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| 06:36.04 | thebolt | Morning |
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| 07:13.39 | qrng | Morning. |
| 07:13.52 | qrng | Stupid Citi prepaid services. :-X Citi never sleeps my arse. |
| 07:14.03 | qrng | Citi may never sleep, does not work, either. |
| 07:14.05 | thebolt | hi qrng .. haha :) |
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| 07:14.54 | qrng | Pardon my French, btw. |
| 07:15.25 | thebolt | no offence taken on my part at least :) |
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| 07:20.08 | kblin | morning folks |
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| 07:30.23 | qrng | Can any Americans here call Citi? |
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| 07:33.53 | thebolt | hi kblin , how od oyu do today? |
| 07:33.58 | thebolt | do you* |
| 07:34.22 | qrng | Oh, they can be reached through Skype for free, yay. |
| 07:35.14 | qrng | I cannot believe Citi. After using Danske and SEB ebanking systems, I simply cannot understand how people in the US can put up with such nonsense. |
| 07:36.14 | kblin | qrng: less bad than other banks? |
| 07:36.21 | kblin | thebolt: can't complain |
| 07:37.49 | qrng | kblin: You would think laissez faire means free market competition. :-X |
| 07:37.59 | qrng | And Americans, IMO, are all about free market. |
| 07:39.33 | kblin | qrng: we're talking about a country where there's still lots of people sending cheques around per snail mail |
| 07:39.56 | thebolt | or handing them over in person to the landlord :P |
| 07:42.00 | qrng | o_O |
| 07:42.14 | qrng | Does anyone do this at these times and these days? |
| 07:42.21 | thebolt | yes |
| 07:42.33 | thebolt | i had a friend living in US last year who had to do that.. |
| 07:42.55 | thebolt | and well, I count on that I might have to do it in cash during next year in Taiwan ;) |
| 07:43.07 | qrng | Oh. |
| 07:44.38 | qrng | And then I remember seeing a picture which illustrated your typical american's understanding about world order. The US were marked as the centre of the world, and instead of Europe there was a hazy blob marked "Here be drangonz". |
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| 07:45.07 | qrng | *dragonz, that is. |
| 07:45.54 | qrng | And I distinctly remember that one of them had the audacity to ask whether there is electricity in Europe and loos inside. |
| 07:46.14 | qrng | Ironic, really. |
| 07:47.44 | thebolt | is pretty sure we had the second at least a few hundred years before US was founded as a country.. |
| 07:48.06 | qrng | the latter |
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| 09:07.46 | kblin | ahrg! |
| 09:07.59 | kblin | two-space indent in my code... |
| 09:08.02 | kblin | grr |
| 09:08.15 | kblin | goes to look for a larger cluebat |
| 09:08.46 | MatthewWilkes | kblin: Use 3 tabs! |
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| 09:09.37 | ihalip | haha |
| 09:11.08 | MatthewWilkes | Urrrgh, I want my SSD |
| 09:11.49 | MatthewWilkes | Testing the caching rules of this site are so painful, just tons of pagefile churn |
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| 09:25.26 | kblin | sighs |
| 09:25.38 | kblin | ok, the speed of the predictor is ruined as well |
| 09:26.10 | thebolt | "friendly" co-workers helping out? ;) |
| 09:26.30 | kblin | yeah |
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| 09:32.11 | kblin | my old version took 40s to run on a complete genome, the new version takes 570s |
| 09:32.42 | MatthewWilkes | kblin: What had they done, out of interest? |
| 09:33.18 | kblin | well, it's a program to predict open reading frames on an unannotated genome |
| 09:33.52 | Ivanovic | hey, this significantly increases the time you got to get a fresh coffee! |
| 09:34.07 | kblin | we do this based on the percentage of G and C bases at the third position of a codon (triplet of bases) |
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| 09:34.46 | kblin | my predictor was a bit on the quick&dirty side, correctly predicting ~70% of the ORFs predicted by slower methods |
| 09:35.05 | kblin | but doing so in under a minute |
| 09:35.29 | kblin | now my co-worker claims he improved the predictor accuracy |
| 09:36.08 | kblin | it seems like an important heuristic is comparing the GC content of the third base of the codon with the GC content of base 1 and 2 |
| 09:36.11 | gevaerts | It's now 71%? |
| 09:36.37 | kblin | gevaerts: dunno, he also changed the output format, so my test code doesn't work anymore |
| 09:37.02 | kblin | nor my visualisation that I used for the first quick check |
| 09:37.12 | gevaerts | gives kblin some new co-workers :) |
| 09:37.54 | kblin | anyhow, it seems that instead of doing the GC_base1 and GC_base2 calculations in the loop that also does the GC_base3 calculation, there's an extra loop for each |
| 09:38.00 | kblin | that's probably not all |
| 09:39.36 | kblin | goes to wrinte himself a script to convert the new output format |
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| 09:46.40 | MatthewWilkes | kblin: I don't envy you. |
| 09:46.54 | qrng | rolls his eyes. |
| 09:47.05 | qrng | Quel dommage, kblin. |
| 09:47.15 | qrng | Really. |
| 09:48.25 | qrng | Anyhow, kblin's case is very illustrative that KISS principles should not be broken. |
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| 09:52.35 | kblin | hmm |
| 09:53.04 | kblin | ok, visual inspection of the results doesn't really convince me so far |
| 09:53.07 | thebolt | well, if the improved predictor has 95% accuracy or so it might be worth the 10x slowdown |
| 09:53.16 | thebolt | but there we just got a confirmation it doesn't ;) |
| 09:53.20 | ojwb | or 700% accuracy |
| 09:53.36 | kblin | I'll hve to write a script that does some real metric with the new results |
| 09:54.23 | kblin | like the before/after comparison of ORF overlaps |
| 09:54.34 | qrng | thebolt: People that do game programming have gotten something right -- they do how to perform culling. |
| 09:54.44 | qrng | *do know |
| 09:55.35 | qrng | IMO, using quick method for 70% of cases and then more rigorous checks for 30% ambiguous cases ought not to inflict 10x slowdown. |
| 09:55.57 | kblin | well, it's not quite that easy |
| 09:56.43 | kblin | the really hard part of the algorithm is deciding which of the overlapping ORFs to drop so there's a good whole-genome coverage |
| 09:56.59 | kblin | the right solution to this is np-hard |
| 09:57.22 | kblin | so you need to cheat if you want solutions this year |
| 09:57.31 | dzan | qrng, a result could be either wrong or correct, 70% of the time it's correct but that doesn't mean kblin knows for sure when it's wrong and thus when to use the 'better' algorithm, no? |
| 09:58.34 | kblin | the fact that you can read a genome forwards and backwards makes this even more fun |
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| 10:00.42 | qrng | dzan: I imagine such a situation. In my stochastic protein solvent excluded surface measurer I used "double checking" idiom. That is, I use two fast checks, if results are close enough, I let them pass, if they do not agree satisfactorily, then the whole battery of tests is done. |
| 10:01.38 | kblin | qrng: well, the problem here is that in order to get any decent speed, I need to drop bad ORFs as soon as possible |
| 10:01.51 | kblin | python list operations on large lists are dog slow |
| 10:02.26 | qrng | Emm... write a module in C? |
| 10:03.30 | thebolt | qrng: well, I used to be a game programmer, so yea ;) but culling out things can be very different from prediciting something correctly ;) |
| 10:03.36 | kblin | string handling in C seldom is worth the pain |
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| 10:03.55 | dzan | kblin, what's wrong with string handling in c? |
| 10:04.42 | thebolt | except pretty much everything? ;) |
| 10:04.43 | MatthewWilkes | dzan: Last time I wrote some C I had to deal with Pascal and C style strings. That enough was enough to make me wretch |
| 10:05.20 | dzan | fine... i like it :p |
| 10:05.48 | dzan | can imagine if you always work with languages with some string class or something and stuff it takes some getting used to |
| 10:06.05 | qrng | D'oh, write a module in C++, then. Some libstdc++ implementations have ropes, which greatly optimize operations on strings. |
| 10:06.14 | MatthewWilkes | dzan: We use Python, for we are not masochists. |
| 10:06.37 | dzan | fine :p |
| 10:07.55 | qrng | I am biased, though, because C++ is my mother tongue. |
| 10:08.29 | MatthewWilkes | spits on the ground |
| 10:09.13 | qrng | MatthewWilkes: Don't spit to the well, you may have to drink from it later. |
| 10:09.32 | thebolt | i code pretty much all kinds of languages from "hand-assembled" up to python on a monthly basis.. still I wouldn't do string handling in any of the lower languages ;) |
| 10:09.52 | lcuk | watches MatthewWilkes segfault because he missed a reference count when he released the spittle |
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| 10:10.59 | qrng | thebolt: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. Except that C++ really offers very nice string classes and routines. |
| 10:11.09 | qrng | There's always Boost and stringalgos. |
| 10:11.41 | thebolt | yea, then it begins to become bearable |
| 10:11.54 | thebolt | lunchtime.. |
| 10:12.00 | qrng | Bon appetit. |
| 10:12.03 | kblin | ew, C++ |
| 10:12.12 | qrng | Another one. |
| 10:12.16 | qrng | rolls his eyes. |
| 10:12.22 | kblin | seriously, broken by design |
| 10:12.44 | kblin | shudders |
| 10:12.58 | qrng | looks at kblin, at @ besides his nick and decides to abstain from comments on Python. |
| 10:13.38 | kblin | qrng: most of my code is C code |
| 10:13.52 | kblin | but for string wrangling, I prefer a scripting language |
| 10:13.52 | MatthewWilkes | lcuk: Python. |
| 10:14.11 | qrng | kblin: Ah, castrated C++. |
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| 10:14.33 | qrng | I don't wonder why you think that C++ is broken by design. |
| 10:14.46 | kblin | qrng: ever tried writing a C++ compiler? |
| 10:14.54 | kblin | there's a reason why these things suck so bad |
| 10:14.57 | qrng | I dabble with clang, yes. |
| 10:15.15 | kblin | by comparison, a java compiler is easy |
| 10:15.20 | lcuk | MatthewWilkes, then your spittle will take a while until it hits the floor :P |
| 10:15.55 | kblin | qrng: I can see the niche of C++, if you need to create your own datatypes and want to be almost as fast as C at runtime |
| 10:15.58 | qrng | kblin: Are you trying to tell that the language is "broken" if its compiler is less than trivial? |
| 10:16.02 | kblin | but you hardly ever need that |
| 10:16.03 | Waren | yop |
| 10:16.28 | MatthewWilkes | lcuk: Yes, the next 5 tasks will be tested and complete by the time you're still aiming ;) |
| 10:16.30 | kblin | qrng: the concept of multiple inheritance the way C++ does it is completely over the top |
| 10:16.58 | kblin | even stoustroup agrees that it's bad |
| 10:17.02 | qrng | Multi inheritance is a technique best used with caution. |
| 10:17.15 | qrng | Nobody _forces_ to use it. |
| 10:17.22 | lcuk | MatthewWilkes, touché! |
| 10:17.57 | kblin | qrng: I'm not saying that it's impossible to write good code in C++ |
| 10:18.27 | qrng | Why, of course, you cannot say that, because there is empiric evidence that it is possible. |
| 10:18.45 | kblin | I'm just saying that most C++ code I've had to deal with so far was a whole collection of guns pointed at the user's foot |
| 10:19.53 | kblin | anyhow, for most of the stuff I use, OOP is overrated, so why bother using C++? |
| 10:20.01 | qrng | Hm, yes, C++ is a little bit more complicated than C, and there're many ways to achieve the goal. |
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| 10:20.44 | kblin | qrng: I mean I dislike perl as well, not because the language as such sucks, but because the way people use it |
| 10:21.16 | qrng | Nevertheless, after 10 years or so under my belt, I simply don't imagine myself writing such nonsense that I happen to see at times. |
| 10:21.22 | kblin | perl makes it too easy to create write only code, and C++ makes it too easy to blow off your whole leg |
| 10:22.33 | kblin | apart from making it really easy to leak memory all over and the fact that in C a segfault is a way of reporing a programming error, C is pretty decent |
| 10:24.41 | qrng | Rather bare. I'd miss RAII, I'd miss templates, I'd miss SFINAE, etc. |
| 10:24.45 | qrng | Namespaces! |
| 10:25.08 | qrng | Also, auto and delcltype in C++0x. |
| 10:25.12 | kblin | namespaces are easy |
| 10:25.32 | kblin | the rest I've never really needed |
| 10:25.45 | kblin | if you write a GUI, that's a different thing |
| 10:25.46 | qrng | I need them all the time. |
| 10:25.53 | kblin | you don't want to do GUIs in C |
| 10:26.08 | kblin | that's something inherently OO |
| 10:26.28 | kblin | anyway, my dislike of C++ probably is due to dealing with it at university, mostly written by students who started their programming carreer with java |
| 10:26.35 | qrng | You see, C++ is not merely OO. |
| 10:26.52 | gevaerts | No, it's terrifying OO! ;) |
| 10:26.57 | qrng | Nope. |
| 10:27.13 | qrng | It's concept based design. OOD is passe in C++. |
| 10:27.36 | qrng | This would be so... 90-ish. |
| 10:27.39 | kblin | marketing speak incoming |
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| 10:28.10 | qrng | No marketing speaks, because I am not a marketroid, thank you very much. |
| 10:28.19 | kblin | what's concept based design apart from "we do OO a bit different, let's come up with a new fancy name" |
| 10:29.28 | qrng | gawks at kblin. |
| 10:29.44 | qrng | Concept based design has nothing to do with OO. |
| 10:30.03 | qrng | Concept based design has a lot to do with templates, though. |
| 10:30.33 | qrng | Imagine yourself writing a function that does sorting. |
| 10:31.12 | qrng | I don't know how one would implement universal sorting for all containers, but one would probably invent some Sortable base. |
| 10:31.30 | qrng | In Concept based design you do no such nonsense. |
| 10:31.59 | kblin | instead you let the compiler do the nonsense for you by using a template? |
| 10:32.32 | qrng | The template parameter must be a model of some specific concept. |
| 10:32.48 | qrng | There is absolutely no glue code this way, btw. |
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| 10:33.46 | kblin | you know, never since my "introduction to computer science" I was faced with the issue of having to sort arbitrary objects |
| 10:34.41 | qrng | Curious, because I have to do this. |
| 10:35.03 | qrng | For example, to sort at least once so that I can have a O(log n) lookup later. |
| 10:35.26 | kblin | sure |
| 10:35.49 | qrng | Or, for example, if I have a set of some objects, those objects have to be LessThanComparable. |
| 10:36.40 | kblin | I simply rely on the socket code giving me my TCP packets in sorted order |
| 10:36.41 | qrng | Or, alternatively, I can provide a binary function that compares those objects. |
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| 10:37.41 | qrng | You see, kblin, sorting was probably a little bit artificial as far as examples go, but it is illustrative. |
| 10:38.12 | qrng | You can imagine that OOD and Concept base desing solve the same problem very differently. |
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| 10:40.52 | kblin | qrng: depends on your OO design philosophy, I'd say |
| 10:41.12 | kblin | anyhow, I need to get some work done on that stupid gene finder |
| 10:41.36 | qrng | Nope. Concepts do not enforce relationships per se. They enforce a common archetype. |
| 10:42.06 | kblin | so it's not a class/inheritance based design |
| 10:42.18 | kblin | but that's not the only way to do OO |
| 10:43.33 | qrng | kblin: You don't have to be stubborn and call a fork a spade. :-D Those designs have different names and you use different techniques. |
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| 10:45.02 | kblin | I just don't see the big difference. but I haven't actually used it, so it's a bit hard to tell |
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| 10:50.54 | qrng | The big difference is that with CBD you use different tools and types like lego blocks. They seamlessly integrate with each other. |
| 10:52.01 | qrng | With OOD... Well, it's a wholly different opera. |
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| 10:57.33 | kblin | still sounds like pattern-based design to me |
| 10:57.36 | kblin | shrugs |
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| 11:00.33 | straydawg | lo |
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| 11:16.00 | kblin | ah, great, my compare_results script is as bad as the predictor |
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| 11:20.31 | thebolt | kblin: oh? |
| 11:21.35 | kblin | yeah, I was too lazy to detect the overlaps in a more performant way |
| 11:23.15 | kblin | it's O(n^2), and n is ~7500 |
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| 11:23.58 | thebolt | Does it really have to be O(n^2) ? what kind of overlaps is it?.. |
| 11:24.15 | kblin | I could do it in n log(n) |
| 11:24.24 | thebolt | Ok, quite a bit better ;) |
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| 11:24.48 | gevaerts | considers designing a programming language and calling that O(n) |
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| 11:25.11 | kblin | I've got a list of genes that are annotated on the genome, and a list of reading frames my program predicts |
| 11:25.51 | kblin | a sensible "match" is one where a predicted orf overlaps with an annotated gene |
| 11:26.01 | kblin | it's not perfect, but it's a good first shot |
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| 11:35.07 | kblin | hm, ok, I get ~94% overlaps with my method, I guess I need to adjust for frame and direction |
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| 11:42.17 | thebolt | kblin: do you mean that 94% of the overlaps you predict is real, or you predict 94% of all real ones? |
| 11:44.49 | kblin | I predict 94% overlaps with real genes |
| 11:46.52 | kblin | but ah, there we go, improved my search speed. n log(n) is much more bearable |
| 11:47.35 | thebolt | kblin: ie your algorithm "miss" 6% of the overlaps that are actually there? |
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| 11:52.47 | kblin | no, no, I'm not trying to predict overlaps |
| 11:53.12 | kblin | I'm trying to predict genes. so a 100% overlap would mean I roughly got all of them right |
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| 12:30.33 | thebolt | kblin: ah, i see |
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| 13:57.44 | kblin | hm, ok |
| 13:58.59 | kblin | the changes are better, actually |
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| 14:01.17 | ojwb | and in a parallel IRC channel, your coworker is complaining about his coworker rubbishing the improvements he's made... |
| 14:02.06 | thebolt | hehe |
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| 14:05.11 | kblin | hehe |
| 14:05.32 | kblin | they're still dog-slow |
| 14:06.40 | kblin | also I think my test script is currently underreporting overlaps |
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| 14:21.07 | kblin | there we go, this one looks reasonable |
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| 15:15.09 | milian | what is the exact google adress thats associated with my credit card (I'm from europe)? I have the letter at home and not with me |
| 15:16.06 | milian | the FAQ only says: "-Note that the address printed on the card carrier is Google's address- use Google's zip code if you are asked a zip code for account verification" |
| 15:16.13 | milian | but not what this zip code + adress is :-S |
| 15:17.12 | bawr | milian: You can see ot on the prepaid.citi.com/google page. |
| 15:17.19 | bawr | *it |
| 15:17.51 | milian | where exactly bawr? |
| 15:18.29 | bawr | Uh, lemme check. |
| 15:18.37 | milian | ah profile |
| 15:18.39 | milian | thanks bawr |
| 15:18.44 | bawr | Yeah, there. |
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| 15:20.05 | milian | sigh resorthoppa is still not accepting my card :( |
| 15:20.14 | milian | autorization error : Payment-Approved! Sec Code not matched! Reversal-Approved! |
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| 15:32.00 | darkip | anyone used the ACH transfers? |
| 15:32.05 | darkip | know if we get charged for them? |
| 15:34.40 | bawr | darkip: You don't get charged right away. |
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| 15:34.47 | bawr | (Even if ACH charges you.) |
| 15:34.52 | darkip | ah ok |
| 15:35.07 | darkip | do ACH transfers normally ensue charges? |
| 15:35.11 | bawr | After we got the initial $500, I've had -$1.23 on my account. |
| 15:35.26 | bawr | Because I took nearly all the money, and they charged me later. |
| 15:35.32 | darkip | ah right |
| 15:35.36 | bawr | So, erh, I wouldn't worry about it. |
| 15:35.50 | bawr | (Poland here.) |
| 15:36.03 | darkip | you were able to transfer to Poland?! |
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| 15:36.55 | bawr | Er, I had the card. I went to an ATM. I got the money. |
| 15:37.02 | darkip | ahh right |
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| 15:37.19 | bawr | Well, I called Citi to enable ATMs and increasy my daily limit to $2500, but basically, yeah. |
| 15:37.21 | darkip | I said ACH not ATM |
| 15:37.30 | darkip | as in bank transfer |
| 15:38.17 | bawr | Ah. Well, I think payments work the same way. I know both my online charges and ATM charges got "lagged" for several days. |
| 15:38.40 | bawr | Other than that, I can't help you much. :) |
| 15:38.40 | darkip | the ACH transfers are US only |
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| 15:43.15 | kblin | hey carols |
| 15:43.20 | carols | hi kblin |
| 15:44.04 | kblin | the admin survey again doesn't take care of people who admin multiple orgs |
| 15:44.14 | kblin | :) |
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| 16:01.16 | carols | kblin: you want to take the survey multiple times? |
| 16:01.59 | carols | kblin: i personally would never wish a melange survey on anyone more than once who didn't absolutely have to do it multiple times |
| 16:04.24 | kblin | carols: I agree |
| 16:04.29 | carols | :-) |
| 16:04.48 | kblin | carols: but "How many years has your organization been involved in the Google Summer of Code program (these don’t have to consecutive)?" |
| 16:04.59 | kblin | is different for Samba and WorldForge :) |
| 16:05.08 | carols | kblin: that's why there's a text field where you can explain your answer :-) |
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| 16:05.22 | kblin | I guess so :) |
| 16:06.13 | carols | kblin: do you have a better optimization? |
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| 16:07.25 | kblin | carols: none that don't involve a lot of melange magic, I guess |
| 16:07.29 | kblin | I'll cope :) |
| 16:07.36 | carols | fair enough :-) |
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| 16:11.30 | Ivanovic | carols: but it is really cool that the forms are reduced this year |
| 16:11.37 | Ivanovic | so the evals take *a lot* less time |
| 16:11.54 | carols | Ivanovic: yeah, i figured the last thing you all need from the program is a long evaluation |
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| 16:25.50 | erlehmann | what is melange? |
| 16:26.03 | erlehmann | "Did Melange function well for you as a tool to participate in Google Summer of Code this year?" |
| 16:26.18 | erlehmann | carols, can you tell me what this melange thing is? |
| 16:27.41 | sfb | socghop is melange. |
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| 16:37.16 | vegard | I actually enjoy filling out forms |
| 16:38.58 | vegard | I guess I'm the only one. |
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| 16:44.37 | bawr | Are mentor evals about the same length that student evals are? |
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| 17:05.29 | erlehmann | thanks sfb |
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| 17:44.11 | paulproteus | !timeline |
| 17:44.11 | socinfo | "timeline" is (#1) http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs#timeline, or (#2) for the visually oriented: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mRuBILD0TjI/S6tGHR4mM3I/AAAAAAAACbw/tftJozZHs-0/s1600/gsoc10timeline.JPG |
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| 18:37.36 | thebolt | Evening |
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| 18:42.13 | kblin | evening thebolt |
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| 18:53.49 | bawr | Hey guys. Do mentors have about as much paperwork to fill about their students? Or is it significantly more? |
| 18:57.29 | _wolf_ | hey thebolt! |
| 18:57.46 | _wolf_ | long time no see. How's it going? |
| 18:59.18 | thebolt | hey! definitely |
| 18:59.22 | thebolt | going pretty well right now |
| 18:59.35 | thebolt | just finishing up the last parts of my msc thesis, going to present/Defend it on sept. 3rd |
| 18:59.39 | thebolt | how about yourself? |
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| 19:05.14 | kblin | bawr: if it's about the surveys, it's about the same |
| 19:06.00 | gevaerts | We don't get to fill in tax forms, but then we don't get shiny google cards either |
| 19:06.40 | bawr | Fair trade. |
| 19:07.03 | bawr | But hey, cards-schmards, all we reall want are t-shirts, right? |
| 19:07.13 | thebolt | Definitely! :) |
| 19:07.50 | gevaerts | In that case, non-acting mentors have the best deal :) |
| 19:08.05 | thebolt | i think that by now about 75% of all my t-shirts are marked Google.. (most of them are gsoc).. to the degree so that when a girl i dated earlier this year made me a birthday card she drew me wearing a google t-shirt :P |
| 19:08.28 | YuviPanda | i had one t shirt that said google |
| 19:08.41 | YuviPanda | so i gave it off to this cute (and tiny) girl from class :) |
| 19:08.57 | YuviPanda | so I now have Microsoft and Yahoo Tees, but none from Google :( |
| 19:08.59 | gevaerts | Most of my t-shirts say "front" on one side and "back" on the other |
| 19:09.11 | gevaerts | (may not be 100% falsehood-free) |
| 19:09.33 | YuviPanda | gevaerts: don't they say 'in' inside and 'out' outside? |
| 19:09.49 | gevaerts | YuviPanda: no, funnily enough, they say 'out' on the inside |
| 19:09.52 | kblin | I only have two microsoft t-shirts |
| 19:10.02 | kblin | I wore one of them to the mentor summit last year |
| 19:10.08 | thebolt | google is the only company t-shirts i have anymore.. used to have a few Ageia ones |
| 19:10.24 | kblin | easy to spot who was an open source geek at the wild palms |
| 19:10.27 | gevaerts | has more fosdem shirts than gsoc shirts |
| 19:10.28 | YuviPanda | has a VS 2005 launchday T Shirt |
| 19:11.16 | YuviPanda | woah, wait. It's 2010 now, so 2005 launched in 2005. |
| 19:11.20 | YuviPanda | 5 years ago :\ |
| 19:11.23 | thebolt | reminds me.. i need to get a logo and business card designed _soon_ |
| 19:11.24 | YuviPanda | i'm 19 now |
| 19:11.50 | gevaerts | suddenly feels old |
| 19:11.56 | YuviPanda | too |
| 19:12.01 | thebolt | YuviPanda: you're not :P |
| 19:12.09 | sfb | thebolt: You know someone who does that or are you diong it yourself? |
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| 19:12.22 | thebolt | sfb: i hope to find someone, but otherwise i have to do it myself :P |
| 19:12.29 | YuviPanda | thebolt: yeah, but a few years ago, wherever I walked to, I'm the youngest (wannabe)geek there. Not anymore :( |
| 19:12.34 | sfb | thebolt: I was going to put a job out for bid on elance.com |
| 19:12.46 | gevaerts | YuviPanda: I used to think that people born after 1980 were *very* young |
| 19:12.46 | YuviPanda | thebolt: it's now more like, 'how old are you?' '19', 'oh, same as us!' |
| 19:12.48 | YuviPanda | sigh |
| 19:13.15 | thebolt | gevaerts: i felt old when the oldest of my two younger brothers recently announced that he is getting married next summer.. |
| 19:13.21 | YuviPanda | thinks people born after 2000 were *very* young |
| 19:13.28 | sfb | gevaerts: 80s babies... |
| 19:13.37 | gevaerts | YuviPanda: before you know it they'll be your coworkers |
| 19:13.50 | thebolt | sfb: well, thing is the budget is 0 ;) |
| 19:13.52 | YuviPanda | gevaerts: true. |
| 19:13.58 | drt24 | YuviPanda: don't worry you will still be able to do that reasonably frequently :-) |
| 19:14.12 | kblin | YuviPanda: to quote my grandfather's in-laws "our neighbours are very young people.. 60ish..." |
| 19:14.13 | sfb | thebolt: Same but I'll skip a 6 pack of beer for a couple weeks to get my business off the ground. (; |
| 19:14.24 | gevaerts | thebolt: just wait until he's a grandfather :) |
| 19:14.24 | YuviPanda | drt24: well, not for long.... You become a commodity geek when you're over 20 :( |
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| 19:14.35 | thebolt | sfb: well, thing is I am starting a couple of companies right now.. |
| 19:14.40 | drt24 | yes, but :-) |
| 19:14.49 | kblin | kicks python |
| 19:14.50 | thebolt | sfb: and the one that needs a logo pretty much ahve zero activity.. it is just a holding company |
| 19:14.56 | sfb | Ah |
| 19:15.05 | gevaerts | What does it hold? Logos? |
| 19:15.18 | sfb | gevaerts: Liability. |
| 19:15.19 | YuviPanda | aaargh, another emacs vs vim internal debate |
| 19:15.21 | YuviPanda | sigh |
| 19:15.21 | thebolt | gevaerts: hehe, well, he will probably be a father in not too long ;) |
| 19:15.25 | thebolt | gevaerts: shares ;) |
| 19:15.35 | thebolt | and sometime in the future hopefully a fortune ,) |
| 19:15.37 | Chainsaw | YuviPanda: Hold up a flag that says "nano". They'll stop. |
| 19:15.51 | YuviPanda | guesses he'll never be a father |
| 19:15.54 | YuviPanda | oh snap |
| 19:15.56 | YuviPanda | this is #gsoc! |
| 19:16.05 | YuviPanda | Chainsaw: nah, Nano is too.... Notepadish? |
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| 19:16.12 | sfb | ed |
| 19:16.16 | sfb | You edit with ed. |
| 19:16.24 | Chainsaw | YuviPanda: I use nano exclusively. |
| 19:16.27 | YuviPanda | and you view with vi |
| 19:16.33 | kblin | M-x butterfly |
| 19:16.35 | thebolt | edlin.pl |
| 19:16.42 | sfb | haha |
| 19:16.43 | bawr | kblin: :( |
| 19:17.04 | thebolt | (a home-made script we have to edit files in a sed-like way.. but it can also apply a regexp to the filenames, including rename) |
| 19:17.08 | YuviPanda | it would've been oh so totally even more cooler |
| 19:17.14 | YuviPanda | if m-x butterfly took a parameter |
| 19:17.20 | YuviPanda | on which bit to flip |
| 19:18.59 | kblin | YuviPanda: you do that by timing your keystrokes, noob |
| 19:19.04 | kblin | ;) |
| 19:19.14 | N00BPanda | is N00B |
| 19:19.19 | gevaerts | Or by keying your timestrokes |
| 19:19.57 | kblin | gevaerts: yeah, according to the special relativity as applied to emacs, that's pretty much the same |
| 19:20.19 | thebolt | you know, they forgot one level, which kind-of is the level that kblin will soon be at.. you don't code yourself, you get your undergrads (or minions) to code for you according to your design :P |
| 19:20.44 | kblin | I'll get undergrads? |
| 19:20.48 | kblin | that can code? |
| 19:20.51 | kblin | yay |
| 19:20.55 | gevaerts | emacs stands for "E = M C Squared"? What's the a for? |
| 19:21.28 | kblin | gevaerts: for albert of course |
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| 19:22.37 | thebolt | kblin: well, sooner or later i guess.. |
| 19:22.50 | gevaerts | ah, right |
| 19:23.39 | kblin | I'll have to lure them over from the comp-sci faculty, I guess |
| 19:24.26 | gevaerts | kblin: can you tweak your scripts to find genes related to good coding qualities? |
| 19:25.46 | bawr | gevaerts: Why? There was this test that was able to weed out non-programming programmers early on. Just make the psych department conduct it on a bunch of unsuspecting students. :) |
| 19:25.50 | kblin | no, coding is an aquired skill, only slightly influenced by genes that make you want to hang out in your parent's basement |
| 19:26.34 | kblin | bawr: really? why is nobody using it when hiring programmers then? |
| 19:27.01 | bawr | kblin: Nah, it wasn't exactly like- wait, lemme find it. |
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| 19:27.15 | gevaerts | Is that the test people on the mentors ML are talking about? |
| 19:27.38 | TobiasFar | hi, anybody knowing when the shirts and certs are going to be shipped? |
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| 19:28.04 | kblin | after the results are announced |
| 19:28.20 | kblin | ha, gotcha! |
| 19:28.21 | TobiasFar | kblin: so along with final payment? |
| 19:28.31 | kblin | it's list appends that slow down this function |
| 19:28.39 | kblin | TobiasFar: probably |
| 19:28.43 | TobiasFar | k..thanks |
| 19:28.50 | kblin | TobiasFar: but they'll likely go out in batches |
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| 19:29.18 | TobiasFar | yeah..like with the first shippment..just wanted to know a rough time so i can make sure somebody is there to receive it |
| 19:29.30 | bawr | kblin: http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/ |
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| 19:30.03 | bawr | kblin: The idea is, you filter out people who couldn't learn if it saved their life, then make them your minions over time. |
| 19:30.19 | bawr | s/them/those sho could/ |
| 19:30.36 | _wolf_ | carols, ok to PM? |
| 19:30.47 | carols | _wolf_: yes |
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| 19:47.50 | thebolt | _wolf_: so how do you do? |
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| 19:51.24 | _wolf_ | as I said, same old, same old. |
| 19:51.43 | _wolf_ | at the moment I'm pretty happy since the meds are kicking in on my sick rat |
| 19:52.32 | _wolf_ | hilights the messages above for thebolt |
| 19:52.36 | thebolt | _wolf_: ah, i guess i missed that in the stream ;) |
| 19:52.40 | _wolf_ | :D |
| 19:52.49 | thebolt | or hm, i cannot see you saying that before actually, anyhow, doesn't matter ;) |
| 19:52.50 | _wolf_ | no probs. The part with the rat is new ;) |
| 19:52.57 | thebolt | so how's gsoc going for you this year? |
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| 19:53.14 | _wolf_ | gsoc is going quite well |
| 19:53.23 | _wolf_ | at least 80% success with flying colors |
| 19:53.42 | _wolf_ | we did loose one student at the mid-term |
| 19:53.50 | _wolf_ | but such is life |
| 19:53.58 | thebolt | ok |
| 19:54.32 | _wolf_ | also getting back to my masters studies (had to take spring off, due to work.. :( |
| 19:54.44 | thebolt | I see |
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| 19:55.26 | thebolt | if my examiner & opponent are not too hard on me (they haven't been so far) i will have mine finished by september 4th ;) |
| 19:55.54 | kblin | bawr: interesting link, thanks for that |
| 19:55.55 | _wolf_ | cool! |
| 19:56.05 | _wolf_ | thebolt, congrats on that! |
| 19:56.21 | thebolt | _wolf_: thanks :) does not mean i don't have work to do though ;) |
| 19:56.25 | kblin | thebolt: you have an opponent on the thesis defense? |
| 19:56.34 | thebolt | kblin: yes |
| 19:56.50 | bawr | kblin: No problem. I know it made sense to me when I read it. Puts things into perspective, since I used to take consistent mental models for granted. |
| 19:56.55 | thebolt | kblin: although for masters it is "just" another master student |
| 19:57.13 | kblin | and I guess it's not allowed to kneecap him prior to the exam 0:) |
| 19:57.31 | thebolt | kblin: no, but you get to find them yourself |
| 19:57.43 | thebolt | so in my case it is me and a friend who will "cross-opponent" eachothers works |
| 19:57.46 | kblin | bawr: I doubt the "education makes no difference" conclusion |
| 19:57.54 | kblin | thebolt: ah, ok |
| 19:58.01 | thebolt | kblin: then as soon as we're done we're going to hire him in our company ;-) |
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| 19:58.21 | kblin | bawr: our introduction to comp-sci class had the same double hump, of course |
| 19:58.29 | bawr | kblin: Wasn't the conclusion "education makes no difference if you can't form a mental model", though? |
| 19:58.48 | bawr | kblin: And I'd argue that that conclusion would make sense. |
| 19:59.29 | kblin | but the "success" hump was mostly physics and comp biol students, whereas the "failure" hump was mostly "plain" comp-sci students |
| 20:00.01 | kblin | our professor liked to do these statistics |
| 20:00.32 | bawr | Well, these days there's a lot of folks into comp-sci for the money or for similarly misguided reasons, so I can see how that would happen. |
| 20:01.10 | kblin | I suspected the "I build my own gaming pc, I'll go study comp-sci" attitude |
| 20:01.47 | bawr | I blame Hollywood, really. |
| 20:03.12 | YuviPanda | Reasons people have given me for studying computer science: |
| 20:03.16 | YuviPanda | 1. "My mom told me so" |
| 20:03.24 | YuviPanda | 2. "Uncle told me CS grads make lot of money" |
| 20:03.33 | YuviPanda | 3. "Easier to get a job, no?" |
| 20:03.53 | YuviPanda | 4. "Increases value (of girls and guys) in the marriage market" |
| 20:04.02 | bawr | snickers |
| 20:04.04 | YuviPanda | 5. "I hate electronics" |
| 20:04.09 | bawr | What. |
| 20:04.22 | YuviPanda | 6. "It was the only one available" |
| 20:04.40 | YuviPanda | 7. "Mom's trusted Palmist told her" |
| 20:04.46 | YuviPanda | all true stories |
| 20:05.07 | bawr | I'd really want to know how Mr.5 reasoned it out. |
| 20:05.19 | YuviPanda | bawr: oh, it happens a lot in the other way too |
| 20:05.31 | YuviPanda | bawr: "I picked electronics because I hate programming" -> WAAAY more common |
| 20:05.47 | YuviPanda | or, "I picked biology because I hate computers" |
| 20:06.07 | YuviPanda | ^ was reason given by my younger brother 2 years back |
| 20:06.16 | bawr | You know, I'm beginning to believe it's good that I don't ask people these things. |
| 20:06.44 | YuviPanda | the one that really did piss me off was, "I had to get something before I can do an MBA, so have to put up with all you nerds" |
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| 20:07.32 | YuviPanda | bawr: yes, I too stopped |
| 20:07.33 | bawr | Have you tried schadenfreude? |
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| 20:07.41 | bawr | It's quite effective for the MBA types. |
| 20:07.43 | YuviPanda | bawr: on that guy? how? |
| 20:08.01 | bawr | Seeing as they're doomed to have quite a few failures on their way. |
| 20:08.14 | YuviPanda | ah, they're failures all through college anyway. |
| 20:08.17 | YuviPanda | they don't care. |
| 20:08.34 | bawr | You can still take pleasure in that! ;) |
| 20:08.37 | YuviPanda | they're going to do an MBA simply to put that on their resume |
| 20:08.38 | YuviPanda | and get a higher salary |
| 20:08.47 | YuviPanda | so they don't really get miserable at failure |
| 20:08.49 | YuviPanda | at all |
| 20:08.58 | bawr | Hm. |
| 20:09.04 | bawr | The universe is winning. :( |
| 20:09.29 | YuviPanda | ofcourse, I never do return that guy's calls when he calls me the night before Data Structures exam.... |
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| 20:10.41 | bawr | Why not pick up and ask him to perform a cost-benefit analysis on passing that exam? |
| 20:10.52 | bawr | Then you'll know if helping him is worth your time. ;) |
| 20:10.54 | YuviPanda | bawr: he'll have no idea what that is. |
| 20:11.08 | YuviPanda | bawr: he'll fail his way through MBA too. |
| 20:11.16 | bawr | Oh, I see. |
| 20:11.22 | YuviPanda | bawr: parents' money will pull him through. |
| 20:11.57 | YuviPanda | bawr: i don't really need to be concerned though. I expect him to be dead before 30. |
| 20:12.19 | YuviPanda | well, atleast one particular guy in the bunch of wannabe-MBA-but-really-just-higher-salary guys |
| 20:12.39 | YuviPanda | too much drinking. |
| 20:12.45 | YuviPanda | s/drinking/alcohol/ |
| 20:12.58 | bawr | You seem to care an awful lot. Try apathy. |
| 20:13.21 | YuviPanda | didn't work out. |
| 20:13.40 | YuviPanda | i can't seem to flip a finger and move on. sigh. |
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| 20:18.39 | pdelgallego | !next |
| 20:18.40 | socinfo | "next" is August 16th: Firm 'pencils down' date. Mentors, students and organization administrators can begin submitting final evaluations to Google. Also see !timeline for mor info. |
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| 20:35.02 | felipevieira | !next |
| 20:35.03 | socinfo | "next" is August 16th: Firm 'pencils down' date. Mentors, students and organization administrators can begin submitting final evaluations to Google. Also see !timeline for mor info. |
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