IRC log for #gsoc on 20110412

`00:00.29`	`brewster`	`i assume it resends the proposal but does its appearance mean ive been turned down?`
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`00:04.14`	`Gabor_Bernat`	`woah, the status field disappeared on the proposals page???`
`00:04.50`	`greeniekin`	`brewster, i don't think so. it's on mine. i think the withdraw button lets you withdraw and the resubmit button is if you have withdrawn`
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`00:05.56`	`brik`	`yes, the resubmit button is there in case you accidentally withdraw your application`
`00:06.12`	`brik`	`Gabor_Bernat: it was removed to a void confusion afaik`
`00:06.18`	`brik`	`avoid*`
`00:06.30`	`Gabor_Bernat`	`neat. :D`
`00:06.33`	`greeniekin`	`Gabor_Bernat, i asked the same and i got this as a response <SRabbelier> greeniekin: it wasn't going to change anyway, so we removed it`
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`00:08.03`	`SRabbelier`	`is off to bed`
`00:08.34`	`tensa_zangetsu`	`!next`
`00:08.34`	`gsocbot`	`tensa_zangetsu: "next" is April 22nd: 19:00 UTC - End of reviews, deduplication meeting on IRC`
`00:08.46`	`tensa_zangetsu`	`!timeline`
`00:08.46`	`gsocbot`	`tensa_zangetsu: "timeline" is http://goo.gl/PFsjs`
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`00:18.04`	`greeniekin`	`!slots`
`00:18.05`	`gsocbot`	`greeniekin: "slots" is Slot allocation is done manually by Chris DiBona and Carol Smith, be a good org, play nice on the mentor list and #gsoc, ask for a non-crazy-high number of slots, and you'll probably get what you ask. Note that non-crazy-high for new orgs is around 1 or 2.`
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`00:54.23`	`anth`	`if i should have read this elsewhere, please issue a pointer, but what is it to "accept" a proposal?`
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`00:58.00`	`Triskelios`	`anth: as far as I can tell, it means nothing until the 20th. don't think it factors into slot assignments`
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`00:59.45`	`anth`	`noted. thanks.`
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`01:18.55`	`ajam`	`on my dashboard now i see tabs of publicly visible and withdraw proposal. the 'pending' status is removed. what does that signify`
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`01:20.28`	`ojwb`	`ajam: that the melange devs decided too many students were asking what "pending" status meant, and they'd rather have lots of questions about "where has the status gone"?`
`01:21.14`	`ajam`	`ojwb: initially i could see the 'pending' status..`
`01:21.18`	`ojwb`	`yes`
`01:21.21`	`ojwb`	`and now you can't`
`01:21.27`	`ajam`	`yes`
`01:21.35`	`ojwb`	`as I said above`
`01:21.51`	`ojwb`	`it seemed to be confusing people as to what "pending" meant`
`01:22.03`	`ojwb`	`so instead we have students confused by it disappearing`
`01:22.08`	`ojwb`	`liek yourself`
`01:22.13`	`ojwb`	`*like`
`01:22.41`	`ajam`	`so i should 'resubmit' my proposal , right?`
`01:22.51`	`ojwb`	`only if you withdrew it`
`01:23.03`	`ajam`	`no, i didn't do that`
`01:23.13`	`ojwb`	`the major change is that "status pending" is no longer shown`
`01:23.53`	`ajam`	`ok, i got it. when i clicked the options, i understood their purpose. Thanx neways`
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`02:06.53`	`liuw`	`!faq`
`02:06.53`	`gsocbot`	`liuw: "faq" is http://goo.gl/Up2Qf`
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`02:09.24`	`liuw`	`Hi, I found that the "status" line is gone, and two more fileds - "publicly visible" and " withdraw proposal" - are added.`
`02:09.34`	`liuw`	`Anyone knows what that means?`
`02:10.36`	`dfighter`	`it means the layout was changed`
`02:10.39`	`dfighter`	`nothing more`
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`02:11.28`	`dfighter`	`http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-discuss/browse_thread/thread/bda02183a32391a4/f9c6e788e0e200b4?show_docid=f9c6e788e0e200b4`
`02:11.39`	`dfighter`	`you may want to add that list to your rss feed`
`02:11.44`	`liuw`	`They shouldn't change the layout in the middle of the game, that scares me. :-)`
`02:11.51`	`liuw`	`dfighter: thank you`
`02:11.56`	`dfighter`	`np`
`02:12.13`	`dfighter`	`Go(ogle)d can do anything they please :P`
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`02:12.50`	`dfighter`	`but no worries until you threaten their ad incomes they won't harm you ^^`
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`02:15.53`	`Upthorn`	`!next`
`02:15.54`	`gsocbot`	`Upthorn: "next" is April 22nd: 19:00 UTC - End of reviews, deduplication meeting on IRC`
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`03:04.47`	`dberkholz`	`SRabbelier: have you considered that a bunch of orgs probably won't notice the change in how slots work, so the request will stay at "max" rather than "best only"?`
`03:05.24`	`dberkholz`	`SRabbelier: might be worth a check for whether best == desired`
`03:05.55`	`solardiz`	`dberkholz: i had the same thought, but the check should probably be for desired == 0, which it was when i went to specify it`
`03:06.59`	`ojwb`	`i guess it'll see how on the ball the admin is...`
`03:07.26`	`ojwb`	`though I think the docs say you should respond to requests from google with 48 hours, and there was less formal notice of this`
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`03:11.56`	`dberkholz`	`solardiz: sure, whatever the default is`
`03:12.15`	`dberkholz`	`SRabbelier: solardiz just mentioned that the check should be whatever the desired default is ... apparently 0`
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`03:16.32`	`cm45t3r`	`hey everyone!`
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`03:40.28`	`chx`	`hi. i have accepted a number of proposals earlier today. that seems to be lost. is this a known bug? should i re-accept them?`
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`03:41.21`	`solardiz`	`chx: all proposals appear as "pending" again on the Dashboard, yet i think their "accepted" status remains in the system... yes, it's a bit weird.`
`03:41.32`	`solardiz`	`(this is not an authoritative comment indeed)`
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`03:42.13`	`chx`	`aye i see on the invidual page that remained`
`03:43.17`	`chx`	`SRabbelier: is this a known bug?`
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`03:43.49`	`solardiz`	`i think the student-mentor pairing is what matters for slot assignment now, not the accepted status. at least the former was mentioned in Carol's message and the latter was not.`
`03:44.42`	`solardiz`	`indeed, neither is final yet`
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`03:51.29`	`chx`	`also is it very bad that my awesome treshold is not that much lower than my desired :) ? we actually arrived to these and planned to shot an email to carols explaining it because when we got two numbers there was only one number yet in the org profile but now i am a bit owrried... is amazing supposed to be a very low number?`
`03:51.54`	`dberkholz`	`mine is a little more than half`
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`03:51.59`	`ojwb`	`chx: I think that depends how many amazing proposals you have`
`03:52.51`	`ojwb`	`our two numbers are only different because we have a mentor who is only able to mentor one particular project`
`03:53.12`	`dberkholz`	`we have a bunch that would be really good, but everyone isn't absolutely blown away by them`
`03:53.20`	`ojwb`	`the proposal for that is a good one, but not at the exceptional level`
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`03:53.43`	`ojwb`	`but then we're definitely mentor limited, not good proposal limited`
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`03:54.11`	`chx`	`My worry is, if i set a very vrey low amazing proposal number will we get a very very low number of slots?`
`03:54.53`	`dberkholz`	`on the other hand, if you set it high, you might take away someone else's amazing proposals =P`
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`03:55.39`	`ojwb`	`and if you set it high, will that be taken as greed rather than a reflection of the number of good proposals you have...`
`03:56.24`	`dberkholz`	`i'm guessing that basically the slot algorithm will attempt to give everyone's amazing slots, then try to allocate any leftovers by percentage of desired slots for each org.`
`03:56.55`	`chx`	`ojwb: right`
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`03:57.55`	`chx`	`i have dropped it to below half.`
`03:58.07`	`dberkholz`	`put it where your amazing ones are, there's no magic number...`
`03:58.30`	`chx`	`It's hard enough to pick the applications that we accept but to pick which ones are amazing?`
`03:59.47`	`ojwb`	`my key criterion was whether I'd be disappointed or heart broken if those proposals didn't get a slot`
`04:00.11`	`dberkholz`	`yeah. "that totally sucks!" vs "that's a bummer."`
`04:00.23`	`solardiz`	`ojwb: same here`
`04:00.44`	`dberkholz`	`needs to step away from the computer for a while.`
`04:01.11`	`dberkholz`	`ojwb: did you try my fancy graph?`
`04:01.20`	`dberkholz`	`i tried yours =P`
`04:01.51`	`ojwb`	`dberkholz: yes, it put the cut-off for consideration exactly where I already had`
`04:01.55`	`ojwb`	`graph dipped to 0 there`
`04:02.37`	`dberkholz`	`cool!`
`04:02.49`	`dberkholz`	`good to get some objective support`
`04:02.54`	`ojwb`	`I think I said on here, but you probably missed it in the huge amounts of scrollback`
`04:03.09`	`solardiz`	`don't you have large numbers of proposals for the same tasks (where you need to choose at most 1 or 2 students out of 5+)? cut-off levels fail there...`
`04:03.12`	`ojwb`	`we also defined fixed points in the ratings though`
`04:03.31`	`dberkholz`	`oh, yeah you did. i just missed that line in my highlight window.`
`04:03.31`	`ojwb`	`like 1 = spam, <= 5 for would not consider as is, > 6 for worth considering`
`04:03.34`	`solardiz`	`i mean, when there are many proposals of similar quality`
`04:03.51`	`ojwb`	`and the divide is a little over 6`
`04:04.12`	`dberkholz`	`solardiz: it still gives a score value. you just need to look at the proposals above that score and subtract duplicates`
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`04:04.33`	`ojwb`	`solardiz: we only have two applications for the same "idea" in the top slice (of 11 proposals)`
`04:04.46`	`solardiz`	`for the slots count, sure, just subtract duplicates. for actual acceptance, it's trickier.`
`04:05.43`	`solardiz`	`ojwb: understood. (not the case here.)`
`04:05.55`	`dberkholz`	`we only accept the best score for any given idea.`
`04:06.06`	`dberkholz`	`for the others, it's too bad that they did good but not best`
`04:06.26`	`dberkholz`	`our projects are mostly too different to ask them to switch around`
`04:06.47`	`dberkholz`	`anyway, i'm gonna go read for a while before bed. afk`
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`04:08.21`	`chx`	`i do not necessarily agree with some of my fellow mentors scoring so the ranking is just something to lean on not necessariyl the real order`
`04:08.44`	`MWN3333`	`Anyone feel like giving their guess on how many spots Google with offer to each organization?`
`04:09.12`	`ojwb`	`MWN3333: the numbers are likely to range from 1 to 50+`
`04:09.21`	`ojwb`	`or did you want a list of 175 numbers?`
`04:09.22`	`chx`	`lol`
`04:09.40`	`MWN3333`	`I thought the number was constant across organizations. Nevermind.`
`04:09.42`	`chx`	`!numstats`
`04:09.50`	`chx`	`MWN3333: no way`
`04:10.32`	`chx`	`MWN3333: come on, there are organizations that have like five possible mentors, i have fourty listed and can ask for more we have , i cant remember what, 7000 git accounts?`
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`04:11.04`	`wtachi`	`!numstats`
`04:11.04`	`gsocbot`	`wtachi: "numstats" is There are 9 statistics in !numapps.`
`04:11.11`	`chx`	`!numapps`
`04:11.12`	`gsocbot`	`chx: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted this year; 5474 proposals were submitted by 3731 students. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted.`
`04:11.27`	`wtachi`	`!slots`
`04:11.27`	`gsocbot`	`wtachi: "slots" is Slot allocation is done manually by Chris DiBona and Carol Smith, be a good org, play nice on the mentor list and #gsoc, ask for a non-crazy-high number of slots, and you'll probably get what you ask. Note that non-crazy-high for new orgs is around 1 or 2.`
`04:11.32`	`chx`	`MWN3333: that's the onyl number you have.`
`04:11.41`	`wtachi`	`hmm, that's only helpful if you know what a "slot" is`
`04:11.50`	`MWN3333`	`Those are useful statistics, thanks.`
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`04:26.13`	`alext`	`Hi all`
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`04:26.18`	`vsrinivas`	`hi.`
`04:27.09`	`alext`	`I just noticed that the 'status' option is no longer there in my proposal and there are new options in at the top the proposal`
`04:27.50`	`alext`	`saying Publicity available : enable disable`
`04:28.22`	`alext`	`Withdraw proposal : Withdraw Resubmit`
`04:28.47`	`alext`	`Why status is not there anymore?`
`04:29.00`	`wtachi`	`alext: probably because it was confusing people`
`04:29.05`	`ojwb`	`alext: i think it was decided it was confusing`
`04:29.43`	`dfighter`	`http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-discuss/browse_thread/thread/bda02183a32391a4/f9c6e788e0e200b4?show_docid=f9c6e788e0e200b4`
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`04:30.42`	`ojwb`	`does anyone else find the button pairs more confusing that how it was before?`
`04:31.01`	`wtachi`	`yes!`
`04:31.06`	`wtachi`	`there's no long description`
`04:31.22`	`ojwb`	`if you want two buttons, actual radio buttons would be clearer`
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`04:31.48`	`wtachi`	`what is this, 2001? you'll take fancy colored buttons and you'll like them!`
`04:32.19`	`alext`	`Yeah, got it! Thanks! :-)`
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`04:42.19`	`svaksha`	`hmm.. seems that whatever options melange gives ends up confusing someone or the other.`
`04:43.10`	`dfighter`	`would be nice to see some chart showing the number of such confused people / orgs with the topic they applied for :P`
`04:43.36`	`dfighter`	`and ofc tracking if they end up accepted or declined`
`04:43.55`	`dfighter`	`bets on declined for most`
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`04:44.45`	`svaksha`	`dfighter: more charts/stats == more work for melange volunteers, no cookies for you`
`04:45.15`	`dfighter`	`fortunately has cookies and biscuits already cached`
`04:45.26`	`dfighter`	`evil laugh`
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`04:46.25`	`svaksha`	`dfighter: dontcha know gsoc is all about sharing :^)`
`04:46.49`	`dfighter`	`I can share my bills`
`04:46.52`	`dfighter`	`and other expenses`
`04:46.53`	`dfighter`	`:P`
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`04:48.33`	`svaksha`	`hides`
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`04:57.44`	`dfighter`	`http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-discuss/browse_thread/thread/39f748202c3857d2/c01200e952734070?show_docid=c01200e952734070`
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`04:57.47`	`dfighter`	`more confused people`
`05:01.33`	`kblin`	`morning folks`
`05:01.39`	`dfighter`	`morning kai`
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`06:08.46`	`scorche`	`kblin: thanks for that email ;)`
`06:09.14`	`scorche`	`i began writing something similar up, but decided not to as i didnt want to generate more noise and didnt care enough to get in a long debate in private correspondance`
`06:10.16`	`scorche`	`doesnt get this "we need to make X group special" crap`
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`06:26.03`	`Ophiuchi`	`the point about female participation would be to -stop- making women special: stop making them harrassed, stop automatically assuming them to be technical idiots and a drain of ressources because they happen to have a female name, stop bleeding kicking them off developer channels "because women can't do computers", f.e.`
`06:26.55`	`Ophiuchi`	`some of th ewannafucks I have received over the years would make your eyes bleed.`
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`06:29.24`	`\|Kev\|`	`I'm aware of people outside the projects behaving in such ways, but I've never seen someone from inside a project act in either way. Do devs actually do this?`
`06:29.51`	`Ophiuchi`	`there's a sufficient number of os projects that require newbies to hand in their self esteem in order to join. The number of projects that don't require that of women participants is, sadly, not that large.`
`06:31.04`	`\|Kev\|`	`Is that what you meant to say?`
`06:31.08`	`kai`	`scorche: I tried to not write it, and I tried to not write "Equal opportunity is the new sexism", but I failed on both counts`
`06:31.17`	`\|Kev\|`	`It parses as "Women get to keep their self esteem, and that's bad".`
`06:31.53`	`scorche`	`yeah - i thought the whole thing was that women want to be treated the same as men do - but apparently that isnt enough for some people..`
`06:32.00`	`Ophiuchi`	`Kev: how many newbies will know it's not an "actual developer" but "just" the community that's toxic? and does it really matter if it's "just hangers-on" that make being on a list hell, if noboby says "hey, this is not acceptable"?`
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`06:32.37`	`\|Kev\|`	`Ophiuchi: I am specifically talking about idiots in chat channels outside the project - I've never seen it happen on a core list.`
`06:33.14`	`\|Kev\|`	`(e.g. I have seen it happen in the helproom on the jabber.org chat server, but not in the Psi, Swift, Prosody etc. project chatrooms)`
`06:33.50`	`\|Kev\|`	`And I don't see it happen at all without some sense of 'this isn't appropriate'.`
`06:34.12`	`\|Kev\|`	`I'm surprised to find it does (and I've got a morbid curiosity which project you've found that deem it acceptable).`
`06:34.16`	`kai`	`scorche: I sense a definitive sexism in sexism debates. you never seem to be able to win one if you're male`
`06:34.39`	`scorche`	`kai: i sense truth in that...`
`06:34.47`	`Ophiuchi`	`Kev: women don't drop off the sky onto core lists either (and yes, I have at least seen the "female name, she must be a really dumb user" attitude a lot)`
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`06:34.48`	`kai`	`scorche: based on my experience working in biology, where most of my co-workers are female`
`06:36.12`	`Ophiuchi`	`kai: try to debate male literacy and child custody occasionally, that's where men get short-changed.`
`06:37.17`	`\|Kev\|`	`Haha. "I see people thinking women are stupid far too often. P.S. Men are illiterate".`
`06:37.31`	`\|Kev\|`	`\o/`
`06:37.54`	`Ophiuchi`	`yeah, that. Because Shakespeare f.e. must have been a woman.`
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`06:38.22`	`dfighter`	`they are not stupid, just better at different things usually`
`06:38.26`	`dfighter`	`in my experience anyways`
`06:38.31`	`Ophiuchi`	`wants a clue bucket to hit people with, occasionally`
`06:38.38`	`Dark_Shikari`	`In my experience there's absolutely no real difference`
`06:38.47`	`kai`	`I didn't see one either`
`06:38.49`	`Ophiuchi`	`dfighter: who 'they'?`
`06:38.51`	`Dark_Shikari`	`I've also never seen harassment of women in open source.`
`06:38.55`	`\|Kev\|`	`Ophiuchi: This was, in case it was not obvious to anyone, a joke.`
`06:38.59`	`dfighter`	`Ophiuchi you females`
`06:39.13`	`Dark_Shikari`	`I have seen stupid people on IRC making dumb comments, but they're idiots, and if they don't stop, they lose their right to stay in the channel.`
`06:39.27`	`dfighter`	`and that's well deserved`
`06:39.27`	`Dark_Shikari`	`I've found such comments more often come from users hanging around than actual devs.`
`06:39.56`	`Ophiuchi`	`dfighter: I'm telling you a big secret: people don't come off a assembly line all identical. Even women don't come off an assembly line all identical.`
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`06:40.07`	`\|Kev\|`	`Dark_Shikari: That was my observation. I've never seen it happen from anyone vaguely involved with OSS, although I see it a lot from people I assume are about 13.`
`06:40.11`	`dfighter`	`Ophiuchi thanks I am aware of that :)`
`06:40.28`	`Dark_Shikari`	`There are two things that have destroyed any stereotypes I had about women "not being as interested in" <list of geeky things>.`
`06:40.32`	`dfighter`	`and I do know geeky females, even females who are way smarter than I am`
`06:40.37`	`Dark_Shikari`	`1) Going to an extremely nerdy college with a near-50% gender ratio`
`06:40.43`	`dfighter`	`so I do know you are a diverse group as well`
`06:40.53`	`Dark_Shikari`	`2) hanging around communities that tend to attract women, and tend to attract nerds`
`06:40.55`	`dfighter`	`just like mankind in general`
`06:41.09`	`Dark_Shikari`	`my conclusion is that there is no discernable difference between men and women when it comes to mental abilities or interests.`
`06:41.18`	`dfighter`	`I'm just saying that in my experiences females tend to be better at arts and social stuff`
`06:41.18`	`Ophiuchi`	`Kev: the sad thruth is that that's used as an excuse why literacy of boys is slipping "they just aren't that made for language".`
`06:41.41`	`ojwb`	`Dark_Shikari: there certainly seems to be more variation within each gender than between them`
`06:41.48`	`Dark_Shikari`	`ojwb: well, that's true of everything.`
`06:41.49`	`Dark_Shikari`	`Races, too.`
`06:41.56`	`Dark_Shikari`	`There's more variation within "white" or "black" than between the two.`
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`06:42.04`	`sagi_`	`hi`
`06:42.15`	`ojwb`	`Dark_Shikari: it seems to not be widely appreciated though`
`06:42.17`	`Dark_Shikari`	`I personally think that any differences that exist are so small as to be meaningless and people should stop trying to think about them.`
`06:42.18`	`sagi_`	`on my proposal page : I am getting two opyions`
`06:42.24`	`sagi_`	`Withdraw proposal`
`06:42.28`	`sagi_`	`Resubmit it`
`06:42.33`	`sagi_`	`What does that mean ?`
`06:42.41`	`dfighter`	`sagi_ they mean what the buttons say`
`06:42.43`	`Dark_Shikari`	`Also, 100% of the people at my school who asked me to meet with them to answer questions about GSOC were female, so, hey.`
`06:42.45`	`dfighter`	`witdraw and resubmit`
`06:42.47`	`sagi_`	`Wasnt it submitted earlier`
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`06:42.57`	`sagi_`	`or is it rejected ?`
`06:43.04`	`sagi_`	`dfighter, ah !`
`06:43.11`	`\|Kev\|`	`07:41 < ojwb> Dark_Shikari: there certainly seems to be more variation within each gender than between them`
`06:43.21`	`ojwb`	`hello?`
`06:43.22`	`\|Kev\|`	`That'd seem to be obvious to most, wouldn't it?`
`06:43.25`	`sagi_`	`dfighter, resubmit !? Is it rejected then .`
`06:43.31`	`Dark_Shikari`	`\|Kev\|: I'd hope so.`
`06:43.37`	`ojwb`	`\|Kev\|: not to NZ TV advertisers it would seem`
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`06:43.43`	`dfighter`	`sagi_ it says the same for everyone pretty much`
`06:43.51`	`sagi_`	`hm,`
`06:43.57`	`dfighter`	`the interface was just changed`
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`06:44.04`	`sagi_`	`dfighter, okay.`
`06:44.15`	`ojwb`	`i think some people were confused by having a "withdraw" button`
`06:44.16`	`sagi_`	`dfighter, so i should click on resubmit button`
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`06:44.27`	`ojwb`	`since that was the action, but they thought it was the current status`
`06:44.32`	`sagi_`	`yes, what for withdraw button !`
`06:44.37`	`ojwb`	`so now we have both withdraw and resubmit`
`06:44.43`	`ojwb`	`with the current state disabled`
`06:44.50`	`sagi_`	`so we should go with resubmit`
`06:44.52`	`ojwb`	`so now everyone is confused`
`06:44.57`	`dfighter`	`ojwb I am not`
`06:44.59`	`mpounta`	`hm so strange`
`06:45.01`	`ojwb`	`sagi_: well, resubmit is disabled, presumably`
`06:45.12`	`sagi_`	`hm`
`06:45.18`	`ojwb`	`unless you already clicked withdraw`
`06:45.18`	`sagi_`	`ojwb, I am`
`06:45.26`	`dfighter`	`I can't even get why others are confused`
`06:45.29`	`ojwb`	`well, I'm not actively confused`
`06:45.35`	`ojwb`	`but I find the current UI less clear`
`06:45.48`	`kai`	`let's bikeshed about that a bit`
`06:45.57`	`ojwb`	`actual radio buttons would be better I think, if we want both states, or checkboxes next to the status`
`06:46.04`	`\|Kev\|`	`Green.`
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`06:46.10`	`sagi_`	`got it.`
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`06:46.20`	`sagi_`	`And why not status !`
`06:46.26`	`kai`	`\|Kev\|: I agree there _are_ differences in how people react to the same thing based on gender`
`06:46.35`	`kai`	`\|Kev\|: and I have http://xkcd.com/385/ to prove it`
`06:46.47`	`kai`	`and I agree that is stupid`
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`06:47.37`	`\|Kev\|`	`kai: As between any group.`
`06:47.38`	`ajedwards`	`http://xkcd.com/327/ <- a favourite of mine`
`06:47.40`	`Dark_Shikari`	`the worst thing is that I've seen it go both ways.`
`06:47.45`	`\|Kev\|`	`It's just statistically likely.`
`06:47.47`	`Dark_Shikari`	`That is, people justifying being bad at X`
`06:47.52`	`Dark_Shikari`	`"because they're female"`
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`06:48.28`	`Dark_Shikari`	`Which is like saying "I'm bad at math because my name starts with an S"`
`06:48.41`	`blacktooth`	`Is it true that proposals can be updated even now if our mentor checks it and allows us to?`
`06:48.55`	`kai`	`blacktooth: yes`
`06:48.56`	`Dark_Shikari`	`I think it depends on the organization. Only some allow it, iirc`
`06:49.01`	`ojwb`	`blacktooth: yes, but you shouldn't automatically expect them to`
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`06:49.06`	`ajedwards`	`blacktooth, it is at a mentor's discretion - if they want you to change it, they may allow you to`
`06:49.19`	`blacktooth`	`okay thanks for the info`
`06:49.19`	`kai`	`Dark_Shikari: I think it's always true if the mentor clicks that button`
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`06:49.37`	`kai`	`Dark_Shikari: of course that decision is completely up to the mentor`
`06:49.43`	`Dark_Shikari`	`of course.`
`06:49.48`	`Ophiuchi`	`Dark_Shikari: and you never had someone too lazy to construct a proper sentence tell you that that's because they are male?`
`06:49.55`	`Dark_Shikari`	`I've never heard that one.`
`06:50.06`	`Dark_Shikari`	`That would, of course, be equally retarded.`
`06:50.29`	`Ophiuchi`	`Dark_Shikari: I guess they wouldn't try to shove off that work on you with that reason.`
`06:51.34`	`Ophiuchi`	`it's the "I can't be bothered to do X because I'm Y" - commonly seen in filling up the wash water of the car, or doing laundry`
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`06:55.46`	`kai`	`durn`
`06:55.49`	`g4ur4v`	`status of the proposal was removed?`
`06:56.18`	`ajedwards`	`yes g4ur4v`
`06:56.59`	`kai`	`I just realize I can't use an example I need without invoking godwin's law again`
`06:57.11`	`Ophiuchi`	`expectin women not to come up with lame excuses that hurt them in the long run is thinking that all women would be smart, and wise .. and having two X confers that as effectively as having an Y :-P`
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`07:04.35`	`\|Kev\|`	`There, I have replied. Let the doom follow.`
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`07:19.45`	`kai`	`sorry if you miss out on the elaborate genetics interpretation of this, but I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness`
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`07:20.31`	`thiago_home`	`a thread that outlives its usefulness? No....`
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`07:21.19`	`SRabbelier`	`chuckles`
`07:22.22`	`Ophiuchi`	`thiago_home: perish the thought`
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`07:34.47`	`Mayank`	`!next`
`07:34.47`	`gsocbot`	`Mayank: "next" is April 22nd: 19:00 UTC - End of reviews, deduplication meeting on IRC`
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`07:41.24`	`LetterRip`	`SRabbelier: another in the infinite list of wishes :) - the ability to see what mentors ranked a proposal and what score - i have a few proposals that have much lower scores than expected (to my view it is a good quality proposal) so I want to ask whoever ranked it down why (if they had ranked it based on a earlier version, or if they have a different insight, or if it is 'less' important, etc.)`
`07:41.40`	`SRabbelier`	`LetterRip: yes`
`07:41.46`	`SRabbelier`	`LetterRip: that's on Daniel's TOOD I think :)`
`07:41.53`	`LetterRip`	`ok cool`
`07:42.03`	`SRabbelier`	`LetterRip: pretty sure it's in the tracker anyway`
`07:42.06`	`SRabbelier`	`will bbl`
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`07:42.18`	`ojwb`	`SRabbelier: is it a known issue that the org filter doesn't stick if you refresh the proposal list btw?`
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`07:51.45`	`LetterRip`	`SRabbelier: so i should have the proposals that are in our 'really want' marked as accepted and a mentor assigned, correct?`
`07:52.06`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`is it only me who finds it rather unclear what "Accept Proposal: Accept Revert" should mean?`
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`07:55.48`	`heoa`	`I submitted my proposal but apparently to wrong window (only wanted to one project), my profile contained the information to the project and the proposal contained the abstract. Now one mentor is saying that I should add something while other mentor does not like the way I submited my proposal. How should I deal with this case? Should I press the withdraw button or is there some other button to move the text to the right place?`
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`07:57.24`	`ajedwards`	`heoa, a mentor can give you permission to edit a proposal, it is at their discretion`
`07:57.26`	`Ophiuchi`	`heoa: ask the org admin if you may edit your proposal. Generally: expect 15 differing opinions out of 12 people commenting`
`07:58.22`	`LetterRip`	`ajedwards: mentor or admin, i think only admins can`
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`07:58.35`	`LetterRip`	`Ophiuchi: heheh`
`07:58.44`	`ajedwards`	`either way, it's up to the organisation`
`07:58.51`	`ajedwards`	`admin would make sense, yes`
`07:58.55`	`heoa`	`Ophiuchi: ajedwards thank you for the information, it is my only proposal so I thought it would 100% clear. Have to comment on it, thanks.`
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`07:59.15`	`diablo`	`!numapps`
`07:59.16`	`gsocbot`	`diablo: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted this year; 5474 proposals were submitted by 3731 students. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted.`
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`08:00.56`	`LetterRip`	`does anyone elses brain automatically think 'NOT' when they see !`
`08:01.23`	`SRabbelier`	`ojwb: it's even on the Changelog emails ;0`
`08:01.29`	`SRabbelier`	`ThomasWaldmann: read the mentor list?`
`08:01.46`	`MatthewWilkes`	`LetterRip: Nah, I mostly see it with 'not'`
`08:01.47`	`Ophiuchi`	`LetterRip: only for leading !`
`08:01.48`	`ajedwards`	`LetterRip, always`
`08:01.51`	`MatthewWilkes`	`hugs python`
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`08:02.29`	`ajedwards`	`i find myself closing parenthesis like a madman when writing, LetterRip`
`08:02.47`	`heoa`	`Ophiuchi: how do I contact the org admin? Is there some link for that? Should I leave a comment under my proposal or how is it done?`
`08:03.06`	`ajedwards`	`heoa, speak to your organisation - IRC / email / through a mentor`
`08:03.18`	`svaksha`	`heoa: isnt it listed on the ideas page of your org?`
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`08:03.33`	`Ophiuchi`	`heoa: I don't know if students can see that info, so comment is probably best`
`08:04.48`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`SRabbelier: yes, right now`
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`08:05.04`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`timing is a bit tight this year`
`08:05.40`	`SRabbelier`	`ThomasWaldmann: focus on the [Announce] ones`
`08:05.48`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`SRabbelier: maybe it would be cleared if it was "Accept" and "Reject" (not "Revert")`
`08:05.58`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`clearer*`
`08:06.14`	`Ophiuchi`	`ThomasWaldmann: but it's not reject but "put back into pending"`
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`08:06.28`	`MatthewWilkes`	`Ophiuchi: And it's not accept, it's plan to accept.`
`08:06.37`	`MatthewWilkes`	`ThomasWaldmann's suggestion makes sense to me`
`08:06.37`	`heoa`	`svaksha: i cannot find that info about administrator, I can only find coordinator`
`08:06.54`	`Ophiuchi`	`off2work`
`08:07.13`	`SRabbelier`	`ThomasWaldmann: you're not rejecting them though`
`08:07.16`	`SRabbelier`	`ThomasWaldmann: you're just un-accepting`
`08:07.21`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`carols mail says you won't get students you did not accept`
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`08:07.43`	`SRabbelier`	`ThomasWaldmann: correct`
`08:08.01`	`rushabhtechie55`	`any guide on project in project fedora`
`08:08.10`	`svaksha`	`heoa: usually the ideas page lists that information. You might also try asking on the list your org uses to communicate.`
`08:08.26`	`oldmonkey`	`Hi guys`
`08:08.59`	`SRabbelier`	`needs to go`
`08:09.03`	`oldmonkey`	`quick question. I'm still using the card from last year ( have some money on it).. It's valid till 2012, right?`
`08:09.12`	`SRabbelier`	`if you need anything, either email me, the list, or file a http://tinyurl.com/new-issue`
`08:09.15`	`oldmonkey`	`So I can keep using it throughout this year?`
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`08:10.28`	`SRabbelier`	`oldmonkey: whatever they last told you is still valid`
`08:10.41`	`oldmonkey`	`they = citibank?`
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`08:11.39`	`SRabbelier`	`oldmonkey: or Carol, or whoever last gave you information about the card and it's validity`
`08:11.43`	`SRabbelier`	`is off now`
`08:11.54`	`oldmonkey`	`Ok. thank you`
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`08:12.41`	`LetterRip`	`SRabbelier: would also be good to see 'tentatively accepted' proposals under the pending`
`08:12.51`	`LetterRip`	`so i can tell which i've marked as 'accepted' already`
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`08:13.10`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`SRabbelier: btw, i personally find that button colouring not that helpful`
`08:13.37`	`MatthewWilkes`	`SRabbelier: I was going to mention that, it looks like a selection, not an active btuton`
`08:14.39`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`if it would just draw a border around the current state, that would be more clear`
`08:15.00`	`MatthewWilkes`	`ThomasWaldmann: Also, patches welcome`
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`08:26.27`	`LetterRip`	`trying to narrow down to the 'amazing' proposals is difficult :) There is a clear cutoff between the really good, and the ok; but amazing and really good difference can be small`
`08:26.57`	`ajedwards`	`I wonder how mine stacked up :/`
`08:27.58`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`LetterRip: i personally wouldn't overrate the choice of words there`
`08:28.24`	`LetterRip`	`ThomasWaldmann: ?`
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`08:29.18`	`MatthewWilkes`	`I'm reading it as max we can handle, and minimum to balance out the effort in going over the proposals`
`08:29.42`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`LetterRip: well, if you don't have amazing ones, but reasonable, well-thought, qualified ones, that counts, too, IMHO`
`08:29.49`	`LetterRip`	`well we have a mentoring capacity of 20+ or so`
`08:29.56`	`LetterRip`	`and about double that many proposals`
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`08:31.08`	`LetterRip`	`ThomasWaldmann: ok`
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`08:33.05`	`ajedwards`	`is there a counter for how many views a proposal has had?`
`08:33.28`	`ThomasWaldmann`	`LetterRip: if some mentors scored already, it should be visible from the score, too`
`08:34.03`	`LetterRip`	`ThomasWaldmann: yes but with 5-20 scorers i won't know who scored what`
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`08:35.49`	`MatthewWilkes`	`ajedwards: Yes, an internal analytics account. This is like a job application, you don't get hints based on how many people read your CV, just be patient.`
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`08:36.41`	`ajedwards`	`i was actually more curious about how much time i've wasted checking and re-checking my own proposal, MatthewWilkes :)`
`08:37.40`	`LetterRip`	`ajedwards: heh`
`08:37.41`	`MatthewWilkes`	`ajedwards: Browser history :)`
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`08:39.56`	`ajedwards`	`MatthewWilkes - ouch, wish i hadn't looked now.`
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`08:46.53`	`MatthewWilkes`	`ajedwards: :D:D`
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`09:02.54`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`is back`
`09:03.13`	`dotnick`	`waves`
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`09:07.16`	`kakazza`	`Upthorn?`
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`09:14.19`	`kakazza`	`?`
`09:14.31`	`dotnick`	`Are the slots assigned to each org going to be announced publicly?`
`09:14.53`	`sonney2k`	`SRabbelier, would it be difficult to add the standard deviation to the average student rating column? It is hard to judge if scores are conflicting otherwise.`
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`09:15.12`	`kai`	`dotnick: not yet, they'er official when the accepted students are announced`
`09:15.36`	`gevaerts`	`sonney2k: but what if the scores are not normally distributed?`
`09:15.37`	`dotnick`	`kai: thanks`
`09:16.11`	`sonney2k`	`gevaerts, so what? At least it is some further indication`
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`09:16.33`	`gevaerts`	`But it would be Wrong!`
`09:16.44`	`gevaerts`	`I see your point though :)`
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`09:20.10`	`sonney2k`	`gevaerts, well one can always compute the standard deviation ...`
`09:20.58`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`sonney2k: yes, it is, we never iterate over all scores`
`09:21.28`	`sonney2k`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy, ok then too bad`
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`10:26.22`	`abhinav-`	`Hi, I see that there is a Resubmit button on the proposal page. What is it for ?`
`10:29.03`	`abhinav-`	`I mean, I can't make changes to my proposal now, then what's the point of resubmitting it ? Or is it to get another round of review after answering the questions of the mentors ?`
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`10:29.48`	`brik`	`if you accidentally pull your application, you can resubmit it`
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`10:33.54`	`socketguru`	`can we make changes to our application?`
`10:34.27`	`\|Kev\|`	`Only if the admin of the org you applied to wants you to.`
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`10:35.50`	`socketguru`	`k`
`10:36.10`	`AKG`	`I just saw on that on my proposal's page, there are two options which were not there previously -> Withdraw, and Resubmit, could anyone tell me what that means?`
`10:36.33`	`kai`	`one of them was there before`
`10:36.44`	`AKG`	`yes withdraw was there.`
`10:36.44`	`kai`	`they do what the buttons say`
`10:36.56`	`kai`	`yeah, the UI is a bit confusing`
`10:37.03`	`AKG`	`when I clicked on resubmit, it said the button is disabled.`
`10:37.10`	`oldmonkey`	`what does resubmit do?`
`10:37.13`	`kai`	`if "withdraw" is orange, that's the active button`
`10:37.27`	`kai`	`oldmonkey: well, it resubmits the proposal if you accidently clicked "withdraw"`
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`10:37.34`	`oldmonkey`	`oh!`
`10:37.57`	`AKG`	`okay. so if I withdraw, will I be able to edit the proposal and then resubmit it, or just submit it again?`
`10:38.56`	`kai`	`afaik, you can only resubmit it, you can only edit if the org allows you to`
`10:39.03`	`AKG`	`Oh, got it. Thanks!`
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`10:44.34`	`ojwb`	`if withdrawing allows edits, that's a major bug I feel`
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`10:45.27`	`kai`	`yeah`
`10:45.44`	`kai`	`but I don't think this is the case`
`10:45.51`	`ojwb`	`no, indeed`
`10:45.59`	`ojwb`	`but it's good to start rumours`
`10:46.27`	`kai`	`anyway, possible or not, I'd consider this cheating :)`
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`10:47.48`	`thirtySeven`	`My proposal used to say 'status: pending'. Now there is no status field there... What could it probably mean?`
`10:48.22`	`kai`	`that a melange update removed that field`
`10:49.04`	`kai`	`or that someone hacked your appspot.com and futzed with your proposal`
`10:49.28`	`kai`	`the probability of the first is pretty close to 1, the probability of the other is pretty close to 0`
`10:49.31`	`thirtySeven`	`I'd prefer the former..`
`10:49.32`	`brik`	`now that's just mean`
`10:49.37`	`thirtySeven`	`:)`
`10:49.59`	`brik`	`I bet you made at least 10 people panic as they were reading that`
`10:50.01`	`kai`	`brik: it sounded like an invitation to brain storm`
`10:50.04`	`LetterRip`	`now someone will hack it just to mess with your probablity statement`
`10:50.22`	`thirtySeven`	`ponders what just started`
`10:51.00`	`kai`	`thirtySeven: I think it was removed because it's pretty much useless`
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`10:51.47`	`kai`	`thirtySeven: last year that field said "pending" during the whole selection process, and turned into "accepted" for people who were accepted and "rejected" for people who weren't`
`10:52.03`	`kai`	`but that was at pretty much the same moment when the results were emailed`
`10:52.25`	`kai`	`so it's not a very interesting field for sure`
`10:53.34`	`LetterRip`	`thirtySeven: your nick doesn't happen to do with a certain kevin smith film does it?`
`10:53.42`	`ojwb`	`kai: I believe it got changed because I went to the trouble of drawing a state diagram to explain it...`
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`10:53.53`	`\|Kev\|`	`LetterRip: Mine has to do with a certain Kevin Smith...`
`10:54.00`	`kai`	`ojwb: url or it didn't happen`
`10:54.30`	`ojwb`	`kai: http://survex.com/~olly/blog/gsoc/gsoc-proposal-status.html`
`10:54.42`	`kai`	`ack, sles doesn't have a python debugger, I always fall for that one`
`10:55.44`	`ojwb`	`perhaps I should draw pictures to explain the things I don't like in melange...`
`10:56.14`	`LetterRip`	`heheh`
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`10:56.36`	`LetterRip`	`or politicians you don't like, or closed source software projects`
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`10:57.04`	`kai`	`LetterRip: let's first see if the experiment is reproduceable with melange issues`
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`10:57.33`	`LetterRip`	`bye all, see ya later`
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`10:57.46`	`ojwb`	`wonders how to illustrate the lack of a diff feature with a drawing`
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`10:58.30`	`ojwb`	`do students no longer see "ignored" then?`
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`10:59.33`	`kai`	`ojwb: a flowchart of the process needed to figure out what changed?`
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`10:59.48`	`ojwb`	`hmm, yeah that might work`
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`11:36.20`	`kai`	`meh`
`11:37.14`	`brik`	`not having a good day?`
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`11:39.48`	`kai`	`brik: having fun trying to debug a borked python script`
`11:39.58`	`kai`	`not getting along with the python debugger`
`11:40.07`	`brik`	`:(`
`11:40.22`	`kai`	`breakpoints seem to work differently`
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`11:40.41`	`kai`	`I suspect the script is stuck in an infinite loop`
`11:41.15`	`gevaerts`	`How can you find out for sure?`
`11:41.34`	`kai`	`so for a C program with gdb, I'd launch, wait a while, and then attach a debugger and break, just to see where I am`
`11:41.40`	`dberkholz`	`i'm still stuck in 'print' land for python debugging`
`11:41.50`	`kai`	`can't seem to make that work for pdb`
`11:41.50`	`dberkholz`	`is the debugger really that much better?`
`11:42.02`	`kai`	`dberkholz: so far, not convinced`
`11:43.13`	`MatthewWilkes`	`kai: you use the set_trace function to drop into the debugger, or post-mortem to drop into it on a fatal exception`
`11:43.25`	`MatthewWilkes`	`What's the problem you're having?`
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`11:45.03`	`kai`	`MatthewWilkes: I set a set_trace() before the start of the loop`
`11:45.12`	`kai`	`I check if the loop condition looks sane.. it does`
`11:45.25`	`kai`	`it's a for i in somelist: ...`
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`11:45.37`	`kai`	`I set a breakpoint inside the loop`
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`11:46.22`	`kai`	`I've already worked around pdb incorrectly guessing the filename of the scriptfile (pdb seems to like $CWD/scriptfile even if that's wrong)`
`11:46.46`	`kai`	`but now "continue" seems to do "next", not continue`
`11:47.21`	`MatthewWilkes`	`kai: eh? as in, the next statement, not the next loop run?`
`11:47.38`	`kai`	`yes`
`11:47.51`	`kai`	`goes back to print statements`
`11:48.21`	`kai`	`at least I know how to use those and they work as documented`
`11:48.24`	`ojwb`	`if you have the skill of knowing where to put it and what to print, it's surprisingly hard to beat`
`11:49.04`	`MatthewWilkes`	`kai: I've never had pdb not work correctly, I'd love to see the code and the pdb output`
`11:50.10`	`kai`	`MatthewWilkes: can't publish the code yet, the paper is still in review :/`
`11:50.21`	`MatthewWilkes`	`kai: right`
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`11:50.28`	`kai`	`these are the days when I hate programming in academia`
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`11:58.13`	`dberkholz`	`has better things to do than convince one stubborn person on the mentors list`
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`12:00.26`	`ojwb`	`if only everyone did!`
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`12:03.31`	`gangil`	`!next`
`12:03.32`	`gsocbot`	`gangil: "next" is April 22nd: 19:00 UTC - End of reviews, deduplication meeting on IRC`
`12:03.43`	`gangil`	`!deadline`
`12:03.44`	`gsocbot`	`gangil: "deadline" is 19:00 UTC April 22nd, for mentors, countdown clock: http://bit.ly/fkFFIX`
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`12:05.22`	`gevaerts`	`!lifeline`
`12:05.23`	`gsocbot`	`gevaerts: "lifeline" is Here, have a cookie and some coffee`
`12:06.09`	`*** join/#gsoc pr0ton (~pratik@triband-mum-59.183.0.220.mtnl.net.in)`
`12:06.49`	`\|Kev\|`	`?learn lifeline as Let's ask the audience!`
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`12:10.51`	`gevaerts`	`\|Kev\|: no cookies?`
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`12:11.11`	`\|Kev\|`	`?learn lifeline as Phone a friend! Now with extra cookies.`
`12:11.31`	`MatthewWilkes`	`\|Kev\|: You mean ! not ?`
`12:11.39`	`\|Kev\|`	`MatthewWilkes: I most certainly mean ? not !`
`12:11.51`	`ojwb`	`I think he isn't actually trying to add factoids`
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`12:11.54`	`MatthewWilkes`	`ah`
`12:12.01`	`jrabbit`	`http://imgur.com/VpT7c`
`12:12.06`	`MatthewWilkes`	`dislikes this`
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`12:14.44`	`*** join/#gsoc Talad (~myself@planeshift/director/Talad)`
`12:14.46`	`Talad`	`Hi`
`12:14.54`	`ajedwards`	`the !@? changes so frequently it might be worth using $ :p`
`12:15.02`	`Talad`	`if I click on "ignore this proposal" will that status be seen by the student?`
`12:15.10`	`\|Kev\|`	`Yes.`
`12:15.14`	`ajedwards`	`Talad, status are no longer seen by students`
`12:15.23`	`Talad`	`mmm`
`12:15.24`	`ajedwards`	`\|Kev\|, status label was removed`
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`12:15.38`	`\|Kev\|`	`Oh. I thought it was only removed if it was Pending.`
`12:15.45`	`ajedwards`	`:s`
`12:15.50`	`ajedwards`	`now I'm confused! lol`
`12:15.53`	`ojwb`	`withdrawn now seems to be shown with a button pair`
`12:15.56`	`ajedwards`	`SRabbelier will know`
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`12:16.17`	`ojwb`	`ajedwards: we'll just mark your proposal as ignored, and you can check for us`
`12:16.30`	`ajedwards`	`ojwb, which org are you?`
`12:16.30`	`ajedwards`	`lol`
`12:16.35`	`*** join/#gsoc mayanks43 (~Marcus@180.215.236.240)`
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`12:17.00`	`mayanks43`	`those four buttons on my app :O`
`12:17.11`	`DanKluev`	`\|Kev\|: http://code.google.com/p/soc/source/detail?r=5b5727663f seems like removed for all cases`
`12:17.38`	`\|Kev\|`	`DanKluev: Ta.`
`12:17.52`	`ojwb`	`ajedwards: mostly xapian, also debian`
`12:17.58`	`ojwb`	`is collecting the ian orgs`
`12:18.18`	`ajedwards`	`ahh lol`
`12:18.41`	`\|Kev\|`	`ojwb: I wonder if that means I should try and get you to include Swift in Debian :D`
`12:19.23`	`\|Kev\|`	`(No, I haven't looked to see what the procedure is, I shall do so at some point, it was in jest)`
`12:19.42`	`mayanks43`	`withdrawing resubmitting still allowed 0.o`
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`12:20.08`	`ojwb`	`\|Kev\|: I might be up for sponsoring it if there's somebody up for maintaining it, but better to ask me in about a month`
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`12:22.32`	`\|Kev\|`	`ojwb: Ooh, in that case I might, thanks.`
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`12:34.31`	`dberkholz`	`i swear, some people go out of their way to make a bad impression.`
`12:35.18`	`ojwb`	`dberkholz: wasn't me, it was like that when I got here`
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`12:40.45`	`kai`	`dberkholz: they're just upset because their free pony has the wrong color`
`12:40.57`	`kai`	`let's all bikeshed about the color it should have instead`
`12:41.27`	`MatthewWilkes`	`BLACK`
`12:42.10`	`kai`	`jumps`
`12:42.18`	`kai`	`no need to yell`
`12:42.29`	`MatthewWilkes`	`Some little snots called the black ponies were blocking my way home yesterday :)`
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`12:42.39`	`MatthewWilkes`	`:)`
`12:42.53`	`kai`	`how am I supposed to sleep..er...I mean work with all that yelling?`
`12:43.27`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`!learn read as If you are an organization administrator (or even a mentor), please read all [Announce] emails that are sent to the mentors list.`
`12:43.27`	`gsocbot`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.`
`12:43.37`	`Ivanovic`	`already said that the color doesn't matter`
`12:43.46`	`Ivanovic`	`the meat quality does though...`
`12:43.47`	`Ivanovic`	`^^^`
`12:44.03`	`MatthewWilkes`	`!learn SRabbelier\|Lappy as unprivileged`
`12:44.04`	`gsocbot`	`MatthewWilkes: "SRabbelier\|Lappy" is unprivileged`
`12:44.14`	`kai`	`haha`
`12:44.20`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`what happen? 0.O`
`12:44.23`	`Ivanovic`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: btw something crab_ (one of "my" mentors at wesnoth) just pointed something out regarding melsange`
`12:44.26`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`kai: gimme`
`12:44.27`	`kai`	`I swear I didn't add code to discriminate against SRabbelier\|Lappy`
`12:44.28`	`*** join/#gsoc tudle (~tudle@85.187.225.26)`
`12:44.30`	`kai`	`yet...`
`12:44.32`	`kai`	`;)`
`12:44.33`	`Ivanovic`	`[14:31:35] <Crab_> btw, a shame for melange - in some cases, it's possible to reasonably guess that a student has several proposals, by trying various urls and observing the error message`
`12:44.34`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`Ivanovic: to #melange`
`12:44.49`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`Ivanovic: that's fine`
`12:44.52`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`Ivanovic: don't do that`
`12:44.54`	`ojwb`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: The "\|" I suspect`
`12:44.56`	`Ivanovic`	`[14:44:19] <Crab_> I will, later (or maybe submit a patch to do something about it for next year). it doesn't matter much now, and there are know statistical issues related to it.`
`12:45.04`	`Ivanovic`	`[14:44:38] <Crab_> i.e., you can't test everyone to see how things are going, because you will get false positives due to deleted stuff.`
`12:45.04`	`nishmu`	`Did the update button got removed after the recent UI change?`
`12:45.08`	`kai`	`!read`
`12:45.15`	`Ivanovic`	`(that is: i told him to report it to you)`
`12:45.20`	`MatthewWilkes`	`it's hardly a secret that there are other proposals though, surely?`
`12:45.24`	`MatthewWilkes`	`You get notified later anyway`
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`12:45.31`	`kintec_`	`!whoami`
`12:45.31`	`gsocbot`	`kintec_: I don't recognize you.`
`12:45.34`	`kintec_`	`;(`
`12:45.35`	`kai`	`!learn read as If you are an organization administrator (or even a mentor), please read all [Announce] emails that are sent to the mentors list.`
`12:45.36`	`gsocbot`	`kai: "read" is If you are an organization administrator (or even a mentor), please read all (announce <text>) -- Sends <text> to all channels the bot is currently on and not lobotomized in. emails that are sent to the mentors list.`
`12:45.39`	`MatthewWilkes`	`!whoami`
`12:45.40`	`gsocbot`	`MatthewWilkes: I don't recognize you.`
`12:45.42`	`MatthewWilkes`	`:O`
`12:45.44`	`kintec_`	`:D`
`12:45.46`	`kai`	`ah`
`12:46.03`	`kai`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: you just found a bug in supybot`
`12:46.33`	`kai`	`!forget read`
`12:46.34`	`gsocbot`	`kai: The operation succeeded.`
`12:46.43`	`MatthewWilkes`	`[14:46:32] <gsocbot> You've given me 12 commands within the last minute; I'm now ignoring you for 5 minutes.`
`12:46.44`	`encolpe`	`hellais,`
`12:46.44`	`MatthewWilkes`	`:(`
`12:46.46`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`kai: the question is, can you fix it?`
`12:46.49`	`encolpe`	`hello`
`12:46.51`	`MatthewWilkes`	`hi encolpe`
`12:47.06`	`kai`	`!learn read as If you are an organization administrator (or even a mentor), please read all "Announce" emails that are sent to the mentors list.`
`12:47.07`	`gsocbot`	`kai: "read" is If you are an organization administrator (or even a mentor), please read all Announce emails that are sent to the mentors list.`
`12:47.30`	`nishmu`	`Could anyone clarify whether the "Update" proposal button got removed (due to recent ui change) from proposal page, or is it that the admin has disabled it for my org`
`12:47.49`	`kai`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: ok, so here's my current estimate of this, without having had a look at the code`
`12:47.52`	`ojwb`	`kai: hmm, it likes to mangle text doesn' tit`
`12:48.03`	`kai`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: [] is used to nest commands`
`12:48.11`	`gevaerts`	`nishmu: as a student?`
`12:48.11`	`kintec_`	`hah`
`12:48.15`	`nishmu`	`gevaerts: yes`
`12:48.18`	`kai`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: nested commands are executed before the !learn is evaluated`
`12:48.20`	`brik`	`nishmu: I think you can only update it if your org has approved it`
`12:48.33`	`kai`	`instead of just escaping all that stuff`
`12:48.41`	`ojwb`	`kai: it also just threw away "" too`
`12:48.51`	`gevaerts`	`nishmu: updates aren't enabled or disabled globally per organisation. Mentors can allow updates of specific proposal though`
`12:48.56`	`kai`	`ojwb: yeah, that's probably the escaping not doing the right thing`
`12:49.14`	`kai`	`ojwb: patches welcome ;)`
`12:49.17`	`encolpe`	`MatthewWilkes: Dalsh and Yannis are taking exams these days`
`12:49.28`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`kai: lol, awesome`
`12:49.29`	`nishmu`	`brik: no actually I was able to update my proposal just fine till yesterday. but then suddenly yesterday the pending statyus got removed (due to some changes to melagne).`
`12:49.47`	`kai`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: not sure if I can easily fix it`
`12:49.49`	`ojwb`	`kai: perhaps in a month or so...`
`12:49.53`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`nishmu: someone in your org disabled it`
`12:50.01`	`ojwb`	`is off to the UK on thursday`
`12:50.03`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`nishmu: ask them if thye can re-enable editing if it was accidental`
`12:50.14`	`MatthewWilkes`	`encolpe: Poor buggers`
`12:50.24`	`nishmu`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: Alright, thanks.`
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`12:50.30`	`kai`	`ojwb: fair enough, I'll probably have a github repo with my changes by then`
`12:51.04`	`jay_t`	`there are new buttons added to my proposal page for withdraw/resubmit....does that mena i can still edit?`
`12:51.11`	`jay_t`	`mean*`
`12:51.18`	`encolpe`	`MatthewWilkes: I will ask them IRL to answer to your questions`
`12:51.29`	`kai`	`jay_t: not that I'm aware`
`12:51.34`	`ojwb`	`jay_t: no, those mean you can withdraw and resubmit it`
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`12:51.47`	`kai`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: what says you?`
`12:51.47`	`nishmu`	`jay_t: Do you still see an update button?`
`12:51.53`	`MatthewWilkes`	`encolpe: They get notification emails, I know Dalsh has got his as I checked with him (mine were delayed so I wanted to be sure)`
`12:52.22`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`jay_t: we just moved those from the proposal update page`
`12:52.34`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`jay_t: so that students can withdraw/resubmit even if they're not allowed to edit`
`12:52.57`	`encolpe`	`MatthewWilkes: their proposition are independant but the VIE integration seems less interrresting if the stanbol one is not done`
`12:53.39`	`jay_t`	`ok...`
`12:53.47`	`MatthewWilkes`	`encolpe: If you want to comment on this it's best to do it in the webapp so everyone can see.`
`12:53.52`	`jay_t`	`nishmu: no theres no update button`
`12:54.38`	`kai`	`!update`
`12:54.39`	`nishmu`	`jay_t: Were you able to see update before the changes of resubmit etc were added?`
`12:55.00`	`jay_t`	`no..not after the deadline..there was no option to update`
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`12:55.23`	`kai`	`!learn update as You can only update your proposal if your org explicitly allows you to update your proposal.`
`12:55.23`	`gsocbot`	`kai: "update" is You can only update your proposal if your org explicitly allows you to update your proposal.`
`12:55.35`	`kai`	`!resubmit`
`12:55.36`	`mayanks43`	`an orange button means it can be activated?`
`12:55.39`	`MatthewWilkes`	`!whoami`
`12:55.40`	`gsocbot`	`MatthewWilkes: YoMamma`
`12:55.41`	`encolpe`	`MatthewWilkes, I want they explain their proposition first, then if needed I will add precise details like jensens can do`
`12:55.41`	`MatthewWilkes`	`:D:D:D`
`12:55.44`	`nishmu`	`jay_t: alright. I got my confusion cleared. Its just that ym org disabled update just at the time when these ui changes were addded`
`12:56.20`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`nishmu: that's what I said from teh start ;)`
`12:56.33`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`!edit`
`12:56.33`	`gsocbot`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: "edit" is (#1) You can edit your proposal up until the application deadline on April 8th, 19:00 UTC., or (#2) Comments on proposals however, can _not_ be edited after submitting., or (#3) Mentors can allow students to edit proposals on a case-by-case basis after the deadline has expired.`
`12:56.41`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`kai: 3rd clause`
`12:57.02`	`nishmu`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: Yep :)`
`12:57.03`	`MatthewWilkes`	`encolpe: I want them to explain their proposition too. Kevin's in charge this year, but as a mentor I'd be very, very uncomfortable with anyone being accepted who can't explain their proposal in ways that any plone developer can't understand.`
`12:57.06`	`ojwb`	`!edit 3`
`12:57.08`	`kai`	`!learn resubmit as You can resubmit your proposal if you accidently clicked "withdraw". Withdrawing and resubmitting doesn't allow you to modify your proposal`
`12:57.08`	`gsocbot`	`kai: "resubmit" is You can resubmit your proposal if you accidently clicked withdraw . Withdrawing and resubmitting doesn't allow you to modify your proposal`
`12:57.14`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`!fix`
`12:57.14`	`gsocbot`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: "fix" is Send SRabbelier an email from the account you used for GSoC. Include your link_id and your desired status change. His email is his nick at gmail.`
`12:57.18`	`ojwb`	`hmm, that doesn't work then`
`12:57.24`	`dberkholz`	`!cookies`
`12:57.30`	`MatthewWilkes`	`!cookie \| dberkholz`
`12:57.30`	`gsocbot`	`dberkholz: "cookie" is omnomnom`
`12:57.42`	`kai`	`I think to get the numbered ones, you need to use !whatis`
`12:57.42`	`ojwb`	`ah`
`12:57.42`	`dberkholz`	`aha, it does exist`
`12:57.42`	`MatthewWilkes`	`!this cookie \| dberkholz`
`12:57.42`	`gsocbot`	`dberkholz: "this cookie" is for you`
`12:57.54`	`kai`	`which doesn't have the redirection code so far`
`12:58.06`	`dberkholz`	`i didn't realize it did piping`
`12:58.20`	`ojwb`	`!learn that as a good question`
`12:58.20`	`gsocbot`	`ojwb: "that" is a good question`
`12:58.21`	`kai`	`dberkholz: it does since I added it last sunday`
`12:58.22`	`MatthewWilkes`	`'tis new`
`12:58.27`	`dberkholz`	`kai: rock on`
`12:58.55`	`kai`	`dberkholz: it's very useful :)`
`12:59.00`	`jay_t`	`so..basically i have to click resubmit only if i have withdrawn right? nothing to be pressed now if i want it to remain?`
`12:59.11`	`kai`	`!orange`
`12:59.40`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`jay_t: yes`
`12:59.56`	`kai`	`!learn orange as the color used to mark an active button in melange. Clicking an orange button performs the action written on the button.`
`12:59.57`	`gsocbot`	`kai: "orange" is the color used to mark an active button in melange. Clicking an orange button performs the action written on the button.`
`13:00.02`	`kai`	`!blue`
`13:00.18`	`dberkholz`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: btw, i'm looking at that timestamp data now. two obvious patterns so far; the daily rhythm and a continuous increase in proposals/minute for the last 5 hours.`
`13:00.33`	`kai`	`!learn blue as the color used to mark an inactive button in melange. No need to click it. Also see !orange`
`13:00.34`	`gsocbot`	`kai: "blue" is the color used to mark an inactive button in melange. No need to click it. Also see !orange`
`13:00.37`	`kai`	`there`
`13:01.03`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`dberkholz: cool :D`
`13:01.07`	`*** join/#gsoc ankitdaf-m (~androirc@202.177.236.152)`
`13:01.08`	`dberkholz`	`apparently 5 hours is the point at which students feel like it's close enough to the deadline to submit`
`13:01.12`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`kai: nice ^^`
`13:01.21`	`dberkholz`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: could you make the blue even fainter?`
`13:01.22`	`kai`	`hehe`
`13:01.22`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`dberkholz: really? nice`
`13:01.29`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`dberkholz: yes, and remove the mouse pointer :P`
`13:01.30`	`chinthaka`	`hi, I have a issue with my proposal. At the top of the proposal just under the proposal title and my name there are two new options appeared. One is publicly visible in publicly visible there are two buttons a blue button with 'enable' and a orange button with 'Disable'. There is another option called "Withdraw Proposal". Under withdraw proposal there are two buttons, a orange one with 'Withdraw' and blue one with 'Resubmit'. What are these options can`
`13:01.30`	`chinthaka`	`anyone know about them. What I have to do now?`
`13:01.43`	`MatthewWilkes`	`headdesks`
`13:01.55`	`kai`	`!orange \| chinthaka`
`13:01.55`	`gsocbot`	`chinthaka: "orange" is the color used to mark an active button in melange. Clicking an orange button performs the action written on the button.`
`13:02.00`	`jay_t`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: thanks..got it`
`13:02.03`	`*** join/#gsoc gadulix (~gadulix@aagn87.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)`
`13:02.13`	`dberkholz`	`it's a pretty similar contrast to that pale orange, so it's not really obvious that it's "disabled"`
`13:02.27`	`kai`	`MatthewWilkes: talk about instant ROI`
`13:02.54`	`gadulix`	`hi dit sth change in proposal view or is it because of status change ?`
`13:02.58`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`pat pats MatthewWilkes`
`13:03.10`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`kai: win`
`13:03.17`	`gadulix`	`I can't see its status, but there are 2 new options`
`13:03.22`	`kai`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: experimental evidence suggests that your users hate you if you keep changing their UI under their nose :)`
`13:03.27`	`gadulix`	`(public view and withdraw)`
`13:03.35`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`kai: so it would seem`
`13:03.48`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`gadulix: OMG, it changed for you?!`
`13:03.53`	`kai`	`!status`
`13:03.55`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`gadulix: you must be one of the lucky chosen ones!@`
`13:03.57`	`MatthewWilkes`	`slaps SRabbelier\|Lappy`
`13:03.58`	`*** join/#gsoc araujo (~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo)`
`13:04.17`	`MatthewWilkes`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: Do not call people lucky chosen ones while an op. Fool`
`13:04.25`	`MatthewWilkes`	`If you're going to be a dick do it as one of us`
`13:04.27`	`gadulix`	`:) if you are seriuos I am happy :)`
`13:04.40`	`*** join/#gsoc ankit_frenz (~Admin@117.200.225.180)`
`13:04.52`	`kai`	`!learn status as The status line is no longer visible to students because it's largely useless. Don't worry about it.`
`13:04.52`	`gsocbot`	`kai: "status" is The status line is no longer visible to students because it's largely useless. Don't worry about it.`
`13:04.54`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`gadulix: no, sorry, I was being an ass :)`
`13:05.10`	`*** kick/#gsoc [SRabbelier\|Lappy!~kai@samba/team/kai] by kai (stop it! :))`
`13:05.15`	`kai`	`there`
`13:05.18`	`MatthewWilkes`	`indeed`
`13:05.29`	`gadulix`	`:(`
`13:05.29`	`kai`	`!status \| gadulix`
`13:05.30`	`gsocbot`	`gadulix: "status" is The status line is no longer visible to students because it's largely useless. Don't worry about it.`
`13:05.53`	`*** join/#gsoc pwbarnes (~nman64@fedora/nman64)`
`13:06.01`	`kai`	`gadulix: there's no way for anyone to tell if a student is accepted or not until the list of accepted students is announced`
`13:06.15`	`gadulix`	`thanks anyway :)`
`13:06.15`	`*** join/#gsoc SRabbelier\|Lappy (~sverre@msc11.st.ewi.tudelft.nl)`
`13:06.15`	`*** mode/#gsoc [+o SRabbelier\|Lappy] by ChanServ`
`13:06.15`	`ojwb`	`there's no way for the student to`
`13:06.21`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`chuckles`
`13:06.24`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`what did I miss? :P`
`13:06.38`	`ajedwards`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy, oodles of fun, as usual`
`13:06.47`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`:(`
`13:06.52`	`ojwb`	`the best 30 seconds on this channel ever`
`13:07.05`	`kai`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: found the question to life, the universe and everything, but removed it from ibot's logs`
`13:07.54`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`Nooooooooo`
`13:08.09`	`kai`	`but I'm happy to tell you that the answer is 42`
`13:08.16`	`svaksha`	`chuckles`
`13:08.35`	`MatthewWilkes`	`kai: Shouldn't our universe have disappeared and been replaced with something stranger?`
`13:09.11`	`*** join/#gsoc rupinder (~rupinder@122.176.179.79)`
`13:09.17`	`ajedwards`	`hehehe 42 confuses half of the people, makes the other half chuckle`
`13:09.51`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`ajedwards: more fun to those of us who do know`
`13:09.57`	`chinthaka`	`!blue`
`13:09.57`	`gsocbot`	`chinthaka: "blue" is the color used to mark an inactive button in melange. No need to click it. Also see !orange`
`13:10.46`	`idlecool`	`!help`
`13:10.46`	`gsocbot`	`idlecool: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.`
`13:11.14`	`MatthewWilkes`	`ajedwards: Everyone knows it, it's a prerequisite of being a geek`
`13:11.40`	`ajedwards`	`lecturer last year used it in a slide... ~5 people laughed/acknowledged it`
`13:11.40`	`*** join/#gsoc aalvarez (~clsk@tdev151-174.codetel.net.do)`
`13:11.55`	`dberkholz`	`ajedwards: must've been a 10-person class, then`
`13:12.07`	`kai`	`dberkholz: haha`
`13:12.10`	`dberkholz`	`otherwise you need some practice on your fractions`
`13:12.28`	`ajedwards`	`dberkholz, this was before we lost ~75% of the course to failure, we had ~200 in the lecture theatre`
`13:12.54`	`ajedwards`	`the rate at which people fail computer science/software engineering is amazing...`
`13:13.03`	`kai`	`ajedwards: then you should brush up your maths`
`13:13.38`	`MatthewWilkes`	`ajedwards: 5 people laughing at it in a lecture is very different to 5 people knowing about it`
`13:13.44`	`*** join/#gsoc saurabhsood91 (~saurabhso@1.186.10.139)`
`13:13.51`	`kai`	`right, it does get old`
`13:13.52`	`MatthewWilkes`	`It's such a common joke it's rare to laugh at it`
`13:13.53`	`ojwb`	`yeah, the other 20 were probably asleep`
`13:14.06`	`ajedwards`	`5 people acknowledging it when given time to respond MatthewWilkes :)`
`13:14.30`	`MatthewWilkes`	`Did you count people rolling their eyes?`
`13:15.04`	`gevaerts`	`tends to ignore "42" jokes. Many people attempting those tend to miss the fact that the joke really is that the question isn't defined`
`13:15.05`	`ajedwards`	`In future I will. :p`
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`13:31.20`	`ahel`	`!next`
`13:31.21`	`gsocbot`	`ahel: "next" is April 22nd: 19:00 UTC - End of reviews, deduplication meeting on IRC`
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`13:46.28`	`dberkholz`	`SRabbelier: any chance i could convince you to changing average score to median so outliers don't unduly influence it?`
`13:47.00`	`gevaerts`	`wouldn't like that`
`13:47.03`	`kai`	`and could I also get the "range"?`
`13:47.25`	`dberkholz`	`kai: i've been told histograms are on the todo list`
`13:47.32`	`ojwb`	`standard deviation`
`13:47.35`	`kai`	`just make a column for mean, median and range and let users pick`
`13:47.47`	`dberkholz`	`yeah, that'd be perfectly fine.`
`13:47.53`	`kai`	`dberkholz: btw, which version of gnuplot do you have?`
`13:48.09`	`dberkholz`	`4.5 cvs, so i get boxplots`
`13:48.26`	`ojwb`	`the script worked for me on 4.4`
`13:48.39`	`dberkholz`	`it should work on most recent ones, i think kernel-density estimates have been in there for a while`
`13:48.51`	`kai`	`didn't work for me on 4.2`
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`13:50.15`	`dberkholz`	`4.4 has been out for a year now, it's about time to upgrade`
`13:50.23`	`*** join/#gsoc rupinder (~rupinder@122.173.244.174)`
`13:51.31`	`MatthewWilkes`	`kai: I've had to be artificially voting too high or too low to balance out absurd averages`
`13:51.39`	`MatthewWilkes`	`crazy :)`
`13:52.20`	`dberkholz`	`yeah, i'm looking forward to seeing who scored what so i can ask them what in the world they were thinking`
`13:52.33`	`dberkholz`	`scoring 2/11 on a real, pretty good proposal?`
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`13:55.28`	`gevaerts`	`dberkholz: that was MatthewWilkes, trying to correct the average :)`
`13:55.41`	`diablo`	`!logs`
`13:55.42`	`gsocbot`	`diablo: "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/`
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`13:57.15`	`greeniekin`	`anyone know what time the slots are released?`
`13:57.32`	`*** join/#gsoc laserbled (~laserbled@117.196.166.211)`
`13:57.33`	`greeniekin`	`well initial slots. I know they will change`
`13:57.44`	`kintec_`	`greeniekin, are you a mentor or a student?`
`13:58.04`	`kintec_`	`Anyway, Carol mentioned "on pacific business close time" in her mail.`
`13:58.06`	`MatthewWilkes`	`greeniekin: Not before the end of day in PST today`
`13:58.09`	`gevaerts`	`!later \| greeniekin`
`13:58.09`	`gsocbot`	`greeniekin: "later" is when`
`13:58.19`	`gevaerts`	`Or possibly "when" :)`
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`13:58.31`	`greeniekin`	`gevaerts, lol. nice i like that`
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`13:58.39`	`gevaerts`	`!when \| greeniekin`
`13:58.39`	`gsocbot`	`greeniekin: "when" is later`
`13:58.45`	`BlankVerse`	`!apps`
`13:58.48`	`gevaerts`	`Just to keep you in the loop :)`
`13:58.57`	`greeniekin`	`MatthewWilkes, thank you`
`13:59.45`	`gevaerts`	`!numapps \| BlankVerse`
`13:59.45`	`gsocbot`	`BlankVerse: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted this year; 5474 proposals were submitted by 3731 students. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted.`
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`14:28.14`	`thebolt`	`Hi`
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`14:30.54`	`kai`	`hey thebolt`
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`14:36.57`	`wf_`	`!log`
`14:36.58`	`gsocbot`	`wf_: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.`
`14:37.11`	`tomprince`	`!logs \| wf_`
`14:37.12`	`gsocbot`	`wf_: "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/`
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`14:37.37`	`wf_`	`thanks`
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`14:40.21`	`thebolt`	`kai: how's things?`
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`14:54.34`	`sbose78`	`Hello, Shall we recieve feedback from our feedback mentors soon?`
`14:54.46`	`sbose78`	`*feedback = prospective`
`14:55.51`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy`	`!learn log as http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/`
`14:55.55`	`gsocbot`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: "log" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/`
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`14:57.57`	`tomprince`	`sbose78: announcements won't happen until the 25th`
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`15:00.08`	`kai`	`SRabbelier\|Lappy: one problem with that:`
`15:00.11`	`kai`	`!log`
`15:00.12`	`gsocbot`	`kai: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.`
`15:00.28`	`kai`	`only this one works`
`15:00.31`	`kai`	`!whatis log`
`15:00.31`	`gsocbot`	`kai: "log" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/`
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`15:03.37`	`sbose78`	`tomprince: I'm not talking about announcements. I'm talking about feedback`
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`15:05.13`	`tomprince`	`you likely won't get any feedback until then.`
`15:05.20`	`gevaerts`	`tomprince: why?`
`15:05.27`	`gevaerts`	`That very much depends on the organisation`
`15:06.12`	`tomprince`	`perhaps it would be better to say, don't expect any feedback until then.`
`15:07.04`	`gevaerts`	`You should try to be involved in the organisation of course`
`15:07.54`	`tomprince`	`certainly, it depends on the organisation. but I suspect that anybody asking here hasn't heard anything.`
`15:08.39`	`tomprince`	`Telling them that that is not unexpected should alleviate some of their worry.`
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`15:10.00`	`sbose78`	`tomprince: I like your understanding nature :)`
`15:14.21`	`in3xes`	`!logs`
`15:14.22`	`in3xes`	`!log`
`15:14.22`	`gsocbot`	`in3xes: "logs" is http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/`
`15:14.23`	`gsocbot`	`in3xes: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.`
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`15:35.22`	`sumanah`	`!numapps`
`15:35.22`	`gsocbot`	`sumanah: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted this year; 5474 proposals were submitted by 3731 students. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted.`
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`15:39.13`	`nickbarnesccf`	`How many Google staffers run GSoC? It seems like a mammoth undertaking.`
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`15:40.09`	`sumanah`	`nickbarnesccf: There's Carol + some other folks at their open source programs office`
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`15:40.32`	`sfb`	`kai: ping`
`15:40.34`	`sfb`	`kblin: ping`
`15:40.40`	`LetterRip`	`i've seen carol and chris mentioned`
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`15:42.57`	`David_Honeynet`	`nickbarnesccf: is is a small team, smaller than you probably imagine (and kudos to them for making it appear otherwise) ;-)`
`15:43.09`	`nickbarnesccf`	`have reviewed all our proposals today. There's gold in them thar hills.`
`15:43.26`	`nickbarnesccf`	`what's the Bus Factor?`
`15:44.23`	`LetterRip`	`nickbarnesccf: was up till 4am making sure had proper mentors assign to all critical proposals (well ok, and bsing with the parts of our dev team half around the world that i chat with less than i'd like :) )`
`15:44.53`	`dberkholz`	`nickbarnesccf: assuming you mean the usual definition, it's asking how a project will survive if you're hit by a bus.`
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`15:45.22`	`nickbarnesccf`	`dberkholz: I know. I was asking what GSoC's bus factor is.`
`15:46.01`	`dberkholz`	`look at how many people post to the mentors list from @google.com and it'll give you a good clue`
`15:47.10`	`dberkholz`	`i'm aware of about 5 people working on it to various extents`
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`15:54.57`	`naeg`	`what does the 'resubmit' button at my proposoal actually do?`
`15:55.09`	`Nei`	`undo witdraw`
`15:55.31`	`naeg`	`ahh, so a light blue in the background means that button is inactive?`
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`16:02.17`	`sbose78`	`exit`
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`16:21.28`	`Talad`	`will the volume of emails in the mailing list remain the same as now for the next 4 months?`
`16:21.52`	`Talad`	`if that's the case I think we need one just for announce and logs`
`16:22.20`	`Talad`	`it seems more a blog than a mailing list to mentors really`
`16:22.40`	`gevaerts`	`Probably not`
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`16:22.57`	`Talad`	`I didn't get yet if people just want to show-off on it`
`16:23.08`	`gevaerts`	`Expect another burst around midterm, and then one at the end`
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`16:24.49`	`LetterRip`	`Talad: that is a good idea to have a seperate 'announce' only list`
`16:25.04`	`LetterRip`	`that can't recieve replys`
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`16:31.07`	`Talad`	`LetterRip: yes, I will just subscribe to that one, and unsub from the current one`
`16:31.31`	`Talad`	`and maybe read the archives of the current one when I have free time`
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`16:32.16`	`LetterRip`	`Talad you can sorta create what you want by just a filter that is set to see only carols and SRabbelier emails`
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`16:37.15`	`ihalip`	`!timeline`
`16:37.15`	`gsocbot`	`ihalip: "timeline" is http://goo.gl/PFsjs`
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`17:13.14`	`LetterRip`	`For Blender we have a new release schedule, each new release to be within days of the previous release - however, the reference planet for the day can vary :)`
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`17:17.31`	`vikash`	`Hello Everyone!`
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`17:18.59`	`benste`	`hi there - the status field dissapeared in my dashboard proposal view - I'm now able to withdraw / resubmit it - where can i see the current status ?`
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`17:19.33`	`tomprince`	`benste: There is no status yet.`
`17:19.57`	`benste`	`tomprince: but there was a status "pending" yesterday`
`17:20.34`	`tomprince`	`Yes, but everybody was pending, so they just hid it, to avoid questions.`
`17:20.42`	`brik`	`benste: it was removed to avoid confusion, the status will stay at pending until the 25th anyway`
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`17:20.49`	`tomprince`	`(and now everybody is asking why it disappeared) :)`
`17:20.56`	`ajedwards`	`lols`
`17:21.03`	`benste`	`tomprince: thanks for the clarification`
`17:21.06`	`g4ur4v`	`25 or 22`
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`17:21.48`	`gevaerts`	`25`
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`17:25.26`	`tomprince`	`The decisions should be made among organisations on the 22, but won't be made public until the 25. (As far as I can tell.`
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`17:31.25`	`lezard`	`did google already decided the slots for each organization ?`
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`17:33.09`	`tomprince`	`lezard: tentative assigments by the end of day.`
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`17:35.37`	`saksham`	`will they be declared today?`
`17:35.46`	`saksham`	`or anytime before 25th?`
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`17:37.02`	`gevaerts`	`You mean publicly? The 25th`
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`17:37.20`	`lezard`	`i just mean how many slots`
`17:37.24`	`lezard`	`for each organization`
`17:37.26`	`lezard`	`not the names =P`
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`17:38.02`	`gevaerts`	`The number is only final when all names are assigned`
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`17:38.21`	`lezard`	`so there is a flexibility on the final numbers?`
`17:38.28`	`lezard`	`interesting, never knew that =D`
`17:38.34`	`LetterRip`	`it is only final final, when the first check is mailed :)`
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`17:39.42`	`gevaerts`	`LetterRip: don't forget the review after ten years!`
`17:41.17`	`gevaerts`	`lezard: duplicate students can cause changing numbers`
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`17:47.19`	`dmoctezuma`	`Hi there, just asking... in Melange it now appears to be some buttons at the top of the proposal page: Publicly visible: enable/disable, Withdraw proposal: withdraw/resubmit. What does it mean?`
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`17:50.53`	`tomprince`	`!resubmit \| dmoctezuma`
`17:50.53`	`gsocbot`	`dmoctezuma: "resubmit" is You can resubmit your proposal if you accidently clicked withdraw . Withdrawing and resubmitting doesn't allow you to modify your proposal`
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`17:53.07`	`dmoctezuma`	`tomprince: thanks!`
`17:53.12`	`dmoctezuma`	`!time`
`17:53.12`	`gsocbot`	`dmoctezuma: "time" is has come, the walrus said, to speak of other things.`
`17:53.14`	`DarthGandalf`	`Blue is confusing color for disabled buttons and at the same time active state`
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`17:53.56`	`gevaerts`	`gives a grammar handbook to gsocbot`
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`18:05.47`	`carols`	`serves tea and cookies`
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`18:06.26`	`tomprince`	`We need a factoid to explain the new buttons and lack of status display.`
`18:06.42`	`gevaerts`	`eats tea and drinks cookies`
`18:06.48`	`gevaerts`	`Wait, that can't be right...`
`18:06.59`	`gevaerts`	`drinks tea and eats cookies`
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`18:07.24`	`sfb`	`gevaerts: It could be right.`
`18:07.38`	`LetterRip`	`well... if you freeze the tea, then blender it to a frozen ice cream like treat; and grind cookies to a slurry`
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`18:07.51`	`LetterRip`	`the first could be right :)`
`18:08.05`	`gevaerts`	`That's not something I'd do to carols' cookies!`
`18:08.05`	`sfb`	`gevaerts: My full-blooded Irish grandmother cooked everything until you could eat it with a straw and made her tea so hot and strong you could drink it with a fork.`
`18:08.06`	`LetterRip`	`then you could claim to be a modern chef`
`18:08.07`	`saksham`	`letterrip looks like you have nothing to do`
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`18:08.25`	`LetterRip`	`saksham: actually in the middle of a blender release :)`
`18:08.26`	`carols`	`thanks for looking out for my cookies, gevaerts :-)`
`18:08.36`	`gevaerts`	`carols: they deserve it! :)`
`18:08.39`	`saksham`	`:D`
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`18:10.33`	`hjain`	`How many applications are sumbitted this year for gsoc??`
`18:10.50`	`tomprince`	`!numapps \| hjain`
`18:10.50`	`gsocbot`	`hjain: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted this year; 5474 proposals were submitted by 3731 students. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted.`
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`18:12.11`	`saksham`	`more proposals, lesser students...`
`18:12.19`	`LetterRip`	`saksham: we can finally start to merge the rest of the gsocs from last year - we've had a freeze for almost a year`
`18:13.29`	`gevaerts`	`I'd hope that while there are indeed fewer students, they're not lesser...`
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`18:18.58`	`Jake85`	`nobody talking?`
`18:19.25`	`Jake85`	`a`
`18:19.25`	`Jake85`	`c`
`18:19.27`	`Catfish_Man`	`an astute observation`
`18:19.49`	`Jake85`	`lol`
`18:20.08`	`thebolt`	`well, as soon as the comment was made it made itself false ,)`
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`18:21.22`	`Jake85`	`yeah...but seriously a few hundred people here and there's no activity?`
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`18:21.34`	`cjosephcon`	`how does one withdraw an application?`
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`18:21.53`	`Jake85`	`there's a withdraw button`
`18:22.01`	`Catfish_Man`	`Jake85: that's normal for irc`
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`18:22.25`	`Catfish_Man`	`most of them probably aren't actually here`
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`18:22.43`	`Jake85`	`catfish: really? didnt know that...never been on irc in a long time`
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`18:37.46`	`rryan`	`Carol said put up your slot allocations by "EOD tomorrow" -- does that mean the April 12, 23:59 mountain-view time ?`
`18:38.03`	`rryan`	`17:00 mountain view time?`
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`18:39.12`	`carols`	`mlankhorst: you around?`
`18:39.19`	`carols`	`rryan: 23:59 UTC.`
`18:39.23`	`carols`	`today.`
`18:39.30`	`mlankhorst`	`carols: yeah`
`18:39.35`	`carols`	`mlankhorst: pm>`
`18:39.36`	`carols`	`?`
`18:39.39`	`mlankhorst`	`k`
`18:39.43`	`rryan`	`carols : great, thanks !`
`18:40.12`	`ravenlock`	`carols: hi. Any chance you have a moment to talk with me?`
`18:40.14`	`*** part/#gsoc rryan (~rryan@MIXXX.MIT.EDU)`
`18:40.25`	`carols`	`ravenlock: sure`
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`18:41.01`	`ravenlock`	`carols: Was hoping for some insight into Enlightenment not making it in this year. Would pm be most appropriate?`
`18:41.09`	`carols`	`ravenlock: sure`
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`18:46.02`	`tomprince`	`:q`
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`18:59.11`	`ak\|ra`	`carols: "Can we please call this a dead horse and go on with reviewing proposals" .. thank you very much :)`
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`18:59.24`	`carols`	`ak\|ra: you're welcome :-)`
`18:59.40`	`ak\|ra`	`noise vs signal ratio is very bad on the gsoc-ml ... imho.`
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`18:59.54`	`carols`	`ak\|ra: i agree.`
`19:00.41`	`ak\|ra`	`i am mostly '#' the stuff right away, and caught "hey, orgs, you should assign the slots til today" by accident due this ..`
`19:00.47`	`AlexP`	`ak\|ra: I don't think you'll find many disagreeing with that`
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`19:01.10`	`Talad`	`ak\|ra: totally agree`
`19:01.27`	`Talad`	`It's getting more chit chat and information`
`19:01.34`	`dberkholz`	`i really wouldn't mind a separate mentors announce list. tagging the subject is nice, but also easy to forget`
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`19:01.58`	`Talad`	`a separate list for announce / change log is the best idea`
`19:02.18`	`dberkholz`	`SRabbelier: around?`
`19:02.19`	`ak\|ra`	`i dont care about changelog. i care about the useless meta-discussions about life in general.`
`19:02.46`	`Talad`	`we call it "discussing about the gender of angels" in Italy :)`
`19:02.52`	`ak\|ra`	`people seem to think that ml is a reddit/hn - replacement.`
`19:03.22`	`gevaerts`	`Talad: that's strangely appropriate :)`
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`19:10.27`	`dfighter`	`"morning!" (9pm)`
`19:11.04`	`dberkholz`	`Talad: here it's about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin`
`19:11.24`	`ayust`	`dfighter: that's what UGT is for (http://www.geekality.net/2010/05/14/universal-greeting-time-ugt/)`
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`19:11.59`	`Talad`	`dberkholz: cool one`
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`19:12.27`	`Talad`	`I think it's 12 angels anyway... :)`
`19:12.29`	`dfighter`	`ayust nice :)`
`19:12.51`	`Talad`	`btw is this the only gsoc channel?`
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`19:13.14`	`Talad`	`I will be interested in having a more general chat channel where we can meet the other devs and just speak about our projects`
`19:13.22`	`Talad`	`like a #gsoc-pub`
`19:13.23`	`Ophiuchi`	`Talad: the canonical answer is either "none" or "all of them"`
`19:14.13`	`Ophiuchi`	`Talad: re #gsoc-pub: too dangerous as a time sink :-P`
`19:14.25`	`Talad`	`a channel were gsoc mentors/admins can chat about their projects without interfering with this channel`
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`19:14.42`	`Talad`	`Ophiuchi: I'm there already :)`
`19:14.57`	`Talad`	`I agree on the time sink`
`19:15.23`	`ak\|ra`	`it does not matter if you label the time sink differently`
`19:15.32`	`ak\|ra`	`be it -ml, or #gsoc or #gsoc-whatever`
`19:15.47`	`ak\|ra`	`its still a time sink.`
`19:16.56`	`ayust`	`very true.`
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`19:21.18`	`Talad`	`!numapps`
`19:21.18`	`gsocbot`	`Talad: "numapps" is 417 mentoring orgs applied and 175 were accepted this year; 5474 proposals were submitted by 3731 students. In 2010, 367 mentoring orgs applied and 151 were accepted; 5539 proposals were submitted by 3464 students, and 1026 were accepted.`
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`19:24.26`	`ak\|ra`	`carols: the ml for the younglings is called "gsoc-veterans" ?`
`19:24.39`	`carols`	`ak\|ra: yes, that's it's short name.`
`19:25.22`	`ak\|ra`	`rookies get to the veterans ml? :)`
`19:25.27`	`carols`	`ak\|ra: yes.`
`19:25.32`	`ak\|ra`	`strange name :)`
`19:26.01`	`carols`	`ak\|ra: oh well :-)`
`19:26.06`	`gevaerts`	`ak\|ra: well, it's expected that some veterans will be there to help out`
`19:26.26`	`gevaerts`	`Sit around the fire and talk about the good old days, that sort of stuff`
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`19:26.53`	`ak\|ra`	`gevaerts: so you dont see the logical conflict? :)`
`19:26.56`	`gevaerts`	`Calling it gsoc-rookies might well scare those away :)`
`19:27.15`	`gevaerts`	`ak\|ra: it's a place for the newcomers to ask the veterans for help, so no :)`
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`19:27.19`	`ak\|ra`	`"oh noes, its just for veterans" .. ups, same result.`
`19:27.43`	`gevaerts`	`Except I think they might be automatically subscribed`
`19:27.48`	`gevaerts`	`isn't sure`
`19:27.56`	`carols`	`gevaerts: no, just sent an invite.`
`19:28.01`	`gevaerts`	`Ah, ok`
`19:28.12`	`gevaerts`	`Well, good enough to let them know what it is :)`
`19:28.26`	`carols`	`gevaerts: indeed. you can lead a horse to water... :-)`
`19:28.39`	`gevaerts`	`Actually, I've never tried that!`
`19:28.41`	`dberkholz`	`carols: wanna see another graph?`
`19:28.42`	`ak\|ra`	`but not if you label it "beer" :)`
`19:28.56`	`carols`	`dberkholz: of course!`
`19:28.59`	`gevaerts`	`Oh, graphs!`
`19:29.04`	`gevaerts`	`<3 graphs!`
`19:29.08`	`AlexP`	`has lead horses to water`
`19:29.11`	`ak\|ra`	`"look horse, there is beer .. beer is for cowboys (and -girls!) so .. drink" :)`
`19:29.17`	`AlexP`	`And they didn't always drink`
`19:29.36`	`gevaerts`	`Did they make you drink though?`
`19:29.37`	`AlexP`	`So I feel I both helped out (some of the) horses, and investigated a saying`
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`19:30.08`	`gevaerts`	`Spoken as a true scientist!`
`19:30.16`	`AlexP`	`:)`
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`19:30.29`	`AlexP`	`Having said that, I didn't try to force them`
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`19:32.59`	`vegard`	`what's wrong with the discussions going on over at the mentor list?`
`19:34.07`	`carols`	`vegard: there's too many of them :-)`
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`19:37.07`	`Nightrose`	`too many of them and not really useful`
`19:37.31`	`Nightrose`	`is amazed by people who see a "don't post in this thread anymore" and still do`
`19:38.37`	`\|Kev\|`	`Nightrose: I've had delivery sync issues with the gsoc lists a few times, so there's a window after 'stop' where people may have reasonably not seen it.`
`19:38.44`	`vegard`	`to be honest I enjoyed reading the discussion about women`
`19:38.52`	`\|Kev\|`	`(I've had the start of threads delayed several hours after replies)`
`19:39.01`	`Nightrose`	`\|Kev\|: ok - fair enough`
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`19:39.25`	`Nightrose`	`vegard: but it wasn't going anywhere and not adding anything that hasn't been discussed a few 100 times in more appropriate venues`
`19:39.40`	`Nightrose`	`if you want to read more about it google for geekfeminism`
`19:39.53`	`Nightrose`	`they have useful tips and analysis`
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`19:40.12`	`vegard`	`but I want to hear what the _gsoc_ people think about it`
`19:40.48`	`Nightrose`	`geekfeminisms also had a few articles related to gsoc fwiw ;-)`
`19:41.01`	`gevaerts`	`vegard: but do all 3000 other subscribers want to hear about it?`
`19:41.07`	`gevaerts`	`isn't sure of the actual number`
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`19:41.47`	`carols`	`gevaerts: # subscribed to the mentors list?`
`19:41.57`	`dberkholz`	`i keep hearing 6000 mentioned`
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`19:42.03`	`gevaerts`	`carols: the exact number doesn't really matter I think :)`
`19:42.06`	`vegard`	`probably not. but there's filtering and labelling, etc.`
`19:42.27`	`Nightrose`	`those only help sp much`
`19:42.30`	`Nightrose`	`*so`
`19:42.37`	`gevaerts`	`You can filter lists, but you can't easily filter inside lists`
`19:42.59`	`Nightrose`	`especially if you depend on important information on said list`
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`19:44.01`	`\|Kev\|`	`Given a competent mail client, I'm finding it's not hard to ignore threads once they reach a low SNR, mind.`
`19:44.14`	`\|Kev\|`	`I grant my throughput may be lower than other people's`
`19:44.19`	`vegard`	`well, I think filtering is your own responsibility on the internet. if we removed everything from the web that wasn't interesting to me personally, you'd probably miss a lot.`
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`19:44.37`	`gevaerts`	`vegard: the web isn't a good comparison`
`19:44.39`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: hey, i'm really curious if that graphing script i posted the other day shows anything interesting for you`
`19:45.02`	`gevaerts`	`\|Kev\|: yes, that helps, but there's still a decent risk of missing important stuff`
`19:45.07`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: the one for how many slots to request?`
`19:45.11`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: yep`
`19:45.28`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: how much work is it? can i do it in less than 15 minutes?`
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`19:45.39`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: you can do it in 1 minute if you send me a dumped .csv =P`
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`19:45.44`	`Nightrose`	`haha`
`19:45.57`	`Nightrose`	`i'm not sure that's ok but would make it easier indeed`
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`19:46.11`	`\|Kev\|`	`Our scoring is all over the place this year. We've basically been working off mentor comments instead of scores.`
`19:46.12`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: well, if you have gnuplot 4.4 in your distro then it's trivial`
`19:46.20`	`dberkholz`	`if you don't, it's more work`
`19:46.30`	`Nightrose`	`let me look`
`19:46.46`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: i'm sure sending the csv would be fine if you just included score columns, no identifiers`
`19:47.01`	`dberkholz`	`but that means you have to bug me again if you ever want an update.`
`19:47.25`	`\|Kev\|`	`dberkholz: clearly you need to set up graphmygsoc.org`
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`19:47.40`	`Nightrose`	`yes!`
`19:47.43`	`dberkholz`	`loves data viz`
`19:47.56`	`Nightrose`	`ok - on the one i have 4.2.something`
`19:48.00`	`Nightrose`	`checks the other one`
`19:48.38`	`Nightrose`	`4.4.0`
`19:48.40`	`Nightrose`	`\o/`
`19:48.43`	`Nightrose`	`ok - let's see`
`19:50.23`	`dberkholz`	`\|Kev\|: i think there's some statistics module in the works for melange`
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`19:52.20`	`mlankhorst`	`Nightrose: geekfeminism ftw`
`19:52.26`	`Nightrose`	`:)`
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`19:53.00`	`mlankhorst`	`awesomesite, but I wish it wasn't needed :(`
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`19:53.13`	`Nightrose`	`indeed`
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`19:53.23`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: i want to plot the average or score column?`
`19:53.28`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: average`
`19:53.31`	`Nightrose`	`k`
`19:55.36`	`dberkholz`	`alright. T-minus-15 at 19:48, anc counting.`
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`19:55.42`	`dberkholz`	`and*`
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`19:57.22`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: http://lydiapintscher.de/tmp/kde_score.svg <- this seems unuseful`
`19:58.13`	`wtachi`	`nice and smooth, though`
`19:58.18`	`Nightrose`	`heh`
`19:58.26`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: oh, you probably want to drop the last number since you're using such a tiny range`
`19:58.48`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: meaning? (sorry - late and i'm tired)`
`19:59.29`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: in the line "u 5:(1.0):(0.25)", try changing the 0.25 to 0.1, maybe even 0.05`
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`19:59.45`	`Nightrose`	`k`
`19:59.50`	`dberkholz`	`this is essentially half the width of a "bin"`
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`20:00.12`	`dberkholz`	`if you imagine it being a really smart histogram`
`20:00.23`	`Nightrose`	`gotcha`
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`20:01.51`	`dberkholz`	`so with a 3-point range, you can imagine how grouping 0.5 points worth together might not show you any interesting differences`
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`20:02.34`	`dberkholz`	`but 0.1 points (by using a bandwidth value of 0.05) could do something cool.`
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`20:03.50`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: http://lydiapintscher.de/tmp/kde_score2.svg http://lydiapintscher.de/tmp/kde_score3.svg`
`20:03.55`	`Triskelios`	`I'm slightly confused as to how to interpret the April 15th timeline item, "Mentoring Organizations make initial student rankings" - isn't it strongly recommended for project rankings to have been finalised long before then? what is the significance of that date?`
`20:04.46`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: that last one is starting to look useful.`
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`20:04.55`	`Nightrose`	`hehe`
`20:05.03`	`Nightrose`	`ok what are you seeing?`
`20:05.12`	`\|Kev\|`	`Peaks.`
`20:05.15`	`\|Kev\|`	`Also: troughs.`
`20:05.17`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: looking like around ~2.1 or ~2.45 would be good cutoffs (valleys)`
`20:05.25`	`Nightrose`	`pokes \|Kev\| :P`
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`20:05.40`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: ok let me look if that fits our slot request`
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`20:06.17`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: i'm curious how many people are in that super-high area of ~2.85 and above`
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`20:06.54`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: 12 above 2.8.5`
`20:06.55`	`\|Kev\|`	`Nightrose: If you were grouping into N groups based on score similarity, you'd likely pick the N - 1 biggest troughs as the cut-off points.`
`20:06.55`	`Nightrose`	`eh`
`20:07.00`	`Nightrose`	`2.85`
`20:07.12`	`Nightrose`	`\|Kev\|: i see - ok`
`20:07.23`	`Nightrose`	`anyway - checking where our cut-off is - one sec`
`20:07.29`	`\|Kev\|`	`Nightrose: So if you want groups of 'the best', 'the good', and 'the rest', picking a couple of deep-looking troughs near the top is sensible.`
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`20:07.44`	`dberkholz`	`depending on your cutoff for amazing, i'd either put it at 2.85 or roughly 2.45, with your desired slots at 2.45 or 2.1`
`20:08.26`	`\|Kev\|`	`This feels awfully like classifying students based on 1-dimensional KNN :)`
`20:08.29`	`dberkholz`	`the basic idea is that it's weird to call something amazing when another proposal 0.01 away is not amazing, so you should try to cluster things.`
`20:08.36`	`dberkholz`	`yeah, it is a simplistic cluster.`
`20:08.52`	`dberkholz`	`feel free to do the real thing`
`20:09.01`	`dberkholz`	`maybe using one of this year's gsoc orgs, orange or shogun`
`20:09.10`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: ok our upper slot number is at 2.0 and our lower slot number is at 2.57`
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`20:09.19`	`ajedwards`	`do all orgs put as much effort into selecting their desired students as you guys seem to?`
`20:09.33`	`\|Kev\|`	`Nightrose: 2.0 would be a really strange (statistically) cutoff.`
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`20:09.43`	`Nightrose`	`\|Kev\|: heh might be but it is ;-)`
`20:09.44`	`\|Kev\|`	`Assuming, of course, infinite mentoring resource.`
`20:09.56`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: yeah, you can see from looking at this how you're slicing very similar groups of students right in half`
`20:09.57`	`gevaerts`	`ajedwards: I'd expect that those who expect 3 or 4 slots don't do advanced statistics to figure out who they want :)`
`20:09.58`	`Nightrose`	`we pretty much have no shortage there`
`20:10.01`	`\|Kev\|`	`Given that group, 1.9ish is much more sensible, or 2.05ish.`
`20:10.54`	`dberkholz`	`natural points would be about 1.9, 2.1, 2.45, 2.85`
`20:11.01`	`\|Kev\|`	`Right.`
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`20:11.02`	`dberkholz`	`assuming you've got mentors to cover that`
`20:11.04`	`Nightrose`	`ajedwards: hopefully - but likely not`
`20:11.31`	`Nightrose`	`interesting`
`20:11.49`	`ajedwards`	`hmm... I haven't seen IRC or mailing list activity regarding Gsoc from either of the orgs I submitted to in the end`
`20:12.05`	`Nightrose`	`well what we did basically is ask each subproject to look at their proposals and give me a list of students they want, really want and definitely don't want`
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`20:12.18`	`Nightrose`	`and a upper and lower slot count`
`20:12.37`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: if you start a gnuplot prompt rather than passing the .gp file to it, and don't put the top two lines about svg, you can get an interactive plot that you can actually scroll over to get the right numbers for each valley.`
`20:12.37`	`\|Kev\|`	`Nightrose: Of course, all this statistics lark is assuming that you can use score as a measure.`
`20:12.40`	`\|Kev\|`	`Which you clearly can't.`
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`20:12.58`	`Nightrose`	`the sum of those for all teams are our requests`
`20:13.09`	`\|Kev\|`	`Or as a measure of desire for students.`
`20:13.15`	`Nightrose`	`which i fear are awefully high but we've got really good proposals this year`
`20:13.24`	`\|Kev\|`	`Right, that system is more sensible than playing the statistics game for you, I think.`
`20:13.27`	`Nightrose`	`in general i am super happy that the proposal quality is a lot better`
`20:13.54`	`Nightrose`	`wonder if that is because of something we did inside the org or if it is a general thing`
`20:13.58`	`dberkholz`	`sure. all this is saying is that either they aren't scoring in a way that matches that trinary choice, or they aren't picking things very well`
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`20:14.13`	`Nightrose`	`yeah`
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`20:14.21`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: seems pretty general to me. i'd say close to 2/3 of our non-spam proposals are fundable`
`20:14.30`	`\|Kev\|`	`FWIW, while our excellent choices are the highest scored ones across the org, the 'want' ones aren't.`
`20:14.31`	`Nightrose`	`nice`
`20:14.42`	`\|Kev\|`	`dberkholz: Similar.`
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`20:14.56`	`\|Kev\|`	`Halfish, anyway.`
`20:15.03`	`dberkholz`	`maybe everyone's just adding enough requirements to filter well`
`20:15.15`	`Nightrose`	`we have not added any`
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`20:15.41`	`\|Kev\|`	`Nightrose: Maybe not, but as a rule there's more good advice available for students now than a few years ago.`
`20:15.47`	`Nightrose`	`but i have traveled to india to talk to a lot of students who later applied and we've provided example applications`
`20:15.49`	`dberkholz`	`Nightrose: it would be interesting for you to go back to your sub-groups and ask them whether the stuff at 2.0-2.1 is noticeably worse than the others they asked for`
`20:15.54`	`\|Kev\|`	`I know of a great blog series about GSoC dos and don'ts, for example :)`
`20:16.17`	`Nightrose`	`dberkholz: indeed - but i fear my mentors will kill me if i ask them for anything more in the next 2 weeks :D`
`20:16.22`	`Nightrose`	`\|Kev\|: :P`
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`20:25.16`	`tibbe`	`I'm a bit confused by the timeline: by what date do we have to assign mentors (not express a wish to be a mentor)?`
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`20:42.16`	`carldani`	`hi`
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`20:43.23`	`dberkholz`	`tibbe: my current understanding from the timeline is that it's 0700 utc on april 22`
`20:44.09`	`dberkholz`	`tibbe: seems that things changed in the past day or so; previously you had to have mentors assigned in the next few hours for slot assignment to work, but carols just said that she'd look at total mentors, not assigned ones.`
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`20:45.36`	`David_Honeynet`	`anyone able to confirm what time today UTC the amazing/desired numbers requested by each org will be considered final?`
`20:46.00`	`David_Honeynet`	`is EOD 12th 17:00 PST, midnight UTC, etc`
`20:46.46`	`dberkholz`	`18:37 < rryan > Carol said put up your slot allocations by "EOD tomorrow" -- does that mean the April 12, 23:59 mountain-view time ?`
`20:46.49`	`dberkholz`	`18:39 < carols@> rryan: 23:59 UTC.`
`20:47.13`	`ajedwards`	`2h13mins then`
`20:47.36`	`David_Honeynet`	`thanks guys`
`20:48.10`	`hypatia`	`oh crap, i need to get them in before my final then`
`20:48.17`	`hypatia`	`goes to poke at melange`
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`21:15.58`	`tibbe`	`dberkholz: ok, I was scrambling to assign mentors`
`21:16.09`	`tibbe`	`dberkholz: got the #awesomes #desired sorted though`
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`21:27.42`	`ryan007`	`any1 applied for freedroidrpg...`
`21:27.44`	`ryan007`	`?`
`21:27.50`	`gevaerts`	`!anyone \| ryan007`
`21:27.51`	`gsocbot`	`ryan007: "anyone" is Instead of looking for mentors from specific projects here, you will likely get much better results by speaking to that mentoring organization themselves. Try searching for the org's contact info or even just try a /join #<mentoring org here>`
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`21:34.14`	`dberkholz`	`gevaerts: next step is to enable piping via query so people don't know who it came from =)`
`21:34.26`	`gevaerts`	`Yes, indeed!`
`21:34.52`	`dberkholz`	`<PROTECTED>`
`21:34.59`	`dberkholz`	`kai: ^^ =)`
`21:35.01`	`ojwb`	`then you'll get novice students trying to PM the bot for more info`
`21:35.24`	`ojwb`	`so it'll need to not just ignore PMs it doesn't understand`
`21:35.32`	`dberkholz`	`perhaps its first response to a query should be "hi, i'm an automated bot."`
`21:35.45`	`kblin`	`dberkholz: patches welcome`
`21:35.59`	`ojwb`	`politely explaining it isn't a human and that PM without invitation isn't good would probably do the job`
`21:36.02`	`dberkholz`	`kblin: i'm busy making graphs =)`
`21:36.30`	`ojwb`	`dberkholz: and the step after than is for the bot to automatically answer...`
`21:36.42`	`ojwb`	`and then ... skynet`
`21:37.07`	`kblin`	`yay`
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`21:38.27`	`dberkholz`	`sure, just a simple hmm-based textual analysis`
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`21:47.56`	`kblin`	`anyway, SIGWIFE, see you folks tomorrow`
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`21:56.36`	`mlankhorst`	`wife now? :P`
`21:57.17`	`vegard`	`the mentor list got very quiet :-P`
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`21:57.49`	`ayust`	`my inbox is appreciative of this fact`
`21:57.50`	`ayust`	`:P`
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`23:05.01`	`stefanct`	`there is one thing i did not get yet regarding the acceptance process. how does google decide how many slots a mentoring org gets? i know they can request slots, but there are probably more requests than google wants to sponsor. how do they decide then?`
`23:06.36`	`ojwb`	`!slots \| stefanct`
`23:06.36`	`gsocbot`	`stefanct: "slots" is Slot allocation is done manually by Chris DiBona and Carol Smith, be a good org, play nice on the mentor list and #gsoc, ask for a non-crazy-high number of slots, and you'll probably get what you ask. Note that non-crazy-high for new orgs is around 1 or 2.`
`23:08.48`	`stefanct`	`thank you`
`23:11.14`	`ojwb`	`if you're the org admin, go and read Carol's recent email to the mentor list`
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`23:11.58`	`carldani`	`SRabbelier: The current UI is really awesome!`
`23:12.05`	`ojwb`	`I think you are meant to set the two slot numbers by midnight UTC, i.e. ~48 minutes time`
`23:12.12`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: yay, thank you!`
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`23:14.28`	`carldani`	`SRabbelier: The javascript code in the dashboard is killing the browser of my older machine, but that's life. The individual proposal pages are what I'm really happy about. Easy to use, and a huge improvement over the situation a few days ago, and IMHO also better than what we had the years before.`
`23:14.39`	`carldani`	`SRabbelier: Please pass on my thanks to the other Melange developers.`
`23:14.44`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: glad to hear that :D`
`23:14.47`	`SRabbelier`	`I will`
`23:14.52`	`carldani`	`great`
`23:15.02`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: Madhu worked hard on improving the individual proposal page, he'll appreciate the feedback`
`23:15.26`	`carldani`	`SRabbelier: And the changelog on the mailing list is pretty useful.`
`23:15.41`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: ah, thanks, glad you like it`
`23:15.51`	`SRabbelier`	`wasn't sure whether people apprecaited it or felt it was spammy`
`23:16.16`	`ojwb`	`SRabbelier: it's useful`
`23:16.35`	`ojwb`	`unless it sparks a huge discussion thread each time`
`23:16.36`	`SRabbelier`	`ojwb: cool, thanks`
`23:16.39`	`SRabbelier`	`hehe`
`23:16.57`	`carldani`	`I expect changelogs to appear less often in the future because most pressing Melange issues seem to be fixed now.`
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`23:17.04`	`ojwb`	`SRabbelier: is it feasible to indicate in the "select a mentor" drop down which mentors are already assigned?`
`23:17.13`	`ojwb`	`or perhaps even how many times they are assigned`
`23:17.46`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: soundsl ikely`
`23:17.50`	`ojwb`	`hmm, did somebody tweak the colour scheme for the "off" buttons to be duller`
`23:18.03`	`SRabbelier`	`ojwb: not unless madhu deployed a release... checks`
`23:18.07`	`ojwb`	`if so, it's clearler`
`23:18.28`	`SRabbelier`	`nope`
`23:18.30`	`SRabbelier`	`same as yesterday :)`
`23:18.43`	`ojwb`	`i guess it's less sunny today, or I'm more used to them`
`23:19.07`	`ojwb`	`SRabbelier: any thoughts on the "already assigned" indication?`
`23:19.18`	`ojwb`	`if it's not feasible, I won't waste everyone's time with a ticket`
`23:20.08`	`carldani`	`SRabbelier: I hereby issue the Melange team a speeding ticket for the huge development speed over the past few days. ;-)`
`23:20.08`	`ayust`	`tickets are not generally heavy time investments`
`23:20.09`	`SRabbelier`	`it would require a datastore change`
`23:20.16`	`ayust`	`after all, it's fairly easy to mark them "wontfix"`
`23:20.19`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: heh, dont' remind me`
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`23:23.25`	`carldani`	`SRabbelier: do you know if google-summer-of-code-mentors-list@googlegroups.com has been retired? Carol's announcement read like pretty much every mentor/admin related GSoC question should be asked on gsoc-veterans`
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`23:23.51`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: the veterans list is for new orgs with newbie questions :)`
`23:23.58`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: the regular list is there for... everythign else :)`
`23:24.23`	`dfighter`	`mostly for confused people to post`
`23:24.26`	`dfighter`	`because they can't read`
`23:24.28`	`ojwb`	`and the melange bug tracker is there for reported melange issues`
`23:24.29`	`dfighter`	`or something`
`23:24.41`	`carldani`	`SRabbelier: Ah ok, so I misunderstood. I just wondered why my mail about expected polling time for the list did not get through, and assumed the list had been closed.`
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`23:24.59`	`ojwb`	`i think carols turned on moderation`
`23:25.11`	`SRabbelier`	`dfighter: hehe, no lie`
`23:25.24`	eoc`	`SRabbelier: any insights on the url guessing brought up earlier today? we don't ask for whether students applied multiple times to ensure fair judgement and now we basically know that some students have submitted their first proposal at other orgs. hope I can still hide it from my rating mentors`
`23:25.24`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: not at all`
`23:25.50`	`SRabbelier`	eoc`: it's not something we (or at least I) worry about
`23:26.12`	`*** join/#gsoc arthursribeiro (~arthur@189.71.55.5)`
`23:26.16`	`SRabbelier`	eoc`: but that's me, you can ask Carol if you care
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`23:26.37`	`ojwb`	`we like to know if they've applied elsewhere, so we can discuss and decide upon an appropriate number of "spare" proposals`
`23:26.43`	`carldani`	`SRabbelier: ok, I'll wait until my mail gets through.`
`23:27.01`	`ojwb`	`it doesn't (and shouldn't) influence our decisions on which to go for`
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`23:27.17`	`SRabbelier`	`agrees with ojwb`
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`23:27.59`	`ojwb`	`if you ask their preference up front too, it also avoids having to either ignore their preference or tip them off that they have a place, should a conflict emerge`
`23:28.15`	`ojwb`	`though I can see that's more problematic for people trying to ignore the information`
`23:28.52`	eoc`	`sure, it should in theory not influence decisions, but will students in advance tell orgs "you're not my first choice" when they might have better chances to be chosen still? I could understand students not being completely honest there at least`
`23:30.22`	`dfighter`	eoc` may I ask why this matters?
`23:30.23`	`stefanct`	`"not ... completely honest". the word you are looking for is lying. just my 2ct`
`23:30.31`	`dfighter`	`out of simple curiosity`
`23:30.37`	`dfighter`	`I myself only applied to 1 org`
`23:30.45`	`dfighter`	`that I've been involved with for some time`
`23:30.52`	`dfighter`	`so it doesn't affect me anyhow`
`23:30.56`	`dfighter`	`just curios`
`23:31.08`	eoc`	`stefanct: well, I wasn't looking for it, but thanks ;-)`
`23:31.13`	`dfighter`	`I mean if the student has the skills, and the motive to work for you`
`23:31.20`	`dfighter`	`motivation*`
`23:31.21`	`ojwb`	`fwiw, we haven't been asking that, though some have said they prefer us voluntarily. They can of course tell us what they think we want to hear, but they may not then get their choice if that's used to pick which org they go to...`
`23:31.50`	`ojwb`	`i don't think anyone has yet said they prefer the other org, though several haven't specified`
`23:31.59`	eoc`	`I would like this trouble to only happen when we actually need to decide between orgs and not far in advance`
`23:32.52`	`ojwb`	`which they applied to first is probably a hint`
`23:32.55`	`carldani`	`"I want to program linux driver CD so it looks like Windows program" <-- the complete proposal of one student. Our org has nothing to do with Linux or Windows....`
`23:33.18`	`carldani`	`nor drivers nor CDs.`
`23:33.23`	`dfighter`	`lol`
`23:33.23`	eoc`	`dfighter: not sure, some mentors might feel better rejecting one of the equally rated proposals when they know this student has some other application still. I think that's not fair, not much more concerns`
`23:33.25`	`ojwb`	`I've seen less well thought out proposals`
`23:33.45`	eoc`	`I see that completely modifying the URL (introducing $user/$org/$no instead of $user/$no) is something I can't claim to happen instantly now, but it's at least worth a thought imho`
`23:35.42`	`dfighter`	eoc` then we agree
`23:35.44`	`carldani`	`$no is 5001 for one of our students. Did he really send 5001 proposals?`
`23:35.46`	`dfighter`	`it doesn't seem fair`
`23:36.05`	`ojwb`	`carldani: it seems to usually number them 1, 1001, 2001, ...`
`23:36.10`	`ojwb`	`but not always`
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`23:41.20`	`carldani`	`ojwb: thanks, this confirms my suspicions that this student just copy-pasted his proposal for a competing org (he forgot to search/replace their name in a few places in his proposal)`
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`23:41.55`	`stefanct`	`wtf :)`
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`23:42.34`	`ojwb`	`we had one which looked like a reasonable first attempt, but if you changed the title and changed the handful of mentions of the project name, it would fit any org`
`23:42.39`	`ojwb`	`was almost impressed`
`23:44.02`	`carldani`	`ojwb: One of his deliverables was: "Documentation of code and produce it to the specification given in the document."`
`23:45.07`	`dfighter`	`senses a lack of effort`
`23:45.09`	`carldani`	`He didn't even need to change a single word for most of his development plan.`
`23:46.45`	`carldani`	`And the fun question we ask each student to fill out in the GSoC application: "Did you already test our code in an emulator (qemu) or on hardware?" We got "No" as an answer from many prospective students.`
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`23:47.06`	`*** mode/#gsoc [+o Catfish_Man] by ChanServ`
`23:47.14`	`carldani`	`hey Catfish_Man`
`23:47.21`	`Catfish_Man`	`'lo carldani`
`23:47.55`	`ojwb`	`carldani: I've now learned not to ask questions in the template which accept a yes/no answer`
`23:48.01`	`ojwb`	`well, unless that's all you want`
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`23:49.24`	`carldani`	`ojwb: we had a "please send a log file of a run of our software to the mailing list" question.`
`23:50.00`	`SRabbelier`	`carldani: clever :)`
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`23:55.21`	`arma`	`"Check this field if you want to disable private reviews for student proposals which have been sent to your organization." is the description for "Scoring disabled". what does it have to do with private reviews?`
`23:55.33`	`arma`	`i fear it will do something i don't want. :)`
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`23:57.45`	`ojwb`	`arma: I think it's just badly described`
`23:58.06`	`ojwb`	`scoring used to be linked to private reviews`
`23:59.39`	`carldani`	`SRabbelier: thanks!`
`23:59.53`	`arma`	`ojwb: so if i unclick it, i can score reviews, and the scores will stay private from the students?`

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