| 00:03.33 | MonMotha | jbevren: actually, I think I do |
| 00:03.37 | MonMotha | I know I have a 133 and a 120 |
| 00:03.45 | MonMotha | and a 75 |
| 00:04.18 | MonMotha | hum, actually, I may not have a bare 133 |
| 00:05.31 | jbevren | hehe |
| 00:50.29 | jbevren | RIAA Suit Rejected With Prejudice |
| 00:50.29 | jbevren | ! |
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| 06:50.36 | andersee | TimRiker: hmm, I suppose I must still have that |
| 06:50.44 | andersee | TimRiker: I'd forgotten |
| 06:52.47 | sorphin | ah |
| 06:52.55 | sorphin | gotcha |
| 06:53.17 | sorphin | hope you're documenting all this... albeit, who knows when/if i'll be in a lodgenet hotel anymore, heh |
| 06:53.36 | sorphin | grr |
| 06:54.07 | andersee | TimRiker: I'm gonna be doing a fair bit of travelling during October |
| 06:55.01 | TimRiker | well, on you're way to the airport you can hop a block off bangeter and drop it off then. ;-) |
| 06:55.33 | TimRiker | come see my old computers in the process. |
| 06:57.04 | andersee | TimRiker: thats quite a machine |
| 06:57.17 | TimRiker | and feel free to drop off any other hardware you might want to get rid of. ;-) |
| 06:57.37 | andersee | TimRiker: you'll need to swing by too and check out my spify telescope |
| 06:57.40 | TimRiker | heh. my new hobby. working on old useless antique computers. that one has 64k! |
| 06:57.49 | andersee | TimRiker: Mars opposition is coming up... |
| 06:58.11 | TimRiker | oh yeah! the scope. Henry was excited to see that sometime. |
| 06:59.04 | andersee | late October will be his best chance to see mars for quite a few years |
| 06:59.55 | TimRiker | how much of the field of view does it occupy? |
| 07:02.15 | andersee | TimRiker: on a really clear night (such as last night or tonight) I can go to pretty high magnification and get it to fill a large % of the fov |
| 07:02.43 | TimRiker | sweet. got that cgi web script hooked up yet? ;-) |
| 07:02.58 | andersee | TimRiker: I can easily get it to exceed the fov as an out of focus fuzzy blob |
| 07:03.12 | TimRiker | ooh. fuzzy blobs. |
| 07:03.19 | andersee | TimRiker: still havn't ordered a camera... |
| 07:03.45 | TimRiker | ah. I'm only poking fun anyway. |
| 07:04.23 | TimRiker | I'm finally unpacking and hooking up more systems here. got my pegasos online again. |
| 07:04.36 | andersee | TimRiker: fun fun |
| 07:05.12 | TimRiker | getting ready for a new bzflag release. I still have not un-broke the latest debian NMU. It works fine except for networking. like that's useful. |
| 07:05.13 | andersee | TimRiker: how goes the job? Any non worthless coworkers, or more of the same? |
| 07:06.08 | TimRiker | tensions are fairly high now, big push to get stuff released, and many folks don't think it's ready yet. It's cool, just not quite ready for production. |
| 07:06.40 | andersee | TimRiker: big push aiming for i.e. this weekend? |
| 07:06.51 | *** part/#elinux sorphin (n=sorphin@mewp.captainrock.com) |
| 07:06.55 | TimRiker | there are a few folks that are useful. but I'd still strip it down to a small team and re-write it all if I had my choice. |
| 07:07.22 | TimRiker | heh. no, I jumped to work stuff... |
| 07:08.12 | Lethal | andersee, going to CELF stuff or SOSP in October? |
| 07:08.30 | TimRiker | bzflag does not have tension. ;-) might get a 2.0.4 out this weekend. lots of eye candy in there. jump effects, spawn effects, more explode effects, covered treads on the tanks, more shot effects. funs stuff. |
| 07:08.45 | TimRiker | ~sosp? |
| 07:08.54 | Lethal | TimRiker, http://www.sosp-20.com |
| 07:10.07 | andersee | Lethal: going to my brother's weding in Jamaica, briefly home, then off for a week of business travel to washinton dc |
| 07:10.14 | Lethal | andersee, ah |
| 07:10.52 | andersee | the wedding should be lots of fun. The business probably much less so. |
| 07:11.03 | Lethal | andersee, that's pretty typical ;) |
| 07:11.32 | TimRiker | well, with business in dc, I expect this is less so. |
| 07:12.06 | andersee | anybody ever written a cross depmod that generates the various modules.* files? |
| 07:12.50 | TimRiker | I hacked one a long time ago. things have changed since. |
| 07:14.01 | kergoth | iirc you can build modutils that way, and it works. iirc, module-init-tools has a bug wrt endianness, but otherwise works when built for cross operation. |
| 07:14.16 | kergoth | if you look at oe, we have the scripts in place to build the cross one and use it at image creation time |
| 07:14.54 | andersee | kergoth: i.e. ./configure --build=foo --target=bar --host=baz |
| 07:14.55 | andersee | ? |
| 07:15.06 | TimRiker | does depmod.pl still exist? |
| 07:15.15 | andersee | TimRiker: sure, and works |
| 07:15.26 | andersee | TimRiker: doesn't build the modules.* files though |
| 07:15.34 | TimRiker | ah. |
| 07:15.37 | andersee | TimRiker: which sadly I seem to need |
| 07:15.56 | andersee | s/I/somebody paying my bills/ |
| 07:16.05 | kergoth | andersee: yeah, iirc its that simple. check the -cross .bb |
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| 07:16.13 | andersee | kergoth: k, thx |
| 07:16.23 | T0mW | toaster oven worked good! |
| 07:16.27 | andersee | kergoth: is there a web interface? |
| 07:16.38 | kergoth | try monotone.vanille.de (iirc) |
| 07:17.18 | andersee | kergoth: last I looked oe was hiding in some obscure scm and I couldn't get it to pull and tossed in the towel (after about 2 minutes) |
| 07:17.51 | kergoth | hehe. monotone isnt all that obscure |
| 07:18.10 | kergoth | but personally, i'm advocating a switch to an svn upstream and the developers using svk for peer to peer and offline work |
| 07:18.19 | TimRiker | ~monotone |
| 07:18.35 | TimRiker | if ibot doesn't know it, it must be obscure. |
| 07:18.43 | kergoth | hehe |
| 07:19.00 | kergoth | its one of the ones that the kernel folks were keeping an eye on. iirc they didnt go wtih it due to performance issues |
| 07:19.04 | kergoth | and its still too damn slow |
| 07:19.08 | andersee | ibot: monotone is an obscure SCM |
| 07:19.09 | ibot | okay, andersee |
| 07:19.15 | TimRiker | =) |
| 07:19.20 | Lethal | yeah, it's damn slow. minor issue. ;) |
| 07:19.38 | kergoth | ibot: no, monotone is a free distributed version control system with performance issues. See http://venge.net/monotone/ for details. |
| 07:19.40 | ibot | okay, kergoth |
| 07:19.52 | Lethal | kergoth, that describes a lot of SCMs.. |
| 07:19.56 | kergoth | hehe |
| 07:19.59 | kergoth | true that |
| 07:20.21 | andersee | ~monotone |
| 07:20.24 | ibot | monotone is, like, a free distributed version control system with performance issues. See http://venge.net/monotone/ for details. |
| 07:20.32 | Lethal | git does a really nice job from a performance point of view, though the branching and merging is still relatively clunky. |
| 07:20.54 | andersee | Lethal: I'm sorting waiting for git to ripen up a bit |
| 07:21.09 | TimRiker | so is nearly everyone else |
| 07:21.24 | Lethal | andersee, I'm using it for most of my kernel trees at work at the moment, it's doing pretty well these days overall, as long as you avoid cogito. |
| 07:21.33 | kergoth | i'm really taking a liking to svk. it being written in perl is unfortunate, but its incredibly capable. the benefits of using an svn backend, along with star merges, cherry picking, not to mention the usual p2p / mirroring of upstream stuff |
| 07:22.12 | TimRiker | so rewrite it in c. ;-) they keep saying the perl version is a prototype. |
| 07:22.23 | andersee | kergoth: what TimRiker said |
| 07:22.30 | Lethal | git's cherry picking is really broken. but it's something Linus never cared about, which is a nuisance. I prefer to keep long-living development branches and incrementally sync up the stuff I care about, as opposed to having a merge branch and throwing the whole thing out. |
| 07:22.33 | andersee | kergoth: you're looking for a new project, right? |
| 07:22.34 | andersee | :-) |
| 07:22.37 | kergoth | haw |
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| 07:22.56 | TimRiker | haw? |
| 07:22.58 | Lethal | generating throw away branches is a waste of time, particularly when you have some 70 other branches to work with. |
| 07:23.33 | Lethal | which hasn't been made any easier by splitting the bkcvs history in to another tree.. |
| 07:24.00 | kergoth | i have barely enough motivation for what little coding i'm doing again nowadays, much less new projects :P |
| 07:25.07 | Lethal | git merges are still way better than BK merges though, without half the evil. you just need to clean up hash mismatches and other lame things in the object cache by hand every now and then. |
| 07:26.30 | Lethal | but that can be worked around. I had to rewrite the same sort of dumbass behaviour in arch due to silliness in the inode cache. |
| 07:27.37 | andersee | I am not very fond of svn's 'do as little as possible' approach to conflict resolution |
| 07:27.51 | andersee | better than CVS |
| 07:27.57 | Lethal | that's not much of an accomplishment |
| 07:28.06 | andersee | but then so is brain surgery |
| 07:28.12 | andersee | heh |
| 07:28.35 | Lethal | perforce had some pretty decent merging, git and arch as well. git is getting much better at it now though. |
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| 07:29.29 | Lethal | sticking with any sort of RCS or SCCS brain-damage is just asking for trouble. ;) |
| 07:29.42 | kergoth | wonder how well darcs handles it |
| 07:29.59 | kergoth | i've been idling in #revctrl hoping to pick something up via osmosis, but it hasnt worked so far, its still almost entirely over my head :) |
| 07:30.24 | Lethal | it's supposed to be relatively good at merging, but I haven't heard anyone using it for serious work. |
| 07:30.47 | Lethal | mercurial is sort of in the same camp, I guess. |
| 07:33.28 | andersee | given the fact that it is high enough profile to attract a lot of effort and glory seekers |
| 07:33.32 | Lethal | Linus has definitely spent too much time with BK though, git has a lot of the same idiotic concepts. instead of addressing the duplicated metadata issue and superfluous merge points, git implements a "rebase" command to arbitrarily throw out any existing metadata and fast-forward to another HEAD revision so that superfluous merge points are discarded. |
| 07:34.54 | Lethal | the current set of git tools are quite usable if you stick with just the core git. things like cogito really get in the way more than they help. |
| 07:35.26 | Lethal | though it's really designed for scripting, so you will invariably have to write a dozen or so scripts that wrap in to the various core git commands to accomplish what you want. |
| 07:36.58 | Lethal | the constant manual manipulation of the object cache might possibly still need to be a bit more user friendly ;) |
| 07:37.14 | kergoth | ehh, throwing out metadata? eep |
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| 07:48.10 | Lethal | kergoth, yeah, Linus seems to be pretty fond of the concept ;) |
| 07:49.24 | Lethal | but that's not surprising when someone is all for throw-away merge branches and not a huge fan of cherry-picking. |
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| 08:57.39 | cdm | git scares me |
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| 13:10.43 | prpplague | GPSFan: greetings |
| 13:11.01 | GPSFan | prpplague: morning, how's it? |
| 13:11.11 | prpplague | GPSFan: ssdd |
| 13:11.28 | GPSFan | ;>) |
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| 13:12.29 | sorphin | ~lackeyslap sjhill |
| 13:12.31 | ibot | ACTION slaps sjhill around like the lackey they are. |
| 13:12.40 | sorphin | ~insult sjhill |
| 13:12.48 | sorphin | ack |
| 13:12.53 | sorphin | that's a bit harsh ibot |
| 13:13.10 | sorphin | ibot: no botsnack for you |
| 13:13.10 | ibot | sorphin: aw, gee |
| 13:13.13 | sjhill | pre-emptive strike this morning, eh? |
| 13:13.26 | sorphin | sjhill: i actually joined like < 10 seconds before you |
| 13:13.39 | sjhill | heh |
| 13:13.41 | sorphin | sjhill: ibot was a bit harsh there |
| 13:14.28 | sjhill | i thought it was funny |
| 13:14.45 | prpplague | sjhill: morning |
| 13:14.45 | GPSFan | sorphin: mornin.. |
| 13:14.45 | sorphin | heh |
| 13:14.51 | sorphin | GPSFan: morning ken |
| 13:14.56 | sjhill | hey prpplague |
| 13:15.07 | sorphin | prpplague: King Plague |
| 13:15.13 | sorphin | Ruler of Barbados |
| 13:15.35 | sorphin | Vive Le Roi |
| 13:15.36 | sorphin | heh |
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| 13:37.54 | prpplague | sjhill: hehe you watch the oreilly vs. donahue interview? |
| 13:38.16 | sjhill | *gasp* |
| 13:38.20 | sjhill | when was THAT on? |
| 13:39.10 | prpplague | sjhill: same night as the jetblue airplane thing, iirc they have video of it on the foxnews.com page |
| 13:39.29 | sjhill | was it good? |
| 13:39.44 | prpplague | sjhill: it was great |
| 13:40.00 | prpplague | sjhill: yea its still up on foxnews.com |
| 13:40.05 | prpplague | sjhill: video and text |
| 13:43.29 | prpplague | sjhill: shows exactly what an idiot donahue is |
| 13:47.50 | sjhill | democrats/independents are all about emotion |
| 13:47.51 | sjhill | no logic |
| 13:48.00 | prpplague | sjhill: exactly |
| 13:49.01 | sjhill | it hurts that 2000 of our citizens have died |
| 13:49.16 | sjhill | it hurts additionaly that Sadam murdered 100's of thousands |
| 13:49.43 | sjhill | tell those people who were crying at the polls in Iraq who got to vote that they don't appreciate the sacrifice we've made |
| 13:50.10 | sjhill | that's what the liberal media won't talk about |
| 13:50.36 | prpplague | sjhill: yep, not like we have a draft |
| 13:50.58 | sorphin | uh |
| 13:51.21 | sorphin | yeah |
| 13:51.26 | prpplague | sjhill: hehe, we really shouldn't be discussing this here though, hehe kinda OT |
| 13:51.36 | sjhill | true |
| 13:51.38 | sjhill | sorry everyone |
| 13:51.45 | sorphin | politics, blech |
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| 13:55.29 | Genesis | bonjour |
| 13:57.47 | sjhill | howdy |
| 13:58.21 | prpplague | sjhill: hows the VHDL coming along? |
| 13:58.42 | sjhill | it's not |
| 13:58.53 | sjhill | i'm spending all my time on uClibc TLS/NPTL |
| 13:59.01 | prpplague | ahh |
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| 13:59.27 | prpplague | sjhill: so many things to learn so little time |
| 13:59.27 | sjhill | i did post driver patches for the Xilinx parallel drive though |
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| 14:12.36 | CosmicPenguin | morninhg |
| 14:13.36 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: morning |
| 14:17.41 | CosmicPenguin | ok - anybody here know more then diddly squat about SMB? |
| 14:21.22 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i used too, hehe |
| 14:21.28 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: don't deal with it much anymore |
| 14:21.35 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you can try and ask |
| 14:25.45 | prpplague | ahh nothing like the taste of taking a 1/2 cup off coffee that was still in the cup from yesterday and filling the rest up with fresh from the pot |
| 14:26.19 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: ok, I've got this new super duper server, and we're building our processor simulator on it |
| 14:26.41 | CosmicPenguin | the processor simulator can run on both doze and linux, so the Windows developer wants me to set up his code share for him |
| 14:26.55 | CosmicPenguin | so he can use the same code base but compile it in both locations |
| 14:27.22 | CosmicPenguin | and smbmnt is being very picky as to where the mount goes - whats the best way to set up a personal SMB share without a lot of pain and or suffering |
| 14:28.40 | CosmicPenguin | Whats really pissing me off is that I know its possible, because LinNeighborhood can do it |
| 14:29.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: shouldn't be any reason you can't put the mount anywhere you want |
| 14:30.14 | CosmicPenguin | I keep getting a smmnt failed: 1 |
| 14:31.08 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: let me make sure i understand that the share is on a linux server right? |
| 14:32.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'd start with some simple debugging, use: smbclient -L hostname , to make sure the share is showning up |
| 14:33.01 | CosmicPenguin | yeah |
| 14:33.05 | CosmicPenguin | root can mount it just fine |
| 14:33.28 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: how did you add the mount to the samba config? |
| 14:37.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'd try using standard mount command to test with as it tends to be alot more verbose then smbmnt |
| 14:38.14 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: mount -t smbfs -o username=bob,password=billy //winblows1/docshares /mnt/smb |
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| 14:49.50 | ade|desk | hey folks |
| 14:50.16 | ade|desk | whats the best way to truncate pwd to the last directory |
| 14:50.50 | prpplague | ade|desk: there are a couple of shell commands for that |
| 14:52.13 | jbevren | dirname ${directory} |basename |
| 14:52.33 | prpplague | hehe, sorry, phone |
| 14:52.59 | prpplague | ade|desk: those will allow you to get a wide variaty of info from a path |
| 15:12.40 | prpplague | any uclinux folks awake? |
| 15:21.35 | chouimat | morning |
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| 15:33.30 | prpplague | ugh cross complier problems |
| 15:33.45 | prpplague | dtor/ctor problems |
| 15:40.35 | prpplague | where's pb_ when you need him |
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| 16:07.25 | ade|desk | cheers jbevren / prpplague |
| 16:07.47 | jbevren | abe |
| 16:08.38 | ade|desk | ? |
| 16:08.42 | jbevren | cheers. :) |
| 16:08.55 | ade|desk | ah :) |
| 16:11.46 | prpplague | sure wish there was some help on irc for uclinux stuff |
| 16:29.09 | ade|desk | night folks |
| 16:29.28 | Lethal | prpplague, there is, but no one goes there. |
| 16:29.58 | prpplague | Lethal: ahh |
| 16:30.54 | Lethal | prpplague, uclinux-dev is probably your safest bet. the .au folk should be waking up soon ;) |
| 16:31.20 | prpplague | hmm no channel on freenode called uclinux-dev |
| 16:31.51 | Lethal | prpplague, the mailing list ;) |
| 16:32.05 | prpplague | oh, i never get help from that |
| 16:32.18 | Lethal | prpplague, or you can try irc.uclinux.org, but you'll probably get less help there. |
| 16:32.52 | Lethal | oh, it looks like they took it down |
| 16:32.57 | Lethal | probably on account of it not being useful |
| 16:33.01 | prpplague | hehe |
| 16:33.20 | prpplague | can't seem to get some code to compile with the uclinux dist |
| 16:40.12 | CosmicPenguin | TimRiker: ping |
| 16:40.41 | CosmicPenguin | Well, I guess this is a question for anybody |
| 16:40.52 | CosmicPenguin | if we submitted code to the kenel that went like so |
| 16:41.16 | CosmicPenguin | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:41.21 | CosmicPenguin | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:41.29 | CosmicPenguin | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:41.31 | CosmicPenguin | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:41.37 | CosmicPenguin | Would that be rejected by the code maintainers? |
| 16:41.58 | Lethal | you mean inline the entire text of the GPL, or what? |
| 16:42.02 | CosmicPenguin | Yeah |
| 16:42.23 | CosmicPenguin | So basically, the whole license would be there, but it would be bound by tags |
| 16:42.25 | Lethal | what would be the point? there's already a copy in the top-level directory, can't you just reference that like everyone else? |
| 16:42.31 | CosmicPenguin | no |
| 16:43.23 | CosmicPenguin | But I'm not here to debate proper licensing of files - I'm here to ask if the tags in the comment are grounds for not accepting code |
| 16:43.58 | Lethal | if they are new files that you are adding, I guess it doesn't really matter what you put there. but be prepared to get a lot of "why?" questions. |
| 16:46.07 | CosmicPenguin | Thats what i'm worried about |
| 16:47.03 | Lethal | it's not really a reason for rejection in and of itself though, people have done other silly licensing things, but I guess it depends on how pissy your subsystem maintainer is. |
| 16:47.22 | CosmicPenguin | I also don't know if they are legal or not w.r.t the GPL itself |
| 16:47.30 | Lethal | but it's up to akpm |
| 16:48.45 | Lethal | CosmicPenguin, your legal people can figure that one out, or should be able to at least ;) |
| 16:49.38 | TimRiker | CosmicPenguin: if it's useful, it might get added. it's likely to be flame bait either way. |
| 16:50.20 | CosmicPenguin | TimRiker: yeah, I figured as much - everything will be there, it will just be bounded by extra noise |
| 16:51.04 | Lethal | CosmicPenguin, you have a good chance of getting it in to -mm at least, beyond that you will have to contend with whatever subsystem maintainer you are working under. |
| 16:52.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you get your smb issue resolved? |
| 16:53.16 | CosmicPenguin | nope |
| 16:53.25 | CosmicPenguin | everybody says, "it just works" |
| 16:53.33 | CosmicPenguin | I think nobody is willing to speak up when its broken |
| 16:53.38 | CosmicPenguin | the samba people have powers - scary powers |
| 16:53.44 | CosmicPenguin | its like the mob |
| 16:53.50 | CosmicPenguin | you talka bad about samba, we breaka your face |
| 17:09.54 | CosmicPenguin | We need a kernel oracle |
| 17:10.03 | CosmicPenguin | you shout your question, and the question comes back |
| 17:10.07 | CosmicPenguin | s/question/answer/ |
| 17:10.54 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: with a price |
| 17:11.07 | fishhead | http://news.com.com/New+security+proposed+for+do-it-all+phones/2100-1037_3-5883341.html?tag=nefd.lede |
| 17:11.13 | fishhead | kiss linux on cell phones goodbye I bet |
| 17:12.48 | Lethal | CosmicPenguin, there's lxrbot |
| 17:17.07 | Lethal | fishhead, I think there were some plans for DRM on Nseries. half of the stuff listed for what the initiative will accomplish are already being done without it though. |
| 17:17.27 | fishhead | well I knew drm was coming |
| 17:17.39 | Lethal | it would be nice if the BT group fixed up the gaping security holes in their specs first.. |
| 17:17.57 | jbevren | yeah, |
| 17:18.12 | jbevren | but in the corporate dictatorship the USA has become, securing rights comes before securing systems |
| 17:18.49 | Lethal | SIMlock looks like a joke, any idiot can clone SIMs. and that's not likely to change, most of these companies aren't that smart. |
| 17:19.52 | jbevren | about as 'secure' as CSS |
| 17:20.31 | fishhead | <fishhead> do me a favor |
| 17:20.31 | fishhead | <fishhead> repast the url |
| 17:20.31 | fishhead | <fishhead> for the morons who have me on ignore |
| 17:20.40 | jbevren | <jbevren> no. |
| 17:21.55 | Soopaman | lol |
| 17:22.10 | Lethal | the DRM thing is no surprise though, especially since various mobile phone companies are joining forces with microsoft.. |
| 17:22.34 | *** join/#elinux zinosat (n=Davide@host214-87.pool8256.interbusiness.it) |
| 17:23.18 | jbevren | shrug |
| 17:23.23 | jbevren | I dont care |
| 17:23.30 | jbevren | we're all going to end up in a police state soon anyway |
| 17:23.50 | Lethal | jbevren, so move ;) |
| 17:24.00 | jbevren | it wont matter :P |
| 17:24.05 | jbevren | no matter where you go, |
| 17:24.10 | jbevren | USA is inciting terror. |
| 17:25.49 | fishhead | lehtal |
| 17:25.54 | fishhead | please paste the url |
| 17:25.59 | fishhead | bbl |
| 17:26.28 | jbevren | <jbevren> No. You called my colleagues a moron. |
| 17:26.42 | jbevren | <jbevren> if we're morons, we wont care. |
| 17:26.50 | jbevren | <jbevren> oh wait, we dont! |
| 17:26.54 | jbevren | ok I'll stop |
| 17:28.56 | jbevren | Lethal: FH asked us to post a URL he posted so the 'morons that have me on ignore' will see it |
| 17:28.58 | jbevren | :) |
| 17:29.02 | jbevren | enough said |
| 17:29.19 | Lethal | oh |
| 17:30.01 | CosmicPenguin | Because apparently we wouldn't get any news at all if fishhead wasn't here to filter it for us |
| 17:30.22 | CosmicPenguin | A tatic made famous by Fox News |
| 17:31.43 | jbevren | :) |
| 17:32.20 | CosmicPenguin | Anyone catch the Daily Show last night? It was good |
| 17:32.32 | CosmicPenguin | They showed a Fox reporter during the hurricane, and he got knocked off his feet by the wind |
| 17:32.45 | CosmicPenguin | And John Stewart says, "He might be fair, but he sure isn't balanced" |
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| 18:57.55 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: http://max.kellermann.name/projects/ferm/ |
| 18:58.04 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: its almost exactly what i was planning on coding. |
| 18:58.12 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: http://max.kellermann.name/download/ferm/examples/workstation.ferm |
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| 19:42.47 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: cool |
| 19:42.53 | kergoth | :) |
| 19:45.03 | CosmicPenguin | What is it built on? |
| 19:45.04 | CosmicPenguin | C? |
| 19:45.08 | kergoth | perl :(( |
| 19:45.12 | CosmicPenguin | out |
| 19:45.14 | CosmicPenguin | ouch |
| 19:45.17 | CosmicPenguin | bad for embedded |
| 19:45.38 | kergoth | yeah, sucks |
| 19:45.38 | kergoth | should rewrite it |
| 19:45.45 | kergoth | maybe i can talk the maintainer into cooperating in that regard |
| 19:47.43 | CosmicPenguin | make a bison parser? |
| 19:48.58 | kergoth | better yet, lemon instead of bison, and r2c instead of flex |
| 19:49.04 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 19:49.07 | kergoth | ~lemon |
| 19:49.09 | ibot | Modern parser generator. URL: http://www.hwaci.com/sw/lemon/index.html |
| 19:49.16 | CosmicPenguin | well, some parser generator anyway |
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| 19:59.09 | CosmicPenguin | There's the man, the myth, the legend |
| 20:00.21 | sjhill | who me? |
| 20:07.46 | CosmicPenguin | yeah you |
| 20:09.46 | T0mW | I used sparkfun's approach to building a PCB: mylar stencil + toaster oven, it worked great! |
| 20:11.56 | jbevren | mylar stencil eh? |
| 20:11.59 | jbevren | I have a toaster oven.. hrm :) |
| 20:12.19 | jbevren | do you have a link to that article? |
| 20:14.19 | sjhill | yeah, i would be interested in that |
| 20:18.58 | T0mW | jbevren: http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorial/SMD_Printing/SMD_Printing.htm |
| 20:19.45 | sjhill | T0mW: have you ever soldered a SMT fpga yourself? |
| 20:23.10 | T0mW | surprisingly, the stencil worked with 0.5mm parts! I had a tiny SOT-23-5 (LTC76918) with tiny tiny pads and the stencil put paste on it. I had my doubts, I was afraid that since the holes were so tiny that when I pulled the stencil up that the paste would stick in the holes of the stencil. It did not. |
| 20:23.28 | T0mW | sjhill: yeah, by hand. You use a lot of solder wick that way. |
| 20:23.37 | sjhill | that's encouraging |
| 20:23.58 | T0mW | sjhill: tack two corners, flood solder the pins, then wick out the excess. |
| 20:24.12 | sjhill | yow |
| 20:24.41 | T0mW | sjhill: you cannot get down there with an iron and do each pin seperately, it will drive you nuts. |
| 20:26.47 | T0mW | jbevren: I took a slightly different approach than what they were doing at sparkfun. Since the board was mostly fine pitch leads (0.5mm), I taped the surrounding boards so that that the pcb was "pinned" to the work surface. Aligned the stencil, then used painters tape (the blue stuff) to tack opposite sides of the stencil in place. |
| 20:27.42 | T0mW | jbevren: too much chance of the stencil shifting otherwise. And you don't have to move very much on a 7.0" X 5.5" board to mis-align the stencil at some point. |
| 20:28.34 | T`2 | T0mW, i'm all of a sudden encouraged to try this out |
| 20:28.45 | T`2 | T0mW, i read these things many times, but never really tried |
| 20:28.58 | T`2 | prolly can get my blackfin bga's o the board |
| 20:29.51 | T0mW | T`2: it is a cheap way to go: $60 for stencil, $90 for 500gr jar of paste, $60 for toaster oven, $20 for melomene shelving to make a pasting board. |
| 20:30.20 | T`2 | do you order a stencil mask ? |
| 20:30.21 | T0mW | T`2: I doubt it, BGA is a whole 'nother problem. Alignment is the issue there. |
| 20:31.02 | T`2 | actually i ordered these $10 stencils for bga.. the have the holes slightly concaved, so the bga package stays aligned |
| 20:31.10 | T`2 | its nifty, but i didn't try it.. |
| 20:31.15 | T0mW | T`2: yeah, I send out the RS-274-X Gerber plot of the paste mask and this company used a CO2 laser to cut the mylar. |
| 20:31.30 | T`2 | very cool |
| 20:31.34 | T`2 | how many did they give you for $60 ? |
| 20:31.58 | T0mW | T`2: oh, and you need a stainless steel sqeegee to apply the paste: $40. |
| 20:32.16 | T0mW | T`2: one stencil, but you can re-use it again. |
| 20:33.01 | T`2 | the generic $20 ovens aren't evenly heated... did you have any prob with that ? |
| 20:33.15 | T`2 | they aren't like those 100k convection ovens ;) |
| 20:33.46 | T`2 | but ofcoruse this might depend on board size |
| 20:35.58 | T0mW | T`2: I ran the oven up to 120C for 2 minutes (pre-soak), then went to 160C for one minute, then to 180C for one minute. After 30 seconds at 180C, the paste melted. |
| 20:36.26 | T`2 | this temp measurement.. is it from the oven or you had a therometer inside ? |
| 20:36.34 | T0mW | I didn't use a temperature probe, just used the stock analog dial of the oven to guess the temperatures... |
| 20:37.35 | T0mW | T`2: I wasn't about to shell out another $200 for a type-K probe + meter. |
| 20:38.09 | T`2 | heh no just wondering |
| 20:38.21 | T`2 | but this is cool.. atlesat i know these things work.. will check it out |
| 20:38.23 | T`2 | thanks much |
| 20:38.52 | T0mW | I'll be building another board tonight. Take what I learned on the first board and correct my mistakes. I had two of the ICs mis-aligned on their pads. :-( |
| 20:39.22 | T0mW | LQFP48 and a QSOP20 |
| 20:39.23 | T`2 | how do you make sure the IC's stay in place?is the paste sufficiently sticky ? |
| 20:39.51 | T0mW | T`2: heh, do not do sudden movements while touching the board. ;-) |
| 20:40.24 | T`2 | hmm.. its still hard if you want to do a one-shot solder for 20 boards, f.ex. |
| 20:40.26 | T0mW | T`2: the paste is slightly tacky, but you have to remember that the paste is only 0.003" thick! |
| 20:40.43 | T`2 | lqfp48.. ouch ;) gotta be extra careful with those |
| 20:41.01 | T0mW | T`2: a lot easier and more accurate than using a syringe to apply the paste! |
| 20:41.15 | T`2 | yea.. but i heard in industry they have these chip placement robots place them on the board and the chips stick to it somehow |
| 20:41.41 | T`2 | hehe yea i like the syringe stuff ... its easier than solder wick |
| 20:42.02 | T`2 | but i had problems of over applying when the balls would spread and short out pins |
| 20:42.02 | T0mW | I'd build boards using a pneumatic syringe, that is a PITA to paste the boards before putting the parts down. You always seem to end up with too much paste or too little paste on the pads |
| 20:42.34 | T`2 | oh.. well i just bought this solder which comes in a syringe |
| 20:42.40 | T0mW | surprisingly, there were few solder bridges on the TQFP48 packages. |
| 20:43.19 | T`2 | well, i got better at it but in the beginning if you apply too much paste and if you dont apply the heat uniformly you can screw up big time |
| 20:43.19 | T0mW | and they were easily wicked out as there wasn't a lot of excess solder (paste) that was in the region of the bridge |
| 20:43.35 | T`2 | a lot of times the paste used to get sucked to one place (too much heat) and it would be a mess |
| 20:43.54 | T`2 | ah |
| 20:44.04 | T`2 | heh.. lemme know when you do a *BGA :-) |
| 20:44.04 | T0mW | T`2: I'll never go back to soldering with a hot-air pencil again, the toaster oven is so much easier. |
| 20:44.12 | T0mW | T`2: never |
| 20:44.16 | T`2 | hehe |
| 20:44.27 | T`2 | i have to buy a toaster at local walmart |
| 20:44.41 | T`2 | dont feel like eating lead with my french toast |
| 20:44.46 | T0mW | Oster model 6293, costs $60 at Target |
| 20:45.03 | T0mW | four elements, convection fan, 1500W |
| 20:45.09 | T`2 | cool.. will go check it out this WE |
| 20:45.22 | T0mW | the convection fan spins slowly so you don't get a violent air flow inside the unit |
| 20:45.30 | T`2 | how long did you run once the solder melted at 180C ? |
| 20:45.38 | T`2 | did you shine a light on the board? how did you know it melted? |
| 20:45.40 | T0mW | 30 seconds more |
| 20:46.27 | T0mW | yes, I used a halogen spot-light (track light on flexible gooseneck) to shine a light inside the oven. I got the light fixture from Home Depot. |
| 20:46.45 | T`2 | aah ok |
| 20:46.54 | T0mW | The oven model I mentioned has a clear glass faceplate |
| 20:46.59 | jbevren | http://www.sparkfun.com/images/clseimg.php?img_location=/images/RF/BT-Dongle-2.jpg |
| 20:46.59 | jbevren | lol |
| 20:47.03 | jbevren | fake antenna |
| 20:47.04 | jbevren | lol |
| 20:47.06 | T`2 | also i'm hoping you can buy that solder paste with different melting points ? |
| 20:47.29 | T0mW | T`2: no, eutectic solder melts at 360F |
| 20:47.47 | T`2 | hmm.. so how to do two side boards ? |
| 20:47.52 | T0mW | T`2: other solder mixtures (60/40) melts at around 380..390F |
| 20:47.59 | T0mW | T`2: pray? |
| 20:48.03 | T0mW | heh |
| 20:48.04 | T`2 | lol |
| 20:48.22 | T`2 | hmm.. i think you can use that mixture to do the other side i gues |
| 20:49.15 | T0mW | T`2: I would imagine the surface tension of the solder would hold the parts in place. But you can get adhesive to syringe onto the board that will cure under the reflow temps. that will glue down the underside components. |
| 20:49.45 | T`2 | oh cool |
| 20:49.52 | T0mW | a little dot will do ya' |
| 20:50.05 | T`2 | so you put the adhesive before you put the parts ? |
| 20:50.18 | T`2 | like 1) apply paste 2) put adhesive dots 3) place parts 4) oven |
| 20:50.20 | T`2 | right ? |
| 20:50.35 | T0mW | but then you have the problem of screening the paste onto the other side of the board, with components already soldered to the one side....... |
| 20:51.19 | T`2 | well, i can see a few problems with heat transfer through the traces and via's |
| 20:51.25 | T0mW | you would need some work board (surface) that is machined out to have depressions where the underside components are so the board will sit flat in the paste fixture. |
| 20:51.42 | T0mW | PITA, $$$ |
| 20:52.01 | T0mW | just make the board bigger and put all components on the top side |
| 20:52.23 | T`2 | i wish i could make such a choice :( |
| 20:53.01 | T0mW | if you want components on both sides, you will have to spend $$$. either building a jig to paste on, or with a PCB assembly house to build your prototype for you. |
| 20:53.29 | T`2 | those SMD caps and resistors will be painful to avoid fallign off.. i will try it out |
| 20:54.23 | T0mW | T`2: you could probably just use a wooden work surface, such as the formica faced shelving at Home Depot, then use a router to route an area to relieve the places where the bottom side components are located? |
| 20:55.27 | T0mW | T`2: I leave it to your imagination. I don't need components on both sides as I only do prototypes, not finished boards. |
| 20:57.50 | T0mW | well, I have to go and find a plastic sewing box with little compartments in it (like an egg carton). I found that the most time I took to build the board was opening up packages of parts. This way, I'll take the ammo packs of parts, put them into compartements and drop a paper with the partname into the compartment. This way, all I should have to do is pick out the parts and read the value, strip them from the ammo pack and apply |
| 20:58.23 | T0mW | it took 1.5 hours to put all the parts on the board! |
| 20:58.26 | T`2 | well.. i'll see.. my bet is that mixture of solder will be sufficient |
| 20:58.42 | T0mW | I was afraid that the paste would dry out too much and be useless |
| 20:58.52 | T`2 | wow.. i bought these boxes from officedepot |
| 20:58.54 | T0mW | the paste is only rated for 45 minuts |
| 20:58.56 | T`2 | for like $10 each i think |
| 20:59.09 | T0mW | ok, I think I saw them there as well, thanks |
| 20:59.13 | T`2 | thy have like 32 compartments.. prolly 2"x2" |
| 20:59.22 | T0mW | YEAH! great |
| 20:59.38 | T0mW | I have 34 seperate parts (133 componets total) for this board. |
| 20:59.41 | T`2 | hey btw.. which company did u use for the screen? |
| 20:59.58 | T0mW | T`2: it is one that sparkfun webpage |
| 21:00.02 | T`2 | k |
| 21:00.22 | T0mW | they tell you who they use. The company (poulo.com ?) will take paypal |
| 21:00.58 | T0mW | T`2: wait one, I'll get you the URL for the sqeegee |
| 21:01.26 | T0mW | T`2: http://www.ntscope.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Return_Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MTC&Category_Code=TAM&Product_Code=SQG-15 |
| 21:01.36 | T`2 | i got it for $3 at Office depot |
| 21:02.03 | T0mW | that sqeegee worked great. The thing has a to be used only on one side, it has a burr on the other side. |
| 21:02.13 | T`2 | hey.. do you happen to know how to fix a hole in the wall ;) |
| 21:02.23 | T0mW | stick your head in it? |
| 21:02.40 | T`2 | i spoke to the costumer service at home depot and they asked me to buy some spackling paste |
| 21:02.42 | T0mW | or somebody elses, heh |
| 21:02.52 | T`2 | it was good, but its too soft to drill a screw into it.. |
| 21:03.07 | T`2 | haha.. yea too bad my head's not available at the moment |
| 21:03.15 | T0mW | nope, I'm completely useless at home improvement |
| 21:03.35 | T0mW | T`2: hire a carpenter |
| 21:03.57 | T`2 | uhh.. its a small area.. only 3" x 3" |
| 21:04.08 | T`2 | carpenter would be too much $$ |
| 21:04.15 | jbevren | T0mW: I'd rather use radiated heat to place things |
| 21:04.22 | jbevren | (finallycaught up) |
| 21:04.28 | jbevren | however, if it works for you, I'm all for trying it |
| 21:04.35 | T0mW | put mud around the inside edge of the hole, then cut a peice to fit into it? |
| 21:04.52 | T0mW | jbevren: whats that? |
| 21:05.12 | T0mW | jbevren: radiated heat? |
| 21:05.48 | jbevren | yeah |
| 21:05.52 | jbevren | you said your oven's convected |
| 21:06.01 | T0mW | yeah, but the fan is very gentle |
| 21:06.07 | jbevren | nod |
| 21:06.31 | jbevren | I still need to finish the article |
| 21:06.45 | T`2 | jbevren, convection is the best form of heating the board actually... its very even |
| 21:06.59 | T0mW | I was afraid that I'd have to disable the fan. The only position that used both the upper + lower heating elements was the "convection bake". |
| 21:06.59 | T`2 | well if they do it right |
| 21:07.04 | jbevren | hm |
| 21:07.10 | jbevren | the stencil is part of the challenge, |
| 21:07.15 | jbevren | do pcb houses offer them? |
| 21:07.21 | T0mW | jbevren: you got the URL for the sqeegee? |
| 21:07.28 | jbevren | I missed it (?) |
| 21:07.33 | T0mW | jbevren: no, most stencils are brass |
| 21:07.46 | T0mW | jbevren: http://www.ntscope.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Return_Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MTC&Category_Code=TAM&Product_Code=SQG-15 |
| 21:07.59 | jbevren | out of space in /dev/url |
| 21:07.59 | jbevren | lol |
| 21:08.14 | T0mW | jbevren: the brass stencils need to be placed into a rigid frame |
| 21:08.23 | T0mW | aka stretcher |
| 21:08.34 | jbevren | T0mW: btw where do you work? |
| 21:08.38 | jbevren | or do you just do contracting |
| 21:08.47 | T0mW | jbevren: I'm a self employed consultant |
| 21:08.53 | jbevren | so you do contracting :) |
| 21:09.00 | jbevren | I work as a consultant too |
| 21:09.02 | T0mW | contract work |
| 21:09.11 | jbevren | I'm just running a 2year contract atm |
| 21:09.59 | T0mW | I sort of stumbled into contracting, resigned the last engineering job, did some odd-jobs like fixing mobile radios, then landed a temp position doing some engineering work... |
| 21:10.17 | T0mW | 8 years later, I'm still doing contract work |
| 21:10.22 | jbevren | T0mW: I used to work as a pro drywaller |
| 21:10.28 | jbevren | so this squeege stuff brings back memories :-X |
| 21:10.34 | T0mW | hah, tell T`2 that |
| 21:10.52 | T0mW | he needs somebody to fix a hole in his drywall |
| 21:11.16 | T0mW | jbevren: what type of work do you do? |
| 21:12.43 | jbevren | T0mW: linux sysadmin and tech support |
| 21:12.48 | T`2 | jbevren, cool.. think you can give me some DIY suggestions for fixing my wall please? the apt. will charge me an arm if i dont fix it i think ;) |
| 21:12.52 | jbevren | Ive used linux for around 10 years, |
| 21:12.57 | T0mW | me too |
| 21:13.00 | jbevren | but only got in the door about 4 years ago |
| 21:13.12 | jbevren | I worked custodial/construction stuff before that |
| 21:13.26 | T0mW | jbevren: I do mostly anything, but the bulk of my income comes from software + hardware design of embedded systems |
| 21:14.07 | jbevren | ah |
| 21:14.12 | jbevren | I should learn to code :P |
| 21:14.17 | T0mW | jbevren: some network management, I maintain a linux network that I built for one customer: openvpn, my own linux distro, etc. |
| 21:14.17 | jbevren | I can modify programs of about any language |
| 21:14.24 | jbevren | but I cant make a program to save my life :) |
| 21:14.43 | T0mW | jbevren: bad, very bad. must learn to code. ;-) |
| 21:14.53 | T`2 | jbevren, i think thats a start.. modifying will be a learning experience |
| 21:15.06 | T0mW | jbevren: then you can be like CosmicPenguin and work as a daytime lackey |
| 21:15.11 | T`2 | well, atleast if you focus on the right things |
| 21:17.45 | T`2 | T0mW, when you pre-soak the oven, is the board already in it? |
| 21:18.34 | CosmicPenguin | Better a daytime lackey with money then a daytime lackey failure |
| 21:18.42 | CosmicPenguin | Which was what I was before |
| 21:18.48 | jbevren | T0mW: I kinda do |
| 21:18.50 | jbevren | I'm at work atm |
| 21:18.52 | T0mW | T`2: yes, you want to bring the parts up to temperature, not too hot as 150C will destroy semiconductors if applied too long. |
| 21:18.59 | jbevren | T0mW: I can make some fair shell scripts |
| 21:19.03 | jbevren | I have a snmp monitor in bash :) |
| 21:19.07 | T`2 | T0mW, aah ok |
| 21:19.25 | T0mW | T`2: then, bring the heat up to just under the solder reflow temp, you are now staging. |
| 21:19.41 | T0mW | T`2: finally, you spike the heat to actually melt the solder. |
| 21:19.46 | jbevren | hm |
| 21:19.53 | jbevren | temp probe.. |
| 21:20.01 | T0mW | prolly would be good thing to have... |
| 21:20.15 | jbevren | T0mW: I like the tidbit about skillet flowing |
| 21:20.21 | T0mW | I don't |
| 21:21.12 | T0mW | that is using conductive heat, you run the risk of causing the fiberglass glue to fail and the trace adhesive to fail |
| 21:22.07 | jbevren | good point :) |
| 21:22.20 | T0mW | I tried that, with my electric stove and an aluminum plate. It was a total failure. Maybe it will work for the tiny little boards sparkfun is using, but not on a larger board, say 4" square. there is just too much thermal resistance to fiberglass. |
| 21:23.02 | T0mW | the toaster oven relies on transfer of heat via the air, rather than conducting it via the fiberglass |
| 21:23.21 | T0mW | well, IR heating with toaster oven.. heh |
| 21:23.55 | jbevren | see, I figured IR heat would be better than convected, cause it heats from above |
| 21:24.09 | jbevren | aside from getting the parts hotter, the pcb doesnt get as much heat exposure as it would in a convected setup |
| 21:24.10 | jbevren | but, |
| 21:24.23 | jbevren | after reading the temp/time stuff, I see that the pcb has to be hot anyway |
| 21:26.30 | T0mW | jbevren: yeah, with toaster oven, you are heating the surfaces of the PCB, with the frypan you are heating the board throughout |
| 21:28.45 | jbevren | tom: nod. |
| 21:28.59 | jbevren | T0mW: home depot has better compartment boxen |
| 21:39.30 | jbevren | ok |
| 21:39.38 | jbevren | if one cant ltrace or strace a process, |
| 21:39.44 | jbevren | how does he determine why its d-state? |
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| 22:23.23 | Genesis | bonne nuit |
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| 23:02.57 | sorphin | jbevren: guy at work got all the ubuntu cds sent to him, so i snagged the PPC one, since i have the A3000s |
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