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| 07:52.11 | r0bby | this isn't good at all |
| 07:53.10 | thebolt | what isn't? |
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| 08:11.10 | kblin | morning |
| 08:15.04 | r0bby | I just found the firefox addon yoono |
| 08:15.07 | r0bby | AWESOME thing |
| 08:15.11 | r0bby | plus twitterfox :) |
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| 11:06.17 | kblin | ooh, linux.conf.au 2010 is going to be in NZ |
| 11:06.19 | kblin | cool |
| 11:06.47 | MatthewWilkes | does not compute |
| 11:07.31 | MatthewWilkes | wtf, the new king kong is on 2 DVDs? This is going to take a while |
| 11:08.14 | kblin | well, I finally need to get a talk accepted for LCA |
| 11:09.21 | MatthewWilkes | "You wouldn't steal a car, you wouldn't steal a mobile phone, you wouldn't steal a movie. Movie piracy is theft." |
| 11:09.31 | MatthewWilkes | Fuck you, no it's not |
| 11:09.38 | MatthewWilkes | let me skip your propaganda on dvds |
| 11:10.16 | kblin | yeah... I bet lots of people would steal a car if the owner of the car still had the car after it was stolen |
| 11:10.30 | MatthewWilkes | exactly |
| 11:10.59 | MatthewWilkes | "You wouldn't duplicate a car. You wouldn't duplicate consumer electronics. You wouldn't duplicate works of art." doesn't quite work |
| 11:11.10 | kblin | hehe |
| 11:11.48 | kblin | MatthewWilkes: also, I've got the impression that duplicating consumer electronics is a growing business in asia |
| 11:12.07 | MatthewWilkes | yeah, once they get good at it we're golden |
| 11:12.52 | kblin | anyway, we got similar propaganda on our dvds here |
| 11:13.10 | kblin | but it seems like xine allows me to skip those |
| 11:13.29 | kblin | I know the osx dvd player doesn't though |
| 11:13.41 | MatthewWilkes | it does on some discs, depends how they were mastered |
| 11:14.02 | MatthewWilkes | You've got a Pirat now though. Bring the revolution. |
| 11:14.39 | clever | depends on how it was mastered, and if the dvd player will obey that info |
| 11:15.00 | MatthewWilkes | indeed |
| 11:15.06 | clever | open source stuff isnt forced to obey it by the major companys that control the dvd encryption |
| 11:15.21 | kblin | another reason not to by blu-ray crap |
| 11:15.43 | Dark_Shikari | well, why buy it when you can just torrent it ;) |
| 11:15.53 | clever | blu-ray is alot more complicated and harder to emulate without paying heavily to make the player |
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| 11:17.31 | ojwb | it's not the first LCA in NZ |
| 11:18.07 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: well technically once it's ripped and can be torrented, it's not blu-ray anymore, right? |
| 11:18.19 | kblin | ojwb: never said that |
| 11:18.30 | Dark_Shikari | not really, it's blu-ray in a much nicer, more usable format |
| 11:18.35 | Dark_Shikari | which is probably why hardly anyone buys blu-rays |
| 11:18.49 | Dark_Shikari | why buy when you can download it in a far more usable format that you can play on any computer |
| 11:18.53 | Dark_Shikari | without paying $300 for a drive |
| 11:19.07 | ojwb | didn't (mean to) imply you did |
| 11:19.33 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: dunno, I'm happy to pay for stuff I like |
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| 11:19.48 | clever | Dark_Shikari: the blu-ray specs include a virtual machine to let the disk run code on the 'player' to verify if your using the expensive software |
| 11:19.49 | Dark_Shikari | but why pay for it if it's in an annoying unusable format? |
| 11:19.57 | clever | to stop you from ripping and using open source players |
| 11:20.04 | Dark_Shikari | clever: it only took them a few weeks to break that though |
| 11:20.27 | clever | Dark_Shikari: not fully |
| 11:20.36 | Dark_Shikari | well, as far as I know, every single blu-ray is broken |
| 11:20.42 | Dark_Shikari | since every single one can be found online for download ;) |
| 11:20.51 | clever | that vm code could still do alot of new things that the open source vm cant handle |
| 11:20.59 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: and I know that I like being able to watch my movies whenever I decide to watch them, not when someone else decides I may watch them |
| 11:21.04 | clever | which will block ripping new disks |
| 11:21.15 | Dark_Shikari | which just means it takes another 2 days to add support |
| 11:21.27 | Dark_Shikari | that's why it's doomed to fail: people can always crack it faster than they can add new features |
| 11:21.33 | Dark_Shikari | because you can't add a new feature without releasing a new disk |
| 11:21.42 | Dark_Shikari | but you can crack at any time and roll out updates in hours |
| 11:21.52 | kblin | nods |
| 11:21.54 | clever | it has room for the disk to patch the firmware in the player |
| 11:22.04 | Dark_Shikari | yes, which still means you need to release a disk |
| 11:22.17 | Dark_Shikari | which takes *MONTHS* and tens of millions of dollars |
| 11:22.26 | clever | and the open source player has to emulate the entire player, at the hardware level |
| 11:22.28 | Dark_Shikari | the overhead of updating Blu-ray stuff (keys, etc) is enormous |
| 11:22.34 | Dark_Shikari | yes, which is trivial |
| 11:22.35 | clever | so that it can update the firmware on the 'player' |
| 11:22.43 | Dark_Shikari | the hardware player is vastly simpler than a device like, say, a playstation 2 |
| 11:22.48 | ojwb | what a hideous idea |
| 11:22.49 | Dark_Shikari | and those aren't just emulated, they're JITed! |
| 11:23.15 | ojwb | someone could make a disk to render you bluray player a fancy paperweight |
| 11:23.24 | kblin | yeah |
| 11:23.28 | kblin | that's by design |
| 11:23.34 | Dark_Shikari | and in the end, there's a simple reason that all DRM is doomed to fail |
| 11:23.41 | Dark_Shikari | Only one person needs to crack something. |
| 11:23.50 | Dark_Shikari | Sure, an ordinary user won't be bothered to do it--but one pirate will |
| 11:23.53 | Dark_Shikari | and that pirate will post it online |
| 11:23.56 | Dark_Shikari | and everyone else will download it. |
| 11:24.04 | clever | kblin: yeah, if your drive serial# has been found to be ripping, insert a drive frying update in new releases |
| 11:24.19 | Dark_Shikari | clever: revoking keys is incredibly costly |
| 11:24.34 | clever | Dark_Shikari: thats when you revoke a key for the drive in every pc |
| 11:24.42 | Dark_Shikari | it is still incredibly costly |
| 11:24.55 | clever | but if theres a serial# on the drive, or the vm code can detect your ripping app, it can nuke just 1 drive |
| 11:24.55 | Dark_Shikari | it costs a few hundred bucks for one pirate to buy a new drive |
| 11:25.04 | kblin | clever: and that's why I'm not going to buy this crap.. it's too complicated and bound to go wrong |
| 11:25.16 | Dark_Shikari | it costs millions to master new discs |
| 11:25.32 | Dark_Shikari | it's asymmetric, and the pirates will always win |
| 11:25.40 | clever | Dark_Shikari: or they can just wait for the next big movie, and sneak it in with the disks that are going to be mastered from scratch anyways |
| 11:25.50 | Dark_Shikari | yes, but they still have to update the software involved |
| 11:25.52 | Dark_Shikari | the logistics is costly |
| 11:26.00 | Dark_Shikari | surely it costs them more than $200 |
| 11:26.51 | Dark_Shikari | of course, I ask you how you expect them to find the serial number of the pirate's drive ;) |
| 11:27.02 | kblin | yeah |
| 11:27.09 | kblin | like more than once |
| 11:27.12 | clever | the drive may encode the serial# as small artifacts in the video |
| 11:27.16 | Dark_Shikari | watermarks don't work |
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| 11:27.34 | clever | depends on the compression quality of the rip |
| 11:27.38 | kblin | someone will notice and fix the ripping software |
| 11:27.39 | Dark_Shikari | no, they just don't work |
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| 11:27.55 | Dark_Shikari | in this case, they *literally* don't work |
| 11:28.02 | Dark_Shikari | in that technically, it is absolutely impossible for one reason |
| 11:28.04 | clever | kblin: then they may update the vm code in the disk, to not get fixed:P |
| 11:28.06 | Dark_Shikari | Blu-ray works as follows: |
| 11:28.22 | Dark_Shikari | encrypted bitstream --> DRM stuff -> unencrypted bitstream -> video/audio decoders |
| 11:28.28 | Dark_Shikari | you cannot add watermarks in the compressed domain |
| 11:28.34 | Dark_Shikari | therefore, "DRM stuff" cannot add a watermark to "bitstream" |
| 11:28.48 | clever | Dark_Shikari: enless you modify the compressed stream slightly, without making it invalid |
| 11:28.53 | Dark_Shikari | impossible |
| 11:29.07 | kblin | unless their crypto is crap |
| 11:29.11 | Dark_Shikari | in order to do so in H.264 you'd have to fully decode the entire stream |
| 11:29.15 | Dark_Shikari | and then re-encode it |
| 11:29.22 | clever | you can plan out 2 seperate frames |
| 11:29.23 | Dark_Shikari | because the frame ends when the arithmetic coder indicates an end-of-frame code |
| 11:29.24 | clever | and compress both |
| 11:29.32 | Dark_Shikari | You mean double the bitstrate of the disc? |
| 11:29.33 | clever | and hard-code the difference of them into the disk |
| 11:29.37 | Dark_Shikari | impossible again |
| 11:29.39 | clever | for just a few special frames |
| 11:29.44 | Dark_Shikari | the diff will be equal to the size of the frame |
| 11:29.49 | Dark_Shikari | because of how entropy coders work |
| 11:30.01 | Dark_Shikari | remember, you'd need a different watermark for every single drive |
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| 11:30.06 | clever | and are you forgeting about the vm code? |
| 11:30.13 | Dark_Shikari | the VM is not going to rewrite the entire bitstream on the fly |
| 11:30.14 | clever | i think that can do post-processing of the video |
| 11:30.17 | Dark_Shikari | they don't have the hardware to do that |
| 11:30.19 | clever | after decoding |
| 11:30.26 | Dark_Shikari | But rippers don't do that |
| 11:30.35 | Dark_Shikari | the *entire point* of ripping is to extract the *undecoded* bitstream |
| 11:30.43 | Dark_Shikari | If you only want the decoded bitstream, you don't need to rip the disk! |
| 11:30.45 | clever | so, make the video quality horidly screwed up and force you to decode and run the vm on it to fix it:P |
| 11:31.09 | clever | they could 'encrypt' the thing again by swaping the colors arround randomly |
| 11:31.18 | Dark_Shikari | and then you can decrypt it by reversing the process |
| 11:31.19 | clever | and use the vm post-processing to fix it on the fly at playback |
| 11:31.49 | clever | you would have to run that vm post-processing code |
| 11:31.55 | kblin | why? |
| 11:31.56 | Dark_Shikari | no, you'd have to read the code |
| 11:31.57 | clever | or figure out how it 'decrypts' it |
| 11:31.59 | Dark_Shikari | and understand what it does |
| 11:32.01 | Dark_Shikari | and reimplement it |
| 11:32.07 | Dark_Shikari | and it's far easier to reimplement it than to write it in the first place |
| 11:32.15 | Dark_Shikari | this has been done to death for two decades, nobody ever succeeded |
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| 11:32.36 | Dark_Shikari | see Apple's DRM for itunes for an example of obfuscation-based decryption DRM |
| 11:32.40 | Dark_Shikari | it failed miserably |
| 11:32.44 | Dark_Shikari | broken trivially |
| 11:32.59 | Dark_Shikari | well, not trivially, it took some effort, but it probably took more effort to write the DRM than to break it |
| 11:33.16 | Dark_Shikari | and there's the rule 1 of cracking: the crackers have more time than you do, and they are more skilled than you are. No exceptions. |
| 11:33.24 | clever | and with what i know of the blu-ray spec, they can put in a new drm scheme in every movie, and have the virtual machine run it |
| 11:33.38 | clever | just to make it a nightmare for the pirates:P |
| 11:33.40 | Dark_Shikari | and you can do the same with PC games |
| 11:33.44 | Dark_Shikari | make a new DRM scheme for every game, include it |
| 11:33.50 | Dark_Shikari | doesn't stop every single one from being cracked in -2 days |
| 11:34.04 | kblin | clever: rule 1 of cracking applies to that |
| 11:34.04 | clever | yeah, but they will have to spend 2 days on every movie |
| 11:34.13 | Dark_Shikari | yes, and? big deal |
| 11:34.20 | clever | they wont be able to break every future movie and then be done with it |
| 11:34.21 | Dark_Shikari | that just means the movie will be out on the internet 3 days before release |
| 11:34.21 | kblin | clever: and you need to spend weeks on every new DRM scheme |
| 11:34.24 | Dark_Shikari | instead of 5 days |
| 11:34.46 | kblin | clever: at least |
| 11:34.54 | clever | id have to find that thread i was reading on it to figure it out more |
| 11:35.02 | clever | was somewhere on the doom9 forum |
| 11:35.04 | kblin | clever: or your're going to screw up and fry some devices |
| 11:35.09 | Dark_Shikari | yes, the difficulty of breaking an obfuscation scheme is proportional to the time spent making it |
| 11:35.17 | Dark_Shikari | if you try to make a ton of schemes fast, they will be easy to break |
| 11:35.31 | kblin | nods |
| 11:35.52 | Dark_Shikari | kblin: they're not afraid to do that |
| 11:36.04 | Dark_Shikari | all DVD DRM over the past few years has explicitly broken tons of players |
| 11:36.19 | Dark_Shikari | and the video stores are the ones who get all the blame and lose all the money |
| 11:36.34 | Dark_Shikari | when their customers return a huge proportion of the DVDs they sell due to them not playing |
| 11:36.46 | kblin | nods |
| 11:36.48 | clever | bbl |
| 11:36.57 | kblin | I had to do that with a CD once |
| 11:37.20 | kblin | very annoying, wouldn't play in my dad's stereo |
| 11:37.29 | kblin | nice birthday present |
| 11:37.55 | Dark_Shikari | they have a bunch of CDs now that only play on PCs |
| 11:37.59 | Dark_Shikari | by installing some special driver or whatnot |
| 11:38.06 | Dark_Shikari | makes you wonder--WTF are you supposed to do with the thing? |
| 11:38.18 | Dark_Shikari | if you wanted it on your PC, you'd buy it off amazon |
| 11:38.20 | kblin | well, for CDs luckily the situation is easy |
| 11:38.44 | kblin | as phillips refuses to allow people to put a CD logo on disks with that sort of DRM crap |
| 11:38.49 | Dark_Shikari | true |
| 11:38.59 | Dark_Shikari | also, CDs have a special situation where it is physically impossible to DRM them at all |
| 11:39.19 | Dark_Shikari | with a Blu-ray, you could theoretically stop someone from getting the raw, undecoded bitstream, forcing them to re-encode the video |
| 11:39.30 | kblin | nods |
| 11:39.31 | Dark_Shikari | however, a CD is already uncompressed, so the decoded bitstream is equivalent to the undecoded one |
| 11:39.40 | Dark_Shikari | so the analog hole breaks everything |
| 11:39.52 | kblin | doesn't stop people from trying, though |
| 11:39.56 | Dark_Shikari | of course. |
| 11:40.21 | kblin | I spent about an hour in that store before getting my refund :) |
| 11:40.28 | Dark_Shikari | lol |
| 11:41.38 | kblin | "we don't refund cds that were opnened" "how am I going to notice it's not working in my stereo without opening it", repeat and escalate up through different levels |
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| 11:42.27 | kblin | of course now I've found an easier method.. |
| 11:43.11 | kblin | yay for two semesters of law lectures :) |
| 11:44.14 | ojwb | kblin; it's not a CD of course, so that policy is irrelevant... |
| 11:44.23 | ojwb | though I don't see that argument working so well |
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| 11:46.30 | kblin | they're legally required to sell goods that work for the intended purpose. so if I buy an audio disk that they claim works in my cd player and it doesn't, they are required to get me a disk that works. failing this, they need to refund me |
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| 11:48.44 | MatthewWilkes | yep, you just say the magic words "Sale of Goods act, 1979" and you get your refund :) |
| 11:48.45 | MatthewWilkes | there's a cd store here called Fopp that has a "Suck it and see" policy |
| 11:48.45 | MatthewWilkes | you can get a refund if you think it sucks |
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| 11:49.53 | kblin | well, the sale of goods act doesn't apply here, but there's a similar thing here |
| 11:50.03 | kblin | I'd have to look up the paragraph |
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| 11:51.56 | MatthewWilkes | yeah, obviously, that's just what it is in the UK |
| 11:52.01 | kblin | ah, 434 BGB |
| 11:52.36 | MatthewWilkes | memorable ;) |
| 11:55.07 | kblin | actually reading the legalese, it seems that as long as it looks like a CD, I can expect it to work in my cd player :) |
| 11:55.33 | ojwb | didn't fopp go bust? |
| 11:55.35 | Ivanovic | :) |
| 11:55.43 | kblin | of course this is depending on what a judge thinks "looks like a CD" |
| 11:56.03 | Ivanovic | i'd say "there is CD written on the box" |
| 11:56.05 | ojwb | DVDs look like CDs to your average judge |
| 11:56.06 | kblin | so I'm pretty sure I can't return a DVD because it doesn't work on my cd player |
| 11:56.28 | kblin | but if the box says CD, like Ivanovic said, I'm pretty much on the safe side |
| 11:56.36 | ojwb | indeed |
| 11:56.48 | Ivanovic | jupp |
| 11:57.14 | MatthewWilkes | ojwb: They did, then got bought up by HMV, are reopening slowly |
| 11:57.25 | ojwb | ah |
| 11:57.34 | MatthewWilkes | ojwb: I went yesterday, got 3 disc King Kong, The Weatherman and Hot Fuzz for £9 |
| 11:57.51 | Ivanovic | kblin: though it would be interesting to see how a judge would react in regards to a completely buggy game |
| 11:58.06 | Ivanovic | since by now it seems to be normal that they are damn buggy, so it is to be accepted |
| 11:58.07 | Ivanovic | ;) |
| 11:58.20 | kblin | Ivanovic: like "it said windows 95 or better, so I installed linux"? |
| 11:58.30 | Ivanovic | ah, yeah, a good one, too |
| 11:58.43 | MatthewWilkes | kblin: It said "better" ;) |
| 11:58.53 | kblin | yeah |
| 11:59.27 | kblin | probably the reason why software these days explicityly enumerates the supported OSes |
| 11:59.34 | Ivanovic | jupp |
| 11:59.51 | MatthewWilkes | If I had to install windows these days I'd probably still pick 98SE2 |
| 12:00.11 | Ivanovic | win2k ain't too bad either |
| 12:00.19 | kblin | MatthewWilkes: on real hardware or a vm? |
| 12:00.26 | Dark_Shikari | 98SE2 was amazing, with one problem |
| 12:00.30 | Dark_Shikari | it would work perfectly for months, years |
| 12:00.33 | Dark_Shikari | and then one day, it would start acting weird |
| 12:00.38 | Dark_Shikari | and suddenly go to crap until you reinstalled. |
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| 12:01.02 | kblin | Dark_Shikari: it probably had a timer in the registry somewhere ;) |
| 12:01.06 | Dark_Shikari | lol |
| 12:01.23 | MatthewWilkes | kblin: Either. I have a win box at uni somewhere |
| 12:01.56 | kblin | Ivanovic: given that most games are buggy, I guess you're screwed there. "..as common for similar products" |
| 12:02.09 | Ivanovic | kblin: the question is "how buggy" |
| 12:02.16 | kblin | yeah, true |
| 12:02.32 | Ivanovic | and what about copy protection (drm anyone?) |
| 12:02.48 | kblin | MatthewWilkes: on real hardware I tend to like to be able to use usb storage |
| 12:03.02 | kblin | win win98, that's usually a lost cause |
| 12:03.42 | kblin | Ivanovic: I don't buy games that won't work in wine anymore |
| 12:04.12 | Ivanovic | time for breakfast, cu |
| 12:04.16 | kblin | incidently, some of the really popular games out there are drm-free |
| 12:04.24 | kblin | Ivanovic: brunch? |
| 12:04.36 | Dark_Shikari | yup, especially recently it's become a (good) trend to omit the drm |
| 12:04.55 | Dark_Shikari | other games end up patching it out not long after release due to it causing tons of problems |
| 12:05.05 | kblin | nods |
| 12:05.26 | kblin | I like how I'm able to play all of my blizzard games without having to go look for a CD |
| 12:05.35 | Dark_Shikari | starcraft still asks me for a cd |
| 12:05.55 | kblin | the latest patch should fix that |
| 12:06.25 | kblin | read the readme, though, you need to copy some content as well |
| 12:06.30 | Dark_Shikari | oh yeah, that mess |
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| 12:17.11 | kblin | say, "a" in front of a vowel always turns into "an", right? |
| 12:17.52 | thebolt | i don't know any exceptions to that rule at least |
| 12:17.54 | thebolt | Hi all |
| 12:24.33 | Dark_Shikari | a vowel *sound* |
| 12:24.34 | Dark_Shikari | not a vowel |
| 12:24.42 | Dark_Shikari | thus, if you have a word that starts with a vowel but not a vowel sound, it isn't "an" |
| 12:24.51 | Dark_Shikari | in other words, it follows the rule of speech, not rule of text. |
| 12:24.51 | thebolt | yea, true |
| 12:25.08 | thebolt | and other way around.. (not that i can think of any examples of other way, but i am sure there are) |
| 12:25.09 | Dark_Shikari | "an hour" vs "a hoot" |
| 12:25.18 | thebolt | there you have one :) |
| 12:25.40 | kblin | so is it "size of a usual thing" or "size of an usual thing" |
| 12:25.48 | Dark_Shikari | a usual thing |
| 12:25.54 | kblin | phew |
| 12:25.59 | Dark_Shikari | because usual is actually yoo-joo-uhl |
| 12:26.15 | Dark_Shikari | or more like yoo-zhoo-uhl or whatever |
| 12:26.51 | Dark_Shikari | the problem with "an usual" is that it would sound like "unusual" ;) |
| 12:26.54 | ojwb | and "a union" |
| 12:27.16 | Dark_Shikari | that actually seems to explain why using an/a in the wrong places sounds awkward--the purpose of "an" vs "a" is to separate the words better |
| 12:27.32 | kblin | nods |
| 12:28.04 | thebolt | there are a bunch of words beginning with u that has "a".. (all that are pronounced [j..]) |
| 12:28.21 | Dark_Shikari | (it's always interesting how languages evolve simultaneously because of textual issues and verbal issues) |
| 12:28.23 | kblin | for long us |
| 12:28.34 | Dark_Shikari | since, for example, a vs an makes no sense in text, only in speech |
| 12:29.01 | kblin | compare "a usual" vs "an unusual" |
| 12:29.09 | ojwb | http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/hotel has some more |
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| 12:30.34 | kblin | thanks |
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| 12:49.10 | kblin | "The traditional usage is still preferable, at least in Britain, but it may soon become a lost cause." hehe |
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| 12:56.53 | jaguarandi | !next |
| 12:56.54 | socinfo | "next" is July 6: Mentors and students can begin submitting mid-term evaluations. |
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| 13:00.42 | thebolt | hey mdc_mobile |
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| 18:26.13 | [RTS]BN2VS | Is there a map with all 2009 GSoC students on it yet? |
| 18:32.07 | Lennie | all of them no |
| 18:32.22 | Lennie | the map with mentor -> student should be there soon |
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| 18:37.54 | [RTS]BN2VS | Lennie: where can I find this map? |
| 18:38.08 | Lennie | you can't at the moment |
| 18:38.16 | Lennie | but you'll find them on each organization's home page |
| 18:38.51 | [RTS]BN2VS | ok. Any idea on when the map will be there? |
| 18:39.09 | Lennie | not at the moment, sorry |
| 18:39.24 | Lennie | I hope before midterm review starts :) |
| 18:40.12 | Lennie | the map with all students will probably be released after GSoC ends |
| 18:40.30 | [RTS]BN2VS | Yeah. I still don't know if there is anyone from my country in GSoC, and I don't wanna bother the whole list by starting another "Any GSoC'ers from country abc" topic :p |
| 18:40.32 | Lennie | since afaik it is part of the Survey project that is being done by a GSoC student |
| 18:40.47 | Lennie | For Melange |
| 18:40.57 | [RTS]BN2VS | aha cool |
| 18:41.19 | Lennie | it should include the map |
| 18:41.23 | Lennie | and more fancy tables/figures ^^ |
| 18:41.33 | [RTS]BN2VS | :) |
| 18:41.34 | Mek | number of accepted students per country is in the google docs document at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p6DuoA2lJToKmUzoSq6raZQ |
| 18:42.01 | Lennie | yes but not for 2009 :) |
| 18:42.06 | Mek | also for 2009 |
| 18:43.41 | Lennie | did I misread? |
| 18:44.00 | Mek | not all tabs have info for 2009, but the #ACCEPTED Students by Country definately has |
| 18:44.00 | Lennie | o yes |
| 18:44.02 | Lennie | stupid me :D |
| 18:44.12 | Lennie | thanks Mek :D |
| 18:44.15 | [RTS]BN2VS | Thnx for that link Mek |
| 18:45.27 | Lennie | anyhow I've put the mentor <-> student map on the agenda for our next call |
| 18:45.46 | Lennie | it is not far for complete but there were some issues with drawing a line between the markers |
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