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| 17:36.43 | joe_bleau | T0mw: did I read in the logs that you were using the Philips LPC arm micros? |
| 17:38.07 | T0mW | joe_bleau: yeah, still doing "surgery" on the prototype board. |
| 17:38.47 | joe_bleau | I recently did a small design using the '2106. Kinda curious what tools you ended up using. |
| 17:38.51 | T0mW | joe_bleau: this design is both LPC2106 and LPC2138 processors on the board |
| 17:39.07 | joe_bleau | I used gcc, crash and burn debugging. No JTAG on this one--too lazy to work it all out. |
| 17:39.19 | T0mW | joe_bleau: gdb-6.1, gcc-3.4.3, Abitron BDI2000 |
| 17:39.37 | T0mW | s/Abitron/Abatron/ |
| 17:39.39 | joe_bleau | What OS on your workstation? |
| 17:39.43 | T0mW | linux |
| 17:39.55 | T0mW | cygwin doesn't appeal to me |
| 17:39.57 | joe_bleau | I've got an ebay search stored for BDI2000, but they're pricey |
| 17:40.17 | T0mW | worth it though, mine was $2700 USD |
| 17:40.35 | T0mW | joe_bleau: you can debug ROM with it |
| 17:40.49 | joe_bleau | Yeah, seems like $1500 is the going rate used. Does it require firmware updates to switch chips? |
| 17:41.39 | joe_bleau | (I'd want CPU32 BDM support, ARM jtag, and possibly MIPS jtag) |
| 17:42.03 | T0mW | bbiab, I spilled some sugar and need to vacuum |
| 17:42.17 | joe_bleau | ack |
| 17:42.42 | joe_bleau | (reviewing 2138 datasheet in the interim) |
| 17:45.04 | T0mW | joe_bleau: back |
| 17:45.30 | T0mW | joe_bleau: did you find out how useless the External Interrupt pins were? (EINT0-EINT2) |
| 17:45.41 | joe_bleau | Looks like the '2138 and '2106 have a pretty similar feature set and foorprint...wait...does the '2138 have an onchip 1.8V reg? |
| 17:46.04 | joe_bleau | Not using external interrupts. Only timer tick and UART RX, I think. |
| 17:46.19 | T0mW | yes, single supply, no ETM macro cell so you can use primary jtag without losing functions |
| 17:46.33 | joe_bleau | I did think that the master SPI pin bug was silly. |
| 17:46.55 | T0mW | joe_bleau: external INTs on 2106 are level activated, you cannot clear the interrupt until the pin returns to VDD |
| 17:46.56 | joe_bleau | I think I saw you complain about the ETM pins...I thought you could disable them independant of the JTAG pins. |
| 17:47.32 | T0mW | joe_bleau: so far, nobody has shown me how to do that. I spoke with app engineer last week, nothing from him about disabling ETM |
| 17:47.54 | T0mW | joe_bleau: the 2106 doc does not show where the ETM is located |
| 17:48.20 | joe_bleau | Hang on, I'm checking...this is ringing a bell. |
| 17:49.10 | T0mW | joe_bleau: I have to use the secondary jtag and it is a PITA to use. You have to reset the chip, stand back for 500ms to wait for startup code to switch jtag to secondary, then HALT the chip |
| 17:49.29 | T0mW | in 500ms, you can execute a lot of code at 59MHz |
| 17:49.59 | T0mW | but, in gdb, you can re-run the startup code: jump _startup |
| 17:51.22 | T0mW | joe_bleau: I'm still getting used to the BDI2000, but it has been invaluable in checking out the electronics of the board. Also for banging registers inside the processor to learn WTF the datasheet is trying to tell you in their obtuse language |
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| 17:53.30 | T0mW | joe_bleau: one problem I'll be wrestling with is the SPI controller. I'd like to run the controller in a burst (on demand) mode of operation. I guess I'll have to kick it off via a timer interrupt sampling the SPI device status pin(s) |
| 17:54.19 | T0mW | the SPI controller is kind of hoky the way they implemented it. not what I would call a clean solution. |
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| 17:54.48 | joe_bleau | I must have confused the 2106 and 2119 series...looks like they can turn off the ETM pins with a pullup at boot. |
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| 17:55.28 | T0mW | yeah, I guess the LPC210x devices is where they learn what not to do |
| 17:55.33 | joe_bleau | I don't really understand the SPI complete interrupt. Seems like at a reasonable rate, your SPI shifter will be done in just a few instructions anyway. |
| 17:55.44 | joe_bleau | Like code protection? |
| 17:56.15 | joe_bleau | I'm still hacked that the UART doesn't have a true transmit complete interrupt/status. Nice for '485, where you've got a driver to control. |
| 17:56.48 | T0mW | joe_bleau: I used the MAX3100's for the RS485 |
| 17:56.50 | T0mW | SPI |
| 17:57.30 | joe_bleau | I played with that part once. Seems a little crazy to shift and then shift again |
| 17:57.37 | joe_bleau | phone call... |
| 17:57.52 | T0mW | joe_bleau: fortunately, the LPC2106 is only a serial (communications) processor in my design, it is a store and forward type of operation so it has little to do |
| 17:58.48 | T0mW | joe_bleau: that is what I mean about the SPI controller, it is very simplistic, variable length words or DMA operation would have been nice |
| 17:59.53 | joe_bleau | SPI DMA would be sweet. I think the Atmel micros offer something like that. |
| 18:00.05 | T0mW | yeah, but, no jtag on atmel |
| 18:00.10 | joe_bleau | !! |
| 18:00.29 | T0mW | they have some monitor IIRC |
| 18:00.51 | joe_bleau | Well, I'm sure someone else will do it then. Seems like every issue of EDN someone is pimpin' their new ARM7TDMI core microcontroller. I love it! |
| 18:01.05 | T0mW | tough to interface to gdb was my guess without the jtag |
| 18:01.07 | joe_bleau | What, ST, TI, ADC, maybe others? |
| 18:01.59 | joe_bleau | My dream is a cheap, fast, gdb based jtag unit, probably USB. Open source, of course. And I'd like it to run under Cygwin as well. |
| 18:02.08 | T0mW | joe_bleau: well, I've debugged for years using an LED + LCD screen and am tired of it. This time I wanted something to get down into the code and do hard breakpoints. |
| 18:02.26 | T0mW | joe_bleau: I think that that is the purpose of OpenJTAG? |
| 18:02.43 | joe_bleau | Not up on it. Other than griping, I haven't done the research. |
| 18:02.51 | T0mW | joe_bleau: I haven't checked them out. |
| 18:03.23 | T0mW | joe_bleau: this board is going to be interesting, I hung an MMC onto the 2138 part's SPI |
| 18:03.23 | joe_bleau | I'm spoiled to Singlestep for my CPU32 work. I can deal with gdb, but the text interface seems so clunky. |
| 18:03.44 | T0mW | joe_bleau: what's singlestep, commercial product? |
| 18:03.57 | joe_bleau | Then I have to use something like OCD Commander (for all the JuiceBox hacking), and gdb seems light years ahead! |
| 18:04.07 | joe_bleau | Yep. Was DDI, now part of Wind River. |
| 18:04.11 | T0mW | k |
| 18:04.41 | T0mW | I had a budget of about $6000 to start this project, that included the PCB |
| 18:05.21 | joe_bleau | At the time (~6 years ago), I didn't have the confidence to run open source toolchain. Spent a ton on money on tools, ended up disappointed with support setup. |
| 18:05.30 | T0mW | the people at Ultimate Solutions had a Windows debugger for the BDI2000, but they wanted $4000 for it |
| 18:05.31 | joe_bleau | Tight budget. |
| 18:05.52 | T0mW | same here, tight budget, but, I am used to gdb |
| 18:06.05 | T0mW | joe_bleau: sure beats an LED! |
| 18:06.52 | joe_bleau | Monitor based debuggers seems so touchy to me, especially if the hardware is uncertain. |
| 18:06.52 | T0mW | joe_bleau: one of the project goals was that I would get a BDI2000 for own |
| 18:07.10 | T0mW | joe_bleau: now I have to deliver to the customer, heh |
| 18:07.16 | joe_bleau | I guess that checklist item got marked off early. |
| 18:07.23 | T0mW | yeah |
| 18:07.25 | T0mW | :-) |
| 18:07.49 | joe_bleau | I was messing around with the ARM debug core watchpoint registers last night on the JB. Very impressive. |
| 18:08.09 | T0mW | joe_bleau: I turned it loose on a Logic Product Development LH7A400 board that I had, I got so much done that first day! Linux is now running on that board. |
| 18:08.21 | joe_bleau | Being able to break whenever 0xdeadbeef is read from memory...show me a monitor debugger that can do that! |
| 18:08.25 | T` | moin guys |
| 18:08.39 | T0mW | T`: hello |
| 18:08.50 | T0mW | joe_bleau: that is a rom based debug? |
| 18:08.52 | joe_bleau | Wow. Impressive. Isn't the BDI2k one of the few that can handle the virtual memory |
| 18:09.05 | joe_bleau | Sorry, is what a rom based debug? |
| 18:09.06 | T0mW | joe_bleau: dunno |
| 18:09.20 | T0mW | joe_bleau: oh, a core peice of software |
| 18:09.35 | T0mW | embedded within the processor core |
| 18:09.59 | joe_bleau | Yeah, it's part of the arm7tdmi debug core, the embeddedICE stuff. The LPC series should have it too. |
| 18:10.21 | joe_bleau | I didn't know how to access the registers (they're only available over the JTAG scan chain) from OCD. |
| 18:10.27 | T0mW | joe_bleau: can you set pins / registers from it? |
| 18:10.40 | joe_bleau | But now I do. And it's nice. Hardware breakpoints. Very good stuff. |
| 18:11.14 | T0mW | cool, that is good to know. I had severe doubts about a debug monitor, that is why I went with jtag based part |
| 18:11.59 | joe_bleau | I'll bet that BDI2000 of yours even has wrappers around those watchpoint registers, so that you don't have to set it up bit by bit, as I do. |
| 18:12.03 | T0mW | joe_bleau: the other thing was that the Philips part offered a lot more flash + ram than the atmel parts did. IIRC, most of thier solutions (atmel) required external RAM? |
| 18:12.14 | joe_bleau | Probably something like 'break on read from 0x1000 to 0x2000', right? |
| 18:12.47 | joe_bleau | Gotcha. Philips seems generous with flash. Not so much with SRAM these days (witness 2106 vs 213x). |
| 18:12.49 | T0mW | joe_bleau: heh, haven't gotten there yet. Still testing the electronics to ensure that what I designed is working as I thought it would. |
| 18:13.04 | joe_bleau | I love board bringup. So exciting when bare boards arrive. |
| 18:13.36 | T0mW | joe_bleau: yeah, the 2138 part is great due to the large flash. That is why I had to use the 2106 part, the 2106 has enough ram to store my data |
| 18:14.28 | joe_bleau | I've got one of those Olimex demo boards for the 2192, I think. I really need to get it running. It has CAN, and I'm interested in playing with that one of these days. |
| 18:14.37 | T0mW | joe_bleau: I like the design + programming, building and bringing the board up is a part of the job I could do without. But, with bringing the board up, I can make design changes as needed though |
| 18:15.09 | T0mW | joe_bleau: lots of microscopic surgery on this board! |
| 18:15.25 | joe_bleau | Ouch. I've been pretty lucky. |
| 18:15.30 | T0mW | part of the learning curve for a new processor. This is the first ARM design I'm doing |
| 18:16.01 | joe_bleau | Me too. Hate to admit it, but I should have used an H8/Tiny. Already had experience, but I wanted to learn some ARM. |
| 18:16.02 | T0mW | I understood the core, but the peripherials is the area that I've run into problems with. |
| 18:16.15 | T0mW | I like the raw speed of the ARM |
| 18:16.17 | joe_bleau | So, I pushed the design with a new chip. Probably cost us a little time, but it was non-critical. |
| 18:16.33 | T0mW | joe_bleau: what did you use? the 2106? |
| 18:17.03 | joe_bleau | Yep. I could have gone with the '04 or '05, my code is that tiny. Only built 50, and the 2106 had less leadtime. |
| 18:17.15 | joe_bleau | It's potted in, so code protection wasn't an issue. |
| 18:17.16 | T0mW | I'm looking at using the LPC2xxx processor in a number of successive desings |
| 18:17.57 | T0mW | joe, yeah, code protection is an issue here, but the 2138 is the one with the really critical code to be protected |
| 18:18.01 | joe_bleau | Some days I just thing, "wow, a 32 bit micro *controller*. With debug. And free tools. And it's cheap. Life is good." |
| 18:18.07 | T0mW | heh |
| 18:18.12 | T0mW | yes! |
| 18:18.32 | joe_bleau | we're freaking spoiled. I'm whining about $2.5k for a awesome sounding debugger. |
| 18:18.35 | T0mW | this processor has more RAM + Storage on it than my first computer (CP/M-80) |
| 18:18.47 | joe_bleau | And just a few years ago, I'd spend more than that on a compiler+assembler+linker! |
| 18:18.52 | T0mW | yeha |
| 18:18.55 | T0mW | yeha |
| 18:18.57 | T0mW | drat |
| 18:18.58 | joe_bleau | Sorry to rant. |
| 18:18.59 | T0mW | yes |
| 18:19.03 | T0mW | lol |
| 18:19.19 | T0mW | joe_bleau: a few years ago you spent that for an eval board... |
| 18:19.29 | joe_bleau | Still can, unfortunately! |
| 18:19.50 | joe_bleau | That's what I like about crap little toys like the Juicebox, webpal, some of the handhelp video games, etc. |
| 18:19.56 | T0mW | freaking $3500 for a Cyprus Semi 7312 eval board, gak! |
| 18:20.28 | joe_bleau | Any more, they've got decent chips, and with low pin count debug ports, you can hack 'em. |
| 18:20.29 | T0mW | joe_bleau: yeah, the surplus stuff is a great place to learn. Especially about interfacing the hardware to the ARM |
| 18:20.38 | joe_bleau | Volume makes 'em cheap and available. |
| 18:21.15 | joe_bleau | Although I do feel a little silly when someone at works asks why I buying from the toy aisle at Walmart. |
| 18:21.31 | T0mW | joe_bleau: I think that the volume on this design is under 1000/yr. Still is a cheap processor considering what there has been out there in the past |
| 18:21.51 | joe_bleau | I like the look of some of those Crystal/Cirrus SoCs. |
| 18:22.12 | joe_bleau | I've never worked on anything that went past a few k / year. |
| 18:22.37 | joe_bleau | And those AMD MIPS chips (the old Alchemy parts) are interesting. |
| 18:22.48 | T0mW | joe_bleau: yeah, but. Cirrus stuff seems to be multimedia oriented. I don't design Walkman type products. |
| 18:23.12 | joe_bleau | I'm industrial control. Want the ethernet and LCD. Really would like to have CAN as well. |
| 18:23.24 | T0mW | joe_bleau: I'm afraid to go into MIPS parts, dunno if they will be around in a few years (evolution)( |
| 18:23.45 | T0mW | joe_bleau: basically that is what I do: Security + Fire Panel |
| 18:23.49 | joe_bleau | On-chip sram is bonus. On-chip flash would be nice, too. (Easier to production test if you can run without external bus.) |
| 18:24.17 | T0mW | joe_bleau: yeah, if the clock is running... Then the part is alive |
| 18:24.18 | T0mW | heh |
| 18:24.32 | joe_bleau | SGI is leaving them, so embedded is about all that they have left. But yeah, I agree that the ARM is the 8051 of the future. |
| 18:25.04 | T0mW | I hope to put some production debug features in the code, so that the production people can test the board. Stuff like 'catch fire and burn' the I/O pins |
| 18:25.18 | joe_bleau | Lol. |
| 18:25.52 | T0mW | joe_bleau: 8051 is a 4 letter word! I've done so much 8bit code on that thing that I'm tired of swapping DPTR to do operations! |
| 18:26.26 | joe_bleau | I like to at least CRC the application image as a production test, blink the lights, check for pins shorted, that sort of thing. But I've never doing anything very formal. |
| 18:27.09 | joe_bleau | Strangely enough, I've never done an 8051 design! (Z180, HC11, 68332, H8, LPC2xxx, PIC, etc.) |
| 18:27.11 | T0mW | joe_bleau: interesting thing, with the MMC memory + the fact that you can execute code in RAM, all I have to do is to test out the MMC interface, then load the test routines from an MMC card. |
| 18:27.23 | T0mW | joe_bleau: they don't have to reside in the ROM code then |
| 18:27.25 | joe_bleau | Nice. I like it. |
| 18:27.44 | joe_bleau | Send the production house a stack of cards and docs. They do the rest. |
| 18:27.55 | T0mW | 80C188, 8042, 8051, Z80, 6502 here |
| 18:27.58 | joe_bleau | I'm going to try and hack some MMC code for the juicebox this weekend. |
| 18:28.12 | joe_bleau | Oh yeah, '188/'186 and 6502. That's going back a ways! |
| 18:28.54 | T0mW | joe_bleau: heh, I can put online help into the thing via MMC. MMC storage opens up a lot of possibilities, I'd like to allow Flash software updates via the MMC. |
| 18:28.54 | joe_bleau | I really liked the 6502. Back in the day, I thought it was pretty easy to use, for someone as inexperienced as I was. |
| 18:29.09 | T0mW | that was RISC'y |
| 18:29.32 | joe_bleau | We do firmware updates through an IR port. End-users beam it over from a Palm. Handy, since our electronics are sealed in a plastic box. |
| 18:29.32 | T0mW | I like the the BIT intruction to hide branches |
| 18:29.39 | T0mW | s/like/liked/ |
| 18:29.47 | T0mW | joe_bleau: cool |
| 18:30.34 | T0mW | joe_bleau: no IR on this, I did stick a 20pin FPC connector on the board and routed some SPI I2C GPIO signals to it, just in case... |
| 18:31.29 | joe_bleau | I like to have a connector with main power, ground, uart in/out, debug port, and maybe some GPIO. That way production test or during repair/rework you can |
| 18:31.35 | T0mW | joe_bleau: plus a lot of 24mil vias for the unused pins of the processors. This way there is OOPS factor built in |
| 18:31.46 | joe_bleau | slap a single connector on the board and be up and running. |
| 18:31.52 | T0mW | yeah |
| 18:32.00 | T0mW | or, add new hardware / subsystems |
| 18:32.09 | T0mW | like a touch LCD |
| 18:32.11 | joe_bleau | Vias...good. I use a lot of wirewrap wire, and I rarely wrap it around a square post! |
| 18:32.31 | joe_bleau | (Say that out loud three times... ;-) ) |
| 18:32.45 | T0mW | I was wondering if the LPC2xxx is fast enough to service an 1/4 VGA LCD? Like do it via the SPI? |
| 18:33.16 | joe_bleau | Sheesh, probably not. If it had a way to DMA the sucker, but I think you'll spend way too much time servicing the shift register. |
| 18:33.27 | joe_bleau | (Assuming no external controller). |
| 18:33.34 | T0mW | joe_bleau: 30ga is good, I've got a well used spool here. Even figured out how to tack it onto those tiny pins of the LPC parts |
| 18:33.35 | joe_bleau | How much memory for a QVGA. |
| 18:34.00 | T0mW | joe_bleau: yeah, I would put the SPI interrupt as highest priority |
| 18:34.28 | T0mW | IIRC, clockrate is about, what, 400us? |
| 18:34.37 | T0mW | s/400us/400ns/ |
| 18:35.25 | T0mW | of course the processor would do little else but run the LCD and accept serial data from it's uart |
| 18:35.58 | T0mW | I have to do the math, I do have some 1/4 VGA monochrome displays here to play with |
| 18:36.39 | joe_bleau | Mono, you might be ok. Seems like that's 76800 pixels, or 9600 bytes. |
| 18:36.47 | T0mW | joe_bleau: surplus QVGA with touch screen varies, usually around $60..$70 |
| 18:37.05 | T0mW | earthlcd.com has surplus stuff |
| 18:37.08 | joe_bleau | Hey, gotta go have my ears lowered in a minute. Gonna be around this afternoon? |
| 18:37.22 | T0mW | joe_bleau: yeah, I've got more surgery to do... |
| 18:37.22 | joe_bleau | earthlcd: check. Been there, considered the MARM, glad I passed. |
| 18:37.33 | joe_bleau | Cool. Mind if I bug you later on some MMC stuff? |
| 18:37.55 | T0mW | joe_bleau: maybe we both can learn MMC, haven't gotten to that section yet. |
| 18:38.12 | T0mW | probably later tomorrow I'll be doing the MMC code |
| 18:38.37 | joe_bleau | Thanks for your time. I really enjoyed talking to another embedded hacked. |
| 18:38.47 | T0mW | only one more page of schematic to check out then it is off for a short production run |
| 18:38.49 | joe_bleau | Dont' get much of that talk at work (only programmer). |
| 18:38.59 | T0mW | heh, no co-workers here, only me |
| 18:39.11 | T0mW | IRC gives me "co-workers" |
| 18:39.20 | joe_bleau | yep. later! |
| 18:45.13 | T0mW | file: so much for your magic tricks |
| 19:07.38 | file[laptop] | T0mW: how art thou? |
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| 19:10.12 | T0mW | file[laptop]: busy, checking out a PCB design, good healthy work for a weekend: dreaming electronics |
| 19:12.27 | file[laptop] | ah |
| 19:13.41 | T0mW | power blipped, thankfully I have UPS |
| 19:14.35 | file[laptop] | MUAHAHAHA |
| 19:29.55 | sorphin | heh |
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| 21:23.31 | TheMonoTone | hi, I've been searching around the net for a fairly powerful microcontroller or sbc with a good number of general i/o ports, i2c and uart, and low power consumptions |
| 21:23.44 | TheMonoTone | I think the arm7 chip seems to be a good match |
| 21:24.21 | TheMonoTone | however, I can't find a hobby type kit, where the chip is mounted on a board with the io pins available to wire up to |
| 21:24.37 | TheMonoTone | any suggestions would be greatly appreciated |
| 21:31.20 | TheMonoTone | I think I may have finally found what I was looking for, so disregard that |
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| 23:17.30 | Genesis | bonne nuit |
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| 23:29.22 | TheMonoTone | exit |
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