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| 11:55.38 | pmurias | if I lost the prepaid card what should I do? |
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| 11:56.19 | roccivic | pmurias: Send email to carols@google.com |
| 11:56.28 | roccivic | i think |
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| 15:39.10 | sanity | hi all. so i'm very concerned about my student. he is unresponsive to my emails, and goes days without committing anything. my expectation is that he should work full-time but I'm fairly sure he isn't |
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| 15:39.28 | sanity | he admits that he's not being as productive as he should be |
| 15:40.31 | sanity | if he was my employee I'd be threatening to fire him about now. What remedies are available to me as a mentor? |
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| 15:42.55 | |Kev| | Essentially - discuss progress with him, agree what should be getting done by midterm, assess at midterm whether he's making sufficient progress. |
| 15:44.47 | |Kev| | Agree a set of behaviours with him, etc. |
| 15:45.18 | sanity | |Kev|, I've been trying, i've said i expect him to work 7-9 hours per day, and he agreed to do that, but he hasn't. |
| 15:45.35 | sanity | |Kev|, under what circumstances can/will Google withhold payment to him? |
| 15:45.49 | ChrisOelmueller | not on the amount of work (since that is hard to check remotely) but on certain milestones and progress indicators |
| 15:45.58 | |Kev| | If you fail him, he doesn't get paid. |
| 15:46.12 | |Kev| | But 'working 7-9 hours' isn't a useful behaviour. |
| 15:46.38 | |Kev| | "Sending you a progress update every morning" would be, or "committing his work every day" or whatever. |
| 15:46.40 | sanity | |Kev|, i have also agreed a detailed road-map with him, but he has barely completed the first two weeks of work |
| 15:46.41 | chetan_ | sanity: Irrelevant but if I am able to successfully complete my project on transports in freenet I wish to help out for the same in yours |
| 15:47.22 | sanity | chetan_, that's a kind offer, thank you - although you should stay focussed on freenet for now |
| 15:47.23 | |Kev| | sanity: Yes, this is the problem with detailed road maps. Professional software houses rarely stick to them, so expecting students to is optimistic. |
| 15:48.00 | sanity | |Kev|, well, it's really just bullet points about what should be done each week, "detailed" may have been overstating it |
| 15:48.02 | chetan_ | sanity: "If I successfully complete" :) |
| 15:48.24 | |Kev| | sanity: I'd go for behaviours, rather than objectives. Or at least, in addition to. |
| 15:48.59 | sanity | so, my takeaway is that I want him to send me daily updates (each weekday), and I can warn him that he is in danger of being failed at mid-term? |
| 15:49.05 | |Kev| | If he agrees to give you a progress report every morning towards those objectives, that he will commit code every day, that he will ask you whenever he has a problem, etc. then these are things that 'it was harder than I expected' can't be applied to. |
| 15:49.59 | sanity | |Kev|, right. i don't think he would disagree that he isn't performing adequately, I chewed him out a bit last week and he agreed that his performance was inadequate and apologized for it |
| 15:50.39 | |Kev| | It's easy to have sympathy with a student who is working hard, but isn't experienced at being managed, and is finding the code too difficult. |
| 15:51.16 | |Kev| | So by agreeing things that make it easy for him to be managed, it leaves a much clearer picture of whether he is working hard but ineffectively, or just not working. |
| 15:51.42 | sanity | |Kev|, I think the core issue is that he isn't working hard enough. the code is difficult, but I've put a *vast* amount of effort into brining him up to speed (probably about 10 hours on Skype in total in the month leading up to him starting the project) |
| 15:52.00 | |Kev| | Understood. |
| 15:52.24 | |Kev| | Is he sitting there floundering because he just doesn't know what his next step should be? |
| 15:52.26 | sanity | |Kev|, additionally, i've made it clear that he can ping me any time, day or night, via IM and I will help |
| 15:52.57 | |Kev| | Yes - although some students really don't like to accept that easily. |
| 15:52.58 | sanity | |Kev|, no, I think he is having trouble motivating himself. he literally told me he is having trouble waking up before noon to work on it |
| 15:53.38 | |Kev| | Fair enough. |
| 15:54.12 | sanity | so, if I fail him at mid-term, does Google pay him anything, or does he just get paid half? |
| 15:54.32 | |Kev| | There comes a point where a mentor has done what they can and the student just fails. And it sucks for the mentor. |
| 15:54.48 | sanity | |Kev|, tell me about it, I feel like I've done more work than he has! |
| 15:54.59 | |Kev| | Students have already had a small amount (I guess $500, that's what it has been in past years). |
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| 15:55.15 | |Kev| | Half of the rest comes at midterm, if they pass, and the rest at the end, if they pass that. |
| 15:55.17 | sharvey | :( |
| 15:55.32 | simonl | |Kev|: $505 this year :) |
| 15:55.45 | |Kev| | simonl: Thanks. |
| 15:55.54 | sanity | I see, so if I fail him at mid-term he only gets the $505, nothing else? what is the total this year anyway? is it $5,000 |
| 15:56.30 | aleek | sanity: Google will ask you, if your student is working well, so if you are sure that he wont be able to finish his work you can fell him |
| 15:56.57 | sanity | aleek: and they ask me that at mid-term? |
| 15:57.01 | |Kev| | sanity: Yes. |
| 15:57.12 | |Kev| | You get a pass/fail tickbox at midterm and another at completion. |
| 15:57.12 | simonl | $5015 in total (they added $5 per payment, IIRC something about covering a small part of the fees that inevitably applies) |
| 15:57.35 | sanity | ok, i think i know how to proceed, thank you all - hopefully i can get him back on track |
| 15:57.36 | aleek | sanity: yes |
| 15:57.41 | chetan_ | $505 + $2255 + $2255 |
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| 15:58.48 | |Kev| | sanity: Another approach, which depends how touchy/feely you are, is to ask him what he's going to achieve tomorrow (each day), which gets him to commit to things himself and potentially take more ownership, depending on his personality. |
| 15:59.14 | sanity | |Kev|, yes, i did that in my last email to him yesterday morning, I received no response to it |
| 15:59.22 | aleek | sanity: students must also send their code at midterm evaluation, so the number of sloc could be relevant |
| 15:59.37 | sanity | aleek: yes, it's all in github |
| 15:59.59 | |Kev| | Yay, let's count sloc. It was a great measure in the 80s, I don't see why it wouldn't be good now :p |
| 16:00.21 | aleek | sanity: but afaik, we must send an email or sth directly to google |
| 16:00.43 | |Kev| | That would be new. I don't remember students having to do that last year at midterm, only at the end. |
| 16:00.51 | |Kev| | Although I could have not noticed, I suppose. |
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| 16:08.58 | sanity | ok, here is the email I'm going to send - feedback appreciated: http://piratepad.net/OC3h9QAvw6 |
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| 16:14.39 | sanity | ok, i'm going to send |
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| 16:41.50 | denials | Hmm. Is the GSOC Mentors list still rolling along? I think I might have been dropped from it, as my inbox doesn't show anything since May 31. And that seems... unusual :) |
| 16:42.53 | |Kev| | I've not had anything in that period. |
| 16:43.59 | JordiGH | denials: Stir the pot. |
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| 16:44.37 | denials | JordiGH: hah, no thanks :) |
| 16:44.58 | denials | thanks for confirming that it's just quiet! |
| 16:45.11 | JordiGH | Comment on the ethical implications of publicly shaming a student who hasn't responded. |
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| 16:45.41 | MatthewWilkes | https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/google-summer-of-code-mentors-list shows no posts since then either |
| 16:46.38 | nulltin | has heard so much about the mentor's list, wonder what conspiracies go on in there. ;) |
| 16:46.42 | denials | oh yes, forgot about the groups UI :) |
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| 16:47.02 | Lennie | It's mostly theories about where the world's best chocolate comes from |
| 16:47.36 | nulltin | And where would that be? The swiss? |
| 16:47.40 | denials | And the ethics of encouraging students to bribe mentors with chocolate to get "pass" grades on their midterms |
| 16:48.00 | nulltin | There are ethics for bribing? Ethical bribing? |
| 16:48.19 | nulltin | Sigh, now I'm even more curious. :D |
| 16:48.26 | Lennie | nulltin, the jury hasn't decided yet. I think we might need another tasting in October, perhaps we should expand to the world's most interesting candies though :) |
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| 16:49.18 | nulltin | Hmm, I wish the student's ist was equally interesting... |
| 16:49.55 | sharvey | what is the student list? |
| 16:50.09 | sharvey | I will start a post on chocolate |
| 16:50.12 | nulltin | I've only seen Chris DiBona's mail once in the student's list... :| |
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| 16:53.11 | nulltin | I remember just before the announcement of GSoC results this year there was some noise in this channel about some thread in the mentor's list |
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| 17:48.26 | JordiGH | Hm, my student had his laptop stolen, and his production has gone down. |
| 17:48.28 | JordiGH | wat do |
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| 17:50.34 | chetan_ | Is that a trick question or did it really happen? |
| 17:50.53 | klocatelli | free laptop! |
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| 17:51.10 | klocatelli | or, internet cafe address :P |
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| 17:51.33 | weltall | desktop |
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| 17:52.18 | sanity | JordiGH: is their work gone too? |
| 17:52.56 | JordiGH | sanity: No, they've been making regular commits. |
| 17:53.13 | JordiGH | And he actually emailed us from another computer to explain. |
| 17:53.20 | JordiGH | And said he'd try to get a computer soon. |
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| 17:54.28 | sanity | JordiGH: I guess so long as he is doing his best under the circumstancesÂ… |
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| 17:54.49 | JordiGH | Hm. |
| 17:55.06 | JordiGH | Well, best or not, we have to judge based on code, right? |
| 17:55.08 | sanity | JordiGH: perhaps get some specifics as to how long he'll be without a computer |
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| 17:55.48 | sanity | JordiGH: sure, just make it clear that he needs to get a new computer ASAP, so this isn't an excuse to slack |
| 17:56.40 | JordiGH | "my laptop and a few other things were stolen yesterday. I'm working out with my parents how to get another one in short order, and since my schedule had about a week's buffer I'm still nominally on schedule. I'll keep you all posted, and I should be able to use the campus computers to do some work tomorrow, but as I do not have an R installation at the moment, all my checking for correctness will unfortunately need to wait a little while. |
| 17:56.41 | JordiGH | I'm hoping to be mostly back on my feet by at the latest the middle of next week, and I hope you all have good weekends." |
| 17:56.55 | JordiGH | I guess if by middle of next weeks things don't pick up again, I should start to worry. |
| 17:58.18 | sanity | JordiGH: I wish my student was that conscientious :-) |
| 17:59.10 | JordiGH | Hm, come to think of it, I could lend him a workstation at work (he's local to me, but I'm not the primary mentor) if things get ugly. |
| 17:59.35 | sanity | JordiGH: is R really that hard to install? |
| 17:59.52 | JordiGH | Well, if you don't have root, it's probably a hassle. |
| 18:00.12 | JordiGH | I'm surprised university computers wouldn't have it installed, though |
| 18:01.10 | sanity | yeah |
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