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| 00:59.11 | Russ | having fun? |
| 01:00.43 | sjhill | with xchat? no....!%$$@# piece of crap |
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| 01:12.36 | Russ | same version.... |
| 01:12.58 | Russ | gentoo gcc? "gcc -O3 -munspoortedarchoption" etc? |
| 01:21.43 | sorphin | heh |
| 01:21.51 | sorphin | noticed gentoo got forked ;p |
| 01:23.19 | sjhill | yeah, i usually like getting forked |
| 01:24.28 | jacques | lol |
| 01:24.40 | sorphin | always knew he was full of hot air ;) |
| 01:24.42 | sjhill | *squeek* *squeek* |
| 01:26.17 | sorphin | sjhill: "real men use BitchX" *g* |
| 01:33.42 | sjhill | sorphin: "studs use xchat though" |
| 01:34.11 | jacques | i use xchat... badly |
| 01:35.56 | jacques | wow I see a little has been added to the dtc5000 page |
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| 01:52.04 | sorphin | jacques: since when? |
| 01:54.40 | jacques | looks like an update on june 25th |
| 01:55.01 | sorphin | yeah, i see the new date, but nothing 'new' to me there |
| 01:55.14 | jacques | oh, how long has the stuff about tim's rom been there? |
| 01:55.24 | jacques | and where is tim's rom? |
| 01:56.05 | jacques | anyone jtagged theirs yet? anyone been brave enough to hook it to cable and see what downloads? |
| 01:56.06 | sorphin | i have *a* rom, i dunno bout tims |
| 01:56.16 | sorphin | i've hooked it to cable, didn't do squat here |
| 01:56.28 | jacques | ah, who is your provider? |
| 01:56.34 | sorphin | charter |
| 01:56.40 | sorphin | but a) i'm on analog cable |
| 01:56.49 | sorphin | and b) it prolly requires the headend to know it exists |
| 01:56.54 | jacques | i have comcast (used to be at&t) |
| 01:57.13 | sorphin | nod |
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| 04:18.10 | TomW | <sigh> |
| 04:19.42 | TomW | so, the customer asks me why I am charging him a 50% premium to write software in 8 days for something that he has no documentation for... Like I have to reverse engineer the thing while I write the code. |
| 04:19.45 | TomW | go figure |
| 04:20.43 | MonMotha | TomW: people don't seem to understand the issues with big time crunches |
| 04:20.58 | TomW | I asked him if it was the dollar amount that he had a problem with, or that the work to be performed just didn't justify that dollar amount. |
| 04:21.09 | MonMotha | I've been asked to write firewall rulesets in 2 hours, glue an LCD to a parallel port (including the physical labor and coding the custom software) in 1 day |
| 04:21.35 | TomW | IMO, he looked at the bottom line and said "I'm not paying Tom $18K to do something". |
| 04:22.01 | MonMotha | by all means diable |
| 04:22.07 | MonMotha | but with no advance notification, it represents a scheduling issue |
| 04:22.32 | MonMotha | TomW: well, any time rev engineering is required, the work required has the potential to go up a LOT |
| 04:22.39 | TomW | fsck 'em, I'll let him get someone else to meet his deadlines and I'll work at KFC, they are offering $34K to start. |
| 04:22.52 | TomW | MonMotha: yeah, btdt |
| 04:23.40 | MonMotha | btdt? |
| 04:24.06 | TomW | a 60 day delivery would have been fine, a 30 day delivery would have forced me to not take time off over the next 30 days, an 8 day delivery totally blows my schedule for July apart. |
| 04:24.15 | TomW | MonMotha: Been There, Done That |
| 04:24.43 | TomW | MonMotha: ... with the reverse engineering: btdt |
| 04:25.37 | TomW | Ah well, life is interesting, isn't it? :) |
| 04:25.49 | MonMotha | ah |
| 04:25.52 | MonMotha | yes, certainly |
| 04:27.47 | TomW | I have a POS manufactuerer who wants to look at a system I put together as a possible solution to problems thay have been having, a T1 && Gateway && Firewall to install, a file server to replace / swapover, VMware windoze installation randomly crashing, ... |
| 04:28.06 | TomW | but, I can drop everything to do "your" work. |
| 04:28.13 | MonMotha | of course |
| 04:28.31 | TomW | MonMotha: what do you do for your "daily bread"? |
| 04:28.44 | MonMotha | most of my clients know I hold other jobs, but every once in a while I get a "this needs to be done by tonight" thing |
| 04:28.51 | MonMotha | I usually just quadrouple my fee and do it |
| 04:29.03 | TomW | hmm, I only double it.. |
| 04:29.11 | MonMotha | TomW: freelance consulting, and I work for a consulting company as well (yes, I have a VERY leinent boss regarding non-compete :) |
| 04:29.18 | MonMotha | TomW: I'm cheap normally :) |
| 04:29.27 | MonMotha | (I have one client getting on-site IT services at $10/hr!) |
| 04:39.49 | jacques | d'oh! |
| 04:40.01 | TomW | der |
| 04:40.25 | jacques | one time i got $3k for 2 days |
| 04:40.48 | TomW | jacques: I tried very hard to not be condescending when I spelled it out to him, but.. |
| 04:41.14 | jacques | some ppl don't get it |
| 04:41.39 | TomW | > Seriously Tom, can you please explain why I am looking at such a high |
| 04:41.39 | TomW | > amount, as compared to other similar projects done in the past. |
| 04:41.39 | TomW | I am quite surprised that you have asked this in light of recent |
| 04:41.39 | TomW | telephone and email over the past few weeks. In what way is this |
| 04:41.39 | TomW | project similar to what I have done before? Yes, it is black, has an |
| 04:41.40 | TomW | LCD, has addressable detectors and push buttons (mono panel). Well |
| 04:41.42 | TomW | then, let's examine the documentation and see what is so different about |
| 04:41.44 | TomW | this particular FACP as compared to the others... |
| 04:41.46 | TomW | Oh! Wait! There _is_ _no_ documentation... :-( |
| 04:42.03 | jacques | arg |
| 04:42.05 | TomW | heh |
| 04:42.07 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 04:42.10 | jacques | sigh |
| 04:42.21 | TomW | I couldn't help myself, I just had to say that to him. |
| 04:43.20 | MonMotha | TomW: well, it's got the same case color as the rest, and they all have LCDs |
| 04:43.26 | MonMotha | they must be the similar, right? |
| 04:43.31 | TomW | jacques: I am tired of his dickering over the bottom line cost. |
| 04:44.25 | jacques | that's how I found it was dealing with small business owners - they have little money so dicker over every dime |
| 04:44.49 | TomW | he is going to take that one program I create and use it on 14 controllers, each costing the customer $3k per, and, the end-custoemr is going to get charged $15K for the "custom program development". |
| 04:45.22 | TomW | that is for that one job, he can then resell the software over the next few years to other end-customers. |
| 04:45.42 | jacques | think he is trying to take advantage of you this time or just doesnt know what he's asking? |
| 04:45.51 | MonMotha | so offer to drop the price in return for 10% royalties...see how he likes that :) |
| 04:46.34 | jacques | kfc is offering $34k??? |
| 04:46.44 | TomW | Ok, he is correct, I should only charge him $40/hr * 100 estimated manhours at a flat rate. irregardless of the fact that it may take another 50..100hrs to cleanup the code when all is said & done. |
| 04:46.54 | TomW | jacques: yeah, for managers. |
| 04:47.26 | jacques | mmmm kfc - tho I probably wouldnt like it if i worked there |
| 04:47.55 | TomW | MonMotha: heh, he'll have a fit. I once suggested that I sell the software direct to his customer's and alleviate him of the burden of negotiating with them, he didn't like that idea! |
| 04:48.07 | jacques | lol |
| 04:48.18 | TomW | jacques: 4 days a week, 10 hours per day... |
| 04:48.42 | TomW | jacques: you're on salary, so it could be 5 days a week sometimes. |
| 04:49.07 | jacques | i know why im so tired - I havent gotten my bi-weekly friday off in a while |
| 04:49.15 | TomW | heh |
| 04:49.17 | jacques | since the other guy is in france |
| 04:49.31 | jacques | so I've been oncall for like 3 weeks straight |
| 04:49.33 | TomW | you know that he is taking time off |
| 04:49.48 | MonMotha | my town is screwed up |
| 04:49.54 | MonMotha | the local access channel is scrambled |
| 04:49.58 | jacques | LOL |
| 04:50.00 | jacques | wtf? |
| 04:50.06 | TomW | ... spreading "American good-will" |
| 04:50.15 | jacques | for some reason I find that hilarious |
| 04:50.34 | TomW | MonMotha: where do you live? |
| 04:50.37 | jacques | TomW: oh about 75% of this company is French ppl - he's from there |
| 04:50.58 | MonMotha | TomW: just north of indianapolis |
| 04:51.06 | jacques | he's probaly telling them what a crazy country this is |
| 04:51.46 | TomW | hmm, been there, strange area, too much culture-shock for me: lotta Democrats in Indianapolis.. |
| 04:52.20 | MonMotha | TomW: yes, though just north of indy if the entire local government isn't republican, something's probably amiss |
| 04:52.22 | TomW | MonMotha: huge farming operations in that state! |
| 04:52.30 | MonMotha | TomW: yup, though not where I live |
| 04:52.50 | MonMotha | indianapolis is a fairly large city...certainly no new york, chicago, atlana, LA, etc. tho |
| 04:53.09 | TomW | I liked it though, very homey and clean |
| 04:53.38 | TomW | not at all like Detroit |
| 04:53.47 | MonMotha | yeah, that is the advantage of a smaller large city :) |
| 04:54.05 | jacques | ah looks like it will cool down next week - i cant wait |
| 04:54.11 | MonMotha | yes, very nice |
| 04:54.16 | jacques | it was > 90 degrees in my house today |
| 04:54.17 | MonMotha | we've been upper 80s/90+ recently |
| 04:54.23 | TomW | I Michigan, the people drive fast so they can out run the bullets fired in downtown Detroit. |
| 04:54.41 | TomW | s/I Michigan/In Michigan/ |
| 04:54.41 | jacques | i kept waiking u pevery half hour sweating |
| 04:54.41 | MonMotha | heh |
| 04:55.01 | MonMotha | crime in indianapolis isn't too bad |
| 04:55.05 | jacques | TomW: not many cars can outrun a bullet :-) |
| 04:55.08 | MonMotha | oh, and DO NOT SPEED where I live :) |
| 04:55.19 | MonMotha | you *will* get ticketed for anything more than 5 over |
| 04:55.24 | TomW | jacques: not here, I had the airconditioner cranked up and it was only 75 degrees at the hottest. |
| 04:55.40 | jacques | heh that reminds me of movies that show jets outrunning missiles |
| 04:55.50 | TomW | MonMotha: heh, not in PA, it is a requirement to drive 10+ over the limit. |
| 04:55.52 | jacques | my poor machines :-( |
| 04:56.07 | MonMotha | TomW: well, it's only in this city (called "Carmel") |
| 04:56.17 | MonMotha | TomW: if you're not doing 10 over on 465, you'll be run down |
| 04:56.25 | MonMotha | I do 10 over and am usually the slowest person on the road |
| 04:56.26 | TomW | MonMotha: Speed limit on PA highways is 55mph, the cops mess with you if you go over 70. |
| 04:56.32 | MonMotha | same here |
| 04:57.43 | TomW | I like it here in PA, I need mountains (large hills) around me to feel comfortable. Flat land gives me the 'willies'. |
| 04:58.00 | MonMotha | ah, then don't go to central/northern indiana |
| 04:58.04 | MonMotha | southern indiana has hills tho |
| 04:58.15 | MonMotha | at times semi-large |
| 04:58.15 | TomW | average elevation around here is 1400 ft |
| 04:58.40 | TomW | well, maybe 1000ft, sorry |
| 04:59.38 | TomW | I recall driving trough southern NJ and seeing a street named "Hill Street", it was only a 100 or so feet high. |
| 04:59.46 | TomW | heh |
| 04:59.54 | TomW | matter of perspective? |
| 05:00.14 | MonMotha | I guess |
| 05:00.25 | MonMotha | funny tho, we have a street called "tulane rd." (named after the university) |
| 05:00.41 | MonMotha | I want that street to someday be a major 6 lane highway |
| 05:00.47 | jacques | lol |
| 05:00.49 | MonMotha | tulane road has 6 lanes? :) |
| 05:01.13 | TomW | heh |
| 05:02.05 | TomW | I don't think that we have any streets around here called "Hill Street", it is just accepted that everything seems to be on a hill. |
| 05:02.17 | MonMotha | heh |
| 05:02.27 | MonMotha | TomW: one nice thign about indianapolis is that it's easy to navigate |
| 05:02.29 | MonMotha | just a grid |
| 05:02.40 | MonMotha | I was in cambridge and every street is an angled street, just at different angles :) |
| 05:02.43 | TomW | They have to flatten them down to build the Home Depot, Walmart, etc. |
| 05:02.54 | MonMotha | two north-south streets are guaranteed to intersect at some point in that city :) |
| 05:03.51 | TomW | MonMotha: yeah, they actually planned the city, didn't they? We have a lot of pre-automobile towns, like Bethlemhem where the streets were laid out for horse and carriage. |
| 05:04.08 | MonMotha | TomW: yeah, indianapolis is actually based off the same city plans as wash. DC |
| 05:04.17 | MonMotha | I live off 136th street :) |
| 05:04.33 | MonMotha | (which is actually NOT in indianapolis, even though indianapolis is the whole of marion county) |
| 05:04.48 | TomW | I need chaos, a grid would drive my sense of perfection to extreme |
| 05:04.53 | MonMotha | heh |
| 05:04.57 | MonMotha | well, there's angled streets still |
| 05:05.03 | MonMotha | though they're mostly at perfect angles |
| 05:05.10 | TomW | lol |
| 05:05.17 | MonMotha | we do have the intersection of Meridian St. and Meridian St. tho :) |
| 05:05.50 | TomW | hmm, my road is called "Rim Rock Drive" at one end and at the other it is "Rimrock Drive".. |
| 05:05.58 | MonMotha | heh |
| 05:06.18 | MonMotha | well, 136th street is also known as "Smokey Row Road" and the two are used interchangably, but never are both specified |
| 05:06.23 | TomW | two different townships, guess they couldn't agree on something. |
| 05:06.35 | MonMotha | and 136th st. is actually more useful since it tells you where the street is in the n-s direction! |
| 05:06.57 | MonMotha | oh, Towne Rd. in hamilton county, Township Line Rd. in marion (indianapolis) |
| 05:07.21 | TomW | Then there are the towns of Intercourse and Virgin, PA. They are within 5 miles of each other... |
| 05:07.30 | MonMotha | hah |
| 05:07.32 | TomW | heh |
| 05:07.36 | TomW | dunno |
| 05:08.05 | MonMotha | beat this tho |
| 05:08.13 | MonMotha | there's a small town called "Rockville" |
| 05:08.18 | MonMotha | their HS's team name? the Rocks |
| 05:08.23 | TomW | Winnemucka, NV |
| 05:08.34 | TomW | where the heck did they come up with that name? |
| 05:08.41 | MonMotha | and Speedway IN (the indianapolis motor speedway area of indianapolis, you've surely heard of that :) |
| 05:08.48 | MonMotha | their HS's team name is the "spark plugs" |
| 05:08.51 | TomW | heh |
| 05:08.53 | MonMotha | dunno |
| 05:09.08 | MonMotha | oh, and the Frankfurt Frankfurters |
| 05:09.16 | MonMotha | or is the the hot dogs, can't remember |
| 05:09.46 | TomW | MonMotha: you have to be carefull naming teams, recall the RedSkins ? |
| 05:10.00 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 05:10.11 | TomW | derogatory to native americans. |
| 05:10.13 | MonMotha | my high school's team name was very original |
| 05:10.17 | MonMotha | we were the "Braves" |
| 05:10.26 | TomW | hey! so were we! |
| 05:10.30 | MonMotha | heh |
| 05:10.32 | MonMotha | surprise, surprise |
| 05:10.47 | MonMotha | my college's team name is the "Fighting Engineers" |
| 05:10.50 | TomW | Newton, New Jersey: the Braves, the school colors where Maroon & White. |
| 05:10.55 | MonMotha | and their mascot is an Elephant :) |
| 05:10.58 | TomW | heh |
| 05:11.01 | MonMotha | we were maroon and gold |
| 05:11.05 | TomW | wow! |
| 05:12.12 | TomW | hmm, wonder if I'll have to reduce the cost of that project from $18K down to $16K to keep that guy happy? |
| 05:12.53 | TomW | I was going to charge him $16K but decided to charge him more and see if he would go for it, then I could let him chew me down to $16K. |
| 05:13.09 | TomW | hee hee |
| 05:14.44 | TomW | someone once told me that the way that you find out what the perceived value of your work is to wait until you don't need the money. Then, start charging higher for your work. If they go for it, you still don't know your value. When you start to lose some work, then you know what you are worth. |
| 05:16.15 | TomW | I need to buy another used oscilloscope, plus get some PCBs run off, etc, etc. |
| 05:16.57 | TomW | I'm not trying to get that money with a single job, just that I could afford not to do this job right now. |
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| 10:40.48 | paq_ | hi mallum |
| 10:42.19 | mallum | hey paq_ |
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