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| 00:16.02 | mmadia | Engleek ? |
| 00:16.37 | mmadia_haiku | .. 2 minutes too slow |
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| 01:23.56 | LetterRip | hi sorry to be a bother but we have completed our organization profile but it is listed as one of the orgs that has not yet completed their profile? |
| 01:24.03 | LetterRip | any idea why that might be? |
| 01:24.32 | wensi | hi, does any one knows how to approach the mentoring organizations? |
| 01:24.42 | LetterRip | Blender is the mentoring organization |
| 01:24.53 | LetterRip | wensi - they generally will have a contact listed |
| 01:24.59 | LetterRip | in their organization profile |
| 01:25.15 | LetterRip | ie we have bf-committers@blender.org |
| 01:25.20 | Dark_Shikari | wensi: it's just a jump to the left |
| 01:25.24 | Dark_Shikari | (and then a step to the right) |
| 01:25.27 | LetterRip | and or an irc channel |
| 01:25.33 | LetterRip | Dark_Shikari: heheh |
| 01:25.38 | wensi | what jump to the left? |
| 01:25.45 | LetterRip | wensi it is a quote from a movie |
| 01:25.50 | wensi | oh |
| 01:25.52 | wensi | what movie |
| 01:25.58 | scorche|sh | Dark_Shikari: put your hands on your hips? |
| 01:26.04 | Landon | does the macarena |
| 01:26.05 | Redache | LetterRip: Blender shows as an org with a profile for me |
| 01:26.06 | Dark_Shikari | scorche|sh: and bring your knees in tight |
| 01:27.16 | wensi | are you guys all mentors? |
| 01:27.23 | LetterRip | Redache: i'm a lysdexic silly bastard :) |
| 01:27.38 | LetterRip | somehow i read the top list as completed organization profiles |
| 01:27.42 | Redache | heh |
| 01:27.42 | LetterRip | and the bottom as not completed |
| 01:28.35 | LetterRip | It seems like it would make more sense how i thought i'd read it :) |
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| 01:53.12 | Raim | last year someone made a printable version of the GSoC timeline which was a great visualization the weeks, is there something similar for this year yet? |
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| 01:55.42 | skbohra | Raim: no afaik |
| 01:55.46 | robbyoconnor | Raim: not yet |
| 01:56.37 | skbohra | Raim: you have a chance ;) |
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| 01:57.27 | skbohra | would be nice if the person gives source file of the last year's image |
| 01:57.35 | skbohra | i will ping him |
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| 02:04.26 | Raim | skbohra: robbyoconnor: okay, thanks anyway |
| 02:04.37 | Raim | unfortunately, I have no skills with graphics stuff to provide something like that :( |
| 02:04.44 | robbyoconnor | Raim: so wait :) |
| 02:05.03 | robbyoconnor | ping lh by emailing her *DIRECTLY I REPEAT DIRECTLY* and ask if she knows |
| 02:05.50 | robbyoconnor | by now you should know her email :) |
| 02:05.59 | Raim | hah, I don't think I need to bother lh with that, she has sure enough more serious issues to deal with ;) |
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| 02:14.51 | neha | hi |
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| 02:19.14 | Bageshwar | neha: hi.. good to c some1 from d same time zone ! |
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| 02:26.10 | geoaxis | Bageshwar, well i think there is some difference between EST and PST |
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| 02:30.58 | schumaml | like East and West? :) |
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| 02:37.54 | neha | hi, guys. |
| 02:38.08 | neha | n gals! |
| 02:38.08 | pyav | @neha:hello neha |
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| 02:49.46 | anirudh | hii |
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| 02:50.25 | Bageshwar | geoaxis: sure it is ! |
| 02:51.06 | jasebo_at_home | can anyone help me out with the rules about using the GSoC 2010 logo, and re-using text from the publications? |
| 02:51.08 | Bageshwar | any final yr undergrads here.. (engg ) |
| 02:51.10 | jasebo_at_home | http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code/downloads/list |
| 02:51.27 | jasebo_at_home | oh, and hi everyone ;-) |
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| 03:43.08 | ajuonline | good morning.. |
| 03:43.23 | Snarkbird | Hello all |
| 03:43.39 | araujo | hello |
| 03:43.54 | Snarkbird | Did you know Joerg Sonnenberg? |
| 03:44.19 | Guest71362 | hello |
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| 03:47.04 | ritek | hi there |
| 03:47.41 | spectie | hey |
| 03:47.55 | spectie | hi carols |
| 03:48.06 | carols | hi spectie |
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| 03:57.04 | ajuonline | !next |
| 03:57.04 | socinfo | "next" is March 29th -- student applications are then officially opened, but you can talk to participating organizations now already :) |
| 03:58.45 | ritek | !next |
| 03:58.45 | socinfo | "next" is March 29th -- student applications are then officially opened, but you can talk to participating organizations now already :) |
| 03:58.48 | ritek | cool |
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| 04:04.00 | Bageshwar | what are the odds that 2 students work upon the same project ? |
| 04:05.00 | Guest71362 | um, I guess low but I have no clue and am curious to find out |
| 04:05.44 | mmadia_haiku | work on or apply for the same project? |
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| 04:06.46 | Guest71362 | i'd guess apply are pretty high, but work on seems unlikely? |
| 04:06.52 | mmadia_haiku | because each mentoring organization chooses which students+projects are accepted. |
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| 04:09.49 | Bageshwar | yeah... but the gsoc page says... redundancy in open source is acceptable... since some projects ( the easy ones ) lure more students |
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| 04:10.03 | Bageshwar | ! |
| 04:10.23 | seredip_ | hello |
| 04:10.38 | Guest71362 | hm, okay |
| 04:10.51 | seredip_ | neat |
| 04:11.06 | mmadia_haiku | then it'd be best to ask the organizations that you're interested in |
| 04:11.19 | Guest71362 | what projects are people intrested in at the moment? |
| 04:11.43 | Snarkbird | I'm interested in NetBSD |
| 04:11.59 | Bageshwar | i think ppl are more interested in web based projects... |
| 04:12.26 | Guest71362 | nice |
| 04:12.37 | seredip_ | i want to do machine learning, but didn't find any directly related |
| 04:12.38 | Guest71362 | i'm intrested in the scumm ones |
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| 04:13.18 | marcheu | Bageshwar: some students are clearly trying to make easy money, yeah |
| 04:13.21 | Guest71362 | some of the ones I think are really cool (yafaray, ffmpeg) are way to over my head at the moment though |
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| 04:13.40 | marcheu | usually they don't care if it's open source or whatever |
| 04:13.43 | seredip_ | you mean the ray tracer? |
| 04:13.49 | Guest71362 | yeah |
| 04:13.56 | Bageshwar | marcheu: true! |
| 04:14.14 | marcheu | that's actually one of the way I sort them out ;) testing their knowledge about FOSS |
| 04:14.20 | Bageshwar | but den i dont quite get the essence of open source.. as to .. why google pays the students |
| 04:14.23 | seredip_ | I feel there are a lot of 3D modeling project |
| 04:14.53 | Landon | Bageshwar: to get them interesting, to get the ball rolling |
| 04:15.02 | marcheu | it's a good hint, if the student doesn't know anything about free software, he probably won't stay after SoC |
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| 04:16.54 | seredip_ | any one work on the machine translation? |
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| 04:42.55 | seredip_ | anyone talk? |
| 04:44.06 | araujo | me |
| 04:44.38 | seredip_ | just wondering how to discuss ideas with mentor |
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| 04:45.23 | araujo | well you should join the channels of your organization, and talk directly to the mentor there |
| 04:46.37 | seredip_ | then, what's the purpose of this channel? |
| 04:47.18 | geoaxis | seredip_, to answer questions like the one you just asked |
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| 04:47.26 | araujo | heh |
| 04:47.50 | araujo | seredip_, discussion about the GSoC project |
| 04:48.48 | seredip_ | hehe, that's a good answer |
| 04:49.04 | Bageshwar | !lol |
| 04:49.04 | socinfo | Error: "lol" is not a valid command. |
| 04:49.14 | Bageshwar | !next |
| 04:49.15 | socinfo | "next" is March 29th -- student applications are then officially opened, but you can talk to participating organizations now already :) |
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| 05:06.41 | ritek | !rofl |
| 05:06.41 | socinfo | Error: "rofl" is not a valid command. |
| 05:06.46 | ritek | :P |
| 05:07.31 | zhengyang | !help |
| 05:07.31 | socinfo | "help" is !next, !faq, !advice and !wiki. !botabuse tells you about private query syntax |
| 05:08.04 | zhengyang | !advice |
| 05:08.04 | socinfo | "advice" is http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code/wiki/AdviceforStudents for students, http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code/wiki/AdviceforMentors for mentors |
| 05:08.13 | zhengyang | !wiki |
| 05:08.14 | socinfo | "wiki" is http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code/w/list |
| 05:08.57 | zhengyang | !next |
| 05:08.57 | socinfo | "next" is March 29th -- student applications are then officially opened, but you can talk to participating organizations now already :) |
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| 05:23.49 | robbyoconnor | !botabuse |
| 05:23.51 | socinfo | "botabuse" is (#1) Leave me alone! (also, you can play with me as much as you like in a private /query so as not to spam the channel), or (#2) When in a query with me, use whatis #gsoc <factoid> to get the best use., or (#3) You can also get a list of factoids with 'factoids search #gsoc *' and 'more' |
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| 05:26.07 | Bageshwar | what is gsoc |
| 05:26.44 | xnox | !gsoc |
| 05:26.44 | socinfo | Error: "gsoc" is not a valid command. |
| 05:26.49 | xnox | !help |
| 05:26.50 | socinfo | "help" is !next, !faq, !advice and !wiki. !botabuse tells you about private query syntax |
| 05:26.58 | xnox | !faq |
| 05:26.58 | socinfo | "faq" is http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs |
| 05:27.13 | xnox | Bageshwar: ^ |
| 05:27.35 | Bageshwar | xnox: hehe.. i was testing a bot for a while |
| 05:27.47 | xnox | ok |
| 05:27.52 | xnox | sorry |
| 05:28.28 | Bageshwar | xnox: btw .. which project ? |
| 05:28.40 | xnox | ? hm |
| 05:29.08 | Bageshwar | 4 gsoc ? |
| 05:29.26 | xnox | I'm a student. Haven't decided yet |
| 05:30.19 | Bageshwar | xnox: ok.... areas of interest ? |
| 05:31.04 | xnox | python |
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| 05:34.22 | Bageshwar | xnox: kewl.... ! |
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| 05:35.08 | xnox | Bageshwar: seriously register your nick with Nickserv |
| 05:35.24 | xnox | And look up other people's cloaks =) |
| 05:35.56 | Bageshwar | xnox: n how ? |
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| 05:37.14 | xnox | Bageshwar: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=irc+register+nick |
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| 05:46.45 | fat0ss | I am tying to contact concerned person for Opencv Project , bt no one reply..what should I do ? :( |
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| 05:48.07 | SukhE | When did your post your reply? |
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| 05:51.27 | robbyoconnor | fat0ss: wait. |
| 05:52.10 | fat0ss | I tried it via Mail |
| 05:52.24 | robbyoconnor | fat0ss: you really need to speak with the project people now -- google doesn't have much say aside from the number of slots and such (barring students meet eligiblibility requirements) |
| 05:52.32 | robbyoconnor | then wait. |
| 05:53.04 | fat0ss | it might be possible they are getting busy even more than usual days :-/ |
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| 05:54.58 | SukhE | fat0ss: It takes time for someone to reply, don't expect that you will get one within just a day. Have patience! |
| 05:55.00 | robbyoconnor | try their irc channel. |
| 05:55.25 | robbyoconnor | fat0ss: consider this: you're not the only person on the planet, shockingly the world doesn't revolve around you :P |
| 05:55.26 | fat0ss | Yes I tried |
| 05:55.32 | robbyoconnor | then *WAIT* |
| 05:55.46 | robbyoconnor | coming here is gonna be counter-productive because nobody can help you here. |
| 05:56.20 | Bageshwar | fat0ss: check there timezones also.. |
| 05:56.32 | araujo | fat0ss, do they have irc channel? |
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| 05:56.47 | fat0ss | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:57.08 | Bageshwar | fat0ss: maybe they dozz off wen u intend to work and vice-versa |
| 05:57.11 | Bageshwar | yup. all f dem |
| 05:57.16 | araujo | fat0ss, you can ask/wait there for answers |
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| 05:57.53 | fat0ss | Okay |
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| 05:58.28 | robbyoconnor | fat0ss: where arte you located? |
| 05:58.32 | robbyoconnor | where are they located? |
| 05:58.46 | robbyoconnor | also: people tend to idle on irc and not constantly look at their screens. |
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| 05:59.43 | fat0ss | I think they all are located in U.S. |
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| 06:00.19 | fat0ss | and I am from South Asia zone |
| 06:00.51 | araujo | when did you send the email? |
| 06:01.02 | Bageshwar | fat0ss: that might be the problem.. u better roam around 5 am in the mor ! |
| 06:01.11 | Bageshwar | Pseudocoded: hello |
| 06:01.46 | fat0ss | 5:00 A.M. I will Try |
| 06:01.52 | fat0ss | Thanx a lot :) |
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| 06:02.40 | robbyoconnor | fat0ss: what they said :) |
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| 06:04.28 | iamsumesh | Hi Everyone. |
| 06:06.00 | fat0ss | robbyoconnor : they said nothing , that's a problem :'( |
| 06:06.11 | slimb00 | hello SOCians |
| 06:06.14 | slimb00 | !! |
| 06:06.14 | socinfo | Error: "!" is not a valid command. |
| 06:06.15 | robbyoconnor | fat0ss: your problem is the time zone issues |
| 06:06.22 | robbyoconnor | by *they* i meant the users here. |
| 06:06.55 | robbyoconnor | most open source developers have day jobs... |
| 06:07.46 | araujo | fat0ss, so you don't even wait for 1 day yet? |
| 06:08.43 | fat0ss | <PROTECTED> |
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| 06:09.14 | fat0ss | araujo: I am waiting from 2+ days |
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| 06:09.31 | skbohra | fat0ss: useless to complain here imho |
| 06:10.28 | fat0ss | Yes , I understand... but still I got lotzz of useful information |
| 06:10.33 | araujo | fat0ss, did you try sending email to their mailing list?, many projects have GSoC specific lists , do they have? |
| 06:11.25 | fat0ss | Yes ,they have the specified list for the GSoC and I tried on it also |
| 06:11.43 | robbyoconnor | fat0ss: you're wasting time here in my opinion |
| 06:11.53 | araujo | fat0ss, nobody writes there? |
| 06:11.56 | robbyoconnor | when you could be drafting a KICKASS application |
| 06:11.57 | robbyoconnor | :D |
| 06:12.51 | fat0ss | Yah , I am also thinking in the sameway |
| 06:12.59 | fat0ss | but still thanx a lot :) |
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| 06:19.35 | Pseudocoded | nui hello |
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| 08:00.27 | kageiit | !next |
| 08:00.27 | socinfo | "next" is March 29th -- student applications are then officially opened, but you can talk to participating organizations now already :) |
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| 08:10.35 | kageiit | is there someone from the gephi community here? |
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| 08:11.12 | mlankhorst | !orgs |
| 08:11.13 | socinfo | "orgs" is The list of accepted mentoring organizations is here: http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/program/accepted_orgs/google/gsoc2010 |
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| 08:27.42 | skbohra | bad internet connections is no good :-/ |
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| 08:34.32 | ajuonline | !anyone |
| 08:34.32 | socinfo | "anyone" is Instead of looking for mentors from specific projects here, you will likely get much better results by speaking to that mentoring organization themselves. You can find the org's contact info by clicking on their name in the list at: http://socghop.appspot.com/program/accepted_orgs/google/gsoc2009 |
| 08:34.44 | ajuonline | kageiit: ^ |
| 08:34.53 | pygi | ajuonline, stop bugging people :p |
| 08:35.02 | ajuonline | pygi: i only bug you :P |
| 08:35.08 | pygi | sigh |
| 08:35.09 | pygi | :-/ |
| 08:35.35 | ajuonline | pygi: participating this year? |
| 08:35.40 | pygi | perhaps |
| 08:35.44 | pygi | If someone will take me |
| 08:35.46 | pygi | you know I'm useless |
| 08:35.47 | pygi | :) |
| 08:35.48 | ajuonline | mentor again or student again? :P |
| 08:36.06 | kageiit | hi @ajuonline |
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| 08:36.11 | pygi | ajuonline, the second |
| 08:36.25 | ajuonline | kageiit: i can talk here too, |
| 08:36.31 | ajuonline | kageiit: hi, whats up |
| 08:36.37 | ajuonline | pygi: good luck :D |
| 08:37.06 | LingKun | ajuonline: Are you Mr. Luis F. Araujo |
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| 08:37.47 | ajuonline | LingKun: no. I think his nick is his last name |
| 08:37.53 | headache | hello |
| 08:37.53 | ajuonline | araujo: ^ |
| 08:38.17 | LingKun | ajuonline: :) |
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| 08:38.42 | ajuonline | LingKun: i mean, thats the only Mr. Araujo i know of :P |
| 08:38.54 | ajuonline | #justguessing |
| 08:39.51 | rod_ | hi |
| 08:39.51 | LingKun | ajuonline: Yeah, I mean him:) a gentoo dev, right? |
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| 08:41.15 | ajuonline | LingKun: should be, not sure .. |
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| 08:43.06 | rod_ | hello, I was wondering if anyone here can answer a couple questions about gsoc |
| 08:43.34 | kageiit | have u read the FAQ, already? |
| 08:43.39 | rod_ | ya |
| 08:44.05 | kblin | then just ask your questions :) |
| 08:44.13 | LingKun | rod_:Please go ahead, maybe someone can help |
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| 08:45.41 | rod_ | my main concern is whether applicants are expected to have experience with some sort of open-source project before.... |
| 08:47.00 | headache | rod_, no but if you have experience is better |
| 08:47.10 | headache | but it's not a requisite |
| 08:47.53 | kblin | rod_: the purpose of the program is to get students involved into open source. it'd be kind of silly to require prior involvement |
| 08:48.04 | kblin | !experience |
| 08:48.05 | socinfo | Error: "experience" is not a valid command. |
| 08:48.27 | marcheu | kblin: on the other hand, if the student doesn't have real interest in OSS, he is unlikely to stay |
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| 08:48.49 | rod_ | I just assume that with possibly so many students applying, only students with OS experience will stand out , eh i am probably wrong |
| 08:48.52 | headache | anyway rod_ search some project, getting interested, checkout source code, start playing with it |
| 08:49.18 | headache | getting in contact with organization through irc channels |
| 08:49.30 | headache | to have a little support |
| 08:50.06 | kblin | !learn experience as The purpose of GSoC is to get students involved in Open Source projects. To require prior experience with Open Source projects would be silly. Of course getting involved with an Open Source project before sending your application won't hurt. |
| 08:50.06 | socinfo | The operation succeeded. |
| 08:50.29 | kblin | marcheu: there's that |
| 08:51.01 | rod_ | headache, kblin, are you guys students who are applying this year? |
| 08:51.21 | kblin | rod_: I was a student from 2005-2007, I'm a mentor now |
| 08:51.42 | rod_ | i see, thats good |
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| 08:51.58 | lut4rp | Ahoy stalwarts! |
| 08:52.52 | headache | rod_, I'm a student |
| 08:53.04 | rod_ | :) |
| 08:53.40 | headache | the best advice I could give you take source code start communication with org |
| 08:54.12 | headache | communication is very important |
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| 09:00.07 | marcheu | kblin: so before you did SoC, did you have interest in OSS? why did you stay? |
| 09:00.20 | marcheu | (those are real questions, I was only a mentor ever) |
| 09:04.06 | araujo | hello LingKun , yes, it's me :) |
| 09:04.51 | *** part/#gsoc ruturaj (~Ruturaj@210.212.55.3) |
| 09:06.55 | kblin | marcheu: well, I had dabbled a bit in creating artwork and some content for WorldForge, and maybe the odd patch to one of the AI rules, but I had no prior coding experience |
| 09:07.20 | ajuonline | araujo: hola ;) |
| 09:07.25 | araujo | Hola ajuonline :) |
| 09:07.39 | kblin | marcheu: I did my first GSoC for Wine because I could use the GSoC work for my bachelors thesis |
| 09:08.03 | kblin | marcheu: as to why I decided to stay around, I can't give you a conclusive answer |
| 09:08.12 | marcheu | yeah you had no cofding experience, but you have interest in OSS still |
| 09:08.17 | kblin | I've wondered about that many times myself |
| 09:08.36 | marcheu | I do too, when I pick students. "is he going to stay ?" is not easy to answer |
| 09:08.54 | kblin | with respect to Wine, I don't think I had even used that before |
| 09:09.17 | kblin | and I heard about gsoc like two days before deadline :) |
| 09:09.42 | kblin | luckily it was much easier to get in in 2005 :) |
| 09:10.37 | ihalip | it was the first year, right? |
| 09:10.42 | kblin | yeah |
| 09:10.56 | ihalip | that explains it |
| 09:11.31 | kblin | the "application form" was a multiline text field with a send button that forwarded an email to chris dibona and he then forwarded to the respective orgs |
| 09:12.03 | kblin | by the time I applied (with like 2 hours to go), the website said that about 8,700 applications had been sent so far |
| 09:12.18 | ihalip | whoah |
| 09:12.26 | headache | kblin, you're really a lucky guy :D |
| 09:12.26 | kblin | but from what I've heard, a lot of them were really crappy |
| 09:12.35 | ihalip | my first thought was that there few students back then |
| 09:12.47 | ihalip | there were*. |
| 09:12.50 | kblin | "I'm cool, pick me" |
| 09:12.59 | marcheu | it was first come, first served, for the orgs |
| 09:13.06 | headache | ... |
| 09:13.14 | ihalip | kblin: there still are crappy proposals |
| 09:13.25 | kblin | ihalip: but not that percentage |
| 09:13.53 | kblin | ihalip: out of the 30 proposals Wine got last year, I think there was one app I had to throw out as spam |
| 09:13.54 | ihalip | yes, but some of them do go through and the students get selected |
| 09:13.54 | headache | for propose something a student have to use the application |
| 09:13.55 | *** join/#gsoc x` (~x`@BSN-176-190-153.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) |
| 09:14.07 | ihalip | i know i've seen one last year |
| 09:14.11 | headache | the problem is that 95% of orgs are unknown to students |
| 09:14.38 | headache | except gnome or kde or something related to open source OS |
| 09:15.00 | ihalip | my faculty is great concerning that; we have a few classes which promote open standards and open source software |
| 09:15.09 | kblin | I'm told in 2005 wine got > 60 proposals, and they picked all four that were coherent english :) |
| 09:15.13 | headache | or other orgs require "specialistic" knowledge |
| 09:15.26 | headache | that are difficult to obtain for students |
| 09:15.54 | headache | except if one student in his spare time contribute to some project |
| 09:16.10 | kblin | I don't think that's too different from the years before |
| 09:16.25 | headache | I make an example |
| 09:16.31 | rod_ | :) |
| 09:16.37 | headache | if I want to contribute to vlc or ffmpeg |
| 09:16.47 | headache | I have to know about codecs and related stuffs |
| 09:17.05 | headache | well how many students know this kind of things? |
| 09:17.12 | kblin | shrugs |
| 09:17.15 | ihalip | 0.1% |
| 09:17.20 | rod_ | less |
| 09:17.31 | infinity0 | lol |
| 09:17.46 | infinity0 | i'd like to see anyone justify any number they come up with |
| 09:17.47 | headache | if I want to contribute to some important project like eclipse or some Apache foundation projects |
| 09:17.58 | kblin | to be honest, I did my first GSoC implementing the NTLM security provider for Wine's Security Service Provider Interface |
| 09:17.59 | headache | I have to know platform and internals really well |
| 09:18.12 | infinity0 | it's true that there needs to be some specialist knowledge, but some students do have it, eg. people that were involved with open source stuff already |
| 09:18.15 | ihalip | infinity0: being a student and knowing your colleagues |
| 09:18.26 | headache | not only to contribute in an effective way but also to propose something useful |
| 09:18.40 | kblin | I had the rough concept how Wine supposedly worked and had never heard of NTLM or SSPI before |
| 09:18.42 | infinity0 | also some projects have generic maintenance stuff that doesn't require specialist knowledge |
| 09:18.43 | headache | because one of the key points is also proposing something useful |
| 09:18.55 | headache | kblin, you were lucky |
| 09:19.00 | headache | to be selected |
| 09:19.16 | ihalip | his english skills probably helped ;) |
| 09:19.17 | kblin | so I pulled an all-nighter and read up as much as I could about that to write a good proposal |
| 09:19.24 | infinity0 | headache: so what's your argument? that gsoc is useless? |
| 09:19.35 | infinity0 | any project will require some level of specialist knowledge |
| 09:19.38 | headache | no I think could be improved |
| 09:19.48 | kblin | headache: ah, how? |
| 09:20.08 | *** join/#gsoc emcho (~emcho@shm67-5-88-165-90-188.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 09:20.19 | headache | taking care especially of org who prepare something to help students |
| 09:20.37 | kblin | ihalip: it certainly helps to write your application in english as opposed to gamer slang |
| 09:20.43 | headache | there are accepted org who don't have a single page about GSoC 2010 |
| 09:20.46 | headache | and were selected |
| 09:20.48 | headache | :D |
| 09:20.58 | ihalip | oh damn, i wanted to use 1337 5p33k :( |
| 09:21.03 | kblin | headache: which orgs? |
| 09:21.10 | headache | wait |
| 09:21.13 | headache | :) |
| 09:21.20 | danderson | headache: counter-example to "must be useful" |
| 09:21.24 | danderson | battle for wesnoth is selected. |
| 09:21.26 | headache | I'll provide some example |
| 09:21.33 | danderson | They just happen to be an outstanding open source game |
| 09:21.36 | infinity0 | that's fair enough and i see your point, and it would have helped me a lot last year if the project i picked had better documentation |
| 09:21.48 | danderson | we can only take around 150 orgs. If 30 games apply, it's likely we'll only accept ~2 |
| 09:21.51 | danderson | to maintain diversity |
| 09:22.03 | danderson | feel free to start a summer of gaming if you feel this isn't fair :) |
| 09:22.07 | infinity0 | but helping "too much" is also a bad thing because then the student doesn't get a chance to explore things on their own |
| 09:22.12 | *** join/#gsoc abhijain (~abhishek@218.248.65.243) |
| 09:22.36 | headache | infinity0, could help to have an idea of the project in which student could apply |
| 09:22.39 | ihalip | the main idea is that the student must show interest |
| 09:22.44 | *** join/#gsoc admishra (~admishra@117.96.12.224) |
| 09:22.48 | kblin | danderson: actually there's a handful of gaming-related projects :) |
| 09:22.51 | *** join/#gsoc FlyingFlo (~FlyingFlo@m-65.vc-graz.ac.at) |
| 09:22.53 | infinity0 | headache: sorry, what do you mean? |
| 09:23.05 | danderson | kblin: my point stands, even though my numbers are wrong :) |
| 09:23.11 | kblin | danderson: true |
| 09:23.15 | danderson | (even moreso if there are more projects) |
| 09:23.21 | headache | for example http://www.bluez.org/ |
| 09:23.38 | headache | http://expertlabs.org/ |
| 09:23.38 | infinity0 | some smaller projects don't actually have the resources to provide a comprehensive level of documentation |
| 09:23.45 | headache | yeah |
| 09:24.01 | headache | but what does expertlabs create? |
| 09:24.08 | headache | it's difficult to understand |
| 09:24.12 | danderson | http://hostisdown.org/gsoc/2010 |
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| 09:24.16 | danderson | that's the BlueZ idea lis |
| 09:24.17 | danderson | +t |
| 09:24.27 | danderson | in their application they said they are having problems with the Bluez wiki currently |
| 09:24.47 | danderson | so, yes, it's a bit confusing, but they are a good org and it's not fair to exclude them for technical difficulties. |
| 09:24.51 | infinity0 | headache: have you tried #bluez and asking them for things to do? |
| 09:25.02 | headache | I can go on |
| 09:25.07 | *** join/#gsoc admishra (~admishra@117.96.12.224) |
| 09:25.07 | headache | with other examples |
| 09:25.11 | headache | but it's not the case |
| 09:25.23 | *** join/#gsoc ideamonk__ (~ideamonk@117.192.138.1) |
| 09:25.38 | headache | infinity0, sure they could help me but there are some orgs that have a little mailing list activity or no irc channel |
| 09:25.59 | danderson | expertlabs is an org which writes software for crowdsourcing and democracy experiments |
| 09:26.11 | kblin | danderson: a quick check of the accepted orgs list shows no less than 7 projects with *game* tags |
| 09:26.21 | danderson | their site even says so: software to help government interact with citizens |
| 09:26.30 | kblin | danderson: that's pretty impressive, I think :) |
| 09:26.33 | ojwb | spyware then! |
| 09:26.34 | headache | I'll provide a counter example to show an org that make a good job |
| 09:26.35 | headache | for me |
| 09:26.38 | headache | but wasn't selected |
| 09:26.48 | danderson | go ahead, I'll even tell you why it was rejected :) |
| 09:26.52 | rod_ | lol |
| 09:28.01 | headache | http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/GoogleSummerOfCode/ |
| 09:28.14 | ihalip | xwiki wasn't selected? |
| 09:28.17 | headache | there's also a lot of doc about XWiki in general |
| 09:28.19 | headache | no |
| 09:28.29 | *** join/#gsoc abhijain (~abhishek@218.248.65.243) |
| 09:28.31 | headache | I think they did a good job |
| 09:28.40 | headache | also irc-channel is active and also mailing list |
| 09:28.43 | ojwb | thinks they've taken part before |
| 09:28.43 | ihalip | actually, some of the xwiki developers and mentors are teachers of mine :) |
| 09:28.47 | headache | very supportive regards to students |
| 09:28.49 | ihalip | ojwb: they did |
| 09:28.59 | danderson | they've been in GSoC and received support from Google for 5 years running |
| 09:29.03 | kblin | ojwb: they did in 2007-2009 |
| 09:29.04 | headache | yes i know |
| 09:29.12 | danderson | we decided to give them a break for 1 year, to give other orgs a chance |
| 09:29.43 | ihalip | danderson, may i ask about another org since we're at the subject? |
| 09:30.07 | danderson | so, yes, I agree, they're a great org. There were 360 great orgs. We only have 150 spots. |
| 09:30.13 | danderson | ihalip: yes? |
| 09:30.14 | headache | however I wish Google exclude org that don't give support to students |
| 09:30.20 | ihalip | what about Qt? |
| 09:30.22 | infinity0 | headache: so, you suggest that gsoc organisers should take into consideration how well-documented the org is / how much support the org provides? |
| 09:30.30 | kblin | headache: they do |
| 09:30.34 | danderson | we do take that into account |
| 09:30.34 | headache | yes I think is right |
| 09:30.47 | danderson | and the projects you cited have an excellent track record of caring for students |
| 09:30.52 | danderson | despite your perception of them |
| 09:31.16 | kblin | headache: you're aware that the students get to rate the org as well? |
| 09:31.19 | ojwb | danderson: only 7 rubbish orgs applied? |
| 09:31.28 | headache | well I'll give you some feedback at the end of selection |
| 09:31.40 | headache | but not a rant a constructive way |
| 09:31.40 | danderson | ojwb: no, a few more, but on the whole, the quality was very high. |
| 09:31.50 | danderson | headache: that would be very helpful, yes. |
| 09:32.07 | ihalip | danderson: what about Qt? why weren't they selected? |
| 09:32.39 | danderson | ihalip: their application was good, there just wasn't enough org slots, unfortunately |
| 09:32.46 | danderson | those are the cases that suck the most :( |
| 09:32.52 | headache | :| |
| 09:33.17 | infinity0 | how come google have decided to keep the slots constant for the past 2 years? before that it was expanding iirc? |
| 09:33.36 | ojwb | it went down a little last year in fact |
| 09:33.37 | danderson | infinity0: the first few years we were exploring how to manage a program such as GSoC |
| 09:33.43 | x` | all in all, you need more dough to make all the cookies :) |
| 09:33.44 | ihalip | 2008 was the peak i think |
| 09:33.48 | ojwb | yes |
| 09:33.52 | danderson | we were sort of making it up as we went along :) |
| 09:34.03 | *** join/#gsoc rajeshsr (~rajeshsr@59.96.7.79) |
| 09:34.06 | rajeshsr | hi all |
| 09:34.10 | danderson | in the end, we decided that given the limited resources of the open source team, 150 is a manageable number |
| 09:34.17 | infinity0 | oh, ok |
| 09:34.18 | rajeshsr | We are running a programming contest here: https://www.spoj.pl/SAMOPC10/ |
| 09:34.28 | rajeshsr | check out the problem set! you will love it! |
| 09:34.38 | rajeshsr | sorry to be off-topic! |
| 09:34.38 | *** mode/#gsoc [+o danderson] by ChanServ |
| 09:34.42 | *** kick/#gsoc [rajeshsr!~dave@atlas.natulte.net] by danderson (spam) |
| 09:34.52 | infinity0 | are there plans to expand its resources? |
| 09:35.12 | *** join/#gsoc rajeshsr (~rajeshsr@59.96.7.79) |
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| 09:35.20 | rajeshsr | danderson, sorry! i apologize! |
| 09:35.22 | danderson | infinity0: not as far as I know. The limiting factor isn't really money at this point, it's human bandwidth |
| 09:35.35 | infinity0 | ah ok |
| 09:35.44 | rajeshsr | I thought people may be interested as it is also about coding! |
| 09:35.56 | danderson | rajeshsr: no worries. Just don't randomly join channels and paste URLs, it pisses people off |
| 09:36.16 | x` | that will be a good gsoc project one day ... increasing human bandwidth |
| 09:36.19 | danderson | infinity0: contrary to intuition maybe, managing orgs for Google is a pretty hard job |
| 09:36.20 | rajeshsr | danderson, yeah! ok! |
| 09:36.28 | kblin | the fact that you looked like a spambot didn't really help |
| 09:36.38 | danderson | and more orgs than 150 just becomes unmanageable |
| 09:36.43 | danderson | so the students suffer |
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| 09:36.47 | *** join/#gsoc isridhar (~isridhar@220.227.254.115) |
| 09:36.57 | danderson | likewise, less than 150, there isn't enough diversity for students to choose from |
| 09:37.06 | *** join/#gsoc marta (~marta@lib59-1-82-229-139-231.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 09:37.50 | danderson | so, 150 is nice, and it translates to ~1000 students slots, which matches the funding we have |
| 09:38.04 | kblin | diversity is a point that comes into play for org selection as well, I think |
| 09:38.21 | danderson | yup |
| 09:38.43 | infinity0 | right, i understand - it's great that you guys have a program like this already, i'm just being optimistic heh |
| 09:38.44 | danderson | at one point we explicitly decided we couldn't take any more CMSes |
| 09:38.50 | x` | i have a question about the orgs too ... what happened to Ruby central and RoR? did they apply at all? |
| 09:38.57 | *** join/#gsoc codingBee (~d2d43dfb@gateway/web/freenode/x-fedrsmcpegeexury) |
| 09:39.00 | danderson | otherwise >50% of the program would have been various CMS projects |
| 09:39.04 | danderson | x`: looking |
| 09:39.05 | Dark_Shikari | lol |
| 09:39.10 | Dark_Shikari | 50%? that's amazing |
| 09:39.10 | infinity0 | lol, they need consolidating |
| 09:39.20 | Dark_Shikari | guess it's not too surprising in this age of "web 2.0" |
| 09:39.21 | kblin | true that |
| 09:39.22 | rod_ | whats a CMS project |
| 09:39.28 | infinity0 | content management system |
| 09:39.29 | Dark_Shikari | CMSs are so easy to make that everyone and their dog makes one |
| 09:39.35 | infinity0 | wikis should use git as a backend and some standard syntax |
| 09:39.40 | infinity0 | instead of reinventing the wheel every time :/ |
| 09:39.43 | ihalip | rod_: content management system; joomla, drupal, wordpress and all that |
| 09:39.46 | danderson | x`: I don't see ruby.org in the candidate list, or rails |
| 09:39.53 | rod_ | thanks |
| 09:39.55 | x` | Dark_Shikari: my dog never made a cms ... i wish he did though |
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| 09:40.01 | danderson | is there any company that could have applied in the name of ruby/rails? |
| 09:40.04 | danderson | x`: ^ |
| 09:40.18 | x` | hm, no i don't think so |
| 09:40.18 | infinity0 | x`you need to work *together* with your dog |
| 09:40.25 | ihalip | haha |
| 09:40.26 | *** join/#gsoc gitte (~jircii@fw11v.embl.de) |
| 09:40.27 | x` | ror was present last year |
| 09:40.41 | x` | thanks danderson |
| 09:40.48 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: yeah. I recently had to pick one, took me a while to sort though all that matched my criteria list of "small, fast, lean" |
| 09:40.50 | x` | i just wish there was more ruby i guess :) |
| 09:40.57 | danderson | yeah, I don't see any match for *ruby*, *rails* |
| 09:41.04 | x` | google went the way of the pytho |
| 09:41.05 | x` | +n |
| 09:41.11 | danderson | I also looked for 37 signals and engine yard, but they're not there either |
| 09:41.16 | kblin | gitte: morning :) |
| 09:41.17 | Dark_Shikari | sounds awesome. we get to spend another year making fun of ruby again |
| 09:41.20 | Dark_Shikari | without offending anyone |
| 09:41.28 | x` | ehehe |
| 09:41.33 | danderson | x`: Google's preference has really nothing to do with it :) |
| 09:41.47 | danderson | otherwise we would have rejected Haskell.org (to my great sadness) |
| 09:41.58 | *** part/#gsoc codingBee (~d2d43dfb@gateway/web/freenode/x-fedrsmcpegeexury) |
| 09:42.05 | x` | yeah I think so too, if they aren't even on the candidates list |
| 09:42.06 | x` | oh well |
| 09:42.17 | kblin | x`: google code is using mercurial and svn and yet there's other VCS projects in gsoc :) |
| 09:42.31 | danderson | honestly, if the "ruby foundation" or whatever the ruby umbrella organization calls itself, had applied |
| 09:42.37 | danderson | they would have probably been selected |
| 09:42.40 | *** join/#gsoc cbx (~cbx___@unaffiliated/cbx) |
| 09:42.42 | Dark_Shikari | and google themselves use perforce |
| 09:42.51 | danderson | Dark_Shikari: to our *great* frustration |
| 09:42.52 | Dark_Shikari | probably because they're trying to torture new employees |
| 09:43.01 | kblin | but that's not open source :) |
| 09:43.02 | danderson | we're trying to scale it way beyond its design limits |
| 09:43.07 | x` | i like seeing haskell on that list though, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy :) |
| 09:43.14 | danderson | but it's hard to move, given the tool ecosystem we have |
| 09:43.25 | Dark_Shikari | danderson: well the real problem is that it's also just a case of the development model not working with it |
| 09:43.41 | Dark_Shikari | in that with a huge huge huge system, you need a different dev model |
| 09:43.47 | danderson | Dark_Shikari: meh, the development model works quite well actually |
| 09:43.53 | Dark_Shikari | you can't just treat it like an svn server where everyoen commits to one box |
| 09:43.55 | danderson | it's just that the software doesn't scale |
| 09:44.05 | danderson | Perforce doesn't have our expertise at scaling across hundreds of machines :P |
| 09:44.08 | Dark_Shikari | lol |
| 09:44.10 | Dark_Shikari | run git ;) |
| 09:44.40 | infinity0 | i would've thought some googler would have written a git-perforce interface in their spare time? |
| 09:44.47 | danderson | we have a wrapper around git and perforce that a few of us use, yes |
| 09:44.49 | ryaether | i have a question: in the user's guide it says "you may submit up to 20 proposals, but only one will be accepted" does this mean only one proposal will be accepted or that you can only participate in one of your accepted proposals? |
| 09:44.52 | kblin | there is one |
| 09:44.59 | danderson | ryaether: only one will be accepted |
| 09:45.12 | danderson | the orgs get to fight to the death for you if multiple orgs want you |
| 09:45.13 | Dark_Shikari | and if you submit 20 proposals, someone will probably hit you over the head |
| 09:45.17 | x` | :D |
| 09:45.22 | danderson | if you submit 20 proposals, they probably all suck |
| 09:45.23 | *** join/#gsoc llnz (~lee@203-100-223-121.callplus.net.nz) |
| 09:45.29 | ryaether | so how is that decided? for example if i submit 3 proposals and 2 are accepted which one will i be allowed to work on? |
| 09:45.30 | danderson | no offense, it's just historically true :) |
| 09:45.45 | danderson | ryaether: usually, the orgs discuss it |
| 09:45.59 | infinity0 | ryaether: both will be "allowed", there's a sorting-out period after apps close |
| 09:46.06 | danderson | eg. if one *really* wants you, and the other would like you, but has alternative students, then they'll release you |
| 09:46.07 | infinity0 | where one is actaully picked |
| 09:46.20 | ryaether | oh ok thank you danderson and infinity0 |
| 09:46.36 | danderson | if they can't agree, and there aren't any optimization constraints to consider (ie. one org would have 0 students if they didn't get you) |
| 09:46.36 | kblin | sometimes the orgs even ask the student :) |
| 09:46.45 | danderson | then you may get asked to choose |
| 09:46.51 | danderson | however, this is *very* rare, don't count on it. |
| 09:47.03 | kblin | agrees with danderson |
| 09:47.14 | danderson | Conflicts are commonly resolved before it becomes a problem |
| 09:47.24 | Dark_Shikari | really, that's rare? |
| 09:47.32 | danderson | it was common in the first few years |
| 09:47.33 | Dark_Shikari | often we have students tell us which they would prefer |
| 09:47.40 | *** join/#gsoc lunaticare (~midgop@ip-95-221-20-129.bb.netbynet.ru) |
| 09:47.45 | danderson | Dark_Shikari: oh, the student can tell you their preference in the application |
| 09:47.55 | Dark_Shikari | we've had some that applied to both x264 and ffmpeg, and if I was going to accept them (and they told us they preferred us) we would go tell ffmpeg so they don't accept them too. |
| 09:47.56 | danderson | I'm talking about cases where N orgs accept the same student |
| 09:48.11 | danderson | in that case, the conflict is usually resolved without asking the student |
| 09:48.19 | danderson | by letting the orgs figure it out |
| 09:48.36 | sdumitriu | That's bad |
| 09:48.47 | infinity0 | what fraction of students actaully apply to multiple orgs? |
| 09:48.48 | sdumitriu | The student might really like one org than the others |
| 09:49.03 | Dark_Shikari | well, that's why I usually ask. |
| 09:49.04 | sdumitriu | And he would do much better with a project he really likes |
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| 09:49.44 | rod_ | how many students usually apply to each org? |
| 09:49.51 | ryaether | well i believe I may apply to more than one organization as I would really like to be accepted and earn some real world experience |
| 09:49.59 | marcheu | it seems students say each proposal is their favourite, they fear being ranked down otherwise |
| 09:50.08 | infinity0 | sdumitriu: there's a formal IRC discussion after applications close so the student does have input to the process |
| 09:50.14 | Dark_Shikari | rod_: completely depends on each org |
| 09:50.22 | sdumitriu | Yes, I'm an org admin so I know |
| 09:50.32 | Dark_Shikari | ranges from 3 to 100+ |
| 09:50.44 | Dark_Shikari | When there's 100+, though, keep in mind most are total garbage. |
| 09:51.02 | ojwb | infinity0: that meeting is for the orgs, not students |
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| 09:51.28 | ojwb | the bottom line is, don't submit a proposal for a project you wouldn't be happy doing |
| 09:51.46 | gitte | danderson: it is unfortunate that a certain guy who talked about Git at Google did not exactly try to make friends with the Subversion people, right? |
| 09:52.09 | ryaether | ojwb: i think i understand the value of your advice now |
| 09:52.10 | infinity0 | oh? i thought last year the students also joined in that, nvmd |
| 09:52.24 | danderson | gitte: not really. Linus pissed off everyone in that room, and embarassed git users more than anyone else by his behavior. |
| 09:52.26 | kblin | gitte: it's not as if that certain guy is famous for getting along with people well |
| 09:52.43 | Dark_Shikari | well, linus is a professional troll |
| 09:52.44 | Dark_Shikari | and I love him for it |
| 09:52.47 | danderson | the objections to widespread use of git are purely technical, and unfortunately all confidential |
| 09:52.49 | x` | hehe |
| 09:52.50 | infinity0 | lol i never knew this |
| 09:52.51 | danderson | so I can't discuss it |
| 09:52.52 | Dark_Shikari | he can go out and say "Windows 7 is pretty good" |
| 09:52.59 | Dark_Shikari | and it's HILARIOUS |
| 09:53.14 | infinity0 | oh i remember that photo of him next to the win 7 store in japan |
| 09:53.17 | Dark_Shikari | Yeah |
| 09:53.34 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: dunno, I can come up with a list of worse CIFS implementations than the one from Win7 :) |
| 09:53.34 | danderson | gitte: let's just say that Google uses many source control systems, both internally and externally, and that we're continuously evaluating our options. |
| 09:53.35 | SukhE | And how can we forget the love he expressed for C++ once. |
| 09:53.38 | gitte | danderson: even if you cannot discuss them, I know a few of them, and I know somebody who knows how Mercurial support was bolted into Google Code, and thinks that Git could be bolted in much better. |
| 09:53.42 | sdumitriu | I really liked that talk |
| 09:53.47 | ojwb | somewhere i have a photo of rms speaking with a windows desktop on the projector behind him |
| 09:53.50 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: I know, it's not actually that bad, it's just an awesome troll |
| 09:53.50 | infinity0 | danderson: lol srsly confidential? does it reveal info about google's ub3r l33t h4x |
| 09:53.53 | gitte | danderson: that is the most sensible stance, anyway. |
| 09:54.05 | danderson | gitte: then that person doesn't really know what they're talking about (about git and Google Code) |
| 09:54.07 | ojwb | pretty sure he wasn't aware of it |
| 09:54.12 | gitte | danderson: always use the best tool at hand, or: to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. |
| 09:54.25 | danderson | I'm sorry, but having worked on the relevant source code *yesterday*, I can tell you that :) |
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| 09:54.33 | gitte | danderson: hehe. |
| 09:54.40 | bnaik | not much activity today |
| 09:54.54 | danderson | however, since git 1.6 and the smart HTTP transport, git support for Google Code has gone from "not gonna happen" to "feasible" |
| 09:54.54 | x` | bnaik i think you're missing out :) |
| 09:55.01 | Dark_Shikari | gitte: Any sufficiently badly designed system will be hard to extend to support X |
| 09:55.03 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: true. he's brilliant at that. we should have had him around for the "advanced trolling" session on the last mentor summit :) |
| 09:55.06 | danderson | so, kudos to the git community for stepping up to criticism :) |
| 09:55.06 | Dark_Shikari | regardless of how simple it may seem to support X. |
| 09:55.09 | bnaik | :D |
| 09:55.17 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: oh yes. |
| 09:55.22 | gitte | danderson: it was spearce, not the Git community. |
| 09:55.38 | gitte | danderson: generally, the Git community reacts very badly to criticism, much to my chagrin. |
| 09:56.21 | gitte | danderson: for example, when I started a big thread last year, describing several simple and trivial issues that make Git hard to use, and that are totally unnecessary, the thread was not exactly welcomed. |
| 09:56.37 | x` | btw, kudos to google for that python class on google code |
| 09:56.39 | Dark_Shikari | well, generally such threads on the ML are not very well accepted |
| 09:56.49 | Dark_Shikari | I haven't found any project where they are |
| 09:56.53 | Dark_Shikari | largely because they turn into whinefests |
| 09:57.08 | kblin | shrugs |
| 09:57.09 | Dark_Shikari | Of course, if you include a PATCH with that ML post... magically you get a nice response :) |
| 09:57.14 | sdumitriu | We do (XWiki) |
| 09:57.24 | infinity0 | some people take these things too personally |
| 09:57.25 | sdumitriu | All feedback is good feedback |
| 09:57.26 | kblin | I guess every project has it's flame wars |
| 09:57.52 | ajuonline | kblin: ++ |
| 09:57.52 | gitte | Dark_Shikari: I tried to shut every whiner down by saying that they should not complain unless they do so constructively. |
| 09:57.55 | kblin | sdumitriu: no, not really, there's clear trolls |
| 09:58.00 | Dark_Shikari | I've found in general projects don't like people who tell them what to do but don't give them any contributions |
| 09:58.04 | Dark_Shikari | i.e. if you say "this sucks, here's a patch to fix it" |
| 09:58.11 | Dark_Shikari | people are 100x more likely to care and agree with you |
| 09:58.24 | kblin | sdumitriu: if you don't believe me, hang out at #winehq for a while ;) |
| 09:58.26 | Dark_Shikari | Even if your patch sucks |
| 09:58.36 | sdumitriu | Hm, indeed, we didn't have real trolls so far |
| 09:58.49 | sdumitriu | Just normal complaints |
| 09:58.57 | kblin | sdumitriu: it's certainly a matter of the user community |
| 09:59.02 | x` | sdumitriu: what's your org? |
| 09:59.06 | sdumitriu | XWiki |
| 09:59.10 | sdumitriu | Not accepted this year |
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| 09:59.16 | Dark_Shikari | heh, winehq. |
| 09:59.17 | kblin | sdumitriu: the fact that most wine users are teenage gamers certainly doesn't help |
| 09:59.23 | Dark_Shikari | must be full of people bitching about games not working |
| 09:59.24 | x` | oh yeah, read about that. |
| 09:59.28 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: I call it #whinehq |
| 09:59.35 | x` | hehe |
| 09:59.36 | Dark_Shikari | Good thing we have a Secret Company who is paying lots of money and effort to get all new games working on wine. |
| 09:59.53 | kblin | we have? |
| 10:00.05 | kblin | I'll have to give them my account number :) |
| 10:00.07 | Dark_Shikari | indeed we do. I work for them ;) |
| 10:00.21 | infinity0 | kblin: er, i think it's wrong to jump into the conclusion someone is a troll |
| 10:00.30 | infinity0 | i doubt there are that many people with that much spare time on their hands |
| 10:00.31 | Dark_Shikari | for example, one might notice that starcraft II now works on wine |
| 10:00.34 | Ian_Corne | There's a few paying software pieces that use wine, right? |
| 10:00.39 | Dark_Shikari | (or maybe not in trunk yet, there's a patch at least) |
| 10:00.40 | infinity0 | it's more likely bad communication or they don't understand your questions |
| 10:01.01 | Dark_Shikari | Ian_Corne: this is a company whose entire business depends on games working on wine as a prerequisite |
| 10:01.03 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: haven't tried that yet. but yes, there's a couple of companies that play nice :) |
| 10:01.13 | infinity0 | and with wine it's probably just some frustrated gamer that can't get their fave game to play |
| 10:02.58 | kblin | infinity0: sorry, but if someone drops by in my IRC channel and calls me an idiot for not making his cracked game work, I'll reserve the right to call that someone a troll :) |
| 10:03.18 | Dark_Shikari | not a troll, just stupid ;) |
| 10:03.18 | infinity0 | lol that's not trolling, but whatever |
| 10:03.59 | kblin | my favourite is "If you don't help me now I'll reinstall windows!" |
| 10:04.02 | infinity0 | with a troll it's impossible to extract any amount of constructive criticism but with insults you generally can |
| 10:04.27 | kblin | infinity0: there's just no way in hell we'll try to make cracked games work |
| 10:04.44 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: well 99% of the time, if it doesn't work cracked, it doesn't work in the real version either |
| 10:04.50 | infinity0 | oh right that yeah |
| 10:04.52 | Dark_Shikari | and in other cases, it's more likely to work cracked, due to eliminating the DRM |
| 10:05.01 | Dark_Shikari | because DRM is notoriously not very cross-platform |
| 10:05.11 | gitte | kblin: the common answer to such people is "plonk", I hear. |
| 10:05.13 | Dark_Shikari | I recall a number of games that people had to crack to work on wine |
| 10:05.15 | infinity0 | kblin: i meant insults about legitimate things but yeah |
| 10:05.18 | Dark_Shikari | even though they owned them. |
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| 10:05.26 | headache | where is the photo with rms |
| 10:05.32 | headache | and windows behind him? |
| 10:05.33 | headache | :D |
| 10:05.35 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: true, but we actually try to make the DRM work |
| 10:06.10 | kblin | gitte: my usual answer is "Try not to get hit by the door on your way out" |
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| 10:06.44 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: some are impossible, of course |
| 10:06.52 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: like that sony rootkit |
| 10:07.07 | infinity0 | what do you mean by "make the DRM work" |
| 10:07.34 | infinity0 | as in make it be restrictive, or just make the program not crash |
| 10:07.37 | Dark_Shikari | true "working drm" is an oxymoron ;) |
| 10:07.46 | kblin | infinity0: well, to support whatever the game is trying to do to make sure it's "not stolen" whatever that may be |
| 10:08.01 | gitte | kblin: too much to type. |
| 10:08.11 | kblin | I know at some point in time we had the MS "WGA" check working :) |
| 10:08.35 | headache | eheheh |
| 10:08.37 | neL | z |
| 10:08.43 | infinity0 | lol but there are more urgent issues to work on on wine! stop wasting your time :P |
| 10:09.13 | kblin | now it phones home and claims you're using a stolen copy even on genuine windows from time to time |
| 10:09.35 | gitte | infinity0: usually I frown very much when somebody tells me what I should try to work on... I guess the same happens with the WINE people. |
| 10:10.04 | ajuonline | nobody likes to be told, what to work on :D |
| 10:10.04 | kblin | infinity0: as gitte said, don't try to tell me what I should work on in my spare time |
| 10:10.31 | kblin | my boss gets to tell me what I should work on at work, but he pays me |
| 10:10.49 | infinity0 | hm, don't take it personally, i supposed i should have worded it differently then |
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| 10:11.32 | kblin | infinity0: you probably should. many people in open source are allergic to that kind of stuff |
| 10:12.05 | infinity0 | lol you mean the "i'm doing this for free so shut up" counter? |
| 10:12.29 | kblin | in this case it doesn't affect me personally, as I don't work on DRM crap :) |
| 10:12.29 | Dark_Shikari | well IMO one should generally do what users need, with two big exceptions: |
| 10:12.36 | Dark_Shikari | 1) there is so much to do that there's no way you can do everything |
| 10:12.38 | ojwb | gitte: feedback is useful, the "starting a big thread" part I'm less keen on |
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| 10:12.53 | Dark_Shikari | 2) doing X would be Really Really Hard, and you don't feel like it =p |
| 10:13.13 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: I fully agree |
| 10:13.27 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: most request for wine fall into 1 and 2 :) |
| 10:13.43 | gitte | ojwb: I did not intend it to be a big thread. |
| 10:14.11 | ojwb | at the risk of potentially sounding arrogant, what users ask for may not be what they need |
| 10:14.20 | Dark_Shikari | ojwb: of course |
| 10:14.24 | Dark_Shikari | that's assumed |
| 10:14.31 | gitte | ojwb: I intended it to be a mail, where everybody recognizes that I am not talking out of thin air, agrees with me, and a few people start implementing of that stuff which they are personally interested in. |
| 10:14.34 | Dark_Shikari | and also, some users want different things from other users |
| 10:14.38 | ojwb | phew, someone else is sounding more arrogant! |
| 10:14.49 | Dark_Shikari | Like in our project. Most users want it to Just Work |
| 10:14.53 | Dark_Shikari | a few users want MORE KNOBS!!!! |
| 10:14.59 | gitte | Dark_Shikari: the problem is that no good deed goes unpunished. |
| 10:15.04 | Dark_Shikari | because tweaking MORE KNOBS makes things better |
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| 10:15.19 | kblin | ojwb: I remember that thread, I think. the starter really was "this is what we're not doing well, and that's how I think we can improve" |
| 10:15.21 | Dark_Shikari | and whenever we add features that make knob-tweaking even more useless, the knob-tweakers hate it |
| 10:15.26 | gitte | Dark_Shikari: so, if you really listen to users and implement what they want, they do not bother so much as to thank you, but continue to ask things from you. |
| 10:15.33 | Dark_Shikari | gitte: of course |
| 10:15.35 | Dark_Shikari | this is assumed ;) |
| 10:15.50 | ojwb | gitte: well, I'd guessed it wasn't completely deliberate... |
| 10:16.13 | Redache | To barge in on the conversation, usability is the key thing and if they want features that can't be done with a reasonable amount of usability, then it's better to explain why |
| 10:16.30 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: those users would love smb.conf :) |
| 10:16.45 | kblin | Redache: in general I'd agree |
| 10:17.20 | gitte | kblin: indeed, I tried to be constructive, just as I asked from other people in that thread. |
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| 10:18.27 | kblin | shrugs |
| 10:18.38 | kblin | open source is a lot about personal ego, it seems |
| 10:18.39 | gitte | thinks that kblin shrugs a lot ;-) |
| 10:18.59 | kblin | I also say "hm" alot |
| 10:19.18 | gitte | kblin: well, think about it in economical terms: Open Source developers invest time, and they invariably want something back which they deem equal in worth. |
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| 10:19.36 | ojwb | flamewars? |
| 10:19.41 | kblin | hehe |
| 10:19.51 | Redache | That depends entirely on the dev |
| 10:19.52 | infinity0 | i wouldn't say "open source" is about that, more the developer's reaction to be put in that sort of environment |
| 10:20.01 | infinity0 | heh Redache |
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| 10:20.51 | Redache | It's like art |
| 10:21.06 | kblin | Redache: I've yet to see a developer who'd be happy to see a piece of code obsoleted and removed that he spent weeks and weeks on some years ago |
| 10:21.24 | Redache | The more you create, the more you get obsessed with what you create |
| 10:21.24 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: I would be happy to if I considered the code crap |
| 10:21.32 | Dark_Shikari | if I considered it good, obviously |
| 10:21.34 | infinity0 | i should like to think that i'd do that if the time was right, kblin |
| 10:21.43 | Dark_Shikari | but there's definitely code I wrote years that I'd consider crap. |
| 10:21.44 | infinity0 | but meh, i've never been in that situation yet |
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| 10:22.15 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: there's that |
| 10:22.21 | Dark_Shikari | *years ago |
| 10:22.25 | ojwb | there's certainly code like that I wrote that I'd love to see replaced |
| 10:22.51 | Dark_Shikari | I like having the best code. this means that if anyone can write better than mine, I don't see why it can't replace it |
| 10:23.02 | ojwb | sometimes it was a quick bodge which has lived too long, sometimes it didn't work out as well as I'd hoped in practice |
| 10:23.14 | Dark_Shikari | plus, given the way we do code reviews, everything ends up as everyone's code by the time of commit |
| 10:23.33 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: that probably helps |
| 10:23.46 | ojwb | it's probably true that I have a bias towards my own code |
| 10:23.53 | ojwb | better the devil you know, etc |
| 10:24.06 | Redache | This is where I have difficulty in helping others |
| 10:24.07 | Dark_Shikari | I have a bias towards code I understand |
| 10:24.10 | Dark_Shikari | which may or may not be my own code |
| 10:24.19 | Dark_Shikari | Though even that isn't always true |
| 10:24.21 | Redache | because sometimes I look at someone elses code and the only thing that comes into my head is "eeeewww" |
| 10:24.39 | Dark_Shikari | we have a ton of assembly code from a 2008 SOC student (who still contributes) that I don't fully understand |
| 10:24.41 | ojwb | Dark_Shikari: true, though naturally I tend to understand my own more than the same code someone else wrote (or mainly wrote) |
| 10:24.49 | Dark_Shikari | and my response is of course "it's brilliant, because it's insanely fast and better than anything I can write" |
| 10:24.55 | Dark_Shikari | not "it's not my code, ew" |
| 10:25.12 | infinity0 | cool, what project are you Dark_Shikari? |
| 10:25.14 | Redache | It depends on the quality |
| 10:25.31 | Redache | I've seen Java code that would make people have nightmares |
| 10:25.32 | Dark_Shikari | x264 project. |
| 10:25.40 | Dark_Shikari | also, the other issue is that we code review every line |
| 10:25.44 | Dark_Shikari | so we don't _commit_ code that is awful |
| 10:25.54 | Dark_Shikari | Usually, at least. |
| 10:25.59 | Dark_Shikari | There's always legacy code that is ugly. |
| 10:26.07 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: how many developers do you have, and how many lines of code? |
| 10:26.07 | Dark_Shikari | and everyone is always happy to kill that stuff. |
| 10:26.21 | kblin | I wonder how that'd scale for other projects |
| 10:26.34 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: ~65KLOC, 2 main devs, about ~3-4 minor devs, and another half dozen periodic patch contributors |
| 10:26.56 | Dark_Shikari | our rule is that every single patch is reviewed by, at a minimum, both main devs |
| 10:27.08 | Dark_Shikari | Preferably some of the minor devs too. |
| 10:27.19 | Dark_Shikari | basically we just post the patches on IRC and ask for review, and other people look them over. |
| 10:27.24 | thiago_home | that's a lot of reviewing |
| 10:27.25 | Dark_Shikari | Of course it's assumed the patch poster has tested it first. |
| 10:27.35 | Dark_Shikari | so we generally don't test for correctness much |
| 10:27.55 | Dark_Shikari | IMO the reviewing saves time |
| 10:28.02 | Dark_Shikari | every minute spent on reviewing is 10 minutes less spent on fixing bugs later |
| 10:28.11 | Dark_Shikari | and I know this for a fact just given the number of bugs we do find ;) |
| 10:28.21 | Dark_Shikari | (during review, that is) |
| 10:28.27 | thiago_home | agreed |
| 10:28.37 | kblin | true |
| 10:29.03 | Dark_Shikari | ffmpeg does the same thing |
| 10:29.06 | Dark_Shikari | every significant patch is reviewed |
| 10:29.09 | Dark_Shikari | and they have 400KLOC+ |
| 10:29.20 | kblin | but I somehow doubt that'd work for a project with 15-20 "main devs" |
| 10:29.25 | Dark_Shikari | and they have more than 15-20 main devs |
| 10:29.31 | thiago_home | we have 2 million and we try to review as much as we can |
| 10:29.34 | thiago_home | it's not always possible |
| 10:29.48 | Dark_Shikari | now, I'd say ffmpeg's review is less thorough |
| 10:29.55 | Dark_Shikari | I'd say the best way to do it with a large project is to make it distributed |
| 10:30.06 | Dark_Shikari | with x264, both the main devs understand every line of code in the program (almost) |
| 10:30.10 | Dark_Shikari | with a 2MLOC project, nobody does |
| 10:30.14 | thiago_home | yeah |
| 10:30.18 | Dark_Shikari | so you should have things reviewed by whoever understands that part |
| 10:30.24 | thiago_home | you need maintainers for smaller sections of code |
| 10:30.27 | Dark_Shikari | ffmpeg does that |
| 10:30.33 | Dark_Shikari | each file has a maintainer |
| 10:30.38 | Dark_Shikari | and they can commit changes unreviewed |
| 10:30.44 | Dark_Shikari | and review other peoples' changes to that file. |
| 10:31.00 | kblin | interesting concept |
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| 10:31.02 | Dark_Shikari | the main problem is not enough maintainers; given no maintainer, maintainership defaults to "michael" |
| 10:31.04 | thiago_home | we have: Reviewed-By: Trust Me |
| 10:31.07 | thiago_home | :-) |
| 10:31.11 | Dark_Shikari | specifically in the case of older files |
| 10:31.15 | kblin | hehe |
| 10:31.19 | Dark_Shikari | and things where the people who wrote them are no longer around |
| 10:31.28 | Dark_Shikari | and Michael is utterly overworked |
| 10:31.43 | infinity0 | i would've thought it'd be the only thing to do, how else would you manage a large project? |
| 10:32.03 | infinity0 | you can take the analogy of an OS being a single project and you have different maintainers for different programs / modules |
| 10:32.03 | Dark_Shikari | michael reviews basically everything on the ffmpeg ML singlehandedly |
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| 10:32.05 | Dark_Shikari | and it's scary |
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| 10:32.16 | Dark_Shikari | the "hidden saint of linux multimedia" |
| 10:32.30 | bnaik | gawd |
| 10:32.34 | Dark_Shikari | http://snackbox.org/~snacky/mn.html |
| 10:32.36 | *** part/#gsoc sdumitriu (~sdumitriu@lib59-1-82-229-139-231.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 10:32.40 | Dark_Shikari | he has HALF of all commits to ffmpeg |
| 10:33.02 | Dark_Shikari | and apparently he still uses a pentium 2 or something |
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| 10:33.24 | ojwb | probably reviews patches while waiting for it to compile |
| 10:33.35 | kblin | that'd help |
| 10:33.41 | bnaik | we can contribute ang gift him a mac |
| 10:33.57 | thiago_home | "The number one excuse for slacking off at work: my code is compiling" |
| 10:34.00 | Dark_Shikari | thiago_home: lol |
| 10:34.02 | Dark_Shikari | indeed. |
| 10:34.21 | Dark_Shikari | also, he cannot spell |
| 10:34.24 | kblin | infinity0: you have a bunch of developers and everyone checks in his patches when he has them |
| 10:34.42 | kblin | infinity0: I'm not saying that it's a good way to do it, but it certainly is a way to do it :) |
| 10:34.46 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: lol |
| 10:34.48 | infinity0 | lol ok |
| 10:34.50 | Dark_Shikari | that is a bit of a disaster |
| 10:34.57 | Dark_Shikari | the last time someone "just checked something in" in x264, it broke things |
| 10:35.01 | Dark_Shikari | we haven't done that for a while =p |
| 10:35.10 | thiago_home | pushed several unreviewed commits last night |
| 10:35.23 | Dark_Shikari | it's actually gotten to the point where I feel uncomfortable pushing unreviewed commits to anything |
| 10:35.34 | Dark_Shikari | and it's annoying when working at companies where they _expect_ you to do that. |
| 10:35.37 | Dark_Shikari | it just feels _wrong_. |
| 10:35.39 | thiago_home | but, we have an automated test system |
| 10:35.45 | infinity0 | we have two repos, one is a shadow of the other which is fast-forwarded when the relevant commits have been reviewed |
| 10:35.49 | thiago_home | if I break anything, my commits won't end up in the stable branch |
| 10:35.55 | thiago_home | I'll have to fix my breakages |
| 10:36.07 | infinity0 | so you can still make commits, instead of leaving patch files lying around |
| 10:36.08 | thiago_home | and my colleagues will be nagging at me until I do |
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| 10:36.22 | Dark_Shikari | true, it's easier if you don't have stable vcs |
| 10:36.25 | thiago_home | like what infinity0 is describing |
| 10:36.27 | Dark_Shikari | we try to main a stable git head |
| 10:36.41 | Dark_Shikari | because we don't do releases ;) |
| 10:37.14 | Dark_Shikari | of course, in practice we end up doing "releases" anyways |
| 10:37.18 | Dark_Shikari | usually bimonthly |
| 10:37.26 | Dark_Shikari | where a "release" is a bunch of commits pushed to public git. |
| 10:38.01 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: I think this really depends a lot on the project involved |
| 10:38.07 | Dark_Shikari | of course |
| 10:38.13 | Dark_Shikari | our problem with releases is what I call "mplayer syndrome" |
| 10:38.18 | Dark_Shikari | where you make one release, and distros latch onto it forever |
| 10:38.20 | Dark_Shikari | and never ever ever update |
| 10:38.22 | thiago_home | we have a three-stage publishing process |
| 10:38.29 | thiago_home | the first is going through the automated test system |
| 10:38.37 | thiago_home | it runs all unit tests in the "fast" platforms |
| 10:38.46 | thiago_home | it takes about 2 hours, runs continuously |
| 10:39.03 | thiago_home | once the commits reach the main repository, they are tested in the "slow" platforms. This takes between 6 to 9 hours |
| 10:39.20 | thiago_home | we have to fix any breakages there, usually compile issues. |
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| 10:39.36 | thiago_home | when we declare we're ready for release, we branch off the stable branch and we start manual testing |
| 10:39.56 | thiago_home | that takes 1 to 3 weeks |
| 10:40.01 | Dark_Shikari | this is what ffmpeg does: |
| 10:40.02 | Dark_Shikari | http://fate.multimedia.cx/index-v3.php |
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| 10:40.48 | kblin | they shelled out for an ARM RVCT compiler? |
| 10:41.07 | kblin | that probably explains why the lead dev still has to use a p2 ;) |
| 10:41.19 | Dark_Shikari | lol no |
| 10:41.26 | Dark_Shikari | Mans Rullgard gets that for free |
| 10:41.26 | thiago_home | RVCT produces very good code |
| 10:41.31 | Dark_Shikari | he's our ARM dev |
| 10:41.32 | thiago_home | but it's a horrible compiler |
| 10:41.40 | Dark_Shikari | he's found so many bugs in it it's unreal |
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| 10:41.57 | Dark_Shikari | but gcc is so insanely bad at ARM |
| 10:42.00 | thiago_home | so did we, but we find bugs in most compilers anyway |
| 10:42.02 | Dark_Shikari | that it's worth trying to make RVCT better |
| 10:42.23 | Dark_Shikari | there are GCC bugs that can be fixed in 2-line patches that result in 3%, 5%, 10% slower code |
| 10:42.32 | thiago_home | which reminds me I still need to make a testcase for binutils ld |
| 10:42.38 | Dark_Shikari | my favorite is the indirect call problem |
| 10:42.45 | Dark_Shikari | GCC uses the wrong instruction for indirect calls on ARM (i.e. function pointers) |
| 10:42.51 | thiago_home | oh? |
| 10:42.53 | Dark_Shikari | this results in a branch misprediction on every single return from said calls |
| 10:43.02 | thiago_home | "oops" ? |
| 10:43.05 | Dark_Shikari | in x264 we measured a 3%+ performance loss due to this |
| 10:43.11 | Dark_Shikari | in a C++ or managed app it would be much worse |
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| 10:43.23 | Dark_Shikari | it can be fixed in a 2 line patch |
| 10:43.40 | thiago_home | I was reading GCC-produced ARM code the other day and I noticed two instructions in a row that were complementary |
| 10:43.44 | Dark_Shikari | the bug was reported. afaik, patch still not committed. |
| 10:43.47 | Dark_Shikari | thiago_home: oh yeah, tons of that |
| 10:43.50 | thiago_home | exactly identical, except one was moveq and the other movne |
| 10:43.53 | Dark_Shikari | gcc cannot properly use 3-operand arches |
| 10:44.02 | Dark_Shikari | it also fails at using the extra shift |
| 10:44.15 | Dark_Shikari | its loop unrolling heuristics are completely broken on arm |
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| 10:44.20 | Dark_Shikari | it will either fully unroll or not at all |
| 10:44.23 | Dark_Shikari | biased way too heavily towards "fully" |
| 10:44.36 | Dark_Shikari | we had a core DSP function that was unrolled completely, halving its speed because after it unrolled, the register allocation failed |
| 10:44.49 | Dark_Shikari | it was the single most important function in the app |
| 10:45.09 | Dark_Shikari | (this is from last summer, where a GSOC project was to add ARM support ;) ) |
| 10:45.18 | Dark_Shikari | that student had a lot of "fun" |
| 10:45.50 | thiago_home | GCC also produces horrible IA-64 code |
| 10:45.58 | thiago_home | sometimes horrible x86 code too |
| 10:46.06 | Dark_Shikari | well, horrible ia64 is an entire non-surprise ;) |
| 10:46.08 | Dark_Shikari | nothing produces good ia64 |
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| 10:48.07 | WinterMute | Dark_Shikari, those test cases & patches are in bugzilla? |
| 10:48.32 | WinterMute | arm stuff I mean |
| 10:48.49 | Dark_Shikari | you mean the gcc patch for indirect calls? it was submitted ages ago yes |
| 10:49.21 | Dark_Shikari | wait, it has actually been committed. |
| 10:49.22 | Dark_Shikari | http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=40887 |
| 10:49.30 | Dark_Shikari | woot |
| 10:51.01 | WinterMute | yeah, just found it |
| 10:51.11 | infinity0 | i've always loved this diagram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Itanium_Sales_Forecasts_edit.png |
| 10:52.01 | WinterMute | hmm, that was after the 4.4.3 release |
| 10:53.05 | thiago_home | infinity0: hehe |
| 10:53.21 | thiago_home | we have 3 Itanium in the office |
| 10:53.43 | thiago_home | that must have contributed to that upwards shot the actual line has... |
| 10:54.14 | Dark_Shikari | infinity0: gotta love that |
| 10:55.09 | kblin | thiago_home: dunno, how many billions did you pay for the three of them? |
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| 10:57.34 | kblin | oh well, time to finally get back to work |
| 10:57.47 | kblin | continues to bang his head against M4 |
| 10:58.30 | thiago_home | the preprocessor? |
| 10:58.42 | ojwb | liked the "itanic" nickname |
| 10:58.47 | thiago_home | or the original Enterprise's computer? |
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| 10:59.27 | ojwb | or the english motorway... |
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| 11:05.33 | kblin | thiago_home: the preprocessor |
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| 11:05.51 | kblin | thiago_home: commonly used for configure scripts |
| 11:06.20 | thiago_home | autoconf |
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| 11:08.00 | kblin | thiago_home: yeah, that's what I meant |
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| 11:15.46 | ojwb | sighs |
| 11:16.04 | ojwb | bug report "code didn't work so I applied this patch, but it still didn't build, and here's the new error" |
| 11:16.10 | ojwb | due to the buggy patch applied... |
| 11:16.37 | kblin | yay |
| 11:17.07 | Ivanovic | ugh, those reports are helpfull |
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| 11:17.23 | Ivanovic | aka "i got a bug: my patch does work, please make my patch work!" |
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| 11:18.03 | ojwb | the reporter is trying to be helpful here, fixing what they thought was the error |
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| 11:18.29 | Ivanovic | ah, okay |
| 11:18.49 | sxw | Just reading scrollback, and the code review discussion. I think it would be fair to say that Gerrit has changed OpenAFS's world. |
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| 11:27.58 | nooga | hi |
| 11:28.55 | gitte | Hi nooga! |
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| 11:36.55 | nooga | I'm planning to apply for some GSoC 2k10 projects. I'm new to this whole thing and a bit excited since I never tried to participate in any OSS project :D |
| 11:37.22 | gitte | nooga: why did you not try to participate in any OSS project? |
| 11:38.26 | nooga | i don't know, i was afraid maybe |
| 11:38.33 | thiago_home | points out that 2k10 and 2010 have the same number of letters |
| 11:38.40 | thiago_home | or, rather, characters |
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| 11:40.38 | nooga | thiago_home: oh, so it was not very unefficient to use k instead of 0 |
| 11:41.08 | thiago_home | at least it's better than 2.01k |
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| 11:42.32 | nooga | 7DA is enough |
| 11:42.33 | x` | "T-2" according to the Mayan calendar :) |
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| 11:42.35 | johang | I vote for 2.01e3 |
| 11:42.43 | gitte | Oh wow. |
| 11:43.02 | gitte | And /me thought, GSoC was about coding, not fuzzing over details. |
| 11:43.02 | Dark_Shikari | floating point imprecision!1! |
| 11:43.07 | nooga | :D |
| 11:43.10 | Dark_Shikari | coding is ALL about fuzzing over details |
| 11:43.17 | Dark_Shikari | ever heard of a bikeshed argument ;) |
| 11:43.28 | gitte | Dark_Shikari: yeah, sure, go on, I have some coding to do. |
| 11:43.28 | bobbens | I thought coding was about hiding hardware mistakes :P |
| 11:43.32 | x` | no wait, i think i found a better one: MMX |
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| 11:43.46 | Dark_Shikari | Intel already has that one trademarked |
| 11:43.59 | x` | bloody bastards |
| 11:44.01 | bobbens | roman prior art! |
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| 11:44.18 | nooga | every place that gathers geeks and coders is a land of puns and weird discussions over many topics |
| 11:44.40 | nooga | imho |
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| 11:45.40 | StevenC | 2nd nooga |
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| 11:47.23 | x` | when it boils down to it, everything that's worth saying is weird, the rest is repetitive fluff. |
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| 12:01.29 | Guest1355 | hii all |
| 12:03.59 | Pseudocoded | hello |
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| 12:06.34 | Bageshwar | Pseudocoded: welcome 1 |
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| 13:11.02 | stargaming | I see the "Google Open Source Programs Office" is a mentoring org as well -- any idea what projects they're offering? |
| 13:11.03 | gunji | jermar |
| 13:13.37 | smtms | stargaming, they aren't offering projects |
| 13:13.48 | spectie | stargaming, if you have an idea |
| 13:13.53 | spectie | that no other organisation seems to be doing |
| 13:13.56 | spectie | you can propose it to them |
| 13:14.06 | smtms | spectie, you need an idea and a mentor |
| 13:14.10 | spectie | yep |
| 13:14.22 | stargaming | oh I see, thanks. |
| 13:17.36 | labatec | is away (Disconnected from bouncer...) |
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| 13:20.59 | infinity0 | hehe fancy seeing you here spectie |
| 13:21.26 | spectie | indeed |
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| 13:22.38 | infinity0 | spectie: are you studenting or mentoring? |
| 13:22.54 | spectie | mentoring |
| 13:22.56 | spectie | and adminning |
| 13:22.59 | spectie | you ? |
| 13:23.03 | infinity0 | oh cool, which project? |
| 13:23.09 | spectie | apertium |
| 13:23.30 | infinity0 | mentoring, well if we get a relevant proposal |
| 13:23.42 | spectie | nice |
| 13:23.43 | infinity0 | ahh cool |
| 13:23.59 | skbohra | what kind of ideas google open source office looks for ? any idea ? |
| 13:24.10 | spectie | skbohra, check out the faq |
| 13:24.19 | skbohra | !faq |
| 13:24.19 | socinfo | "faq" is http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs |
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| 13:24.23 | skbohra | spectie: thanks |
| 13:24.25 | spectie | np |
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| 13:26.19 | skbohra | so it says they focus on academic reserach projects |
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| 14:30.53 | CiswatiC | I wanted some help on choosing a organization which has projects in C |
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| 14:31.25 | Dark_Shikari | "open source projects in C" is like "oceans that contain water" |
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| 14:33.43 | CiswatiC | ya but it would be helpful if somebody helps me with an idea with Plan 9 from bell labs |
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| 14:38.24 | CiswatiC | is there any1 from plan 9 |
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| 14:39.33 | ojwb | !anyone |
| 14:39.33 | socinfo | "anyone" is Instead of looking for mentors from specific projects here, you will likely get much better results by speaking to that mentoring organization themselves. You can find the org's contact info by clicking on their name in the list at: http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/program/accepted_orgs/google/gsoc2010 |
| 14:39.37 | ojwb | CiswatiC: see above ^^ |
| 14:40.38 | smtms | CiswatiC, try #plan9 or #plan9-gsoc |
| 14:40.38 | CiswatiC | thanks |
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| 14:42.27 | x` | any med school people around here? |
| 14:42.46 | Bageshwar | anybody tried pma ? which channels to join |
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| 14:43.45 | smtms | what's pma? where's their website? |
| 14:45.19 | lucian | how does applying for several orgs work? |
| 14:46.08 | djinn | by contacting with the mentor?? |
| 14:46.21 | schumaml | Bageshwar: search for it on their main site? |
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| 14:47.14 | lucian | djinn: no, i mean i don't want to mess things up for any organisation |
| 14:47.34 | lucian | i wouldn't want them to lose a slot on account of me choosing several orgs |
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| 14:53.19 | Psychlone | hello |
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| 14:54.08 | djinn | lucian:you mean you wanna do several projects at the same time? |
| 14:54.26 | lucian | djinn: no, i mean want to apply for several projects |
| 14:54.49 | lucian | djinn: if all of them get accepted, i'll have to choose one |
| 14:55.26 | Psychlone | where can i find the irc channel list for each mentoring organization ? |
| 14:55.30 | spectie | you should tell your organisation if you are applying to >1 |
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| 14:56.54 | lucian | spectie: ok |
| 14:57.01 | lucian | spectie: i was already doing that |
| 14:57.16 | spectie | cool |
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| 14:58.14 | smtms | Psychlone, on each org's website |
| 14:58.30 | smtms | Psychlone, some orgs don't use IRC |
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| 14:58.54 | djinn | and generally not only one channel for each org |
| 14:59.00 | Psychlone | smtms: i fail to find one for phpmyadmin |
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| 17:11.29 | *** topic/#gsoc is Google Summer of Code 2010 is On! - Mentoring Orgs are announced at http://tinyurl.com/yj42nqw! - File Feature Requests & Bugs at http://bit.ly/a5tD87 - Read the FAQs: http://bit.ly/9q41Ey - Consider Hosting a GSoC Info Session: http://bit.ly/amIwdd - We need flyer and presentations translations, videos too! |
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| 17:11.44 | ajuonline | headache: yes, relax prepare. it will go well. dont give yourself your own nick. i mean headache ;) |
| 17:11.52 | ajuonline | good luck :D |
| 17:12.27 | headache | ahahahha no it's a joke |
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| 17:14.05 | bnaik | also, headache |
| 17:14.09 | bnaik | very important |
| 17:14.17 | bnaik | make sure you refer us to them also |
| 17:14.19 | bnaik | ;) |
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| 17:19.01 | dhaun | hmm, advanced GSoC math: 151 − 1 = 152 |
| 17:19.11 | dhaun | i.e. 151 orgs were approved, one disappeared (Chromium OS) - and now there are 152 on the list |
| 17:19.12 | bnaik | ? |
| 17:19.30 | bnaik | y did one disappear? |
| 17:19.52 | dhaun | I have no idea |
| 17:20.11 | dhaun | I swear, this is just Google testing us to see if we're paying attention ;-) |
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| 17:20.22 | bnaik | well someone is |
| 17:20.24 | bnaik | : |
| 17:20.27 | bnaik | :) |
| 17:20.32 | Lunixed | dhaun, I think there used to be 153 |
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| 17:20.46 | Lunixed | I am not very sure... but I think I saw 153 |
| 17:20.49 | bnaik | hmm..maybe that someone wasnt paying attention |
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| 17:51.40 | AshishG | says* |
| 17:51.43 | AshishG | say hello world! |
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| 17:54.54 | AshishG | are there CV or dynamic dev ppl around today? |
| 17:55.09 | AshishG | dynamic web dev* |
| 17:55.11 | robbyoconnor | AshishG: go to their irc channel. |
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| 17:55.45 | shikhark | where can i find sample applications for previous years projects? |
| 17:55.55 | smtms | shikhark, they are generally not published |
| 17:56.12 | smtms | shikhark, however, mozilla has three linked from their ideas page |
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| 17:56.45 | shikhark | smtms, would getting in touch with past participants help? are they allowed to share their applications? |
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| 17:57.17 | smtms | shikhark, they are not disallowed |
| 17:57.33 | smtms | shikhark, getting in touch with past participants may help |
| 17:57.34 | AshishG | their channel? |
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| 17:57.50 | smtms | AshishG, yes, their channel |
| 17:57.59 | shikhark | smtms, their channel is? |
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| 17:58.49 | smtms | shikhark, whose channel? |
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| 17:59.02 | shikhark | smtms, past participants |
| 17:59.49 | smtms | shikhark, you think there is an IRC channel for past participants? |
| 18:00.31 | shikhark | smtms, someone just mentioned 'their channel', though i know its unlikely :P |
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| 18:07.04 | blast007 | shikhark: that was a response to a previous question from before you joined |
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| 18:23.41 | _Samo | hi guys |
| 18:23.48 | _Samo | I have a question for you |
| 18:25.12 | _Samo | we already have informal contacts with students, but all is done with emails and chit chat, we would like to have a place for these information exchange, so the whole project team can review it |
| 18:25.20 | _Samo | how your project handle this |
| 18:25.43 | infinity0 | mailing list? |
| 18:27.09 | _Samo | yeo but our project does not have one |
| 18:27.30 | smtms | _Samo, the whole project team will review project applications that the students will send; do you need it to review something more? |
| 18:28.18 | infinity0 | _Samo: well... maybe you should look to get one? |
| 18:28.37 | infinity0 | there are various providers, eg. launchpad and sourceforge |
| 18:28.45 | smtms | and Google Groups |
| 18:29.30 | ajuonline | _Samo: some projects do create GSoC year specific lists for a) just mentor discussion and b) student, mentor interaction. |
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| 18:30.01 | ajuonline | or wiki access to students to put up all their proposal drafts |
| 18:30.30 | dhaun | Google Docs also works for draft proposals |
| 18:30.56 | ajuonline | ah yes, I used that the first time |
| 18:33.18 | pkuhad | Collaborative editors may be the alternative for such task |
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| 18:35.47 | nrungta | I am not being able to process the request to become a GSoC Mentor. When I click on the request, my only two options are "Withdraw" or "Back to previous page" |
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| 18:36.13 | nrungta | Any suggestions on what I could do to accept the request? |
| 18:36.36 | dhaun | nrungta: sounds like you're on the wrong page |
| 18:36.57 | nrungta | I logged into the socghop appsot page |
| 18:37.37 | dhaun | yeah, but in there, you seem to be looking at the request you sent |
| 18:37.42 | dhaun | are you a project admin? |
| 18:37.50 | nrungta | yes I am a project admin |
| 18:38.48 | nrungta | it does look very similar to an invite that I sent out. |
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| 18:39.22 | dhaun | hmm, I don't have any pending requests - which link did you click on? |
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| 18:39.53 | nrungta | Invites and requests |
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| 18:40.49 | nrungta | Let me invite the mentor and see if it fixes the problem |
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| 18:43.03 | _Samo | doe the proposal the student is working on |
| 18:43.29 | _Samo | *should the proposal the student is working on kept private between mentors and students |
| 18:43.43 | _Samo | what's your advice on this |
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| 18:45.00 | _Samo | I mean if the proposal is public in a wiki as the student keeps on working on it, other students applying for the same idea can see it, apart from the whole community |
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| 18:45.10 | _Samo | is that good or bad? |
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| 18:47.45 | dhaun | well, there are potential issues when the proposal includes an original idea - you would need to keep track who had that idea originally |
| 18:48.02 | dhaun | but other than that, I've come to the conclusion that the more people see it, the better |
| 18:49.15 | _Samo | ok |
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| 18:54.55 | kblin | _Samo: I agree with dhaun. usually the person who had the original idea will have more clue what it is about as well |
| 18:56.36 | _Samo | Kblin, I mean when students apply for one of the already proposed ideas we have in the ideas list |
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| 19:00.01 | dhaun | _Samo: but even for those projects, there are often new ideas for students (about implementation details, for example) - that's what I meant |
| 19:00.08 | dhaun | *from students |
| 19:00.11 | kblin | ah, I get what you mean |
| 19:00.42 | kblin | we tend to review proposals on the mailing list, that way we have timestamps :) |
| 19:01.37 | _Samo | guys, more generally how do you proceed when two students apply for the same idea? |
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| 19:01.57 | _Samo | and you help both students the same to refine it |
| 19:02.06 | AshishG | yeah, i would like to know too |
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| 19:03.19 | Chetan | me too |
| 19:04.38 | jbourne | !next |
| 19:04.39 | socinfo | "next" is March 29th -- student applications are then officially opened, but you can talk to participating organizations now already :) |
| 19:06.12 | dhaun | I don't think there's anything special you do - you just work with what the student sent. In my experience, each proposal has its own focus anyway |
| 19:06.26 | dhaun | so you won't end up with x identical proposals, if that's what you mean |
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| 19:07.03 | _Samo | yep |
| 19:07.10 | kpreid | if you *do* end up with identical proposals then perhaps neither one is sufficiently personal |
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| 19:30.09 | ThomasWaldmann | moin :) |
| 19:30.46 | AshishG | moin to u too sir |
| 19:32.55 | bnaik | really late here |
| 19:33.02 | bnaik | going to sleep |
| 19:33.06 | bnaik | bye gsoceers |
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| 19:34.17 | xb95 | something I can't seem to find in the FAQ -- I assume it's acceptable to require students sign a CLA before being able to use their code in the project? |
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| 19:39.21 | pygi | xb95, why not |
| 19:39.42 | pygi | but make sure you communicate that clearly to them BEFORE you accept them |
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| 19:41.47 | xb95 | pygi: yeah, that's what I was thinking. thanks. |
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| 19:44.06 | Crofton | CLA? |
| 19:44.26 | kpreid | Contributor License Agreement |
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| 19:49.31 | xb95 | pretty common in most projects. assigns the rights to the company that owns the project, guarantees it will always be open source, that sort of thing. |
| 19:49.51 | xb95 | at least, common for US based companies. no idea about the rest of the world. |
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| 19:50.50 | pygi | xb95, what is your project? |
| 19:50.59 | xb95 | Dreamwidth Studios (dreamwidth.org) |
| 19:51.33 | pygi | xb95, what do you do? :) |
| 19:51.46 | xb95 | I run the project. Or well, I co-run it with my business partner. |
| 19:51.54 | xb95 | I'm the technical half though so I'm doing our GSoC stuff. |
| 19:52.17 | pygi | xb95, I meant what does Dreamwidth does :P |
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| 19:53.17 | xb95 | oh haha, sorry |
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| 19:53.48 | xb95 | we're a social media site, in essence. forked off of the LiveJournal code if you're familiar with that project. |
| 19:53.54 | kpreid | it's For People Who Quit LiveJournal. :-) |
| 19:53.58 | freedrul1 | im guessing the answer is no, but can i apply if im graduating this june? |
| 19:54.18 | kpreid | freedrul1: if you're enrolled now til june, then YES. |
| 19:54.40 | smtms | kpreid, will you answer his next question answered by the FAQ? |
| 19:54.48 | pygi | xb95, ah, cool |
| 19:54.52 | freedrul1 | kpreid: but i wont be a student this summer :{ |
| 19:55.22 | kpreid | smtms: digging up the FAQ in parallel. |
| 19:55.46 | kpreid | freedrul1: completely irrelevant, see http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs#graduate |
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| 19:57.55 | freedrul1 | kpreid: oh sweet, i thought i had read that question SOMEwhere before |
| 19:57.58 | freedrul1 | awesome |
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| 19:58.10 | freedrul1 | thanks |
| 19:58.15 | kpreid | it's the #1 question on the gsoc mailing list, pretty much :-) |
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| 20:00.56 | kblin | xb95: you need to consider the impact of requiring a CLA, though |
| 20:01.27 | kblin | myself, I prefer to contribute to projects where I keep the copyright of my own code |
| 20:02.04 | xb95 | oh yes, you maintain your copyright |
| 20:02.13 | xb95 | the CLA just grants us license to use it |
| 20:02.18 | xb95 | royalty free, worldwide, etc |
| 20:03.24 | kblin | ah, ok, I assumed the "assigns the rights to the company that owns the project" to be a copyright assignment, SUN-style |
| 20:03.24 | kblin | my bad |
| 20:03.35 | kblin | you're probably fine then |
| 20:03.49 | xb95 | ours also includes a section that warrants that we will never un-open-source the code |
| 20:03.55 | xb95 | without removing your code |
| 20:04.14 | xb95 | so I think that's important for contributors |
| 20:04.28 | kblin | well, that's a bit pointless if I keep the copyright on my code |
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| 20:04.40 | kblin | ;) |
| 20:04.54 | xb95 | it means your code doesn't end up down the line powering Major Corporation's Private Blogging Software Sold for Billions |
| 20:05.15 | xb95 | which is important for me and some of our contributors |
| 20:05.21 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: the sun doesn't quite do that iirc |
| 20:05.23 | Dark_Shikari | it's dual-ownership |
| 20:05.34 | Dark_Shikari | it says "we give the company rights to do whatever with it--but I keep the rights for myself, too" |
| 20:05.46 | kblin | xb95: just a sec, what license is your project using? |
| 20:06.02 | Dark_Shikari | also, it includes a clause saying that any modifications to the code must be released under an open source license. |
| 20:06.07 | xb95 | we've standardized on "same terms as Perl itself".. so artistic/GPL |
| 20:06.11 | Dark_Shikari | They can _also_ be released under a proprietary license |
| 20:06.13 | kpreid | xb95: I don't see the point of that CLA given that all submitted code is clearly licensed, then, unless it's just reiterating for extra protection |
| 20:06.13 | xb95 | and our CLA is http://bugs.dwscoalition.org/attachment.cgi?id=2061 |
| 20:06.24 | Dark_Shikari | kpreid: it makes it easier to relicense later |
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| 20:07.05 | kpreid | sure, but you could just as well submit it with a license of "DW may do whatever they want with this, including, of course, publishing it under another license" |
| 20:07.23 | Dark_Shikari | it's a bit more legally messy than that. |
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| 20:07.35 | Dark_Shikari | we're doing something similar, and what I've learned from my lawyer is that it's unreasonably messy. |
| 20:07.56 | kpreid | gotcha. |
| 20:08.10 | Dark_Shikari | of course we're going dual gpl/proprietary, which makes things a bit messier |
| 20:08.14 | kpreid | does not deal with large orgs and just publishes everything under some random OS license :-) |
| 20:08.34 | kpreid | and/or the "I wrote this on my blog and didn't say what the license is" license |
| 20:08.45 | Dark_Shikari | which technically means it has no license, and nobody has the right to use it |
| 20:08.59 | kpreid | nods |
| 20:09.06 | Dark_Shikari | not like anyone cares. |
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| 20:09.14 | kblin | xb95: ah, you include a patent license, I see the point now |
| 20:09.38 | kpreid | Except whatever rights are in practice assumed to be granted by the act of publishing it on the web. |
| 20:09.50 | smtms | the right to read it :-) |
| 20:09.54 | kpreid | (IANAL etc: but obviously published is more than not-published) |
| 20:10.03 | kpreid | shuts up now |
| 20:11.10 | xb95 | kblin: oh yeah, forgot about that. been a while since we got the CLA assembled, and IANAL as well, I just pay one on the internet. |
| 20:11.29 | Dark_Shikari | pay or play? or both? ;) |
| 20:11.42 | xb95 | I try to avoid playing one. I just pay them. :) |
| 20:11.57 | xb95 | But sometimes we have to play them. Anybody who runs a web site gets that game, I suppose. |
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| 20:13.59 | kblin | xb95: well, your CLA looks reasonable |
| 20:13.59 | fweisbec | hi everyone |
| 20:14.21 | kblin | I don't think there's an issue of requiring the student to sign that |
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| 20:14.33 | __asdf__ | !next |
| 20:14.34 | socinfo | "next" is March 29th -- student applications are then officially opened, but you can talk to participating organizations now already :) |
| 20:14.38 | fweisbec | looks like student can apply for gsoc project ideas starting on March 29 |
| 20:15.16 | fweisbec | is there a template I can look at already to start filling my proposal? |
| 20:15.37 | smtms | fweisbec, see if your org of choice has a template |
| 20:15.45 | kblin | depends on the org :) |
| 20:15.47 | Raim | fweisbec: ask the specific organization if they have a template |
| 20:15.49 | xb95 | kblin: thank you! well, obviously, if the student doesn't want to they don't have to. it's possible that if they write a project like a mobile application they won't technically need to (although we'd like it), and even if they don't, they can still successfully complete GSoC (under the 'your code doesn't have to make it into the project' rule). obviously that would be a suboptimal result for us, but eh. it |
| 20:15.51 | xb95 | would be no worse than a student flaking out halfway through. |
| 20:15.57 | fweisbec | ok |
| 20:16.25 | fweisbec | I can see this in the specific organization website, but it looks like more a google template: https://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/gsoc/google-summer-code-student-application-template |
| 20:17.22 | kblin | fweisbec: google lets the organization pretty much do what they want when selecting students |
| 20:17.31 | fweisbec | ok |
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| 20:17.59 | fweisbec | thanks! |
| 20:18.25 | kblin | but most orgs have found they want some information from every student, and asking for them in your template once beats asking them on every application :) |
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| 20:20.00 | fweisbec | kblin: ok |
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| 20:21.18 | kblin | SRabbelier: and before you get any funny ideas, I still dislike CLAs where reading the CLA takes longer than creating the patch I want to contribute ;) |
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| 20:22.00 | SRabbelier | kblin: why would I be getting funny idea's? :P |
| 20:22.09 | SRabbelier | (what CLA did you have to sign?) |
| 20:22.38 | kblin | none |
| 20:22.59 | SRabbelier | ah, right :P |
| 20:23.04 | SRabbelier | kblin: then what made you say that? |
| 20:23.15 | kblin | discussing CLAs with xb95 :) |
| 20:23.25 | kblin | sorry I woke you up :) |
| 20:23.57 | SRabbelier | kblin: ah, didnt' read that far back :P |
| 20:24.16 | xb95 | hmm, that's a good yardstick actually |
| 20:25.07 | kblin | xb95: I know that the US loves legalese, but I've had employment contracts that were shorter than your CLA :) |
| 20:25.16 | xb95 | ...wow |
| 20:25.33 | xb95 | When I worked for Google, it was a little longer ;) |
| 20:25.58 | kblin | well, the one time I contracted for a US company it was a little longer as well |
| 20:26.02 | Dark_Shikari | wait, your CLA is that long? |
| 20:26.03 | Dark_Shikari | ours is one page |
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| 20:35.38 | kblin | sighs |
| 20:36.12 | kblin | why is there no ubuntu package for Sort::ArrayOfArrays? |
| 20:36.28 | ajuonline | why cant everything just be public domain? *sleepythought* |
| 20:36.41 | kblin | ajuonline: because that doesn't work everywhere |
| 20:37.29 | ajuonline | there are places where it doesnt exist? |
| 20:37.56 | smtms | if everything was public domain, GSoC wouldn't exist |
| 20:37.57 | kblin | yeah |
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| 20:38.16 | kblin | besides, sometimes copyleft is a good thing |
| 20:44.01 | anth_x | maybe. ;-) |
| 20:44.40 | jcreigh | smtms: why do you say that? |
| 20:44.43 | anth_x | and i suspect GSoC would exist regardless. community and techniques are more important than licenses for GSoC. BSDs have participated plenty; no conflict there. |
| 20:45.42 | kblin | I doubt opensource would be where it is today without a couple of big copyleft projects being as successful as they are |
| 20:46.52 | anth_x | maybe. i'm less convinced. the culture of sharing certainly predates copyleft (open source predates Open Source). |
| 20:47.06 | anth_x | no doubt copyleft helped, but i think the direction was inevitable. |
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| 20:47.37 | anth_x | the bsd lawsuits left a large whole for linux adoption, but the lawsuit had nothing to do with the license being used. |
| 20:47.52 | smtms | jcreigh, if you have no author of a piece of code, because it's in the public domain, how do you pay somebody for writing it? |
| 20:48.07 | anth_x | anyway, it's all speculative. the reality is copyleft *did* help the progress. |
| 20:48.38 | Upthorn | I think a more correct statement is that opensource probably wouldn't be where it is today if a couple of big copyright projects hadn't been as successful |
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| 20:49.03 | Upthorn | cause like, it would be the dominant paradigm |
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| 20:53.21 | jcreigh | smtms: oh, okay. I misinterpreted what you said, reading "public domain" to mean "BSD-style license" |
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| 21:01.03 | domonoky | !next |
| 21:01.03 | socinfo | "next" is March 29th -- student applications are then officially opened, but you can talk to participating organizations now already :) |
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| 21:17.04 | __asdf__ | !advice |
| 21:17.04 | socinfo | "advice" is http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code/wiki/AdviceforStudents for students, http://code.google.com/p/google-summer-of-code/wiki/AdviceforMentors for mentors |
| 21:17.23 | MatthewWilkes | OT: http://www.rifters.com/blindsight/BS_main.htm <-- Awesome. |
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| 21:34.06 | common | could someone from the gsoc "GC" please talk to freenode staff, so they register the #gsoc-honeynet channel, they want somebody from the gsoc group to get involved |
| 21:34.43 | MatthewWilkes | common: Register #honeynet-gsoc instead |
| 21:35.21 | MatthewWilkes | the standard is #project-subchannel and this would be a channel for your project |
| 21:35.46 | common | we already used the channel last yeat, it is in the docs, and there are enough people to keep the channel |
| 21:35.54 | lstarnes | it depends on if it is considered a subproject of gsoc |
| 21:36.06 | kblin | unless you're talking about setting up a gsoc instance to trap bots pretending to be students interested in open source |
| 21:36.29 | lstarnes | since this channel appears to be in use already, I think it may be better for the group contact to request that staff allow someone to register the current channel |
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| 21:37.05 | MatthewWilkes | common: You MIGHT be able to get them to set up a channel forward to an updated name? |
| 21:37.20 | kblin | how about you register #honeynet-gsoc and request a forwarding? |
| 21:37.29 | common | lstarnes: will that work? |
| 21:37.32 | lstarnes | I don't think staff can set a forward |
| 21:37.43 | lstarnes | but it's worth a shot |
| 21:38.08 | MatthewWilkes | lstarnes: They can: http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#channelforwarding - dunno if they would, though |
| 21:38.12 | MatthewWilkes | it's a different use-case |
| 21:38.18 | lstarnes | it would probably be on a temporary basis |
| 21:38.38 | lstarnes | and a GRF would need to be filed for #honeynet-gsoc so that it can be valid when GMS is put in place |
| 21:38.39 | kblin | common: in any case, I don't think any of the group contact people are in right now |
| 21:39.12 | lstarnes | kblin: are you absolutely sure that they would object to reclaiming #gsoc-honeynet? |
| 21:39.26 | kblin | nope |
| 21:39.31 | robbyoconnor | lstarnes: do ##gsoc-honeynut |
| 21:39.38 | robbyoconnor | lstarnes: do ##gsoc-honeynet |
| 21:39.50 | robbyoconnor | reason: unofficial :P |
| 21:39.51 | lstarnes | robbyoconnor: is it supposed to be an official channel for a project? |
| 21:39.51 | robbyoconnor | :) |
| 21:40.00 | robbyoconnor | are you affiliated with google? |
| 21:40.16 | robbyoconnor | then it's not an official google chan :) |
| 21:40.18 | MatthewWilkes | lstarnes: Hmm, can you do a trick as an op with forwarding banned users, maybe? |
| 21:40.33 | lstarnes | I don't think so |
| 21:40.34 | kblin | I think they're affiliated with honeynet |
| 21:40.39 | common | yes |
| 21:40.54 | lstarnes | then honeynet should file for group registration if this is their official gsoc channel |
| 21:41.04 | lstarnes | if not, then use ##honeynet-gsoc or another ## channel |
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| 21:45.35 | common | thanks for your time |
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| 22:47.29 | ColloquyUser | Is there a current list of gsoc info sessions anywhere? |
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| 22:51.38 | thiago_home | I don't think there are any info sessions |
| 22:52.42 | drt24 | there were info sessions on Friday according to the calendar |
| 22:53.04 | Airwhale | Any? At all? There were info sessions in 2009. The topic in the channel suggests that there are some this year? |
| 22:53.22 | drt24 | it doesn't look like there are any more scheduled though |
| 22:53.42 | drt24 | two should have happened last friday |
| 22:53.57 | Airwhale | Ah well, thanks drt24 |
| 22:54.12 | drt24 | gcal++ :-) |
| 22:54.51 | Airwhale | :) |
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| 23:32.04 | bdrung | how many hours will gsoc consume a week and how many weeks does it take? |
| 23:32.55 | drt24 | bdrung: it is a full time job |
| 23:32.59 | MatthewWilkes | bdrung: Different projects have different expectations, but I'd say 35 hours per week for 12 weeks is fair |
| 23:33.07 | MatthewWilkes | is it 12 (?) |
| 23:33.09 | MatthewWilkes | !timeline |
| 23:33.10 | socinfo | "timeline" is http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs#timeline |
| 23:33.40 | bdrung | a full semester... |
| 23:33.47 | MatthewWilkes | Yes, 12 weeks |
| 23:34.00 | merwok | Trimester* |
| 23:34.23 | mmadia | though, "working" during the Community Bonding Period will definitely help too. |
| 23:35.26 | mmadia | there's a saying... "early is on time, on time is late, and late is unacceptable" :) |
| 23:36.10 | MatthewWilkes | bdrung: Based on the minimum wage in the UK, it's equivalent pay to 47 hours per week, so it pays more over 12 weeks than a supermarket job, for example |
| 23:37.43 | bdrung | i have already a tutor job and have to write my bachelor thesis. a half time free software job would be nice, but for full time i have not enough time |
| 23:38.21 | merwok | Shame the euro is stronger than the dollar at present :p |
| 23:38.28 | drt24 | :-( my last exam is on the 3rd June. So I won't be able to work during the first two weeks or in the community bonding period... |
| 23:39.05 | bdrung | thanks for your answers. bye |
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| 23:51.55 | noy | Hi there, a bit of a question about the GSOC registration form for Admins. I'm a bit of a private individual because of my day job, and I was wondering if there was any issue if I made my name Richard S. instead of writing my last name out in full? |
| 23:52.55 | noy | I don't mind giving it to a specific individual, but I'd rather not have it published in public |
| 23:53.55 | merwok | Google probably already has it :) |
| 23:54.37 | noy | I don't care whether it does or doesn't... just that its not published online. |
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| 23:58.26 | danderson | noy: I don't particularly see a problem with that, no |
| 23:58.41 | noy | I didn't think so... I just wanted to make sure. |
| 23:59.10 | ojwb | noy: Richard Stallman? |
| 23:59.12 | schumaml | although you make it sound like a student could have second thoughts about applying to your org :) |
| 23:59.32 | noy | No... thats not me |
