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| 01:10.43 | CyberManifest | Installing multiple packages with a given prefix is with prefix* correct? As in sudo apt install libcairo* ? |
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| 02:12.49 | JordiGH | What's up with lvmetad apparently not in buster? |
| 02:14.17 | JordiGH | It's there in stretch: https://packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/lvm2/filelist |
| 02:14.36 | JordiGH | But not in buster? https://packages.debian.org/buster/amd64/lvm2/filelist |
| 02:14.44 | sney | #917159 maybe? |
| 02:14.46 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/917159 in lvm2 (closed): «Please drop /etc/init.d/lvm2-lvmetad»; severity: important; opened: 2018-12-23; last modified: 2019-03-09. |
| 02:15.07 | sney | from https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/l/lvm2/changelog-2.03.02-3 it seems like upstream dropped it |
| 02:17.23 | JordiGH | Thanks. |
| 02:17.50 | sney | np |
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| 03:54.34 | wikan | waves |
| 03:54.51 | wikan | can anyone help with smtube on debian |
| 03:55.02 | wikan | it never worked for me |
| 03:55.14 | sney | ,i smtube |
| 03:55.15 | wikan | any one use it? |
| 03:55.16 | judd | Package smtube (video, optional) in buster/amd64: YouTube videos browser. Version: 18.3.0-1; Size: 264.4k; Installed: 869k; Homepage: http://smplayer.sourceforge.net/smtube.php; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/smtube |
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| 03:55.49 | sney | are you getting an error? have you followed the usage instructions? |
| 03:56.29 | wikan | well I am trying to find something now |
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| 03:56.47 | wikan | newest version is 20, I have 18, error about video url |
| 03:57.30 | sney | ,v smtube |
| 03:57.32 | judd | Package: smtube on amd64 -- jessie: 14.8.0-1; stretch: 15.5.10-1+b1; buster: 18.3.0-1; bullseye: 18.3.0-1+b1; sid: 18.3.0-1+b1; buster-multimedia: 1:20.6.0-dmo1+deb10u3; bullseye-multimedia: 1:20.6.0-dmo2; sid-multimedia: 1:20.6.0-dmo2 |
| 03:57.50 | sney | hrm, probably one of those abi-breaking changes, like you get with youtube-dl |
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| 03:58.25 | wikan | i have heard about api key I need to get |
| 03:58.55 | wikan | but 18 doesn't have any settings for api key |
| 03:59.17 | wikan | can I install v20 safely? |
| 03:59.49 | sney | ,depends smtube --release buster-multimedia |
| 03:59.50 | judd | Package smtube in buster-multimedia/amd64 -- depends: smplayer | mpv | mplayer | vlc | totem | dragonplayer, youtube-dl, libc6 (>= 2.4), libgcc1 (>= 1:3.0), libgl1, libqt5core5a (>= 5.11.0~rc1), libqt5gui5 (>= 5.0.2), libqt5network5 (>= 5.0.2), libqt5webkit5 (>= 5.6.0~rc), libqt5widgets5 (>= 5.0.2), libstdc++6 (>= 5). |
| 04:00.16 | sney | yeah, that's probably low-impact. the buster-multimedia repo should be disabled after you install the package though. |
| 04:02.40 | wikan | trying deb from website |
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| 04:07.32 | wikan | wow - it's only 100mb of ram |
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| 04:07.42 | bolt | wikan: if you're trying to download a movie from a streaming website, check the bug reports for your tool of choice. That stuff is a whole cat-and-mouse game. The website devs keep changing stuff around to confuse the downloaders, because they don't actually want you to download the videos without seeing all the advertising, and because it breaks their licensing agreements. |
| 04:08.05 | wikan | well i just want to watch |
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| 04:08.20 | wikan | firefox + youtube is very heavy |
| 04:08.49 | wikan | it's much more that 100MB of smtube ;) |
| 04:10.03 | wikan | i see only one issue - commercials :| |
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| 04:20.20 | n4dir | youtube-dl can for for me or can not. But if i start the video with vlc i got those 100 MB too, so besides not commercials no advantage. And you probably thought of that already |
| 04:20.33 | n4dir | can work for me. not can for me. Oh my god |
| 04:23.39 | wikan | yea but you can't search via vlc |
| 04:23.53 | n4dir | ah, duh. Right of course. |
| 04:24.18 | n4dir | back in the days i used smtube too. No clue why or when i stopped doing that |
| 04:24.45 | wikan | my system acts weird |
| 04:25.01 | wikan | i started firefox and 4 times est started |
| 04:25.10 | wikan | 5th time - firefox 80 |
| 04:25.16 | wikan | wtf |
| 04:25.41 | n4dir | to me it looks as if it was not your system, but firefox which acts weird. But that might well be my lousy hardware. |
| 04:26.21 | n4dir | i started to try falkon again. Yesterday or such. It is slightly better (again: for me) |
| 04:26.22 | wikan | well I have firefox linked to firefox 80 |
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| 04:27.04 | wikan | it is like $PATH was ignored |
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| 04:28.06 | sney | you've probably got a race condition somewhere. easy fix - if you don't want firefox-esr, remove it |
| 04:28.15 | wikan | how many resources falkon needs? |
| 04:29.17 | n4dir | not that much less. |
| 04:29.32 | n4dir | i can check if you like, but it really isn't that much less |
| 04:30.34 | n4dir | right after i start it looks like 250 MB. Let me do a bit with it, then check again |
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| 04:32.32 | wikan | firefox has good option to unload memory of unused tabs |
| 04:33.03 | wikan | so you may have 20 tabs and fit 600MB |
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| 04:34.28 | n4dir | I seldom start the web-browser at all, and if i use less than 3 tabs |
| 04:34.47 | n4dir | but good info |
| 04:35.38 | wikan | it something like "unloadOn..." in about:config |
| 04:36.27 | wikan | and firefox 80 is really fast. much faster than esr |
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| 06:43.44 | kats99 | excuse me, I accidently overwrote a usbdrive with zeros using dd. Now It's not recognised in gparted and the space has shrunk from 4gb to 64mb. how do I recover it? |
| 06:46.36 | CyberManifest | kats99: https://superuser.com/questions/1086118/restore-the-size-of-an-usb-drive-linux |
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| 06:54.47 | kats99 | thanks..it worked. |
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| 06:56.45 | efloid | does anyone know if there is some issue with Linux and certain M.2 drives? i have a drive that gives fatal I/O errors when trying to mkfs.ext4 on a nvme partition. tried with a 5.7 and a 5.8 kernel. windows is able to format the nvme partition fine. |
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| 07:00.59 | efloid | huh /msg dpkg nvme gives a funny answer. now sure what it means. |
| 07:01.48 | efloid | fwiw there's a high-grade pny m.2 drive in another system that's running fine with sid |
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| 07:04.06 | gry | affix: dpkg sometimes has funny responses to things it doesn't know |
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| 07:05.25 | efloid | yes it said "are you using Windows?, efloid" |
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| 07:06.14 | efloid | maybe basic info for an M.2 factoid would be that there are both SATA and PCI-Express M.2 drives |
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| 07:07.15 | efloid | M.2 PCI-Express drive shows up as /dev/nvme0n partitions are nvme0np1 nvme0np2 ... |
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| 07:09.01 | efloid | * shows up as /dev/nvme0n1 |
| 07:10.27 | efloid | M.2 on most new motherboards are all PCI-Express which is *very* fast |
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| 07:15.36 | efloid | i created a basic M.2 factoid |
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| 07:18.57 | Haohmaru | dpkg is quasi-intelligent |
| 07:18.57 | dpkg | Haohmaru: I'm not sure, is it larger than a breadbox? |
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| 07:20.25 | efloid | i tried to create one for 'optane' also but it didn't take |
| 07:20.55 | efloid | ah now it took |
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| 07:33.08 | efloid | also create msata and nvme factoids. hope they are useful. |
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| 07:33.51 | Haohmaru | there's wikipedia btw |
| 07:34.05 | efloid | hehe true |
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| 08:03.35 | radkos | is there any newer kernel module for drbd in debian 10 |
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| 08:04.05 | radkos | I am using debian 10.5 and the latest version in repo is 8.4.10 - I need 9.x but can't find any available package |
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| 08:06.25 | Haohmaru | ,v drbd |
| 08:06.26 | judd | No package named 'drbd' was found in amd64. |
| 08:06.43 | saveNexit | hello, I would like that the computer hibernates when the battery is critically low, but it shuts down instead, warning accordingly at the said battery level. UPower.conf is set to "HybridSleep", and my device normally is capable of hibernation (i.e. when I manually suspend it), so even if "HybridSleep" is not available (which I dont know whether is), it should be able to select hibernate as Upower.conf says, but it doesnt. |
| 08:07.01 | radkos | the package is drbd-utils |
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| 08:07.13 | radkos | which comes with older kernel module |
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| 08:08.08 | azeem | saveNexit: it hibernates when you manuall suspend it, i.e. it does suspend-to-disk? |
| 08:08.18 | Haohmaru | saveNexit btw, "Suspend" is not like hibernation, it's more fragile |
| 08:08.34 | saveNexit | azeem, I dont know |
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| 08:09.20 | Haohmaru | with suspend you need power because it goes in standby mode.. but you can't shut it down |
| 08:09.41 | Haohmaru | hibernate is like a shutdown.. you can pull the plug afterwards |
| 08:09.51 | saveNexit | I mean what happens when you select "II" symbol or when you shortly press on power button |
| 08:10.07 | azeem | I don't know what a II symbol is |
| 08:10.14 | Haohmaru | i don't have any laptops or battery-powered computers |
| 08:10.17 | saveNexit | it is the "pause" symbol |
| 08:10.25 | azeem | that sounds like suspend-to-ram |
| 08:10.39 | saveNexit | I think it possibly is that |
| 08:10.57 | azeem | as Haohmaru said, suspend-to-disk/hibernation means the machine is off and you can unplug it and remove battery |
| 08:11.00 | saveNexit | it is also what happens when I close the lid |
| 08:11.07 | azeem | right, regular suspend |
| 08:11.16 | Haohmaru | if your battery is going down - you'd want a hibernation (as long as there's enough power to complete that) |
| 08:11.27 | azeem | so hybridsleep won't/can't work because you don't have hibernation setup |
| 08:11.32 | azeem | is my guess |
| 08:11.36 | saveNexit | can I set it up on buster? |
| 08:11.43 | ratrace | btw, to hibernate you need swap the size of RAM at least. |
| 08:11.54 | saveNexit | ah |
| 08:12.16 | saveNexit | the size won |
| 08:12.20 | saveNexit | wont matter |
| 08:12.20 | Haohmaru | yeah, the RAM contents are frozen (sorta) and written to disk, coz the RAM will go without power |
| 08:12.49 | saveNexit | I mean, I can adjust the disk size |
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| 08:13.11 | Haohmaru | then you power up the computer, it will start booting (bios and whatnot) then when it goes to debian it'll see that it's been hibernated, so it'll restore the RAM contents from disk |
| 08:13.41 | Haohmaru | roughly something like that |
| 08:14.08 | azeem | right, you need to test that hibernation works before you can bother about hybridsleep |
| 08:14.09 | saveNexit | but after having a swap partition the size of RAM, what else do I need to do? i.e. how can I have it hibernate then? |
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| 08:14.30 | another | ratrace: actually, by default you need about 2/5 of the RAM |
| 08:14.30 | Haohmaru | in suspend, the RAM contents don't get written to disk, because the RAM is kept powered, most other things go in standby (low power or off) |
| 08:15.02 | ratrace | another: how do yo figure that |
| 08:15.05 | Haohmaru | saveNexit i'd first test if hibernation works by manually doing a hibernation |
| 08:15.34 | Haohmaru | i know suspend works on my computers because i use it every day |
| 08:15.36 | saveNexit | the question is, how do I do a hibernation? where is that option on debian? |
| 08:15.45 | ratrace | saveNexit: GNOME? |
| 08:15.46 | Haohmaru | saveNexit from the.. start menu thing? |
| 08:15.52 | saveNexit | ratrace, yes |
| 08:15.59 | Haohmaru | aww, gnome |
| 08:16.13 | Haohmaru | it SHOULD have a button in the menu somewhere |
| 08:16.15 | ratrace | ah, it's hidden, needs some settings to show in the quick power options, lemmesee... |
| 08:16.23 | Haohmaru | wut |
| 08:16.24 | saveNexit | Haohmauru, on the start menu thing, I dont even have "suspend", it just suspends when I press power button shortly, or close the lid |
| 08:16.32 | ratrace | right. hold down the ALT key and suspend button will turn to hibernate before you click it |
| 08:16.40 | Haohmaru | toss that gnome IMO ;P~ |
| 08:17.09 | jmcnaught | saveNexit: click on the system menu (which has the power button) and hold Alt |
| 08:17.45 | saveNexit | ah ok with alt held, power icon turns to suspend |
| 08:17.56 | ratrace | and hovering it says hibernate? |
| 08:18.12 | saveNexit | it says nothing on hover |
| 08:18.27 | ratrace | does the button icon look like download? arrow downward to disk? |
| 08:18.44 | Haohmaru | aww, who knows his icon theme |
| 08:18.48 | saveNexit | ratrace, no it is the "pause" symbol; like 'II' |
| 08:18.55 | Haohmaru | maybe use commandline for this |
| 08:18.57 | ratrace | not sure that's it then |
| 08:19.07 | saveNexit | it is the default one, I have no theme of my own |
| 08:19.19 | Haohmaru | or install lxpanel and run it |
| 08:19.56 | another | ratrace: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/pm/sleep-states.html?highlight=image_size |
| 08:20.13 | Haohmaru | lxde has shutdown/reboot/suspend/hibernate .. |
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| 08:20.55 | Haohmaru | weren't these commands to systemctl btw? |
| 08:20.59 | saveNexit | still dont understand, when I have its matching swap space, will I magically have "somewhere" on my desktop a hibernate option? |
| 08:21.01 | Haohmaru | systemctl hibernate? |
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| 08:22.10 | kats99 | I get this error Error: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.systemd1.UnitMasked: Unit -.mount is masked. |
| 08:23.08 | kats99 | That showed up while installing a package and the same error is shown when I restart sshd.service..says Unit -.mount is masked..Unmasking it doesn't work |
| 08:23.24 | ratrace | another: that doesn't make sense and that probably means something else. where does all the RAM go when you power off? compression? how do you guarantee compression ratio? you can't... |
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| 08:24.00 | Haohmaru | your RAM and SWAP may already be full when you decide you wanna hibernate |
| 08:24.36 | ratrace | Haohmaru: so in other words it's possible hibernation needs _more_ than RAM size, due to overcommit |
| 08:24.41 | ratrace | but never less |
| 08:24.57 | another | ratrace: hibernation can fail |
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| 08:25.25 | ratrace | sure it can, but we're talking about swap size needed to allow hibernation. you need at least RAM size, not less. |
| 08:25.36 | Haohmaru | yeah, i don't know where the RAM contents go in hibernation, but it must be on disk after all |
| 08:25.41 | ratrace | Haohmaru: to swap |
| 08:25.54 | ratrace | that's why encrypted swap is a bit of a problem for hibernation |
| 08:25.55 | radkos | is there a reason a distributed kernel is holding older drbd module's version? |
| 08:26.23 | Haohmaru | then your swap better be "big enough" and you gotta watch out before going to hibernation |
| 08:26.29 | radkos | i've tried with version 5.x from backports but version slightly changes - still in 4.8.x minority |
| 08:26.50 | ratrace | radkos: what are you talking about? |
| 08:27.05 | another | ratrace: read the docs again. |
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| 08:27.36 | ratrace | another: I have read it. and I'll ask you again, where does all the RAM disappear to when you power off? |
| 08:27.47 | another | it doesn't |
| 08:27.54 | ratrace | then what happens to it? |
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| 08:27.58 | saveNexit | goodness...we could have all cut it short with the reply "no hibernation, forget it" |
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| 08:28.37 | another | sure, if you want to ensure hibernation never fails, you'll need probably a 1:1 size or more |
| 08:28.38 | Haohmaru | saveNexit nobody said that, how big is your RAM and swap? |
| 08:28.44 | ratrace | another: WELL DUH |
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| 08:28.57 | another | but the least? less than physical |
| 08:28.58 | saveNexit | Haohmaur, currently 16GB and 1GB |
| 08:29.09 | Haohmaru | another from what i know so far, i don't think there is a way to ensure that it cannot fail |
| 08:29.19 | Haohmaru | saveNexit 1GB swap?! |
| 08:29.28 | ratrace | saveNexit: right, so you need RAM sized swap if you want to hibernate. |
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| 08:30.00 | saveNexit | Haohmaru, yes?! (if you mean it being too small, some say one doesnt need swap at all?) |
| 08:30.08 | Haohmaru | would that even fit freshly started gnome desktop with no other programs running?! |
| 08:30.18 | ratrace | saveNexit: it's best to have some swap |
| 08:30.43 | saveNexit | Haohmaru, had never any problems even with power-use |
| 08:30.43 | Haohmaru | saveNexit so if you currently are using 600MB ram and 0 swap, you could probably hibernate fine |
| 08:31.10 | Haohmaru | if you're using 4.5GB (programs, ya know) i don't see how that's gonna fit into 1GB swap |
| 08:31.31 | saveNexit | I dont know, but it works, as I said. |
| 08:31.40 | Haohmaru | hibernation works?! |
| 08:31.45 | Haohmaru | ..on your setup |
| 08:31.51 | ratrace | I've never seen a logged in gnome system with at least one program runnig to consume less than 2GB |
| 08:31.52 | saveNexit | no, living with small swap space works |
| 08:31.58 | Haohmaru | sure |
| 08:32.02 | saveNexit | ratrace, so I will be able to hibernate with 16GB swap? |
| 08:32.09 | ratrace | saveNexit: yes |
| 08:32.11 | Haohmaru | hibernation *needs* swap |
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| 08:32.53 | ratrace | saveNexit: when you hibernate, your RAM goes to disk, to swap partition, plain and simple. so you need swap size to be RAM size. ignore all other edge theoretical maybe somehow whatever use cases. swap >= RAM . done. |
| 08:33.21 | Haohmaru | at least |
| 08:33.31 | saveNexit | back to above; where will I find "hibernate"? will the "Alt+power" show "hibernate" then? |
| 08:33.41 | saveNexit | or even if it doesnt show, will it work like that? |
| 08:33.51 | Haohmaru | maybe there should be some kind of a dedicated "swap-like" partition specifically for hibernation |
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| 08:33.55 | ratrace | saveNexit: it should. if it doesn't, check google on how to enable it, iirc there was an extension even |
| 08:33.59 | Haohmaru | to be more fool-proof |
| 08:34.31 | saveNexit | ok, gnome has it |
| 08:34.39 | saveNexit | has also HybridSleep |
| 08:34.43 | saveNexit | in the extensions |
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| 08:35.09 | r0b0 | hello, what is creating and directories in /run/user/NNNN and mounting tmpfs there? and how can I have schroot bind mount them to my schroot jail? |
| 08:35.18 | saveNexit | all right, I will try these, thank you all so very much! |
| 08:37.38 | ratrace | r0b0: PAM and systemd integration create those. what _exactly_ are you trying to achieve here? |
| 08:38.47 | r0b0 | ratrace, I run a centos in a schroot jail, it works fine, just /run/user/1000 is drwx------ root root instead of owned by my user id |
| 08:38.57 | kats99 | ah yes I ran raspi-config on debian host accidently and get this error when I try to install any new packages Error:GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.systemd1.UnitMasked: Unit -.mount is masked. |
| 08:39.04 | another | Haohmaru: yop. but if you're using both RAM and swap near 100%, you have other problems |
| 08:39.17 | ratrace | r0b0: /run/user inside the container is root? |
| 08:39.31 | efloid | i'm wondering if one uses a nand device as the primary system drive is it better to put logs on the mechanical drive? |
| 08:39.31 | another | realisticly nobody does that |
| 08:40.24 | ratrace | another: there's no rule of thumb, it can be any range of usage. thus swap_size >= RAM. |
| 08:40.33 | r0b0 | ratrace, /run/user is drwxr-xr-x root root in both debian and in the container, that's OK, just /run/user/1000 is wrong - I guess that's because it's another tmpfs |
| 08:40.37 | themill | r0b0: if you want this for just one user, you can add "/run/user/1000 /run/user/1000 none rw,bind 0 0" to /etc/schroot/desktop/fstab |
| 08:40.59 | ratrace | r0b0: that's what I meant yes, /run/user/1000 ... so you're talking about that dir _inside_ the container or on the host? |
| 08:41.14 | r0b0 | ratrace, on the host it is correct |
| 08:41.24 | r0b0 | ratrace, in the container it is wrong |
| 08:41.47 | r0b0 | themill, ok, I guess that will do it for one user - enough for my case |
| 08:41.57 | Haohmaru | another what problem? |
| 08:42.02 | themill | (assuming that your schroot is type=desktop) |
| 08:42.09 | r0b0 | themill, it is |
| 08:42.13 | Haohmaru | it happens to me often, ram goes full, swap starts going up to the ceiling too |
| 08:42.20 | ratrace | question is do you actually want to bind host's with all the data and tokens in it, or you just want a plain /run/user/1000 owned by non-root uid inside the container? |
| 08:42.36 | efloid | here's a useful chart on recommended swap sizes: https://itsfoss.com/swap-size/ |
| 08:42.41 | r0b0 | ratrace, i want to bind it - it's the same user |
| 08:42.48 | Haohmaru | there'd be a problem with hibernate in this scenario, no matter how big the swap is |
| 08:42.51 | ratrace | r0b0: okay |
| 08:42.57 | r0b0 | preferably bind all of the users if possible |
| 08:42.58 | another | ratrace: if you want to make it foolproof, then yes. go with the simple answer. if you know about your usage pattern, you can optimize |
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| 08:43.23 | ratrace | another: why wouldn't you want to make it fulproof? wth? if you want to hibernate, swap_size >= RAM. why are we even having this nonsense discussion? |
| 08:43.29 | another | Haohmaru: performance? looming oom killer? |
| 08:43.37 | ratrace | who cares about edge cases and MAYBE situations and blah blah blah. wanna hibernate? swap_size >= RAM. done |
| 08:43.42 | Haohmaru | another sure.. what can i do tho |
| 08:43.48 | Haohmaru | i am well aware ;] |
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| 08:44.11 | Haohmaru | it's usually the browz0r that sh*ts the pants |
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| 08:44.36 | oiaohm | another: to be currect really large swap can result in oom killer not working so instead you getting stuck in icestation thrashing between swap and ram. |
| 08:44.51 | Haohmaru | i got 8GB ram at home, and also 8GB swap i think |
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| 08:45.38 | Haohmaru | so when the swap starts being used - i look into killing individual firefox instances |
| 08:46.02 | Haohmaru | unfortunately it's like russian roulette, cuz i don't know which webpages that's gonna kill |
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| 08:46.35 | ratrace | Haohmaru: stop using chrome then :) |
| 08:46.46 | Haohmaru | i said firefox |
| 08:46.52 | ratrace | you typo'd :))) |
| 08:47.04 | Haohmaru | chrome is incompatible with me, it's made by google ;P~ |
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| 08:47.18 | Haohmaru | i ain't using no chrome sh*t |
| 08:47.34 | ratrace | I currently have 4GB of RAM available on this machine, because 12GB is locked into hugepages for Windozer VM. FF works just fine, there's actually 2.3 free and swap uses maybe 100MB |
| 08:47.43 | oiaohm | ratrace: chrome can still eat you out of memory. |
| 08:47.49 | another | ratrace: *I* care about edge cases, for example. |
| 08:47.52 | ratrace | oiaohm: you don't sa |
| 08:47.53 | ratrace | y |
| 08:48.02 | oiaohm | I use both chrome and firefox |
| 08:48.17 | Haohmaru | ratrace i usually open a lot of .pdfs with firefox |
| 08:48.17 | oiaohm | And both have been causes of my 4G of ram system having memory problems. |
| 08:48.25 | Haohmaru | among other things |
| 08:49.01 | Haohmaru | and there are some websites that make firefox sh*t on its pants, you may close those pages afterwards - but the memory won't be freed |
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| 08:50.05 | oiaohm | Haohmaru: I have seen the same thing with chrome as well. I have got to know how to restart both firefox and chrome really well. |
| 08:50.16 | Haohmaru | oiaohm basically, it doesn't matter how much RAM you have.. go to imgur and have fun there for enough time and your RAM will get filled |
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| 08:50.44 | Haohmaru | i got computers with RAM from 2GB up to 8GB |
| 08:50.45 | ratrace | another: right, but those edge cases aren't generalizable to everyone. you can't know how much RAM someone needs and uses at any given point, so any answer other than swap_size >= RAM is wrong and misleading |
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| 08:51.14 | ratrace | like for example in my case. I have 16GB in my machine. I want to hibernate. how big swap size should I use? |
| 08:51.47 | another | technically no. practically yes |
| 08:51.51 | Haohmaru | ratrace the answer (afaiu) should be "to hibernate, you gotta have swap, and when you go to hibernate, you better have enough free space in the swap to hold the used RAM" |
| 08:52.08 | makara1 | i heard swap should be double your RAM size |
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| 08:52.25 | ratrace | Haohmaru: right, and how much am I using at any particular moment? no idea, so swap_size >= RAM size |
| 08:52.31 | Haohmaru | makara1 that still won't help hibernation if both RAM and swap are nearly full |
| 08:52.44 | ratrace | makara1: that used to be the case decade(s) ago when RAM sizes were typically <1GB |
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| 08:53.21 | ratrace | with RAM regularly being 2GB or more, that rule of thumb really doesn't apply |
| 08:53.29 | Haohmaru | ratrace yes, certainly the swap should be at least as big as the RAM, but my answer sorta includes it |
| 08:53.48 | ratrace | Haohmaru: it does but vaguely. |
| 08:54.13 | Haohmaru | i'd explain it ;P~ |
| 08:54.35 | oiaohm | makara1: in a system like mine with 32G of ram I have just over 32G of swap. Once I start using swap I normally have performance trouble. |
| 08:54.56 | Haohmaru | i really think there should be a dedicated partition for hibernation, if anyone seriously wants to rely on it |
| 08:55.08 | Haohmaru | then things would be simpler |
| 08:55.45 | oiaohm | Yes most of my swap usage is hybernation. General running less than 1G of swap is used on my system. |
| 08:56.17 | makara1 | these versions are confusing. Which should I install? |
| 08:56.19 | makara1 | sudo apt install inetutils-traceroute # version 2:1.9.4-11, or |
| 08:56.21 | makara1 | sudo apt install traceroute # version 1:2.1.0-2 |
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| 08:57.19 | ratrace | Haohmaru: note one more thing, as oyu can't change swap size on the fly (it's locked upon creating the swap partition or file), then RAM usage at any given moment is irrelevant and useless information, because you can't alter swap to adapt (unless it's a swapfile and you swapoff&swapon and blah blah, but you get the gist of it) |
| 08:58.23 | ratrace | so any answer other than swap_size >= RAM is theoretical what-if scenario with little practical generalized value. |
| 08:59.19 | Haohmaru | okay, but do you agree that there's a potential issue? |
| 08:59.28 | Haohmaru | coz that's how i see it |
| 08:59.51 | Haohmaru | i don't know the details of swap partitions |
| 08:59.59 | ratrace | Haohmaru: what issue? |
| 09:00.18 | ratrace | Haohmaru: that you need more swap than RAM due to overcommit? |
| 09:00.20 | Haohmaru | that depending on the situation, hibernation may not work |
| 09:00.43 | ratrace | Haohmaru: oh yes, definitely. and not just due to RAM size...... *glares at nvidia* |
| 09:00.56 | Haohmaru | yeah, ignore crapvidia |
| 09:01.14 | another | ratrace: you can change swap size on the fly on lvm |
| 09:01.17 | Haohmaru | so, do you agree with me that perhaps a dedicated partition for hibernation could maybe solve this? |
| 09:01.36 | ratrace | another: not without swapoff&swapon |
| 09:01.52 | oiaohm | makara1: welcome to horrible over those traceroute. traceroute 2.1.0-2 is from 2016-03-08 inetutils-traceroute version 2:1.9.4-11 is from 2015-06-10 Basically neither one is highly maintained. |
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| 09:02.21 | oiaohm | makara1: you would expect the slightly newer one to be better. |
| 09:02.23 | Haohmaru | oiaohm or maybe they work flawlessly already? |
| 09:02.24 | ratrace | Haohmaru: frankly I don't see the difference, as the same problem would exist: how much. |
| 09:03.07 | Haohmaru | ratrace i mean, then you'd have a dedicated partition for hibernation, you'd only have to make that one big enough to fit both the RAM and swap |
| 09:03.08 | another | sure. but you can add a second, temporary swap partition |
| 09:03.10 | ratrace | makara1: mtr-tiny is what I use for all the tracerouting needs of mine |
| 09:03.11 | Haohmaru | right? |
| 09:03.30 | oiaohm | Haohmaru: I would say not thinking traceroute 2.1.0-2 the -2 there are debian fix to faults that are not fixed updstream so have not been properly peer reviewed. |
| 09:03.33 | ratrace | Haohmaru: right but as another said, that's just like having two swap partitions |
| 09:03.35 | ElNomReal | Why not leave the swap in swap and have a partition just for the ram for hibernate? |
| 09:03.47 | ratrace | because it wouldn't matter |
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| 09:04.04 | Haohmaru | ratrace yes, except the 2nd one is never gonna be used as swap, it'll be empty untill hibernation is wanted |
| 09:04.38 | ratrace | Say your current RAM usage is X for active pages, Y for unused. your swap size has to be >=Y for non-hibernate situation, and >= X+Y for hibernate situations. if you split those into two, you still have X + Y total space on disk needed |
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| 09:05.20 | Haohmaru | uhm |
| 09:05.23 | ratrace | so even if you designate one for "active pages from RAM when I hibernate" and the other for "unused pages from RAM in normal operation" you end up with exactly the same on-disk space demands |
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| 09:05.47 | oiaohm | Haohmaru: you can run into the current nightmare where hybernate fails because you have used enough swap that there is no enough space in swap to dump memory to swap. |
| 09:05.50 | ElNomReal | It seems to be just a matter of, if you want to use hibernate like this, make sure that the ram can always fit into the free space of swap, or if not when you hibernate, remove the oldest swap until it fits? |
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| 09:05.59 | Haohmaru | okay, my coffee levels are too low for this discussion, i quit |
| 09:06.26 | oiaohm | I would like to see some better swap management. |
| 09:06.29 | ratrace | Haohmaru: in such technical discussion, "swap" as a single term disappears. you really must talk about active pages and unused pages. |
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| 09:06.51 | Haohmaru | yeah, i'm unfamiliar with the details, so i quit |
| 09:07.07 | Haohmaru | i've never needed hibernate so far, suspend is gud enuf |
| 09:07.22 | ratrace | because hibernation is really just swapping out 100% of active pages. so if you already have unused pages ther due to overcommit, you run into trouble if your overcommit is such that active+unused > RAM >= swap_size |
| 09:07.25 | Haohmaru | i don't have/like laptops or battery-powered crapputers |
| 09:07.47 | oiaohm | There is a horrible one. No swap at all with Linux kernel can cause increased memory fragmentation because new memory defragmentation methods with the Linux kernel use push to swap as part of the process. |
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| 09:09.20 | oiaohm | I do have systems with zero disc based swap but with a small ram based swap instead so keeping kernel defragmentation of memory happy. |
| 09:09.21 | ratrace | Haohmaru: well the tl;dr;wheres;my;coffee answer is: the linux kernel doesn't differentiate "hibernation RAM". it's just a "normal" swap-out operation where swappiness is turning from heuristic into "PAGE THEM ALL OUT!!" |
| 09:10.21 | ratrace | oiaohm: also https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/unix/NoSwapConsequence |
| 09:10.30 | oiaohm | Items you have in swap stuff you have hibernated. stuff that has had to be swapped out. Stuff the Linux kernel has sent to swap because it currently moving its location in ram thinks nothing going to access it. |
| 09:10.40 | ratrace | as for memory fragmentation, it's bigger problem than one may think. |
| 09:12.53 | oiaohm | ratrace: Yes memory fragmentation is a really nasty problem. Thinking zero swap equals Linux kenrel using less methods to deal with it the problem is now even worse with swap disabled. |
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| 09:16.11 | oiaohm | I have like 32 and 128G of ram systems. Stall hard is normally not my issue from no swap. Memory fragmenetation resulting in massively degraded performance that magically disappearing as soon as you issue 128meg zram swap as in swap in ram. |
| 09:16.47 | oiaohm | There are many ways no swap can get your ass with a Linux kernel. |
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| 09:19.21 | another | oiaohm: does that apply to VMs as well? |
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| 09:21.30 | ratrace | another: one problem I have with VMs and frag is reserving hugepages of 1G. so I have to reserve them on boot, because there's no guarantee I'll find enough contiguous 1G blocks even with several GB apparently "free" |
| 09:21.55 | ratrace | (several GB _more_ than what I need for hugepages) |
| 09:22.03 | oiaohm | another: it can. Its one of the things you need to check your vm workloads for. |
| 09:22.28 | oiaohm | Yes a degraded VM hosted in the cloud can be expensive for pocket. |
| 09:22.34 | Haohmaru | luckily i don't use virtual sh*t |
| 09:22.52 | Haohmaru | it sounds like a big hack ;P~ |
| 09:23.10 | H4ndy | Baremetal virtualization is great |
| 09:23.19 | ratrace | Haohmaru: VMs are a great tool. solves so many problems... |
| 09:23.34 | hwm4rgs | VMs are OP. So are containers. |
| 09:23.39 | Haohmaru | i've tried it once or twice.. to run linux on crapdows, with 2GB RAM on the computer |
| 09:24.29 | oiaohm | Haohmaru: yes the push to swap by the Linux kernel when defraging memory is a hack to provide a safe guard. When you are moving memory you are trying to make sure nothing is accessing at the time. Push to swap if something has not be isolated yet and it access it the swap system is able to bring the memory back. |
| 09:24.40 | ratrace | Haohmaru: I'm using VMs to run crapdows on linux :) I wouldn't allow crapdows to touch my hardware except pci passthrud' dedicated hardware, for no amount of money in the world! |
| 09:24.48 | ratrace | hwm4rgs: OP? |
| 09:24.51 | hwm4rgs | overpowered |
| 09:24.59 | Haohmaru | i have 3 computers at home, the oldest one isn't used, the bestest one has debian10 only, the middle one has crapdows and debian10 |
| 09:25.35 | Haohmaru | the goal is to get rid of the crapdows.. my music-related stuff is holding me back |
| 09:25.45 | Haohmaru | looking into resolving that |
| 09:26.26 | ratrace | wish I could get rid of it, but alas I can't. what seemed like linux gaming picking up on steam in the past two years, melted away and the future of it looks very, very bleak. |
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| 09:26.36 | oiaohm | With music stuff I am watching pipewire and wanting it complete to finally fix the jackaudio/pulseaudio issue and finally get down to 1 sound server. |
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| 09:27.18 | Haohmaru | oiaohm my problem is.. i have made a bunch of VST plugins.. :~( |
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| 09:27.51 | ratrace | Haohmaru: wine won't cut it? |
| 09:28.18 | Haohmaru | i already tested the fancy audio interface the other day, recorded some 30-minute session with ardour, it worked fine |
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| 09:28.33 | Haohmaru | ratrace i don't want wine stuff, if possible |
| 09:28.36 | oiaohm | Haohmaru: I guess they don't work with the new VST sdk to make Linux versions. |
| 09:28.37 | ratrace | Haohmaru: no I mean, drinking it to soothe the pain of running crapdows :))))) |
| 09:28.46 | Haohmaru | >:( |
| 09:28.50 | Haohmaru | i don't drink alcohol |
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| 09:29.17 | ratrace | j/k .. I mean really, try it, if WINE works then maybe you don't have to run the entire steaming pile just for a few VST progs |
| 09:29.36 | Haohmaru | i know my plugins work via wine |
| 09:29.41 | ratrace | so instead you run just a few tiny steaming micro-pile DLLs |
| 09:29.44 | Haohmaru | but.. |
| 09:30.51 | Haohmaru | i wanna make new plugins too, i don't want to make them windows-only thus i've paused for a long time untill i abandon the crapdows ship |
| 09:31.14 | oiaohm | Haohmaru: https://github.com/steinbergmedia/vst3sdk The Linux version of the VST SDK is in beta. |
| 09:31.29 | Haohmaru | i want vst2.4 |
| 09:31.39 | oiaohm | That oucn |
| 09:32.03 | Haohmaru | even if i break their stupid license |
| 09:32.07 | Haohmaru | F them |
| 09:32.34 | Haohmaru | or another format that wurkz on linux |
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| 09:32.57 | Haohmaru | i don't care what it is as long as it works and it's not uber difficult to make my kinds of stuff |
| 09:33.27 | oiaohm | Haohmaru: it is possible to make vst 2.4 plugins for Linux. |
| 09:33.36 | Haohmaru | they killed vst2 so people move to vst3, yet vst3 sux |
| 09:34.32 | another | oiaohm: any metric to see if the memory is defragmented? |
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| 09:36.52 | Haohmaru | i gotta look into this ardour thing to see if it's good enough for my usage, or else i'm thinking to buy Renoise which afaik comes for linux too |
| 09:37.40 | Haohmaru | i know renoise is eggcelent, but needs learning |
| 09:39.30 | oiaohm | another: its not easy to metric. Different partly filled structs that could be merge could be causing memory fragmentation. Unless you know those structures should be merged they can look no fragmented just using a lot of memory. |
| 09:41.14 | oiaohm | another: there are a stack of different memory defragmentors in the Linux kernel each designed to deal with different structures the Linux kernel users. Basically there is no simple metric. |
| 09:42.08 | another | hm.. |
| 09:42.20 | another | satanist: ^^ |
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| 09:43.05 | oiaohm | Normally I do a test comparing with and without swap if I see major difference I know I need to dig though all the different metrics for the difference between the two runs. |
| 09:43.45 | oiaohm | and that will normally lead me to what ever defragmentor was not running to note down for when it improved in the Linux kernel source to no longer need swap. |
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| 09:44.41 | Haohmaru | can you run a program and tell "the OS" to not let that program use more than N amount of RAM? |
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| 09:45.06 | Haohmaru | would be useful to run firefox like that |
| 09:45.07 | another | maybe with cgroups? |
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| 09:46.11 | Haohmaru | coz when even the swap runs out, you can get a situation when you can't even kill stuff, you can't get a terminal or taskmanager |
| 09:46.17 | another | oiaohm: do you have any more reference material ? |
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| 09:47.27 | oiaohm | another: there was a video from Linux conference Australia covering it and I just have a stack of personal collected notes from being aware the beast is there. |
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| 09:50.32 | oiaohm | another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSh2s9L4UcI 2017 LCA they walk though how they make memory movable this is when I came aware that swap was kind of a little more critical than I was thinking. |
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| 09:51.22 | oiaohm | They started using swap for memory moving to defrag stuff as early as 2005. |
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| 09:52.22 | oiaohm | So yes some of those odd behavours you can get out of vm and baremetal at times when you have no swap can lead to the fact you have disabled one or more of the memory defragment systems. |
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| 09:53.59 | another | oiaohm: thanks, i'll look into it |
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| 10:04.19 | solrize | hi, i want to run pdftotext and all docs say it is in poppler-utils but i have that installed and pdftotext isn't there. any idea where to look next? i'm on buster |
| 10:05.20 | solrize | hmm now it's there. weird |
| 10:05.28 | solrize | i did apt-get update etc |
| 10:06.28 | ElNomReal | Hmm, There's likely something that had to be restarted. |
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| 10:15.57 | themill | solrize: it is is poppler-utils: poppler-utils: /usr/bin/pdftotext |
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| 10:20.03 | solrize | yeah it works for me now, i dunno what went wrong before |
| 10:20.25 | solrize | i prob missed something dumb |
| 10:20.33 | solrize | anyway thanks, sorry, false alarm |
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| 10:41.48 | jelly | solr... might have missed the need to "hash -r" |
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| 10:46.39 | hwm4rgs | Haohmaru: for services that run as a user, you can ulimit. and for processes, you can probably limit with cgroups. |
| 10:47.08 | Haohmaru | hmz |
| 10:47.26 | hwm4rgs | https://github.com/pshved/timeout can be used to limit memory too, apparently. but the readme suggests cgroups. |
| 10:48.42 | hwm4rgs | and right. for services you don't wanna ulimit the user, you probably want to do that through systemd (which uses cgroups)= |
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| 10:50.51 | Haohmaru | but now when i think about it.. limiting just firefox won't prevent such a nasty situation from happening |
| 10:52.04 | hwm4rgs | https://github.com/rfjakob/earlyoom this might be more in line with what you want, Haohmaru |
| 10:52.12 | Haohmaru | well, that's why i have ram and swap meters on the taskbar and i eyeball them |
| 10:52.18 | hwm4rgs | kill stuff before S hits the fan instead of when :) |
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| 11:05.43 | TuxCrazy | on Virtual Machine Manager, I am not able to access other partitions on my computer's HDD. |
| 11:05.51 | TuxCrazy | please help |
| 11:06.08 | ratrace | TuxCrazy: what do you mean other? give an example please |
| 11:07.23 | TuxCrazy | I am able to create a virtual machine with an iso that is copied on the Home partition only. But, if the iso is on any other partition, I can't create that virtual machine. |
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| 11:10.31 | TuxCrazy | It says that - the emulator may not have search permissions for the path. |
| 11:11.09 | ratrace | TuxCrazy: well yes, if your ISO is in a location not accessible to the user the VM is running as, it can't be read |
| 11:11.10 | lovemytux | @TuxCrazy: check the permissions to the relevant directory then |
| 11:11.32 | ratrace | not just location (parent directory), but all parts of that path, including the ISO itself. |
| 11:11.33 | TuxCrazy | lovemytux, how |
| 11:11.36 | TuxCrazy | ? |
| 11:11.46 | ratrace | with ls |
| 11:12.19 | TuxCrazy | ratrace, could you specify the full command? |
| 11:12.21 | ratrace | TuxCrazy: or better yet, start with learning the unix permission model and how it relates to files and directories. then with that knowledge, check if the path of the ISO is readable to the VM user |
| 11:12.41 | TuxCrazy | ok |
| 11:13.24 | ratrace | now the VM user, I think virt-manager w/ libvirt has a dedicated user for it, so it's not you |
| 11:13.31 | lovemytux | @TuxCrazy: check something like this https://linuxize.com/post/chmod-command-in-linux/ |
| 11:13.42 | ratrace | you = user that's using the virt-manager and starting the VM through its interface |
| 11:14.04 | TuxCrazy | ratrace, there is only one user for this computer and that's me. |
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| 11:14.23 | ratrace | TuxCrazy: on linux "user" is more than just a physical person running the machine |
| 11:14.35 | TuxCrazy | ratrace, ok |
| 11:14.56 | ratrace | again, please learn about the unix permission model. good place to start, the holy grail of linux wikis, archwiki: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/File_permissions_and_attributes |
| 11:15.53 | ratrace | TuxCrazy: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Users_and_groups |
| 11:16.56 | TuxCrazy | ratrace, thanks a lot. |
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| 11:33.16 | oxek | anyone know how to disable this in firefox? https://www.howtogeek.com/688518/how-to-play-mozilla-firefoxs-hidden-unicorn-pong-game/ |
| 11:35.41 | CyberManifest | oxek: put things back |
| 11:36.38 | oxek | CyberManifest: I'm asking for a way to disable it, so that it can be disabled in policy for all school computers... |
| 11:36.40 | oxek | not for me |
| 11:36.44 | Haohmaru | oxek ur kids are playing gamez on the browser? |
| 11:36.50 | Haohmaru | ask support i'd say |
| 11:37.07 | oxek | there's no firefox support |
| 11:37.14 | Haohmaru | huh |
| 11:37.20 | Haohmaru | report it as a bug? |
| 11:37.38 | oxek | "it's not a bug, it's a feature" |
| 11:37.56 | oxek | it's ok if it can't be disabled, I just have to prove I tried. |
| 11:37.58 | Haohmaru | needs a mechanism to be restricted by root/admin IMO |
| 11:38.14 | ratrace | there is FF support, btw..... https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/new/desktop |
| 11:38.28 | Haohmaru | i thought there is too |
| 11:38.29 | oxek | I did not find a setting in firefox enterprise policies for this |
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| 11:38.55 | oxek | ratrace: firefox support is on the same level as microsoft forums - you don't go there for support |
| 11:39.19 | CyberManifest | oxek: google search https://superuser.com/questions/1056141/can-i-disable-the-unicorn-in-firefox/1056166 |
| 11:43.10 | ratrace | oxek: well, it's community support. the product is free. |
| 11:43.37 | ratrace | but their bugzilla is usually the place I find problems I encountered mentioned, sometimes with fixes or workarounds |
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| 12:00.11 | oxek | I messed up. I need to purge firefox and reinstall it. When I do 'apt purge firefox-esr', it not only want to purge firefox, but it also wants to install epiphany-browser and other packages. |
| 12:00.23 | oxek | how can I just purge firefox and not install anything else? |
| 12:01.22 | bendem | does it list them under unused dependencies? If so you can `apt install` them to mark them as manually installed |
| 12:01.38 | nvz | oxek: you need to make a package that provides www-browser with equivs |
| 12:01.51 | nvz | oxek: or uninstall any and everything which depends on a browser |
| 12:01.59 | oxek | https://0x0.st/iILA.txt |
| 12:02.12 | oxek | that is the output of 'sudo apt -s purge firefox-esr' |
| 12:02.24 | bendem | sounds about right |
| 12:02.50 | oxek | I have lynx installed |
| 12:03.10 | nvz | oxek: that is of no help to us helping you.. the output of aptitude why firefox-esr may be |
| 12:03.28 | oxek | i task-desktop Recommends firefox | firefox-esr |
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| 12:03.43 | nvz | you don't need task-desktop |
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| 12:03.53 | nvz | its an empy metapackage |
| 12:04.17 | nvz | you would however probably want to mark as manual another such root package it pulls in |
| 12:04.29 | nvz | to prevent all that it installed automatically from being autoremovable |
| 12:04.30 | oxek | trying to remove task-desktop it would be a bad idea |
| 12:04.43 | bendem | lynx is actually providing www-browser |
| 12:04.51 | nvz | no, as I said before, you don't need it, its empty |
| 12:05.02 | nvz | ,i task-desktop |
| 12:05.04 | judd | Package task-desktop (tasks, optional) in buster/amd64: Debian desktop environment. Version: 3.53; Size: 1.0k; Installed: 6k |
| 12:05.20 | oxek | I know it's empty, but it makes lots of other stuff be autoremoved and I don't want to mark them all as manual |
| 12:05.37 | nvz | then just give up on this endeavor :P |
| 12:05.39 | oxek | is there really no flag to apt to make it just remove one thing? |
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| 12:05.44 | nvz | or use equivs like I said |
| 12:06.09 | nvz | equivs lets you make a shim to satisfy the package manager when you think you know better |
| 12:06.15 | bendem | are you using gnome? |
| 12:06.19 | oxek | xfce |
| 12:06.30 | oxek | looking up equivs now |
| 12:06.39 | bendem | because lynx provides www-browser but not gnome-www-browser |
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| 12:06.53 | bendem | not sure about xfce |
| 12:07.08 | nvz | shrugs |
| 12:07.24 | nvz | if it wants firefox-esr with equivs you can give it firefox-esr or w/e it wants |
| 12:07.39 | nvz | you can very easily make an empty package with whatever headers you like |
| 12:07.56 | nvz | install that package, the system is none the wiser |
| 12:10.48 | nvz | however you should note that equivs was designed to tell the package manager you've satisfied the dependency in your own way.. if you /haven't/ some things may not work properly |
| 12:11.03 | oxek | I'll see what I can do with equivs |
| 12:11.11 | nvz | the maintainers dont put depends lines in there just do be aggrivating |
| 12:11.12 | oxek | and hopefully do stuff in a way that can be reverted 30 seconds later |
| 12:11.26 | jelly | package A that only Recommends B won't get removed if B is removed. |
| 12:11.46 | oxek | in this case, the maintainers have not considered that I want to remove firefox and immedially install it after |
| 12:12.08 | jelly | do it in one step. |
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| 12:12.49 | nvz | yeah.. if you want to resintall it from the repos and not manually like compling it or something.. then just do it all in one step |
| 12:13.06 | azy | hello! im trying to compile 'cherrytree', but i get the error: Requested 'glibmm-2.4 >= 2.64' but version of glibmm is 2.58.0. i have a newer version it seems. what should i do? debian10 |
| 12:14.03 | nvz | ,v glibmm-2.4 |
| 12:14.05 | judd | No package named 'glibmm-2.4' was found in amd64. |
| 12:14.13 | ratrace | libglibmm-2.4-1v5 |
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| 12:14.23 | nvz | ,v glibmm-2.4-1v5 |
| 12:14.24 | judd | No package named 'glibmm-2.4-1v5' was found in amd64. |
| 12:14.37 | ratrace | scratches its head |
| 12:14.38 | azy | libglibmm-2.4-1v5 is installed |
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| 12:14.48 | jelly | oxek, use a lower level tool to purge a package if you need that might help things, and then let apt correct the state afterwards |
| 12:14.51 | n4dir | there is an old thread at forums.debian.net how to deal with the problem at hand as far metapackages are concerned. If it is good advice or not i wouldn't know |
| 12:14.59 | azy | and libglibmm-2.4-dev |
| 12:15.38 | jelly | oxek, in your case, it would be a RARE example where usage of --force- options for dpkg is warranted. dpkg --purge --force-depends firefox-esr |
| 12:15.39 | ratrace | but the program needs 2.64 or newer, while buster packages 2.58 |
| 12:16.10 | n4dir | http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=104157 |
| 12:16.17 | ratrace | azy: sounds like you may want a sid container for your prorgam |
| 12:16.20 | nvz | ,v libglibmm-2.4-dev |
| 12:16.21 | judd | Package: libglibmm-2.4-dev on amd64 -- jessie: 2.42.0-1; stretch: 2.50.0-1; buster: 2.58.0-2; bullseye: 2.64.2-2; sid: 2.64.2-2 |
| 12:16.43 | jelly | azy, you would need to backport the newer glibmm-2.4, and it's hard to say how that might break other software that uses the same library |
| 12:16.58 | nvz | ,checkbackport libglibmm-2.4-1v5 |
| 12:17.09 | judd | Backporting package libglibmm-2.4-1v5 in sidâbuster/amd64: unsatisfiable build dependencies: Build-Depends: debhelper-compat (= 12), libglib2.0-dev (>= 2.61.2). |
| 12:17.54 | nvz | looks like you're gonna go down a rabbit hole and have to backport libglib2.0 and who knows what else |
| 12:18.12 | azy | i removed it from cmakelists.txt... currently 65% make'd |
| 12:18.29 | nvz | ,checkbackport libglib2.0heh |
| 12:18.30 | judd | No package named 'libglib2.0heh' was found in sid/amd64. |
| 12:18.31 | Haohmaru | the embarassing question |
| 12:18.32 | jelly | I have no idea how safe or unsafe that is and whether libglib2.0 maintainers and upstream are good at keeping ABI compat |
| 12:19.20 | ratrace | no rabbit holes. just use a sid container. |
| 12:19.32 | azy | should i use sid instead of buster in general? |
| 12:19.35 | nvz | sorry, I was in the middle of checking the other package when you made me laugh at the idea you think something that requires a wrapper for a toolkit can magically work without it |
| 12:19.46 | nvz | azy: no, probably not |
| 12:19.55 | ratrace | containers were invented fora reason you know :) it's bad when people overabuse them for things that don't really require them, but if you do? there they are. |
| 12:20.19 | nvz | azy: worst case scenario you build it in some kind of chroot or container |
| 12:20.35 | alex11 | sid means continual updates and potential breakage compared to stable |
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| 12:20.36 | ratrace | that's actually the best case scenario |
| 12:20.46 | alex11 | if you want to work with rather than on your computer probably use stable |
| 12:21.04 | nvz | ratrace: why are you certain backporting glib chains will not suffice? |
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| 12:21.46 | ratrace | nvz: because fighting with dependencies is worse than debootstrapping a sid container and building/running your app like that. |
| 12:22.30 | ratrace | and glib is very much used in many places on a typical linux desktop, so yeah... or else you'd "slot" it (build with different soname, in parallel with existing glibmm) |
| 12:22.37 | ratrace | *glib |
| 12:23.32 | nvz | ratrace: I do agree that in this case its not only a complicated series of things to backport and may break other things.. so \o/ |
| 12:23.54 | ratrace | right. but yeah, otherwise !ssb is nice, if it can be done easily |
| 12:24.30 | azy | thanks for all the help and suggestions. gonna code my own version with blackjack and hookers instead |
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| 12:24.39 | ratrace | hehe, best answer :) |
| 12:24.43 | nvz | heh |
| 12:25.00 | nvz | you do however still have the problem of the container breaking because its sid |
| 12:25.15 | ratrace | right but being a container, you can also install once and never update |
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| 12:25.47 | nvz | ratrace: what happens in vegas.. |
| 12:25.54 | ratrace | stays in vegas :) |
| 12:26.10 | nvz | shouts bring on the hookers and blackjack! |
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| 12:26.46 | n4dir | the problem is not that sid does break all the time, but that it can break at any time |
| 12:26.47 | Haohmaru | NSFW that sh*t |
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| 12:31.22 | oxek | I got the equivs thing to work, so that I no longer get offered epiphany-browser when I purge firefox. Went ahead with the purge, and apt happily did: update-alternatives: using /usr/bin/chromium to provide /usr/bin/x-www-browser (x-www-browser) in auto mode |
| 12:31.30 | oxek | so why did apt want to install epiphany... |
| 12:31.39 | oxek | when I already have both lynx and chromium |
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| 12:32.15 | nvz | somewhere there was either a metapackage or an or in a depends line |
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| 12:33.06 | ksk | oxek: is it installed right now? Then you can ask aptitude why it was installed: "aptitude why pkg" (Didnt we talk about that in here like three weeks ago??) |
| 12:33.24 | nvz | said it less than an hour ago |
| 12:33.43 | n4dir | pretty much the only reason why i install aptitude at all |
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| 12:34.13 | ratrace | oxek: y u prefer chromium over ff. asking for a friend. |
| 12:34.31 | oxek | ratrace: I don't, just needed to temporarily remove firefox to fix an issue |
| 12:34.35 | oxek | I'm installing firefox back |
| 12:34.44 | oxek | ksk: yes, chromium was installed |
| 12:34.47 | nvz | ratrace: I also prefer it for most things, I like the interface better and it loads faster |
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| 12:35.03 | tux_de_botina | hi folks |
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| 12:35.23 | oxek | ksk: I don't remember if I discussed this 3 weeks ago. |
| 12:35.24 | nvz | ratrace: I only use FF to appify things, I use a custom userChrome.css to make icons for things like netflix and have them run in FF with absolutley no UI.. no scrollbars or anything |
| 12:35.28 | n4dir | i'd have a look at the page at forums.debian.net anyway. This won't be the last time the problem occurs. |
| 12:35.38 | tux_de_botina | somebody already configure ecr4.0 bluetooth dongle in debian? |
| 12:35.42 | jelly | ,v localslackirc |
| 12:35.43 | ratrace | nvz: not bad |
| 12:35.44 | judd | Package: localslackirc on amd64 -- buster: 1.2-1; bullseye: 1.10-1; sid: 1.10-1 |
| 12:36.01 | jelly | ,checkbackport localslackirc |
| 12:36.02 | judd | Backporting package localslackirc in sidâbuster/amd64: unsatisfiable build dependencies: Build-Depends: python3-typedload (>= 2). |
| 12:36.11 | jelly | ,checkbackport python3-typedload |
| 12:36.12 | judd | Backporting package python3-typedload in sidâbuster/amd64: unsatisfiable build dependencies: Build-Depends: mypy (>= 0.740). |
| 12:36.13 | tux_de_botina | when im try enable hci device this message appear |
| 12:36.13 | tux_de_botina | Can't init device hci0: Invalid request code (56) |
| 12:36.19 | jelly | oh good grie |
| 12:36.31 | nvz | jelly: :P welcome to the world of python |
| 12:36.45 | nvz | fortunately there is an app for that :P |
| 12:36.50 | nvz | virtualenv |
| 12:37.11 | jelly | I only had to go 2 more levels deeper |
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| 12:38.08 | ratrace | I nver install package python libs, unless they're automatic dependency for something else. all my python apps are managed in virtualenvs, and installed with deps from pypi |
| 12:38.31 | nvz | I've used pip but not virtualenv yet |
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| 12:40.15 | jelly | ratrace, well that's just giving up! |
| 12:40.35 | jelly | might as well curl | sudo bash - |
| 12:41.05 | nvz | curls jelly |
| 12:41.14 | ratrace | not at all. gives me the ability to fine tune deps and upgrade them when and if I want. |
| 12:41.43 | nvz | ew, anyone have a wet wipe? :P |
| 12:41.45 | ratrace | waiting for debian to package something up is not good enough for python in our case. we're a python shop, our apps are in python and we need 100% control of the ecosystem. |
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| 12:46.43 | Haohmaru | aww, a snek shop |
| 12:47.47 | bolt | no sell snek |
| 12:48.11 | Haohmaru | lock snek in snek jail pls |
| 12:49.01 | oxek | I now have working firefox again |
| 12:49.07 | oxek | but the main issue is not fixed... |
| 12:49.16 | Haohmaru | aww |
| 12:49.18 | oxek | jelly: I'll remember the dpkg tip for next time, thanks |
| 12:49.23 | Haohmaru | still pony tetris? |
| 12:49.33 | oxek | the ponies are gone |
| 12:49.37 | oxek | a bigger issue cropped up |
| 12:49.44 | Haohmaru | o_O wut issue |
| 12:49.48 | oxek | 'The Enterprise Policies service is inactive.' on about:policies |
| 12:49.58 | nvz | o.O |
| 12:50.00 | Haohmaru | da hell is that |
| 12:50.04 | nvz | yeah, really |
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| 12:50.13 | oxek | even though I have /etc/firefox-esr/policies/policies.json |
| 12:50.30 | nvz | sounds like the rules for living in deep space nine |
| 12:50.58 | oxek | hmm, I suspect it might need to live in /etc/firefox/policies/policies.json instead |
| 12:51.29 | Haohmaru | shouldn't this kind of thing be in your homedir somewhere? |
| 12:52.03 | oxek | Haohmaru: nope, needs to be for all users, and only root can change it |
| 12:52.14 | Haohmaru | fancy |
| 12:52.27 | Haohmaru | put symlinks to it everywhere \o/ |
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| 12:53.10 | ratrace | I'm always fascinated by the tiny edge cases oxek digs out in software :) |
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| 12:53.45 | oxek | and... firefox crashed on startup |
| 12:53.46 | Haohmaru | tiny edges are the deadliest |
| 12:53.55 | ratrace | razor sharp! |
| 12:54.25 | Haohmaru | if they're tiny enough, they don't need to be sharp |
| 12:54.28 | oxek | excellent, found a bug in debian packaging |
| 12:55.16 | oxek | /etc/firefox-esr/policies/policies.json does not work, it needs to be /etc/firefox/policies/policies.json |
| 12:55.52 | oxek | and... i have no way of reporting it because reportbug still does not work for me |
| 12:55.58 | oxek | and sending an email did not work either |
| 12:56.18 | Haohmaru | report a bug about reportbu.. oh wait |
| 12:56.20 | ratrace | Haohmaru: "monomolecular edge. translation? cool sword." -- Zer0 |
| 12:56.27 | oxek | so it goes into my ever-growing list of local changes to make to debian, and mini-patches that people would benefit from |
| 12:57.08 | oxek | and I can't even connect to oftc where I could theoretically catch a debian maintainer |
| 12:57.19 | Haohmaru | huh? |
| 12:57.29 | Haohmaru | try different servers |
| 12:57.31 | nvz | oxek: I have never used reportbug, I just send an email to the bts |
| 12:57.39 | oxek | Haohmaru: my home ip, my work ip, and my vpn ip are all blacklisted by oftc |
| 12:57.45 | Haohmaru | nvz that's because ur a savage |
| 12:57.46 | nvz | oxek: and furthermore the thing you describe doesnt seem like a bug to me |
| 12:57.49 | abrotman | oxek: why doesn't reportbug work? |
| 12:57.53 | nvz | Haohmaru: yes, yes I am |
| 12:57.57 | Haohmaru | oxek aww |
| 12:58.00 | oxek | nvz: the reportbug.debian.org mailserver blocks my ip |
| 12:58.06 | oxek | just like I can't access the debian wiki |
| 12:58.16 | abrotman | you can use your ISP to relay the message I believe |
| 12:58.21 | oxek | debian wiki gives me, and many other people, 403 Forbidden |
| 12:58.27 | nvz | your IP? :P I've also never used my IP to submit a bug :P |
| 12:58.47 | abrotman | oxek: have you tried while not attached to a VPN? |
| 12:58.50 | Haohmaru | change ur ISP |
| 12:58.54 | oxek | abrotman: I tried that, but the bugreport did not arrive even after a week |
| 12:59.02 | abrotman | oxek: but didn't say blocked? |
| 12:59.29 | oxek | abrotman: I spent a lot of time trying to work around it, with the help of this channel, a few weeks back, with no success |
| 12:59.47 | ratrace | in the age of such prevalent spam, using email to submit and manage a bug tracker is beyond ridiculous. |
| 13:00.03 | ksk | oxek: what mail are you using as from: when reporting a bug? :) (eg: mail@tld.com will -not- work) |
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| 13:00.10 | abrotman | Seems to work for me, even from an IP listed on the PBL |
| 13:00.10 | ratrace | (it never was a good idea to begin with, and it's even less so now) |
| 13:00.24 | oxek | ksk: tried my work email too, with no success, as well as some fake email address. |
| 13:00.32 | ksk | meh, okay.. |
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| 13:00.53 | nvz | uses gmail to submit bugs |
| 13:00.58 | ratrace | ksk: (nitpick but .com == tld) |
| 13:01.01 | oxek | but I don't want to debug that now again - it is on the list of things to look into more though, when I get a round tuit |
| 13:01.01 | abrotman | oxek: you could also try to email the maintainer directly .. not sure how effective that would be |
| 13:01.25 | ksk | ratrace: valid :) |
| 13:01.55 | ratrace | ksk: and what do you mean that wouldn't work? what kind of emails are required? |
| 13:02.01 | ratrace | *addresses |
| 13:02.06 | oxek | abrotman: was told before that patches without an entry on the bugtracker would not be looked at |
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| 13:02.23 | abrotman | oxek: probably depends on the maintainer .. but I get the point |
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| 13:02.37 | oxek | a real catch 22 issue |
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| 13:02.41 | nvz | if your 'bug' is that a path is firefox and not firefox-esr I dont see that as a bug.. local configs are in ~/.mozilla/firefox/ |
| 13:03.04 | nvz | in fact if I were gonna nit-pick I'd see the other way around as a bug |
| 13:03.05 | oxek | nvz: yet the firefox-esr package creates /etc/firefox-esr/ dir in its postinst script |
| 13:03.24 | nvz | oxek: oh, well /now/ I see your point :P |
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| 13:03.58 | ksk | ratrace: "it does not work" if your email localpart matches procmail rcs its "I forgot" Variable - somehwere on bugs.d.o that is stated.. |
| 13:04.16 | ksk | (and "mail" is in that variable on a default debian config) |
| 13:04.19 | oxek | in fact, there are no dirs created by the firefox-esr package that would just be called 'firefox', it's always 'firefox-esr' |
| 13:04.22 | ratrace | ksk: oof! |
| 13:04.32 | ratrace | even more reason bts is stoopid. |
| 13:04.53 | ksk | some grey cat told me its stuped to have an email with "mail@" ;) |
| 13:05.14 | Haohmaru | gray cats are wise cats |
| 13:05.53 | nvz | they're a lil grumpy sometimes too |
| 13:06.01 | oxek | hmm, perhaps another bug - firefox-esr package creates /etc/firefox-esr/firefox-esr.js in its postinst, but it does not get loaded because firefox expect the dir /etc/firefox/firefox-esr.js |
| 13:06.15 | oxek | and /etc/firefox-esr/firefox-esr.js contains settings that debian should load by default |
| 13:06.18 | ratrace | ksk: may be, but bts should have no business policing what's left of @ as long as it's RFC compliant. |
| 13:06.28 | makara1 | ratrace: mtr-tiny, thanks |
| 13:06.35 | ratrace | makara1: you're welcome. very nice tool. |
| 13:06.54 | nvz | oxek: I'd be happy to file these bugs on your behalf if you like fwiw |
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| 13:07.36 | nvz | with my savage methods :P |
| 13:07.38 | oxek | nvz: that would be great, but I think I should first somehow verify if firefox 78esr (the version coming to debian-stable this month) behaves differently |
| 13:07.57 | ratrace | 78 \o/ |
| 13:08.06 | oxek | unforutnately, 78esr is not maintained in testing |
| 13:08.13 | oxek | so I don't know how to get 78esr into stable |
| 13:08.24 | oxek | upstream package of course uses different dirs |
| 13:08.31 | nvz | oxek: I'd think if the maintainer made this kinda mistake they are just totally overlooking this issue.. its an oversight |
| 13:08.42 | nvz | and they'll probably continue doing things this way |
| 13:09.04 | Haohmaru | if no one reports anything.. |
| 13:09.51 | nvz | I don't use FF and I dont know what these things do.. but I could very simply explain that they're creating a path that firefox doesnt actually use.. or forward a pre-made report |
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| 13:10.20 | Haohmaru | nor do i use policy stuff, i don't even.. |
| 13:10.29 | oxek | I think it's pointless to report this for the current firefox-esr, since the patch would never land because a newer esr is coming soon |
| 13:11.06 | nvz | yeah well I think that way sometimes too with bugs in stable.. but if they don't know about it, it can just keep happening |
| 13:11.09 | oxek | and since I can't see where the newer esr is maintained, I think it's best if i just wait and then test on newer version |
| 13:11.13 | oxek | I have my workaround in the meantime |
| 13:11.21 | nvz | and this def seems like one of those things that is gonna keep happening |
| 13:12.23 | nvz | as for the comments on email and the bts.. I /hate/ email but I love the simplicity of using it for the bts :P |
| 13:13.09 | oxek | it's probably nice & simple when it works, but when it doesn't it's annoying. Plus it definitely is a barrier for new devs & maintainers. |
| 13:13.56 | nvz | I've always just used gmail to shoot a simple email with pseudoheaders to submit@bugs.debian.org and get a nice confirmation email back.. real painless |
| 13:14.15 | oxek | I found out that there's launchpad section for debian packages, and the maintainer for ubuntu & debian is sometimes the same person, so I might use that one day. |
| 13:15.00 | jelly | ,v firefox-esr |
| 13:15.01 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.3esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 68.9.0esr-1~deb8u2; stretch: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 68.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; bullseye: 68.11.0esr-1; buster-proposed-updates: 68.12.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-security: |
| 13:15.02 | judd | 68.12.0esr-1~deb10u1; sid: 78.2.0esr-1 |
| 13:15.12 | oxek | nvz: ah, that helps me - so there's a confirmation email sent back when a bug is posted? I never received one when I managed to send it. |
| 13:15.16 | jelly | oh nice, already in sid |
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| 13:15.42 | nvz | oxek: its actually called an acknowledgement, but yeah, you get an email response that has your bug number and a link to the bug |
| 13:15.57 | oxek | hmm, I might test the sid package then, somehow |
| 13:16.35 | nvz | well if all you're looking for is behavor of a postins script any of us can easily grab that and look at the postinst script |
| 13:16.38 | jelly | debootstrap a sid chroot and install it and see |
| 13:16.43 | jelly | or... that |
| 13:17.06 | nvz | but if you think theyre actually gonna modify the source to use that path.. |
| 13:17.15 | nvz | that seems unlikely :P |
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| 13:17.24 | oxek | I think I'll have to do more than just look at postinst script - because firefox might be looking in wrong directories |
| 13:17.29 | ratrace | https://sources.debian.org/src/firefox-esr/78.2.0esr-1/debian/ |
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| 13:19.28 | nvz | boggles at https://sources.debian.org/src/debian-edu-config/2.11.30/debian/changelog/?hl=2208#L2208 |
| 13:19.46 | nvz | wth is that about? debian-edu-config? |
| 13:19.53 | dka | I am on debian, each time I want to use the sound, I need to type: pulseaudio --start in the terminal, how can I make it persistent accross restart ? |
| 13:20.06 | dka | I have tried sudo systemctl enable pulseaudio, but it tells me pulseuadio.service does not exist |
| 13:20.31 | nvz | dka: are you using a DE or some kind of Xsession ? |
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| 13:21.28 | dka | I use cinnamon |
| 13:21.37 | nvz | the service file is included in the pulseaudio package btw |
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| 13:21.44 | oxek | nvz: it might be a big problem, since firefox might not be respecting various cert overrides and other things, if they are to be in /etc/firefox instead of /etc/firefox-esr |
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| 13:22.00 | dka | I dont know how to install it nvz |
| 13:22.17 | abrotman | oxek: have you validated this is an issue with a new UID on your system? |
| 13:22.35 | nvz | dka: if you're typing pulseaudio and its starting pulseaudio, then you already have it installed.. |
| 13:22.41 | nvz | ,file pulseaudio.service |
| 13:22.45 | judd | Search for pulseaudio.service in buster/amd64: pulseaudio: usr/lib/systemd/user/pulseaudio.service |
| 13:22.56 | nvz | dka: does this file not exist on your system ^? |
| 13:23.06 | dka | i have it |
| 13:23.10 | dka | how do I install it / |
| 13:23.27 | nvz | dka: you can start pulseaudio from your session manager in cinnamon.. but something tells me you shouldn't need to |
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| 13:23.46 | dka | It use to work |
| 13:23.58 | n4dir | dka: i am not much in systemd or such in general, but i just ran in something where i had to do "systemctl --user status <name-of-service" as user |
| 13:24.02 | ratrace | afaik PA is socket-activated, and sockets are used by programs that want PA |
| 13:24.07 | n4dir | you might wanna investigate in that direction |
| 13:24.14 | dka | and it stopped working will I upgraded my kernel, I did a bad manip and removed the whole kernel, I had an old one and I was able to reinstalled the removed dependencies not on purpose |
| 13:24.17 | dka | but I lost this |
| 13:24.23 | n4dir | at least here doing that with pulseaudio and status does give a result |
| 13:24.43 | n4dir | even worse than systemd is audio of curse |
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| 13:25.14 | oxek | to be fair, mozilla only mentions /etc/firefox/policies on https://github.com/mozilla/policy-templates/blob/master/README.md |
| 13:25.17 | nvz | hmm systemctl status pulseaudio says unit can't be found for me too |
| 13:25.24 | nvz | yet mine works :P |
| 13:25.31 | dka | cool |
| 13:25.33 | ratrace | nvz: systemctl --user status pulseaudio.service |
| 13:25.36 | n4dir | isn't that great? |
| 13:25.36 | jelly | dka, is dbus-user-session package installed? |
| 13:25.42 | ratrace | that --user is critical, the service is not system-wide |
| 13:25.43 | jelly | dka, and dbus-x11 ? |
| 13:25.45 | nvz | ratrace: ah right.. its a user thing |
| 13:26.01 | dka | dbus-x11 yes 1.12.20-0+deb10u1 |
| 13:26.13 | dka | dbus-user-session yes 1.12.20-0+deb10u1 |
| 13:26.43 | nvz | dka: perhaps check running as your user systemctl --user status pulseaudio |
| 13:26.47 | dka | sudo systemctl --user enable pulseaudio return Failed to connect to bus: No such file or directory |
| 13:26.51 | jelly | huh. |
| 13:27.01 | dka | Failed to connect to bus: No such file or directory |
| 13:27.03 | jelly | how are you starting X, dka |
| 13:27.04 | nvz | dka: you don't use root when doing stuff for your user's services |
| 13:27.21 | ratrace | yeah don't use sudol |
| 13:27.23 | ratrace | *sudo |
| 13:27.23 | n4dir | writes down dbus-x11 and dbuser-user-session to check later if that stops qjackctl from starting jack |
| 13:27.43 | dka | systemctl --user status pulseaudio => â pulseaudio.service, Loaded: masked (Reason: Unit pulseaudio.service is masked.), Active: inactive (dead) |
| 13:27.50 | dka | systemctl --user enable pulseaudio => Failed to enable unit: Unit file /etc/systemd/user/pulseaudio.service is masked. |
| 13:28.03 | jelly | are you using a display manager of some sort (the service providing a graphical login screen), or startx, or what? |
| 13:28.08 | nvz | I've read about masked services before but I dont recall :P |
| 13:28.15 | dka | I use the default cinnamon install |
| 13:28.24 | Haohmaru | nvz pandemic measures are getting out of hand |
| 13:28.26 | ratrace | if it's masked, then I'm guessing that didn't happen by itself |
| 13:28.29 | nvz | Haohmaru: hah |
| 13:28.32 | jelly | !which dm |
| 13:28.32 | dpkg | To figure out which Display Manager you are using, open a terminal and type the following command: `systemctl status display-manager` see also <which de> and <which x>. |
| 13:28.59 | nvz | whoo.. someone uses my factoids :P |
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| 13:29.12 | dka | As I said, I once removed the kernel and some other packages not on purpose, I was able to start up using an old kernel, I upgraded the kernel, and I reinstalled the package I removed I could think off like cinnamon, but sound was not starting up afterwards |
| 13:29.21 | dka | I need to manually run pulseaudio --start |
| 13:30.02 | dka | â lightdm.service - Light Display Manager, 983 ExecStartPre=/bin/sh -c [ "$(cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager, /system.slice/lightdm.service, /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg ... |
| 13:30.20 | jelly | hmph. |
| 13:31.40 | nvz | dka: you do realize the package system now keeps logs right? |
| 13:31.57 | nvz | you keep sounding like you have no idea what happened |
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| 13:33.25 | dka | logs http://paste.debian.net/1163747/ |
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| 13:33.41 | dka | nvz, it's not true, I have clear idea that I had no idea when it happened |
| 13:33.51 | nvz | heh |
| 13:34.09 | dka | I know that I don't know, does it help? |
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| 13:35.12 | nvz | has never seen things like this |
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| 13:37.31 | ratrace | "Error opening PCM device hw:0,0: Device or resource busy" -- you sure something else is not running and (ab)using ALSA directly? |
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| 13:39.04 | nvz | dka: is this current stuff in that log you pasted or before you did this kernel related stuff? |
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| 13:39.55 | nvz | dka: the masked service is probably due to there being a symlink in /usr/lib/systemd/pluseaudio.service to /dev/null as to /why/ this happened idk |
| 13:40.14 | nvz | dka: simply removing that symlink if it exists as such pointing to /dev/null would unmask it |
| 13:41.17 | nvz | you'd need to then do systemctl daemon-reload for the changes to take effect while its running |
| 13:41.36 | n4dir | jelly: did you mean that the problems might occur if not running a display manager? |
| 13:42.07 | n4dir | cause as said i have similar problems, but didn't investigate any further yet. Only a message bout "dbus" got stuck |
| 13:42.36 | ratrace | I think daemon-reload is not required for symlink modifications (for en/dis/abling or masking)? Only for modifying unit files |
| 13:42.47 | dka | no sym link => -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 915 Aug 15 2019 /usr/lib/systemd/user/pulseaudio.service |
| 13:42.58 | nvz | yeah thats not what I said |
| 13:43.12 | ratrace | dka: the symlinks are under /etc, /usr/lib/ is immutable for user managemnet |
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| 13:43.45 | oxek | the wonders of life... it all started with trying to get rid of a unicorn... |
| 13:43.59 | dka | `ls -altr /etc | grep audio` and `ls -altr /usr/lib | grep audio` both return no symlink |
| 13:44.08 | nvz | and actually I think I was wrong it would be in /lib/systemd/pulseaudio.service |
| 13:44.44 | ratrace | no, you need one more subdirectory |
| 13:45.03 | nvz | ah, /lib/systemd/system/ |
| 13:45.06 | ratrace | btw, user services aren't even managed in /etc/ |
| 13:45.27 | ratrace | and you don' tneed to find and manipulate symlinks. systemctl --user enable pulseaudio.service would unmask it |
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| 13:45.50 | nvz | I thought they said they ran that earlier and it said it was masked |
| 13:45.52 | dka | systemctl --user enable pulseaudio.service |
| 13:45.53 | dka | Failed to enable unit: Unit file /etc/systemd/user/pulseaudio.service is masked. |
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| 13:46.05 | nvz | which means its masked by root probably |
| 13:46.19 | nvz | and I have a lot of links to /dev/null in /lib/systemd/system/ |
| 13:46.26 | dka | you mean change owner here ? => -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 915 Aug 15 2019 /usr/lib/systemd/user/pulseaudio.service |
| 13:46.28 | nvz | but pulseaudio.service isn't one of em |
| 13:46.41 | nvz | dka: no, that is the ACTUAL service file |
| 13:46.48 | ratrace | then try systemctl --user unmask pulseaudio.service |
| 13:46.55 | nvz | the links to /dev/null are the masks |
| 13:47.25 | dka | http://paste.debian.net/1163749/ |
| 13:47.52 | ratrace | gah |
| 13:48.10 | nvz | dka: is there a /lib/systemd/system/pulseaudio.service ? |
| 13:49.09 | ratrace | shouldn't be, pulseaudio is not supposed to be run as a system service, and normally there's no such unit. |
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| 13:50.09 | nvz | yeah.. well it shouldnt be masked either |
| 13:50.11 | nvz | heh |
| 13:50.18 | nvz | yet it is |
| 13:50.42 | nvz | or at least systemd thinks it is |
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| 13:52.49 | n4dir | perhaps something like that might help: for i in $(locate pulseaudio.service); do ls -l "$i" ; done |
| 13:53.08 | n4dir | cause my paths sure are different (but then: on debian based right now) |
| 13:53.35 | nvz | the other possible location for a symlink to /dev/null would be ~/.config/systemd/user/pulseaudio.service |
| 13:53.35 | n4dir | I'd probably just locate and then ls manually |
| 13:54.02 | nvz | but thing is, a user would be able to remove that |
| 13:54.09 | nvz | since the user can't unmask it.. |
| 13:54.17 | nvz | its gotta be somewhere they can't touch it |
| 13:54.20 | jelly | ... somewhere, greycat is feeling gravely ill |
| 13:54.38 | nvz | heh |
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| 13:55.28 | Haohmaru | mv greycat graycat |
| 13:55.46 | nvz | how/why it got masked in the first place is plenty curious, but also irrelevant to the issue |
| 13:56.36 | nvz | what seems painfully obvious to me is somewhere in one of systemd's paths you got a file called pulseaudio.service linked to /dev/null and your user doesnt have permissions to it |
| 13:56.53 | nvz | problem is, systemd is all over the f'n place :P |
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| 13:57.07 | n4dir | hence locate. or find, if that feels more leet |
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| 13:58.48 | jelly | nvz, the output told exactly where that was |
| 13:58.57 | jelly | no need to locate |
| 13:59.21 | jelly | <dka> Failed to enable unit: Unit file /etc/systemd/user/pulseaudio.service is masked. <-- |
| 13:59.33 | jelly | that's where the symlink is |
| 13:59.40 | nvz | doh |
| 13:59.52 | nvz | and probably owned by root |
| 13:59.59 | dka | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 Aug 23 01:12 /etc/systemd/user/pulseaudio.service -> /dev/null |
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| 14:00.08 | dka | how should I do nolw that jelly found it |
| 14:00.14 | jelly | rm it, log off, log back on |
| 14:00.15 | nvz | hence systemctl --user can't get rid of it |
| 14:00.22 | jelly | see if there's any difference |
| 14:00.36 | nvz | question is how the hell did /that/ happen? :P |
| 14:00.44 | jelly | maybe it's default |
| 14:01.10 | dka | I just removed it, I will not reboot now |
| 14:01.16 | dka | What should I do later when I'll restart? |
| 14:01.17 | jelly | maybe something else is supposed to start pulseaudio, I don't have a buster with cinnamon to see |
| 14:01.18 | nvz | when I run as my user "systemctl --user mask pulseaudio" I get ~/.config/systemd/user/pulseaudio.service -> /dev/null |
| 14:01.30 | nvz | I have a VM with buster |
| 14:01.39 | nvz | erm.. buster and cinnamon |
| 14:01.50 | jelly | dka, didn't say reboot. Log out. Log back in. |
| 14:02.02 | dka | That will close all my running services |
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| 14:02.26 | jelly | all your apps, yes. I hope you don't run services in the login sessions. |
| 14:02.44 | dka | ok I'll reboot brb |
| 14:02.56 | jelly | why not just log out? |
| 14:04.16 | nvz | yeah on my cinnamon vm there is no such mask.. pulseaudio is running via systemd as the user |
| 14:05.37 | nvz | never did finish setting up all the different DE in virt-manager so I don't have to go in and get the other machine to fire up virtualbox |
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| 14:09.39 | tw | I don't think masked is the default for any service. afaik, debian doesn't drop any service units in /etc/systemd; all the os provided stuff is in /usr. |
| 14:10.25 | tw | but that's neither here nor there, `sudo systemctl unmask pulseaudio.service` |
| 14:10.58 | nvz | tw: there are links to /dev/null galore in /lib/systemd/system/ for me |
| 14:11.48 | nvz | file /lib/systemd/system* | grep "/dev/null" |
| 14:11.54 | nvz | idk what thats about |
| 14:12.26 | tw | oh, maybe it's /lib and not /usr/lib that's used by debian. Either way, *not* /etc/systemd, because that's local override. |
| 14:12.33 | dka | perfect, sound is back on startup |
| 14:12.44 | jelly | tw, be careful with that command line, we're talking about the per-user service, not a global one |
| 14:13.14 | nvz | yeah well being that systemd is still black magic to me.. I couldnt assume that system masks wouldnt affect user services |
| 14:13.22 | tw | jelly: pulseaudio is a special case because it needs the system service to be running so the user service can run. |
| 14:13.39 | tw | afaik. |
| 14:14.00 | nvz | there isn't a system service for it |
| 14:14.21 | jelly | good |
| 14:14.28 | tw | Well then I'm full of shit. |
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| 14:14.55 | jelly | at least you're honest about it! |
| 14:14.57 | petn-randall | I'd put it in nicer terms, but yeah :) |
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| 14:15.59 | nvz | tw: maybe try a laxative |
| 14:16.30 | n4dir | black magic isn't even close to how i feel about it. |
| 14:16.35 | nvz | heh |
| 14:16.58 | n4dir | and as soon that feeling is gone someone will come up with the idea of a much better solution |
| 14:17.29 | nvz | I haven't heard anything yet about my recent bug report on systemd |
| 14:17.53 | n4dir | me neither :-) |
| 14:18.50 | nvz | though I did make a typo in the subject line :P |
| 14:19.18 | nvz | #970219 |
| 14:19.20 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/970219 in systemd (open): «kernel boot messages are not longer reliably kept by default»; severity: important; opened: 2020-09-13; last modified: 2020-09-13. |
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| 14:19.52 | nvz | hmm.. I thought I did that several days ago now :P |
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| 14:24.25 | tux_de_botina | folks... somebody can help me with bluetoogh dongle ? |
| 14:24.56 | nvz | idk where you are, but I doubt my arms are long enough.. if it doesnt plug in, try flipping it over |
| 14:25.08 | tux_de_botina | can someone help me with bluetooth dongle? |
| 14:25.23 | diogenes_ | !ask | tux_de_botina |
| 14:25.33 | tux_de_botina | diogenes_: Can't init device hci0: Invalid request code (56) |
| 14:25.45 | tux_de_botina | diogenes_: when i up hci0 device |
| 14:25.52 | tux_de_botina | diogenes_: bluetooth power on |
| 14:26.06 | tux_de_botina | diogenes_: my lcusb |
| 14:26.12 | tux_de_botina | diogenes_: Bus 005 Device 003: ID 0a12:0001 Cambridge Silicon Radio, Ltd Bluetooth Dongle (HCI mode) |
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| 14:29.06 | diogenes_ | tux_de_botina, do you have blueman bluetooth bluez-firmware libbluetooth3 bluez installed? |
| 14:30.59 | oxek | jelly: this indeed works, as tested on another machine 'dpkg --force-depends --purge firefox-esr' |
| 14:31.06 | oxek | no need to deal with equivs |
| 14:31.08 | oxek | thank you |
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| 14:34.30 | nvz | tux_de_botina: I'd recommend enabling backports and installing the backports kernel |
| 14:35.15 | tux_de_botina | diogenes_: hummm let me see |
| 14:35.59 | tux_de_botina | diogenes_: nooo... i go to install |
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| 14:36.19 | nvz | there is mention of a vast number of different devices using that same usbid, and a recent kernel patch regarding that device |
| 14:36.48 | tux_de_botina | nvz: im using 5.7.9 |
| 14:36.53 | tux_de_botina | nvz: compiled by me |
| 14:36.57 | nvz | heh |
| 14:37.08 | diogenes_ | :) |
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| 14:37.39 | nvz | has a knack for sniffin this stuff out |
| 14:38.45 | nvz | tux_de_botina: well, if you still have problems my recommendation stands |
| 14:38.52 | tux_de_botina | nvz: great |
| 14:39.02 | tux_de_botina | i need reboot after install bluez-firmware? |
| 14:39.11 | nvz | and if the backports kernel works, I suggest you go back to the drawing board with that kernel |
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| 14:39.37 | nvz | tux_de_botina: you'd only need to reload the modules, but feel free to reboot.. perhaps after installing a backports kernel, if you like :P |
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| 14:39.52 | tux_de_botina | nvz: hummm thansk |
| 14:40.05 | diogenes_ | try reboot if won't work then see what nvz suggests. |
| 14:41.01 | nvz | I been compiling kernels for nearly two decades.. and the first 5.x kernel I made, booted, things worked.. but then I realized I only had two CPUs showin up.. so.. |
| 14:41.06 | nvz | yeah.. you can make mistakes |
| 14:41.24 | tux_de_botina | true |
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| 15:10.50 | JyZyXEL | such shouldn't happen with olddefconfig *knockknock* |
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| 15:13.13 | dka | How do I undo `sudo chattr +i /etc/resolv.conf` ? |
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| 15:16.39 | petn-randall | dka: Have you tried 'sudo chattr -i /etc/resolv.conf'? |
| 15:16.48 | nvz | dka: from the fine manual of chattr.. "The operator '+' causes the selected attributes to be added to the existing attributes of the files; '-' causes them to be removed |
| 15:17.07 | petn-randall | Yeah, that's also like the 3rd sentence in the man page. |
| 15:17.08 | jelly | petn-randall, that sounds too obvious |
| 15:17.13 | nvz | heh |
| 15:17.27 | nvz | I was just gonna say it.. but I figured I'd quote the manual |
| 15:17.44 | nvz | as it did seem painfully obvious |
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| 16:07.44 | istrive | hello all! |
| 16:08.18 | oxek | what do you strive for? |
| 16:08.21 | istrive | anybody here uses pihole? or would know where should I find support for it? |
| 16:08.40 | oxek | istrive: #pihole |
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| 16:09.19 | istrive | thank you! |
| 16:09.31 | istrive | I didn't know they have a channel... |
| 16:09.58 | oxek | /msg alis list pihole |
| 16:10.00 | oxek | for next time |
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| 16:12.22 | tga | greetings. I'm looking for a good full system backup strategy/solution/guide out there. any recommendations? |
| 16:12.58 | tga | ideally of a running ext4 root filesystem -- I'm thinking lvm snapshots or something |
| 16:14.22 | petn-randall | tga: How many machines do you want to backup, and how many backup timestamps do you intend to keep? |
| 16:15.07 | mutante | https://packages.debian.org/buster/bacula |
| 16:15.30 | tga | petn-randall: personal stuff, so <10 machines, weekly/monthly/yearly snapshots would be ideal |
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| 16:15.57 | tga | I've been using Borg for backing up individual directories, but I don't have a good strategy for full running system backup and recovery |
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| 16:17.18 | petn-randall | tga: Ah, I'm also using borgbackup for that. I created a simple shell script that creates LVM snapshots, mounts them, backups it to borg, unmounts and then deletes the LVM snapshots. |
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| 16:17.22 | nkuttler | tga: i'm satisfied with backuppc |
| 16:17.36 | nkuttler | borg doesn't deduplicate across hosts though afaik |
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| 16:18.13 | petn-randall | tga: Nice thing about borg is the deduplication feature, so you don't really need to delete backups. Downside is that single bit flips might destroy your only copy. |
| 16:18.45 | petn-randall | nkuttler: It does, if you backup to the same repo. However, only a single backup can be done into a repo at the same time. So if you have a large number of hosts, that becomes the bottleneck. |
| 16:18.51 | tga | petn-randall: apparently many people put together a few scripts but I was hoping for a canned solution, so I don't have to reinvent the wheel |
| 16:19.03 | ElementalWindX | Does anyone know how to get debian to boot with kde plasma starting immediately? I've installed kde plasma, but when the vm boots, it goes to command line, and I have to login and then type startx to get a GUI |
| 16:19.23 | petn-randall | ElementalWindX: You need to install a login manager. |
| 16:20.04 | tga | afaik borg breaks everything in the repo up into small pieces and saves them in hashed chunks |
| 16:20.09 | petn-randall | It should actually be automatically installed if you installed the complete kde suite. |
| 16:20.29 | tga | so it will even deduplicate parts of different files that are the same |
| 16:21.14 | tga | I also have cloud backup covered with rclone to b2/s3/etc |
| 16:21.15 | petn-randall | Yeah, it does sliding chunking, so even if you prepend a few bytes to a file, it will be deduplicated. |
| 16:22.13 | tga | petn-randall: how can you easily do a full system restore from borg backups of a lvm snapshot? |
| 16:23.09 | tga | boot from a live usb and just have borg dump all the files on disk, then chroot and run grub? |
| 16:24.10 | petn-randall | tga: Probably, yeah. You'll have to adjust any filesystem UUIDs in /etc/fstab, though. |
| 16:24.21 | petn-randall | Probably a few more places, depending on how you use the system. |
| 16:24.40 | tga | see, that's the part I don't like |
| 16:24.58 | tga | is there anything that will do this end to end? |
| 16:25.05 | tga | really wants time machine |
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| 16:26.24 | ElementalWindX | @petn-randall how do I install a login manager? The last 4~ vm's I've made all act this way for some reason :/ |
| 16:26.25 | petn-randall | tga: Do full disk backups then. |
| 16:26.33 | tga | can you maybe dump the lvm snapshot as a single binary, and backup deltas? |
| 16:26.38 | petn-randall | ElementalWindX: How did you install KDE? |
| 16:27.32 | tga | petn-randall: or what's a good way of doing full disk backups of running systems? |
| 16:27.35 | petn-randall | tga: You'll have the same problem since you're not backing up the metadata (LVM, partition tables) |
| 16:28.02 | petn-randall | tga: That in itself is impossible. Either do full disk backups, or online backups. Both is not possible. |
| 16:28.53 | CyberManifest | tga: there's time shift and deja-dup |
| 16:29.02 | ElementalWindX | @petn-randall I used the debian installer wizard when initially installing debian |
| 16:29.04 | petn-randall | tga: You really got to ask yourself how much work you're willing to do upfront to make your life in case of a recovery easier. For me, just documenting the steps needed is good enough for me. |
| 16:29.24 | tga | oh I don't mind the work, I'm mostly worried I'll screw something up |
| 16:29.35 | tga | and backups have to be online, otherwise they'll never get done |
| 16:29.53 | tga | can lvm do an online backup of a whole lv and then dump it on any pv of at least the same size? |
| 16:30.05 | petn-randall | tga: Then restore your backup to a different machine/VM, and write down the steps needed. IMHO if time isn't of the essence, you can also just figure it out as you go. |
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| 16:30.48 | petn-randall | tga: If you do byte-level backups, sure. But I don't see any advantage really. |
| 16:30.57 | tga | single click restore |
| 16:31.18 | petn-randall | tga: The steps needed are still the same, you're backing up a snapshot that has different UUIDs. |
| 16:31.38 | tga | why would it have different uuids though, doesn't lvm abstract that? |
| 16:31.48 | petn-randall | Only downside is that you're also backing up data that has already been deleted, too. |
| 16:32.03 | petn-randall | With no advantages. |
| 16:32.23 | petn-randall | tga: filesystems still have UUIDs, whether you use LVM or not. |
| 16:32.47 | tga | right, but if you backup an entire pv and then restore it on another disk, won't the fs remain the same? |
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| 16:32.51 | tga | same uuids, everything |
| 16:33.08 | petn-randall | Sure, but then you're doing offline backups. |
| 16:33.16 | CyberManifest | tga no, different uuids, I can confirm |
| 16:33.18 | tga | of a lvm snapshot |
| 16:33.31 | tga | so online in the sense that the system doesn't have to stop |
| 16:33.37 | tga | or am I missing something here? |
| 16:33.39 | petn-randall | Err, that doesn't make sense. |
| 16:33.57 | tga | what I'd really like is to dd the root file system and keep the binary, then restore it after the disk dies |
| 16:33.57 | CyberManifest | wait, never mind, I was doing clean installs on the same medium |
| 16:33.59 | petn-randall | How are you going to backup PVs online? Those backups won't be consistent. |
| 16:34.20 | ElementalWindX | I even typed "systemctl set-default graphical.target" and rebooted and it still goes into headless mode -_- |
| 16:34.22 | tga | so what I'm thinking, can I have lvm freeze the fs into a snapshot, and then dump that snapshot as a single binary |
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| 16:34.36 | petn-randall | ElementalWindX: How did you install KDE then? |
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| 16:34.43 | ElementalWindX | @petn-randall I used the debian installer wizard when initially installing debian |
| 16:34.54 | petn-randall | tga: Then you're backing up a binary, not the PV. |
| 16:34.55 | tga | (I guess I'd need a ton of external space for that, so it would have to happen on an external disk) |
| 16:35.10 | petn-randall | ElementalWindX: So you selected KDE there? |
| 16:35.22 | tga | petn-randall: in this case isn't the pv image the same as a vm disk image? |
| 16:35.25 | ElementalWindX | yep. |
| 16:35.30 | tga | so I can dump it on another lv and have it just work |
| 16:35.31 | ElementalWindX | I checked the first check box and kde |
| 16:35.39 | petn-randall | tga: no ... |
| 16:35.53 | tga | ah so that's what I'm missing then |
| 16:35.55 | tga | why? |
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| 16:36.42 | tga | damn I think I was referring to them swapped. I want to backup the *l*v as an image |
| 16:36.48 | petn-randall | tga: You need to understand how LVM snapshots work, and then you'll understand that backing up the disk from beginning to end during operation will give you an incosistent backup. |
| 16:37.13 | tga | how is that a snapshot then? |
| 16:37.19 | petn-randall | ElementalWindX: Are you using the Debian stable installer? Or a different one? |
| 16:37.34 | tga | when you read it, isn't the snapshot the same as a frozen copy of the lv? |
| 16:37.59 | petn-randall | tga: Yes, but you're then not backing up any UUIDs, so they will be different. |
| 16:38.19 | petn-randall | tga: The snapshot doesn't have the same UUID as the original, for sanity reasons. |
| 16:38.54 | petn-randall | tga: But unless I'm understanding your idea wrong, your plan was to back up the PV? |
| 16:38.58 | tga | so then when you restore it e.g. fstab would have to be changed? |
| 16:39.24 | petn-randall | tga: correct. |
| 16:39.31 | ElementalWindX | yes the debian stable installer |
| 16:39.32 | tga | no, I said that wrong, I'm thinking pv=disk lv=virtual machine disk -- so I want to make a full copy of the lv, as you would copy paste a vm |
| 16:39.55 | tga | and I was thinking I could restore as easily as copying back the lv on a new pv |
| 16:40.20 | petn-randall | tga: ... on a new LV, you mean? |
| 16:40.30 | tga | no, on a new physical volume |
| 16:40.47 | tga | new disk, create new lvm partition, new physical volume, and then copy back the whole logical volume with data |
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| 16:41.11 | petn-randall | tga: Copying a LV onto a PV will give you something broken. |
| 16:41.13 | tga | as you would copy a virtual machine on a new computer |
| 16:42.03 | tga | it's just an idea, it might not be how lvm works in practice :-\ |
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| 16:42.31 | Bushmaster | Hello folks, i am having a problem, I created a bootable USB dflash drive of LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) ISO. It was fruitless and now I cant get rid of any of the files from that flash drives, neither I can format the drive in gparted either here is the output of the flash drive https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/F4kZRjJJMt/ |
| 16:42.41 | petn-randall | The contents of a LV are usually a filesystem, the contents of a PV is usually metadata for LVM, and also the actual data of whatever might be on there right now (might be nothing, might be *some* of a LV, might be several LVs). |
| 16:43.01 | ElementalWindX | I guess when I go to do the install I should uncheck the first checkbox for regular desktop, and only select the KDE desktop checkbox |
| 16:43.19 | tga | right |
| 16:43.39 | petn-randall | Bushmaster: Is this on a Debian machine? |
| 16:43.40 | tga | I'll set up a vm and play a bit with lvm, I'll be back after I figure out exactly how things work |
| 16:43.51 | tga | petn-randall: thanks! |
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| 16:44.28 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, yes, I used this site step 4 to create ISO https://vitux.com/how-to-create-a-bootable-usb-stick-from-the-ubuntu-terminal/ |
| 16:44.49 | petn-randall | tga: Have fun! I'd go with backups from LVM snapshots, and then just document the 1-3 files you need to fix on a restore. Perfection is the enemy of doable. ;) |
| 16:45.12 | petn-randall | Bushmaster: Ah, so you finally installed Debian? |
| 16:45.13 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, it did not work, in terms of booting LMDE from flash drive, so I need to delete all its content but it wont allow me |
| 16:45.52 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, no I am using Debian for many years, but alongside Debian, I have PCLinuxOS which I want to get rid of and install LMDE |
| 16:46.06 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, i am using Debian |
| 16:47.04 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, all I need help is to format that flash drive if anyone can help me with that, i would appreciate, I tried with gparted and it wont do it |
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| 16:48.21 | petn-randall | Bushmaster: You can't delete the contents, because it's an ISO filesystem. You need to create a new partition table with gparted. |
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| 16:49.01 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, I tried, it wont do it, let me try again now, flash drive is already inserted into USB port hence mounted |
| 16:49.14 | ElementalWindX | "debian desktop environment" is the first checkbox. I just wiped the whole vm and starting over again without that checked.... |
| 16:50.01 | petn-randall | Bushmaster: You might want to be more specific about what exactly fails. |
| 16:50.59 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, let me send you screen shot |
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| 16:56.19 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, here is the output from gparted, it cant do it and give this error messages https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/KtnBnxF8YR/ |
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| 16:57.51 | petn-randall | Bushmaster: "mkfs.fat: /dev/sdb1 contains a mounted filesystem." Try unmounting the filesystem first. |
| 16:58.10 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, umount /deb/sdb1 right? |
| 16:58.19 | petn-randall | Bushmaster: yes |
| 16:58.31 | Bushmaster | and then get into gparted again and try okay |
| 16:58.52 | petn-randall | yes |
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| 16:59.50 | ElementalWindX | Ok so I ONLY checked "KDE" and it still boots to headless mode -_____- |
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| 16:59.59 | petn-randall | !which dm |
| 17:00.00 | dpkg | To figure out which Display Manager you are using, open a terminal and type the following command: `systemctl status display-manager` see also <which de> and <which x>. |
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| 17:00.22 | petn-randall | Err, wrong factoid. |
| 17:00.34 | petn-randall | ElementalWindX: Find out which login manager you're using, and check why it doesn't start. |
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| 17:01.52 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, this time it was successful |
| 17:02.16 | petn-randall | yay \o/ |
| 17:03.01 | Bushmaster | now I have downloaded the LMDE ISO from mint website, what is the best way to make it bootable USB ISO, I tried with Unetbootin and when I went to BIOS and changed to boot from USB device, it says ISO.bin corrupted or something like that |
| 17:03.54 | sney | I have heard that mint uses hybrid images, like debian. so you can probably write that iso directly to the usb drive, without converting it |
| 17:04.08 | sney | however, mint isn't supported here, so any follow-up questions will have to go to the mint people |
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| 17:06.04 | ElementalWindX | @petn-randall how do I find that out? |
| 17:06.57 | Bushmaster | my question is how to make bootable USB in Debian because I am using Debian sney petn-randall |
| 17:07.58 | sney | cp file.iso /dev/sdX;sync |
| 17:08.24 | oxek | thinks linux mint should just drop the ubuntu version and focus on the debian edition |
| 17:09.58 | ElementalWindX | It looks like I'm using "ii sddm 0.18.0-1 modern display manager for x11, and sddm-theme-debian-maui |
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| 17:10.35 | petn-randall | Bushmaster: You might want to be more specific about what exactly fails.`systemctl status display-manager` |
| 17:10.54 | petn-randall | Woops, scrollback failure, ignore this, Bushmaster. |
| 17:11.15 | petn-randall | ElementalWindX: Actually, the factoid was right. You should be able to check it with `systemctl status display-manager`. |
| 17:11.45 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, I am off now, I still need to find a way to make bootable USB ISO |
| 17:12.06 | petn-randall | Bushmaster: sney told you already. |
| 17:12.30 | Bushmaster | petn-randall, he told me i am talking off topic and nothing else |
| 17:12.34 | ElementalWindX | it says it's active (running) in green |
| 17:13.02 | petn-randall | Bushmaster: 19:07 < sney > cp file.iso /dev/sdX;sync |
| 17:13.03 | sney | Bushmaster: I told you 'cp file.iso /dev/sdX; sync' which is the same instructions for writing a bootable iso as contained in the Debian install guide. |
| 17:13.12 | sney | Bushmaster: if that's not good enough, I'm not sure what to tell you. |
| 17:13.53 | oxek | ElementalWindX: if all fails, checkout ventoy |
| 17:14.05 | petn-randall | ElementalWindX: Maybe you want to switch terminal with ctrl + alt + F1 to F6 to find it. I think it's on F1. |
| 17:14.33 | Bushmaster | its okay sney thanks, I did not see that, perhaps cos my nick was not attached to it, not sure about the command you provided but i will get back some other time, i need to go now, thanks for all the help petn-randall and sney too |
| 17:14.42 | oxek | Bushmaster: if all fails, checkout ventoy |
| 17:14.44 | sney | X isn't on TTY7 anymore? |
| 17:14.47 | oxek | sorry ElementalWindX didn't mean to tag you |
| 17:14.56 | oxek | sney: gdm3 puts it on TTY1 |
| 17:15.43 | sney | hm, the changes you miss when your hardware is reliable |
| 17:16.43 | petn-randall | sney: I think it's on tty1 nowadays, with tty2 being the actual session. |
| 17:17.03 | oxek | debian xfce still puts it on tty7 |
| 17:17.26 | petn-randall | Might have to do with wayland? xfce is still on X11 IIRC. |
| 17:17.55 | sney | yes, only gnome is wayland-enabled in buster |
| 17:18.28 | sney | sddm tells me that Xorg is running on vt7 on my system |
| 17:18.41 | sney | I guess we're still in the inconsistent stage of that changeover |
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| 17:24.59 | ElementalWindX | @petn-randall ctrl + alt + f* doesn't fix it |
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| 17:30.07 | beo | hi, how do i update openssl on stretch to 1.1.1? |
| 17:31.10 | GNU\colossus | you don't (unless it's in backports) |
| 17:31.12 | GNU\colossus | ,v openssl |
| 17:31.14 | judd | Package: openssl on amd64 -- jessie: 1.0.1t-1+deb8u8; jessie-security: 1.0.1t-1+deb8u12; stretch: 1.1.0l-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 1.1.0l-1~deb9u1; buster: 1.1.1d-0+deb10u3; buster-security: 1.1.1d-0+deb10u3; bullseye: 1.1.1g-1; sid: 1.1.1g-1; experimental: 3.0.0~~alpha4-1 |
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| 17:32.22 | beo | some way to use buster package? |
| 17:33.35 | GNU\colossus | sure: properly upgrading to buster |
| 17:34.31 | beo | cant do |
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| 17:35.28 | beo | cant update kernel, vps limitation |
| 17:36.35 | mutante | upgrade all packages except the kernel package? |
| 17:36.52 | GNU\colossus | in that case (if you are using the host kernel), your debian installation probably doesn't even have a kernel-image package installed |
| 17:37.10 | beo | mutante: it was the other package that required updated kernel |
| 17:37.18 | GNU\colossus | which package? |
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| 17:37.35 | beo | i need to remember |
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| 17:38.38 | beo | libc, but im not sure |
| 17:38.54 | GNU\colossus | what host kernel are you forced to share/use? |
| 17:38.59 | GNU\colossus | (which version) |
| 17:40.16 | beo | 2.6.32-042stab128.2 |
| 17:40.33 | GNU\colossus | that's CentOS/EL6? |
| 17:40.51 | GNU\colossus | you could try creating a buster chroot in your container, and see if executing stuff in there works. |
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| 17:44.05 | petn-randall | beo: I'd probably pick a hoster that allows you to pick the release. |
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| 17:45.51 | beo | thanks colossus, im not sure thats possible |
| 17:46.20 | beo | petn-randall: i can choose latest Ubuntu, CentOS and Debian up to stretch :) |
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| 17:46.51 | jelly | beo, ask the container-based VPS provider to get a newer OpenVZ / Virtuozzo kernel |
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| 17:47.29 | beo | yeah, i guess, its a longshot though |
| 17:48.16 | jelly | or migrate to a more decent provider, if possible. I got a 512MB KVM VM for 2 euro a month |
| 17:48.24 | petn-randall | beo: buster has been out over a year now. I'm also guessing won't be able to boot current Ubuntu releases. |
| 17:49.05 | jelly | OpenVZ lists their 2.6.32 EL6 based kernel as both "stable" and "EOL: Nov 2019" at the same time |
| 17:49.25 | jelly | https://wiki.openvz.org/Download/kernel or maybe their wiki is just out of date |
| 17:49.46 | jelly | still, 3.10 has a chance of running current glibc |
| 17:50.00 | beo | i will probably buy other vps and use this one for something else |
| 17:50.02 | beo | so it seems |
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| 17:51.05 | jelly | nod. Backporting openssl might work, but then you have to take care of security issues by yourself, forever |
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| 17:52.04 | Whyvn | how frequent are new linux-images added to apt? |
| 17:52.28 | ElementalWindX | Sounds like nobody can help me with this gui issue? :( |
| 17:52.34 | ElementalWindX | Not being able to load into kde |
| 17:52.37 | ElementalWindX | on bootup |
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| 17:53.20 | somiaj | Whyvn: since apt is just a piece of software...and it depends on the version of debian you are using. Debian stable, new kernels are only security fixes, and seem to come 1-2 per point release (multiple months). Backports get new version about every month or so. |
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| 17:53.56 | Whyvn | somiaj: thank you |
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| 18:26.07 | hussar | package management on linux upsets me so much. This has to be the dumbest system ever created |
| 18:27.40 | hussar | how the hell am I supposed to know which packages I actually installed and what commands the gave me. There's no record of what I installed with the order I installed them that I can look at |
| 18:27.45 | mutante | seems to me like it's a pretty complex problem to solve |
| 18:28.11 | mutante | hussar: /var/log/apt/history.log dpkg --get-selections |
| 18:28.15 | mutante | dpkg -l |
| 18:28.15 | dpkg | Files in package mutante-pr0n: /srv/mutante-pr0n/mutante.jpg |
| 18:28.21 | mutante | lol |
| 18:28.29 | mutante | wtf is that :) |
| 18:28.53 | somiaj | hussar: you might want to clarify, but in debian the package manager is very nice, there is full record (including md5 sums) of ever file that you installed, its exact location, and lists of all the packages currently installed. |
| 18:29.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1173] by debhelper |
| 18:29.05 | hussar | they could just have apt write append a line to a log file every time you install and build stats and history info from it. That's not that complex |
| 18:29.06 | somiaj | mutante: dpkg gives snarky responses when you start a line with dpkg. |
| 18:29.21 | hussar | doesn't md5sum have a lot of problems now? |
| 18:29.25 | mutante | somiaj: ack, that was funny :) |
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| 18:29.43 | somiaj | hussar: /var/log/apt contains a full history of every file installed by apt, there is also /var/log/dpkg.log |
| 18:30.32 | somiaj | hussar: not really, it does a good job for checking intergurity of individual files inside a package. This isn't the hash being used to verify the idtergurity of the package, that is different. |
| 18:30.38 | hussar | somiaj: great, now how do i get the list of commands I created and order I installed them |
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| 18:31.20 | somiaj | the apt log has the exact command you ran in it and the dates |
| 18:31.29 | mutante | hussar: dpkg -L <package name> shows all files installed by a package |
| 18:31.43 | mutante | commands are the ones in some "bin" directory |
| 18:32.24 | somiaj | oh you wanted the binaries installed. usually the binary name is similar to the package name, but as mutante said, you can get a full list of every file installed by the package with the command they shared. |
| 18:32.55 | hussar | somiaj: that doesn't answer my question very well |
| 18:33.16 | somiaj | hussar: your question is vague. What package did you install that you want to know the binaries of? |
| 18:34.04 | hussar | now i'm supposed to look the all the directories in the path variable and guess which packages created them with no context of when or why I installed the packages. What if I accidentally delete the wrong package? |
| 18:34.21 | somiaj | If you want to know which package owns a file, dpkg -S /path/to/file |
| 18:34.22 | hussar | *through the |
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| 18:34.49 | sponix2ipfw | hussar: if you want to see the commands ran the shell has history also |
| 18:34.49 | mutante | how is the computer supposed to know WHY you install packages though |
| 18:35.02 | sponix2ipfw | mutante: AI |
| 18:35.02 | mutante | hussar: ls /sbin && ls /bin | sort ? |
| 18:35.10 | *** part/#debian beo (~ident@unaffiliated/beo-/x-2379943) |
| 18:35.47 | mutante | well, not exactly, but something similar. they should mostly be in /bin and /sbin |
| 18:35.58 | mutante | if they were installed by packages, so not /usr/local/bin |
| 18:36.22 | somiaj | mutante: aptitude why packagename .... (: |
| 18:36.36 | hussar | Also, a file belonging to a package doesn't mean it was a package I manually installed. It could have been created by a dependency of a manually installed package. Which is the problem I'm having now with qemu and it's 100 different commands |
| 18:36.39 | mutante | somiaj: hah! ok, fair enough :) |
| 18:37.03 | somiaj | hussar: What is your actual problem? |
| 18:37.35 | somiaj | hussar: yes debian is a shared libary system, so lots of packages get installed, but this shouldnt' be an issue, as apt will take care of the resolution for you. |
| 18:38.11 | hussar | viewing what packages i've installed, their dependencies, and their related commands with the context of when and how they were created is very complex and in some cases is impossible |
| 18:38.13 | somiaj | hussar: are you here just to complain about debian, or do you have an actual issue on debian stable you would like help solving? |
| 18:38.17 | hussar | that's my problem |
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| 18:38.54 | hussar | somiaj: both |
| 18:38.55 | somiaj | yes, the package dependencies are complex, apt/dpkg has lots of tools that you can access any of that information you need, but you don't need to know all the dependicies. |
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| 18:39.06 | somiaj | hussar: what is your actual issue? What isn't working? |
| 18:40.15 | hussar | i've installed some packages a tutorial recommended for getting qemu running. Now I don't remember what those packages were and how the relate to all the commands I now see. I think some of the packages were unnecessary and want to delete them to get the minimal install and not gui tools that are unnecessary for what i'm doing |
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| 18:40.55 | somiaj | you can go look through the apt logs to see what was installed and remove them. |
| 18:41.13 | somiaj | as we first said, /var/log/apt has a history of all apt commands ran and what packages were installed as a result. |
| 18:42.14 | hussar | i see a related command in the logs. how do i find out which package created virt-manager? |
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| 18:42.44 | somiaj | hussar: most likely you installed virt-manager manually, but 'aptitude why vrit-manager' will let you know if/what package pulled it in |
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| 18:43.19 | hussar | virt-manager isn't anywhere in the history file i'm looking at |
| 18:44.19 | oxek | the history file gets rotated |
| 18:44.33 | oxek | look at the history.log.1.gz etc. |
| 18:44.52 | hussar | it says manually installed. I want to point out again that virt-manager isn't anywhere in the history file |
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| 18:45.12 | somiaj | logs are rotated, check the other ones. Also rotation will often delete really old logs, so it is good to get into habbit of backing up the logs |
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| 18:45.54 | hussar | this is already unreasonably complicated. this is something that should be built into apt or dpky |
| 18:45.57 | hussar | *dpkg |
| 18:46.02 | oxek | apt logs are rotated on a monthly basis, and keep 12 months |
| 18:46.03 | apt | ...but logs is already something else... |
| 18:46.25 | oxek | hussar: and it is built in. Clearly describe your issue and we might be able to help. |
| 18:46.40 | hussar | this is my first time using qemu or a vm on this machine i have no reason to think that virt-manage will be in another log file, but now I have to look through all of them |
| 18:47.18 | oxek | is your question "I did not tell apt to install virt-manager. What package installed virt-manager?" |
| 18:47.22 | sponix2ipfw | hussar: cat the logs and grep them |
| 18:47.34 | hussar | oxek: yes, that's basically it |
| 18:47.59 | oxek | hussar: 'aptitude why virt-manager' |
| 18:48.12 | sponix2ipfw | oxek: nice |
| 18:48.27 | hussar | not just virt-manager but some other commands too but let's start with that. At least I know which packages i've installed now but looking through logs to check is really a dumb system that should be changed |
| 18:49.07 | somiaj | hussar: The logs let you know when you installed stuff, dpkg -l will list what is actually installed. |
| 18:49.08 | oxek | hussar: is your question "Which packages did I explicitly tell apt to install on this system?" |
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| 18:50.26 | hussar | oxek: yes, and the commands they created |
| 18:51.10 | oxek | apt list --installed | grep -v automatic |
| 18:51.20 | hussar | i know there is a way to list manualy installed packages but that isn't the same as listing packages the user manualy installed |
| 18:51.41 | somiaj | hussar: except for the base system it is the same thing |
| 18:52.10 | oxek | hussar: that command shows you which ones are manually installed |
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| 18:52.18 | oxek | 'grep -v' negates the search |
| 18:53.20 | oxek | or if you have the tool, then run 'apt-mark showmanual' |
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| 18:58.10 | hussar | i ran that command, I don't believe it's accurate because it's thousands of lines long. It also doesn't give the related commands, or the order and time they were created. It's just a list of nonsense to me |
| 18:58.52 | oxek | 'apt-mark showmanual' is accurate |
| 18:59.24 | oxek | if you want a list of all binaries from all manually installed packages, use something like: apt-mark showmanual | apt-file list -f- | grep '/bin/' |
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| 18:59.47 | oxek | beware, it will be a long list |
| 18:59.48 | somiaj | the base system you installed with the installer gets marked as manual as well |
| 19:00.09 | flayer | i feel tired |
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| 19:00.52 | oxek | somiaj: true |
| 19:01.07 | hussar | that's better but still has a lot of the same problems. I installed this os from debian minimal and there are libs in that list I doubt were part of the base install |
| 19:01.11 | hussar | i'm giving up |
| 19:02.12 | hussar | i'll just reinstall every few months and write a list of relevant packages |
| 19:02.14 | somiaj | you are creating a problem where there is none. |
| 19:02.23 | hussar | somiaj: how? |
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| 19:03.12 | somiaj | you are getting all worked up instead of learning the tools that are there. part of the reason there are so many debian based distros is the quality of the package manager. |
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| 19:04.38 | somiaj | if you want to clearn your system of old libaries, deborphan may help. |
| 19:05.03 | somiaj | have you ever built software, often times building software causes one to manually install libaries |
| 19:05.26 | hussar | this isn't my first time having this problem. I've tried understanding the tools and there doesn't seem to be a way to solve it. No one in this chat has given a realistic solution either |
| 19:05.44 | somiaj | you haven't given us an actual problem, except the fact you don't like that there are just lots of packages. |
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| 19:08.39 | hussar | no, i've explained my problem a few times. I want to see the packages I've manually installed and the context they were installed so I have an idea of why I installed them. This means I want to thee time time and order in a manner that's readable. The best option I've gotten was reading through the logs, but this is complex, has no filtering options, and still doesn't give me their relevant |
| 19:08.41 | hussar | commands |
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| 19:11.28 | somiaj | keep backups of your logs, all of that is logged (as told), and the manual install flag is mostly useful (just the base system gets marked as manual installed by debootstrap) |
| 19:11.53 | oxek | I don't think there's a simple tool to do exactly what hussar wants |
| 19:12.06 | oxek | but it is doable with some data manipulation |
| 19:12.32 | oxek | even filtering out the base install packages, by using e.g. debootstrap to get a list of base packages and then excluding them from apt-mark showmanual |
| 19:12.43 | oxek | but that's not a simple tool, you'd have to learn things |
| 19:13.12 | somiaj | taking good notes is useful too, and book marking 'random guides' you follow |
| 19:15.04 | sponix2ipfw | oxek: probably not one simple tool, but you both have presented many options to do what he is asking, even if they aren't "fun" |
| 19:15.09 | hussar | oxek: that's what i think too. bookmarking random guides and looking through logs creates stress and time wasted. Reinstalling is a lot faster. It's suprising to me that this isn't something that's been addressed yet. You would think this would be a huge annoyance for debian devs |
| 19:16.18 | hussar | my first time running into this thing was when i installed a bunch of packages for header files and dependencies to build stuff from source. Then found myself totally confused about what packages I had installed and no longer needed |
| 19:16.53 | somiaj | with things like aptitude why packagename, apt show, looking at dependencies, and manual install packages, most people can figure out if something was manually installed or a dependency |
| 19:17.46 | somiaj | but this is why everything is logged, and if you have a good backup system of your logs, you can track down this info if you need it. |
| 19:17.46 | hussar | somiaj: finding out if something was manually installed is not the problem. I want to find ou what the 'thing' is in the first place |
| 19:18.06 | oxek | hussar: 'apt show PACKAGENAME' |
| 19:18.53 | oxek | hussar: the issue is that you're presenting a scenario that is not a problem for anyone but you - I am not exaggerating here, I've never seen anyone have the issue you describe. |
| 19:18.56 | karlpinc | hussar: Often, a good strategy is to build in a debootstrap-ped chroot. Then you delete the whole thing when you're done and don't worry about build dependences cluttering things up. YMMV. |
| 19:19.01 | oxek | hence a tool does not exist yet |
| 19:19.46 | hussar | oxek: that's not what i mean. I mean I want to find out what PACKAGENAME is based on the commands I have available and time I made the changes |
| 19:20.06 | oxek | example scenario - I find I have this command 'equivs-control' and have no idea what it is or where it came from |
| 19:20.07 | karlpinc | hussar: There might, possibly, be a way to leverage something like ansible to keep the history you're looking for. |
| 19:20.14 | oxek | so I do 'command -v equivs-control' |
| 19:20.27 | oxek | it tells me /usr/bin/equivs-control |
| 19:21.00 | oxek | I then do 'dpkg -S /usr/bin/equivs-control' |
| 19:21.05 | oxek | it tells me: equivs |
| 19:21.13 | oxek | I then do 'apt show equivs' |
| 19:21.18 | hussar | It's not a problem people often complain about because most user just install a bunch of stuff and never worry about it or care that gigabytes of space on their drive is being wasted by packages they used only once |
| 19:21.19 | oxek | that tells me what that package is |
| 19:21.20 | sponix2ipfw | karlpinc: umm, I do similar with my own applist.txt notes file. Has what I install, why, and so on - and also links to the guides I follow when doing it |
| 19:21.32 | oxek | if I want to know what else the package installed, I do 'dpkg -L equivs' |
| 19:22.01 | oxek | if I want to find out when I installed it, I do grep on logfiles for the package name, and it gives me a date |
| 19:22.11 | oxek | I look around the date what else I might have installed around that time |
| 19:22.15 | oxek | and that jogs my memory |
| 19:22.20 | karlpinc | sponix2ipfw: Yeah. A system logbook that is maintained by a human. |
| 19:22.42 | oxek | if I want to find out why some package is installed, I do 'aptitude why PACKAGENAME' |
| 19:22.44 | oxek | etc. |
| 19:22.50 | somiaj | hussar: I regurally go though what I have installed and clean up stuff. But I do it based off the package descriptiosn and what I use vs when it was installed. deborphan is nice to clean up libs |
| 19:22.52 | oxek | there are lots of tools, each doing a specific jobs |
| 19:22.59 | sponix2ipfw | karlpinc: I got use to that routine working in the Army server room... Had to list your apps, updates, patches and so on |
| 19:23.09 | karlpinc | oxek: Maybe I'm missing something. "command"? What package is that in? |
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| 19:23.28 | oxek | karlpinc: shell probably |
| 19:23.53 | oxek | "command is a shell builtin" |
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| 19:24.12 | oxek | you could use 'which' instead |
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| 19:25.02 | oxek | 'which firefox-esr' will give you /usr/bin/firefox-esr |
| 19:25.12 | karlpinc | oxek: Interesting. I've always used "which". |
| 19:25.14 | hussar | somiaj: That's hard for me to believe. The command to show manually installed packages that was suggested was thousands of lines. You regularly go through thousands of lines of packages carefuly to see what you actually use? |
| 19:25.27 | oxek | karlpinc: 'command -v' is preferable to 'which' |
| 19:25.42 | karlpinc | oxek: "command" must be posix, because it's in dash. |
| 19:25.47 | oxek | hussar: I regularly go through billions of lines as part of my day-job |
| 19:26.03 | oxek | karlpinc: it is posix |
| 19:26.15 | oxek | karlpinc: which is why it is preferable to 'which' |
| 19:26.28 | karlpinc | oxek: I was just going to ask that. :) |
| 19:26.34 | hussar | oxek: but there's no way you scan through those line manualy |
| 19:26.49 | oxek | hussar: that's why there are tools like grep, cut, awk, perl |
| 19:26.50 | somiaj | hussar: I use dpkg -l | less and go through all packages every so often, partly because it gets me use to what packages debian provides and I use. |
| 19:27.02 | sponix2ipfw | oxek: Yep... "grep" is golden |
| 19:27.28 | jelly | hussar, there are workaround tools like deborphan, and there's mk-build-deps command to be used to avoid apt-get build-dep leftovers |
| 19:27.48 | karlpinc | sponix2ipfw: (But perl is just "shiny"? ;-) |
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| 19:29.04 | ElDiabolo | Does anybody know a command line utility that turns input into a C literal? |
| 19:29.05 | sponix2ipfw | karlpinc: if I can't get it done with awk, grep, and sed --- It probably doesn't really need to be done anyway :P |
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| 19:32.23 | jelly | ElDiabolo, I want to say xxd but unsure about the options used |
| 19:33.02 | jelly | echo foo | xxd -i ? |
| 19:33.09 | karlpinc | I graviated to aptitude, once upon a time, instead of apt-get because aptitude removed dependent packages when you remove the depending package. Which has never helped with "suggests", but.... Since then I've not kept track of which apt tool does what in this regard. |
| 19:34.02 | jelly | I have 2000 "manually" and 3000 "automatically" installed packages on a 20+ years old installation. |
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| 19:35.32 | ElDiabolo | Does anybody know a command line utility that turns input into a C literal (got disconnected)? |
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| 19:36.32 | jelly | ElDiabolo, echo foo | xxd -i ? |
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| 19:38.33 | ElDiabolo | jelly, No, output should be a string literal, something like "\tfoo\n" |
| 19:39.03 | jelly | and what's the difference between a char[] in one format or the other |
| 19:40.42 | ElDiabolo | jelly, Readability. |
| 19:40.46 | jelly | (except, perhaps, length and some amount of legibility if your input is ASCII-alike) |
| 19:40.55 | jelly | right |
| 19:42.34 | ElDiabolo | jelly, I need to output a given makefile, so tabs are important and it should still be readable. This just looks like a "somebody already did it" situation. |
| 19:42.57 | ElDiabolo | I just can't find it :-/ |
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| 20:17.43 | c-c | Any ideas how to fix horizontal tearing in browser video? I attempted to reconf X11 by setting section "OutputClass" with option "TearFree" "true": https://gist.github.com/csmr/71b736ea471429a501f05aa06ac7e401 |
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| 20:18.33 | c-c | - This is stock LXDE and seems to have glamor. Not sure what to look into. |
| 20:20.11 | sney | what gpu do you have? you may be missing firmware, some will only work partially until those files are installed |
| 20:20.47 | c-c | - Also I suppose I should note I am using Intel CPU based with integrated "UHD 630" |
| 20:22.16 | sney | ok, do you have firmware-misc-nonfree installed? |
| 20:24.30 | c-c | sney: yes I do |
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| 20:28.00 | c-c | Perhaps of interest here is also to note that I do run steam games, and they do not seem to have horizontal tearing, even some 2016 games that are pretty open gl 3d titles |
| 20:28.11 | sney | ok, I was just about to ask something like that/ |
| 20:28.24 | sney | are all browsers affected? |
| 20:29.21 | c-c | sney: good point. This is firefox-esr, lets see how chromium fares... |
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| 20:38.45 | c-c | Strangely, firefox-esr seems to have horizontal tearing at random position on the video, chromium looks to have h-tearing around the same vertical level on the top 10% or so |
| 20:39.17 | c-c | - hard to find a clip like the one I originally noted it in (live stream from YLE areena) |
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| 20:42.44 | c-c | OK, found a nice test video for browser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfL_JkcEFbE - Horizontal tearing is visible in both Mozilla Firefox 68.12.0esr and Chromium 83.0.4103.116 built on Debian 10.4, running on Debian 10.5 |
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| 20:43.29 | NetTerminalGene | c-c: are you on wayland? |
| 20:43.49 | c-c | Chromium seems to have tearing near the top only at higher bitrates >1.5 mbps. Firefox seems to have tearing that jumps up and down, and even at low bitrate 480p has occasional tearing every 1-2 Hz. |
| 20:44.14 | NetTerminalGene | i have hd 630 gpu. it only tears on X |
| 20:44.19 | NetTerminalGene | it is ok on wayland |
| 20:45.06 | c-c | NetTerminalGene: I don't think so, I use lightdm and it should be X11, although not sure if wayland is somehow in it. |
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| 20:45.40 | c-c | NetTerminalGene: do you have specific intel conf for wayland? Possibly with "TearFree" conf? |
| 20:45.59 | NetTerminalGene | beside keep in mind that uhd 630 cpus released after buster |
| 20:46.22 | NetTerminalGene | c-c: no. i didn't need any configuration |
| 20:47.07 | NetTerminalGene | ok. i am not sure if i twas released after buster sorry |
| 20:47.24 | c-c | ok, for some reason my extra conf caused X11 not to start |
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| 20:52.23 | c-c | I was trying to figure out why, but there was nothing special in Xorg.0.log. Monitor found, "glamorgl" loads, the intel GPU detected, etc. I wonder if there is a package "SNA" or "TearFree" needs installed? Or maybe some typo here: https://gist.github.com/csmr/71b736ea471429a501f05aa06ac7e401 |
| 20:54.03 | c-c | oh no I think I just realized the problem, the double quotes from the original copypaste. |
| 20:55.12 | sney | let us know if it works, you shouldn't need to add any xorg config stuff for something this basic, and it may indicate a bug/regression somewhere |
| 20:55.44 | c-c | heh thats what I get for copypasting directly from internet forums |
| 20:55.51 | sney | also, what intel cpu is it specifically? if it's particularly new the firmware files in buster might not be sufficient. there's a newer update in buster-backports. |
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| 20:56.02 | somiaj | c-c: some intel cards run better with firmware-misc-nonfree (skylake and various generations do have non-free firmware) |
| 20:56.40 | somiaj | c-c: also use the 'modesetting' driver not the intel driver, the intel driver isn't as good in lots of situations (not having an xorg.conf would probably help out too, it is often not needed) |
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| 20:57.08 | oxek | sney: is it a good idea to run firmware from buster-backports without running a kernel from buster-backports? |
| 20:57.27 | NetTerminalGene | somiaj: how can you say some cards run better with nonfree firmware? |
| 20:57.31 | somiaj | oxek: It won't hurt things, if the kernel knows about the newer firmware can depend on the driver. |
| 20:57.31 | NetTerminalGene | it is optional |
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| 20:58.09 | oxek | somiaj: hmm, I thought there might have been cases where an updated firmware requires an updated kernel |
| 20:58.10 | NetTerminalGene | you don't need to install nonfree firmware |
| 20:58.53 | somiaj | oxek: the older kernel might not know of the newer firmware files (they are often foo-24, foo-25, foo-26, older kernels don't know to look for newer firmware |
| 20:59.12 | somiaj | you may not need the firmware, but many cards will preform better using it |
| 20:59.28 | oxek | oh, so newer firmware packages always contain all the older versions of firmware too? |
| 20:59.37 | somiaj | oxek: but it also depends on the actual hardware what firmware files it needs/looks for. |
| 20:59.40 | somiaj | oxek: correct |
| 20:59.45 | oxek | then it should be safe |
| 21:00.17 | somiaj | correct, you just may not get any advantage unless you also have a newer kernel (Depending on hardawre) |
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| 21:00.52 | sney | firmware packages are built from the contents of https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git , some stuff may be overwritten occasionally but in general, more and more blackbox firmware blobs get added every week :/ |
| 21:00.55 | oxek | I was thinking of the case where AMD cpus required a fixed firmware to boot, and then if you updated the firmware again without updating the kernel, the kernel would suddenly not find any firmware files (because it's not aware of the newer ones) and the machine won't boot (because the cpu microcode is not updated) |
| 21:01.31 | sney | cpu microcode is a different animal. this is closed source driver components, *usually* not something required to boot the system. |
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| 21:02.12 | oxek | don't all the firmware-sth-nonfree packages pull in cpu microcode? |
| 21:02.27 | somiaj | no cpu micrcode is in a different package |
| 21:02.30 | somiaj | !microcode |
| 21:02.30 | dpkg | Microcode are instructions/structures for implementing high-level machine code within processors. The Linux kernel can load updated microcode on most x86 processors. Microcode patches for Intel and AMD64 CPUs are packaged for Debian as intel-microcode and amd64-microcode respectively; installing the relevant package is recommended to ensure system stability. Ask me about <non-free sources>. http://wiki.debian.org/Microcode |
| 21:02.42 | sney | intel-microcode and amd64-microcode are packaged separately, I don't remember the exact dependency relationships |
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| 21:03.22 | oxek | firmware-linux-nonfree is the one I thought of, that one has those as a recommends |
| 21:03.41 | oxek | and 'firmware-linux' itself depends onf firmware-linux-nonfree |
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| 21:04.38 | sney | somiaj: fyi, I updated the intel-gfx factoid and added an intel-gfx firmware factoid as well. |
| 21:04.48 | sney | the former was last updated in 2010! |
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| 21:11.24 | c-c | somiaj: Ok, not sure what modesetting driver is, but I'll look into it. |
| 21:11.44 | c-c | My conf works now but Xorg.0.log states that: 5.913] (WW) modeset(0): Option "TearFree" is not used |
| 21:12.13 | sney | depending on where you found that option documented, it may be driver-specific or outdated |
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| 21:13.51 | c-c | also, no mentio of SNA, while "DRI3" is mentioned. Makes me guess its not a good conf. |
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| 21:14.48 | sney | not all options work with all drivers |
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| 21:15.08 | sney | if that was something from a forum post about e.g. nvidia, it's probably not something the intel driver understands |
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| 21:16.41 | c-c | somiaj etc Do you think this post still applies correctly for "modesetting" driver? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=128974#p620202 |
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| 21:19.35 | johnjay | can you apt get install with debian bullseye? |
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| 21:20.02 | sney | yes, all debian versions have apt-get. |
| 21:20.16 | johnjay | ok good. i know they discontinue repos after a certain time |
| 21:20.22 | johnjay | so wasn't sure about testing |
| 21:20.23 | sney | (before someone says it: I'm sure there are exceptions from the 90s) |
| 21:20.40 | greycat | *blink* ... OK, now you're just confusing me |
| 21:21.06 | greycat | johnjay: what are you trying to do? |
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| 21:21.28 | johnjay | setup a deb installer for a library. guy said to try it on bullseye after buster which i have |
| 21:21.34 | johnjay | er deb file |
| 21:21.48 | sney | you're trying to make a package? |
| 21:22.02 | johnjay | yes. so i need debbuild stuff as well as build-essential etc |
| 21:22.04 | sney | !nmg |
| 21:22.04 | dpkg | The packaging tutorial (https://deb.li/QYyI) and the New Maintainer's Guide (https://deb.li/3DiDA) are good places to start learning about Debian packaging. You should also ask me about <devref> and <policy> to understand how packages should be maintained and how they should interact with each other. Ask me about <package basics>, <mentors>, <best practices> <build without helper>. https://www.debian.org/devel/ |
| 21:22.06 | johnjay | and idk if it's on the dvd-1 |
| 21:22.18 | sney | read those first two links, they will clarify things for you. |
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| 21:22.26 | alex11 | the security repo in bullseye is a different url but i think it probably doesn't even exist yet so it's not relevant until it becomes stable |
| 21:22.36 | johnjay | ok |
| 21:22.47 | sney | alex11: yes, testing security is currently empty and will be until after the freeze |
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| 21:30.12 | c-c | BTW is it true Debian needs more devs? |
| 21:31.09 | sney | afaict it isn't as dire as some recent blog coverage made it sound, but all debian developers and maintainers do their work on a volunteer basis |
| 21:31.17 | sney | so there's always room for more |
| 21:31.56 | sney | !wnpp |
| 21:31.56 | dpkg | For information on packages which are not in Debian but you think should be, check the Work-Needing and Prospective Packages list at http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp (refinable list at http://wnpp.debian.net/). Use wnpp-alert (from the <devscripts> package) to see what packages you are using that are in need of help. |
| 21:33.53 | somiaj | c-c: in what sense? In general the modesetting driver is the prefered and one that often works better. There are some generations of intel cards that do work better with the old intel driver (though this is less and less since 2016), as for the particular issues in that thread, it depends a lot on the exact intel gpu (such as if you get a performance increase for the non-free firmware depends on exactly |
| 21:33.59 | somiaj | which generation of intel gpu being used) |
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| 21:34.31 | somiaj | c-c: I personally suggest people switch to the modesetting driver, and at least try it out. You can always switch back if you have a card that doens't work as well with it. |
| 21:34.56 | somiaj | c-c: users making good bug reports, and providing patches is also very helpful beyond matainers and devs. |
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| 21:35.50 | somiaj | though those users should run testing (At least on a development box) to help improve the quality of packages by reporting (and fixing if they can) bugs |
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| 21:37.07 | oxek | debian could easily get more devs/maintainers if they used github or similar for all their pull requests, issue tracking etc. |
| 21:39.55 | c-c | Referring to https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/10/debian_project_address/ |
| 21:40.15 | jhutchins | oxek: Do you think that they don't use some form of CVS? |
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| 21:41.06 | jhutchins | oxek: One issue is that they are not all employees of a single, centralized company. They don't have a corporate imposed common platform. |
| 21:41.29 | c-c | If I interpret Carter's slide correctly, he thinks Debian project could use a 1000 devs more. |
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| 21:44.39 | c-c | somiaj: I see. There's quite confusing and conflicting info on this topic. Seems one doesn't need to fiddle with drivers if modern intel integrated GPU. And that implies modesetting with buster. |
| 21:44.53 | sney | debian *does* use salsa, which is a gitlab instance, for many many packages' version/source control. issue tracking already has a good home at the debian BTS. |
| 21:45.29 | sney | making some big sweeping infrastructure change to "get more devs/maintainers" would, in the real world, more likely start a flame war bigger than the systemd one. |
| 21:47.31 | jhutchins | A sudden broad increase in developers would likely cause a lot of chaos and a lot of submissions that didn't meet the standards and conventios that have been established. |
| 21:47.43 | alex11 | ^ this |
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| 21:48.17 | sney | and the help debian needs is on the lower levels. solving small-scale problems, maintaining packages with userbases in the 1000s, little un-glamorous stuff. not coming in as a manager and shaking things up or whatever |
| 21:48.44 | jhutchins | Again, since there's no central controlling corporation, it's a lot harder to impose those standards and conventions. |
| 21:49.30 | jhutchins | This is probably off topic for this channel. |
| 21:49.32 | sney | some day I'll finish learning C and make myself truly useful |
| 21:49.37 | sney | it's borderline, I agre |
| 21:50.10 | jhutchins | sney: There are projects in things like ruby and perl and python that need work. |
| 21:50.26 | c-c | C is easy to learn, but its hard to learn the solutions using it to use it right |
| 21:51.07 | c-c | jhutchins: can you name a project in ruby that needs work? |
| 21:51.13 | sney | I'm ok at python but I don't like it very much, so I wouldn't want to be debugging in it. I like the lower level technical stuff. just need to get over the hump. |
| 21:51.33 | c-c | - I could have a look if there's a corner I could help with |
| 21:51.46 | dvs | sney, I don't like Python either. |
| 21:51.51 | sney | I believe debian has a "ruby team" that is a general umbrella of all of the ruby packages |
| 21:51.55 | jhutchins | I learned to code in six languages, but never found any useful work to do with them. |
| 21:52.21 | jhutchins | c-c: No, can't name a project. |
| 21:52.36 | c-c | I write anything and have done it for living for last 20 yeasr, but it does usually take months of homework first |
| 21:53.18 | jhutchins | c-c: That wnpp page would be a good place to start. |
| 21:53.33 | c-c | - I wonder how rust is effecting Debian codebase, if at all. Its the new low level fancy thing. |
| 21:53.35 | jhutchins | sney: Do you know of a "bounties" page for Debian? |
| 21:53.44 | c-c | jhutchins: ok thanks for the lead B] |
| 21:53.51 | sney | nope, I usually just point people to wnpp |
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| 21:54.42 | somiaj | c-c: the basic idea is due to kms (kernel mode setting) drivers are moving away from the old format of driver + xorg driver, to a kms standard, and the modesetting driver is the driver that uses kms and just speaks directly to the driver to implment the features. |
| 21:55.07 | somiaj | c-c: so just as with lots of things open source, you see a lot of the development cycle, but the modesetting is getting fairly well worked out and standard these days |
| 21:58.11 | somiaj | c-c: this also means the same driver being used at boot (in the tty consoles) is the same being used in xorg, so switching thigns are smoother and no more need for framebuffers |
| 21:58.50 | somiaj | c-c: from y limited view point, getting all the requirements to build with rust into debian has been a bit of a pain. |
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| 22:03.09 | c-c | somiaj: well I've not much to give there, other than should complete homework on Rust, Rust ABI and shared libs on linux. Would be 3leet. |
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| 22:05.23 | sney | debian doesn't usually go all-in on new popular languages right away. history has shown that many of them are fads. maybe this one isn't, but it's still to early to tell; support is available, and we can wait and see about the rest |
| 22:05.54 | dvs | sney, I'm glad that they are taking on Kotlin already. |
| 22:07.07 | sney | never even heard of that one. oh, another javoid, like there weren't enough of those |
| 22:07.30 | somiaj | debian also tries to ensure that we can put the build system into debian and follow debian policy. So many thigns are just 'download the current version from the internet and clober your system, pip/gem/go/all do that, it is annoying) |
| 22:07.37 | dvs | Another? It's the only one I know of |
| 22:07.54 | sney | there are a lot of jvm-languages-that-are-not-java |
| 22:08.03 | sney | I mentally group this with those |
| 22:08.51 | sney | somiaj: indeed, that's another wrinkle. maybe it's fine for the docker ecosystem (fsvo fine) but not for an integrated OS designed around providing stability. |
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| 22:13.53 | c-c | sney: rust needs a standard effort, then one could adopt it with calm mind |
| 22:14.18 | c-c | *standardization *who knows maybe they started during my holiday |
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| 22:15.50 | c-c | Kotlin looks like java growing up. Personally I wouldn't start a java project using java when kotlin is available. Not sure about kotlins standardization effort but I bet its among the most popular languages in the World, so in that context a good bet for projects. |
| 22:16.35 | c-c | And damn is plain java ever old school imperative verbose clunk 8) |
| 22:17.25 | c-c | Anyway, I'm looking at https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBullseye and at the calendar and wondering if Bullseye could be a daily driver in September? Any comments? |
| 22:17.25 | dvs | c-c, actually, the last I've heard, Kotlin is about #59 on the list of current popular languages |
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| 22:19.28 | somiaj | languages are like debian derivatives, can't keep up with them all |
| 22:20.00 | sney | bullseye is a daily driver right now, depending on your needs |
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| 22:21.09 | b1ack0p | where can i get this wallpaper? https://external-preview.redd.it/jN0ou60FwfE0fuVEPh-fxZUZ2h9NHoH14RKaOV3wq3M.jpg?auto=webp&s=d767c5c8a8a67fa54c6b4198416a0e89a293224e |
| 22:21.12 | dvs | starts Kebian |
| 22:21.14 | sney | the worst parts of the python transition are over, and while updates are pretty frequent, I'd say it's more stable than some distros' actual releases. |
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| 22:21.34 | c-c | dvs: kotlin is pretty android and that just might take it far |
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| 22:21.51 | dvs | hopes |
| 22:22.52 | somiaj | Are there any other major transitions planned, or just mostly normal transitions until the freeze at the start of next year? |
| 22:23.23 | sney | b1ack0p: that one looks like it might be from jessie? the previous debian wallpapers can be found through here https://wiki.debian.org/DebianArt/Themes, you'll need to click around some, but they're generally available. (also packaged in desktop-base for the given release) |
| 22:23.49 | sney | all of the upcoming translations I saw on the list were auto-something |
| 22:23.58 | sney | transitions, even |
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| 22:27.54 | b1ack0p | sney: looks like stretch : https://wiki.debian.org/DebianArt/Themes/softWaves |
| 22:27.57 | b1ack0p | but in blue |
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| 22:29.04 | sney | yes, looks the same. there's an extra blue tint on the screen in that photo. laptop screens don't photograph well. |
| 22:29.15 | sney | you could probably tweak the color balance in gimp and make it look fairly similar |
| 22:29.54 | b1ack0p | so it is green looks like blue on the picture :p |
| 22:30.33 | sney | I would say the softwaves image is blue-green, and the photo made it look more blue |
| 22:30.54 | b1ack0p | i see |
| 22:30.56 | b1ack0p | thanks |
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| 23:07.38 | hussar | wow windows has become the biggest spyware ecosystem ever |
| 23:08.09 | hussar | i just booted it in qemu and omg it won't even let you install without giving your email or phone number |
| 23:08.41 | sney | they used to let you skip that, or "enter later" or whatever |
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| 23:10.35 | hussar | next month i'm deleting my windows partition. The surveillance is actually scary |
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| 23:46.35 | johnjay | i find it funny if there's no hard disk the debian installer doesn't say error no hard disk. it just says there was a problem copying a file |
| 23:47.40 | nvz | johnjay: wouldn't want to jump to any hasty conclusions these days.. for all anyone knows your hard disk may not identify as a hard disk |
| 23:48.10 | johnjay | that's... weird. like ssd? |
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| 23:48.30 | nvz | well yes, but I was more making a joke about the social climate |
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| 23:52.43 | johnjay | heh. i don't remember being this bad at qemu-fu |
| 23:54.50 | johnjay | is the debian installer for bullseye alpha 2 broken? |
| 23:55.10 | johnjay | seems to be this bug: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=865015 |
| 23:55.11 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/865015 in live-installer (closed): «debian-installer: Live installers are unable to start, "There was a problem reading data from the CD-ROM"»; severity: grave; opened: 2017-06-18; last modified: 2017-07-31. |
| 23:55.12 | nvz | that might be a question for another network and channel |
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| 23:55.49 | dvs | !debian-next |
| 23:55.49 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 23:56.12 | nvz | well there may be a more appropriate one considering we're talking about the installer |
