal, don't worry. if there's anything amiss, they'll contact you for more information
09:46.55darnird3r1ck: Yes
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09:47.32fewchadarnir: yes I have submitted my proposal. Okay, then let me hope that everything is alright :)
09:47.46d3r1ckdarnir: wow, so what is your organisation name and what happened to your students that they all went away?
09:48.15PulkoMandythey're probably still busy with school
09:48.23PulkoMandyand will come back if they are accepted
09:48.28darnirMaybe the snowman abducted them. Who knows? :)
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10:34.00darnir!logs
10:34.00gsocbotdarnir: "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/
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12:45.22TahirCan someone here explain what is MIH(may it happen)?
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12:47.23NiharikaTahir: Feel free to mention where you are referring from.
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12:48.33TahirNiharika check this one http://issues.civicrm.org/jira/browse/CRM-13956
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12:50.09NiharikaTahir: No idea. Ask on the relevant channel?
12:51.49PulkoMandysearching "MIH" in the search box leads to http://issues.civicrm.org/jira/issues/?jql=text%20%7E%20%22MIH%22
12:51.55PulkoMandy"make it happen" campaigns
12:52.16PulkoMandyand then to https://civicrm.org/make-it-happen
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12:57.37kblinfunny, and here I thought submitting patches was the best way to get features I wanted into an open source project
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15:06.27carolsserves some tea and coffee
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15:17.05MerlinYangwc
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15:18.15carolswc?
15:18.19carolswhat’s that mean?
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15:18.48gevaertsCould mean the unix wc (word count) command, but that's not likely in this context
15:19.06carolshuh.
15:19.13carolsi guess we’ll never know.
15:19.47gevaertsLet's have coffee instead
15:20.04carolsindeed
15:20.50kremlin-window close
15:20.50kremlin-irssi
15:21.00kremlin-someone forgot to type the slash :)
15:21.17gevaertsOh, right!
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15:21.32gevaertsThe coffee is still a better idea though :)
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15:28.34TahirHow to check other student's proposals for learning?
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15:29.11carolsTahir: if they’re public, you’re welcome to ask them for the URLs
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15:29.57Tahirok can we know how many proposals are submited for a org?
15:30.23carolsTahir: you ask them
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15:30.36Tahirok, thanks
15:30.40carolscheers
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15:35.31n3g4tiv3eLemEnthello
15:35.34n3g4tiv3eLemEntfolks!
15:35.37carolshello
15:35.47n3g4tiv3eLemEntwhat's going on!
15:35.54carolswe’re having tea.
15:35.59carolscan we help you with anything?
15:36.01downeyperks up
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15:39.50Tahircarols one more thing, can you me give idea about when comments on proposals will not consider.
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15:40.00carolsTahir: when they will not consider?
15:40.06carolsi don’t think i understand what you mean.
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15:44.21Tahircarols I mean if I submit a comment to request for updating of my proposal, what is the last date of comment?
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15:48.04carolsTahir: last date? the date is when you make the comment.
15:48.08carolsi still don’t understand.
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15:50.53gevaertsI guess the question is "when is the latest the org will take new comments into account?", to which the answer will be "It depends on the org, but it will almost certainly be *before* April 15"
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15:55.58TahirThe question is that if i made a comment on 21 April then surely it will not effect on acceptation/rejection of my proposal so what the date is till then the comment is considerable to update the proposal or can some effect on proposal acceptation /rejection.
15:56.33carolsTahir: i have no idea. i don’t even know if comments will affect acceptance/rejection. you’ll probably want to ask the org.
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15:57.22Tahircarols ok
15:57.25carolscheers
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16:17.32kblinevening folks
16:17.38carolshi kblin
16:17.59kremlin-hello
16:18.04carolshi kremlin-
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16:18.40kblinhey carols, how's life on your side of the planet?
16:18.52carolsit’s nice, thanks. how about for you?
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16:20.51kblinhaving "fun" learning about file system limitations once you go above 16 TB of data, but can't really complain otherwise :)
16:21.03carolsgreat :-)
16:21.10kblinit seems like we're getting a prerelease version of summer over the weekend
16:21.19carolsplanning any trips out to the US any time soon?
16:21.31kblinmentor summit, I guess
16:21.39carolsfair enough
16:21.50kblinunless a work conference comes up that I don't know about yet
16:22.25kblinbut I'll be spending my vacation on a) diving in portugal and b) the edinburgh fringe festival
16:22.36kblinso no jetting around the US this year
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16:23.43carolsthat sounds very nice.
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16:23.52carolsno reason to come to the US if you don’t have to :-)
16:26.24kblinapart from the mentor summit of course. I was very sad I didn't make it last year
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16:26.34carolsyou were missed, for sure.
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16:55.58Tokthgood morning
16:56.07carolsgood morning Tokth
16:57.01Tokthis this a general chat channel?
16:57.29carolsTokth: general chat related to gsoc, yes
16:57.38carolsnot just any chat at all.
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16:58.44TokthIm curious.. I kept seeing other proposals wth timelines of 10 weeks. Though looking at the calendar its 13 weeks
16:58.46Tokthis that correct?
16:58.56carolsTokth: it depends on what the org wants
16:59.01carolsdoes the org think it’s correct?
16:59.20TokthI have no idea to be honest
16:59.31carolsthen neither do i, to be honest :-)
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16:59.45Tokththough it matters litle, Im sure that my proposal wont get picked in comparison to some of the other ones I saw submitted
16:59.47Tokthlol
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17:04.14PulkoMandyTokth: the proposal isn't everything... we had some good ones but students not answering our comments and not showing any sign of life on our IRC channel and mailing list
17:04.57abhinavsv3Hi , I have applied for an Organization in GSoC .  In its Idea page I noticed "No longer taking applicants" infornt of the mentors name that I have applied for  .Will this affect my proposal in any way ?
17:05.37abhinavsv3Did not see that before
17:05.45meflinno one is taking applications, the application time has passed
17:05.47abhinavsv3there
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17:06.41abhinavsv3That means ?  will he look into my proposal  ?
17:07.17carolsabhinavsv3: i can assure you that if you submitted a proposal before the deadline that it will be looked at.
17:08.45abhinavsv3carol : Thank you :) .  Will there be any comments from them now [ that I could see ] ?
17:08.57carolsabhinavsv3: only if they choose to do so.
17:09.24abhinavsv3oh ok  . Thank you :)
17:09.30carolsyw
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17:12.27MisterAcarols: are comments generally a good or bad thing?
17:12.34gevaertsYes
17:12.36carolsMisterA: i don’t know?
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17:12.56gevaertsComments saying "This is a bad proposal" are a bad thing
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17:13.27MisterAI haven't gotten any comments on my proposal yet, idk if I should be worried that it might be bad or whatnot, too insecure for this stuff haha
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17:13.45carolsi can tell you with confidence, you should never be worried about anything
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17:14.19scorche|shMisterA: talk to the org you applied to - communication is almost always a good thing  =)
17:14.28scorche|shthey may not comment, but it might be worth a try
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17:15.11MisterAgood idea, thanks. I'll try harder to not worry too
17:15.12MisterAlol
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17:29.37Gentlecatsorry, wrong tab
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17:50.26kremlin-quick question -- will some of us hear back from the organizations before apr. 6 or will everyone hear all at once?
17:50.39carolskremlin-: everyone hears at once
17:50.45carolsand it’s not on april 6, it’s the 21
17:51.04kremlin-carols: ah, thanks
17:51.07carolsyw
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18:02.23carolsserves some more tea and coffee
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19:17.03Justin___hi all!  gsoc question here:
19:17.09carolssure
19:17.56Justin___I go to a school on the quarter system, and we're not done until June 15.  I put in my application two possible ways to deal with this: (1) I would start working on my project late (i.e. mid-June), and finish late, (i.e. mid-September), so my project would just be offset from the normal schedule by about a month
19:18.12Justin___OR (2) I would take three classes in the spring and be on the normal schedule
19:18.18carolsokay…
19:18.24carolswhat’s the question?
19:18.26Justin___any idea which of these would be better for GSoC?
19:18.35carolsJustin___: what does the org prefer?
19:18.37gevaertsJustin___: "finish late" is tricky
19:18.38Justin___I wasn't really sure if the offset schedule was something that would be acceptable
19:18.52carolsJustin___: is it acceptable to the org?
19:18.53gevaertsThe orgs have to decide on pass/fail on the official end
19:19.01Justin___the guy at the org who would be mentoring me seemed fine with the "start late, finish late" schedule
19:19.06Justin___ok
19:19.07Justin___I see
19:19.20gevaertsWell, if they're fine with it, that's fine
19:19.25Justin___why is "finish late" tricky?
19:19.48carolsJustin___: because they still have to judge your work at the final evaluation based on not all the information
19:19.55carolsand because you have to submit a code sample
19:20.14carolsbut if they want that, i’m sure they have a grand master plan of how you’re going to achieve that
19:20.43Justin___so basically you're saying they would still be constrained with GSoC's master schedule, with the finish date + evaluation deadline in mid-August - i.e. they couldn't just submit an evaluation late for me?
19:20.57carolscorrect. we don’t change any of the dates on the timeline for any one person
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19:21.01carolsit’s not feasible
19:21.08Justin___makes sense.
19:21.23Justin___got it.  thanks for the advice!
19:21.27carolsyw
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19:33.48carolsserves some more tea and coffee
19:34.40gevaertsdrinks some more coffee
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20:00.14Tokthhow is everyone doing?
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20:12.23nyhunor93hello everyone! :)
20:12.30carolshi nyhunor93
20:12.33satyam_zhi :)
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20:13.00nyhunor93why is it so quiet here? :D
20:13.24andre__because people don't chat for the sake of chatting.
20:13.40nyhunor93oh, sorry
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20:14.09satyam_zdon't know i guess everyone is waiting for 21st April :D
20:15.28nyhunor93you must be right :D
20:15.29Manishearthandre__: heh, in some other open source IRC rooms the topic derails quite often
20:15.37andre__that's true
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20:16.30satyam_zyeah !!
20:18.43KolibriOS|yogevWell I am actually waiting for April 9
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20:19.16gauravb7090KolibriOS|yogev: what happens on April 9?
20:19.43gevaerts!timeline | gauravb7090
20:19.43gsocbotgauravb7090: "timeline" is http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc2014
20:19.44KolibriOS|yogevgauravb7090: We get initial slot numbers from carols and have to start thinking on whom to accept.
20:20.53gauravb7090Ohh okay..students won't get any official info before 21st
20:20.55gauravb7090?
20:21.06meflintrue
20:21.14meflinfor non-students is work time :)
20:21.16gevaertsWell...
20:21.26gevaertsThey're not supposed to get unofficial info either
20:21.53kushagra_what happens in case a student is selected for more than one project?
20:22.10carolskushagra_: the orgs will work it out amongst themselves
20:22.30kushagra_like a trade ?
20:22.41carolskushagra_: it depends.
20:22.48carolsthey’ll figure it out, don’t worry.
20:24.41kushagra_carols: thanks :)
20:24.45carolscheers
20:25.09KolibriOS|yogevkushagra_: Not really a trade, one org will get the student, and the other org will select another student from their remaining students.
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20:25.50gauravb7090doing something right now for the organisation will boast the chances of getting selected? or does it solely depends on the proposal?
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20:26.09Manishearthdepends on the mentor i guess, but it should be a bit of both
20:26.10carolsgauravb7090: i don’t know, what’s the org’s policy on that?
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20:26.29gevaertsIt shouldn't hurt your chances anyway
20:26.32gauravb7090no idea on the org's policy
20:26.43gevaertsAnd I'd expect that for most orgs it will help
20:27.06KolibriOS|yogevkushagra_: If student 1 applied to orgs A and B, and student 2 applied to orgs B and C, then orgs A and B cannot really trade neither of the students 1 or 2
20:27.07gauravb7090okay :)
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20:27.25bretonlast year a student was traded for a beer
20:27.44KolibriOS|yogevhehe
20:28.11meflinheh I recall that one :D
20:28.19gevaertsis upset!
20:28.20maxdaybreton ahah true I remember !
20:28.26gevaertsWhy haven't I heard that before?
20:28.26KolibriOS|yogevWas it a legal trade? :-P
20:28.34meflinbest de-dupe eveer
20:29.09meflinthat is legal yes
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20:29.42gevaertsBetter than a sword fight to the death. Those are frowned upon by the authorities
20:29.50kushagra_KolibriOS|yogev: how is it decided as to which org gets the student and the other org has to choose a new one?
20:30.06stqismkushagra_: Orgs work that out
20:30.25KolibriOS|yogevkushagra_: If orgs cannot work it out themselves, then there is a deduplication meeting on IRC
20:30.39kushagra_other than through drinking games or sword fights i assume
20:30.46KolibriOS|yogevkushagra_: And if on that meeting, the orgs still cannot agree who gets the student, then carols decides.
20:31.02meflinorg's can decide how they wish ... even sword fights
20:31.25gevaertsSome org admins have scars
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20:31.52stqismSome org admins have years of combat on them
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20:32.46meflinits always a good idea for extreme measures of resolution to make sure the backup admin is able to press the buttons in melange ;)
20:33.03kushagra_do u tell the accepted students the story behind these heroic deeds and the subsequent battle scars ?
20:33.16meflinI do not
20:34.03kushagra_why dont you let the students choose ? as to which project they prefer more ?
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20:34.47meflindepending on the situation I have asked a student what they prefer ... but we are not required to and its not always relevant
20:34.58KolibriOS|yogevkushagra_: This is also an option, but only if both orgs agree to ask the student.
20:35.23KolibriOS|yogevkushagra_: If one of the orgs doesn't agree, then it's not relevant.
20:35.40stqismkushagra_: It's all on the orgs, they could ask a student, they could decide over a game of cards
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20:36.02meflinand to give an example of not relevant :D
20:36.25meflinlast year I had more good students the slots to fill .. the other org had 1 slot to fill and only 1 good app ( a duplicate )
20:37.02meflinso if I didn't ship the student off I would both make that org not do gsoc at all , and block a good student from my own org
20:37.09kushagra_or maybe next time google can make it compulsory for students to give their proposals a priority, what project they prefer the most and so on. might make it easier for the mentors
20:37.34meflinkushagra_: google already requires you to be willing to work with any org you submit to
20:37.43gevaertsFirst of all, duplicates are not very common
20:37.49meflinthankfuly :)
20:38.18KolibriOS|yogevmeflin: Oh interesting story, didn't think it could happen (the 1 good app only).
20:38.41meflinnew org
20:39.05KolibriOS|yogevmeflin: Do you know how many proposals total have they got? If it's not a secret?
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20:39.31KolibriOS|yogevmeflin: I wonder from how many did they choose 1...
20:39.48meflinI have no idea .. that wasn't my org
20:40.07KolibriOS|yogevmeflin: I know, you just told it before :-)
20:40.14kushagra_and how strictly the mid-term and final evaluations are followed ? like down to every single test case or some slack is given ?
20:40.29stqismkushagra_: All on the orgs
20:40.35stqismMentors grade you, not carols :)
20:40.44meflinfor small orgs I've seen lots of variances .. like 4 total apps to 30
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20:41.08stqismmeflin: Total apps in what sense?
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20:41.18meflintotal number of apps submited
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20:41.45stqismmeflin: Other new folks got that? We got 88, despite being new
20:42.01stqismmeflin: Now our number seems a bit absurd
20:42.01meflinlucky
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20:42.45stqismWell, we have projects under us that go across the rainbow, so we have a bunch of skill sets we can work with
20:42.58KolibriOS|yogevstqism: You are a first-time org?
20:43.01stqismSo people see Android and suddenly apply
20:43.03stqismKolibriOS|yogev: Yes
20:43.28KolibriOS|yogevstqism: Well, FreeBSD is well-known, so it's not wonder you got so many :-)
20:43.44stqismKolibriOS|yogev: We're not FreeBSD though ;_;
20:43.47KolibriOS|yogevoh
20:43.48KolibriOS|yogevheh
20:43.54KolibriOS|yogevwas confused by your /whois
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20:44.06KolibriOS|yogevand was really amazed that FreeBSD is first-time org heh
20:44.10stqismHeh, can't get a org whois because Freenode won't apply for GSoC
20:44.23stqismThat was a group management joke
20:44.35KolibriOS|yogevstqism: So which org?
20:44.42stqismKolibriOS|yogev: Tox, https://tox.im
20:45.06KolibriOS|yogevstqism: Is it like open-source Skype? Sorry I am not familiar.
20:45.20stqismKolibriOS|yogev: Correct, it's like a non sucky Skype.
20:45.35KolibriOS|yogevstqism: Well done on the number of apps then!
20:46.13stqismKolibriOS|yogev: Well, we have a bunch of sub projects under us, like Antox, Venom, Toxicity, Qt, etc; so we're like a union
20:46.20KolibriOS|yogevstqism: KolibriOS got 13 apps total (also first-time org).
20:46.35stqismKolibriOS|yogev: Was about to ask what org :)
20:47.08KolibriOS|yogevstqism: But we have at least 4 amazing proposals so I really don't know what to do when we get 2 slots for being new org. I guess I will have to flip a coin.
20:47.20KolibriOS|yogev:-)
20:47.55kushagra_withers in pain when a mentor says something like this :P
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20:48.31stqismKolibriOS|yogev: We're at like 25 candidates we need to interview in total, but we want to get that down to 6 to 12, so 1 to 2 a sub project, but I'm sure we'll get like 2 :(
20:48.52KolibriOS|yogevkushagra_: So for example if our org gets only 2 slots and one student is duplicate with other org, we will definitely give it to other org without fight.
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20:50.33KolibriOS|yogevBut we will sell, we will see... Maybe some veteran orgs get more slots than they need and they will be willing to give them to Tox.
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20:52.19kushagra_KolibriOS|yogev: does google decide upon a fixed number of slots to distribute from or just gives away slots based on the orgs seniority ?
20:52.55KolibriOS|yogevkushagra_: It's complex: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2014/studentallocations
20:53.12stqismIt's like some crazy science
20:53.23KolibriOS|yogevkushagra_: So the answer to both of your questions is true.
20:53.23Tokthohh wow
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20:54.07KolibriOS|yogevNew org can get 2 slots just for being new, regardless of the number of applications. Veteran org can get more slots if they have more application and the org is better known.
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20:54.36KolibriOS|yogevAt least this is how I understood that :-)
20:54.45kremlin-up to two or at minimum two?
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20:55.51kushagra_feels that the mentors are underpaid at $500 :P
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20:56.53kremlin-oof, that makes me nervous, the org i applied to is a first-year
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20:59.33meflinup to 2 for a new org
20:59.46kremlin-ah :o
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20:59.49meflinthe issue here is new orgs often do not understand how much time and effort is required
21:00.09kremlin-gotcha
21:00.10Satyamzyeah right :D
21:00.33meflinoverload a new org and they could easily crash and burn
21:01.09kushagra_what does google gains from this program ?
21:01.59kremlin-google relies on a lot of opensource software, encouraging new developers to start contributing to projects helps solidfy that software in the long term
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21:02.26kremlin-esp. linux, openssh/ftp, etc.
21:02.54kushagra_ah, smart :)
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21:12.23TokthI saw a bunch of projects that Id liek to work on.. though at this point in time I feel that Im not as advanced as I should be
21:12.52carolsTokth: a great case for becoming a volunteer open source contributor and honing your skills with them
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21:13.25Toktheventually Ill get there I imagine
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22:37.08nurupocould someone explain me how selection of accpeted students on melange works? say we got n number of slots allocated by google. how do we tell melange which proposals should it accept? or do we accept them manually? like, does melange itself automatically accepts n most rated proposals with a mentor assigned or do organizations have to mannualy open a proposal and mark it as accepted, without melange being directly involved?
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22:38.09ollynurupo: the admin for your org marks certain p[ropoals as accepted and makes sure mentors are assigned
22:38.21ollythe ratings aren't relevant at all
22:38.33ollythey're just a tool you can use if you want
22:38.56nurupookay, i see how it is then :)
22:39.04nurupoolly: thank you
22:39.38ollythe ratings were relevant for this years ago, but that resulted in the occasional surprise acceptance after resolving duplicates
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23:12.08wkoszek_Question on scoring: is Google Melange scoring used by most of the projects' mentors?
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23:12.18wkoszek_I mean 0...5 star thing.
23:12.51meflinnever used it
23:13.02ollywkoszek_: do you mean do most orgs use it?
23:13.10wkoszek_olly: Yes.
23:13.23ollyI doubt anyone here has enough data
23:13.36wkoszek_olly: Basically I'd like to know if mentors are meant to just go there and score the ideas.
23:13.42ollyI can say that about 67% of the orgs I've been involved with do
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23:13.59meflindepends on your org
23:14.05ollywkoszek_: i'd check with the org admin
23:14.19meflineven tho I dont "use" it i've been happy enough for mentors to use it
23:14.21wkoszek_olly: I'm an org admin. I'm interested in what other projects use.
23:14.21ollyit's generally good to agree what "2" actually means
23:15.01ollyfor xapian, we have an admin do a first triage pass, and anything scored "1" others can just ignore
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23:15.47ollyso ones which are just a bio and/or paste from the ideas list can be discounted without wasting a lot of mentor time
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23:17.16ollyin debian, there's a very strong mentor to project link, so they let the mentors for each project decide which student they'd like (if any) of those who applied, and if there aren't enough slots, the admins decide which to select
23:17.24ollyand don't bother with scoring in melange
23:17.51ollybut i bet lots of approaches work
23:19.40stqismwkoszek_: olly We've got a weird approach using pre screening and interviews, not really touching the ratings
23:20.01ollyi've found the main thing you get from the scoring isn't the exact rankings, but that it narrows down the ones you need to think about
23:20.12meflinstqism: that is a procedure I've used before to good effect and am with my smaller org this year
23:20.51ollyinterviews can be very useful, though it can take a lot of effort to coordinate
23:20.59meflinand time
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23:24.47ollyyeah
23:25.11ollymeflin: do you IRC interview?
23:25.31ollyis sure you've said before, but I'm afraid I've forgotten
23:25.33meflinyes
23:25.45meflinfor small org 1 hour for every application
23:26.00meflinI've seen others say they use google hangouts
23:26.00ollywhat sort of stuff do you cover/
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23:26.24meflinconflicts/over view of what your are doing/code of doom
23:26.46ollymmm, that'd probably be 30 minutes of "can you hear me?" and 30 minutes of useful talk
23:27.10ollynot that I've ever used google hangouts, but I've watched people trying to use skype
23:27.50meflinthe small orgs 1-4 slots have all been irc based so ... if you want to join the community its kinda required to irc
23:27.51ollycode of doom?
23:28.17meflinsome code that is hard to follow along and see what they can make of it
23:28.24meflinits not a pass/fail technical test
23:28.47ollymore to see how the approach things?
23:28.58meflinyes .. and do they ask good questions
23:29.51gevaertsThe thing is, to properly do this someone in the discussion does need to understand the code, so why didn't they clean it up? :)
23:30.21meflinit is _clean_ :D
23:30.21ollygevaerts: IME, the worst code is the code exactly one person understands...
23:30.27meflinits just complicated
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23:30.47gevaertsolly: good, so that means it gets better as people go away :)
23:31.15ollygevaerts: it could be argued that you don't want people who write code that only they understand contributing to your project
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23:31.45ollyat least if they go, they will no longer argue against replacing it
23:31.47gevaertsWell, it depends
23:31.47meflinI agree
23:32.11meflinthis more throw a curveball and see how they handle it
23:32.24gevaertsIs it because it's unnecessary complicated code, or is it because only one person understands the *problem* it solves?
23:32.51meflinneither
23:34.00ollygevaerts: i think my biggest concern is I may be talking about myself
23:34.20gevaertsolly: I can fully understand that concern :)
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