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| 04:55.33 | *** topic/#elinux is Embedded Linux || http://eLinux.org/ || cross compile, uClibc, busybox, tinylogin, handhelds, post-sale linux installs ;-), etc. || free embedded linux training at http://free-electrons.com/news/news.2004-09-28/en || see prpplague about custom holly-gates jtag dongles |
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| 05:16.49 | *** topic/#elinux is Embedded Linux || http://eLinux.org/ || cross compile, uClibc, busybox, tinylogin, handhelds, post-sale linux installs ;-), etc. || free embedded linux training at http://free-electrons.com/news/news.2004-09-28/en || see prpplague about custom holly-gates jtag dongles |
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| 14:44.35 | CosmicPenguin | Morning |
| 14:45.40 | Crofton | morning it is |
| 14:49.06 | Crofton | ~quote nflx |
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| 14:58.14 | CosmicPenguin | Its meeting time boys and girls!\ |
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| 16:08.56 | sjhill | crap, wth is Tom |
| 16:09.00 | sjhill | prpplague: you there? |
| 16:09.25 | prpplague | sjhill: hey |
| 16:09.29 | prpplague | sjhill: what up? |
| 16:10.55 | sjhill | what type of package is PLCC? |
| 16:11.42 | [sorphin] | heh |
| 16:11.47 | sjhill | oh, nevermind |
| 16:11.49 | sjhill | hey [sorphin] |
| 16:12.35 | sjhill | i'll assume that if i'm designing my own board, that i should stick with LQFP and stay away from anything BGA |
| 16:12.39 | [sorphin] | sjhill: look at a tivo prom chip, or some newer bios chips (square), those are plccs (they have J shaped pins) |
| 16:12.58 | sjhill | [sorphin]: yup, just found a diagram |
| 16:12.59 | sjhill | thx |
| 16:13.00 | [sorphin] | bga gains you some board space by not tying up space w/ pins |
| 16:13.02 | [sorphin] | but |
| 16:13.14 | [sorphin] | it's a royal PITA if you're doing anything 'manually' |
| 16:13.21 | sjhill | which i am |
| 16:13.35 | sjhill | TQFP/LQFP it is |
| 16:13.50 | [sorphin] | 208 pins baybee |
| 16:13.52 | [sorphin] | *grin* |
| 16:14.50 | [sorphin] | hehe |
| 16:15.32 | [sorphin] | what's wrong w/ lqfp? |
| 16:15.53 | sjhill | nothing that i'm aware of, i'm just learning |
| 16:16.07 | [sorphin] | ah |
| 16:17.02 | [sorphin] | those nice shiney intel ethernet chipsets (82559, etc) or whatever they were |
| 16:17.12 | [sorphin] | those are QFP |
| 16:18.03 | sjhill | ok |
| 16:18.14 | [sorphin] | the nice 208pin chips |
| 16:19.31 | [sorphin] | sjhill: if you can deal w/ pdfs |
| 16:19.33 | [sorphin] | http://www.intersil.com/design/packages/plastic.asp |
| 16:20.39 | sjhill | outstanding |
| 16:20.40 | sjhill | thx |
| 16:20.52 | [sorphin] | yep |
| 16:21.28 | [sorphin] | sjhill: fyi |
| 16:22.12 | [sorphin] | this is a 48pin lpqf: http://www.gameconquer.com/img_k7s5a/chip_peq.jpg |
| 16:22.20 | [sorphin] | erm |
| 16:22.23 | [sorphin] | lqfp |
| 16:22.27 | [sorphin] | i need more sleep |
| 16:23.43 | [sorphin] | tqfp is thinner |
| 16:24.00 | [sorphin] | like: http://www.lsilogic.com/images/lsi2004/products/asic/packaging/tqfp.jpg |
| 16:25.34 | [sorphin] | and bga... well, it's what a PGA looks like w/ balls of solder instead of pins :P |
| 16:26.24 | MonMotha | BGAs are a pain in the ass to deal with as a hobbiest |
| 16:26.33 | MonMotha | everything else is at least remotely doable... |
| 16:26.44 | [sorphin] | MonMotha: quite |
| 16:26.55 | kergoth | bleh |
| 16:27.07 | MonMotha | only luck I've seen people have with BGAs is removing them and destroying the chip in the process |
| 16:27.12 | [sorphin] | kergoth: "sounds like someone's got a case of the muhndays" |
| 16:27.31 | [sorphin] | MonMotha: yeah, not realy meant to be removed.... ever |
| 16:27.35 | MonMotha | indeed |
| 16:28.00 | [sorphin] | MonMotha: but if you're going production and boardspace is premium |
| 16:28.02 | [sorphin] | bga is teh way to go |
| 16:28.07 | MonMotha | yup, that was the idea with them |
| 16:28.25 | MonMotha | about as small of a package as you can get while still maintaining lots of connections |
| 16:28.31 | [sorphin] | yeah |
| 16:30.26 | Soopaman | quick question |
| 16:30.44 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: quick answer |
| 16:31.01 | Soopaman | is it possible to corrupt/mess up a hardrive that is readonly mounted? |
| 16:31.12 | [sorphin] | uhh |
| 16:31.17 | sjhill | Soopaman: sure, use 'dd' |
| 16:31.35 | sjhill | heh |
| 16:31.53 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: what the lackey said, to the raw dev |
| 16:32.02 | Soopaman | sjhill, how does dd wipe a R/O drive? |
| 16:32.05 | MonMotha | it's sad, I have full unicode set up in mozilla...so that I can display my spam |
| 16:32.15 | [sorphin] | MonMotha: freak |
| 16:32.27 | MonMotha | well, it gets used for other things too |
| 16:32.45 | MonMotha | mostly greek and math symbols, as well as some Japanese that I can barely read sometimes |
| 16:32.58 | MonMotha | however, >50% of my spam is in Chinese or Korean (mostly Chinese) |
| 16:35.25 | Soopaman | sjhill, but the user would need to be root do to that correct? |
| 16:35.31 | [sorphin] | right now (since my network still isn't back up) all my spam is nowhere |
| 16:35.38 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: ya |
| 16:35.45 | [sorphin] | unless |
| 16:35.48 | [sorphin] | you were stupid |
| 16:35.50 | [sorphin] | :P |
| 16:36.42 | Soopaman | hmm... trying to figure out a some what foolproof of protecting a hd (without "leaving it unplugged" hardy har har [sorphin] ) |
| 16:36.58 | [sorphin] | i resent that :P |
| 16:37.02 | Soopaman | heheh |
| 16:37.11 | Soopaman | gotta pre-emptively strike down your jokes |
| 16:37.14 | MonMotha | well, older hard drives (especially SCSI ones) had a write protect jumper |
| 16:37.53 | MonMotha | I haven't seen that recently, though some SCSI controllers can still be configured to enforce that in software (though that may still be overridable) |
| 16:40.08 | Soopaman | the way my I want the system set up is to use one drive to host all the unverified data transactions, and only push verified data to the drives mounted as ro (remount to rw to check in verified, then "put the lid back on") |
| 16:40.33 | Soopaman | remount as* |
| 16:41.06 | Soopaman | remount as rw to check in the verified data, then "put the lid back on" by remounting it as ro |
| 16:44.58 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: wasn't gonna make a comment like that btw :P |
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| 16:48.31 | Soopaman | heheh, ok |
| 16:48.50 | Soopaman | but do you understand what i'm trying to accomplish? |
| 16:49.57 | [sorphin] | yes |
| 16:50.38 | Soopaman | is what i described the only/best way to go about it? |
| 16:51.11 | [sorphin] | i missed what you described, only saw monmotha's comments |
| 16:51.40 | Soopaman | oh, can you scroll up, or do i need to repaste? |
| 16:52.01 | [sorphin] | can't scroll up on these stupid xterms when in BX |
| 17:12.37 | sjhill | ok |
| 17:12.45 | sjhill | so, now i need a good board layout program |
| 17:16.21 | CosmicPenguin | My nominee for usless program of the day: http://freshmeat.net/projects/unsort/?branch_id=56577&release_id=188670 |
| 17:16.30 | CosmicPenguin | s/usless/useless/ |
| 17:16.38 | CosmicPenguin | That sounds more like a CS101 programming assignment |
| 17:17.47 | Soopaman | [sorphin], the way my I want the system set up is to use one drive to host all the unverified data transactions, and only push verified data to the drives mounted as ro (remount as rw to check in the verified data, then "put the lid back on" by remounting it as ro) |
| 17:18.03 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: actuallly that would have been useful at abcs |
| 17:18.35 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: ok |
| 17:20.03 | Soopaman | any opinions either way? |
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| 17:20.14 | chouimat|lunch | CosmicPenguin: i can't live wiyhout unsort ;) |
| 17:20.37 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: well, tivos use a r/o root w/o issue |
| 17:21.47 | sjhill | hmm, so i wonder if PCB (pcb.sf.net) does multilayer boards |
| 17:22.01 | prpplague | sjhill: it does |
| 17:22.17 | prpplague | sjhill: not easy to get started with though |
| 17:22.39 | prpplague | sjhill: eaglecad light for linux is pretty good for dual layer boards |
| 17:22.54 | prpplague | sjhill: what kind of stuff you need to do? |
| 17:23.04 | sjhill | that's classified |
| 17:23.07 | sjhill | jk |
| 17:23.27 | Soopaman | [sorphin], true, but tivo's use malformed partitions an their own filesystem to protect the jewels |
| 17:23.29 | kergoth | bleh |
| 17:23.54 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: wrong |
| 17:24.12 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: nothing really 'malformed', it's just an apple partition layout |
| 17:24.16 | sjhill | prpplague: fpga, microcontroller, some memory chips(s)...maybe 6 chips in all...all of them QFP |
| 17:24.38 | prpplague | sjhill: just 2 layers? or will you need to go to 4? |
| 17:24.45 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: and... the rootfs is ext2 :P |
| 17:24.50 | [sorphin] | there's no 'jewels' |
| 17:24.54 | sjhill | honestly, i think 2 will be enough |
| 17:24.59 | sjhill | why, what happens if i want 4? |
| 17:25.13 | prpplague | sjhill: the eaglecad light( free version) only does 2 |
| 17:25.17 | [sorphin] | sjhill: no more 'lite' |
| 17:25.20 | sjhill | oh |
| 17:25.21 | Soopaman | [sorphin], but all their critical data is stored in MFS |
| 17:25.35 | prpplague | sjhill: you'd need to go pay $50 for the next one up |
| 17:25.52 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: not for the reason you think |
| 17:26.03 | Soopaman | [sorphin], elaborate please |
| 17:26.06 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: mfs is a hybrid filesystem |
| 17:26.11 | [sorphin] | it's part DB |
| 17:26.22 | [sorphin] | part raw data |
| 17:26.23 | sjhill | cool |
| 17:26.30 | sjhill | even $399 is not that bad |
| 17:26.34 | Soopaman | k, i understand that |
| 17:26.38 | sjhill | thx guys |
| 17:26.47 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: all mfs really does is index to the raw data for anything that isn't just a structure |
| 17:26.49 | [sorphin] | sjhill: indeed |
| 17:26.53 | Soopaman | which i'm trying to re-invent using mysql+xfs |
| 17:27.01 | [sorphin] | nod |
| 17:27.05 | [sorphin] | good choices |
| 17:27.24 | Soopaman | i'm just worried that mysql will be too intensive for embedded devices |
| 17:27.53 | prpplague | sjhill: eagle has alot of predefined devices, and they are easy to modify |
| 17:27.53 | Soopaman | and sqlite doesn't particularly play nice with php yet |
| 17:27.53 | kergoth | really? i thought php had decent sqlite bindings by now |
| 17:28.00 | prpplague | thats what i was about to say |
| 17:28.06 | Soopaman | or atleast as nice as mysql |
| 17:28.21 | CosmicPenguin | sqlite is great |
| 17:28.33 | kergoth | sqlite3 is really nice. i've been really impressed with it |
| 17:28.34 | Soopaman | have you used it for webapplications? |
| 17:28.44 | Soopaman | hmm.. haven't played with v3 yet |
| 17:28.53 | kergoth | i love the new feature where you can pull in data from multiple db files into your queries |
| 17:28.55 | CosmicPenguin | What sort of mysqlish things do you think you need on an embedded system? |
| 17:29.49 | CosmicPenguin | I mean, if you're running on an opteron, then sure - bring out the big guns |
| 17:30.46 | Soopaman | hmmm... my biggest concern would be making mysql+php apps play nice with sqlite+php |
| 17:31.18 | kergoth | fyi, apparently the linux journal unionfs article is available online now |
| 17:31.19 | kergoth | http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7714 |
| 17:31.25 | kergoth | someone mentioned it on the ml |
| 17:31.32 | kergoth | ~unionfs |
| 17:31.33 | ibot | [unionfs] a stackable unification filesystem. See http://www.fsl.cs.sunysb.edu/project-unionfs.html for details. |
| 17:32.08 | CosmicPenguin | COol |
| 17:32.11 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: thanks |
| 17:32.16 | Soopaman | interesting |
| 17:32.18 | kergoth | np |
| 17:32.34 | kergoth | Soopaman: its incredibly useful for embedded, livecds, etc. |
| 17:32.38 | prpplague | kergoth: yea we are using sqlite3 in a project here |
| 17:32.42 | kergoth | cool |
| 17:32.58 | prpplague | kergoth: my boss was amazed that we could get sql functionality in such a small package |
| 17:33.20 | kergoth | i've been pretty impressed by its performance. i expected it to be slweor than it is |
| 17:33.52 | prpplague | yea, we are running on a 77mhz device and its smooth as glass |
| 17:34.00 | [sorphin] | heh |
| 17:34.22 | Soopaman | kergoth, that looks really interesting, is it it's own journalled fs, or is it more of an abstraction layer for other fs'? |
| 17:34.35 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: whoever did the unionroot stuff in OE could have doucmented the scripts a bit better |
| 17:34.35 | kergoth | Soopaman: for other fs's |
| 17:34.39 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: they're hard to follow sometimes |
| 17:34.45 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: cwiiis in #oe |
| 17:34.54 | CosmicPenguin | thats righty |
| 17:34.58 | CosmicPenguin | s/y$// |
| 17:35.02 | Soopaman | ok, that may be one of the coolest things i have seen in a while |
| 17:35.15 | kergoth | Soopaman: so you acn easily mount a ramfs on top of your read only /, and write to your hearts content anywhere. |
| 17:35.24 | CosmicPenguin | Soopaman: its been around in BSD for a while, just recently made its way over |
| 17:35.24 | Soopaman | sexy |
| 17:35.25 | prpplague | kergoth: btw, how did the VD date go? |
| 17:35.45 | [sorphin] | he got VD *grin* |
| 17:35.47 | kergoth | prpplague: pretty well, thanks |
| 17:35.49 | Soopaman | lol |
| 17:35.51 | CosmicPenguin | Only 1 course of pennicillin! |
| 17:35.56 | CosmicPenguin | yea! |
| 17:35.57 | [sorphin] | ;) |
| 17:36.13 | Soopaman | kergoth, how was the environment of that restaurant? |
| 17:37.20 | kergoth | texas de brazil? it was pretty nice. i'm not used to the continuous nature of it though, used to a specific course |
| 17:37.46 | CosmicPenguin | oh, its a brazilian place? |
| 17:37.50 | CosmicPenguin | yeah, thats fun |
| 17:37.54 | kergoth | brazilian steakhouse, yeah |
| 17:38.01 | Soopaman | oh, it was one of those multiple course places? |
| 17:38.03 | CosmicPenguin | My wife only goes for the pineapple |
| 17:38.08 | kergoth | they just keep bringing meats by |
| 17:38.11 | kergoth | "here, want some chicken?" |
| 17:38.14 | kergoth | i ate too much :\ |
| 17:38.22 | CosmicPenguin | The meat is way too good |
| 17:38.29 | kergoth | yeah |
| 17:38.58 | CosmicPenguin | When they're holding meat on a stick in front of you - its hard to say no |
| 17:39.04 | sjhill | oh oh |
| 17:39.06 | sjhill | i love those places |
| 17:39.09 | kergoth | so true |
| 17:39.21 | sjhill | went to one is Provo, Utah...different name i think though |
| 17:39.30 | sjhill | kergoth: you went on a date? |
| 17:39.30 | CosmicPenguin | sjhill: that would have been Rodizio Grlll, probably... :) |
| 17:39.38 | sjhill | CosmicPenguin: thank you :) |
| 17:39.50 | Soopaman | kergoth, that is exactly like fogo de chaeo |
| 17:39.50 | CosmicPenguin | sjhill: and I never knew you were in Provo - how long did it take you to recover? |
| 17:39.56 | Soopaman | hahahah |
| 17:40.41 | [sorphin] | sjhill: yeah scary innit? |
| 17:41.10 | sjhill | not as scary as you getting married |
| 17:41.14 | sjhill | :P |
| 17:41.27 | [sorphin] | sjhill: heh, not as scary as you reproducing, lackey :P |
| 17:41.34 | sjhill | ooo, good point |
| 17:41.49 | sjhill | kergoth: pic? |
| 17:41.56 | Soopaman | can any of you guys see any problems/inefficiencies with this system setup and layout? |
| 17:44.03 | Soopaman | 1 CF/DOC with 2 partitions - a CRAMFS(or derivative) partition for the system libs and applications, and one JFS partition for the changeable files/sql base |
| 17:44.43 | kergoth | sjhill: dont have any online. need to buy a camera. heh. |
| 17:44.44 | Soopaman | # USB2 drives each with an XFS partitions for storing media oriented files |
| 17:45.07 | Soopaman | and now a unionfs to put it all together on a clean / |
| 17:46.06 | kergoth | sounds fine |
| 17:46.19 | kergoth | Soopaman: we're actually going to use unionfs to get rid of the symlinking involved in ipkg installs to alternate dests in OZ. |
| 17:46.29 | kergoth | Soopaman: we're just going to union mount the dests on /, boom, you can run everything. |
| 17:47.02 | CosmicPenguin | I'm looking forward to having persistant storage without a lot of bs |
| 17:47.21 | CosmicPenguin | or less bs, anyway |
| 17:47.26 | kergoth | the one thing i need to learn about better, is how unionfs selects which element to write to |
| 17:47.28 | CosmicPenguin | ~lart ext2 for being unable to grow |
| 17:47.29 | kergoth | when multipe lelements are rw |
| 17:47.48 | Soopaman | kergoth, have you already started? 'cause I would love to learn so my potential OE platform will work properly the first time around |
| 17:47.53 | kergoth | so if both /mtn/cf and flash are rw, which one does it write to? |
| 17:48.01 | CosmicPenguin | According to the article you linked - the order in the mount command matters |
| 17:48.02 | Soopaman | that is a good question |
| 17:48.04 | kergoth | Soopaman: someone wrote "unionroot" scripts to handle it. |
| 17:48.09 | kergoth | Soopaman: its in oe today |
| 17:48.13 | kergoth | just needs some more tender loving care |
| 17:48.21 | Soopaman | maybe it writes to one until it is full, then moves to the next |
| 17:48.39 | Soopaman | even though i don't know how it would handle large files spanned over two volumes |
| 17:48.40 | kergoth | Soopaman: scanline & co were using unionfs as their fake "raid" to avoid having to use md |
| 17:48.47 | kergoth | they mounted all their archive drives onto the one location |
| 17:48.52 | Soopaman | genious |
| 17:48.59 | kergoth | they were saying that it depends on where the path you're writing in exists |
| 17:49.15 | kergoth | so if i write to /a/b, whichever element has a /a will get it |
| 17:49.17 | Soopaman | i wrote a damn script to fake a raid, but this solution is much more efficient |
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| 17:51.03 | CosmicPenguin | I kind of like having some of my directories read-only - makes me more disiplined |
| 17:51.15 | Soopaman | heheh, that's what i'm working out too :P |
| 17:51.26 | CosmicPenguin | And not just me - it will make the people around me better too |
| 17:51.36 | CosmicPenguin | Having read-only filesystems is going to be a *huge* change for them |
| 17:51.43 | Soopaman | but since sjhill said that you can still dd ro drives , makes me kinda scared |
| 17:51.50 | kergoth | heh, the _mount_ is ro |
| 17:52.00 | kergoth | just make sure random users dont have write access to the device in /dev/ |
| 17:52.11 | Soopaman | good call |
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| 17:54.57 | Soopaman | hmm.. so i'd need atleast 3 users types on a router with persistant storage? where 1 would be root(failsafe), 2nd would be the triangle drawbridge wizard (ala sesame street) that writes data to the persistant storage, and then a normal account for the regular users? |
| 17:57.45 | CosmicPenguin | seriously |
| 17:57.53 | CosmicPenguin | you've gotta quit drinking so much coffee |
| 17:58.10 | kergoth | woah, that reminds me, i havent had coffee yet today, wtf |
| 17:58.24 | Soopaman | the only thing crazy about that sentence was my reference to the drawbridge wizard |
| 17:58.30 | Soopaman | hehheheh |
| 17:58.52 | Soopaman | but i figured you guys grew up on sesame street like me, so it wouldn't come off too crazy :P |
| 17:59.22 | CosmicPenguin | I remember the huge bird, the guy living in the trash can, and the imaginatry dinosaur |
| 17:59.29 | Soopaman | he was the guy who always wanted a triangle to eat |
| 17:59.35 | Soopaman | before he would let you cross the bridge |
| 17:59.46 | Soopaman | damnit, google will know! |
| 17:59.55 | pb_ | anybody know of any good i2c protocol analyzers? |
| 18:14.00 | sjhill | hmm |
| 18:15.00 | sjhill | prpplague, [sorphin]: if you had the choice between Cyprus, Atmel or Philips for the same type of chip, who would you choose? |
| 18:15.12 | chouimat | roftl: guy: "Clara, you want a 45 000$ wedding. Mine costed 1000$ and I had enough money left to make a big marijuana cake for every body" |
| 18:15.45 | sjhill | uh, yeah, okay |
| 18:16.19 | chouimat | sjhill: tv show ... and I imagine my parents if I did that for mine |
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| 18:25.06 | prpplague | sjhill: atmel and philips are pretty close in my book |
| 18:25.48 | prpplague | sjhill: think i'd just have to decide if i was using some other chips from the same supplier |
| 18:26.09 | sjhill | ah, good point |
| 18:26.17 | cdm | morning. |
| 18:27.26 | prpplague | sjhill: the only other thing would be to look at what chips are used in any example code i might find |
| 18:31.49 | sjhill | ok, another question |
| 18:32.19 | sjhill | i have a +12V and -12V supply, is it easier to go to 3.3V or 5V? |
| 18:32.26 | sjhill | now i have to look for those chips |
| 18:32.41 | sjhill | hmm |
| 18:33.30 | prpplague | sjhill: not sure i understand your question |
| 18:34.20 | prpplague | sjhill: you can use a 7805 to regulate to 5v |
| 18:34.36 | sjhill | ok |
| 18:34.53 | prpplague | sjhill: then if you need a 3.3v you can use the regulated 5v to do that |
| 18:35.01 | sjhill | oh |
| 18:35.08 | sjhill | so i would have to go 12->5->3.3 |
| 18:35.16 | sjhill | ok |
| 18:35.41 | prpplague | sjhill: you could go directly to the 3.3v, but you'd need a bigger power supply |
| 18:36.01 | prpplague | sjhill: T0mW probably could give you more details |
| 18:36.31 | prpplague | sjhill: but like i said, i always need 5v for something, so i always go with a 7805 first, then use it as a base for other voltages |
| 18:36.37 | sjhill | well, the +12v is coming from a backplane, so i cannot have a lot of current draw |
| 18:36.49 | sjhill | *nod* |
| 18:36.51 | prpplague | sjhill: ahh |
| 18:37.58 | prpplague | sjhill: in that case i'd probably go with a maxim switching regulator instead of a linear one |
| 18:38.44 | sjhill | difference between switching and linear? *blush* |
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| 18:39.29 | prpplague | sjhill: lets just say switching is better for digital electronics |
| 18:39.37 | sjhill | works for me |
| 18:39.58 | prpplague | sjhill: need to worry about low voltage dropout? |
| 18:40.05 | prpplague | sjhill: i.e. portable battery |
| 18:43.38 | prpplague | sjhill: just browsing some chips, still looks like the best thing to use would be something like a 7805 to drop to 5v then use a switching to go to 3.3 |
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| 18:50.00 | sjhill | prpplague: no, not portable |
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| 18:54.14 | prpplague | sjhill: http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/710 |
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| 18:57.36 | Soopaman | prpplague, do innodb table types exist in sqlite? (can't find much in the docs about it) |
| 18:59.33 | sjhill | prpplague: nice, thx |
| 18:59.45 | prpplague | Soopaman: could not say, db stuff isn't my cup of tea |
| 18:59.55 | prpplague | sjhill: np, anything i can do to help |
| 19:00.07 | prpplague | sjhill: learning some of this stuff is like pulling teeth |
| 19:00.17 | prpplague | sjhill: so sharing is the least i can do, hehe |
| 19:00.37 | prpplague | Soopaman: CosmicPenguin might know more |
| 19:02.12 | Soopaman | k |
| 19:02.29 | Soopaman | CosmicPenguin, do innodb table types exist in sqlite? (can't find much in the docs about it) |
| 19:02.52 | kergoth | what does innodb give you, anyway? |
| 19:03.02 | CosmicPenguin | hmmm... I dunno |
| 19:05.11 | Soopaman | supposedly faster indexing than MyISAM in mysql |
| 19:05.34 | [sorphin] | heh |
| 19:05.38 | kergoth | afaik sqlite3 uses its own formats. |
| 19:05.43 | [sorphin] | myisam has worked fine for me |
| 19:05.44 | kergoth | i wouldnt expect 'innodb' to make any sense in sqlite context |
| 19:06.01 | Soopaman | but from what i can remember, table types and triggers are the main differences between sqlite and mysql |
| 19:06.07 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: and this is on tables w/ a few million rows |
| 19:06.30 | Soopaman | touche |
| 19:06.48 | [sorphin] | it all really depends on the hw the db is gonna run on |
| 19:07.32 | [sorphin] | biggest box this data has been on is an Ultra 220 |
| 19:07.39 | [sorphin] | w/ 2 350mhz |
| 19:07.47 | [sorphin] | and that's not that big in reality |
| 19:08.17 | Soopaman | [sorphin], a 170mhz becis mips router |
| 19:09.10 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: and you have a guestimate of how much data? |
| 19:10.16 | Soopaman | it would vary |
| 19:10.37 | [sorphin] | well, gimme a max :P |
| 19:10.44 | [sorphin] | or an avg |
| 19:11.00 | Soopaman | because it would index the contents and metadata for the files on the storage devices |
| 19:11.15 | [sorphin] | yay, the broadcast flag is in trouble |
| 19:11.31 | Soopaman | hmm.. maybe half a million records (worst case) |
| 19:11.42 | [sorphin] | hmm |
| 19:11.47 | [sorphin] | sjhill: yo MIPS lackey |
| 19:11.51 | Soopaman | maybe more, depends if i can get 400's on these enclosures |
| 19:12.01 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: 400s? |
| 19:12.18 | Soopaman | 400gig drives |
| 19:12.22 | [sorphin] | ah |
| 19:12.26 | Soopaman | so i can union a 1.6 teradrive |
| 19:12.34 | [sorphin] | ah |
| 19:12.37 | Soopaman | unionfs... man you made my dad kergoth |
| 19:12.41 | Soopaman | err day* |
| 19:12.42 | Soopaman | heh |
| 19:12.50 | [sorphin] | ha |
| 19:13.11 | [sorphin] | yeah, kergoth built your dad from code |
| 19:13.15 | [sorphin] | :P |
| 19:13.48 | Soopaman | heheh |
| 19:14.23 | Soopaman | heh, from what I gather, after his ground breaking VD-date, anything is possible :P |
| 19:14.56 | [sorphin] | heh |
| 19:15.01 | CosmicPenguin | I see.... |
| 19:17.10 | CosmicPenguin | CREATE attempts to create files in the highest-priority branch where the parent directory exists. |
| 19:17.24 | CosmicPenguin | That would answer the multiple rw filesystems in unionfs question, I think |
| 19:17.36 | kergoth | hmm |
| 19:18.05 | kergoth | that could cause odd consequences with the plan to use unionfs for ipkg installs |
| 19:18.26 | kergoth | ah, no it wouldnt, if the dir doesnt exist, the untar would create it on the highest priority branch |
| 19:18.29 | kergoth | cool |
| 19:20.02 | kergoth | eh, i was right the first time. if the directory exists on a lower priority mount, but not the highest priority |
| 19:20.11 | kergoth | your ipkg installed files would end up distributed across your branches |
| 19:20.14 | kergoth | messy |
| 19:20.36 | kergoth | so ipkg needs to do the install to the real mountpoint for the fs you want it on |
| 19:20.41 | kergoth | and just be visable through the union |
| 19:22.38 | CosmicPenguin | yeah - that is messy |
| 19:22.45 | kergoth | it makes sense though |
| 19:22.52 | kergoth | ipkg's dests will be the /media/ paths |
| 19:22.57 | kergoth | and you can run everything via the union |
| 19:23.00 | kergoth | pretty clean |
| 19:23.13 | kergoth | someone should play with oe producing livecds again |
| 19:23.15 | kergoth | :0 |
| 19:24.55 | CosmicPenguin | did we ever get isolinux working? |
| 19:25.21 | CosmicPenguin | I've got syslinux playing nice, and its way more complicated then isolinux |
| 19:25.31 | kergoth | cool |
| 19:25.56 | CosmicPenguin | Unfortunately, we can't use the new versions, becuase they sort of mandate that you use syslinux for the install |
| 19:26.12 | CosmicPenguin | before, we sort of skirted the issue by lovingly emulating syslinux, but without the mtools scaryiness |
| 19:26.24 | kergoth | ahh |
| 19:26.44 | CosmicPenguin | Actually, what I really want to get working is extlinux |
| 19:26.53 | kergoth | whats extlinux? |
| 19:27.01 | CosmicPenguin | syslinux for ext2 basically |
| 19:27.09 | kergoth | ah, neat |
| 19:27.20 | CosmicPenguin | i want to bring in the mke2fs stuff so that you can run it on an binary file |
| 19:27.29 | CosmicPenguin | s/mke2fs/genext2fs/ |
| 19:28.29 | CosmicPenguin | That is until I can bother someone here to make me a bootloader that can find the frickin' kernel on its own |
| 19:28.39 | CosmicPenguin | I'm lookin' at you, BIOS team! |
| 19:32.28 | sjhill | [sorphin]: whadda' ya' want putz |
| 19:32.43 | [sorphin] | sjhill: was just seeing if you'd heard of that MIPS taht Soopaman's using |
| 19:32.54 | CosmicPenguin | hmmm... |
| 19:33.19 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: yeah, as I read on, it seems that multiple read/write doesn't seem to work like I thought it did |
| 19:33.31 | sjhill | i have [sorphin] becis |
| 19:33.34 | sjhill | no |
| 19:33.38 | sjhill | grrr |
| 19:33.48 | sjhill | cut&paste went awrrry....gah |
| 19:34.01 | sjhill | no, i am not familiar with becis |
| 19:34.08 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: there could almost certainly be bugs, so keep an eye out. unionfs is still pretty new |
| 19:34.17 | [sorphin] | nod |
| 19:34.34 | [sorphin] | sjhill: well, being the mips monkey, you think a mips of that speed would handle that ok? |
| 19:35.46 | sjhill | hope you got a lot of ram |
| 19:35.56 | sjhill | 1/2 million records stuff, right? |
| 19:36.20 | [sorphin] | yes |
| 19:36.57 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: the way around that is to set the lower stuff to ro if you add a new rw |
| 19:37.23 | CosmicPenguin | but to me, its probably just better to either union mount to ramfs *or* to persistant storage, not both |
| 19:37.33 | CosmicPenguin | makes the scripts somewhat less ugly though |
| 19:38.56 | sjhill | only 175MHz makes me nervous |
| 19:39.03 | sjhill | any chance to go higher? |
| 19:39.07 | sjhill | prob' not |
| 19:40.16 | [sorphin] | sjhill: well, the tivo uses a damn 200mhz MIPS (least the series2 i had did), and it chugged along |
| 19:41.29 | cdm | is it a real MIPS or a nasty VR MIPS? |
| 19:41.40 | sjhill | heh, good point |
| 19:42.01 | sjhill | VR == Satan's play toy |
| 19:45.43 | CosmicPenguin | no crap |
| 19:52.31 | [sorphin] | sjhill: the tivo one? it's the same as the DCT5k, the 5432 |
| 19:53.59 | sjhill | 5432 was okay, but it still had some WAR hardware bugs |
| 19:54.09 | [sorphin] | nod |
| 19:54.37 | kergoth | god i hate waiting on glibc compiles. |
| 19:54.51 | [sorphin] | kergoth: then don't compile on a P75 :P |
| 19:54.52 | cdm | glibc is evil. |
| 19:55.16 | [sorphin] | cdm: that putty knife bit is really sad btw (grabbed the svc manual pdf for the mini) |
| 19:55.23 | kergoth | heh |
| 19:56.00 | kergoth | p4 3.0GHz |
| 19:56.50 | [sorphin] | w/ HT turned on, and the compiler/make using the "2 cpus" ? |
| 19:57.14 | kergoth | yep |
| 19:57.28 | kergoth | make -j4 |
| 19:57.33 | kergoth | glibc is just fucking slow |
| 19:57.37 | [sorphin] | k |
| 19:57.47 | kergoth | there we are, its staging now |
| 19:59.56 | CosmicPenguin | What did pb_ say - the staging was O(log n) or something like that? |
| 20:08.48 | Soopaman | [sorphin], just saw the backlog |
| 20:08.50 | Soopaman | Processor: MIPS 170MHz Brecis 2006 CPU |
| 20:08.50 | Soopaman | •Memory: 8MB Flash, 32MB SDRAM |
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| 20:08.59 | Soopaman | is what i am working with |
| 20:09.06 | kergoth | whee, and now glibc is packaging |
| 20:09.30 | Soopaman | i'll be storing a bunch of media files, which i'll assume with have 3 records per file |
| 20:09.59 | Soopaman | so in the 540gigs i'm playing with, i'll assume they'll be around 100 thousand files |
| 20:10.34 | Soopaman | well 120k+ is my fuzzy math works out, times 3 |
| 20:10.48 | Soopaman | so approximate 330k records |
| 20:11.22 | Soopaman | x 3.5 if i ever my hands on 4 400gig drives |
| 20:16.07 | [sorphin] | Soopaman: heh |
| 20:18.50 | Soopaman | although, if i can figure out how to offset a drive's db data onto the actual drive, then we'd be cooking with fire |
| 20:19.38 | Soopaman | convection ovens |
| 20:19.45 | Soopaman | wave of the future |
| 20:20.21 | sjhill | Soopaman: dude, you are so going to bring that processor to its knees |
| 20:20.33 | sjhill | Mein liben! |
| 20:21.04 | prpplague | anyone used jelie ? |
| 20:21.14 | kergoth | you know, it really bugs me that i lost my gpg keys, again |
| 20:21.21 | Soopaman | sjhill, hmm.. then what max record count should i stay under |
| 20:21.21 | kergoth | and they have no expiration date |
| 20:21.28 | prpplague | doh |
| 20:24.37 | prpplague | ~seen nct |
| 20:24.40 | ibot | nct <~nct@adsl-188-177-fixip.tiscali.ch> was last seen on IRC in channel #kde, 81d 8h 16m 21s ago, saying: 'canllaith :-)'. |
| 20:24.52 | prpplague | ~seen nct[work] |
| 20:24.53 | ibot | i haven't seen 'nct[work]', prpplague |
| 20:25.23 | CosmicPenguin | andersee: you here? |
| 20:25.31 | kergoth | how long do you guys set your pgp/gpg key experiations for? |
| 20:25.36 | kergoth | a year? two? |
| 20:26.25 | andersee | CosmicPenguin: nope |
| 20:26.34 | andersee | CosmicPenguin: what can I do for you? |
| 20:27.08 | CosmicPenguin | andersee: would something like this work in busybox ash: |
| 20:27.12 | CosmicPenguin | andersee: if [[ $(type -t preup) == function ]]; then |
| 20:29.13 | Soopaman | speaking of which.. |
| 20:29.18 | Soopaman | ~seen mallum |
| 20:29.19 | ibot | mallum <~mallum@host81-155-189-183.range81-155.btcentralplus.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #gpe, 1h 33m 44s ago, saying: ';)'. |
| 20:29.49 | andersee | CosmicPenguin: well, it doesn't know "[[" |
| 20:30.27 | CosmicPenguin | mkay |
| 20:30.36 | andersee | in fact, it doesn't know "[" either -- just there is a [ symlink to test |
| 20:30.54 | CosmicPenguin | but can I test if a function exists or not? |
| 20:30.56 | CosmicPenguin | Thats the big question |
| 20:31.24 | Soopaman | make a constructor for your function? |
| 20:31.40 | Soopaman | or something that returns true if it exists? |
| 20:36.42 | andersee | CosmicPenguin: I suppose it should work |
| 20:36.45 | andersee | $ sudo chroot ./root_fs /bin/busybox ash |
| 20:36.45 | andersee | BusyBox v1.00 (2005.02.18-22:20+0000) Built-in shell (ash) |
| 20:36.45 | andersee | Enter 'help' for a list of built-in commands. |
| 20:36.45 | andersee | [root@dillweed /]# preup () { |
| 20:36.45 | andersee | > echo "this is the preup function" |
| 20:36.46 | andersee | > } |
| 20:36.48 | andersee | [root@dillweed /]# echo $(type preup) |
| 20:36.50 | andersee | preup is a shell function |
| 20:41.48 | CosmicPenguin | nice |
| 20:42.14 | CosmicPenguin | I want to have a /etc/defaults/mounts function that details how to create and mount various types, ext2, nfs, etc... |
| 20:42.29 | CosmicPenguin | it would be nice to call mount-$(TYPE) instead of having a case function |
| 20:42.51 | CosmicPenguin | Well, actually, the mount is pretty standard |
| 20:42.55 | CosmicPenguin | but the create is different |
| 20:42.56 | kergoth | whats wrong with mount -t? |
| 20:42.57 | kergoth | heh |
| 20:42.58 | CosmicPenguin | create even |
| 21:27.00 | chouimat | [sorphin]: hehe |
| 21:27.06 | fishhead | sorphin |
| 21:27.09 | fishhead | do you really think I care |
| 21:27.14 | fishhead | with all this shit going on right now ? |
| 21:27.24 | [sorphin] | fishhead: do you realy think anyone here cares what you did to screw up at some job? |
| 21:27.38 | fishhead | I did a global /me I really didn't think about every channel |
| 21:27.56 | chouimat | feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew I read who instead of what .... |
| 21:28.04 | fishhead | yeah I would fix your problem sorphin |
| 21:28.11 | fishhead | but I don't have a supply of the aids virus |
| 21:28.19 | [sorphin] | chouimat: you need to lay off the happy stuff :P |
| 21:28.56 | [sorphin] | ~lart acrobat for not allowing me to specifiy which pages to print |
| 21:29.04 | chouimat | [sorphin]: i know ... but i got some monday as a birthday gift ... free happy stuff ;) |
| 21:29.29 | cdm | [sorphin]: you mean it only allows you to give a page range? |
| 21:29.50 | fishhead | tell sorpFAG |
| 21:29.57 | fishhead | I have a solution for him if he uses windows |
| 21:30.34 | [sorphin] | cdm: correct, where as i wanna do pages: 1,155,2,154, etc |
| 21:30.42 | cdm | [sorphin]: ah. |
| 21:30.43 | [sorphin] | to print this stupid mac mini svc manual in a book format |
| 21:30.58 | cdm | you can do N-up and odd/even printing though. |
| 21:31.00 | [sorphin] | word can do that, seems adobe thinks they can, but realy can't |
| 21:31.18 | cdm | ahhh..that is a neat idea. |
| 21:31.50 | [sorphin] | cdm: tried to do that w/ an SBC manual i had in word, but they had the damn paper size embedded in the doc as 5 1/2xwhatever |
| 21:32.11 | [sorphin] | seeing as this is 155 pages |
| 21:32.25 | CosmicPenguin | That is a neat idea |
| 21:32.27 | [sorphin] | the less i have to print, the better, and a book form would be easier to handle |
| 21:32.55 | [sorphin] | stupid pdf |
| 21:33.15 | [sorphin] | CosmicPenguin: that's not the prob |
| 21:33.20 | chouimat | duplex 4 |
| 21:33.24 | [sorphin] | that's what i'll be doing |
| 21:33.28 | [sorphin] | the problem is |
| 21:33.33 | [sorphin] | the order i need the pages done |
| 21:33.36 | [sorphin] | i.e. |
| 21:33.47 | CosmicPenguin | [sorphin]: right - you want to staple in the middle, basically |
| 21:33.49 | [sorphin] | page 2 is on the same page as page 155 |
| 21:33.52 | [sorphin] | yeah |
| 21:34.13 | CosmicPenguin | odd that lpr can't handle that - it seems like it would a popular option |
| 21:34.27 | [sorphin] | it's acrobat reader |
| 21:34.30 | [sorphin] | that won't do it |
| 21:34.33 | [sorphin] | it's not even an option |
| 21:34.36 | CosmicPenguin | but can't you print with lpr with acroread? |
| 21:34.45 | CosmicPenguin | or is this doze? |
| 21:34.48 | [sorphin] | doze |
| 21:34.53 | [sorphin] | unfortunately |
| 21:34.54 | CosmicPenguin | crap |
| 21:34.59 | [sorphin] | corp laptop |
| 21:35.37 | [sorphin] | dunno how it'll look tho |
| 21:35.41 | T0mW | I tell 'em the option will be out with Longhorn |
| 21:35.42 | [sorphin] | (this is color stuff) |
| 21:36.00 | [sorphin] | ~lart T0mW for mentioning the steer up his rear |
| 21:36.18 | T0mW | only that Longhorn will be two more years away |
| 21:36.52 | CosmicPenguin | Longhorn *beta* |
| 21:36.53 | CosmicPenguin | :) |
| 21:36.56 | [sorphin] | well, if it weren't for the fact that the email here is exchange (and while i can GET mail via pop/imap) |
| 21:36.57 | [sorphin] | i can't send |
| 21:37.07 | CosmicPenguin | seesh |
| 21:37.09 | CosmicPenguin | thats horrible |
| 21:37.15 | [sorphin] | *and* the tickets we have to deal w/ are remedy (aka, windows) |
| 21:37.19 | CosmicPenguin | and you work for a telecommunications company? |
| 21:37.22 | chouimat | [sorphin]: http://multivalent.sourceforge.net/Tools/ <---- look at the impose tool |
| 21:37.27 | [sorphin] | (till they have a web remedy out) |
| 21:37.55 | [sorphin] | CosmicPenguin: the IT dept/upper management isn't real bright, but that has nothing to do w/ the telecom side of things |
| 21:37.57 | [sorphin] | just the IT |
| 21:38.02 | [sorphin] | chouimat: k |
| 21:38.20 | CosmicPenguin | true that - but still, you would think that some of the industry best pratices woud rub off |
| 21:38.21 | T0mW | Well, there are just some things, even I, admit that cannot be done... |
| 21:38.55 | [sorphin] | CosmicPenguin: well, there are people here that have linux boxes (i'd have one if i could dig up a spare box around here), and all production servers (not corporate) are solaris |
| 21:38.55 | T0mW | how about buying the book? huh? |
| 21:39.01 | [sorphin] | T0mW: uhh.. |
| 21:39.06 | T0mW | heh |
| 21:39.07 | [sorphin] | this isn't a book you can buy :P |
| 21:39.09 | CosmicPenguin | [sorphin]: sounds like us |
| 21:39.10 | [sorphin] | gramps |
| 21:39.19 | chouimat | [sorphin]: like your mac mini? |
| 21:39.19 | [sorphin] | CosmicPenguin: ya |
| 21:39.25 | CosmicPenguin | [sorphin]: all of our silicon guys use solaris |
| 21:39.34 | [sorphin] | chouimat: haven't evne had the time to fire it up yet :( |
| 21:39.42 | [sorphin] | chouimat: plus need a usb keyboard/mouse |
| 21:39.54 | T0mW | yeah, enough money you can. You can take to the print shop and they'll do it for you, or the bookbindery |
| 21:40.02 | [sorphin] | i'm all ready to swap the mem and do the "overclock" mod |
| 21:40.09 | chouimat | ok back to job hunting |
| 21:40.20 | CosmicPenguin | [sorphin]: there you go - take it to Kinkos.. :) |
| 21:40.26 | [sorphin] | T0mW: uh.. i'm sure walking in w/ an apple svc manual in pdf format will realy make them love me :P |
| 21:41.06 | CosmicPenguin | oh, like the idiots at kinkos would even understand |
| 21:41.20 | [sorphin] | well, they'd have to understand enough to print it right |
| 21:41.30 | T0mW | Yoooou just never know what a printer can do unless ask a printer to do. |
| 21:41.33 | CosmicPenguin | And thats the million dollar trick |
| 21:42.06 | T0mW | fuck Kinkos, that's not a printer, just a bunch of refuges from Radio Shack |
| 21:42.13 | [sorphin] | 2 pages per side, 2 sides |
| 21:42.18 | [sorphin] | 155 pages |
| 21:42.42 | [sorphin] | uhhh |
| 22:03.55 | *** join/#elinux file (~file@mctn1-8179.nb.aliant.net) |
| 22:03.55 | *** mode/#elinux [+v file] by ChanServ |
| 22:08.47 | *** join/#elinux darkschneider (~gab@81-208-36-80.fastres.net) |
| 22:18.14 | [sorphin] | eek! it's FILE |
| 22:24.36 | file | yessssss I'll notice |
| 22:25.48 | CosmicPenguin | file: yo |
| 22:27.51 | file | waddup |
| 22:29.37 | CosmicPenguin | just playin' with unionfs |
| 22:30.45 | file | nifty |
| 22:32.36 | CosmicPenguin | Thats what I said |
| 22:32.37 | CosmicPenguin | :) |
| 22:37.50 | [sorphin] | prpplague: face it hillbilly, you won't be focused till you're in barbados ;) |
| 22:38.04 | prpplague | hehe |
| 22:38.08 | prpplague | yea |
| 22:43.27 | CosmicPenguin | nuts |
| 22:43.34 | CosmicPenguin | clean up on aisle #elinux |
| 22:46.30 | [sorphin] | (in pieces) |
| 22:46.38 | [sorphin] | or fragments rather |
| 22:46.46 | [sorphin] | he's a fragmented file |
| 22:49.24 | file | yup |
| 22:49.44 | *** join/#elinux George (george@gwright.developer.kde) |
| 22:54.36 | *** join/#elinux Laibsch (~leggewie@G15c9.g.pppool.de) |
| 23:01.45 | CosmicPenguin | hmm... type works, but type -t doesn't |
| 23:04.38 | file | brb - need to downgrade drivers |
| 23:17.11 | *** join/#elinux file (~file@mctn1-8179.nb.aliant.net) |
| 23:17.11 | *** mode/#elinux [+v file] by ChanServ |
| 23:17.47 | file | much better |
| 23:18.31 | CosmicPenguin | did you guys hear something? |
| 23:18.49 | prpplague | not me |
| 23:22.24 | *** join/#elinux THeli (~Total@GO.HELI.RI.CMU.EDU) |
| 23:22.35 | file | so waddup |
| 23:28.51 | [sorphin] | cya |
| 23:38.35 | *** join/#elinux chouimat (~dieu@r2351064.cidc.net) |
| 23:56.55 | CosmicPenguin | hey omap dudes |
| 23:57.07 | CosmicPenguin | Does your RTC really have mulitple wake up alarms? |
| 23:57.28 | file | ooh are you jealous? |
| 23:57.55 | CosmicPenguin | I'm trying to figure out why it matters |
| 23:58.03 | CosmicPenguin | s/why it matters/why they are useful/ |
| 23:58.10 | CosmicPenguin | I mean time is linear right? |
| 23:58.19 | CosmicPenguin | one event is bound to happen before the other |
| 23:58.22 | file | maybe, maybe not |
