IRC log for #flyspray on 20120501

00:21.14NullivexSean-Der: u around?
00:43.13Sean-DerNullivex, yes sorry!
01:25.43NullivexSean-Der: whats your username in FS? I want to have floele add you as a developer
01:25.57NullivexSean-Der: that way tasks can be assigned to you. right now I own most of them
01:26.07NullivexSean-Der: even if they have nothing to do with me
01:26.17Sean-DerSean-Der is my username on bugs.flyspray.org
01:26.26Sean-DerYou can take all the bugs thats fine :p
01:26.50Sean-DerActually that is really good please assign me some so I can stop procrastinating haa
01:27.20Nullivexya and we can get a lot more organized
01:27.33Nullivexi feel like we are snowballing this release and if we dont do it soon people are going to lose interest again
01:28.35Sean-DerNullivex, yea I am starting to get a little burned out. I have been patching since November. I am glad you are here Nullivex we needed a good leader :)
01:31.16NullivexSean-Der: ya, I just saw no one else really pushing to get things moving. Lots of patches and good work, just no organization. I notice if people dont see their changes get pushed to the public they arent very likely to continue to contribute
01:32.00NullivexSean-Der: this is also part of my argument for even a basic extension system because contributers wouldnt need to go through us to get their addons out on the market which is huge for us
01:32.51Nullivexthis also gives people that want to modify the system an easy documented way to do it, you have to think nearly everyone using FS is a coder of some sort and if it was easy for them to make modifications i know they would
01:36.48Sean-DerNullivex, agree 100% with you. The easier we make Flyspray to hack the more it feels it target. The entry point for Bugzilla is high, Flyspray is perfect for the aspiring team or developer. I know Murugan is working on our Top Level site, but the bad info is quite off putting
01:37.10Sean-DerSo assign away and this weekend I will start getting my share done
01:39.55Nullivexheck the reason i got onboard with the project was for the fact i wanted to start modifying some things
01:43.40Sean-DerNullivex, so good thing it was so obfuscated or we would have never infected you :p
01:44.27Nullivexwell i hate hacking code like this without a chance of it getting merged, cuz otherwise i have to re-apply the patches every time a new version comes out
01:44.41Nullivexso i went looking around the site and then noticed things were dead
01:44.48Nullivexit was weird how we all showed up at the same time
01:50.12Sean-DerNullivex, I wanted to sharpen up my skills and I have never done open source work before, so I thought what the hell! Yea it was so weird you and scott literally showed up in a week of each other. Now we are a big happy family :D
01:51.50Nullivexhehe yep, check this out
01:51.51Nullivexfor($vlan=++$pool['lo']; $vlan <= $pool['hi']; $vlan++) $vlans[] = $vlan;
01:51.57Nullivexi actually found a use for precrement
01:53.45Sean-DerYou hipster :p I felt so cool because I finally found a reason to use a do{} while() hahah I made sure to print it out and frame it
01:54.44Nullivexthe first time i did one was pretty chill
01:54.49Nullivexnow i find myself using them all over
01:54.55Nullivexthey are most common for timeout related coding
01:55.31Nullivexespecially if you are moving data around in streams, the use for them there is pretty much a neccessity
01:56.34Sean-DerNullivex, I used mine while waiting for a null terminator. I think am going to start following the Go style and always use a for()
02:02.17NullivexSean-Der: check this out http://pastebin.com/BbYBEYCk
02:05.39Sean-Deractually locking the tables before pulling data out of them, very tidy :D uhh ohh there is a wildcard though
02:06.01Nullivexwhich on the select?
02:06.57Sean-DerNullivex, haha yes. I got chastised for it once so know I am scared to even dream of it
02:07.43NullivexSean-Der: but its future proof, i see the downsides to it in terms of memory allocation, but it beats rewrite an entire library every time i add a db field
02:07.53NullivexSean-Der: especially when those db fields get passed to unkown sources
02:08.07NullivexSean-Der: like straight to templates that need to make use of an unkown set of variables
02:08.33Nullivexyou have to lock the tables in this case though otherwise you run the risk of a race condition if you assign two at once
02:09.34NullivexSean-Der: however, in your case the only thing i use is the vlan field so i modified the query :p
02:11.11Sean-DerNullivex, Muhahah my goal is to always be able to whine about a code snippet. I am always explicit for minimalist reasons. Even though an extra key in my array REALLY doesn't matter I always like to work with the least data possible
02:13.57*** join/#flyspray scottman (~scottman@75-169-55-144.slkc.qwest.net)
02:14.05scottmanSean-Der: your alive
02:14.25Nullivexscottman: ya, he is haha its surprising
02:14.48Sean-Derscottman, My network connection is... but the man is not :)
02:14.51NullivexSean-Der: thanks for the critiscism in that case i did change the call, but there are instances where it makes sense not to code like that, depends on how you use the data really
02:16.21Sean-DerNullivex, I always worry about getting fat though. You see that when layers and layers get added on. It scares me how inefficent code becomes when you have an ORM and a template engine and so on
02:17.36Nullivexya
02:17.56Nullivexas long as you make it a RULE that nothing gets nested past 2 you have nothing to worry about
02:18.06scottmanhides his source code.
02:18.22Nullivexall the code  i write has a controller -> model, then controller -> template
02:18.44Nullivexthe controller handles all the data jockying so it never goes deeper
02:18.48scottmani use template engines, tt for perl and i like rain tpl right now, then i do what Nullivex does.
02:18.51Nullivexkeeps the code controllable
02:19.50Nullivexthen keep all your business logic inside functions helps keep your memory usage low, since php frees the memory on return
02:20.08Nullivexthen stay away from arrays as references
02:20.18Nullivexthey shouldnt even allow arrays to be referenced imo
02:20.44Nullivexwell i guess in some circumstands (read only) it makes sense but if u have an array that gets passed as a reference to a function
02:20.55Nullivexthen that function adds 1000 entries to it there is no way to control you rmemory usage
02:20.56Sean-DerIt just seems more work than time you gain. I don't get things like smarty I maintain a product that uses it, I waste more time learning the syntax and doing it correctly than anything else
02:21.01Nullivex<PROTECTED>
02:21.34Sean-DerThere was no opening tag :) when did this rant begin haha
02:21.41Nullivexhaha
02:21.51scottmansmarty is a big heavy
02:21.55Nullivexwell i use templates that done use php but there is no logic in them
02:21.58Nullivexthe controller does all the logic
02:22.07Nullivexinstead of a template with logic
02:22.10Nullivexi use template chunks
02:22.40Nullivexsometimes the chunking of the templates gets a bit cryptic but it performs well and takes about 30 seconds to learn the system
02:23.01scottmantemplates can be awesome though
02:23.05scottmanits just confusing ones
02:23.09scottmansuck
02:23.19Nullivexya they shouldnt be a programming language in themselves
02:23.25scottmanit really helps when you have noobs who suck at programming
02:23.29scottmanbut are more designers
02:23.30scottman;0
02:23.33Nullivexi have never been a fan of php based templating because eventually someone will stick too much logic in them
02:23.53scottmanyup
02:23.58Nullivexand the php method makes output control a pain
02:24.06Nullivexcuz you have to do a bunch of buffer wrapping
02:24.32Nullivexthe template class i wrote hasnt been modified since 2004 lol
02:24.37Nullivexand its on sourceforge :p
02:24.54scottmanhttp://bugs.flyspray.org/task/1719?project=1&order=severity&sort=desc&order2=id&sort2=desc
02:24.56scottmansee that
02:25.01scottmanthat is sorta funny
02:25.41Sean-Derscottman, what is the element ID you speak of?! hahha . Maybe after more work I will see the point to a template engine, but PHP is easy and in the end I think you over engineer stuff
02:26.08scottmanSean-Der: whats this element ID you are referring me to
02:26.30Sean-Derscottman, you made a joke about web designers hah
02:26.35scottmani know
02:26.37scottman;)
02:26.38NullivexSean-Der: under-engineering can lead to more resource usage than over-engineering :p
02:26.43scottmani dont over engineeeeer
02:27.11scottmani try to have job security
02:27.13scottman;)
02:27.20Sean-Derscottman, IF ITS NOT IN ASSEMBLY ITS FAT AND OVER ENGINEER
02:27.27Nullivexminimal functions that dont recycle data end up using more resources than a more complex set of code
02:27.32NullivexLOL
02:27.36scottmanah the assembly web server ;)
02:28.03Sean-DerThats why I write code with pointers everywhere and variables with names like $stuff and $data
02:28.15Sean-DerThey can never get rid of me now!
02:28.32scottmandoes php have a pointer system?
02:28.34scottmanlol
02:28.44NullivexSean-Der: http://openlss.com/index.php?act=pages&page=download you should definitely read through the code, show take you about half an hour
02:28.50Nullivexlet me know what you think
02:28.53Nullivexlol ya hardly
02:29.12Nullivexeven with a pointer php still does malloc every 5 seconds
02:29.20Nullivexthe oop system in php leaks memory like crazy
02:29.30Sean-DerNullivex, ok I will!
02:29.43scottmani like to static reference
02:29.54scottmanwell use static classes
02:30.03scottmaninstead of making objects
02:30.25Sean-DerMemory usage is not a strong point of PHP. But really you shouldn't being using it outside of webdev so I have never had an issue. I always do have server side stuff in Python
02:30.28Nullivexya i like using enum fields in myisam accompanied by class constants and a static array of those constants
02:30.32Nullivexso nice for typing and drop downs
02:30.45scottmanPython :0
02:30.58scottmanyour one of those dudes
02:31.12NullivexSean-Der: python's memory management isnt all that good either, if you need it to be low on memory u gotta use a strongly typed language IMO
02:31.22scottmanf its all about Perl
02:31.36Nullivexif perl had an exception system i could tolerate it
02:31.42scottmanlol
02:31.47scottmancpan
02:31.55Nullivexya i used the one out of there
02:32.00scottmanim sure there is a module
02:32.00Nullivexit was still hacky
02:32.15Nullivexexceptions are the shit
02:32.19Sean-Derscottman, Is it still 2000 people still use scary scary perl
02:32.24Sean-Der;D
02:32.31scottmanim trying to bring it back
02:32.33scottman;)
02:32.40scottmanthe hype train is starting
02:32.45scottmanbut no one is getting on
02:32.53scottman:(
02:32.57Sean-DerNext thing I know you are gonna start talking about Haskell and Node.js hah
02:33.03scottmanive tried to convert my friend
02:33.05scottmanhe went to .net
02:33.05Nullivexlol @ haskell
02:33.23scottmandude
02:33.24scottmannode.js
02:33.31Sean-DerWhy god would you ever go to the Microsoft stack
02:33.33Nullivexcouch db!
02:33.36scottmanive tried to get intot that
02:33.40scottmani dont think its ready yet
02:33.41NullivexF#
02:33.52scottmanhaha
02:33.56Nullivexf# makes me laugh
02:33.57scottmanmy friend is an idiot
02:34.05Nullivexa microsoft language running on nix*
02:34.10scottmanlikes to use a GUI
02:34.14scottmani dunno
02:34.42Sean-DerSQL is dead, its all about buckets of data. I will hold out for a little while but I will pick up MongoDB eventually
02:34.59scottmanpff no way, sql will never go away
02:35.27Nullivexya agreed with scott on that
02:35.30scottmanis mongodb the json db
02:35.42scottmanbrb putting kid to bed
02:35.47Sean-DerOh I wholly agree on SQL never going away
02:36.02Nullivexi was sensing some sarcasm on ur post there Sean-Der
02:36.11Nullivexabout it being dead
02:36.11scottmanif anything
02:36.11Nullivexhaha
02:36.14scottmanORM is taking off
02:36.16scottman:D
02:36.17Sean-DerIts just the industry goes crazy over every damn buzzword
02:36.20Sean-DerNOOOOO
02:36.25scottmanyes
02:36.28scottmanORM
02:36.29scottmanyes
02:36.37Sean-DerYour killing me BURN IT WITH FIRE
02:37.08Nullivexlol
02:37.42Sean-DerWhy does everyone want to reinvent the wheel. Its like how everyone thinks that OOP was the answer. People need to actually RTFM
02:38.54Nullivexoop is a nice way to organize code but the expenses are very high
02:39.19scottmanone reason why java does good on large scale projects because of its organization
02:39.19Nullivexi would do procedural programming all day if we just had a nicer way to do namespacing
02:39.20scottmanjsp
02:39.53Nullivexi like function names like "create" then i like to have a classname of "users" so u get user->create
02:40.00Nullivexbut that doesnt mean it needs to be a big bloaty class
02:40.15Nullivexcould just be an abstract class with static functions and i would be a happy camper
02:40.48Nullivexand i have seen some people do some really f'd up stuff with classes
02:40.59scottmandont look at me
02:41.00Nullivexlike FS does lol
02:41.13Nullivexthe OOP in FS is a joke and makes me laugh
02:41.17Sean-DerI like structs to be honest. Data makes sense to be stored as an object, but functions shouldn't imo
02:41.25Nullivexthe installer for example, have u guys read that code?
02:41.48NullivexSean-Der: it makes sense to have functions that manipulate that data to be in the class tho
02:42.14Nullivexim serious though, if you want to laugh at some OOP code read the FS installer
02:42.35Sean-DerNullivex, It will make a good comedy night hahah
02:43.44Nullivexya, we need to do some heavy overhauling on FS at somepoint but getting the ball rolling is still most important
02:44.14Nullivexthe FS code is a hard to follow labyrinth
02:44.46Sean-DerI find that creating a super class that stores functions and then all the sub class inheriting most of the time is over complicated. OOP is good in some cases, but I have yet to be converted. structs are logical representations of objects that you use a Library of functions to manipulate
02:45.40Nullivexwell i have become accustomed to making a class for each database table or group of database tables
02:45.55Nullivexmodels essentially is the only thing i use classes for
02:46.02Nullivexfor scripting i rarely use classes just procedural
02:46.09scottmanthe installer yes
02:46.10scottmanhaha
02:46.24Nullivexinstaller is such a mess
02:46.27scottmanyup
02:46.35Nullivexi exited that code quickly after i opened it
02:46.46Nullivexfixed the php 5.3 stuff and got out before i started rewriting it
02:46.52Sean-DerI will bring a girl home and read her the code. It will surely impress her
02:47.12Nullivex* nullivex hopes sean isnt serious!
02:47.22scottmani do that as well make a class for each db table
02:47.34Sean-Derjust labeling static functions probably halved thrown warnings
02:48.14Sean-DerOf course I am not serious! What the hell would a girl be doing associating with me!
02:48.43Nullivexlol
02:49.04Nullivexi used to go out with a coder girl, she's out in utah
02:49.07scottmanyou know what
02:49.27Nullivexproblem was, she was a C# girl :(
02:49.31scottmanit just happened for me
02:49.41scottmanthen next thing you know we got married
02:49.43scottmanhave a kid
02:49.46scottmanand now a nother one
02:50.01scottmannow i have limited time
02:50.06scottmanto do things
02:50.07scottman:(
02:50.15Sean-DerNullivex, Never copulate with crazy... once you go Microsoft you never go back
02:50.29scottmandid you guys see that java video
02:50.30Nullivexscottman: you should be thankful for that, its good to have balance
02:50.35Sean-Derscottman, Thats what you get for having a social life :P
02:50.35scottmani am
02:50.56scottmanhold on i'll get the java video link
02:51.01Nullivexi have the hardest time keeping from getting completely addicted, good thing is friends come up start partying i have no choice but to bail
02:51.21Nullivexwhich is going to happen in about an hour here
02:51.23scottmanhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CTyb89iRLw
02:52.32Sean-DerHAHAAHA hope your not doing any open source...
02:53.03scottmani want to use a language that doesnt just run in windows
02:53.05scottmanhahaha
02:53.07scottmanfunny stuff
02:53.24Sean-Derportability has never been a concern for Microsoft
02:53.38Sean-DerTHROUGH SOAP THROUGH SOAP
02:54.33Sean-DerScala Johansen hahaha
02:59.06Nullivexlmao
02:59.09Nullivexawesome video
02:59.26Nullivexhmm hmm hmm
02:59.32Nullivexwhats the fastest way to diff two array sets
02:59.53Nullivexoh array_diff
02:59.54Nullivexlol
02:59.55Nulliveximma noob
02:59.58NullivexRTFM
03:00.31scottmanpff array_diff
03:00.32scottmannoob
03:00.51Sean-DerNullivex, I would write my own algorithm that starts on a random key.
03:01.02Sean-DerTHEN PATCH EVERY PHP INTALL
03:01.05scottmanSean-Der: would you use a counter?
03:01.08Sean-DerIts for the best
03:01.40Sean-Derscottman, No! I have got no hw done because of you guys
03:02.19Sean-Der-_- I need to drop out of school screw lower money I hate college I have no friends there all business majors
03:02.38scottmandont drop
03:02.45Nullivexya dont do that, what school u going to?
03:02.59Sean-DerUniversity of Cincinnati
03:03.11Nullivexaside from one guy i used to work with in chicago, i have no friends that are coders
03:03.23Nullivexive gotten used to it
03:03.46Sean-DerI have NO friends though. No one is into music or good food. Everyone wants to party and *do chicks*
03:04.10Sean-DerI should have left Cincinnati for school I was just afraid to lose my job
03:04.13scottmani have a few coder friends but they all lack motiviation
03:04.13Nullivexlol sounds pretty normal to me
03:04.19Nullivex$add = array_diff($cur_dcs,$vlans); $remove = array_diff($vlans,$cur_dcs);
03:04.24Nullivexthat should work right?
03:04.35scottmansi
03:04.36Nullivexmeh never be afraid of losing a job
03:04.57Sean-DerHow will I eat then :D
03:05.00Nullivexfor every job you lose there will be 10 companies ready to hire you
03:05.11Nullivexspeaking of which Sean-Der if you want to work in the chicago area
03:05.22Nullivexi have like 3 head hunters that keep badgering me about recommending someone to them
03:06.36Sean-DerNullivex, I will get turned down because of my age. I am applied for CfA and this startup event in Chicago. If you think it is worth it though I will give it a shot!
03:07.30Nullivexhow old are you?
03:07.36Nullivexi got hired at the state of colorado when i was 20
03:07.49Sean-DerI am just barely 18
03:07.53Sean-DerBARELY LEGAL
03:08.58Nullivexheh yave give it one more year
03:09.02Nullivexill pass on your resume
03:09.44scottmanim heading off
03:09.48scottmancya
03:09.50Sean-DerI will work for pennies though. I just need experience I will work 60 hrs for 40 hrs of wages. I just don't want to get stuck blahh work is stressful stuff
03:09.55Sean-DerBye scottman !
03:10.01Sean-DerMay the force be with you
03:10.02Nullivexlaters scottman
03:10.25Nullivexmy advice Sean-Der go enjoy 18 and program a lil later, i mean dont give up on it completely
03:10.36Nullivexbut dont work yourself today at this age, there is no great payoff for it
03:10.56Nullivexim only 24 and been doing this stuff since i was 12
03:11.03Nullivexworking professionally as a programmer since 19
03:11.49Nullivexand i really wish i would have went and screwed around a little more but i am mkaing up for it now i guess
03:12.39Sean-DerNullivex, I want to be like you someday. You have your stuff together most people at 24 are still crap as far as jobs. I just want to be respected as a programmer
03:15.29xrogaan_hey
03:15.34xrogaan_oh, I got you !
03:15.41Sean-DerRUN
03:15.55xrogaan_IF I GET YOU, I EAT YOU!
03:16.05NullivexUH OH
03:16.22xrogaan_anyway, the flyspray.sf.net redirect to the wrong website
03:16.35Sean-DerI am not a tasty snack..
03:16.39xrogaan_also, http://flyspray.org/development point to an unmaintained git repository
03:17.00Sean-Derflyspray.rocks.cc -_- hah
03:17.29Nullivexhaha i guess we should report both of those
03:18.03xrogaan_on another hand, is the 0.9.9 branch good enough to be installed ?
03:18.22Nullivexaside froma little timezone fiddling it should be fine
03:18.26Nullivexwe have no open criticals on it
03:19.03xrogaan_yeah, I meant "does the install works" ;)
03:20.38xrogaan_arr, the sf.net repositories are slow as hell
03:21.33Nullivexhaha that they are
03:21.41Nullivexand it should install and work just fine and should be stable
03:21.47Nullivexits frozen for release
03:22.33xrogaan_nice
03:22.42xrogaan_i've been following the ml discussions
03:23.11xrogaan_All I need, is a good bts and the ability to closes issues through commit messages
03:25.26Nullivexclosing through commit messages may take some modifications
03:25.41Nullivexbut i have been trying to spearhead an extension system and i think that would be a great extension
03:25.57xrogaan_well
03:26.09xrogaan_you don't need extensions
03:26.42xrogaan_if both the repository and the bts are hosted on the same machine, you could write a hook that update the database
03:27.05Nullivexi meant extension as a way to handle custom code that shouldnt neccessarily be part of the core
03:27.27xrogaan_an API would be fine
03:27.40Nullivexya well we need that too
03:29.36Sean-DerWell I am out for the night! Good talking to you Nullivex! Also xrogaan_ the extension will rock because we will have a library of extensions that the community can develop on the fly. Without having the edit the main tree of Flyspray
03:30.02xrogaan_extensions are there to upgrade flyspray
03:30.14Nullivexalright Sean-Der have a good one
03:30.14xrogaan_in a way, adding features.
03:30.21xrogaan_bye Sean-Der
03:30.21Nullivexya
03:30.32Nullivexand it will help us stay more minimal as a core package
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14:22.57Sean-DerNullivex, I went back and found some of the bugs I closed. I am missing a couple, but it would be just a huge pain to find them for a commit list that no one is going to read
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20:46.19Sean-DerDid we ever throw around the idea of setting permission on a project in Flyspray by group?
20:46.54Sean-DerOr is this something that would not be worth doing. My boss complained that he couldn't lock underlings out of R&D stuff
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