| 00:35.49 | prpplague | chouimat: yea, read about it on groklaw earlier |
| 01:45.55 | prpplague | Crofton|laptop: my early morning rant is up on the archive now |
| 01:46.00 | prpplague | Crofton|laptop: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23elinux/20050505.html.gz |
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| 03:13.18 | chouimat|Zzzz | night |
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| 07:45.12 | T0mW | gak |
| 07:46.16 | T0mW | a penny here, a dime there ... The customer wanted to know how cheap I could make a 1000 lot design. |
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| 14:00.37 | prpplague | morning folks |
| 14:01.16 | prpplague | is it my imagingation or has there been alot of "connection timed out" disconnects lately? |
| 14:18.32 | chouimat | morning |
| 14:22.22 | prpplague | chouimat: lo ho |
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| 14:24.25 | CosmicPenguin | Morning folks |
| 14:24.54 | prpplague | odd, i don't recall seeing a 2.4.30 release for arm |
| 14:25.03 | prpplague | anyone seen that? |
| 14:25.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23elinux/20050505.html.gz |
| 14:26.07 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: my rant about LAK is there now if you are interested, hehe |
| 14:41.25 | CosmicPenguin | I didn't see that about your confrence |
| 14:41.36 | CosmicPenguin | Keep C&W in the loop and let them know that they need me to come down and drink beer |
| 14:42.05 | prpplague | hehe, will do |
| 14:43.47 | chouimat | hi prpplague CosmicPenguin |
| 14:43.47 | CosmicPenguin | And the funny part is the spansion chips don't do CFI |
| 14:44.01 | CosmicPenguin | Did I say funny? I mean tragic |
| 14:45.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea |
| 14:46.24 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: 30 secs of reading the datasheet and he'd have his answer |
| 14:46.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you should see their website too |
| 14:47.07 | CosmicPenguin | It sucks when you don't end up as smart as your marketing promises |
| 14:47.18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: it puts on a show like they are mobile OS gods |
| 14:47.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe |
| 14:48.14 | CosmicPenguin | Well, technically, if you put dos on a floppy and carry it to the next building, its a mobile OS |
| 14:49.07 | prpplague | HA |
| 14:49.56 | CosmicPenguin | What sort of linux developer sends code in a damn .zip file? |
| 14:50.58 | prpplague | hehe |
| 14:51.13 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, that drives me nuts |
| 14:51.43 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the one i hate is when ppl ask about doing arm dev under cygwin |
| 14:52.13 | CosmicPenguin | colinux is ok |
| 14:55.25 | T0mW | heh, yeah, zip your linux data |
| 14:56.12 | T0mW | I recall running Windows3 and wondering who was using all those "tgz" and "tar" files |
| 14:56.52 | T0mW | Trumpet + Winsock |
| 14:58.04 | T0mW | :) |
| 14:58.20 | T0mW | Crofton: been a while, hasn't it? |
| 14:59.17 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: my problem wasn't letting go of zip files, it was letting go of WordStar (Joe) |
| 15:01.26 | chouimat | wordstar .... |
| 15:01.31 | CosmicPenguin | mmm... wordstar |
| 15:01.54 | CosmicPenguin | I recall wordstar on the trusty PC XT |
| 15:01.56 | chouimat | and then you switch to pc and you're stuck with edlin |
| 15:02.05 | CosmicPenguin | I think my dad still has that boxen actually - we should fire it up |
| 15:02.11 | CosmicPenguin | 8088 lovin' |
| 15:03.59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe, i still have a caldera dr-dos cd |
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| 15:11.04 | T0mW | hmmmm, "I don't expect you will see any price breaks for anything under 50k units per year" |
| 15:11.08 | T0mW | right |
| 15:12.06 | CosmicPenguin | T0mW: processor? |
| 15:12.24 | T0mW | LPC2106BBD48 |
| 15:12.46 | T0mW | ARM7TDMI + 128K Flash + 64K SRAM |
| 15:12.50 | CosmicPenguin | Right - but was the processor the component in question in the previous comment? |
| 15:12.57 | T0mW | yeah |
| 15:13.16 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 15:13.21 | CosmicPenguin | Thats a lot of processors right there |
| 15:13.31 | T0mW | I only thought that this design would be, maybe, 500..1000 units/yr |
| 15:13.52 | T0mW | customer tells me that current yearly volume is around 5000/yr |
| 15:14.24 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: new design, so far I've got it down to $20.23 material cost |
| 15:15.06 | CosmicPenguin | niceness |
| 15:15.33 | T0mW | yah, it has been an interesting exercise, now if I can get purchase order.... |
| 15:15.55 | T0mW | oh, that includes the PCB |
| 15:22.52 | prpplague | T0mW: wow |
| 15:23.10 | prpplague | T0mW: how many layers? |
| 15:23.19 | T0mW | prpplague: 2 |
| 15:23.35 | prpplague | T0mW: wow and board size? |
| 15:23.45 | T0mW | 1.5" X 3.0" |
| 15:23.52 | prpplague | nice |
| 15:24.16 | prpplague | T0mW: roughly the same size as the board i'm working with, but its 6 layers |
| 15:24.37 | T0mW | yeah, he needs the board bigger to meet the mounting holes inside the unit... I should make it smaller and put it inside a dongle? |
| 15:25.14 | T0mW | problem is that the RJ45 connectors don't come any smaller |
| 15:26.57 | T0mW | but, the plastic enclosure will probably be more expensive than the cost of enlarging the PCB |
| 15:27.14 | T0mW | $1+ |
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| 15:27.44 | T0mW | prpplague: what processor is on that 6 layer board? |
| 15:27.55 | prpplague | T0mW: lh79520 |
| 15:28.30 | T0mW | heh, BGA Flash + SDRAM then |
| 15:28.51 | prpplague | T0mW: negative, no bga |
| 15:29.00 | T0mW | ? interesting |
| 15:29.19 | prpplague | T0mW: all solderable by hand |
| 15:35.38 | T0mW | prpplague: albiet that you would need a microscope to do that |
| 15:36.35 | T0mW | s/albiet/albeit/ |
| 15:37.26 | prpplague | T0mW: i didn't have any problems doing it without one |
| 15:37.48 | prpplague | T0mW: of couse once we have it all ready, it'll be done by a p-n-p machine |
| 15:39.32 | T0mW | I could shrink the board to perhaps 0.850" X 2.4", that might be interesting to do... |
| 15:41.24 | T0mW | heh |
| 15:42.36 | T0mW | the processor runs around 30ma active current, the RS232 stuff is around 10ma current... Too bad I couldn't power this thing off an RS232 connection: e.g. the voltage between DTR + GND |
| 15:43.00 | T0mW | but that is only going to be about 7ma |
| 15:43.36 | T0mW | OOPS! I forgot, I need a crystal for the processor! |
| 15:43.46 | T0mW | damn, more cost |
| 15:59.33 | T0mW | Hmm, processor costs $3 more than I had estimated |
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| 16:11.41 | prpplague | anyone have a vr-3? |
| 16:20.17 | CosmicPenguin | Does any one else think that replacing initrds with initramfs is at best a mixed blessing? |
| 16:20.46 | CosmicPenguin | Being able to attach a small initrd based filesystem on the kernel is a neat embedded trick - at least IMHO |
| 16:21.43 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i agree |
| 16:21.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: pretty handy in book |
| 16:22.00 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: especially when bringing up a new board |
| 16:23.13 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: of course thats my $0.02 , andersee and TimRiker might have more experience to add |
| 16:24.14 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: oh, I totally agree |
| 16:24.45 | CosmicPenguin | Thats not to say that I don't agree with the premise of the initramfs |
| 16:25.22 | CosmicPenguin | Its 100% better then the initrd crap that Redhat pulls, for example |
| 16:25.43 | CosmicPenguin | But in the embedded world, sometimes we do it because we don't actually have any storage media elsewhere |
| 16:25.44 | prpplague | yea |
| 16:26.42 | CosmicPenguin | Well - crapola.... |
| 16:37.23 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 16:37.57 | CosmicPenguin | Brad LaRonde is in the house! |
| 16:38.14 | TimRiker | =) |
| 16:38.52 | CosmicPenguin | I don't know about the rest of you, but I still think FLTK was a good choice |
| 16:39.05 | CosmicPenguin | IT remains my personal favorite toolkit to develop in |
| 16:39.35 | prpplague | TimRiker: would it be possible for you to time the boot up process? |
| 16:39.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: still mine as well |
| 16:39.55 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i crank out little apps almost every week |
| 16:40.22 | TimRiker | prpplague: sure. |
| 16:43.39 | TimRiker | about 32 seconds till the launch pad finishes drawing. |
| 16:43.57 | TimRiker | or do you want info someplace before that? |
| 16:45.05 | prpplague | TimRiker: naw, thats fine, thanks |
| 16:45.20 | prpplague | TimRiker: you opinion, does it seem like a long time? |
| 16:45.46 | TimRiker | about 3 seconds for kernel boot, another 17 or so for everything up to X. |
| 16:46.39 | TimRiker | the 2 seconds without anything on screen bother me more than the 30 seconds for the rest. |
| 16:46.44 | prpplague | TimRiker: wow 3 secs? is that for the decompression? |
| 16:47.11 | TimRiker | probably so. I don't have a console on it here. nothing shows up till the kernel frame buffer kicks in. |
| 16:47.24 | prpplague | hmm |
| 16:47.32 | TimRiker | hmm... actually iirc the kernel is xip. |
| 16:47.38 | prpplague | TimRiker: ahh |
| 16:48.14 | TimRiker | likely just the normal loop calibration, plus a delay on the bootloader to wait for serial input or something. |
| 16:48.47 | prpplague | TimRiker: hmm, i'm getting about 10secs for the kernel to decompress |
| 16:49.02 | TimRiker | ouch. that's a long time. |
| 16:49.04 | prpplague | TimRiker: i'm thinking i might try going xip |
| 16:49.17 | prpplague | TimRiker: 60mhz with a 16 bit databus for flash and ram |
| 17:00.47 | TimRiker | xip saves you on boot time, but typically costs you on run performance. |
| 17:01.12 | prpplague | TimRiker: hmm, well i need all the perfomance i can get |
| 17:01.28 | prpplague | TimRiker: so i'll probably just do what i can to make the image as small as possible |
| 17:01.51 | TimRiker | if the device witll suspend/resume and you're not trying to fit into sram, I don't think I'd recommend xip |
| 17:02.05 | prpplague | TimRiker: pb_ seemed to think running an uncompressed kernel might help, but i was think that would be a trade off since it would take long to transfer the bigger image to ram |
| 17:02.19 | TimRiker | check the celf bootup time stuff. just precomputing the bogomips gains you a lot. |
| 17:02.50 | TimRiker | then move devices and processes that are not required for boot (ie: display) to modules and background proceses. |
| 17:03.14 | TimRiker | display something on screen as soon as possible (ie: with the bootloader) and it'll "feel faster" |
| 17:03.59 | prpplague | TimRiker: the actuall boot time is small about 2 secs |
| 17:04.13 | TimRiker | yeah, I'd stay with a compressed kernel. avoid a doubly compressed kernel though. ie: tuxscreen still has a compressed kernel stored on a compressed filesystem (jffs2). kinda silly that, just never fixed it. |
| 17:04.13 | prpplague | TimRiker: its the decompressing the kernel thats taking forever |
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| 17:04.57 | TimRiker | 10 seconds is forever. that does not sound right to me. |
| 17:05.20 | TimRiker | check that your caches are enabled correctly? |
| 17:05.22 | prpplague | TimRiker: even at that speed |
| 17:05.44 | TimRiker | yeah. /me grabs another board to compare.... |
| 17:08.23 | TimRiker | I'm getting about 3 seconds for decompression on my osk5912 |
| 17:08.33 | TimRiker | it's at 192Mhz iirc |
| 17:09.04 | prpplague | TimRiker: with 32-bit bus? |
| 17:18.04 | TimRiker | 16 bit flash iirc. 32 bit ram. |
| 17:18.24 | TimRiker | osk5912 schematics are available, you could check. ;-) |
| 17:20.17 | T0mW | ~ibot ibcs |
| 17:20.18 | ibot | well, ibcs is crap |
| 17:20.26 | T0mW | ~botsnack |
| 17:20.26 | ibot | :), T0mW |
| 17:21.57 | prpplague | crude, i'm getting code block again today :( |
| 17:22.50 | prpplague | time for some groove salad |
| 17:24.24 | prpplague | TimRiker: looks like the nor flash is 32 |
| 17:28.15 | prpplague | TimRiker: looks like flash is 32 and ram is 16 |
| 17:33.15 | TimRiker | hmm. could be. |
| 17:33.53 | prpplague | TimRiker: the flash is 16-bit with two banks, upper and lower, the ram is just a single bank at 16 |
| 17:36.30 | TimRiker | k |
| 17:36.59 | TimRiker | should ask in #ol about boot times for nand only booting. I don't have one of those. I expect it's longer. |
| 17:40.46 | prpplague | TimRiker: yea, i was just curious, i've still got some hacking for sd/mmc to do |
| 17:41.04 | prpplague | TimRiker: probably worry about boot times when more of the core stuff is done |
| 17:44.34 | prpplague | TimRiker: thanks for the info |
| 17:44.41 | prpplague | TimRiker: i appreciate the efforty |
| 17:48.04 | chouimat | all external usb/fw hdd are ide with an adapter inside the case? |
| 17:48.27 | prpplague | chouimat: all the ones i've seen |
| 17:49.05 | chouimat | prpplague: ok ... so it's cheaper to get the drive and the enclosure separately from what I have seen |
| 18:23.02 | T0mW | too bad surface mount ICs have to be mounted flush with the pcb, you cannot put parts underneath them |
| 18:23.02 | prpplague | yikes |
| 18:23.05 | prpplague | its about to rain |
| 18:23.15 | T0mW | prpplague: tsunami? |
| 18:23.25 | prpplague | T0mW: naw, just some tropical stuff |
| 18:23.34 | T0mW | prpplague: oh, cyclone |
| 18:23.43 | prpplague | T0mW: naw |
| 18:23.49 | T0mW | :D |
| 18:23.55 | prpplague | T0mW: http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/local/BGI:9 |
| 18:24.16 | prpplague | T0mW: purple spot just above the weather channel logo on the radar |
| 18:26.45 | T0mW | prpplague: http://www.weather.com/weather/local/USPA0025?from=search_city |
| 18:28.41 | T0mW | prpplague: your map is prettier than my map. :( |
| 18:29.04 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:29.21 | T0mW | your map has all those pretty red spots on it |
| 18:29.35 | prpplague | T0mW: whats funny, if you click on the map, it shows a map that doesn't even have barbados on the picture |
| 18:30.25 | T0mW | well, you just don't live out in the sticks somewhere, you live on a remote tropical island |
| 18:30.56 | T0mW | prpplague: boy, when people told you as a kid to "get lost", you really took that to heart |
| 18:31.03 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe, yea well, the map is available, you have to just go to a different url |
| 18:31.08 | prpplague | T0mW: hehe |
| 18:31.33 | prpplague | T0mW: its like the ppl who made the link in the db had no clue where barbados was on the map |
| 18:31.44 | T0mW | prpplague: you know what an RJ45 coupler is (female-female 8 pin)? |
| 18:31.53 | prpplague | T0mW: yea |
| 18:32.24 | T0mW | I'm thinking of sticking the electronics inside one of those and adding about another inch to the length. |
| 18:32.33 | T0mW | I dunno if it would fit... |
| 18:32.53 | T0mW | prpplague: would be a great gag, take that to the customer |
| 18:33.08 | prpplague | T0mW: why not use one of the digi units |
| 18:33.14 | prpplague | T0mW: shoudl run your code |
| 18:33.18 | T0mW | yeah |
| 18:33.21 | T0mW | $$$ |
| 18:33.34 | T0mW | Processor I have is < $9 |
| 18:33.45 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, but it would be cute to show |
| 18:33.53 | T0mW | QFP64 |
| 18:34.05 | T0mW | wonder what the net+arm would be |
| 18:34.13 | T0mW | like the digi |
| 18:34.28 | T0mW | only if it cost less |
| 18:34.51 | T0mW | this processor has A/D conversion, I need that |
| 18:34.56 | prpplague | http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html |
| 18:35.34 | T0mW | yeah, seen that, one of the chips I have only measure 5/16" square |
| 18:35.42 | prpplague | wow |
| 18:36.48 | T0mW | prpplague: http://www.standardics.philips.com/packaging/pkgoutlines/pdf/sot313-2.pdf |
| 18:38.43 | T0mW | the one I'll probably use is 0.5" square |
| 18:39.10 | prpplague | nice |
| 18:39.24 | T0mW | yeah, reduced pin count |
| 18:40.15 | T0mW | problem is that the tiny one uses 1.8v + 3.3v supplies. The larger chip only uses 3.3v and has +5v tolerant pins |
| 18:40.47 | T0mW | either way, I'd need two supplies derived from 12v |
| 18:41.25 | T0mW | hmm, wonder if someone has a 3.3v + ajustable in an SOT-223 package? |
| 18:42.43 | T0mW | prpplague: bitch is finding that sort of stuff, takes me a lot of time wandering the net and webpages to find the "goodies" |
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| 18:43.31 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, btdt |
| 18:43.46 | T0mW | stdt (still there doing that) |
| 18:43.49 | T0mW | heh |
| 18:44.14 | T0mW | it is not only that you have to do software + hardware, but data mining as well! |
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| 18:51.22 | prpplague | crude, my sd/mmc code isn't working now that i've shoved it into blob |
| 18:53.14 | TimRiker | bummer. did you ever get the pet mmc blob code? I don't know if it made it to the main tree or not. |
| 18:55.12 | prpplague | TimRiker: not that i am aware of, how was the mmc implemented? |
| 18:55.20 | prpplague | TimRiker: via a controler or via spi? |
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| 19:02.00 | TimRiker | don't recall. it was on the 1510. I don't recall if there was a mmc controller. seems to me there was. |
| 19:02.17 | TimRiker | yeah, pretty sure the 1510 has mmc support in it. |
| 19:04.53 | prpplague | TimRiker: would have been nice to see that code for blob |
| 19:09.26 | TimRiker | prpplague: I'm pretty sure it at least went to erik. |
| 19:15.57 | prpplague | TimRiker: i'll ask him about it in the morning, he's already gone for the day |
| 19:16.07 | prpplague | TimRiker: thanks for the info |
| 19:46.24 | prpplague | the rain just started |
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